PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - The allure of Eagles Gossip, with Defector’s Dan McQuade & Kelsey McKinney

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Time for a departure from our regularly scheduled programming, as we welcome Dan McQuade and Kelsey McKinney, author of the book “You Didn’t Hear This From Me.” As Eagles sickos, we can all appreciate delicious appeal of Eagles gossip, whether it be the relationship between star players, awkward front office dynamics and much more. Plus, Dan comes armed with an array of classic bootleg Eagles shirts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello everybody and welcome to the P-H-O-Y Eagles show on a beautiful Wednesday, a fun one coming up. Bowulf and Dan McQuaid in studio. Kelsey McKinney joining us remotely. Kelsey, thank you so much for joining us. This is, I believe, my best shot, probably as cool as my wife will ever think I am to have you on the show. So thank you for joining us. I love to make people look cool to their wives.

So it's a pleasure to be here. And Dan, thank you so much. You've got the ELG S-E-S-E-S hoodie. I do. I do. sweatshirt that you're rocking? Yeah. I have a couple ELG, S-E-S-E-S pieces of gear.

This one is, this one was absurdly expensive. It's by Boathouse, which is a Philly company. Yeah, I'm sure everyone can see this and me doing it, which is a Philly company that makes like, you know, like if you played for her sinus rugby in the 90s, your gear would be, yeah, would be, I don't know if our sinus had a rugby team in the 90s. But like your gear would probably be from Boathouse because they make very nice stuff. And it's right here in like Juniata Kensington.

And it's made in, made in USA stuff. They've since trying to be more of a consumer focused forward company. And they released an ELGS. Sure. and the letters are nicely sewn on. And their pre-neck sweatshirts are really comfortable. I mean, what, I mean, what advertising for that? Yeah, this is what you came here for.

Discussions of Philadelphia businesses and, yes. Yeah, the history of what you might wear as a, as a rugby player in the 90s for your like warm-ups. Sure, of course. So the concede of the show today, a few things. First of all, Kelsey, you have this wonderful book that is out. You didn't hear this for me. sure that you are in the middle of like talking about the book you got to sell the book i don't know how talked out you are but we will try to give it a bit of a sports spin and an and an eagle spin uh we also want to

just get to like your eagles fandom because i know that that dan of course is like uh you know from the womb eagles fan you are a little bit later to it and so there are some bits of eagles lore dan that i think you want to share with not just kelsey but the larger eagles audience yeah i would uh i would be happy to share some you've also got some you've also got some you are mr eagles bootleg yes and so you have brought some goodies for us i share as well which we do have some eagles t-shirt here that i will share um what i'd like to share with with some some people is maybe eagles lore that they don't know either um i do a lot of searching of old newspapers and i uh i found i feel like i'm always finding stories and it's like, wow, this is like a great moment in Philly fan history or,

oh, this is a terrible moment in Philadelphia fan history. How has it been forgotten either way? Here's a thing from the Inquirer in 1972. An angry gang of Eagles fans surrounded the owner's limousine on the veteran stadium parking lot after the Eagles stole a six-six tie with the Cardinals because Jim Bocken missed a short field goal. The ugly mob cursed Toes and his companion, Betsy Rubin. They rocked the limousy. Betsy cried. It was vivid proof for Toast of how pro football stirs the emotions in Philadelphia. I should have used a different exit, Toast said later.

You guys caused it. The first newspaper accounts hadn't hit the streets when the mob swarmed around Toes' car, but he still blamed the attack on the writers. I like that in this like note, it makes it seem like that the newspaper, it seems like TOS is alleging that the newspaper writers like told people to surround his car and pound it. And then this, this like the defense, like the accounts hadn't hit the streets. So it seems like that the writers maybe did tell people to go back in his car.

It was just afterwards. It was just after it actually happened. The addition of Betsy cried because I'm like, could you see her through the, through the window? Like, how do you know? Betsy cried that just the, just the two word sentence is what struck me as well. I mean, what, you know, so so evocative. And also, I mean, take a step. Can you imagine if, if Jeffrey Lurie was leaving, you know, the link and was in his limo was getting, you know, banged on by a bunch of Eagles fans because they tied the bills or whatever it is?

Like, I can't believe there was an incident involving the. Eagle's owner and a car. And it wasn't Norman Brayman who made his his fortune in the used car business. It's like, yeah, right, like how were fans able to get into, you know, it's that like parking lot under the stadium, I guess, is where the owner would have been. Now that I think about it, I waited for like autographs when I was a little kid for players, for players there. So I guess you could just like get it.

get down there and someone recognized Leonard Toast. I have another Leonard Toast story. So while you pull that up, Kelsey, why don't you tell us your journey to Eagles fandom and Philly sports fandom in general? Sure, I would love to. I am from Texas originally and I grew up not an NFL fan. Like we were an NCAA family only. I only cared about college football.

And so I had no NFL affiliations. And then I lived in D.C. briefly. And I was like, well, I'm not adopting this team, obviously. And then I moved to Philadelphia where I intend to live the rest of my life until I die. And I learned that the Eagles have a song that you get to sing after they score touchdowns. And I was like, oh, my God, it's just like college football. And so I immediately got locked in. And so I am a new fan and I own that that I do not.

