PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | Will Tyler Steen be replaced? Philadelphia Eagles’ iOL options with Brandon Thorn

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

We know finding an eventual Lane Johnson replacement is on the Eagles’ to-do list, but they also don’t have a right guard starter set in stone for 2024. Could that be a surprise use of a first-round pick? What about the middle- and late-round options for Jeff Stoutland?Brandon Thorn is our favorite offensive line expert and he joins Bo and Zach to discuss the players you need to know. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Studio B. We're talking about the big uglies today, the interior offensive linemen. I know you're ready to talk about hand placement, people moving, all that good stuff. How are you doing? Doing great. Excited for the show. Big uglies. It's in the eye of the beholder, right? I mean, I'm big and beautiful as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. So I enjoy looking at this interior offensive line class and excited to speak to an honored guest about it. We're going to hear from Brandon Thorne, who is, as far as I'm concerned, the preeminent offensive line expert around these days, both in terms of the NFL and in projecting guys

from college, evaluating them. So we're looking very much forward to that. Had a nice dinner with Brandon Thorne and Fran Duffy, among a few other people's at the senior bowl in Mobile. Just three football guys talking to Yeah, and it's all three of us sharing our techniques for cooking eggs

in the morning. We're all we're all sort of egg men. Well, I change it up sometimes, you know. Sometimes you do the like high heat right away, cover it up, let the steam get to it, take it off the heat, let it finish cooking that way.

You know, sometimes people put a little a little mayo in the egg to scramble it up, a little fluff to it. Joey doesn't like that. She's shaking her head. I know Julia famously anti-Mayo, but are you only scrambled? Do you do sunny side up?

Only scrambled. Get out of here. Come on. What? Did I offend you? Of course. Fry an egg. Absolutely. I sometimes often prefer a egg to a to a scrambled egg. I had a sunny side up egg this morning. Yeah?

Just straight sunny side up. Yes. Okay. You like that, that ooze? You got a piece of toast, you're sopping it up with? What do you got? Not typically. It was just, that's what was,

it's what was there this morning. So. Oh, you're missing the king of the mountain came down upon high. I don't want to, sat down in the kitchen and all of a sudden. This is what has been. served to me. I was afraid that was going to be your response yet. No.

Emily made me a sunny side up egg this morning. I'm capable of making eggs. I'm not like I can talk to you and Fran and Brandon about, uh, it was just she made an egg this morning. No toast. Because to me the appeal of the sunny side up egg is you get, you get the to sop up the yolk. Yeah, I'm trying to be a little better with that.

But yes, it was, it was very. Otherwise, flip that bad boy over, make it, uh, make it, again over. over medium. I'm excited to hear Brandon Thorne today. You're really trying to get off. Definitely, definitely. Mr. Mr.

Can't cook breakfast for himself. That's not true. I can cook breakfast for myself. I did not this morning. That's all. Yeah, people absolutely outraged over the no toast. I mean,

if you're getting a runny yolk, you got to stop that bad boy up. What are you in licking the plate? I, all right, I hear you. You're correct. You're correct.

I will have. You're really trying to. everything you can do to get out of it. Definitely. I appreciate that. What else is going on in the in the world? Oh, we got we got Brandon. Let's do it. Brandon Thorne is with us from the jump. Brandon, good to see it. How you doing? Doing good guys. How you doing? We're doing very well. We are excited to get into all this stuff. And I want to start with a big picture question for you. And we were talking about eggs at that dinner we had. But the other conversation we had was sort of big picture about guards.

And it is, you look back at the history of the, like, where the best players in the league come from over the past 10, 12 years. And guard is like the bizarre position. It is the position where guys tend to be a little bit older than other positions and more of them come from smaller schools. Like the power five percentage is a little bit lower. Like all the general trends do not apply to guard. I wonder why you think that might be.

Yeah, that's interesting. You know, I think a lot of those cases are college left tackles or right tackles, I think primarily left, who just kick inside, you know, to guard. So there are guys who, you know, play well typically, you know, in college at left tackle, but they just don't measure up to, you know, the physical thresholds that typically are there. some of that maybe with the age factor typically they're very experienced guys who just you know are good to very good college tackles but they just make more sense inside as pros there's several of those guys in this class and i think every class that's the case and i'd say the majority of like really high level guards in the NFL were college tackles so yeah when when people project them inside i don't think they should be too surprised just because, you know, the majority of guards really are just, they have a similar sort of background.

If I can build on that, one thing that we keep hearing with the Eagles and that we keep discussing is drafting a tackle who can potentially play guard early in his career and then move over to fill in or take over for Lane Johnson. But not all tackles can necessarily move in the guard. So what are you looking for? What traits are you looking for in a tackle to know that this is a guy who,

can play guard. Yeah, I think play style is one place to start. And typically guys who want to be more aggressive and attacking in their approach, specifically in pass protection, generally those guys, you know, would be a fit inside just because that's sort of the mentality that a lot of guys play with more so inside than outside. A lot of that has to do with spacing and depth and just, you know, a tackle. Oftentimes you're playing.

more space. So to have that sort of default aggressive approach can get you in a lot more trouble. Not that it can't get you in trouble inside too, but I just think the margin for error is a little bit more thin outside. So I think how they approach past protection and play style is one way. And then in terms of like specific skill sets, I think if guys do have that approach and they are still very good with their hands in terms of placement, you know, dexterity, adjusting to guys, you know, when they get into their body and things like that and they're strong, you know, in terms of anchoring and things like that, then, you know, you probably have a guy, a candidate, you know, right there. And I think that there's a bunch of those guys in this class.

