PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | Philadelphia Eagles spring wrap-up: What did we learn about Vic Fangio, Nick Sirianni and co.?

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

With the entirety of the Eagles’ spring football activities now behind us, we take stock of the things we learned. Have the Eagles found some excitement in the secondary? Do they have a set projected right guard in Tyler Steen? Is the offense really going to be THAT different? And how does Jalen Hurts look?Zach Berman and Bo Wulf welcome you back to the swing of things with a Monday show to tell you what they think they learned over the past few months. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

But Wolf, Zach Berman, feeling a little bit happier than Vic Fangio looks in that picture on the thumbnail as we prepare to take a little bit of a step back, Zach, and, you know, bird's eye view on the big lessons that we learned this spring about Eagles. How you doing? How was your weekend? Doing well. Happy to be here. excited for the show. I was remarking that, you know, so the Friday show, the headline was school. Best show in a long time. I agree with the YouTube comment. Thank you to Rich. Handsome Rich for stepping out. Yeah, Richard's great, but we did miss you. But schools out. for the summer right so so typically like the past you know decade plus of my even confused for you the the past decade plus of my life it's like it's like go away you got you know five weeks six weeks until training camp returns that's just like last summer when you went away and instead

relaxing wrote uh what 800000 word book 87000 but yeah but um you know this is this is we're on daily every day so uh we're there's There's not much of a change to our cadence of the fact that we're not at the team facility, but this is the only time of the year in the NFL where it's the dead time, right? There's like a week after the Super Bowl, but even then there's stuff going on.

This is a dead time. Like we worked for the Eagles at one point. The facility's closed for a good chunk of this period. People get away. It's summer Fridays. Yeah, this is the quiet time of year. So this is also a chance for us to kind of, uh, also by the way, the whole office is not closed, just the football operations. Football operations. I'm sorry. Football operations. We didn't get quite the quite, quite that level of, sure. But the football side of the building is closed. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, well, we press on anyway and we got to get one percent better every day. Oh, hopefully more than one percent better every single day. Yes. More than one percent every single day. Yes. Although with compound interest, one percent better is pretty good by the end of three. You love that.

that compound interest. Who doesn't? I don't know. Babies? I mean, I think the concept of compound interest would appeal to anybody. I don't think it would appeal to babies. Okay. Maybe the benefits, but not the concept of it. Sure.

The concept, okay. The benefits of it should appeal to everybody. Anyways, this is, as TN says, the real non-playing season. The NPL. Yep. All right. Well, you want to get right into it, Zach? The 10 big lesson.

Why do you say NPO? NPS? Yeah, that's part of the bit, is that it's not accurate and never has been accurate. Yes. Okay. But that's okay. Yep. Okay. I'll start, if you want, these 10 big takeaways that we have of the things that we learned about the Eagles.

If there's off-season, I think, and this is a popular one, you know, this is not, not much of this is going to be breaking news, right? We've discussed many of these things over the past couple weeks, but in order to wrap these things up. I think we learned that this is Kellan Moore's offense, right? And there was a lot of obfuscation about that heading into like the offseason. Nick Siriani said in that press conference that he was going to take a step back, but we didn't know this is an offensive coach. This is a guy who has had his hands in, you know, every offensive meeting over the past two, three years. Would he be willing to take a step back?

and everything that we saw on the field, everything that we heard behind the scenes, everything that, you know, Jalen Hertz said on the podium, and maybe he's overstating 95% of the offense is different, but we have learned nothing to tell us that this is not Kellyn Moore's show. This is his offense that he is installing.

There's maybe some, you know, DNA carryover, but some of the terminology is different. And, you know, to be fair, maybe some of the old stuff that they're keeping, that is not the stuff that we saw in the spring. they'll put that in because they know it will be easier in the summer. But, like, we didn't know how much of that was going to be the case. And, you know, you hear about Nick Siriani spending time in defensive meetings and stuff like that.

He is letting this be Kellymour's offense. I don't know how that's going to play out. It seemed like fits and starts at this point of the offseason. But the fact that it is Kellymour's offense, I think, is significant news. Well, said. Now, as part of that, do you feel like you have a sense of this? offense yet. Other than the pre-snap motion that we're seeing at a higher rate than before, do you feel like we're not really going to see what this offense is until a few weeks in the

training camp, maybe week one? Or can you tell the differences schematically to this point? I mean, I think you see some differences. First of all, it's, you know, it's just a passing camp, right? They are installing stuff. Like, you know, Devante Smith wasn't there every day that we were there. There's, there are moving parts. I don't think we're going to see what the real offense is. until the regular season starts. Like, you know, Nick Siriani loves to play the card of like, we've got a tricks up our sleeve. We're not going to show anything in the preseason or even training camp, right?

I think we'll see some of the like structural tent poles of the things that they care about in the offseason. But even like seeing guys in motion this spring doesn't mean that we know how often they're going to have motion. We know that it will be more than last year, right? But I don't think that you can tell much about what the, offense looks like just yet i i would agree with you there and one thing that that you know a conclusion if i'm trying to make a conclusion from this is i i think a j brown's going to be like a real high volume receiver now how that manifests itself or it might just be the the nature of of camp but there were a lot of like short intermediate patterns right and i'm curious if if if that is the

case if there's going to be more of an emphasis on AJ in the middle of the field, AJ, yards after the catch, using that part of AJ's game as opposed to more of the vertical element to the offense. Yeah, that's one where I feel like it's how camp went. Yeah. And it's also not, like those are not Jill and Hertz's favorite throws. Sure. Right.