I do not have the credentials of a long term fan, but I will one day. Dan, you are, I mean, we're open armed here. Yeah, absolutely. There's no, there's no garden. And Eagles fan. I mean, like, certainly it makes it, so it's not all like last season, Kelsey. There are, I've been here for three years.

The Eagles don't usually win the Super Bowl. What a roller coaster. Although, my wife is like three out of the last seven years, they've been to the Super Bowl. Yeah, it's insane. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's, that's true. They are like good now. It's really weird to think of that as someone who was around, you know, who, I mean, I didn't see the worst of the Eagles.

You know, that would be like in the, in the 60s and early 70s. But, you know, the Eagles were inferior to Washington, the Giants, and Dallas when I was a kid, right? Like those teams won the Super Bowl three, like three consecutive, four consecutive seasons. Those teams won the Super Bowl. And so I always thought it was like, oh, it's like the Eagles are just like behind these teams. And now like the Giants like basically kicked the Eagles ass for 50 years. And the Eagles have been so good against them since 2000 that they now have like a winning record by like six or seven. in games against against and i don't think like there there is nothing less scary to eagles fans than

every other team in the nfc east right now yeah even even though the commanders went to the nfc championship game i feel like there's like an expected come down for them yeah so yeah it is a good division to be in yeah it right it feels like they're in the nfc south now you know or yeah south south is the one that's always like terrible this this super bowl has been weird a little bit i I think Les captured us very well in a column that's on all p.hly.com right now if you become a diehard, which is that like, you know, 2017, 2018, that was like, you know, the exorcism, you know, the first one ever. This one, like, you climb so much for it. And then, like, the NFL calendar just moves on so quickly that it's like we have not soaked it up quite as much. It feels like

everything that they accomplished. One of the best teams of all time. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've watched the highlights many times since, since, uh, the Super Bowl and they've gone back for Super Bowl, uh, 52 as well, you know, you got to mix it up. I was watching the 2003 Phillies yearbook earlier today because I was

discussing, because it was a Wednesday. Because it was a Wednesday. Yeah. And I was like, because I was discussing the, the home run that Todd Pratt, uh,

hit to beat the, the Red Sox that the Phillies put out a piece of merchandise that was like a bottle opener that played Scott Graham, and John Crux call of Todd Pratt's home run. I don't. Oh, my God. I don't know how that is a piece of merchandise, but I did buy,

I did buy the like Bick lighter Eagle Super Bowl champions. Okay. Six lighter set. So I guess like every, like anything can be a piece of, of Eagles merchandise. Although I cannot buy, I'm,

my address is banned from the Eagles pro shop from all, fanatics. Don't say your address on air. I don't know if it's like because we've made fun of Michael Rubin, but every time I try to order something from the Eagles

Pro Shop, it gets, yeah, I get like a sorry, your order and like I have my wife to it and it was like, sorry, your order cannot be processed. So it's my address. I think sometimes my address gets like blocked because it begins with one, two, three.

And so it seems like it's like one, two, three, fake street. Like, you know, but, but it's, it's not. Like, it's a real address. So. Very specific complaint. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's my, that's my very specific.

That's actually the only reason I came on the show so I could talk about how. I was not able to buy the Eagles. Well, I can, since Zach is not here, I can say Michael Rubin, I don't like you either. So just, just have that for the record. Oh, if Zach met. Michael Ruby. It's three of us. Yeah, there we go.

So excited. I mean, Kelsey, for a three-year arc, just thinking about it as like, as jumping in, that's pretty good. You get like 2020 feeling like you maybe joined a bandwagon, but then the heartbreak. Then you get, you know, a true Philadelphia disaster. And then you get getting to be the underdog and coming out on top in, in this season. That's pretty good arc. It's extremely cocky, my first year here, because we went into the fall.

And I was like, every team's going to win the change. championship my first year in Philadelphia because the Phillies were in the World Series. The union was in the championship. It was like literally all the teams that I was like, oh my God, I'm good luck. I did it. And then in fact, I was not. So it's good to be reminded. I think that's right.

All right. What he got for us? So my other Leonard Toe story is, you know, he was going to move the team in the I sort of want to know more about Betsy Rubin. But, uh, yeah, I sort of put her name in, in, uh, my old. old newspapers search. In fact, real socialite name. So he was,

you know, going to move the team and he was trying to be secretive about it, but the news broke somehow. I think the people, he was going to move him to Phoenix,

and I believe that the, the, the, a Phoenix reporter broke, broke the story. And, you know, people were talking about it. And these two guys,

uh, Rob Van Deddy, and, uh, and Barry Martin were leaving the spectrum after a Sixers game and we're like, meh, let's go to his house and tell him not to move the team. So they went to his house on the main line. They, you know, knocked a couple times.

When I interviewed, I forget who it was. I interviewed both of them. And one of them was like, yeah, it was 11 p.m. We figured he was watching action news. And they, so they left him a note. it says Leonard. We were here to see you at 11 p.m. 12, 12, 84. We just wanted to talk about moving our team.

Our is like underlying twice. Don't do it. You know you couldn't possibly sleep at night. Go birds. Philadelphia birds. And they sign their name. Philadelphia birds. And so they were 22-year season ticket holders.