So let's sort of get to the class and maybe the process for you first. When you are evaluating interior offensive lineman, what is like the number one trait that you were looking for? What do you care about the most? I would say play strength is the number one thing. Being able to hold. hold the point of attack, create a new line of scrimmage, not get pressed onto your heels and stacked and get the line of scrimmage reset. So really just having that baseline level of play strength is going to go a long way. And that's a really kind of good way for me to eliminate guys in a sense or just kind of drop them down past a certain grade. That's one of those

things that's difficult to improve, particularly if you're coming from like a Power 5 school, just because, and if you're pretty experienced, relatively experienced, because I think it gets a little overrated when people say, yeah, when he gets to an NFL weight room, you know, just give him time. Well, I mean, oftentimes these guys are coming from weight rooms that are just as good as an NFL weight room. So, you know, if they're very young and inexperienced, then sure, maybe they can mature, but for like relatively experienced older or mid-range guys with age, yeah, if you don't, if you're not strong enough, then yeah, that's a pretty big red flag. Some of the smaller school guys, you know, obviously they are going to have a big jump

from the weight room perspective usually. So I can, there's a little more leeway there. But yeah, I think play strength is a really good kind of fundamental trait to look at for interior guys and offensive line in general. The second part of my versatility question too is, is the last two second round interior lineman the Eagles took, Cam Jurgens and Land of Dickerson were college centers who started their Eagles career at obviously offensive guard.

What traits do you look for for an interior guy who can play guard and center? Yeah, it's just interesting to look at those two. They couldn't be more different players. You know, I think clearly Juergens is a center. Although I, you know, he had some good, good moments there at guard. you know, especially before you got hurt. But, but, yeah, I mean, guard and center, I would say everything that I said about interior in terms of play strength, you know, is typically one of those, you know, foundational aspects of

being able to do that. But then center is a little different. Ideally, you would want to have seen the guy play center, which you saw with Dickerson and Juergens first. And that's, I think, just because there's a, there's a, processing element and also maybe somewhat of a personality element as well to playing center that is a little different than guard just in terms of the leadership element that is there oftentimes there with center you know being a extremely like confident intelligent guy is is not that you know it doesn't exist elsewhere but that really has to be pronounced i think at center and you know when it is typically the high level centers that i've learned over the years they have that about them, they can really kind of lead a room in a sense and lead on the field. You know, there has to be an assertiveness there.

So yeah, and that's kind of difficult to judge by film, obviously. But yeah, just I think being able to see it on film is a huge part. And then it's kind of easier to project both sides, you know, from there. I know we want to get into these guys, but since we're sort of on the topic, as far as the Eagles, when, you know, you know this Jeff Stoughtlin blocking scheme so well. and we have sort of made the point that like the idea of replacing Jason Kelsey and expecting them to just be a top five offensive line might be a little bit more easier said than done. But if you are looking for guys for like what Jeff Stoutland wants to do, is it a little bit different than what you would look for just evaluating the player as a prospect for every team in the NFL? Yeah, yes and no.

I would say no because I trust that, you know, Coach Stallan will adjust to whatever he has. Sure. You know, but yes, in the sense that, you know, just looking at them over the last 10 years or so, you know, watching what they ask their guys to do, they want a guy who can move at that position, I think ideally. So they don't have to switch up too much, you know, and at least they can keep some of those, you know, bread and butter elements in the run game in terms of getting the center, you know, on the move and letting him, you know, kind of lead with,

with his athletic ability, taking good angles, you know, intersecting targets at various levels of the field. And I think you have that guy in Cam Juergens. I mean, you know, like, that's, he's kind of the prototype for that. So I think that guy's on the roster right now, you know, for center-wise. And then guards, you know, I think typically they, they've wanted bigger guards to protect the center who's typically undersized. And I think that's kind of a similar dynamic now. You know, that's why I was just kind of, you know, unexpected in a sense to see Juergens at right guard, just because you have two kind of undersized guard, undersized guys right

next to each other. But I don't know that that'll be the case, you know, this next season. Sure. So the obvious question then, and it's, I know we're talking about the prospects, but it's combined into that is you saw Tyler Steen's film last year at right guard. He was obviously a tackle when he was at college. should the Eagles be in the market pretty early for someone who can start at right guard

next to Cam Juergens, next to Lane Johnson? Or did the film show you enough on Tyler Steen to think this is a position the Eagles can really look at more for depth than for top of the rotation? I kind of lean more so towards the ability to upgrade the position, especially with this class. You know, not that Steen can't become a, you know, a functional kind of mid-range to long-term starter, you know, switching from left tackle

to right guard is a tough transition. And I think we saw that in a lot of his kind of positions that he got himself into. It just looked, you know, kind of foreign to him, you know, some glaring losses, missing guys with his hands. And, you know, he's a big, stronger kind of guy. He kind of fits that general mold. But in this class, I think that there's going to be probably plenty of opportunity to upgrade, you know, that position and, you know, kind of bring Steen along slowly as kind of a debt piece. I think that would be kind of ideal or, you know, address it later and then get, you know, a tackle potentially to kind of sit and develop behind lane too as, you know, maybe an option. But I lean first towards getting that kind of right card, you know, in place and upgrading that

spot. So it seems like the two guys who are projected as first round caliber, interior offensive line only guys, you know, not including Fuanga or guys who might kick inside. Graham Barton from Duke and Jackson Powers Johnson from Oregon. How do you see those guys stacking up? And would you think that they would be worthy of, say,

the 22nd overall pick? Yeah, I think they're both worthy of that selection just based on, you know, film more than anything. I know there's more questions with Jackson Powers Johnson in terms of maybe some injury concerns. And then he also only did it from