Like at some point, they're going to let Jailen Hertz do the things that he likes to do best, right? And so you work on that stuff now, but not to say that AJ Brown won't be. a volume receiver but I feel like the the volume with which he was targeted you know within the 10 yards of the line of scrimbage this spring is probably not indicative of how he'll be used I could be wrong sure yeah so I will go to the next one you I have I have two kind of branching off that so but to stay on on this theme is I think and you have a story coming out on all pH I's going to have a bunch of these yeah so I'm actually gonna split it up in the two parts okay right um and I appreciate

you teasing that. Go to all p-h-l-y.com. I have I have 25 things here and so there will be part one and then part two. Now we're going to do 1213 or 1312? I was actually thinking can I squeeze five more out of this and make it three parts, you know, 10, 10, 10. 10, 10, like the old Andy Reed practice. Jinks, as my son would say. Did you, were you a jinks guy back in the day? Yeah, we said jinks, but only if we said it at the exact same time, unlike what you and I just did. There was an office scene where they did the buy me the Coke jinks and they actually, the soda machine was out of Coke and they had to go to the store to actually get it before Jim could start talking.

Great reference. Yes. Big office fan. We know. Okay. So Jan 1 Hertz has some, has work to do in this offense. And I don't say that in like an alarmist kind of way. I just mean sometimes when you have a quarterback

entering year five, which Jalen Hertz is here, right? Part of the appeal is, all right, he's been here for X amount of, you know, he started, this is his fourth year starting, fourth year with his head coach, there's like a sophistication and a mastery to it. Because they have a new offensive coordinator, because they have a new offensive scheme, Jalen said in the spring, early in the spring that he's in sponge mode, doubt that that was the term that he used, sponge mode. And I think you can see that there is an adjustment for him here.

And he said last week what he's trying to do is he's trying to pick parts of the offense that he can make his, right? But part of the appeal, or I shouldn't say the appeal, part of like an appeal to Jalen in college early in the NFL is that he's adjusted to different schemes. But we don't know yet if this is a scheme that maximizes his skill set. Certainly in camp, it wasn't always crisp. We spoke about interceptions. We spoke about incompletions.

This was not one of these camps where everything was kind of lights out from the quarterback. And that's not a concern. I used the example on the show last week. I used it on Anthony's show this morning. It's like reading a rough draft of a story, right? That's essentially what this camp was about installation more than evaluation, I think, for the Eagles. If everything was coming back, it would be more about evaluation. But really, they're trying to install this for everyone.

The biggest change is on jail than for everyone else, right? We heard Jordan Milata say last week that for the offensive line, it's not a big adjustment, right? And he has the same position. Yeah, he has the same position coach. There's only so many ways to fit a block, right? Same run game coordinator. Exactly.

I mean, Jason Kelsey said on his podcast, that he never read a playbook after a certain. amount, you know, he wants to visually do it. So, but for the quarterback, J.O.N has a new scheme. He's a new quarterback's coach. He's a new offensive coordinator. Whether it's terminology, the routes run, what's expected of him. This is different.

And the question I have for you as a part of this is, is do you think this is the type of thing where mid-October, one of the storylines is, well, you know, jail need to adjust to this offense and he's just kind of finding his rhythm? Absolutely. interesting. Absolutely. You mean, you said that part of the appeal of Jalen Hertz is that he's adjusted to a lot of different offenses over the course of his career. But that's because he's had to.

And we make this point all the time. The only year in the past, what, eight years that he's had the same offensive scheme and play caller two years in a row. He went to the Super Bowl and had the best year. Well, that year. Right. And, you know, he also had AJ Brown that year. And the roster was loaded. But the roster was loaded last year, too, and he wasn't as good.

I think that's a real expectation that it's going to take some time for this offense to be functioning at the highest level. Now, in theory, they have enough talent so that you can overcome those fits and starts. You know, it's like you guys were talking about the NBA finals game last night, right? Like the Celtics didn't play a great game, but they were so talented that they were, you know, they still won pretty handily, right? Like the hope is that on offense, they should still be, you know, a top quartile offense. But I think the expectation probably is that they have to get better as. as the year goes on. Yeah, I just, I just wonder if it's,

if it's going to be excuse mode in October or if it's going to be, man, he looks really good in this system. And just imagine what he, he looks like come December when he's had, you know, three, four months into it. I do think with the type of talent that they have, a wide receiver, with the type of offensive line that they have, with, with Sequin, as you just mentioned, the, there should just be our guys are,

better than your guys element to this where it doesn't get over complicated but 2020 still now Carson did not play well that year right but there there was a lot going on there in terms of trying to figure out what that offense was plus COVID you know he feels could not overcome sure sure so um and then and then the other thing that I'm I'm curious about uh is do you think jalen looks at this and like he's he's happy about this or do you think jellon says I was almost the MVP in that offense before, right? Like, we could have tinkered with it, but, you know, did we really need to reinvent the system? I mean, the joke that I want to make is that he's happy that he has to deal with Nick Sirianney less, right?

I mean, after and somebody said it in the chat. Yeah, we briefly talked about that. Yeah, we briefly talked about that. Are we not making big enough deal out of this? I think that he is probably, I mean, it's not like he fell in the sword for Brian Johnson either. Sure. Like, he understood that the offense was not giving him enough answers last. year. I think he's excited about, I would guess. I don't want to speak for him, but I would imagine that he's excited about the possibility of some more creative solutions on offense. Like, I mean, the scheme was bad last year. And it wasn't just stagnant. It was like, you know, they had no answers against the blitz. Like, there was not, like the routes were not speaking to each other, right? He was not throwing to open receivers. I think, I would imagine that he is hopeful, but I can't, I can't speak for him. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think he probably felt there need to be a change too. But I don't know. I mean, I think Jalen is at a point where he probably feels there's a certain way to maximize his ability. And this offense is probably, I don't say this in like a condescending way. But this offense is probably designed to maximize Kellyn Moore. Right? Like I think Kellan Moore is very, you know, this is, this is Kellyn Moore being like, all right, this is your baby. You do this.

It's not you fix jailing. It's you put your wizardry. Oh, I'm sorry, wizardry. Am I pronouncing it correctly? Wizardry at work here. And. Yeah, but he's doing that with jail in mind. Sure.

