PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | Philadelphia Eagles ‘What-ifs’: From Justin (Jefferson) to (Chip) Kelly & so much more

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

Les Bowen joins the show for a trip down memory lane and an exploration of alternate timelines. What happens to the Eagles if they trade for Russell Wilson and sign Allen Robinson instead of keeping Jalen Hurts and trading for A.J. Brown? What if Carson Wentz never tears his ACL in 2017? What if Jeffrey Lurie gets his wish and hires Ben McAdoo in 2016? What if Andy Reid never hires Juan Castillo as defensive coordinator? Zach Berman and Bo Wulf join Les for a fun Sliding Doors exercise of recent Eagles history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What if James Bradbury doesn't get flagged during the Super Bowl? What if the Eagles sign Peyton Manning? What if Howie Roseman gets fired instead of move to the other side of the building? We are talking about all these alternate timelines with Les Bowen and Zach Berman coming up next on the P.HLI Eagles podcast. A show Y'O-Y Eagles podcast. A Monday high news starting off the week in rare form. We have an exciting show today. Joined as you can see if you're watching in the middle by Les Bowen,

well as Zach Berman. Les you and Julia, actually, I don't know if you know this, both in attendance at the Phillies games in London. I did not see Julia there. I'm sorry. Julia, did you see less? Okay. Too bad.

I was way out as your time abroad. It was great. It was a really wonderful trip. I love London. I enjoyed the games. We went to Edinburgh on the train. That was cool. Saw a lot of sheep.

I love Edinburgh. Yeah. When my wife and I did a then girlfriend. like a long backpacking through Europe trip a long time ago. We had gone to like some mediocre castle and outside Dublin first. We're like, this is not a castle. Then you get to Edinburgh and like, oh, there's a castle. There's a proper castle.

There is in the city. It's built around it, a beautiful city. My favorite part of the castle history is when the Jacobites were going to, you know, they had the army. They were all ready. It was like it almost sounds like something Monty Python, but it was actually true. this was 400 years ago they stormed the castle

and then they realized that the ladders they built were way too short run away right away uh Zach how are you how was your weekend I'm doing great excited to be here I'm interested to hear more about that

backpack and trip can say I had a great meal in London with less the last time I was in London after the Eagles game I can imagine now we're in this world-class city Les is enjoying London and he's being peppered by me with questions about do you think Jordan Matthews is legit right now?

Because that's basically that was the type of dinner companion I thought it was great. After that Eagles Jags game back in 2018. Yes, I believe Jason Kelsey missed a snap in that game because he got kicked in the nuts. Remember that? Vaguely. I remember that's what I wrote about.

That's what you wrote about, okay, yeah. This is good. Josh Adams running rampant. Bad turf, right? Yeah. Bad turf. Yeah, it was a cool venue. Wembley?

Wembley. Yeah. All right. We've got a lot to get to. And I feel like this is a show that may go over because there's so much to talk about here. The concede of the episode today, Les, is what ifs over recent Eagles history. Now, there are so many that we have to confine it a little bit. So we're going to try to keep it to the time that we have covered the team.

And I think the best way to go about this. is a little bit chronologically. So maybe we'll bounce around, everybody give one from the Andy Reid era, the Chip era, the Doug era, the Syriani era, and then maybe some leftovers at the end. Now, there are all kinds of ways to go about this, right? You could talk about game situations. You could talk about coaching decisions and personnel decisions,

draft decisions. To me, and we'll get to these, but the most interesting ones to me are the ones where, like, we know that the Eagles wanted to do something and we're not able to do it. Yeah. And so like what would have happened had they gotten their druthers, if you will. But let's go through it.

Zach, do you want to start with your Andy Reed, what if that you'd like to unpack? Sure. Let's start with one we've discussed over the years, which was what if Russell Wilson was the third round pick in 2012? And this is something that in that building, they speak frequently about that they wanted Russell Wilson. They thought Russell Wilson was going to be there.

of course Seattle takes them. The Eagles end up with Nick Foles. But what if Russell Wilson was the pick in 2012? Do you think they would have had, what if they'd taken him in the second round? Is that like should they have done that? With the Vinny Curry pick, they got what they wanted and they got Vinny Curry in the second

and Russell Wilson. It's about, what, 10 picks later? Yeah, they were, I think it was 12 picks and they were convinced that Russell was going to be there. And in the draft room, they were saying he's going to be there in the third round. I remember how he actually calling, was it John Schenberg? Schneider, I guess, and congratulating him for doing that because he really didn't think anybody was

going to step up. I don't know if Jeffrey Lurie had the same congratulatory, a feeling after that one. It's, they would have been a really good team, I think. Nick had, they drafted Nick instead, and Nick actually had, you know, a hell of a run in 2013, but it didn't last. And that was under Chip. Yeah, that was under Chip. Does Andy keep his job? Yeah, that's a real good question. So, yeah, let's play this out a little bit. 2012 is the year that they go four and 12 and Andy gets fired.

If they have Russell Wilson, presumably he gets on the field at some point as a rookie. He probably doesn't win the job right away like he did in Seattle, but shows enough that Andy sticks around. This is where what-ifs are problematic to me. Yes. Because I do believe in the butterfly. I agree. Russell Wilson was very, very successful with a great defense and a great running game in Seattle. I agree.

But he had LaShawna McCoy. I mean, Wauke's defense was not. Did not have a great defense. Did not have a great defense? I don't know. It probably would have worked out real well, but I'm not certain that it would have. Russell Wilson has shown, particularly in recent years, that he's not, you know, Peyton Manning or Drew Brice or Patrick Mahomes. I mean, he's a very good quarterback.

It would have been very different, that's for sure. Yeah, I think. How would his personality have gone over here? Yeah, it's a good question, right? And would it have turned out to be different if he had Andy Reid, you know, on him instead of Pete Carroll, right? I think Andy keeps the job. I think Andy keeps the job, too, at least for a year. Sure, right.

Who knows if, I mean, Andy's going to have to replace Juan Castillo after that year, presumably, right? And we can get to that as one of the possible what ifs. That's the thing. Andy needed the reset. I think he really did. And he changed a lot of stuff. I'm not sure Andy would have done that here. But at the same time, you know, Andy Reid is a good quarterback developer.

Yeah. And so if he has Russell Wilson as opposed to, you know, Pete Carroll developing, maybe Russell Wilson becomes an even better player under Andy. Also, Russell Wilson is probably a better fit in Schip's offense. And so if Andy does go in 2013, ship takes over. It's very clear who the quarterback is, right? They turn toward Russell Wilson. And the chip era might turn out differently as well.

I'm trying to think of like a personality clashes. Russell Wilson, Deshawn Jackson does not seem like the, the happiest marriage to me. You don't think so? Might not necessarily. Who do you think she put a side with on that personality clash? I think you probably know the answer to that. Yes.

Okay. That's interesting. How about you, Les? What's top of mind for you? Oh, wow. Well, I was saying before we cut on that I, when I think of the what ifs, I tend to think of games more than huge meta-type decisions. There are two things that really stick in my mind, both from the Andy.