one year. So, you know, that's really, I think, the main questions with him. But Barton and Powers Johnson are two of, I think, six guys that I have with true first round grades in this class and then some like fringe first, you know, high second round grades with other guys who will probably get drafted in the first. So I really like both these guys. Powers Johnson is just a little bit more of a projection, I think, just because of what I mentioned. But, you know, to go into him a little bit more, Power Shonson this year, he just kind of burst onto the scene, you know, one year starter, won the Remington Award for the top center in the country. And I think with him, it's just really easy to see the appeal there in terms of, you know, he has high level size at 6.3,

you know, 325, 330, high level movement skills, a lot of power. And he's like just an ultra-physical kind of guy. So like the foundation is just clearly there to be a high-level player in the NFL. It's just, you know, everything else. Kind of the more nuanced parts of evaluating is going to be the questions there. But, you know, great tape, didn't really get challenged much in the PAC 12. Granted, they didn't have great interior defensive linemen. I don't think this year, some okay ones, but they were stronger on the edge this year in that conference. So wasn't challenged a whole lot, but that's kind of a good and a bad thing.

Took care of business, you know, and was really dominant this year. And then he went to the senior ball and we practiced a day and a half where he got hurt. or he actually came into the week with an injury, I believe, hamstring. But a day and a half of the senior bowl, he was dominant. So, yeah, it's just really easy to like him, and I do quite a bit. And then Barton is maybe a little bit more of kind of a safe kind of guy, but he still has a lot of upside as well. He's a guy who played left tackle.

He's kind of in that mold that we were talking about off, you know, at the top, you know, where really good college left tackle, you know, doesn't really look like a tackle, has some discrepancies. and pass protection off the edge, you know, but he has all those kind of skill sets that I was talking about and traits, you know, in terms of play strength, really good hands. You know, he did play center as a freshman, I believe.

And, you know, he's a guy, one of those guys when you talk to him, when you, you know, talk to anybody about him, he seems like a guy who could truly play center long term or guard. He's probably one of two guys, I think, in this class who has real five position flexibility. so him and Troy Fottano from Washington, I think. But yeah, so I mean, I like both those guys, you know, a good bit. Outside of the top of the class players, is there a guard or a few guards who you think could step in day one for Jeff Stoutland and start?

There's probably a couple guys with a chance of doing that who I have like late second early third round grades, which for us is. like potential impact starter or high level backup potential starter grades. I think Cooper Beebe is one guy who's kind of, you know, fits somewhat of that mold in terms of play strength. That's his bread and butter. He's, you know, he's kind of, I say like kind of built like a refrigerator a little bit, very sought off frame, you know, shorter arms for sure. But I mean, he played left tackle.

He played right tackle and then, you know, played a lot of guard. he's highly intelligent in terms of football intelligence and just mental processing, see stuff, clear eyes, really processes quickly, and he's really strong. So then he has 50 plus starts. So it's like he's executed every block you would want to see. And he's done it at four or five of the positions. He's strong and he's smart. Yeah, he's not going to maybe match up great one-on-one with, you know,

the Premier three technique. in the NFL or nose tackles, you know, in terms of staying in front of them all the time. But he's a good athlete. So, yeah, he's one guy I think who could play, you know, right guard. Potentially Jordan Morgan, you know, although he's going to be kind of similar to Steen and that it would be left tackle to right guard. So, you know, and he doesn't have experience doing that. That's one guy who could potentially do it.

But I feel a little bit better about BB there at guard. And then there's a couple other guys, I think, who have a shot, you know, like Dominic Poonie is also another projection, college left tackle, but I like him. And then Christian Haynes is somebody who could potentially do it. And Christian Mahogany is another guy who could potentially do it. I have more like third round grades on them, but under coach Stowland in that situation, I wouldn't be shocked to see one of those guys be able to win a job and start. I'm going to ask you about another specific guy because this is another player who fits the prototype of older

from a non-power-five school, the sort of a bizarro profile for a player of success. Mason McCormick from South Dakota State, 64309, going to be 24 as a rookie. What can you tell us about him? Yeah, so I have closer to like a fourth round grade, fifth round grade for him.

And that's just because I just struggled to watch his film and see the inconsistency that I saw in his film from tape this season. I know he has 50 plus starts and everything. and you know, don't get me wrong. He's a good player at that level, but I didn't see a dominant player. And anytime you're looking at an FCS guy, you want to see dominance, you know, and if you don't see consistent dominance, that's typically a red flag.

And I didn't see it with his film. There's flashes of it. But I saw kind of a guy who was a little bit stiff, honestly. But then you contrast that with what he did at the Shrine game in terms of practice there. I watched most of the practice film from that. And he looked good there. You know, he had some more dominant moments. And then you see the testing, obviously, you can't ignore that, you know, an all-time great tester.

So it's like, you know, there's a little, there's some disparities there with what he actually put on film versus, you know, what he offers in terms of kind of the athletic tool upside with testing. And so I don't know. I mean, I'm lower on him than he's probably going to get drafted. It was hard to reconcile that. but from people I talk to and stuff, I know he's training with Duke Mannyweather in first go Texas, and Duke speaks very highly of him in terms of how he approaches things and all that.

So maybe he just kind of was able to flip a switch, turn a corner and do something different from Shrine on, but I don't know, that one's a little, that was one of the more difficult ones for me. One exercise, Bo and I are doing for each of these positions, but we'll do it today here is a day three guy who kind of jumps out to us. Who's your favorite day three guy with the interior offensive lineman in particular?

Yeah, there's a few really good options here. I would probably say Hunter Norzad from Penn State is a guy who really grew on me, the more I watched him. He's only played center for one year. He was a right tackle at Cornell, got his degree there in engineering, transferred to Penn State, got his master's there, and played center. and James Franklin called him, you know, one of the pillars of the offense, this, you know, prior offseason along with, you know, Olu Fushanou.