And like the cops showed up. And like these two people were ready to go to jail just so they could tell the owner like, do not move the team. I mean, it feels like they were successful. Yeah, they were. Yeah, it worked. That's the first instance I can find of somebody writing Go Birds. Oh, really?

Yeah. I mean, I've said it. Sure. Before. But that's the first like time I can find someone saying it. And just so I have my chronology right, that was before or after the Betsy Rubin incident. This was after the Betsy Rubin. This is after.

Okay. So, I mean, toes. I mean, listen, I'm not against, I'm not against the fan base going up against the billionaire owner, but it is very funny that he goes from he can't leave the stadium to now he can't even be in his own home. Yes. I don't know.

You know what? This is a social contract that you're signing. If you're not holding up your end of the bargain, maybe you should know that that's on the table. Or you should get like a fence. Like, you know, like I'm not, I'm not for. Yeah, like I'm not for. I don't, you know, like I would never live in a neighborhood like with an HOA.

But like if you're a super rich person who might get people to come to your house at 11 p.m. Because you're going to do something that's going to piss a ton of people off. You should probably have some sort of gate or else, you know, people are going to come to your house. It's also funny because it's like unclear to me actually if the note is meant to be threatening or not. Like, yes, these people were willing to go to jail, but the note itself is so subdued. It's like, please do not move the team. We will be mad. XOXO birds fans.

And it's like, Philadelphia Birds. It's like, what if he had answered? Like, were they, it's equally possible that they were going to kidnap him or that they were like, we've brought beers and need to talk. I like that. And it's also there, yeah, there's some plausible deniability in, in the note itself. It's like we just wanted to have a nice conversation. with Leonard.

You know, they start with Leonard. So there's a familiarity there that they're banking on. I have one more old news story that I pulled up. Looks like it's from 1975. And so the Eagles had an offensive lineman named, a tackle named Ed George. And Ed George came from the CFL. Here's the thing I never noticed in this story before,

because obviously I've read this story before, because, you know, he got to look into your Eagles lore when you're me. So he was a great player in the CFL, and he won CFL Offensive Lyman of the Year. An award he had lobbied to have established. Really? Yeah. Hell yeah.

He lobbied to have that created an award that he then won. Yeah. So then he had a holdout. with the Montreal alouettes because the season went from 14 to 16 games and he wanted more money. And I guess they said no. So he was waived and then went to the Eagles, of course. And he had been, the rules in the CFL were different. Maybe at the time or now, I mean, they are different.

There's a 55-yard line and, like, you know, you have to get the ball out of the end zone. else you lose or else the other team gets a point. It's, you know, but the rules for holding were different. So this guy, Ed George, was nicknamed holding number 64. I mean, one of the great nicknames of the time, which is amazing. And so Dick Vermeel said he was going to petition the league to have them stop, like, announcing the numbers of who a player was on because it was like, it was hurting his feelings.

This is what he's, this is literally what he said. If they announced to 60,000 fans that you wrote a lousy story and they booed your ass, he told one writer, you wouldn't like it. Riemerey added that George, quote, has played some great football and been called for holding a lot. And called when he was not, but it has got to affect you when, when they boo you. Little did Dick Rameel know that the internet would allow 60,000 people. to tell you that the story you wrote was terrible. And they will.

So, yeah, yeah. And they will and do. Well, actually, I want to ask you about that, Kelsey, because that is an interesting sports tie-in with the book, is just the nature of commentary these days. You know, you can call it gossip, where it's not just celebrities who can see the gossip that is being said about them. It is, you know, us on a show,

or is, you know, every person on social media. How do you think that has changed the, like, the relationship to gossip? And just, like, our living lives. For everyone or for athletes or both? Well, like, let's start with everyone. And then we can get into, like, what that is like for an athlete. Sure. I think people are really aware of, like, the surveillance state that exists around us now.

Like, you can see people at dinner sometimes be getting really rowdy and then realize that they're in public and be like, oh, oh, actually, we should lower our boys. because it's like, well, anyone around you could point their phone at you at any time and then upload that to TikTok and then you would be very embarrassed. And so I think people are doing a lot more self-censoring for better and for worse in public based off of that. For athletes, it's like a little more interesting because the athletes themselves, I think, like I have talked about this a lot actually on the tour that athletes don't really use social media the way that other celebrities do, like a few of them do.

But for the most part, they're posting things that the team provides them, right? It's like, here are your cute photos of you and your outfit, put them on Instagram. And the players are like, great, here's me and my uniform. But the players' wives are posting all the time. So it's like, there are ways in. Yeah, it actually, it makes me think of Brandon Graham's story, which is, you know, early in his career, he is, everybody's calling him a bust. He's, you know, he's being compared to the players the Eagles could have taken.

and he's like having a real hard time on social media sifting through all this stuff. And so he just like he starts blocking everybody. And it eventually leads to like the great unblocking that comes after they win the Super Bowl. But like for him, that was too much to deal with. And he didn't really become, you know, who he was as a player until he was able to sort of tune that stuff out. And I think like for a lot of young athletes, that is that is a real difficulty. certainly i mean you can look at anyone's instagram comments and they're a mess like if i were a young athlete i would probably try to pay someone to do it for me because consuming that amount of vitriol

is probably not good for you even if the team wins people are like why did you drop that pass my fantasy team is suffering right and it's like sir you don't know this man please stop commenting on his instagram probably not conditioned to to hear all the gossip about us certainly not i mean we're like as people, we're able to retain like 150 close friendships. Like, that is it. It's like 150 people you're capable of knowing their name and things about them. And so it's like if you are using your slots for athletes and celebrities, that doesn't mean they're using their slots for you, which is a big problem.

