PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - Zach Berman reflects on the Jeffrey Lurie’s Philadelphia Eagles history in “The Franchise”

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

It’s Book Report day with the Philadelphia Eagles on bye. From Jeffrey Lurie, Howie Roseman, Andy Reid and Doug Pederson to Brian Dawkins, Donovan McNabb, LeSean McCoy and Nick Foles, all of the key players in recent Eagles history are covered in Zach Berman’s newest book. Fletcher Cox! Carson Wentz! Jalen Hurts! Jason Kelce!Join Zach and Bo Wulf for a wide-ranging discussion of the writing process that went into the book, available wherever books are sold. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the PHLY Eagles podcast presented by Bet365. Download the Bet365 app and use code PHLY 365 when you sign up. Whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365. Welcome to the show today, a bi-week Wednesday, Bo-Wolf, Zach Berman, and we are here, Zach, to talk about the book. I'm very excited. How you doing? I'm grateful. Honestly, I appreciate you having this idea.

them being willing to do it. The promotion of a book is really an awkward thing, right? You have to do it, right? You have to promote. I'm going to sell those bad boys. He's got copies to move. But you also, you don't want to, A, be like, over exposed. And B, you don't, you know, we do a show every day. There's a lot of Eagles things to talk about. So I appreciate you being willing to discuss it here. Because I am, I am proud of this and anxious for how it's received. And I appreciate so far the notes from, you know, readers but then listeners, viewers of the show who are reaching out and tell me about particular chapters or anecdotes they enjoy. Now, I do have to start the show today with one thing unrelated to the book, and that is an

apology related to swooper sorecasting. Yeah, I got one of them right. Yeah. Yes. Unfortunately, we did misjudge the Jalen Hurts threw more touchdowns and interceptions yesterday. So while you did drop the ball on the selfie from The Bachelor, party. He was a three-way tie this week. No blood. My father-in-law is a great person. You've met him.

Not an objective source, though, with this. He thinks I was right. And I said to him, I was like, you know what? I was wrong. The letter to the law. I was like, you know, my shortcoming in Swooper is not listening to the full, the full instructions or the full item. So I, yeah, I'm frustrated because that was such an easy thing, right? All I had to do. It's supposed to me. And I should just take my selfie. myself instead of setting a picture of Nick. I was standing there the first night we were there and Nick's there and I'm like

let's just get this out of. Let's just get this out of the way. I don't have to take photos the rest of the weekend until the game. And then I thought I was in the clear and I texted you, here's my swooper point. And I thought I was, I thought that was sufficient enough. You said four, yeah, you said four swooper and I hearted it.

Yes, exactly. So I thought that was sufficient. I thought that was sufficient. But I will, I will, I will, take it and learn from it. All right. Let's let's get to the business at hand. First of all, congratulations. Thank you, Bob. This is a, I mean, a remarkable undertaking. And you were there like, like, like you saw me pulling my hair out. Yeah, in the slow time. Yeah, yes. I mean, you really dragged yourself through the mud, but you came out on the other side. The breadth of, of this book is great. Thank you. And wide. And the insight is deep. I appreciate that.

Let's start with a couple things that are relevant to the moment. Okay. And I do want to start with Jalen Hertz. Yes. Because you wrote the, when did you write the Jalen Hertz chapter? So I had it, the outline for it throughout last season. So just to give people a sense of my deadline. My deadline last year was before the season.

Okay. I was able to stretch that to mid-October. I was going through the job change. There's a lot going on. So I was able to stretch that until, like, mid-October last year is when I submitted everything except two chapters, Siriani and Hertz. But Siriani and Hertz, they had everything laid out. So it had to be within a set.

Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And then so I had it outlined. And I was just going to kind of update if something happened dramatically late in the way. the season after the season, that kind of thing. So for all intents and purposes, it was, it was all the, the material for it was during the season, and then the writing was directly after the season on that. Okay. Now, and for people who are unaware, which would surprise me at this

point, but the book is, it is a collection of essays about the executives, the head coaches, the quarterbacks, the big players over the past 25 years and the moments as well. And so for Jaylen Hertz, this is what I want to ask you about. And it's because, you know, the scope of the book is so long. But, you know, on this show, we do a show every single day. It is easy to get caught up in the moment and like you don't notice the big changes as they're happening, right? And so as little a time as two, three years ago, how much has changed about the way that we viewed Jalen Hertz? And there's, there's a scene that you have. And it's the quote from Jalen from the 2021 season when Nick is coaching him hard in that game. And in the quote that Jalen says on the podium,

after the game is in high school I lived with the guy that was chewing me out obviously referring to being a coach's son I made it clear to Nick all year you know you can get on me a little bit so after the fumble he came up to me and said what he had to say then later on in the game he comes back

and jokes with me and says I guess I'm just going to start coaching you like your dad coached you so it was a funny moment whatever he said worked boy yeah has the relationship with Jalen Hertz and Nick Siriani changed in the last three years

like it's wild to think Jilling would never say that now. No, it's a great point. And I'm glad you brought that up. I, we were not on that call with Nick on Monday because our show overlap. But there was a great exchange with Jeff McLean from the Enquirer about holding Jeline accountable. And Nick basically said in there, I do it behind the scenes, but I would never do it publicly. like and if I was on the guy I want to follow up and I will next week probably on Friday because Friday you kind of do some more of the theological questions is why not right if you've done it in the past yeah and and Jalen's welcome this but like there really does seem to be walking on eggshells around Jalen and I said in the show on Monday it reminds me of like the end of Carson that they were so scared of his psyche and it shouldn't be the way J.