And, you know, so you kind of hear and read about him and then you watch him and he just, he moves really well. He knows how to sustain blocks at a high level. He doesn't fall off blocks easily at all. And that's just kind of one of those things that typically translates pretty well. More of kind of like a center only, but. you know, could potentially fill in a guard here and there, but he's ideally a center. But just his makeup background tape this year against, you know, Ohio State Michael Hall, I thought was good tape.

He has a lot of good tape this year. He's a guy who, you know, kind of grew on me. He didn't test. So, you know, that's one of those question marks. But I think when you watch his film enough, you could see a really good athlete. So there's a, this center class has a lot of guys I like, you know, in the day two, day three range. but he's one of the ones early day three that I like, you know, as much as anybody. I'm going to ask you about one more guy as a day three guy because as a B-O, I am honor bound to like dislike the B-E-A-U's.

We do not get along, the B-E-A-U-S. However, the B-E-A-U-X, to me, I'm okay with that. It's different enough and it's not trying to have this ridiculous pronunciation. That doesn't make sense. X, it's a little bit more phonetic. Bo Limmer from Arkansas, do we like him? Yeah, so I'm just looking at my rankings right now. Him and Norzat are basically neck and neck. I just like Norzat's tape a little bit more, but then Limmer, they're very similar, you know, in terms of play style, even build to a degree.

So they're very similar sort of players. But, you know, Limer did test and he tested out of this world in some stuff, you know, 36-half-inch vert and he's a weight room. kind of legend at Arkansas. And I think some of that translates. He's a little bit more lean and kind of angular than Norzad. Norzad is a little bit more compact. Limmer's a little bit more just lean and taller.

So he doesn't have quite as much, I don't think play strength, even though he has kind of the weight room accolades and things like that. But he's very like ranging and springy in his movements and explosive. He's like kind of a twitched up blocker. So I do like him a good amount center only, I think, as well. I'm not sure how much versatility is there to play guard. But yeah, he's a guy, him in, him in Norzad, man. If you're early day three and you need a center, you want somebody to at least come in and compete for the job.

I think both those guys are going to kind of give you similar things. Okay. You know, good? Yeah, this was great. I enjoyed this. Brandon, thank you so much. Tell our listeners where they can read more of your expert insight. Yeah, so you could go to trench warfare.substack.com and you could subscribe there, support my work,

do a lot of different things with offensive and defensive line. And then if you want to read my scouting reports this year, just kind of search in Twitter, Google, just any player's name and bleacher report along the offensive line. And I'll have a scouting report on them. So, yeah, those are the two main spots. And then you know what? I will ask you one more thing because having been and being a very happy subscriber to the Trench Warfare substack. I know that you track the like the high quality sacks and all this stuff. Bryce Huff, a player who has stood out to you in the past, what do you make of Bryce Huff as a new member of the Eagles?

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Bryce Huff. And you know, he's been more of kind of a rotational kind of guy, you know, generally, you know, I think he played a little bit more this year. But, you know, efficient past rush. highly explosive, a little undersized, but not sure how much you're going to get, you know, necessarily against the run, but that's kind of secondary anyway. But in terms of, you know, a guy you could put in a wide nine alignment and just let him go off the edge and just give tackles fits, I mean, he's going to be able to challenge all

level of tackle, you know, just because of his explosiveness and his quickness, the ability to win all three ways, I think, in a sense, a little bit underrated power as well, just because of how quick he is. So he actually kind of reminds me of Trent Cole, you know, back in the day. So I think there's some similarities there. And it's just kind of funny that he went to Philly. But yeah, I just think he's a really good player. And I'm really excited to see him in kind of an expanded role, you know,

which we'll see how expanded it gets. But yeah, a lot of juice off the edge, that's for sure. Brandon, thank you so much. Everybody check out the trench warfare substack the Bleacher Report rankings. Thanks again, Brandon. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. Appreciate it. Of course. All right, before we get going, let's talk a little bit more about our friends, Zach, at

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Download the GameTime app today. Last minute tickets, lowest price, guaranteed. Zach, I've got a trivia question for you. Yeah, let's do it. love trivia. Okay. You famously spent the couple days last year with Jason Kelsey at the broadcast boot camp. Yep.

Chase Daniel just tweeted a picture of the this year's broadcast boot camp roster. Okay. Chase Daniel excluded. Can you name the other Eagle or X Eagle who is among that group? Oh, I know. You already know. How I know Brandon Graham's there. Okay.

Well, you got it. Was that, yeah, I keep track of Brandon Graham's whereabouts. That sounds very creepy. Would you care to explain? So people aren't concerned for Brandon Graham's safety. Okay. I mean, Brandon Graham is a great guy, a family guy, like, you know, and, you know, we're at similar stages in life, right? And in addition to that, he...

This is your last year on the job? No, no, no, no. I hope not. I mean, unless you know something I don't. And the other thing is Brandon is particularly active on social media. So,

you know, sometimes like I don't want people to know where I am on a given Saturday. Brandon has no problem with you knowing he was at Lego Land last weekend. He was, I think he was part of a promotion for him to be there. Of course. I know,

you know, he did a little bit yesterday with with Ross Tucker, but I think Ross is out kind of working with the former players at the broadcast boot camp. And not just that, but I keep track of that event. I think it's an awesome event. I've been to it. You mentioned last year with Jason Kelsey.