But like we talked about this during one of the tick Zach Bose a few weeks ago. That was my favorite part of last episode on Friday, by the way, was it felt like I don't know why. but I enjoyed how uncomfortable you were saying the word toe at the end of the episode. You're like very hesitant about saying the word toe. I don't know if I subconsciously thought you'd make fun of me in some way. But no, that like I don't see an outcome where Callen Moore is here in 2025. Or I shouldn't say don't see an outcome. I put there's a better chance of not that Kellan Moore is not here in 2025.

And the reason I say that is I think if the Eagles are really good, Kellan Moore's going somewhere else. He interviewed for what, two head coaching jobs is past stuff? Or he's interviewed for two head coaching jobs? Not last, not this office in two years. Yeah. And if they underachieve,

like everything's cleaned out. So unless, I think that's a little bit overstated. Okay. I hear that. I hear that. I understand that like the odds are he's not going to be here for three years. Sure.

The idea that it's like one and done for sure. I don't know. There's like, what if there are only five openings? And the Eagles go to the Super Bowl and teams don't want to, wait or like what if he is not a good interviewer like I don't know I just think like that he's definitely gone if they're good there's also a middle ground where they're good enough but

they don't like the world on fire I think this I would I don't think that it's definite I think it's like I think it's still even 50 50 that he's that he's here next year or he could be like Ben Johnson and right you know just he wants to be selective right you know if if if if a bad organization is the only one willing to offer him maybe he doesn't want that I do think if they're really good, then Jeffrey's going to do everything he kind of keep, like, will incentivize him being selective. But real quick, because you mentioned that in the chat, and we briefly spoke about it on Thursday's show, but Thursday show was packed, obviously, between the Lori News, the staff change or

the front office changes. My read on Jayland's answer is that it's more the way Jayland tries to be with the media. It's more like anti-media, for lack of a better term, than anti-Nick. Like, I think Jalen purposely doesn't want to like, he tries to be a certain way there. So is there a question that would get an answer out of him that would reflect well on Nick Siriani? Can you just, if the question at the press conference was just, what's your favorite thing about Nick? What would he say? Like, well, that's a good point.

there because because the second part of what I was going to say is there is though there's a pattern to this and he's for someone who says like how everything he does is is with intention yeah and and that he he really wants to be like smarter than you um you need to know the way this is going to be interpreted right just like I think back to the Tampa game last year his response to the questions about next future think back to the Seattle situation that we talked about where where like he would not that one's actually worse yeah um so it sometimes like he he tries so hard to and just to catch up the seattle one is when they you know they throw that uh the interception the interception down the red sideline and a j brown let comes out like two weeks later and says like that that was our yeah our

audible me and jalen and jailin like let's nick twist in the wind and brian johnson too and doesn't never talk to that like i know that he doesn't he doesn't want to give anything away yeah But yeah. And I know that he's, he is acting or actually is not paying attention to what the like the narratives are. But I mean, come on. Yeah.

That's like that's leadership, right? 100%. And and that's where I think, I think Jalen tries so hard to, uh, you guys are rat poison or I don't need this. You know, you know,

um, I had a purpose before before anyone had an opinion. Like try so hard to be above anything else that, he doesn't, I use the example today on Anthony's show that when you have a layup, you don't need to kick it out for a half-court shot, right? Just take the layup. That's the easiest spring question. What does this say about Nick Siriani?

And I don't want people just to give platitudes, right? But it's like you say, just say one thing nice about your head coach, right? You don't need to give cliche central. Just say one nice thing about your head coach. Now, to be in his defense, like there was, you know, there's another layup in that press conference, another softball where it's like, like, what have you seen from Paris Campbell and John Ross? He's like, they've been fine.

Like, you know, he doesn't take that opportunity to just gas the guy up to gas him up. So like that context matters, right? He's not just going to be flowery in those press conferences for the sake of it. But because it is part of a larger pattern specifically with Nick, it's at least, you know, makes your eyebrows raise. He likes to gas up the, um, the jammer. on Hertz narrative, right? He likes to guess up like, I'm so tough. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a better term. The jail and heart's myth making. He, he will never pass up a chance to like,

to talk about how, how like, rare breed he is, right? But he's not, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's not building up the myth making for those around him either. Interesting. That's, I think that's well said. Well, speaking of myth making and things that deserve the plot. I'll tell you about Rocket Money, because Rocket Money is saving me money and they can save you money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. With Rocket Money, I have full control over my subscriptions and a clear view of my expenses. I can see all of my subscriptions in one place, and if I see something I don't want,

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Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash p.hly. That's rocketmoney.com slash p.hly, rocketmoney.com slash p.hly. I'm going to read to you a DM from a listener that came a few days ago. ZB just tried Alupup for the first time today. Strawberry vanilla. It is awesome.

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The discount only applies to one-time orders, not to subscription orders. Alipop is sold online at drinkaup.com or Amazon, and it's available in almost 30,000 retailers nationwide, including Wawa, Target, Sprouts, Wegman ShopRite, and GoPuff. All right, my number two takeaway. Can we snake this just because my next takeaway is kind of based off of your first one there. And that is Nick is... A question you ask when a plumber comes to your house. Can we snake this?

Nick's very much the CEO coach. And I think he's leaning into this. You asked him a question about coaching up young players the other day. It was a good question. And he answered the phrase he used, and this is going to be one. we're going to hear often is when I'm able to have a have kind of a broad view of everything like a 30,000 foot view. I think we're going to hear that term a lot, 30,000 foot view. That specific length, you think?

30,000, yeah, I would imagine. You think you'll move around? You think sometimes it's 20. Yeah, I don't know altitude too well. Is there a point where it's too high to fly? Yeah, no, I think that 30,000 foot views is the phrase he's going to use. So I bring that up as a way of saying, like, you know, I think the question that from the offseason, the press comments question that most people think about this offseason, it was Tim

McManus's at the opening. What you say you do here? Yeah, exactly. And I think what the answer is going to be for Nick is like being in charge of everything, is having this team is his job is going to be Monday to Friday or I should say Monday to Saturday, then the game manager on Sunday, but almost like the chief morale officer, the leader of the team. And I think you're going to hear in his answers during this season, similar sentiments to that.