Yeah, no doubt about it. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll get back with more. And then I want to see some of these bootleg teas that you brought down just on the other side. There's another line in that story about Mr. toes, one of the people shaking his car, this weird guy named Ray, kind of shady, not the shady ray that we're talking about. This is about our friends at Shady Ray's, where they are the best independent sunglasses company offering a world-class product rated five stars by over

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your appointment today. All right, Dan, what goodies have you brought for us? So, you know, one thing that I think that everyone knows, everyone has seen is the Calvin peeing shirt. This one is, this one is him peeing on the Cowboys logo and the word, the word Cowboys. in case you need it to know. Devilish grin as always. So one thing that's interesting when you collect 200 bootleg eagle shirts, did you learn that the Calvin Peeleggian shirt

may not be the original. So this shirt... Oh, interesting. So the Calvin is... The Calvin peeing shirt is generally dated to the mid-90s. Florida State, I believe, used it for something. And then in NASCAR, it like, you know,

Calvin. Was it not ripped from an actual comic? Calvin Pee. So it is ripped from an actual comic, but just the face. The little Poole. There's no strip where he's actually doing that. No, but there's a strip with that face where he's sort of like looking over his back. People have discovered it's like from 89, I believe the strip is.

But this shirt, this like style of, of, like, artwork looks like 70s, right? Like, way earlier than Calvin peeing. Generally, Calvin peeing, you know, I said Florida State, NASCAR, like, putting it on, on, like, you know, like. Dale Earnhardt. Yeah, exactly. Like, he's peeing on the number three or whatever. Then I have this one that is, oh, it's like a long sleeve team. And it is for the last game at Veterans Stadium.

Okay. And as you can, maybe you can, I don't know if you can zoom in. This face is like, I have no idea what this face is. It's really weird. It looks like an adult man. Oh, that is bizarre. Yeah, wearing, and like that he's wearing a helmet, but nothing. It looks almost like the.

It kind of. Go ahead. go ahead Kelsey. Oh, I was going to say it kind of looks to me like when they give a crescent moon a face. Yes. Yes. I was going to say it's sort of like a like the profile of like a Roman sculpture. But I like the crescent moon better.

Also like the moon. Would you say, I mean, we're three in. I feel like you're already in the lead for like the world's largest collection of Eagles peeing on stuff, t-shirts? Yes. So I actually like, I have a. a lot more. Just in the, just in the peeing genre.

Yeah, because sometimes it's not, it's a cartoon character and it's not sometimes you get stewie peeing. If you look closely on the jersey, it's DeMarco Murray. So this is recent. Yeah, so this would have been

right after Murray's sign. Now that is one where if the artist could do it again, you would want him peeing on himself. Yes, yes, yeah. The DeMarco Murray signing did not work out. No.

One thing I've learned collecting t-shirts is a thing that I forgot that this is like, you know, there are Dallas sucks and then there are, you know, offensive things that, that follow that. This shirt might be is offensive in a different way, but I can show it.

So if you remember when, yeah, so Dallas sucks, he had like an accidental overdose during, during the week. Yikes. And so people, and it was the week

they were playing the Eagles. People were very measured about that. Yeah, like if you look at the, if you look at like photos from that game, the fans have signs that are like the worst things I've ever seen Philadelphia fans say besides like outward racism.

It is like, oh God. Do not, yeah, do not look up those shirt. Those shirts. Yeah, yeah, right. It doesn't surprise me. But do not look up those shirts if you want to feel good about Philadelphia fans.

What is, what is, Dan, your relationship to, like the shirts in your collection? How often are you wearing them? How often am I wearing them? Well,

so for a while, you know, like, maybe not always, but there were some that were in my regular rotation. And then it became like a bit owning Eagles bootleg shirts. I held an art exhibition of them in January.

Right over here, actually. Right, yeah, down the north of here. Yeah, north of here. I'm doing, I'm trying to figure out since Zach can't figure out. That's right, exactly. Where the directions are. You got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

See? It is possible. Now, like, almost none of them are in my regular because I'm like, oh, I got it. Now it's like a collection. Well, maybe Kelsey needs some. And oh, I have some duplicates. We can. Since I've moved here, I've converted to Dan's method of only buying bootleg gear for the most part,

which is also because I found all the Super Bowl gear that was official to be very ugly. I don't like the colored gray and I don't want to wear it. So I'm quickly establishing my own collection of bad bootleg shirts, which I will wear into the ground. I like that very much. Yeah. I did not bring it, but I have a shirt that. spells Sequin Barclay's name wrong. It's S-A-Q-U-A-N.

It's S-A-Q-U-A-N. Okay. Yeah, it has two A. Well, funny you mention that. I believe we actually have a shirt that spells Sankwan's name-wrong available on the P-H-M-Y-Eagles store. Sequan with a W.