Reed era. The very first year I covered the Eagles was 2002. They should have beaten Tampa Bay in that infamous playoff game that closed the vet for football. They had beaten Tampa during the regular season handily. In that era, defense and running the ball were still a good way to go, and they had done it that way. And they didn't, Andy didn't want to do it that way in the NFC championship game, even though Donovan McNabb was one week back from a long absence from a fractured ankle. So they got a lead and then tried to throw it. And a lot of things, John Gruden just really, I remember Hugh Douglas telling me that

they were passing from a two tight-in set. So Hugh Douglas was on the bench because Jim Johnson thought two-touching. tight-in set, I need the running guys in there, and Hugh had to go to Jim Johnson and say, they're throwing from the two-tight-in set because you take me out. You know, I mean, the things, you know, it just, they had a better team. They had the better team. And to make it, to really put the cherry on top, the Super Bowl was Tampa against the worst team of my era of covering Super Bowls, the Raiders, a Raiders team that was,

like 150-year-old Jerry Rice, 120-year-old Rich Gannon. How the hell they got to the Super Bowl? I have no idea. They were horrible. There was no way the Eagles would lose to that team. And how much would have been different if the Eagles had won the Super Bowl in February 2003?

It's like the meme of like, this is what Philadelphia would look like if they had won the Super Bowl in 2008, too. Right, too. So if I can follow up there, how do they, let's say they do win the Super Bowl then. Do they operate differently in those following years? Do they not feel the urgency to go after T.O.? Right. Oh, no, I don't think they would.

They're saying they've won one. Yeah. This is working. This is the personnel you're doing it with. Yes. And they opened the stadium the next year. Yeah. With a Super Bowl banner as the champions.

Yeah. It makes everything different, I think. Yeah, well, and it's like you talked about the other day, Zach, in the Cole Hamill's Zach Grincky conversation, right? You win that Super Bowl for that group, everything changes. They're always the team, right? And so, you know, Andy Reid doesn't have all the years of the hand ringing over and can he get it done and all that stuff.

And it's not a far-fetched one. It's not like, you know, a lot of people talk about that Alshan Jeffrey catch. And we can get to that. That team, you know, they weren't winning any super- Let's just do that one. Yeah, but because that one is so, it is a little silly to me. Yeah, exactly. The ball, he's got a, he should catch the ball.

But they're at like the 21-yard line. They still have to score a touchdown. And even if they do score a touchdown, the Saints can come back and kick a field. And even if they win that game, like that team had already way overachieved. Yeah. Like we're talking about they're giving 10 carries to Wendell Smallwood and the defense is like Trace Sullivan is playing state. That team had already overachieve.

And they would have lost. And Nick Fos was not playing the way he played. No, if you're for 200 yards in that game. They should have lost the opening week. A kicker hits an upright. I mean, I don't go with that one at all. Yeah, they're on the 19-yard line. There was two minutes to go.

So like both said, they still need the drive and score. They only score two touchdowns in that game. There's no sense that or there's no reason to be convinced. They score a touchdown there. And even if they do score a touchdown, Drew Brees needs a minute to go get a field goal. which is certainly conceivable. So that's one of those that I think the Eagles have kind of built that myth up. You've heard Hallie Roseman say,

we're a drop pass away from winning a second one. And people forget, they were also two games away, right? So then they would have to go to L.A., right? Beat the Rams. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm not buying that one. Yeah, come on. But I did have one other one real quick.

I don't want to dominate the discussion here. But my other one that I always, I was looking at the game. book to refresh my memory before we came on. 2010 playoffs. It's a very good one. 44 seconds left, first and 10 on the Green Bay 27. Michael Vic throws up a jump ball in the end zone for Riley, rookie, fifth round rookie, Riley Cooper.

And Tremont Williams intercepts and the Eagles lose. And the Packers go on to win the Super Bowl. now this is a very interesting one to unpack you have like four plays left and the the overriding thing to me of this was so this was the year of redemption for michael vick he played wonderfully there was a lot of the narrative was about how he had put aside his you know ridiculous gambling uh you know doing crazy things and he was playing within a structure and he was doing things the right way. And when we talked to him after the game, his excuse was, well, I just wanted to try to make something happen.

I remember that very, very well because it was all I could do to keep from yelling out, you had 44 seconds. It was first down. You didn't need to make something happen. I mean, I have to think, since the Packers won the Super Bowl, that the Eagles might have been capable of winning that Super Bowl. It's certainly capable.

And I remember going into that game, it felt like these were the two best teams in the NFC at the time. You know, I remember thinking, working for the team that if they had won that game, they had a very good chance to win the Super Bowl. Obviously, they had the miracle at the new medal ends that year.

Like, the offense was interesting by all the advanced stats. They were one of the best, you know, five or so teams in the league. That game in particular has a lot of what ifs. You know, they lost by five. This is the famous, David Akers' misses,

his two field goals. Yeah. And he gets the, we can all count. And that was, you know, maybe a little uncouth on Andy's part. But,

uh, like that's a big deal. They had a two point conversion to tie it. And Brent Selleck steps out of bounds before catching what would have been the two point conversion. So, or not to tie it. I didn't even remember that.

I didn't even remember that. Yeah. They don't have to throw it up to Riley Cooper. You could argue that Riley Cooper should have knocked that ball down. Riley just kind of stood there and watched it. I remember that real. But to, in his defense,

he was a fifth. But why would you throw it up? of hail married to a fifth round rookie on first and ten from the twine. I'm sure he was like, what the hell? Deshawn gets hurt in the beginning of this game and comes back in the second half and makes an impact. It was fun like watching the highlights. I was doing that this morning. If they win that game, they then probably go to Atlanta.

Atlanta. Oh, no, actually, no. They go to Chicago because he goes where the three seats. They go to Chicago. A team that was playing over its skis by the, the advanced stats. It's a Jay Cutler team. I think I would have expected them to win that game.

And then if they win that, they either go to Atlanta or play a bad Seahawks team at home, presumably at Atlanta. Could have won the game, but it's still a long way to get to. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. To actually get to the Super Bowl.

I mean, the game was right there. And you also wonder if they win that game, you know, does Aaron Rogers get chastened a little bit? Maybe doesn't develop brainworms over the course of the next decade. That's the only, that's the only Super Bowl we ever won. Let me ask you this. I wasn't there at the time. If they win that game,

the Sean McDermott stay, the defensive coordinator. I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Because he was a highlight, like they switched to Juan Castillo there and that was a major inflection. I think that's a huge inflection point.

Because they didn't have to fire a shock. They did not. They had a few veteran players who mocked him, Asante Samuel, mostly, who just thought the guy, you know, who's this little guy who played at William and Mary.

I don't need to know. do what he tells me, you know. But their metrics weren't bad. It wasn't like they had a terrible defense or anything. There were just a few players that wouldn't accept him as Jim Johnson's successor. How many more years were those players around? You know, not many. And what this leads to is the one thing, right?

Right, which was a disaster. Of course it was a disaster. Now, Andy wanted to try to lure Monte Kiffin originally, right, who was coaching with his son. son at USC. If that is, if he is the defensive coordinator, presumably they're a little bit better in 2011. You don't have the, you know, the disaster of the dream team.