Actually, when I was at the Star Ledger, I went there when it used to be at NFL film was right across the river. I know my geography. I have a Mia Coppa to come for your four geography. But yeah, it's a great event. it's awesome for these players and you see like some of these guys shouldn't be this talented at at so many things or i shouldn't say shouldn't be like it's unfair um you know i i do this for a living and i stumble over my words from time to time um you get some guys who like they they do a game

and it's boom it's seamless so um and then some guys need some work right wow but that's the that's the great thing about the boot camp yeah i mean they're better at our jobs than we would be at theirs no doubt about that well i think you're really i think you're pretty darn quote at your job so i mean you're an awesome host i've said this best host in the city but but if i had to play on an NFL football team i would get i would get destroyed oh yeah they're better i thought you said they're better at our jobs yeah they're better at our jobs than we would be at theirs oh well absolutely yeah okay i see what you mean there i didn't want you to think by an order of several magnitudes by no means if i think of chase daniel sat in the seat he'd be a better host than you're you're you know what i

been as good as a quarterback as Chase Stanele, actually. I'd take it back. Chase was a good quarterback and a good guy in the locker room. I always enjoy talking to Chase. There you go. And a full sentence All-Star, just like Jackson Powers Johnson. Really one of the best. Dynamite transition.

As a full-sentence guy, as we've seen in a while. I'll give my quick Miacolpa here. Geography, which actually used to be a strength of mine before I came on this show. Yesterday. Or so you thought. Yeah. I had poor memory yesterday. That doesn't strike me as geography.

Yeah, that was just memory. That was memory. I conflated two things. So if you go to Detroit, if you stay in the Detroit, the Detroit Marriott and the Renaissance Center and you look across the river, that's Windsor. You see the casinos, okay? I have not gone from Detroit to the Windsor casinos. But when you're in Buffalo and you go across the water, it's Niagara Falls. And it's literally, it's like Niagara Falls, Canada. That's where I went. So when I said I was in Windsor yesterday. No, I conflated the casinos across from the U.S. major city in Canada.

I apologize to our Canadians who watch, our Windsor our Windsor our Windsor officiados. I do recall I was at a, I covered an Eagles Lions Thanksgiving

game in 2000 and 15 ships last year and had like time to kill the night before and I wanted to go to Windsor but I didn't have my passport and I forget the like specifics of of of of if you need your passport to go there anyways I didn't go gamble that night so but I know a lot of people at the university of Michigan you know they have fun nights in Windsor thank you for clearing that up yes very important well it's at the record straight it's important to set the record straight and yeah you got to be

honest when you when when you're wrong I'm up to it right away all right um let's talk just big picture here do you think that it is possible that the Eagles would use 22 or a first round pick, let's say they trade back a few spots on an interior offensive line only prospect? No, I, well, possible, yes, but no, I don't see that happening. More likely I see them taking a tackle who can play guard than an interior. Well, we agree that's more likely. But no, I'm saying I don't think they take, first off, I don't think they take a center.

My girl, Jason Kelsey's replacement's Cam Jurgens. I agree. Cam Juergens was drafted to be Jason Kelsey's replacement.

He played guard because they had to put him somewhere. Exactly. Yeah. He's a center. He's going to play center. So you're talking about

right guard. So do I think they take a right guard only prospect? A Jackson Powers Johnson type. Yes. A Graham Barton type. Yes. No,

I don't anticipate that. Now, it is certainly possible that they take a guard or they take a tackle who plays guard and then they liked that guy so much a guard that they don't end up moving him, right?

I mean, when the Eagles drafted Lane Johnson, the plan was for him to eventually play left tackle. And they're like, he's the best right tackle in the NFL, keep him there. When they drafted Landon Dickerson, they didn't know if he'd be a potential Kelsey replacement. I think they really liked how he looked at left guard. They drafted Cam Juergens.

They were keeping Dickerson at left guard. So it's certainly plausible that like the Eagles take, whether it's Fultano, whether, I mean, you know, I keep talking about J.C. Laytham. That's my guy there. They take someone there, they put them at right guard, and the first two years, they're like, this guy is awesome. Let's not mess with a good thing.

But I don't think they would draft someone with the intent of this guy being your starting guard for the next five to eight to ten years. I tend to agree. I mean, it's on the table as like what could be the most shocking or like juiceless pick they could make in the first round just because it is an offensive lineman. But, I mean, I think that they know that the history. of like first round guards is not necessarily great. It's not the best use of resources.

There are more pressing needs and also better bets long term. It is a much different conversation to say a tackle because you're getting this guy who is a valuable player and there's a path to playing time than a guy who is just a guard. But I don't think that it is off the table as if they don't go, let's say they go defense in the first round with one of those two second round picks. Sure.

If the best offensive linemen on the board for them is an interior guy, I don't think that that is crazy. Oh, I agree in the second round. I mean, the last two offensive linemen they taken in the second round were interior guys. Now, this is like another big picture conversation of at some point, like are you investing too many resources? Is it, you know, diminishing returns? Because if you've got four great players on the offensive line,

shouldn't you be able to get away with, you know, having a fourth round pick? a fifth round pick play that position and still be good or and you've got jeff stoutland or do you overinvest and make sure that it's a strength it's a i'm sure a philosophical conversation that they have all the time i would i would not love spending a second round pick again on an interior offensive lineman after having done it you know two of the past three years but certainly we know they care about it yeah and by the way we had these free agency shows when we we discussed what offensive guard salaries were on the open market this year. This is a position that they're valuing

in the league. And when you talk about value, you're saying like the average salaries, the high, the high watermark salaries, they are, they're going up at offensive guard. Like, this is a position that is becoming more valuable around the league. The same way you're seeing defensive tackles, like continuing to get paid. I think I don't want to sound like the cliche, you know, um, Sometimes you see footballanos who just give like this one general point and you see, oh, you're trying to protect that interior, you know, pressure because then the quarterback can't step up in the pocket, but you are seeing. That's the thing about Tom Brady, right?