The benefit of him popping in to the defensive meeting room, the benefit of him talking with here. This is also from his quote. He was asked how he allocates his time. He says, I like going sitting in a defensive ed meeting running by, I'm sorry, run by Coach Washburn. And BG's in there and seeing how connected those guys are. And I think you're going to see a lot of references throughout this season to how he is leaning into being the head coach of the entire team. That he's not just installing the offensive game plan.

He's not just putting this game plan together, but that he's overseeing everything. You'll still see him. You'll probably make references to what he's doing with the special teams. He'll make references to specific things with different position groups. And so I think Nick's going to lean into being the CEO coach, and we're already seeing that. Do you think that Jeffrey Lurie would have hired Nick Siriani or would hire Nick Siriani in someone like him in the next cycle if he was pitching himself that way? Do I think he would have hired him then? If Nick, if Jeffery knew and, you know, just divorce, you know, taking it at the last two years that he was hiring Nick Siriani,

to be the CEO head coach and not be involved in the offense. Do you think that is his best skill set? Do you think that is part of what attracted Jeffrey Lurit to him? Or do you think that this is just making the most out of the way things have shaken out? Good question. I think Jeffrey, when he hires a coach, looks for something specific that he thinks the team needs at that time. And it's often run counter to what the coach was before.

And I think a big thing Jeffrey wanted with Nick or at that time, was a teacher, was like a younger energetic coaching staff. Right. And so I don't think... For where they were in their cycle at that point. Exactly. So I don't think he necessarily hired Nick for Nick's offensive. Like Nick likes to say, he hired for his offensive mind.

I think that might have been part of it. But I think it's certain... I think it was more Nick's personality. And the emphasis on teaching and the youth, I think that's what he tried to look for after the Peterson era. Just like the Peterson era, I think they wanted more of like... like the NFL, you know, they had a staff full of former players, right? They, they had, it was, you talked about the emotional intelligence,

someone who understood the players' perspective. And so I think that if, if Jeffrey had a coaching, if Nick wasn't on staff and he was just hiring a coach for this season, I don't think he would hire Nick. Right, right. Yeah, to answer your question, I think what he would look for is someone who could really maximize the talent on the field. And so he probably looks at it. it like he hired calmore to be the head coach of the offense viz fanjo to be the head coach

of the defense and nick is the is is the guy running everything right there's some uh like carryover bias right i mean it's obviously he's here and he over the course of two years has this unbelievable record three years rather and has earned the right to continue on the job but if i think of nick seriani like what his strengths are the things that do track yes with the CEO is like super detail oriented right like that is something that would be really important the fact that he cares about all the little details for every part of the game on both sides of the ball you know all three sides like that that tracks but I also think when you think of like the steady CEO type it's about like a you know an even temperament sure and I'm not so sure that that is

something that that he's bringing to the table now part of what makes him good at his job is that he has those peaks and valleys but you know the team you know even geoffrey has talked about wanting to to take that away a little bit i i think it's just like this this is not the job that he was hired for that's true and we'll see how it goes that's a good point right and what you hope is that he's not the coach who was hired then is that three years in he's he's developed him and matured and is is different than the coach he also has now three years of experience of being a head coach like he has he has a different perspective than he did that yeah you you you you put it succinctly, and you put it well when Nick was hired in that phone call, Jeffrey said,

I'm hiring you for the coach that you can become. And Jeffrey's mine, you would hope that by year four, that's the coach he's become. Yeah, there you go. All right. I will go to the other side of the ball here. And we've talked about this a lot. I don't think it's, again, not huge news. But I think there was real reason to be excited about the changing state of the secondary.

We can debate, you know, the opportunity costs, whether they should have done something else. but even when the corners were fantastic in 2022, when it was Slay and Bradbury playing at this unbelievable level, you were still thinking, like, boy, like the cliff is kind of approaching. At some point they're going to have to turn this over. And it, like it happened last year, they doubled down on Slay and Bradbury, right? And it didn't turn out very good. And we could have seen that coming because these were older guys.

Now you have Slay who can still play at a high level, but the pressure is not on him to continue to play at quite a high level, and they have enough fortification that, you know, if he suffers injuries, they should be okay. You know, Kila Ringo, I agree that he probably had the best spring of the corners from what we saw. He's younger than Quinnian Mitchell. I think there's real reason to be excited about him.

There's no reason to not be excited about Quinnia Mitchell yet. You know, they took him as the first corner of the draft for a reason. I think he's looked pretty good. Cooper DeGine is an interesting chess piece that they can move all over. even Isaiah Rogers as a pleasant surprise has been interesting they are they are deeper and younger here than they have been in a very long time and I think that that is reason for excitement yeah well said I have keely ringo might be the best non slate cornerback on the roster right now but I think the kind of branch off off that I don't think Quinnian Mitchell needs to be the type of impact player day one that I would have thought on draft night Right. I agree with that. Yeah.

On draft night, I would say that, man, they need Quigion to be like really good. This isn't a pick for three, four years from now. This isn't like drafting Lido. This is a, they need Quignan to be really good right now when you're taking the end. Today on June 10th, I would say if Quinyon takes a month or two before he's, I think they can get by. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that that is interesting. It's actually kind of opposite the way that.

thing stand at wide receiver sure right where you've got these two great guys but if one of them goes down boy are you in trouble you know they have enough at corner right now and like and let again this is the spring like we could get to the training camp we could get to actual regular season games and keeler rindgo's getting dusted and you know quinya mitchell doesn't know what he's doing but they have it they have enough there that they are a little bit um injury fortified sure sure yeah i agree and and that actually leads to my take and i say Isaiah rogers is part of that too yeah like you know uh and in Cooper de Junas as well, but like Isaiah Rogers as a, I would say, most likely the fourth corner, like that's a pretty good spot to be in.

And I also think they have, they have depth to trade from it. Yeah, they want to. Well said. Well said. And that leads in the mind here. So we can kind of combine it to. If you're not snaking or if you're just related, just go to. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I just had to sneak it because I wanted the serianni discussion before we. It was clog. It was clog. Yeah. Um, is that, uh, I see the plumber reference.