You know, other defensive coordinators who were hired that cycle include Dennis Allen, which would have been interesting. Rob Ryan, right? He reached out to Rob Ryan as well. Now, my understanding there and you guys were there, I wasn't covering the team at the time, is that they wanted Jim Washburn. They hired Jim Washburn. And so they needed a defensive coordinator.

somebody who would work with Joe Washburn's defensive line. How you do it that way, I have no idea. Then that's why I think Andy needed a reset is because he made so many really bizarre decisions. Well, right. Part of the reason to move Juan was because it meant that you could also get Howard Bud. It started with Washburn. It's like, oh, we could pair Washburn and his buddy Mud. But we got to keep Juan.

So, oh, let's devote him to defensive coordinator. And, you know, Howard Mud, one of the, you know, a Hall of Fame coach, but that didn't work out well, either. He wasn't around half the time. But if Juan's the offensive coordinator, the offensive line coach, they're probably not drafting Jason Kelsey. Right. Right. All of these. I just think about the by effect. Like it all, it all follows around. Very good point.

Yeah. So that was the one that I would have talked about. The last one from that era, the end of the Andy Reed time is, and this is a little bit more far-fetched. And I think not my kind of favorite where it's something that was close to happening. But, you know, they were one of the teams pursuing Peyton Manning sort of undercover in in 2012. Now, Peyton didn't really want to come to the NFC East.

You didn't want to have to play against Eli, so it probably wasn't going to happen. But, like, they were making every effort. They were doing, you know, there's a story of like Dom is giving Peyton Manning like a virtual tour of the Novacare complex on his iPad because Peyton wouldn't even come to Philadelphia. But, you know, if Peyton comes at that stage of his career, I would know. And he certainly stays, right? Sure. Yeah.

I think that's one. where, you know, the Eagles want it. And as you said, and Peyton Manning wasn't considering it. From what I understand, Peyton really wanted to stay in the AFC as well, not just the NFC East, not just the boarding the NFC with Eli there, but he's a maniacal, you know, student of the game. Right. He knew the teams in the AFC.

So he was considering Tennessee at the time. He was considering briefly the New York Jets. He was considering, but I think the Broncos and John Elway there was certainly the draw. But you're right. I mean, I do know during that period, Eagles were looking at a number of big-name quarterbacks. And even in the draft, one thing I also know is they've learned now.

This isn't like a bold take, but they had a really high grade on Andrew Luck. They tried maniacally to trade up that year. Obviously, Indianapolis wasn't moving off that pick. But I think they were hoping that the Colts would bring Peyton back. Right. And they could trade for the number one pick. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. Well, another what-if, Zach, is what if instead of putting your money in a big bank,

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They also have a Dr. Goodwin and a lemon lime flavor. just use the code P-H-L-Y for 20% off your next order. The discount only applies to one-time orders, not to subscription orders. Alipop is sold online, drink Alipop.com, and on Amazon, and it's available in almost 30,000 of retailers nationwide, including Wawa, Target, Sprouts, Wagman's, ShopRite, and GoPuff, as well as the salad place I went to last night. I do want to keep things moving and move on to the chip era, but I have one other question for you, Les, having been there, and I know this was on your list, Zach. if Kevin Cobb never gets hurt in week one of the 2010 season, how do you feel like the Kevin Cobb Eagles quarterback era would have gone were he not plagued by concussions?

That's a good question. They kind of sold me on their investment in Kevin. I was pretty confident that they wanted Kevin Cobb to be the quarterback. And I think he had some attributes that could have made him successful. but the problem with Kevin Cobb was he was tall, but he was built very, he had one of the most slender builds of any quarterback I ever covered. And one thing that happened with him, and everybody knows this, he got hit a few times and got a concussion or two and started, instead of moving laterally, he would go backwards in the pocket. And he didn't have a great arm. So, A, going backwards in the pocket is never a good idea

because it's hard to even get the ball back to the line of scrimmage so that you're not grounding. There's no, you know, you don't gain anything out of that except the chance to lose a whole bunch of yardage. But B, if you can't really zip the ball, you know, you're putting yourself in a ridiculous hole. So I just don't think Kevin, I think Kevin was always going to get concussions and I think his career was always going to work out like it did although he was

you know kind of a good game manager type quarterback a smart guy you know I think it would have taken a lot longer maybe if he hadn't gotten hurt in that opener against I guess it was green bay yeah so much green bay in the what-if department you could you could argue that the one we were talking about a minute ago was a was the karma getting them back for fourth and 26 you know there you go Um, but, uh, my one quick follow up on the, on, on the cop thing, because you were there, from what I understand, and this might be, be revisionist history from players that they saw during that summer that Vic was, was on the verge of being special. Do you think it was inevitable that Vic was taking over or, or do you think had Cobb not gotten hurt, they would have done

everything they could to keep Cobb as the starter? I think they were going to be very reluctant to move on from Kevin Cobb because Andy had drafted him and groomed him for a couple years and, you know, they liked him a lot and they were not sure about Michael Vic, you know. The first year that Vic came back from prison, he really couldn't do much of anything but run around. I mean, it was, yeah, he was so rusty and so out of sync. So I think it took the coaching staff a lot longer. I think the players, especially the black players,

a lot of them grew up admiring Michael Vick, and they were on board with this. The Atlanta Michael Vick, you know, was a hero to them. Sure. To Andy, he was a guy they could always beat when they needed to because he didn't see this and he didn't see that, and you just had to keep him in the pocket, you know. It was a different mindset as to who Michael Vick was.

But I do think by the end of the season, certainly they would have ended up with Michael. We like to say the players know, right? The players always know. Yes. And this happens a lot where, where, you know, there's even like a Jalen Hertz, Carson Wentz, to this. Yeah. Where like at some point, sometimes the players know sooner than the coaches are willing to admit. I'm a bit of a Kevin Cobb truther, like maybe against the evidence.

But like, you know, so my start with the team is, is that 2009. season when they when they signed Michael Vick and Kevin Cobb had the two games in place of an injured Donovan McNabb looked very good in those two games and so like it's hard to say if he never got injured because he does have that style that maybe was lending itself to getting injured I believed in Kevin Cobb I thought that I thought that under Andy Reid he could have been a top 15 quarterback and like the playoff caliber quarterback right however once they brought in Vic I do think the writing was on the wall yeah for him eventually so and Vic had that amazing arm I've just never ever seen anything like that whip.

Look at the wrist, yeah. His career was really a tragedy. I mean, he could have been, he could have been just so, so, he could have been Mahomes,

you know, I mean, but he wasn't. All right, Zach. Your boy, Chip Kelly. Okay. Comes in in 2013. What is the,

what is the what if that hangs over that era in your mind? Yeah, I'm curious, your perspective here or less, is the Eagles were interested in Marcus Mariotta. Chip Kelly gave the analogy of your house shopping in a neighborhood where the houses are

beyond your price point, so it never gets to that point. But there is kind of an understanding that the Eagles were prepared to offer a huge hall that included multiple picks, Fletcher Cox, Michael Kendricks, right? That would have been a disaster. Yeah. So now the flip side is that Marcus Marioo was kind of Chip's ideal quarterback, right? So what if Tennessee said, man, this is too good a deal. deal to pass up, right? I know we have the number two pick and we have a needed quarterback,

but we have Kerry Collins and now you get Fletcher Cox and Michael Kendricks and a first round pick and a second round pick and a first round pick next year. What would have happened for the Eagles in those subsequent years with Marcus Marioita and Chip Kelly? Oh, that would have, I think Chip would have been done even sooner than he was. You think they would have been more reluctant to move on because it's like, here's your guy. I think he would have had a little bit more time. Okay, there's that aspect to it. But Mario Oda was never great. He and James Winston were so disappointing.