That the one way that Tom Brady can really get to him is pressure up to me. Yeah, but from the side he's going to step up. But if you can get to him up the middle, then you got a shot against Tom Brady. But my point being that like you always, there was a time, for instance, when left tackles were considered much more important than right tackles. And I think now you're seeing that distinction is not being, it's not as pronounced, right? There was a time when guards were considered more fungible or at least not as valuable. And I think like high-end guards are definitely more valuable now.

Now it is a position where you can find replacement level players later in the draft. But the high-end, I mean, Lana Dickerson is getting $20 million, right? The top centers, I mean, Jason Kelsey was the best center in Indiana. NFL made $14 million, right? That's why when people said, like, are they going to play Leonard Dickerson at center? I said, follow the money. They didn't pay Lana Dickerson 20 plus million to play center. They paid them that to play left guard. So, yeah, so I certainly wouldn't put it past them. As far as the depth chart, when the right guard spot, we talked about this at the owners meetings. This is, this is wide open. And we don't want to put too much into the fact that Nick Siriani didn't mention

Tyler Steen, but you also don't want to totally ignore the fact that, like, he, he wasn't front of mind when right guard came up. They have Matt Hennessy, who has center guard experience, third round pick a few years ago. Do we have any Hennessy left? Was it all gone? But, but, you know, and then there's some other guys, like, you know, Brett Tooth has played center for them, as has played all. Yeah. I mean, like, they had, I mean, they have got, you know, when we did our futures contract game, you saw some guys there. But the Eagles need depth on the offensive line.

They're going to take interior offensive line in this draft, I would imagine. They're going to take a tackle in this draft. Fred Johnson's not going to be their top tackle. Now, if you take over under two and a half offensive line been drafted by the Eagles this year. Under. I'll go two.

You go two. One tackle, one interior. Or a tackle who can play guard, that kind of thing. The other thing, too, is like, is Tyler Steen's this, he's this chess piece, if you will, right? I thought it might be puffery to call him in Chespeas. But if Tyler Steen's your sixth guy, he can be your backup guard, your backup tackle, right? I mean, he better be your sixth guy.

So, yeah, I can't imagine he's your eighth, right? Right. So that's kind of where they stand there. Oh, look at that. Here it comes Chris. Chris, thanks for coming in him. Chris got the Hennessy. Look at that.

We see, you know, we never finished this little pint or whatever it is. You want some, Zach? No, I'm good. Thank you. So yeah, so clearly this is a position. This is an important show to bookmark and watch because, I mean, they're going to take offensive. They're going to take off. They need interior offensive line help. They sure do.

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Visit truefantravel.com to learn more and find your next adventure. All right. I was trying to help you out. But you landed the plane. No, I was looking at an email when you were looking at. I know you were looking at an email. I saw the email you were looking at.

Sorry about that. It got excited. That's okay. It's exciting. or did you like those options? Yeah, much better. Yeah. I like them too.

Yeah. I hate being so cryptic here. That's okay. They'll know what. They'll know someday. They'll know someday, yes. All right. Super chat from Jack, who says,

turkeys on Juergens is the starting center. I would say barring injury, I would put a hundred turkeys on it. Yes, 100 turkeys barring injury, for sure. How about with injury? I mean, I'm not predicting. For week one, it's going 91.

Yeah, let's go 51. Really? You call him injury prone. No, no, no. I was going with his number. So that's why. You're saying he's going to get, he's going to get back.

100%. 100%. Not predicting injury upon anybody. Okay. All right, Zach. You know, you said yesterday. Yeah, I shouldn't have said that. And not your favorite position to,

not necessarily not your favorite position, but you're less confident. Less confident in that. You know, I think I'm leaning on Brandon Thorne here. I'm looking when I look at these guys much more at the profile than trying to necessarily trust my eyes. Play strength is the other thing that I feel like you can get a bit of a sense of. You know, I don't trust myself to be like this guy's got better hands necessarily than

somebody else. But can you move people? That's something that is important, obviously, and like layman like us can't identify. But who are some of the guys that you like from this interior offensive line class beyond maybe the top guys? Beyond the top of the class. So Tanner Bordellini from Wisconsin. Delicious.

Might make some tonight. Tenor Bordellini, who has, he's played multiple spots at Wisconsin, like, athletically. There's a lot of things that you like there. When you look at the spider chart jumps off. It's like an athletic center, short shuttle in particular, that's the Kelsey one, or a big old beefy guard. So this is a versatile player. Thanks to Dane Bruehler for kind of breaking down the positions. 13 starts at center, eight starts at left guard, three starts at right guard, three starts at right tackle, one start at tight end.

One of the, I mean, there are so many levels of important work done by Dane and like helpful things, but the, I do find the offensive line start breakdown to be one of the, the hidden gems of the, you know, what is one of the great books made every year. Absolutely. So, so, so Bordellini is, is someone who stood out to me based on the athletic profile. file and when you're watching a center there's there's like certain plays you can see where you say all right that that that that guy's different and he was the center last year at wisconsin and you could see that um now there's a name i'm going to give you here and this this might like be on on tight to go with a player from the national champions but if you're willing to be patient zack zinter is coming at a discount okay um he he broke his leg against ohio state so you squared Zach Zinter was awesome for Michigan.

No, he wasn't awesome. He was awesome. Ah, okay, awesome with a Z. Yeah. Yeah. And. Was that worth derailing the conversation? No.

So did it come into my mind? Yes. I don't want to compare every injured player to Land of Dickerson because the Eagles took Sidney Jones in the second round and St. Jones was never the same player after the injury. But there were times like before Leonard Dickerson's injury or or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, let's just go back to the pre-draft going into the 20-21 draft. You kept hearing, well, if Landon Dickerson wasn't injured, he might be a first-round pick, right?