Jalen's wired. And by the way, there's a story I'm working on now that's going to appear early next week. And Jalen's talking about a particular coach on the staff. And one thing that Jalen said to me was he reminds me of the way my dad coached me, which is interesting because I don't know if he wants to. Maybe Clint Hurt then, I would imagine. It was not, you know, it's not the way that Nick is coaching him now. Yeah. It's just, it's interesting how quickly things change.

And there are obviously many moments along the Eagles timeline over the past 25 years when things have changed quickly. But I just, it's hard to get over how quickly things have changed. And like, you know, one thing that comes up in this book is like the echoes of history. And it does to me right now feel like this team is going the way of, you know, the 2019, 20, 20, 20, 20, Eagles. Right? Like, it feels like it's all happening again. And yeah, yeah, there's like a full me one shame on me, full me twice. Yeah.

Or is it the other way around? For me, one, shame on you, phone me twice, shame on me, for me three times. Yeah, just shame. Is that the expression? I don't want to be like a... I think it's shame. Shame.

Yeah, but... That could be our opportunity for nudity, actually. It's the same life cycle of you pay the quarterback, and then the quarterback's emboldened, and then you get to a point where because of the quarterback's role in the organization, he becomes more important than anybody. else and i i thought that a lot of a lot of uh activity going on outside today yeah i thought that was a lesson that they might have learned from the carson experience but i am seeing this with with jellin and

and i don't want to use the term disappointing because i don't want to be personally invested in it um but having covered it one of the things is that you try to get a read on somebody and and the thing that always jumped out to me about jallin was like the the mental toughness the the The thing you read there is that I did not write about Carson that way. Like, you know, there was a certain fragility to Carson. Yeah. You know, not just physically, but emotionally like throughout. And I remember him talking about the Foles thing and like the vulnerability that he exposed to that.

Jalen, there's always been, it's like the passage you read and that game strike, that, that game is vivid in my mind. It was the game that got postponed because of COVID. Remember that? and or push back. The Garrett-Gilbert game. Yes. And he, yeah, that was all the mental toughness. And the thing you kept hearing is the way he dealt with the Alabama situation, which I chronicled in the book, because that was something that Jeffrey Lurie and other people brought up to me was, was like you saw in Alabama the way he dealt with this.

I don't know why you can't push back. I mean, that should be. And the other thing that you have in that section, which was such a common talking point, in like 2022 was, listen, I don't know what Jalen's ceiling is, but I know that he is wired to get to whatever that ceiling is. Like he will maximize his potential. Nobody's talking about Jailen like that anymore. No.

And, you know, a lot of it, I don't want to conflate it with getting paid because who knows what, there's so many variables. But just that's, that's kind of the timeline is that there is a contract and that contract. And of course, what they said about him when they paid him. Like, well, he's the most mature 25-year-olds we've ever seen. Exactly. And I'm not saying that it emboldens you, but, you know, there was the line in the Tim

McManus story that he tried to earn that contract with every throw. But also, it becomes, you know, there's a great responsibility. Take the money aside, just kind of the status that comes with that. You are, you're that guy in the franchise. You're that guy in the league. Okay. Let's talk about Jeffrey Lurie, who I think is the, is the, you know, the guy. the main character of the book, I guess you could say, right?

Because this is the arc of his ownership. And that chapter in particular is very in-depth. And kudos to you. You got a nice sit-down with the man to reflect on this time. For full disclosure, it was Zoom sessions because he was out of town. Yeah, but were you both sitting? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I was sitting in the same seat where I do my podcast, right?

And many other things. Yeah. We have a blue chew read coming up. Yeah, we had multiple conversations. Yeah. Yeah, we spoke forward. And I'm grateful for his time and perspective for this. So the one question that I have about this season in particular is the way that he talks about head coaches that you have talked about for a while.

I don't care that the person hasn't been interviewed by another franchise, right? Like, we can I do the identification? I was thinking about how much. that stands in contrast to the way they go about filling coordinator positions this offseason, right? Vic Fangio and Kellyn Moore, like we talked in the spring in February about like, you know what, maybe you want to chase the floor with Vic Fangio, but where is the like interviewing of, you know, up and coming minds on offense, you know, your G.J. Kinney's or whoever, you're Brian Grubbs.

No, it's just sort of looking for retreads like Cliff Kingsbury and Kellan Moore. and we've sort of seen this in many other ways, right? Like, oh, let's go find someone to give us the Kyle Shanahan influence with Rich Skangarello, right? And there's also player acquisition stuff like this, where it's let's go find some first-round picks. Why do you think that when it comes to head coaches, Jeffrey is willing to think a little bit more outside of the box than he is in filling sort of lieutenant positions? Yeah, that's another good question. And as you're saying it, what comes to mind is a sentiment that Jeffrey, shared which which was what you needed a coach at a given time is different each time right

i think about this a lot with nick right now yeah and and and so if we spend this forward if the eagles do have a coaching change like that's something that would be very relevant is just what jeffrey's looking for at that particular time um when jeffrey hired chip he was looking for innovation he was you know they they had the same they had the same system for 14 years or the same coach same voice for 14 years. He was looking for a strong, innovative voice. He was looking for something totally different, right? When they fired Chip, famously, he was looking for the emotional intelligence. I think he was looking for someone who had that type of, you know, connection in the locker room. The former player part of it really stood out, the ability to understand players, right?

When he hired Nick, the big emphasis wasn't on the schematic part. It was more on like the teaching part. And he thought that's what the team needed at that particular point. He brings in a bunch of staff of young coaches, all of these guys. Like it's all about this is the beginning of a new life cycle for this team. We've got to teach these guys. That's not where they are now. Yeah. And so if I had to project, and again, like, you know, I have a piece right.