It was one of those things where every year there's got to be two or three franchise quarterbacks in the draft. Sometimes there aren't, you know, and there weren't. I mean, it was neither one of those guys was what he was billed to be coming into the league. And that was a blind spot chip had. None of his Oregon players were of that era, as much publicity as they got. Who was the pass rusher, the third overall pick? Yeah, Dion Jordan. Dion Jordan, you know, who's Dion Jordan? I mean, it's not like John's. Over and over again, you know, the only Oregon player I can remember of the chip era that the Eagles ended up with, and they only

had him very briefly was Jordan Poyer whom they drafted this seven was a state who was good oh it was Oregon State and you're right yeah yeah yeah Casey Matthews was the ship knew him well because of wasn't even a wasn't even a chip that was an anti pick yeah no no but I'm saying who they drafted from that era yeah from one Taylor Hart yeah Taylor Hart no I'm saying before Chip was there yeah he's not that's how you were just oh Oregon guys in general of that era just weren't yeah they were great college players but on the La Shamaquite the John Jackson podcast.

They were joking about Jeff Mail. Like, who's this guy? You're right. Like, they thought it was just like a camp body and all of a sudden he's on the team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go.

So, yeah, I don't, Marcus Marietta, that would have made things even worse than they ended up, I think. I think, you know, obviously the great macro, what if of this era is the fissure between Chip and Howie. Yes. And I guess the question is, was that always destined to happen? You know, the story goes that the reason that Chip lost faith in Howie was because of that Marcus Smith draft. When there were six guys on their board they wanted with six picks to go. They were going to get one of them. They were going to get one.

Somebody's going to take somebody off this board. They go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And from that point on, Chip sort of didn't trust Howard anymore. So if they do get, you know, ha ha Clinton Dicks or whoever it is, does, do they work together for a longer period of time? and do a vet does eventually how he earn Chip's trust and can build him a roster where they're not, you know, signing to Marco Murray and doing these stupid things. Or the flip side is,

what if Jeffrey Lurie just sides with Chip Kelly and instead of reassigning Howie to the other side of the building just decides Howie, I love you, but I'm moving on. Like we need a new proper GM in here and good luck in your future endeavors. I'll open up a subhead into that second heading we know Howie talked to other teams, at least one or two other teams during that time that he was in exile. Right.

What if he had actually gotten a job somewhere else? Yes. You know, Jeffrey wouldn't have had to do anything differently and Hallie would have still been gone. That would have changed everything, I think. Which is probably a better what if because I actually don't think that Jeffrey ever really considered firing him. So if he got that job, that would have been more likely. The basic problem with Howie and Chip, I think Howie is a little bit different guy than he was 10 years ago. I think there was a lot written and there's been a lot said.

Howie was a very difficult person when he first became GM. He was not an easy person to be around or work for. I had a lot of people tell me, you know, I couldn't stand to be around this guy. you know, he was really, every day was, you know, he wanted to reinvent the wheel every day. You know, what are we doing? What are we not doing? You know, it was just exhausting to work with him. He didn't have a lot of respect for other people. And Chip was kind of the same way. So I just don't think they were ever destined to really get along. I tend to agree with that. I tend to agree with that. But had that draft, That draft certainly gave Chip the weapon to convince Jeffrey, let me try my hand at personnel.

Had they not, had they gotten who they, I don't think Jeffrey would have done that for Chip otherwise. Because I think Jeffrey knew by then that coaches don't necessarily, you know, the coach as GM isn't a great model for most teams. coaches or coaches. I know Chip felt right away that he knew as much as the personnel people because in the 2013 draft he knew that O'Dell Beckham was the best player.

And that other teams didn't know that, so therefore he was a personnel genius, which is just like you or me saying, well, I had Jason Kelsey as a pretty good player coming out. So therefore, I'm... Yeah. Yeah, I think

when I look back at that time from Howie's perspective, had the Eagles been good in 20, like, in 2015, he would not have stayed for a second year of that. I think that first year

was kind of like, all right, let's see if this works with Chip. Exactly. Let's see if this works with Chip. But had they gone 10 and 6 again, and Chip gotten another year, I don't think Howie would have been two years out of the game.

You're probably right. So how he might have, like Les said, how he might have left on his own volition, whether it's another team, whether it's a media gig, something like that. Like I don't think he would have been in that side office two years in a row.

And this is then you, I mean, you talk about the butterfly effect and like the really divergent past because even if that had happened, if Howie leaves, I don't think the chip is a longstanding coach. So then all of a sudden,

it's a brand new era. Who did hire? Who's the GM? Wow. It could have gone in a completely different way. But I think, I think Chip had his doubts, for lack of a better term, from the jump. I think he wanted his own guy in there.

I think Jeffrey believed with two 10-win seasons that Chip was worth doubling down on at that point. But I think that he was also appropriately skeptical. I mean, he kept telling him around for a reason. I think he was giving him enough rope to hang himself with it. Definitely skeptical. And that actually, every time I think about. about that aspect of it. I think about where we are right now

with Nick Siriani coming back after this horrible collapse with these two coordinators and the quarterback saying that 95% of the offense is different. And apparently, Howard Eskin pushed back against that. We all think Howard talks to management and the coaches.

Are we in a similar situation today with Jeffrey sort of, yeah, well, well, Nick, let's see if this works, you know, which is what I think he kind of did with Chip was like he kind of knew in the back of his mind that there was a good chance that this wasn't the answer. I think it's an appropriate thing to circle back on. I think the difference is, as opposed to empowering Chip,

I think he has sort of neutered Nick. Like, I don't think that Nick's idea was to bring in Kellan Moore and Vic Fangio. I think that was, you know, Jeffrey and Howie. idea. If anything, the guy who's being like given the rope to maybe hangside, I think you could argue that that's Jalen. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is like, okay, here's here's everything you should need, Jalen. Yeah. If you can't do it now, then maybe we're having a different conversation. Yeah. But just to put a bow on this too, I think when Jeffrey looks back at that time, I think his,

his perspective is that he probably wishes he acted sooner on the interpersonal dynamics of that. Yeah. That it was because, and I think you reported. this well at the at the time less that Jeffrey was a little more hands off back then like you know and and uh it was kind of known at the time his team back that there was something simmering uh you know with the interpersonal dynamic so if if their way what if what if chip kelly had uh the temerity to say hello to say hello to say hello to say this famous story with the sixers and again i don't cover the sixers but pat croce basically like sitting larry brown and now and iverson down and say you guys got to, you guys got to work this out, right?