Howie Roseman's rebuilt the secondary in 15 months or has reshaped it in 15 months. If you think to March of 2023, they don't keep CJ Gardner Johnson. They lose Marcus Epps. They re-sign James Bradbury. In the draft, they took Sidney Brown in the third round, but they didn't draft a corner round one or two. They take Healy in round four, and you kind of don't know what the secondary is going to be long term. And now, I know Isaiah Rogers was a signing last year, but he really didn't come into play until this year. The Eagle signed CJ Gardner Johnson and Free Agency, and it's not like this huge long-term commitment,

but here's your starting safety there, that they spend their top two picks on corners, including one who can play in the slot, perhaps. both can, but we know Cooper the Gene's going to move around. Keelea and Ringo, I think, has developed at probably the best case scenario pace, right? Maybe not best case scenario, but at the optimum pace, right? He's much better year one to year two, which when you draft a 20-year-old guy who played two years in college, you're expecting that to be a down-the-road pick. And I think we're starting to see the fruits of that.

Isaiah Rogers is this lottery ticket who you think there might be something there. when the season ended last year, the secondary was the biggest area of concern. They needed help with safety. They needed help with safety. They needed help at corner. And going into camp, going into training camp,

my big spring takeaway, is that how he's rebuilt this group. Yeah, no doubt about it. Yeah. Yeah, they look much better. All right, sticking on defense. I think this is not, you know, a reason that.

that like the guy's not going to be the answer. But I think we learned that Vic Fangio is not beholden to Nikobe Dean at linebacker. You know, this started when Howard Roseman in his postseason press conference was asked about, like the allocation of resources. Did he, did he learn anything? And like the first thing he talks about as well, we really believe in Nikobe Dean, the player and the person, right? So from Howie's perspective, he's talking up Nikobe Dean, like he's definitely a starting

linebacker for this team. That's the guy who drafted him. That's his bias. but Vic Fangio is coming in without that bias and the fact that now, Nicopa Dean was a limited participant so it's hard to judge this precisely, but

Devin White and Zach Bonn are the starting linebackers and Nikobe Dean is working mostly with the twos. He's rotating in every now and then, but I think I would still bet that Nicopi Dean and Devin White are the week one starters at linebacker, but he's going to have to earn that. Vic Fangio is not coming at this like

this is Nicopi Dean's job to lose. All said. And two questions off that. First off, Devin White, the fact that he said in his press conferences, he was the guy, he was the lone linebacker and dime, that he's kind of the signal caller. Are you expecting him to be the green dot player for the Eagles this year? Do you think that's just camp and it could be Nicopi once and once Nicopi gets his feet underneath them? I would say if I had to guess, it would be Devin White. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. And I had the same conclusion coming out of the, the, spring as you did and that's kind of on my my list of the 25 here is that Nkobi needs to earn playing time this year and last year they created a situation where it was about making sure that Nacobi was the top linebacker they didn't make any meaningful moves other than Nicholas Morrow during the spring and in all early August they had Zach Cunningham and Miles Jack but everything was in place for Nicopi to be the guy and it doesn't seem they're

operating that way this offseason. Perhaps it's Fangio related. I would agree with the way you framed it because I can't imagine that's how he related, how he wants Nicopi to succeed. Not to say Vic Fangio doesn't, but Vic doesn't have the same investment in Nkobi. But the second part of, or the second question I have for you off of that is, were you able to learn much or anything about Fangio's defense or do you need to see that when it's game planned when there's a front four in there or a front five in there?

Yeah, I don't think I learned anything about the structure of his defense, but I learned, like, you know, I thought the shuffling at corner was interesting, his willingness to throw a bunch of stuff at younger players and ask them to play multiple positions. I thought that was interesting. So I learned that he was willing to do those things. Yeah, I would agree. The term we keep hearing old school, do you think it has a negative connotation? Do you think it's what the Eagles defense needed? Do you think how would you think it's just a kind of fresh conversation? Yeah, I think there's probably a bit of over correction.

Okay. And it's part of the reason that that like I'm a little skeptical of the Fangio thing from the Eagles perspective just because it's like they wanted this guy all along. And now they finally got him. And it's not necessarily looking at a problem with fresh eyes. Sure. Right. It's like let's this is the thing that we wanted to do.

Let's let's make sure that we got that done. But I think it makes a lot of sense. and for all the reasons we've talked about, like I think he presents a professional floor for the defense that they lacked last season. I don't know that the upside is quite as high. It might have been somewhere else, but I think it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree. I just, I would hope for their sake that they're not in the draft, in free agency, they're just adding the best players. They're not adding like Fangio type players because we don't know how this is going to work out. And you don't want to be in a situation where you made these moves to fit in Fangio system. You want good players who if there is a new coach here in 2025 and there is a new defense scheme here in 2025,

those guys are going to fit and you don't have to kind of redo everything again. Yeah. Okay. What's your next one? my my next one here is let me scroll down here and I'll I'll stay on this is is that Jordan Davis is leaner and I bring this up because this was a major talking point across the board Vic Fangio when who's asked about Jordan Davis talked about the shape he needed to be in when Clinton hurt was talking about when Dick Vanj when Clinton hurt was talking about Jordan Davis he talked about the shape he needs to be in when those picture surfaced from the Eagles autism challenge, the big takeaway was, well, he does look leaner. And then you hear Jordan Davis

speak, and he spoke about being at 350 pounds and how it looks better than last year. And he says, one thing I've been focused on is just getting better. I said the same thing last year for my rookie year. I'm stepping into a much larger role than I was last year, and I know what's expected to me in terms of being in my best shape. I'm getting in the best condition of my life. Now, there's kind of two takeaways to this. First off, this is the old spring train and joke you're always in the best shape of your life but the second is like we talked about this last year at this time and then come to the middle of the season we have brian baldinger on the show and and baldy says he needs to be in in better shape is this something we talk about in june and then in