I have a piece on all p.chly.com where it's kind of an extension of some of the thoughts we had the past two days. And at the end, I outline if we are overreacting and I point to the next four. opponents are 3 and 13, right? Like, what the upcoming schedule. There's a chance. Nick is here. The Eagles win a playoff game. He keeps his job. But if the Eagles continue on this trajectory, they'll have a coaching change.

We outline that going into the year. Jeffrey's not going to run this back after a middling season. And so if they were to make a change after the season, I think what he would look for is exactly what you're outlining, like the schematic chops. I think he would look for

someone who gives them a schematic advantage. every week. I think that would be the, like the big talking point. And that's so you, you look at the offensive, you know, gurus, if you will, or maybe a defensive coach like that. But I, I really think what he would be looking for is, is the schematic advantage on a week-to-week basis. Okay. I think that makes sense. All right. We're going to talk about Jeffrey and, like, the Joe Banner partnership in a minute. But first, a word from our sponsor. Zach, what do you think is the horniest moment of your book? I don't think my book is a particularly horny book.

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by over 300,000 people. All right. Jeffrey Lurie, continuing on the owner. We think of Jeffrey as a particularly invested owner, right? Somebody who was involved in the important decisions. Was that always the case? Good question. Yeah, I think that when Joe Banner was here, there was more of a layer in between, right? Joe was the president, and as the president, he dealt with the football side and the business side. And then there was obviously a head coach who had Andy Reid, who was very, you know, probably as powerful coach as there was in the league in addition to Belichick.

And you had GMs too. You had Tom Hecker. Well, first you had Tom Modrake, then you had Tom Hecker. Then you had Howie Roseman. So there were a lot more layers then, I think. And then I really do think post-2012 when Joe departed and it removed that layer. The organization, not this mortal coil. Yes, yes. I spoke to Joe for the book. He did not depart. Yeah, I appreciate Joe's time and insight for this book. And then certainly, and it's chronicled in here, I think following Chip, Jeffrey was more involved, more around. I think they kind of have the pulse of it. But so I think that has evolved over the years. But he's always been, I think he's always been the type of owner like he's at every game. He's lived here. That was an important thing. The Eagles weren't the first team.

he was interested in buying, but the other teams he was, he was looking at, he was committed to living wherever he, he went. So, uh, his, his children were raised here, right. Um, so he's, he's, he's been around, right? And so I think, but, and he was always as, as, as you and I, and shield chronicled in a story we, we did, he's always kind of viewed himself as a draft. He's always been interested in the draft. So that's a time that he's particularly interested in. And he, uh, I went through in our conversations a lot of different players. And he would give personal memories and anecdotes and stories on different players. Like I recall when I was talking about Jeremiah Trotter,

and he was telling me exactly what the draft room was like when they drafted Jeremiah Trotter. And I think it was Willie Shaw was the coach. No, Emmett Thomas was the coach with Brian Dawkins. Yeah, I think Willie Shaw was the coach who really liked Trotter. I have to, sorry, I have to look that back up. But yeah, he would tell me, like, I remember specific moments that he would reference to that. So I think he's more involved post-chip. But there were more letters early on.

So do you think that Joe during the early 2000s was like Jeffrey's proxy? Or was Joe doing things that Joe wanted to do and not, and Jeffrey was just sort of giving him free reign? Well, I mean, probably a little bit of both. Like it was always kind of viewed like Joe and Jeffrey, right? Or Jeffrey and Joe, you know, they were childhood friends. And early on, they were kind of paired together. And there were people in the league who would mock them, honestly. And some of the stuff they were doing early on was, was, yeah, was mocked, was ridiculed.

They were kind of viewed as a pair. And then I, that over the years that that did kind of change. And, you know, Joe would, Joe would tell you, you know, he helped develop Don Spelensky. He helped develop Howie Roseman, right? And so there was, I think there was an organizational shift in the late 2000s. But early on, it was really Joe was, yeah, yeah, Joe was very influential. How would you say Howie and Joe are different? good question and i have to give this this kind of disclosure here is that i've covered just about

all powys time sure i didn't cover joe's time and uh so i joe a lot of it was talking to people for this book and talking to joe for this book um and then reading a ton and you talk to guys who who covered the team men and women who have who have covered the team and they all have Joe stories, right? But I would say Howie, from an interpersonal perspective, from a visit, yeah, I think Howie was probably more, I think Howie tried initially and then certainly in his return to have some of those interpersonal relationships to work on that, although that was a problem early on in Howie's tenure, but also... In the building?

Or with the players? Yeah, with the players. With the players. With the players. Like, it was very much Andy was the good guy. Yes. Joe was the bad guy. Right.

And Howie will tell you, like, there's a connection that he has to these guys. And, you know, Jason Kelsey, the way he drafted Jason Kelsey. I mean, Brandon Graham was his first draft. He would tell you that. Joe, I think one of Joe's regrets was, was, was, kind of the way the Brian Dawkins situation was put on him and I think Howie um howie with the players the the interpersonal relationship with the players that that dynamic there how he was was was much more I don't want to say pro player but had had had had those

relationships with the players and I think how he has admitted that yeah that one of his failings is too strong of the word but one of his weaknesses is an attachment to the players who have been here. And I think that has come back to bite him a few times. But I think he probably overlearned the lesson from Dawkins and the acrimony of that departure. Yeah. I guess you're right.