And the Eagles kind of thought that way. But if a guy's projected to be back early in their rookie season, how much time are they really missing, right? If you're making an investment for four years or more, like the Eagles got a steal in Landon Dickerson. Now it was early in the second round, but they got a high-level play. in the second round who started he was he was ready by week two he starts you know week two that year um and so zach zinter is someone who if if he's if he would have been a third round pick a second or third round pick let's say before the injury and he breaks his leg in December against ohio state or november against ohio state and then you think that he'll be ready to go early in the

year and you can get them in the fourth round that strikes me as really good value for a player who was awfully valuable at michigan was highly productive or one of the best offensive lines in the country um and you just hear glowing remarks off the field too and real good size profile as as as well so zack zinzer is someone that i wanted to point out for that reason there's a guy in the chat who was saying he's betting he says a thousand percent that he has more tabs than me oh god Gosh, don't do this. No way. Bose tabs make me uncomfortable.

First off, that computer must have the best processing speed of any laptop I've ever seen. Andy Reed's mustache, go ahead. Count your tabs. I will count mine. And you put in the chat how many you have. And then I will write down how many I have. And we're going on our system here. You're going to challenge.

You're going to come with the king. Let's see how it goes. I have 10 windows. Now I'm going to have to go through the windows and count the tabs. Okay. While you're counting that, while you're counting that, I do want to flex on on some draft work that I,

or some prep work that I did because you and I split up the position. Please do. And we're kind of, we were going to talk about Howie's history. And interior offensive line. Okay. Howie has, has taken,

uh, if you include Tyler Steen in this group and Jack Terescoe in this group and Matt Pryor in this group, he's taken Tyler Steen, Cam Jorgans, Landon Dickerson, Jack Driscolliskelkel, Matt Pryor, Isaac Sam Maloo,

Brandon Washington, Danny Watkins, Joey in Vandervild and Jason Kelsey. What jumps out and you made this point when you had some of Howie's data a few weeks ago is the amount of times he uses day two picks on interior guys. Tyler Steen, Cam Juergens, Landa Dickerson, Isaac S. Malu are examples of that. Age here stands out. I should have cleaned up my tabs last night.

Now you pointed this out when you were talking to Brennan Thorne that this is a position where the guys tend to be older, right? and look it makes sense there's there's not a lot of like underclass guards that come out you don't see a lot of 21 year guards that come out but if you go based on their rookie year age so by December 31st of their

of their rookie season the Eagles have not drafted a guard under the age of 23 or an interior offensive linemen under the age of 23 under Howie Rosebich the yeah so it's like like that's that's consistent here so I wouldn't even give you the mean because Danny Watkins

raises the mean but all these guys are older for the most part or 23 24 years old and jason kelsey's like the outlier of outliers here right sub 300 pounds you don't typically see that 32 and a half inch arms he had the shortest arms of of anyone here but he turns out to be a hall famer um but they've been so the age is is a consistent thing uh arm length doesn't really jump out danny walkins was kind of the outlier in terms of 34 and a quarter inch arms was certainly also the outlier in age. Jason Kelsey was terrific with the with the broad jump at 110 inch broad jump and then we all know how Jason Kelsey ran and how some of these other I mean Cam Juergens the way he he ran jumps out he had a 10-yard

split of 1.71 so those are a few that uh but but the age thing really struck me and I imagine that specific to where that stands out with with with guards but it's worth noting here that's good good research thank you nicely done uh i have my number yeah doesn't matter do we wait do it's actually lower than i expected what's your number i have 10 windows now people are wondering about the windows part of that is because if i'm i you know i'm working on different spreadsheets i'm pulling from the beast i'm putting in i want to be able to see multiple things at once so a lot of the windows are one or two tabs then i've got my main window which has 42.

My number's 72. That's actually not as high as I thought. So I might lose. Oh my gosh. 34 windows and 455 tabs for Andy Reed's mustache. Good for him. What kind of processing could be... I bow.

I bow to you. Well, there are extensions where you can... Like it keeps the tabs in the background not working, but I also see Defop Jan McQuade asking, I am a Chrome man for now, unless somebody offers me something better. but yeah so what what messed me up with the ad read was i have a chrome for and he reads mustache what's doing with all those tabs i have a chrome profile for my all p hl y account and then i have a chrome profile for my gmail account yeah that'll mess you up so when i'm jumping so i can't see the ad copy unless i open up the other current profile yeah got to fix that well i did i actually did do

some tab pruning last last night so you know but i still would not have i was still not would not have won. So congratulations. Nicely done. Who jumps out to you? Andy reads mustache. No, that's unbelievable. No, from a guard perspective. I like,

I like Bordalini for the reasons you said. I like, I like that athleticism. I like, I do like Christian Haynes. Okay. Yukon, who, you know, Yukon bias. I told you. Not he's not as super bias,

but who Brandon Thorne talked about. Pulling up the, the centers here. Limmer, I was actually like, I'm with Brandon that like, I don't, I didn't necessarily see the play strength that I would have liked to see.

And then Dominic Pune, who we talked about, I did kind of like at the Senior Bowl. Those are my main guys. There was one guy. You liked your guy, Cedric Van Pren Granger. Yeah, I mean, come on, starting center at Georgia. Yeah, I could you not. That's, that's my type.

And he was just Van Pran, I believe, when he was at Georgia. I think the Granger thing came on recently. It could be wrong there. What a name, Christian Mahogany. What a great name. Yeah. There was one player that jumped out to me for a Boat Wolf special that he was so old that Dane didn't even have the age down because of, I think it's Keaton Bills. And Keaton Bills. Oh, another full, another full sentence. So, yeah, Keaton Bills. He did his, you know, he did three years of a mission in Honduras.