So it's... Could Jeffrey have done that with Howie and Chip? Yeah. Maybe he was doing that, but he should have been more forceful about this. Like, Howie's not going anywhere and you're not going anywhere, so you guys got to work this out. Right. Yeah. That's a, that's tremendous. Yeah.

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If you or someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call 1,800 gambler. Look, I am, I believe in journals, and this, disclosure is important. I'm not an objective source with this, but I've been going to all p.chly.com frequently or the past 10 months, but especially these past few days, because I think our coverage of the NBA draft and the NHL draft is outstanding. Yes. And if you want to know everything from Bubb Carrington in the NBA draft at Berkeley Katten in the NHL draft, you've got to read our coverage.

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And you can find all our. events on all p hl y dot com we have nch l draft event we have uh uh the sixers draft event coming up the sixers one is at garage north and fish in fitchtown the flyers one is that chickies and pete's with broad street hockey breaking down the entire nchl draft uh you can find all of this on all p hly dot com so head over to all p hl y dot com now and join the best sports fans in the city i have a couple things here uh first of all outside of a discussion you said from from from bub to Berkeley, right? Yes. Do you guys share my distaste for a list of names being alphabetized by first name as opposed to

last name? I do. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hate that. Yes, I do too.

Like really makes me angry. It's so unsurious. What are we doing? But I find for alliteration purposes, the first name is better than me. Yeah. I don't disagree with that. Yeah. I'm hoping that as scribes, you share my pet peeve there.

Okay. Second question, before we get to the Doug era, do you think that Howie Roseman is as good today as a general manager if he hadn't experienced that divorce with Joe? No. He needed that. He needed to, he talked a lot when he first came back about having spent the year analyzing other ways of managing and thinking about how he presented himself. And a little bit of that is...

I think a little bit of that is myth-making. Myth-making. He had to do something with his time. I think it's more about the Chasand-Digo a little bit. And, you know, he talks about, like, you know, he goes up and trades to get the second pick for Carson because he never got himself a quarterback. I think what it was was more like,

I might only get one shot at this. Exactly. Like, I'm going to be much more risk-tolerant. Right. Yeah, I think his perspective at that point is, I lost my job before, right? So it's like you get the second chance. I'm going to do it my way, right?

I'm not, and perhaps he's more emboldened than to do it his way. But I think his perspective was if he's going to fail this time, it's going to be entirely because of him. It's not going to be because of other factors, like picking something for a coach or something like that. And having gone through all that, I think that might have helped him. The most impressive thing he's done to me as a general manager

is dig himself out of the Carson Wince mess after the 2020 season and reset. Because I really thought the coach lost his job over Carson Wentz, not turning out like they thought. It was the GM that made the trade. They had a bad team and the defense was old and they didn't have a quarterback and I was like, ooh, this could be it for Hallie. I mean, Howie has to really show something here.

and he hit from downtown on that. You know, he really got them back very quickly, and that was, there was very little luck involved, I thought. I thought he really made a series of really strong, calculated moves. Well, we could argue about that when we get down into the Nick area area because I think there is a bit of luck that was involved in that 2021 off season. However, let's start with Doug, because I actually think that this is my favorite what if

because it is something that was very close. close to happening. The Eagles wanted to happen. And like, it's not, it's not theoretical. The Eagles offered Ben McAdo the job that eventually went to Doug Peterson. You know, Jimmy Kemsky has the report of the, like they sent him the gift basket. They basically thought that they were going to get Ben McAdo. If Ben McAdoe was hired in 2016, what happens in that era? You know, is he, they're probably, they're still drafting Carson Wentz. I think you would expect they probably still have Jim Schwartz as the defensive coordinator. Does a Ben McAdoo-led team and offense make waves?

Or does it fizzle? I don't see how that would have, where I think they dodged a bullet. You know, what did McAdoo do with the Giants? Do you. Brom to the playoffs, and then they went downhill thereafter. My interpretation on the McAdo thing, like I'm not disputing that they wanted them. I think Eagles were more of a leverage play for Macadena.

I could do. I think that the idea all along was for him to to be the Giants coach and that the Eagles were kind of used to hasten that. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think there was... But they were willing. They wanted him. Yeah, I think it's one of these things where like you realize after the fact you were just a negotiating chip, right? So because like if he if a guy wants to take a job, you know, if he wanted the Eagles job, he would have taken the Eagles job, right? I actually think that Adam Gase was someone that they were really interested in, and Adam Gase specifically chose, like, he wanted to be in Miami, right? But to the point, I asked Jason Kelsey this.

That sounds like a flex, I'm not. I asked Jason Kelsey this a year and a half ago. I was doing a story on Eagles coaches, and basically I was trying to ask, like, the chicken or the egg. Like, is it the organization that makes the coach have success, or is it the coach that makes the organization successful? And Kelsey's point was like there's an infrastructure in place in Philadelphia. It's not a coincidence that they've had successful coaches.

And look, it might not be a coincidence that the Giants have cycled through all these coaches as well. So I think that McAdoo very well might have had more success here in Philly. I don't know if I think he absolutely would have had more success here than he had in New York. But I also, you couldn't possibly say that he would have led him to the Super Bowl. No, but I, but like was Doug this, no, no, McAdo's personality and Doug's personality was different. I think in McAdo, and some of it might be narrative-based, but I think they kind of viewed like almost an Andy Reid type, former quarterback's coach with the Packers who, but clearly, and he tried to carry himself a certain way. Doug, I think Doug was the right coach at the right time for the Eagles.

Yes. You know, I think that there were certain personality. not anything's with MacDoo that would not have worked out well in Philly. But that is a great sliding doors. I just don't think, I think they would have been left at the altar, no matter what, by Macadale. And I think that the Eagles' interest was McAdu getting John Mara to act swifter in offering him the job. And I don't know, you know, you said they'd probably still have Jim Schwartz, and I'll take your word for that. But I do know that one of the things with Doug was.

because Doug had only worked for Andy in the NFL. Yep. And he didn't have a great rolladex of assistant coaches and how he hired most of that staff, you know, out of his. I say that because, so, McAdoo had been the interim at the very end of that season with the Giants right. And so Spaggs was his defensive coordinator. He kept Spags.

I'm not so sure that he would have been able to keep Stoutland. Do they do this? Do they do that? I don't know. I think there's a good chance. I think McAdoo would have done better in Philadelphia, but I think there's a good chance that it leads to another full tear down of the organization and maybe like a new general manager as well.

Right. Yeah. Okay. What else you got for the Doug era? So for the Doug era here, we spoke about Al-Shan. I'm curious, there's a lot of sliding door scenario here. Super Bowl season, I think, is a good. Like, if Carson never tears his ACL, okay.

Do you think they still win the Super Bowl? I was going to go after that, but let's stick to the Super Bowl season. You know, I do. You do. You do. Wince was tremendous and that offense was tremendous with Wence. I just think they were the same team. I know Foles had a game for the ages.

I'm not sure that Wince couldn't have had a game for the ages in the same situation. That was not a good New England defense. It wouldn't have gotten any better. Even with Matt, Patricia, is the corner? I will stand up for the 2017 version of Carson Wentz. I agree with that there. There was nothing wrong with that guy. He could certainly win a Super Bowl.