Okay. Who do you think if you had to say someone who like doesn't get enough credit for the arc of the Eagles general success over the past 25 years, does anybody stand out? Well, I think Joe's misunderstood. good in this in this market because i i think a lot of what how he does now and the team does now uh they were doing then and you know the eagles get a lot of credits for like trades and the way they structured contracts they were they were on the cutting edge of that pretty early on and i think uh yeah i think joe probably got um it was like a caricature at times uh and so i think for

the infrastructure they have, he deserves a lot of credit. But I really think Andy, Andy gets a lot of, I mean, but Andy and Donovan were so, we're so significant in this. I think John Runyon symbolically signing with Eagles was significant. When you talk to people early on, when you talk to Jeffrey, for instance, he'll tell you how important the practice facility was and the stadium was. And, you know, you saw this. I think early on in your time covering the team was still when free agents were taking visits.

Is that right? Like you don't see that anymore, free agent visits. But that used to be a thing. And the practice facility really mattered, right? This was before every team had these sparkling practice facilities. And at the time, the Eagles weren't considered really a destination per se. A veteran stadium was a bad facility. You know, they move into NovaCare.

but I think John Runyon's signing symbolically was really important for them. That's a good one. Do you think that the pride in the facility will lead to bigger changes down the road? Well, it's not it's not sparkly new anymore. That's what I mean. Yeah. It's interesting because I think one thing that they take, at least in the practice, they take pride in the fact that it's in the city, right?

I mean, frankly, there might be some place. players who would prefer if it weren't in the city. Sorry, that was a city wage tax line. Oh, okay. But, you know, like the Sixers and the flyers are crossed the bridge. Anyways. But yeah, there's, you're kind of landlocked at times or you're, you don't have the space that you would if it's a suburban facility or if it's a facility outside of the city limits. But I am curious to see.

I think there are, Jeffrey, when you and I were in Florida for the owners meetings, it was very cryptic when he kind of talked about the amount of time they had left on the lease. I'm curious to see what happens with the stadium. But it would surprise me if they moved out of Philly. Are you willing to share what Jeffrey said was his biggest regret? Yeah, there were two, I would say. There were a few things. But two that I highlighted in the book that really jump out. first is that he wished he could have made it work that there was a way that they could have made

it work with Andy at the end in 2012 look there's a lot that went on in Andy's family life right he lost his son tragically that I think complicated that situation you were there you you lived it that it was at the at the end I mean that was my first year covering the team so I'll defer to you it seemed they were ready for a change and seemed Andy was was was ready for a change and seemed Andy was ready for a change. Yeah. I think that was the best thing for both parties. It's hard.

If I was Jeffrey, I wouldn't regret that decision. It's just like you're lamenting that that had to be the course of action. Because I do think, and even now, like I think Jeffrey has a genuine fondness for Andy. Yeah, he's the best coach of football. Yeah. Right? You know, it's hard to divorce the Patrick Mahomes of it. And then that.

I like the framing of the Brian Westbrook chapter. where like, you know, Andy, Andy basically created the modern NFL running back. Yeah, and that came from Brian. Like Brian told me, you know, Brian gave the anecdote of how his kids look at him and Eddie George and they're like, how do you guys play the same position?

But then Jeffrey's other regret was that he didn't identify what was happening with Chip sooner. And because there were stuff behind the scenes that, I mean, I think Jeffrey would say he wasn't totally clued in on how, how bad it had gotten. And even that, I wouldn't hold against Jeffrey because, I mean, he gave him the third year, but kept Howie for a reason and knew that this was a possibility. And then he pulled the trigger when he did.

Like, I don't know. Yeah, but I don't think he handled that wrong. I mean, there was collateral damage in the sense of, and look, maybe it turned out to be the best thing for the organization in a certain respect. But I don't think Jeffrey wanted to move on from Lashon McCoy that offseason. I mean, there were some other moves there that, yeah, I don't think Jeffrey, I think it was very chip driven. Okay. I think that's fair.

The Nick Fowles chapter, I think, is a fun one. Thank you. Because that is one where, I mean, you were here, you were there for the full arc of it, right? And it was funny reading it because it was after Nick's retirement press conference the other day. and it's like everything that Nick talked about in the retirement press conference is just already in the book job. Well, that's a good sign. That's a good sign. Yeah.

I thought that was good. Thank you. Yeah. And Nick is, of all the players that I've covered, I think I said this on the show when he retired. But I know I said this in private conversations. Like I felt a certain connection with Nick because he was literally the first rookie that I met that year. I remember introducing myself after practice. He was wearing glasses outside.

I said this on the show, right? Okay. I don't remember the glasses. Okay, yeah. Yeah, and then I introduced myself to him. And then, yeah, we got married around the same time. I know we had kids at the same time. Like Nick, throughout 2017, was like always asking about my son.

And then, and yeah, and so, and we kind of, look, I was learning my way on the job when he was learning his way the job i thought i was better five years in then saying i thought you were you thought you were better than him no no no no no i thought i was better at my job when he came back okay and i think he had a had a greater appreciation for the market and the media when he came back um so yeah i felt strong about the uh the foals chapter and there were conversations that i had with foals over the years that i thought like were were primary source material um so it's actually that's that's one of the nicer things you can say to me is that that chapter that he he hit on that in the in the retirement speech because um it was very funny yeah uh because i like he talks about

he mentions the fly fishing trip with with his brother-in-law and it's already it's like in the second paragraph that really means a lot and i'm going to send nick a book and uh i appreciate that i i hope each he feels the same way so along those lines uh what was like what was the difficulty for you of writing about the people who you didn't cover Oh yeah, it's because great question. And I saw this, I saw this my first book. That sounds like a pompous thing to say. I don't think so.