So, you know, if you are so moved and you don't want to support Michael Rubin, there's another opportunity for you. It goes well with I have a shirt that spells it J-A-Y-L-E-N-Hurts. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah, that's authentic. Here's one I just want to show if I am just showing.

This is one from Super Bowl 15, the Eagles Lost, and it calls it the Super Bowl game. Nice. I guess people weren't really. Wow. They didn't. Because they were afraid of litigation? Get it? Yeah, I don't know, because it uses like ratings.

And I mean, it says Raiders world champions. So, yeah. I like I was there in a different font and color at the top of that shirt. That seems good to me. Oh, yeah. Kelsey, where do you land on Kelly Green versus Midnight Green? Thank you for asking I look good in all colors of green. So I respect and love them all.

There you go. Maybe that's Jeffrey's point of view as well. Go ahead. One thing, like there are like, maybe seven different shades of Kelly Green that you will see like official Eagles merchant like I was at Coles and you know just just at Coles

just like a regular you know just casually browsing around it's no wantamakers my house it's no it's no wandamakers but uh or even clover um but we uh but you know I count it there were like Like, oh, yeah, these are like seven different shades of green on this Eagles merch. And that's fine.

No one's going to notice unless you're next to someone else, which I guess you might be at a game. So sure. The problem is also, though, if your greens, like I got a satin starter jacket, like a vintage one off eBay in Eagles Kelly green for Christmas. And it does not match my hat. And I'm like, this is upsetting to me because if these were the same color green, they would look very good together. and instead I must choose, which is, you know, my struggle is real. But then you get to alternate. Then then you've got like two outfits.

I need more hats. You know, it's infinite. How is, how is a book tour going for it, Kelsey? Are you, are you exhausted? Good. I'm done. Oh, nice. I did my last step last week. So I'm happy to be home.

I've returned to all of my normal haunts. And that is good for me because I was tired of being on the road. I don't really like to be on the road. I like to be at home. I would imagine so. How about the conversations about the book? How, like, what is the question that I should not ask you because you've been asked it like 10 different times? Ooh.

I feel like the question I've been asked the most is actually the question that you should ask me, which is, do you have any gossip for me? Because I do have an Eagle specific gossip for you if you would like to have it. Absolutely, please. I told this on stage at the Phillies show, so I apologize to anyone. who has already heard this, but I went to the parade, right? Eagles, not the parade, excuse me, to Broad Street. Eagles won the Super Bowl. It's Sunday night. I've been at the bar for eight hours because I tried to go to my local bar at three and it, or at noon and it was packed. And so I had to go

somewhere else. I've been at the bar forever. I'm like, great. Time to go to Broad Street. So much fun. I go out. The next day I had to go to New York because my book is coming out. So I have to get on a train at like 10 a.m. Wait, was it the actual book release the next? Yes. Oh my gosh. It was like, Super Bowl Sunday, the day before the book, my book came out. And then I did New York, D.C., New York, Boston, D.C. And then Friday was the parade. So it was like, I was basically dead at the end of the week. But Monday morning, I was like, okay, I had to go to the train.

And I need to take a car because I am hungover. So I get into the Uber and my Uber driver is on speakerphone. He's on speakerphone talking really rapidly in Spanish. And I have taken Spanish lessons for like four years. and I have like a mediocre ability to understand Spanish. So I'm just sitting in the back of my car eavesdropping on this man having this conversation. And I hear him explain that he, you know, also went to Broad Street last night. And who does he see there?

But his ex-girlfriend on the shoulders of his best friend. And I in the back speak, go, which immediately blew my cover. And then he was like, oh, do you speak Spanish? And I was like, yes. And he was like, do you want me to get off the phone? And I was like, no. I like actually have some questions. Like, why did you break up with her?

And then he told me that he broke up with her because he or she broke up with him because he told her she was pretty enough to go on Love Island. And then she was like, you're right. I am pretty enough to go on Love Island. And then she broke up with him. So, you know, even on Broad Street on Super Bowl Sunday, chaos. Oh, no. What famous, you think you're, you think you're lobbing out a compliment.

And it's the end of the relationship. I'm like, it's such a good compliment too, right? If somebody told that to me, I would be like, oh, my God, thank you. You know what? You're right. See you later. Oh, that's brutal. I know.

This is not quite gossip, but my one bit of Eagles relationship here is I was put on to normal gossip by our mutual friend, Kalin, who informed me. We love Kalin. When she was in, this was in 2022. I think she was working on the tush push story for the athletic that somebody in the Eagles front office who she talks to was a normal gossip listener. So you are reaching,

well back then at least, we're reaching inside the NovaCare complex. Dan and I went to dinner with Kaylin when she was in town working on that story. And she showed me videos on her phone of like the ball being moved forward at the starting line. And I was just like gasping inside a restaurant. Like I was like, this is incredible.

I love art. Yes. And she's getting like, you know, Kelsey, like Kelsey, Jason Kelsey admits to what it. He's like, but like, you know. But don't tell. Yeah. Please. There's actually, I would say about this today.

I think that Kalin and you, Dan, are, uh, are similar to me in that you both have, uh, very, like, specific lanes where if I, if I see a headline, I know it is one of your stories. And like, and Kalin is beautiful that way in covering the NFL where she is doing. stuff that like nobody else is doing and it's like that is a perfect talon story. Wanamakers is a perfect Dan McQuaid story. It's like you guys both have awesome lanes. If you go to Defector.com, you can read my story about spending the last day at Wanamakers as Macy's was a, whatever, Wadamakers. It's a great story.