october november it's the same thing or do you think this genuinely matters i think it matters from the reason that we talked about before just in a snap you know perspective like you know the tension between the Eagles front office wanting guys to rotate and Vic Fangio not really wanting that according to his history. He's going to ask Jalen Carter for sure to be on the field a lot more than he was last year. I imagine he's going to want Jordan Davis to be on the field more than he ever has before. So from that standpoint, I think it matters a lot. And I also like, you know, Jordan Davis needs to be effective, lighter than he was. Like he shouldn't need to be 375 pounds to be a good run stopper, right? Like he should be able to do, check the box of being a

good enough run defender at 350, which will allow him to theoretically be better as a pass rusher, right? Like, that's the promise of, that, that's the idea of him as a project is that he can do that. And so, yeah, I think it does matter. Who's more likely to, who's more likely to get a second contract from the team? Jordan Davis or Milton Williams? Good question. I think at this point would have to say Jordan Davis only because we've made it far enough along with Milton Williams that they end that he's closer to free agency. But I think, I also think Milton Williams fits every defense and Jordan Davis doesn't. Sure.

So that's probably why I would say that. But I also think that Milton Williams, if you're asking me who has a better chance of outperforming their draft slot, it's definitely Milton Williams. Agreed. Yeah. Do you disagree about the? contract? No, I think that if

Jordan has a good year, the Eagles will try to act quickly. There's a lot invested in him. Of course, he is a rare player. But this is the year when you want to see. Is he just a run stuffing knows or is there more there?

Are these athletic traits can they translate into I'm not saying he needs to be like a prolific sack producer but is there more than just occupying space? He needs to be on the field on a third down and providing a net positive. Because the point you made on draft day is well said, you can find a 330 pound nose tackle

in round six or around four, right? You don't necessarily need to trade up to what, number 14 overall to take a run-stopping nose stopper, a run-stuffing no-stopper. It runs stuff We know what you mean Nose tackle. So that's That's going to be a fascinating question this year.

Well, another way to act quickly, Zach, that you were talking about, is on the Bet Parks app, If you notice that things are going one way and you know that they're going to turn, like if Carlos Akoraz drops down two to one against Alex Verif in the finals, you know he's coming back to wins. Vera's not closing that out.

Carlos is coming back. Yay, make your move on the Bet Park Sportsbook app. That live betting, it's where some positive EV, I think, Zach. So get in the zone with the Bet Park Sportsbook app. The money is in the moments, and you can win big with all day action when your first $10 bet and earn $125 in sports bonus bets. You play for fun.

You love to win. You bet. Download the app and play along with us. Must be 21 or older. Please gamble responsibly. If you were someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help. Call 1-800-Gamber. If you like this discussion today and you want to read more and in more depth,

or I shouldn't say more depth, just more volume of things we learned this spring, there's going to be pieces this week on all-P-H-L-Y.com, and they're going to be die-hard pieces, and so you need to be a die-hard to read it, and we're determined to make it worth your money because it's draft season as well, and Charlie O'Connor already has terrific stuff up on the Flyers draft. You know our Sixers team is going to have more coming up on the Sixers. draft and you can read all of that on all p hly.com you can also see the events calendar for the

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We all know the Garage North. Make sure you check that out. The Sixers Group, the Sixers crew will break down. The NBA draft live at Garage North in Fishtown presented by Coors Light. PHLY will be giving away some incredible Sixers memorabilia and PHLY gear all night. We also, like I mentioned, all-PHLY.com,

we have premium written content for members, 20% off events, dope merchandise for all teams. Guy, I'm bringing that. That's great merchandise for all teams. Free shirt when you become a member and a member's only Discord at the PHLY Lounge. Zach, my takeaway number four,

ping ponging back to the offense is the identity of who is the fourth option in the passing game is still up for grabs. We still don't know who that is. And that doesn't mean that it's not going to turn out to be anybody or they're not going to mix and match and figure out who that is. But right now, you know, Paris Campbell was taking most of the snaps with the ones in 11 personnel or when Devonte Smith was gone.

You know, maybe Grant Calcutera, who Nick Siriani mentioned, takes an increased role in the passing game. Maybe it turns out maybe Ania Smith jumps. Maybe Johnny Wilson jumps. You know, maybe it's John Ross. but I think more likely than not. Like, the biggest reason to worry about it to me is the injury concern, right? Like they can get by if as long as AJ Brown and Devante Smith are healthy.

I think one thing to keep in mind is the Eagles view like the trade that they made during the draft weekend, getting that future third rounder for trade in the fourth round pick. Like they have optionality mid-season. Like if something happened early in the season to one of the wide receivers where there was a real concern, you know, we know that Howie Roseman would be probably very willing to move that pick for a player of high caliber. However, like, you know, what if it happens late in the season? Sure. And they still haven't solved it, right? Like there is, you know, they move the trade deadline back one week, right?

But it's still, you know, halfway through the year. I don't think that is a good enough backup plan necessarily. And so it is something that I am big picture concerned about a little bit. So you think if a trade comes, it's more likely to come early season deadline than it is training camp? For a wide receiver. For a wide receiver. Interesting. Okay.