I think people remember. And this was also the challenge, by the way, in the Joe and the Jeffrey chapter. And I have a lot of empathy sometimes for people writing history type books because people always sanitize their memories of things. And like you hear it too. I use a lot of material in this from people's retirement press conferences and things like that. And conversations I had with them when they retired. And I find the stuff in the moment to be. So I bring up the first book because I found the material I had like as it happened in 2017 to be much more authentic than talking to people after the fact.

And so when you remember the way things happened, it's kind of like you were sanitized. It's like if I tell the story of how I met my wife, right? Like you tell it so many times and you add like a wrinkle here and wrinkle there for dramatic effect perhaps that is it like totally what it was when you first met, right? And so the challenge is I wasn't there. And so I relied a lot. I did, you know, the source list in this book outside of people I talked to, I did a lot of research.

I read, you know, 10, 11 books, including Anthony's book, by the way. I'm not just saying that because I work with him here. Anthony's book on 2004 Sunday Pilgrimage was awesome. He was embedded with the team. He had great stuff there. That was really helpful for the end. Actually, the Andy chapter started with Andy's forework from that book. Which was also an Anthony's piece for our preview this year.

But I think the challenge with those chapters was that the way people remember things sometimes are maybe a little different than it happened in the, in the, moment. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, you, I mean, you were also, you were here as a kid, right, following those. Yeah. So there's, there's a different perspective, I imagine, right? Absolutely. And one of the cool things for this book is, you know, I say this a lot. Like, we become desensitized in this job, but we don't become dehumanized. Like, I'm, I'm not, I'm not a fan of the team right now. Like, I cover the team. My journalistic integrity is paramount to me. But I can't, like, you know, Julia went to high school with me. Julia, can tell you what I was like in high school, in middle school.

Like I... Julia? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I had a Donovan McNabb jersey, right? I'm not going to like, I'm not going to pretend that this didn't exist. Like, I was, I remember, you know, the first game of this era in 1999, I was there with my grandfather, who I dedicated the book to. I want to ask you about that, but go ahead. Yeah.

You know, and I remember I was at Pete Vernon's house, my friend Julia, I'm not sorry, Julia. Our friend Pete, I was at his house with a few other guys. Smartest guy I know, Pete. He'll be hopefully listening or watching. And I mean that. Although Alex Kaplan might be offended. Alex Kaplan's up there as well. Now, do you, I take it as offense that you're not even thinking that I might be offended.

I mean, no, Pete's brilliant. Pete's brilliant. I'm not saying I should be number one. I'm just like, you could at least throw me a bone that I could be offended by it. I was at Pete's house for people. fourth and 26. I remember watching the pickle juice game, you know,

and I can kind of track a lot so I have a chapter here on the miracle at the New Metallands. I talked to Deshawn, but I covered that game as the New York Giants beat writer. I talked to Matt Dodge after that game. I, you know, there were stuff that I covered here

or did I, I wrote about. I remember the last, you know, that great day in Eagles history, the end of the 2008, season when all those things had to happen and they destroyed and they destroyed Dallas. 44 to 6. Yeah, I was covering the Orange Bowl, Virginia Tech for Cincinnati, which interestingly, Jason Kelsey was the starting guard on that Cincinnati team.

Your boy, Mr. Pianney. Connor Barwin was the eddresser. But I remember watching that game in the Fort Lauderdale Marriott. And so anyway, so yeah, so it was cool as I wrote this, like not to inject myself in it. But like, there's some eyes in the. there though yeah there's you can kind of trace a lot of your personal memory your personal memory certainly the evolution of my career um like through a lot of this period i'm 38 this period covers a 25 year period so it starts when i'm 13 years old anyone watching this can can tell you that they were

you know when you were 13 years old that's like a very formative period for you as a sports fan right uh and my yeah and a pubescent young man i mean So, yeah, so. No, no blue chew necessary. No, no blue chew necessary. So, yeah, so as 13, so a lot of the times before my 13 years covering the team, I observed this from either the fan perspective or covering it. I mean, I was in Washington at the Washington Post from the then Washington, you know, what the Washington football team's name was then. From their. perspective as well well and i i think that that's part of why what i like about this book zach is that it is uh and i hope this i hope this is okay with you i think of this book less as um the the the eagles and more about zach berman's eagles i think this is very much a jack book i'm curious how so well i think like you like for instance the full stuff like this is this is the thing this is what you were the closest to yeah um and you are right yeah right yeah right right like

Like, and maybe it's just because I'm your friend and I'm reading the book that you wrote. But I'm viewing this book through like, oh, this is Zach's viewpoint of the last 25 years of Eagle's history. Well, that's, look, you are because I, and I've said this on the show, and I wrote this in the epilogue, part of my regret is like what had to be left out, right? And so you leave out Asante Samuel, you leave out Trent Cole. I didn't cover Asante Samuel. And in conversations with you, like I obviously watched him and know him, but I probably didn't fully appreciate like how good he was during that period of time. Trent Cole, I covered the end of Trent Cole's time. I covered the beginning of Trent Cole's time.

But Trent Cole is one of the most underrated Eagles during this period. There's a chapter on Brandon Brooks in here. There's not a chapter on Trent Cole. You can probably argue that I leaned more into the 2017 team, A, because they won the Super Bowl, but B, because I was there. So it's like, you know, the book's 300 and, you know, 30 pages or so. No, like, it's not going to be a 500, 600 page book. Sure. And I had to write it within a period of time.