And my my son using empty clothes racks as like a maze. basically. And it was, it was, it was really, I, you know, I got sobby at the end of the story. It was like making one last great memory there. I proposed in the center of the, of the Watermaker building because of the movie Mannequin. You can, you can read more about that. Like, I've probably written about mannequin six or seven of us. I'm like, I'm a little disappointed. You didn't buy a mannequin. I know. You know. there were only like a couple left and like some of them didn't have full bodies like there were a bunch of mannequins for sale that just had like one leg it was just like one leg

I don't think you should have a mannequin in your house there was like you know you would have to purchase you know I assume when these go up or they're just mannequins with one leg but like there was another leg I guess that you would have to like push up into the no mannequins are too scary you can't have that in your house you're just going to like see the shadow of a full person and panic all the time. But what about just the disembodied leg? Maybe you turn that into smart work or something. Ooh, yeah, maybe just the leg.

Yeah, maybe just the leg. All right, one more break to take to hear from our sponsors, and then we'll come back and talk a little bit more about, you didn't hear this from me, which is available anywhere, books or sold. Whatever the moment at Bet365, it's never ordinary. Bet365 has 90 million users worldwide and they live stream over 780,000 events each year with early payout offers across the NBA. and NHL.

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So all, there you go, PHL-Y. That's all you need to know. Boom. Sometimes they put in the copy directions, but it's supposed to be this is in the read-to-verbatim. I mean, we've got to separate that. Come on. Okay, let's talk a little bit about like the use of gossip in covering a team, right?

Or following a team, rather. And I think the Eagles are a good example of this. Eagles always have something going on, even when they're winning, there is gossip. Dan, let's start with you. Like, how much does the, like, following all the little whisper campaigns about what's going on in the Novacare Complex help or add to your experience as a fan? I think it depends on what the gossip is, I guess. I mean, that's like, that's a, like, a sidestepping the question answer.

But no, I mean, it's interesting that this year, I feel like there was a lot of eagles. Gossip, you know. In a year where they went 14 and 3. So Brandon Graham is going on TV and saying, well, you know, Jailen and AJ don't really get along right now. They used to be friends. I mean, that's pretty gossipy. Yeah, no.

And that was kind of a fun story. And what? They were six and two at the time or something. I think that was on the heels of the Panthers game when A.J. had called out the passing game. So they were pretty good. Yeah. But, yeah.

I think the season's starting two and two and, you know, the memory of the collapse, the previous season. season, like made everybody still nervous, like, even as they continued to win game after game and started to look like really good. And so, yeah, like, I mean, didn't somebody, like, fly a, hire a plane to fly or a banner being like, you know, F the media, we like, you know, we stand with A.J. Brown or whatever. and it was very, and, you know, and then people, you know, there was some stuff that sort of, you know,

the jail and stuff when he was throwing for like 110 yards a game or whatever. I understood there being gossip about the passing game there. I think that, you know, the gossip is fun when the Eagles continue to win. Like another AJ Brown example, when we live. learned about all, you know, the books he reads. Yeah. You know, that was a game where they, you know, that was a point of the season where the Eagles kept winning.

And so I think that as long as the Eagles are good, the gossip is fun. When the Eagles are bad, the gossip maybe is more fun because then it's something to to at least like who's going to get fired as you, uh, as, as the team, you know, struggles in the, in the, in the season. Kelsey, in reading the, the, the Britney Spears chapter in the book, I was struck by just thinking back to,

you know, when she shaves her head, which you write about with, with real compassion. Reminded me of Nick Siriani shaving his head before, uh, the game before the by where it's like,

oh, like, is this guy okay? There's really been between, I feel like my, so I love that Dan's talking about, like here's the gossip that's happening on the field. Because all the group chats I'm in about Philadelphia sports,

are about like who's maybe broken up with their girlfriend. Is Jalen Hertz wearing a wedding ring secretly in off hours? Who's shaving their head? Right. Like it's like not about the game at all. It's like, well, whose birthday is coming up? Could that have an impact on the game?

Right? It's these kind of questions. And between Nick Siriani and Nick Castiano's shaving their head in the last like six months, my phone has never been more alive because people were in hot debate for both of them. Like people who hated the head. head shave and people who liked it. And I'm like, you know what?

I think that's beautiful. And I think that's part of the fun of being a fan is that it's like, well, we don't know this man. Our opinion on his hairstyle does not matter. And yet, could it be a sign of emotional unrest? Could it be hot? We have to ask the important questions. Yeah.

I mean, that's all. Yeah. If it's going to affect him, that's going to affect my life. Yeah. Yeah. It's important. I mean, as much as like, it feels silly to be like who's having a fight with their girlfriend.

I'm always like, if I could get the girlfriends of the opposite team to pick fights at their players the night before the game, I would because that's good for me, right? So it's like it is important. Yeah, absolutely. And like, honestly, we do lose sight of this, I think, just sometimes on this show where it's like, okay, let's talk about this guy's like yards per route run. You know, just the statistics in the grand scheme of things. But, you know, these are human beings with things going on in their lives. sometimes a bad game could be the result of something they've got going on off the field. Yeah, or a good game, right?