Would he have? I mean, we have, there's no way to really know. Of course. There were so many plays in that Super Bowl that were just, you know, Chris Collinsworth kept insisting that the Eagles weren't scoring touchdowns when they were. Right. Yeah, I think they were the best team in football with Carson Wentz. Right.

you know, water gun to my foot. I would guess they probably don't win the Super Bowl just because so many different things have to happen. You know, that game was so crazy. If Carson's a little bit different, I think maybe there was something to the personality of the defense, you know, feeling a little bit more umbrage after everybody of writing them out when Carson Wentz gets hurt.

You know, Malcolm Jenkins sort of takes over. You've written the book about it, Zach. I just, you know, that the Super Bowl game itself was such a thin margin that, you know, I can't say that they definitely would have won. Yeah, I think with Carson, I'm with less. With Carson, they were the best team in football.

Yeah, I agree with that. And so, yeah, the best team doesn't always win. I get that. If I can build on that, I'm curious with your perspectives on that. What if after that Super Bowl,

they say, Nick Foles just won the Super Bowl MVP. Like, Carson, we love you, but we can't turn our back on the guy who won the Super Bowl MVP. You have extraordinary value in this league right now.

We're going to trade you, Carson, okay, because Nick Foles is our guy. Like, we've won the Super Bowl with him. He has this, this magic. We believe that we have this whole thing. You don't lose your job because of injury.

But he just won the Super Bowl, right? Does the clock strike midnight on Nick pretty quickly and the Eagles turn back to a mediocre team? Do they get such a significant draft hall for Carson Wentz that now they're not just kind of doubling down on all these old guys and and and yeah that's interesting and like you know they they have more first and second round picks that's an aspect of it i had not

considered i mean if you just limit it to okay nick foals is the quarterback as sir carson i nick had chances in two different cities to be actually three if you count his first time around in philly yeah to be a franchise quarterback and as amazing and wonderful as he could be in short stretches, he proved conclusively over the years that he was not a franchise quarterback. He kept proving it over and over again. The magic would go away. Sure. The magic went away. In fact, he ended up starting the 2018 season as the Eagles quarterback, and people couldn't wait for Carson to get back in there because Nick wasn't good. Yeah, fair. You know, but the hall, that is a big, yeah, the hall they would have gotten for trading Carson at that point.

that's that's really interesting that's that might have made a difference i mean if you look at the draft the following year baker mayfield goes number one sam darnel goes number three josh allen goes number seven uh josh rosen goes number 10 like are these teams saying you have a 25 year old who was on the verge of being the MVP oh i think teams would have lined up outside your door for that Jesus, you know what I mean? But I also didn't think there was ever any chance that was going to happen. I don't think so either. That's much more of a, I think, retrospective, like they could have done this. I don't think they were ever considered. In the moment, no. But I really think, what about the following year, though? But they felt, well, they felt warm and fuzzy enough to keep

Nick around for the next season. They could have traded Nick at that point and gotten assets. I think keeping Nick around for the next season turned out to be a very counterproductive move because Carson never felt comfortable. Yes. Yeah. In that situation. And it started, although the real reason the Eagles weren't good in 2018 and 2019 and 2020 was that they let the talent level around Carson go to hell, you know, by drafting.

Although the Eagles might, the Eagles might come on and say for 2020, what if COVID never happens? Yeah. And then all of a sudden, yeah. It afflicted the Eagles more than anybody else. But can I ask you guys one thing from that COVID year? Yeah. What if Justin Jefferson was the pick over Joe and.

Yeah, that's the biggest thing. Which was the headline on today's show. That might have, truth be told, that might have done more to get Doug fired than anything else. Oh, you mean the pick? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, because that's the story. We bat this around. And that's why this one is.

Jailer Rager. I also think, like, I don't think they were ever going to take. I don't even think that was a discussion. I think, you know, they believed that Justin Jefferson was a slot only player and they needed a guy on the outside. And that was going to be Jill and Rager. And so, yeah, it would have been, it would have been great if they had drafted Justin Jefferson.

And I think if they do, Doug doesn't get fired. I think the offense is much better. Maybe, and maybe eventually he gets fired in 2021, but that saves the team. They don't take Devante. Obviously, they don't take Devante. They don't get AJ Brown. I think they probably don't win the Super Bowl. However, I just don't think that they were ever going to draft Justin Jefferson over Jill and Rick.

Huh. I just can't. I know that's what they thought, but I can't imagine thinking that, having seen Justin DeFrizzan. It was such short, so I said this at the time, and I feel strongly about this. They looked at their roster, and they said, we're going to play 12 personnel with Zach Ertz and Dallas Godder. We have these two great. tight ends. We don't need, you know, when we're in 11 personnel, Greg Ward was our leading receiver last year. It's ridiculous to make a decision based on Greg Ward. This is a big picture

conversation. It's ridiculous to make a decision on the two tight ends because you know you're not going to keep two tight ends. The myelopea of using a first round pick on what is, what fits a specific moment in time, exactly, as opposed to taking the best player. But they thought, they thought they were like on the doorstep and you make these decisions when you're, you're on the doors like this team just needs this um i do think that year they were interested in trading up for cd lamb because they thought cd lamb could play on the outside but uh just the jefferson bow's right i i think the coaches had determined that justin jefferson was a slot and they needed a speedy outside receiver and what do you think if they don't make the uh ryan bates for eli harold

trade well well that would have said everything back that would have said everything back but but in that draft and again we don't need I know we need to get to Nick yeah but I think that if we're going along today yeah if for uh if they decided to take Jeremy Chin that like let's let's not mess with

with Carson once we like Jalen Hertz as a prospect um but we see Carson has a fragile psyche um let's I don't think they saw that it's a bad job by them well I think that they thought and they said this publicly by think they thought this privately like we traded nick foals we gave you a franchise contract like

what more do you right to see from us like we've showed you our love you know we and and so but if they did not take g allen then i don't think they are moving on from from carson because they don't have that plan be in place yeah yeah but but also then carson is probably not asking to be that's true as well yeah uh the last one from that era very quickly if uh if josh mcdaniels doesn't back out of the Colts job and Frank doesn't leave. Does that change the arc of the next couple years for the egos? I don't think it changes too much. Yeah, I think Frank gets a job the following year

probably. And I also think personnel became a problem, you know, wide receivers and you know, I just don't think they had I don't think the problem was so much the offensive coordinator. Although I do think that Mike Groh was an outstanding wide receivers coach.

Yeah. And we can overstate the value of a position coach and a players development. But I think that maybe if Mike Row remains the wide receivers coach, developmentally the bad position is not as much of a mess as it turned out because they go to your boy, Gunter Brewer,

and things were, then they go to Carson Wall. Yeah, things go to Carson. They go to, they didn't have stability at that position. Maybe wide receiver looks different. But I think you're probably right. If things go well, then Frank Wreck is gone a year later anyway, right?