I thought training camp would be more likely. Do you think so? I do. Although for a meaningful player to become available, it's more likely to happen during the season to your point. I also think if you're trading a third round pick to justify that for the fourth option in the passing game. is a little bit like that's expensive but if you're if you're trading that because you need to find a new second option the passing game that makes a lot more sense sure okay I think if there's someone would be it could be a you know it could be a you know it could be a you know it could be a

you know an Eli ricks for um who did we talk about from the panthers uh oh tarris marshal something like that you know it could be something like that sure in training camp but yeah I think if they're going to use the big chip and the third that that third round picks the big chip I think so. Yeah. I think there's someone with term on his contract, maybe before the season. But to the point there,

in August, everyone thinks they have a shot, right? You're only, what you're getting in August is someone's surplus. What you're getting in September and October, well, not September, what you're getting in October

and maybe early November, is an out-of-contention teams, top players. Well, I mean, think about the Golden Tate trader. right like that's the kind of player and that was a player on an expiring deal who they needed as the third option in the passing game at that point right but you've a j brown and devonthe smith are signed long term so you're not trading that pick for someone who you expect is going to grow into the number two option in the passing game right it's someone who you know has a ceiling of being at best the third

the number three that's a good point great great okay what do you got um so well how about you go because I'm going to be branching off of yours for next. I know what your next one is, and I don't want to jump yours. Well, why do you go ahead? Okay, so mine is that Mackay Beckton is a player here. And I'm not saying Mackay Beckton is going to be like your starter, but they're not putting just random pre-agent signings

with the first team offensive line or the first team offense defense in general, right? Like, Mackay Beckton is a different stage than, say, like, a John Ross. Now, you know that by the money, obviously. Sure. But the fact that Jeff Stoughtland is putting him at the top right tackle spot, the fact that Jeff Stoutland's putting him at left guard, when he's never played left guard before, Landon Dickerson's not there.

They could put Trevor Keegan there. They could put Matt Hennessy there. They could put guys who've, like, been guards. There's a reason why they want to see Mackay Beckton with the first team there. There's a reason why Mackay Beckton is the right tackle and when Lane Johnson's not there. Mackay Beckton is the sixth offensive lineman here, and he very well might be one of the top five offensive linemen, which we can get to in a few minutes. But like if you're doing a 53, Mackay Beckton's on the team. Sure.

And I thought we didn't talk much about it, but Mackay Beckton's press conference the other day was interesting for a number of reasons. First off, the honesty about some of the maturity that he's had here, he said in the past, he would not have been as interested in shifting positions. So what changed? Now, the skeptic can say what changed is that he was a free agent. He was kind of out there as a survival. But he said, when you have two tackles like Jordan and Lane, that's where it comes in. He said about Jeff Stoutland, I wanted him to be my coach. Once I heard the there was a chance, I was really excited. He was deliberate about picking Philadelphia, right?

Now, I imagine if there was an option there, you're the starting left tackle, he's going there, right? Let's let's be real. But once that's not on the table, it seemed the Eagles was a desired destination for him. And to be fair, it's also, you know, he waited at some point, he decided to wait until after the draft. And so he knew that there was an opportunity there.

Exactly, yeah. Not just the Stoutland of it. Like he wouldn't have chosen. If the Eagles had drafted Troy Fautano in round one, I don't think he'd be here because of Jeff Stoutland. You're right. But we were talking about the Eagles drafting a tackle who could potentially play guard.

Now, if they draft Ameris Mims, maybe, you know, or if they drafted Tyler Gighton, I hear your point. But it really seems that this was not just a cover your basis signing for the Eagles. Oh, I agree with that. From the Eagles perspective. Yeah. From both sides,

there's genuine intrigue about the player and the possibility here. I think from the Eagles perspective, definitely. And that's why I don't know if this is, you know, just my contrarian or what, but I don't believe, like, there is the perception that, like, okay, the Eagles have cleared the deck for Tyler Steen. It's going to be Tyler Steen. I think there's a big difference between what the Eagles have done with their actions with Tyler Steen versus what they have said about Tyler Steen.

I mean, just go through the entire arc of the first year of his career. he comes in and you know when he was drafted we we debated whether he would push cam jurgens to be the starting right guard right never once practiced with the first team at right guard okay cam jurgins goes down when he's a rookie he doesn't get the he doesn't get the spot sua opetta gets the spot he gets to start one game when suopet is injured later in the season there's another opportunity to start and they start sua again not tyler steen they brought in a bunch of offensive line prospects point that is first round possibilities to presumably add a guy over Tyler Steen to be the starting right guard you know Nick seriani forgot about him at the uh at the owners meetings the second the draft

ended and they didn't get a guy they they signed mackay beckton mckeye beckton is getting time at left guard Matt hennessey who was here as a interior offensive line swing guy took no reps that we saw at center or left guard he was only at right guard he is being like put at the position where there is an opportunity. Like, I do not believe that this is Tyler Steen's job, definitely. And if you're thinking about this from the Eagles perspective, what do you do if you hope it's Tyler Steen, but you're not convinced, you gas him up, you say, you know,

Jeff Stoutland says, oh, yeah, we want to have the same lineup the entire time. I'm like, that's what I would have in an ideal world. You make it seem like we're all behind Tyler Steen, but you have several options in place. I mean, you sign Max Sharping, another guy. with starting guard experience, like they have given themselves options, three good ones, it seems like, two good ones at least, that are there if Tyler Steen is not ready for prime time.

They also have the very recent example of the same thing with Isaac Sayamalu, a second year player. If he starts and he's not that great, can you pull the rug out from under him and still have him go on to a productive career? I'm not saying that they don't like Tyler Steen or that they don't envision him being a starter here for multiple years. but I think the hook is very quick for Tyler Steen. That's the clip of the day right there.

That's it. That's well said. That's watching what they do. You're absolutely right. So if you had to predict, who's starting week one at right card? I think that Tyler Steen is probably still the most likely answer. And, you know, I might put like 51 turkeys on it.

I think Mackay Beckton is the number two most likely answer. and I think Hennessy is number three. But I think it's, I think it's really, really tight. Yeah. And look, to the point that you said at being there, I did not want to interrupt because it was really well said. The Eagles even said Cam Juergens is not a guard, right? They were, you know.

And looking back on last year, like, I didn't really want him at guard. Yeah, Jeff Dalton even said, oh, yeah, this is much easier than last year. Last year, he's like, you guys asked me it last year. I didn't know how he was going to do a guard. We know he can be a high-level center. Jordan Milata, when he was asked how Cal Cal Cam's doing at center, Jordan's like, he's not a guard. He's a center.

Like the Eagles put Cam Juergens there at right guard last year. But they had their second pick in the – or I'm sorry, their third pick in the draft last year was this offensive lineman who they talked about, even though he's a tackle, we're going to play him at guard and we think he can play guard. And they had just lost their starting right guard and free agency. And look, if they kept Cam Jurgens on ice last year, it would have been fine. They didn't have to play Cam Jurgens at right guard.