And then he redshirted and then he had a pandemic short in season. then he missed two games and he was and then he played two seasons. So there's there's five seasons of college football here. Then there's three seasons on the on the mission. So he is someone you would describe as an old. That is that is an old. Is an old. One more guy for you.

I'm going to get the pronunciation right here. Satawa LaMaya. Satawa LaMaya from Utah. 64319 at Utah played right guard and right tackle. Big, strong, powerful man. some questions about his past blocking, but that's a, that's a player who I also like to watch it.

Yeah, I was, there were a few guys here who transferred from Ivy League schools. You, you're, I know, I was saying when he said that the state guy transferred from Cornell, I could see you sort of moving around a little bit. Like Nick Garjulo at South Carolina. He transferred over from Yale.

Okay. So you got some, you had some bright guys here in this class. The Ivy League doesn't impress you. No. Not on its own. Not without knowing the guys. How many dumb people go to Ivy League schools?

A lot. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. There's a number of Campbell Award finalists in the offensive line group. Because they love soup. Now the Campbell Award goes, it's like the academic Heisman. Yeah.

Okay. By the way, you know who was once a candidate for the academic Heisman. Myron Role. Yes, myron Role, who I really admired when he was at Florida State. But my guy from Stanford and then Oklahoma last week, Walter Rouse. Okay. Yes, Walter Rouse. So the performance surgery guy?

Yes, exactly. So yeah, when you had the Campbell Award in the college profile, I did all that research actually before the Beast came out. Okay. That's something I like. Okay. And how many of those guys have gone on to really successful NFL career? I would have to, yeah. While you talk, I will tell you the successful Campbell award winners.

Okay. Sounds like somebody's playing some ping pong in there. Ah, that's fight music for you. So the Campbell award winner last year in 2013 was Bo Nix. Jack Campbell won it Charlie Kohler won it Bradley White won it Justin Herbert want it

Christian Wilkins won it Justin Herbert okay Yeah Micah Kaiser when he was at UVA John Yershal of course I mean brilliant Is it Yershal? Your show what's it was?

I thought it was Urshall I could be wrong I never said it out loud Yeah Barrett Jones had a brief stint with the Eagles Sam macho brother of Emmanuel Ocho Tim Tebow

Alex Mack Tim Tebow one of it? Tim Tebow won it, yes. You think Tim Tebow was the best student in college football? So the Campbell Award is the best combination of academics, community service, and on-field performance. It is considered by many to be the academic high-old.

Yeah, but now we're conflating all of these different things. Once you get Tebow in there, I'm no longer taking it as gospel that these people are smart. Michael Munez when he was at Tennessee. Craig Crenzel. You remember him? Craig Crenzel, of course. Remember that sports illustrated story when he was in the lab outfit in the SIP piece? That jumps out to me.

Chad Pennington. Matt Sinchko, Peyton Manning. How about that? Former Eagles quarterback Danny Hoyer. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Bobby Hoeing. So, yeah, you got a few here. Sounds like over the years they've had a lot of preference for white quarterbacks.

They've had people from all different types of backgrounds on here. Yes. Before we go, Zach, I know that you wanted, I'm going to give you the floor here. I know you wanted to say something. O.J. Simpson has passed away. What did you want to say to the audience? I was not preparing something for O.J. Simpson. Oh, I thought you had lots to say.

I thought you wanted to cover the entirety of his life. No, I mean, I don't know where to go with this one. My condolences to his family. It is probably my lasting legacy that whenever somebody dies, I get the OJ dead. And what's the origin story to that? The origin story to that is an ex-girlfriend. of mine.

Flex. Is that a flex? It was like her favorite thing to like let people know when people died. And so like we hadn't talked in which was like after college, we hadn't talked in like years. And then all of a sudden you just get I just get a text. Bernie MacDette.

And what was your response? I don't remember. Oh, okay. It's been, I told that story on the podcast. I believe I told that story on the postgame show from the Patriots preseason game in 2018. Sounds very pertinent to discuss in that postgame show of 2018. And so, yeah, now whatever.

I remember that game. Nick Foles struggled at that game. I remember writing. It's a preseason game. Yeah. Oh, really? I remember it as a Nate Sudfeld through like a backfooted floater touchdown pass. Yeah, I remember staying in Boston and driving down.

There you go. Bernie Mac, rest in peace. That'll do it for this episode of the P.H.L.Y. Eagles podcast. Big show tomorrow. We are talking. wide receivers. We're going to have a special guest calling in, who may or may not be a wide receiver expert,

and the professor, Dane is, is going to join us as well. So a very exciting show for tomorrow. Could the Eagles? Could that be the surprise pick? Could they go like a Brian Thomas at 22? Would that knock your knickers off? There's some receivers that I love.

I'm ready to talk wide receivers. I've been waiting for wide receiver talk since the college football season. actually since last year when we had Coach Flynn on and I said, oh, next year's receiver class. I always ask about an end. There's some guys who I.

But isn't every year next year's receivers class? Yeah, pretty much. But man, there's some guys this year who I love. And there's a guy in the second round who I think would be who's getting, who's not getting the attention he deserves and a different year would go round one. Hmm. Good tease.

Good tease. You got me hooked. Yes. Look forward to tomorrow's episode. to find out who that is. Wait, I just have to say real quick, sorry if you, the chat is saying they heard a female voice,

we're getting the feed from the Flyers Skype show. So that was not me. That was, they were randomly hearing, hearing flyer stats. But yeah, they can go check that out later, but sorry about that.

Joy, whenever you want to chime in, though, your voice is part of the show. Thank you guys. Should we talk Flyers? Torch, man. Come on.

Torch, man. Oh, boy. That'll do it for this episode of the PHOI Flyers. podcast for all of us here. We thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. We will talk to you tomorrow. And as always, we love you.