Exactly. Right. Good point. All right. Last era here. Let's talk Nick Siriani. And to me, we talk about the things that, like, we know the Eagles wanted to do, the 2022 offseason, when eventually they trade for AJ Brown. They enter that offseason. They would have liked to trade for Russell Wilson or Deshaun Watson. And they would have liked to sign Alan Robinson. And like, you talk about things that turned into a disaster, all three of those. players changing teams turned into like absolute busts. And so if that was Harry Rosamond's big leverpole that offseason, let's say he trades for Russell Wilson and signs Alan Robinson. I think things have blown up. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's what they wanted. Yeah. They wanted one of those quarterbacks. Like that's the luck. They wanted one of those quarterbacks. Even when they couldn't get one of those quarterbacks, like you said, they wanted Calvin Ridley or Alan Robinson, right? like a j brown was not plan a going into the off season um but certainly going into that year with jowen

hurts was was now again some of them might be provisionist history i think geoffrey believed in jowen maybe more than like uh into you know more than howie might you're probably right you know nick didn't take this job that coach jowen hurts right um but you're you're absolutely right yeah i i i don't think you know I mean, Russell Wilson, some things you can say are environmental. Russell Wilson had Nathaniel Hackett and Sean Payton and did not play well with either one of them. I think you're maybe overstating. I just mean like he's had two different coach, you know. DeShon Watson, I think Kevin Stefanski is a high level coach.

He's been mediocre. He was a year removed from, you know, from football at that point. So I would have never I was astounded that they really wanted Deshawn Watson because that doesn't fit Jeffries. I didn't think so either, but everything tells us that they did. Yeah.

I would not have even been close to that. And maybe Deshawn Watson was not interested because he didn't want to displace jailings. Yeah. But if Russell Wilson wanted to be here, he would have been here. Yeah. I think they just wanted, they wanted a top quarterback, right?

I mean, Russell Wilson more so. I think Russell Wilson was the guy that they that they really hoped and russ wilson was not interested in coming to philly what else do you have on the on the nick uh so this yeah so there's a few things with nick here um we so not trading carson was was one thing we can get into but i'm curious too and again bow's gonna laugh when i bring this up but what if jonathan ganon stays what if you know like there are two pass okay right yeah go ahead yeah so the two paths is is what if if if jonathan Ganon notifies them earlier right and then Vic Fangio is the defense coordinator last year as opposed

to Sean decided that's one thing that's a huge I know what if like Jonathan Ganon he's he said on the field after the game Philly I'm staying here right you're stuck with me what did Jonathan Ganon comes back what how does how's last year different a with Vic Fangio and B with Jonathan Ganon. What do you think less well I think that helps a great deal either one of those things helps a great deal. Now, they did get into in the secondary, it's always a disaster when you've got, you know, okay, this week we're starting this guy that we found on the street three weeks ago. You know, they did get into a little bit of that in the secondary. That was, that was going to be a problem, no matter who the coordinator. If you're going to have those kinds of injuries. Sure. The coordinator

isn't going to go out there and cover anybody. But it was such chaos, defense. I just think it had to have had to have been better. I think the whole vibe would have been better. Maybe the offseason moves. Yeah, I think that's a big one too. I think Vic has clout last offseason in terms of how they compose that roster. And I think would have- Or if Gannon had stayed.

He would have had clout. Yeah, certainly he would have had clout. There also would have been continuity. What difference do you think? What do you think they would have done differently, personnel-wise? Safety linebacker. Yes. I think the approach would have been different.

I think we've seen that this. off season i think a linebacker at least they would have signed a guy sure yeah yeah they didn't have i mean they didn't have a lot to work with i don't know go ahead look maybe gannon is is more right now stay their plan going into last off season by the way was keeping cj garner johnson and letting james bradbury leave right yeah when they couldn't agree to deal with cj garner johnson they revisit bradbury they were i mean sleigh was say has said this he he was going to baltimore right right they I think slice said Dom called him at the last minute yeah um yeah so that their secondary their plan was for the secondary to look differently last year than ended up looking that said

with with Gannon or with fan jio i'm open to the case that they might have been better with ganon than Fangio last year because of there's there's there's yeah there's there's continuity there again knows the personnel and i think the composition of the coaching staff's different um yeah i don't think denard wilson leaves in that situation. So you have your secondary coach there? If it's Gannon. If it's Gannon, I'm saying, yeah.

If Gannon comes back, they're bringing back Wilson. Like, you know, DeNard Wilson wanted that coordinator job. They hire someone from the outside. He leaves. Now, you know, Nick Rawles is coming back as your linebackers coach. So now you have your, no, I'm saying. No, no, I'm not being sarcastic. You have your entire.

But you have your entire staff back. But I'm thinking this through. Yeah, you know, that is more different than I kind of initially. I mean, there were a lot of butterfly effects again and leaving that I think hurt that defense. And of course, Jonathan is a high level. Sure. High level coach. I also think, though, that like they would have been better.

Yeah. I don't think, you know, that I'm winning the Super Bowl last year. Which pain so many people in Philadelphia to hear. But yes. Yeah. Well, I don't know that it's definitely true. I also think that like just having a guy who Nick trusted would have made a difference because he's not making a panic move to, you know, fire the defense coordinator midseason.

Well, I just think Nick's, I. going into last season about not expanding the offense and just getting really good at the core things that they did well. Yeah. Well, I think it was a bad idea, and I think it's the sort of thing that loses you cred in the locker room. I can't say that he did lose credit, but if I were a player and I saw how that worked out, it'd be like, does this guy know what the hell he?

if they had Gannon or Fangio there last year. And the offense still, I was about to say this. You know, fizzled away at the end of last season. Does that put even more heat on, on Syriani than you have a path? Yeah,

and to build on that, I know this is like the nightmare scenario for some Eagles fans out there. But if they were compelled to make a coaching change, I do know in that building, they thought very highly a Jonathan Gannon. Right? Like one of the...

I think you're being now. No. No. If the defense was played at a, at a mid to high level last year, and the offense faltered. And the problem was the offense. Perhaps they're saying, like, look, we have this young defensive coordinator who we think very highly of, right? We don't want him to leave one day. Maybe that's the case.

Or maybe I'm going to read the comment section at three hours that people are going to say, Joe Mazzulah and Jonathan Gannon, Zach Berman, doesn't know what he's talking about with coaches. Coming out in October 2024, The Genius, the biography of Jonathan Gannon by Zach Berne. Now you know what I'm working on late at night. Whoever works are sold.

All right, last one for you. Very simple. If the flag is not thrown on James Bradbury at the end of the Super Bowl, and the Chiefs kick a field goal, they're up 38, 35. The Eagles get the ball back with about 150 left.

Do they go down and win the Super Bowl? So I think they tied the game I think they go down Kick a field goal and tie the game Now I shouldn't I I should know this up to the top of my head Last year was the first year of the Of the new overtime rules right

It wasn't two years ago Because it was a reaction to the bill is chief So then I think whoever wins the coin toss In overtime wins the game You get the ball first they go down and score touchdown But I think that the Eagles at that point I mean the Eagles weren't Lights out on offense

in the second half of that game. They punted twice. They kicked a field goal. They scored a touchdown on that preceding drive. But I think there would have been what? A minute and a half to go, they would have had one timeout or two timeouts? Two timeouts.