Certainly you want your second round pick playing in year two. But Cam Jurgens was specifically drafted to be Jason Kelsey's replacement. The Eagles didn't know if Jason Kelsey was going to be here last year. Tyler Steen, if Tyler Steen was good enough, he could have started at guard last year. that was not the case. The Seua Opeta thing, you were on it in the middle of the year. That spoke volumes. The fact that they went back to Sue after putting Steen in.

This is very much a question. And then like you said, you can point out the fact that the Eagles did not draft an offensive tackle in the first round. That was more based on circumstance than it was based on intention. They did not fly these first round offensive tackles in the Philly just to kind of get legwork on them. they were this was this was something that that they thought would happen the draft fell differently they did not think the first cornerback would be off the board at at 22 right um so you're absolutely right this is not an organization that is putting all their eggs in the tether steed basket okay what's your uh what's are we done was that your last yeah yeah the beckton one was my last one

wrap up all right how was your weekend it was nice i save the non football stuff for the very end We were listening to the sickos? Yeah, I watched both Phillies games. What did you think? I think it's cool. It looked like a cool atmosphere. I mean, Bryce Harper, that celebration was awesome. Yesterday was a tough loss for the Phillies.

Cassiano's, man, you got to get a little more barrel on the ball there, right? But I saw people tweet about this. I don't mind 10 a.m. baseball. Like, I thought that was kind of cool. On the weekend especially, yeah. I mean, thinking out loud here, I'm hoping we can get less on sometime soon because Les was there. I would love to hear what his experience was in London. But yeah, it was cool.

I watched that. I'd be more interested in less as just general thoughts on London. General thoughts on London, yeah. I wonder if it's his first time there. I had dinner with, first time there since the game. I had dinner with him after the Eagles Jigs game back in 2018. Yeah, where'd you go? We went to like a pub.

It was a good spot. Tough spot for you, by the way. I know that this was a difficult in between for you because you go on the record as saying London's just an okay food town. Oh, then Stephen Cohen. And then Stephen Cohen comes out and says it's a better food town than New York City. And I know that every part of you wants to trust and genuflect with the billionaire on his side. So did that change how you feel?

Has nothing to do with Steve Cohen's, finances. Steve Cohen spends, I've been in London for a weekend watching the Eagles Jags game. I had three meals in London. They were good. Stephen Cohen has an office in London there. Although his example was, he was a sausage that he ate on like, at the golf course, which

I don't know golf courses. Is it like an exclusive golf course, the one that he was that was referencing? I don't hear that. I didn't hear that part. Yeah, I mean, I made a comment to, to Bo the other day at Brian Dawkins' hit Brian Dawkins' got off the grill. But they had like, like, hot dogs on the grill. And I was like, is this a thing?

This is, this is awesome? Like, you're at the turn. Is that the expression? You go from the 9thole to the 10thole and you just grab a hot dog? That's, that's cool. So I guess that's what the sausage was. That's not the example. I ate at a really good Italian restaurant in,

in London. London has great Indian food. I meant more like the cuisine that's like specific to London is not like my favorite type of cuisine. But look, London is an international city. They have great food. It's just I spent, I spent three days in London for Eagles Jags. One of my meals was. But that's how you make your declarations about every food city. Yeah. I wasn't like blown, you know, I, I went my my sister studied abroad in Florence. I went to visit her and I had like three life changes

like I don't want to say life changing meals but like three amazing meals in Florence Nice During my time in London I had one with this Italian place It was called Padea Padella

Padella It was really good I waited like an hour and a half sat at the bar At a great pasta A glass of wine a really good spot. But yeah, I don't think of love London as like this amazing food city.

Well, shots fired at Steve Cohen. I don't have strong opinions on Steve Cohen. Okay. Do you? Yeah. We don't have to talk about him right now. Oh, okay. Yeah.

I mean, I don't, you know, yeah, I don't know much about, I don't know him personally, honestly. Follow through on a conversation from last week. Did end up watching the Princess Bride with Casey this weekend. Oh. What a perfect movie. Did you quote it? Well, of course.

I mean, he took the one that he's held on to is no more rhymes. Now I mean it. Anybody want to peon it? He's a big fan of that one. But I mean, just no doubt in my mind. It's always been my favorite movie. But just the revisit with him. It's perfect, perfectly.

paste. Everybody's bringing their hey game. Doesn't get any better than that. You've never seen it? I've never seen it. I'll watch it in the summer. We might now be in a fight. Because I haven't seen the Princess Bride? Yeah. Okay, I'm sorry. I mean.

Also, we had Casey's graduation on Friday. I mean, waterworks. Oh, you cried. Of course I cried. Are you kidding? I had no chance. Really? Okay. Yeah. Are you kidding me?

Like, just, of course. I mean, I knew going in, but I'm happy for you. That's awesome. And congratulations. No doubt about that. Yeah, congratulations. That's awesome. You're not a crier.

I cry from time to time. I did not cry at Sloan had her graduation. I did not cry at it. I was so proud of her, but it did not bring me to tears. but there's nothing. There's nothing. I'm not casting any judgment. Everyone has different thresholds.

I'm not worried about your judgment. Okay. Oh, you're casting judgment on me because I can cry at my daughter's graduation. No, I love my daughter more than anything. I didn't cry at her graduation.

That's okay. You think you'll cry at her wedding? Probably, yeah. That's a good moment. I mean, yeah, I mean, she's five years old.

I can't even envision her getting married. It was a weird question. Yeah. So, yeah, we're probably. about 20, 25 years away from that. So we'll see. Okay. As long as she's happy, that's what matters to me.

Amen. Yep. All right, that'll do it for this episode of the P.H.L.Y. Eagles podcast. Thanks everybody for watching and listening. Back tomorrow at noon, noon all week. So we look forward to that for Zach and Andrew on the ones and twos.

We'll talk to tomorrow. And as always, we love you.