That's true. And then you've got to chase that to do whatever you've been doing. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to ride this to the grave, but I made a lot of money on the Super Bowl because I knew that Cooper DeGine was going to get an interception. I was convinced of it for two weeks before he did it because I was like, well, he's been posting a lot of photos where he looks really happy. He wrote on the Zamboni at the Flyers game,

which I feel like would give him good vibes. And it's his birthday. So I was like, it makes perfect sense to me that he'll get the first interception of his career, which is vibes only. Have you seen this poster for the like the Christian event that they're having in Philadelphia where Cooper de Gene and Nick Siriana are going to be speakers?

I have seen the poster for the for the. Are we worried about this? It appears to be like prosperity gospel stuff because it's like Christian, how to make your business. better. Well, it's like Kelly Mccananese talking. I spent a good, I spent a good, I don't

know, two minutes on the website thinking about it. But yeah, maybe I don't want the gossip when it's like, oh, these guys are going to be you know, not that this event is that. But, you know,

like I don't want the gossip when it's like, oh, the star of your team is going to be speaking at the, at the like, we hate children conference, you know. Yeah. I would rather not hear that. I feel like the Phillies are maybe a good example of this. Philadelphia Phillies do not tell me. Do not tell me what you think. Keep your mouths shut. I think I think the Phillies are probably a good example of that, given the makeup of that team. Another sports tie-in from one of your chapters that that jumped out

to me, Kelsey, is the chapter on anonymity. And just by the way, we haven't, I haven't really even done this. Just the book itself is it's a great collection of essays, a about different types of gossip. You should obviously go out and get it, give it the pHLY bump. But how like when something is anonymous, it is more attractive than if we know who's saying it. And I think about this from the lens of like NFL draft rumors,

which we hear, it's like, oh, well, an anonymous scout says that Chador Sanders doesn't know how to cook any food. Like that's a red flag, which is interesting. But if it was like, oh, the West Coast Scout for the Browns says that Shador Sanders, this and that, like, nobody cares. But because it's like, oh, they're whispering about this behind the scenes,

it absolutely gives it more gravitas. This isn't exactly the same, but I love, there's a study that shows that it is more distracting for us to have someone near us talking on the phone than to hear two people talking to each other. Because when one person is talking on the phone, your brain is trying to create the other side of the conversation. Like you want to know so badly what they're saying that you just like can't focus at all. And I think that's like kind of similar to what you're saying here where it's like if we don't know where the information comes from, it is more attracted to us because we're more attractive to us because we're like, well, where could it have come from?

Right. Like who could have planted this rumor that he can't cook and is it true? Right. Is it his enemy? Because when it's anonymous, it could come from the air. Like it could truly be a lie. You never know, which is like a very fun and messy part of sports reporting, I think. Yeah, absolutely.

Go ahead. I thought you had something. So I have a normal gossip question for you. Now I did, you know, I was going to like, I wanted to ask my wife, like, so, hey, like, just so I can pass along to Kelsey, what are your favorite? And like, I didn't even finish the sentence. She's like, Grandma's best friend dot. Like, just, she throws it out. Beautiful choice.

So I will give you her top three, Grandma's best friend dot until Deb do us part and ready to be bunkified. I think. Wow. Those are really good choices. She will appreciate you saying that. but from a a creative standpoint, how difficult was it for you to choose to step away from this thing that you built that that created this amazing following?

You know, it was hard in some ways because I loved doing it. It's so fun to do that job. Like you are just taking gossip all the time into your body like a fire hose to the face, which is like exhausting but very fun because you're like, I know everything about everyone in the world, right? Like there's very few things you could tell me anymore that would surprise me because I'm like, well, I've read the. inbox. So I know what people are doing and it's terrifying. And most of the things that people would be

like, you've never had anyone send this in before. I'm like, I have like five of these. Like this is happening to more people than you could possibly imagine. And I really loved the job. But I also wrote every script. And the scripts for the episodes were three, four thousand words long. And there's 20 episodes a year. And so I was tired. And I never wanted to make a version of the show that I thought was mediocre. Like I I have really high standards for myself. And so I'm excited to be done with it and to not be writing as much all the time. I'm like going to go to so many Phillies games this summer and eat so many hot dogs. And my plans are mostly to relax, which I love.

But what about why then allow it to continue on? And it's like this legacy continues as opposed to just stop it. Yeah, that's a good question. Rachel, so Rachel Hampton is taking over hosting the show for me. and Sierra Spragley Ricks is taking over producing for Alex. They are brilliant and very good. And I don't know that I would have intended to hand it over if I hadn't seen how good Rachel was at it.

Like she came to some of our meetings after we hired her full time. And I was like, wait a second. She's like as good as me at this. And I've done it for three years. And she's never done it before. So I think that it's like it was just kind of a match made in heaven where I'm like, if she can do it, she should do it because it's such a fun show. That's great.

I'm excited to listen to it. What is the what is like the inside defector, like opinion of the like magnitude of this thing that grew? Well, yeah, I mean, like I'm glad that Kelsey passed it on because it's the most successful thing that we've done. And so it's good for this worker. Listen, we're not throwing out of nose at views. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like if Kelsey had been like normal gossip, I'm done with it and I'm just, I'm taking it. Like, you're not going to, no one else will do it.