And it was, so I had a deadline I had to hit. And the thing they emphasized to me is this is a curated history. It's not an encyclopedia. Because a matter of fact, to give you behind the scenes, when I was on the call with the publishing company about this and they pitched this to me. and you guys all, if you're watching, you know the bookshelf I have behind me, and I turn around and I pull Ray Dindinger's book out. And I show them right Dinger's book and I say, it's all in here. Right. And they were like, no, this is going to be different.

Like this is going to be essays that are, you know, it's not in encyclopedia. So I leaned into the material that I had the richest, that I had the richest material on A. But I. Yeah, there's a lot of primary source material that you said. And then I wanted to be a good cross-section, too, of, like, I wanted Jeremiah Schroeder in there so I can have a linebacker. I didn't want to just, you know, I wanted to have different types of positions covered. I should have had a chapter on Hugh Douglas in here. I should have had a chapter on...

You got to draw the line somewhere. I should have had a chapter on Troy Vincent, Bobby Tatt. Like, that was significant. But I always, I made sure all of those guys were mentioned in the book. The one that I didn't do enough justice on was Asante Samuel. And to your point, the period of time, when I was leased, like, connected to the Eagles. Right, because you were an adult covering a different team.

Yeah, and like was 2008, the 2012 when I was at the Washington Post and then the Star Ledger because my life at the time was the University of Virginia of Virginia Tech and then the New York Giants. And like I would watch Eagles games, but I did not have the day-to-day connection to it. So, yeah, that's the period when Assante was at a state. was at his best. But that's okay. This is your book. Yeah, but still, it's, it, I wrote in the, in the epilogue, there should have been a, there

should have been, there should have been more on Asante in there. And I saw your tweet last week about Asante as a Hallfamer. If Asante makes the Hall of Fame, I will, I mean, I hope for his sake he makes it. But like, um, if I didn't have a chapter on a Hall Famer, that, that'd be a problem. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it does not, it does not seem like he's going to make it. I'll see. My, my case on Asante is the most important thing, a defensive.

player and especially a quarterback can do is take the ball away and he did that better than anybody in his era by a long shot. Well said. Yeah. Okay. Um, we have more conversation to get to before another word from our friends. Bet 365 has 90 million users worldwide and they live stream over 780,000 events each year with early payout offers across the NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB. Bet 365 pioneered live in-game betting. And today they offer the widest range of games. markets available for live in-game betting across 78 sports. Right now, new customers can get $200 in bonus bets. When you bet just $5, use the code P-H-L-Y-365 to sign up, deposit $10, and place a bet for $5 to get $200 in bonus bets.

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How's it looking? They're expensive right now. The good thing about game time, though. I'm glad you said that is you can wait until closer to first pitch. Right? Because they have these great last minute deals. And if I'm able to pull it off to take read this, this weekend, I will be using GameTime. Because GameTime has a new feature called GameTime Picks that makes getting tickets for your favorite live events even easier. It filters out the fluff to show you only incredible deals on great seats so you don't have to waste time searching through thousands of tickets.

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Game Time. That is a nice shirt, but I'm sorry. Let's not talk. Let's not talk fashion. We don't want to get away later. We don't want to do it. We don't want to do it. But I'd like this show. We don't want to do it.

We just pinched me. It's a nice material. Can I ask you a process question? Anything, yeah. About sixers? No. That was a process. You're very funny.

How did you go about like the writing process? You know, you can, were you doing one essay a day? Like what was the, how did you lay it all out? What was the process like for you? Did you figure out who you were going to write about first and then get to writing? Like, give me the laydown. Yeah. And you can attest this.

I was not the best version of myself last summer. I was going on. Yeah, I was write this book and I had a, I had a very confined period of time. I was teaching for the first time. Okay. And then I had a few, like, you know, we were supposed to be at our previous job. I had two A1s I was working on. You remember that?

and so just because I wanted the opportunity to write that so I was Emily can tell you I was I was not the best version of of myself so the answer to your question is painstakingly you wrote this uh what I did was I um yeah I'm I am real good about uh I have a spreadsheet and it wasn't I wasn't running it by chapters I was running by word so I had to finish X amount of words per day and I set a schedule out um to to write 1,500 words this day, 1,000 words this day, 2,500 words this day, 1,000 words that day. And then I would try to give myself Saturday and Sunday to be with the kids. You know, the kids were at summer camp during the day. And so I would do that and we were still doing our shows. So I was trying to adhere to that. Poor God. And then, but you, what I tried to do too is to make sure that I hit.

my words each day, I wrote, I wrote what I knew. So if there was a day when I'm waiting on phone calls, I'm like, all right, I'm going to write Carson Wentz today, right? Because I have Carson Wenz. I'm going to write this Carson Wens chapter. And so that would kind of be my fallback approach. But it was the first book I wrote was the writing process was more invigorating. I got to say this one, the writing process wasn't as invigorating just because there was so much other stuff going on, but it was rewarding at the end because when I

read through it, I would go back and read and I was like, oh, okay, I'd like the way this came together. I was going to say, you got to sell this a little bit more to the people that's good. Yeah, this and I used this analogy before on this show. I've never run a marathon, you can probably tell. But I imagine

those who run a marathon, I always imagine this. you're on mile 11. What do you think? Right. And that's kind of how I felt. But then when you get, I think when you get to mile 25 and you're like, oh, man, look what I've done. Right. And that's kind of what it was. I remember when I got to like 73,000 words and I still had more to go. But I'm like, this, I feel good about how this is coming together. And I felt really good about clicking send. But the process was, sorry. I got a bug on here. Okay. I would write in a call. coffee shop sometimes.