I feel it very much in my bones. You think they score a touchdown. You think they go lengthy. I think that day, if you put the ball in Jalen Hertz's hands, that day with that much time left and two timeouts, I think they win that game. I'm sorry. That's my.

yeah i mean maybe you know we will we will never know never know yeah so their drive i absolutely believe that they would go down to win the so so here you go so just just um their drive chart uh in the second half was field goal punt touchdown yeah field go punch possessions yeah the problem was their defense couldn't get off the field so the offense yeah don't tell that to zach yeah don't tell that to zach the genius was it was on the headset that day right all right i you know what i i i i i i i i i In my post-game notes, not of this, but of my shows, I've learned that I don't have to dignify everything with the response. So I'm not going to have to dignify that with their response.

But, yeah, I think that the, I think they would, they would have scored a field goal at least. It would have got at least over time. Now, the chiefs would have been fourth and eight at the 15 if there's no defensive holding there. So there's no way Andy, Andy's kicking the field goal. There's no way to go for it. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, so at that point then you got a buck for, yeah, you're right. You have a minute 46 to timeout. I think, no, they would have had one time out. It would have one time out because they used their third timeout on the first and 10 play. So they would have had, but they would have had a minute 48 to go one time out.

I think they score for sure. I mean, I'm just, I'm just making things up. I think what's more interesting. The only variable to me is if they score and there's time left, whereas Mahomes find a way to win it with 20 seconds left. And that's a good one I've always thought about is if, let's say the chief score a touchdown, let's say Bradbury doesn't hold and it becomes a touchdown and they get the ball back. Yeah. Do they then go down for touchdown? And if they score, do they go for two to win. And that's the whole thing.

And I kind of think that they do go for it. I was thinking that at the time. I remember thinking, now I forgot about that. But I remember thinking that watching the game is, geez, if they just let them score, you know, go back. Your offense is the strength. And I remember asking Nick that at the time. the combine, would you have gone for two? And he's given a smile, like, uh, you know, we'll never know.

But I think he would have. Hmm. Now, I do think that had there not been a penalty there and the chiefs win the game, there's more heat on next decision to punt the ball. Had there not been a penalty? And what do you mean? Had the chief, so if the reason, if the blame for losing was not on the flag. Okay.

Okay. And you go back. I think there's more. You start analyzing more. You start analyzing. You say, the fourth and two punt? The fourth and two pump, which he, you know, I give a lot of the beat on, but I don't think that, I mean, the defense is the thing. Well, that you think.

Like, no, defense is the thing now anyways. Yeah. But I'm saying, but if, if there's no penalty, they kick a field goal and then the Eagles don't go down and score. Oh, and then they don't go. Oh, I see. I see what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. If they get the ball and then they go tight.

If they get the ball, they don't score. Then I think. I feel like if that's the case, it gets narrowed into that final possession. That's final possession. Why didn't they get a field goal? That's a good point. That's a good one. But certainly, I mean, I mean, Gannon's the scapegoat, no matter what, right? To me, that was a Super Bowl that the Eagles should have won.

To me, I think that's a Super Bowl. The Eagles should have won much more than Super Bowl 39. I never really thought the Eagles were winning Super Bowl 39 in the second half. Their defense couldn't stop the Patriots. I'm not going to get into all that McNabb T.O. stuff. But, you know, it just, I think, people are fooling themselves. The Patriots were a better team that year. I have one more. And this is actually an Andy Reidier at one.

Okay. And I, you're going to think this is a joke, Zach, but I want you to answer it honestly. What if Jonathan Tamari is not interested in politics? Well, I know the answer to that. I don't know if I could say it publicly. I think the statute of limitations has passed. No, because I think I'm covering a different team in this city. I'll put it that way. I'm pretty confident. I'm covering a different team in the city if that Eagle's job

that's not open in 2012. But, yeah, I mean, when this show is over, I'll tell you. Fair enough. Yeah. I understand. I understand why you're going to answer that.

But you're still covering the... I'm in Philadelphia. I know that. I know I'm in, I know I'm in Philly, and I know what I'm doing. And maybe eventually, and Eagles, you would have applied. And we'll see what would have happened. Eagles is what you wanted.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, Eagles, I mean, football is the biggest show in town. It is. And I mean, not to make this about it. But like when I left my first job covering college sports because I specifically wanted to cover the NFL. And I remember at the time, there were people saying, why would you leave where you were leaving?

And I said, because I want to cover the NFL. And everything. So like that and then old I also got in the NFL. Yeah. And I had visions of having a family one day and I thought football was the most conducive for having a wife. That is certainly true. It's the only beat really as conducive to that.

So yeah, the NFL was specifically kind of what I wanted. But if that eagle's job didn't open, I was looking for a job, right, in Philly. And so I would have been covering a different team is the answer. There you go. All right. Do you have a career? What if that dates back for you, Les? I almost became the Phillies beat writer after the 93 World Series.

Paul Hagan was covering for the Daily News then, and he was going to leave the beat and become a columnist. And somehow he backed out of that. And to tell you the truth, I'd been around the Phillies a lot. But I had been doing national baseball in 89 and doing some other, some Philly stuff in 89. I covered the game where they came back against the pirates when they were down 10-0 and Steve Jelts homered from both sides of the plate. I'd done a lot of Phillies.

So I was, and I was there for the World Series. I was riding sidebars, you know, that was my, let's see, 93, my 11th wedding anniversary, Jim Carter, right in front of me at the Ox Press Box. So I was set to do that, and Paul decided that he wanted to keep the beat, and I stayed on the flyers and ended up with the Eagles nine years later. I liked hockey. I wanted a little bit bigger stage. Baseball beat, though, especially the way we did it back then.

Relentless. Would kill you. And we were just having our second kid, and I think I'd probably be divorced. I'd probably be divorced. If I'm serious, you know, I mean, that would have been a disastrous move for me. Yeah. Plus, the Phillies weren't good again forever. You know, it would have been a real, not a great time to start covering the Phillies.

But you would have had October's off? I guess, yeah. But, yeah, that would not have been a good. That was a big near miss for me. Good one. You have one? I mean, I don't know. If, you know, if, you know, if, you know, if she'll not have been.

not who they bring with the athletic launching in 2017. I'm probably not here. I don't know what I'm doing. You'd be successful wherever you were. I know that. I don't know about that. Well, you spent some time out of sports, right? I did, yeah.

Probably still not be in the business. Yeah. That sounds dreadful. Yeah, I don't know. I'm joking. Now, you'd be successful wherever you were. I know that. I don't know that.

But thank you. I think so. Yes. That's nice of you to say. All right. Well, that'll do it for, A fun theoretical edition of the PHLY Eagles podcast. Thank you, Les for joining us.

Back tomorrow, I believe we're having E.J. Smith coming in with us. We got to actually double-checked to make sure that we're still doing that. But I think that E.J. is a man of his word. That'll do it for this episode. Thanks to everybody else. Let us know if you have other what-ifs you think we should have talked about. Maybe we'll bat him around later in the week for Les and Julia and Zach. I'm Bo.

We thank you for listening back tomorrow at noon. And as always, we'll be. We love you.