I mean, that would be bad for defector financially. I'm not saying we can survive without. Everybody should subscribe. But, you know, it is, it has been our, it is, it has been important to our, those are broad shoulders for you to carry. And, you know, I mean, that's like a weird thing to say, but we're pretty open about our. Yes. Yeah.

Finances. I mean, we publish an annual report telling you how we made all our money. Yeah. It's also a different audience. which is really valuable to us as a website because it's like we want, the normal gossip audience is mostly young women. And so it's like, if I can convince you to come over here and read some blogs,

that's going to be great for us. And like that is kind of a fun thing to keep as a company to make sure that they stay with us for a little while longer. These are important notes for us to take, Julia. Let's, Zach wants to bring this in as much as possible. How are you feeling about the Phillies, Kelsey? Oh, well, the thing is,

I'm not feeling great because we've made no moves in the off season. And the only move that I've been told about is that they sent resident haughty Garrett Stubbs down to AAA, which I hate because I view him as a vibe captain. And as a vibes based sports believer, I'm concerned about this for us. So maybe it'll be the change we need, but also maybe they'll be boring this year. It's unclear to me. Maybe Raphael Marshon will be the one to bring like the Robin version instead.

You know what? I'd love to see it. That will be better. How are you, how are you? Do you care about the Phillies as much, Dan? I do. Yeah. I mean, not as much as the Eagles, but I care about the Phillies, you know.

I think they're going to be pretty good again. I mean, they were like the best team in the league for the first half of last season. And I think that the starting pitching could be really, really good. And I think that'll offset maybe the hitting, getting older. But I don't know. I think the Phillies are likely going to make the playoffs. And hopefully it'll go a little better than it did. Yeah.

Last year. It's funny because it's like hard to say because you're like, oh, the team is so similar, but it's like they could have won the last three years. Like it was a great team at certain times. It's about like them being hot in October, which I don't know how you convince them to do that. That's the tough thing about baseball.

It's it's so. How about from an Eagle standpoint, Dan, does having won a second Super Bowl in seven years? Does that affect like the life or death stakes of every Eagles Sunday for you, you think? You think it will be different this year? No, it still affects the life or death stakes of, I mean, I don't think I can change the way that I watch Eagles games where I'm convinced, you know, it's 40 to six in the Super Bowl with three minutes left. And I'm convinced that they might figure out some way to, to, to, lose this game.

You would think, you would think that like, earlier in the game, me after, you know, Cooper did the jeans pick. Yeah. And I'm like,

this is going to be a blowout. You know, this is incredible. Despite saying that earlier in the game, I'm still ready for everything to, to fall apart at any moment. And I don't think that will ever change while watching an NFL game.

All right. I like that. All right. My last question for you, Kelsey, is it feels like you are like the word gossip and Kelsey McKinney, right? Like you have become the owner of this word. And it occurred to me in the reading the story about your evangelical upbringing. You're talking about like the thorn, right? And you tell a nice story of a friend of yours from high school being like, I can't believe like you were the high school gossip and this has become your career.

And you talk about like you still believe in some of you somewhere. the predestination of it that you had this store. And what is it like that you like, this is your thing? This is this was your thing as a kid that has become your thing. It's kind of like to all the haters and losers situation where I'm like, oh, you guys said that this was evil. And now half of those people are like texting me to be like, I love the show. It's so good.

And I'm like, well, well, well, look who it is. If it wasn't the girl who was going to pray for me in high school, welcome. So I feel pretty good about it. It's also, I think, in my best read of what people wanted and thought about gossip inside the community I grew up in, it was that they didn't want you to be mean to other people. And that is something that we like held as a really high standard for ourselves on the show is that like we wanted to punch up and we wanted everyone to be equally bad.

And so like that, the stories we chose were ones that we thought did that where it was like really hard to choose a villain at the end of them. I like that. Well set. Yeah. Also, by the way, I like the choice artistically to go lowercase. Thank you. It's like it's a little, you know.

It's a little whisper. A little casual. That's great. Absolutely. All right. Anything else from you, Dan, before we get going here. My favorite normal gossip episode is marathon finisher. Is it?

It's the one where the woman eventually sends an email. Oh, I do it. As a marathon finisher. Yes, that's right. and a marathon finisher and it's like, oh man, that's such a thing people do. Mine was the, I forget what the boy band was, but like the two groups of friends. Oh, the flat Margaret one. Yes.

And then the reveal at the end is what, I mean, that's a great kicker. Wow. Deep cuts. I love it. Yeah, why not. All right. That'll do it for this episode of the P.H.L.Y. Eagles podcast. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us.

Thank you, Kelsey. Thank you, Dan. Thanks for having us. Having us. Of course. Thank you for having me. Kelsey. Thank you for having only me.

You can buy. You didn't hear it from me. Anywhere books are sold. Is there a place that you want people to buy it, Kelsey? Should we send some people somewhere? Go to your local bookstore, which everyone's closest to your house. Is the one I support. That'll do it for this episode of the PHL by Eagles podcast. Thank you to Julia for making it happen.

We will be back tomorrow at 2 o'clock as always. And for all of us here. We thank you for watching and listening. As always, we love you. You all silly like the mayor.