Okay. Same one or? I mixed it up. I mixed it up three different coffee shops. If I needed to get out of the house, I had a home office that I wrote at at night. So when the kids would go to sleep and my kids went to bed at like 7.30 and I would write from like 730 to 130. And I would have the MLB baseball game. And we know how you are at one morning.

All the errors were at 1.30. if the editor picked those those errors up they were then and then on on weekends i would i would go down the shore and i would write down the shore uh when the kids like before the kids got up you think you were better at one of the three coffee shops than the others uh yeah yeah i do um yeah i do uh green engine uh in ardmore i was probably i i wrote some good stuff there i actually wrote a good shot i I wrote the Joe Banner stuff at a coffee shop in Princeton. I was going to Julia's friend and my friend Sean Greaves' house in Princeton. Wow, you didn't even reach out to Coach Flynn, huh?

He's going to be furious. I had the right. And I got there early, and I went to a coffee shop, and I remember I was really on a roll there. I was excited to see Sean. But I was like, man, you know, I'm feeling good about the writing. I could keep going for two hours here. Tell us about how the Malcolm Jenkins forward came to pass. Well, there's a few things there.

First off, I had to think of who could write this forward, and I wanted to be someone who had good perspective, number one, okay? I didn't want to just be a name on the book. I wanted to be someone who would have good perspective. Last summer, last August, I remember it was the day I went to the Baltimore Ravens game. I got the Baltimore Ravens preseason game. Ah, yes, the classic Commando game. Commando game.

Oh, yes. Yeah, well, yeah, yes, you're boxers. That's right, the classic commando game. Before I went, I received in the mail that day, the proofs for Malcolm Jenkins's book. And I remember, like, really being impressed with how well he wrote it, number one. Like how thoughtful it was, how, you know, he was vulnerable in it. And so I admired him as a writer.

And I've said this and I wrote this in the acknowledgments of the book that you can't have favorites in this job, but there's no one I've covered who I respect more than Malcolm. So I reached out and I asked him and I truly, truly, truly appreciate him saying yes. And I'm proud of this forward. Like I'm proud that his name's on the book is, yeah, he was a captain of the Super Bowl team. I think he's a very rich story. He chose to come to Philly. Philly's meaningful to him.

You know, he still has a place here. He still does. I was at a charity event recently in Camden. And I've told this story before. I don't think I've told this on the show. I would go to Malcolm Jenkins's football camp every Memorial Day weekend because I went up there when when Malcolm signed. I went to Piscataway to do a story on Malcolm. I got to know him and his family.

Mona Terrell from his foundation and the mayor of Fiscataway, his coaches. And so I got invited to go up to like covers his football camp. And I did it and I would go up subsequently. And then one year, 2016, I couldn't go up because it was Memorial Day weekend. It was when you had it. I was getting married that weekend. And I think our rehearsal dinner was the night of, yeah, it was the night of the camp. and Emily didn't let me miss or be late for the rehearsal dinner to go to Malcolm Jenkins's football camp.

Yes, I think it is that level of absolute derangement that is ported to this book. But anyway, so the answer to your question is, is I respect. I respect Malcolm and I thought he would have good perspective. And yeah, that's why I chose not preaching him saying yes. Can I tell you my only issue with the book? Only would indicate there's one. I mean, you're more to have more than one. I have more than one issue with the book.

But yeah, you're more. My only issue is the sentence. There's a line that you referenced Tom Brady as without equivocation, just the best quarterback in NFL history. Okay. All right. I don't know. Is that fact?

Yeah, let that be your objection. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I stand by that. That's quarterback in NFL history. Of course you do. Yeah. Although I do love Peyton Manning as well Okay

With Howie Yes To circle back on Howie The thing that you have talked about for a lot Which we I think talked about recently Is and it's in the chapter Is the framing of Howie His strength being building up the roster

And not maintenance How much do you think that that is at play at the moment? Oh very much so Now I think well I think this I think Howie has has learned from that I don't think he's necessarily making short-term moves there. Like, I don't think that he signed Bryce Huff to, like, put them over the edge right now.

Like, you know, I think that was done thinking a few years down the line and kind of always be building it. But I think that you have a more objective view of your own roster in rebuilding times than in... That's a good point. So I think when he's kind of, when he's been at, when he's had his best years, I think it's like, man, you know, he has no attachment to the guys who are there or he really feels like this, this needs to be upgraded.

And I think that in times, in the maintenance stage, it's not just those, from my perspective and evaluating howley, it's not just those short-term moves that you're doing this to put you over the edge, but it's also like a belief in the guys that you've brought in, that you've signed that they're either going to continue at that level or that they're going to play at that level like in in 2016 and 2017 he didn't have those draft picks that he was attached to a matter fact the draft picks he was attached to were the guys from like a few years earlier ertz and lane and viny curry our friend vini curry um and so uh that and i think you see that now like even even with like relying on some of these guys that he drafted there's

There's like a belief in you are viewing it through the spectrum of like, we believe in this guy. And I think that's part of the maintenance stage is that who you're turning it over to are guys you're invested in. I have two more questions for you as we close in on the hour mark. You mentioned your grandfather for dedication. Yeah. Why? You're going to be emotional. I have such sincere respect for my grandfather.

He, uh, he's, he's the man. Like, I mean, that's, I know it's very generic, but he is, he's a great man who's been a formative figure in my life and specifically mentioning him here because, uh, like, he's the one who taught me football, basically. Like, I learned math. My grandfather's great with, with numbers, but I was, no joke, like a four and five year old in the back seat of the car. And he would say three touchdowns, a field goal in a,

safety, right? How much, and that's how I would, I learned math that way. And then point spreads. Like, it was a great story. Yeah. I was probably, it was probably five or six come to think, but I remember distinctly, like distinctly sitting there with him. And he would, he would just, he would just do that. And point spreads. Um, everything was like, it wasn't the Eagles won 27, 24. It was, did they cover three and a half, right? Or that, that kind of thing. So I, that, and then he's, you got to get him on Bet365. Yeah. He's been,

he's been, he's, he's read, you know, when I was younger, read all my stuff, uh, was a tough editor,

like my high school papers. He would edit my high school papers. Um, and he was, uh, and he's just been, he's, he's,

he's been a big advocate for me. He's been, you know, he's, he's believed in me and, and, uh, in a lot of different transitions in my life.

And so, um, yeah, he was a very, you know, my, my first book, I dedicated my father.

But this one, I was trying to think, like, I was going to do a dedication to like all Eagles fans or that kind of thing. But I wanted to make it personal on my grandfather. It's very meaningful to me. That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. You've done a few book events now. Is there a question that you have been hoping to get asked that has not been asked yet?

Well, this is a fun interview. I'm really enjoying this. And I said, this is no fault of anyone. Like you read the book, which I appreciate because you can have a more sophisticated conversation about it. Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty hard on myself. Like the, you know, stuff that I would have left out or stuff that I left out. You want to drag yourself through the mud. You want to be asked about.

Yeah, because I think I. That's crazy. No, because I think Asante Samuel, Troy, like, and Trent Cole, John Runyon, Trey Thomas, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor. They deserve recognition here. If I'm having a book. Yeah, but you can't write about everybody. Yeah, but I wanted to mention that. I really think, like, seeing where the organization is now, you can see a lot of how it started.

You know, their core philosophies, how they were put in place with Andy and Joe Banner and Jeffrey Lurie 25 years ago. But also, in my epilogue, I wrote it when, you know, Julia Bow, Jamie, we were at the Brian Dawkins Golf Tournament. Yes. And I came back and I thought it was. was like really poignant the life cycle in the NFL in that that day. So we're at this golf tournament and you have Javan Kurses there. You have Brian Westbrook there. You have Jeremiah Trotter there.

You know, I mean, obviously Brian Dawkins. You go on down the list. Kelsey as well. Yeah. And then literally on that day on the transaction log, Jason Kelsey and Fletcher Cox officially retired. That day, the Eagles had mini-camp. Cam Juergens took over

you know he's in Jason Kelsey's locker Jeremiah Trotter Jr. I'm sorry, they had OTAs. Jeremiah Trotter Jr. is on the field and you see this life cycle like Fletcher Cox always said said he's only running space and that was like really reinforced that day

and what indoors honestly is the fans, you know, are the fans like they are the enduring threat here. There's going to be a day when Joey and Lori runs the team, not Jeffrey Lorry, right? There's going to be a lot, you know,

I'm curious to see what the next 25 years holds. You know, Jeffrey Lurie talking about the use of AI and things like that. But the point is this, is like, bet the under. What indoors? What indoors are the fans?

And that was really reinforced to me that day more than anything because you saw this life cycle of a franchise. Well, you can become a die-hard. hard. And if you're a diehard, you can also get tickets and hear a little bit more about this book with Zach next Monday night. Go to all p.hly.com and check that out. We have a super chat from CDP who says Trevor Lawrence publicly defended Doug Peterson today. Is that allowed? Well, they have their moments. So they have more than their moments, I guess. Apparently, yeah. Yeah, they have their, yeah. Okay. Anything else?

I think I've covered my big question. I so appreciate this. This means a lot that you were willing to do this. Of course. Devote a show to this. I have a lot of audience members who've reached out, and I have a shipment that I'm sending out tomorrow of personalized books that now this is the thing. I need to get more copies in, okay?

And so these are going to go out. Some are going to go out tomorrow. Some are going to go out next week. but if you want a personalized copy, you can send me a DM on Twitter at Z-Burm, Instagram Z-U-S-U-S-Urman, or email me at Zach at all-P-H-L-Y.com. I know I had mentioned the website part of it, but like I created a website, but then it wasn't going to be like an e-commerce thing, right? So you were just going to email me anyways, like you would, because I need to know how you want

it personalized and that kind of thing. and so this is the most direct way to do it. Okay. Here it is. The franchise, Philadelphia Eagles, a curated history of the birds. Get it wherever books are sold. Reach out to Zach and get your signed copy. Fantastic.

Thank you for doing this set. Thank you for doing it. This means a lot. Of course. Now, you and I are done for the week. It's the bye week. I know you're going to be working. Yeah.

But tomorrow it's going to be Roy and handsome Rit. at 2 o'clock and then on Friday Fran and Rich to take you through whatever else is going on with the Eagles. I don't know. Are you expecting any news for the rest of this week? I'm not. I made the joke. You're hoping not. A Devin White could be that Friday afternoon or like when the Phillies have their first pitch of the playoff game.

You sneak in there. But no, I am not expecting news this weekend. I have a feature that I'm going to run on Monday or Tuesday next week. I have a thoughts column that's up today, and I might sneak one more thing in the end of this week. But make sure you check out. Sninky. Fran has two pieces up. Les has a piece up.

So make sure you check out our Eagles coverage on all Ph.O.I.com. All right. Well, let's close it out as the chat is doing as we celebrate our boy. Zach, Zach, Zach, Zach. Thank you, everybody for watching and listening. We will talk to you tomorrow at 2 o'clock. Thanks to Julia. And as always, we love you.

Mayor.