PHNX Arizona Diamondbacks Podcast - Ep. 24: Following an abysmal 2020, where do the D-backs go from here?

Episode Date: December 15, 2020

We identify the biggest holes on the D-backs' roster and our favorite ideas for filling them. We also delve into some potential concerns with the D-backs' draft strategy and address the not-so-crazy idea of selling off the franchise's main pieces in hopes of contending further down the road. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 24 of the Rattle Podcast. We know it has been a while to say the least. 2020 has certainly had one adventure right after another in store for us, and I'm sure all of you at home as well. But we are excited to be back with you and bring some more commentary here about the Arizona Diamondbacks. Obviously, in 2020, things didn't go quite as planned for this team, Jeff. but frankly what really did go as planned in 2020 all things considered yeah i mean i think everyone is at their wits end we're like counting down the days luckily there aren't too many

left we can flip the calendar and hope that that magically solves a whole bunch of problems um but yeah definitely uh a time now as we you know near the end of the year to start looking forward, which, you know, if you're Diamondbacks fan, that's, that's good news. We will go through that painful process of recounting some of the things that did happen this year for the team. But yeah, as Jeff said, there are also more exciting things to come, hopefully, for this team. There's reason to believe that maybe, although I think it's good, Jeff, to sort of be realistic about what happened, not just brush this off as, you know, a 60-game aberration, weird season, weird year.

We're going to come back next year and pretend this didn't happen. There are certainly good lessons to be taken away from what happened to this team in 2020. I think this young core, which I guess is really not so young anymore to this day with David Peralta, Nick Ahmed, Eduardo Escobar, some of these guys getting up near 30 or even on the other, on the backside of 30, right? And at a certain point, I think it's probably going to come time not too far from now where the Diamondbacks decide that it is really time to move on from the core that they have in place right now.

But all indications seem to be right now that the Diamondbacks are going to give this one more shot. They're maybe not going to be as aggressive as they were last year when they went out. They got Starling Marte. They really tried to push their chips in to really be a genuine contender. I don't think we'll see that kind of movement this offseason. but Jeff, it seems to be somewhat reasonable to think the Diamondbacks still have some faith in this group. And they're going to come back and be, you know, maybe not as aggressive as they were last season,

but still try to put a competitive team on the field and give this group one last shot at things. Yeah, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. I mean, we can look across the roster and see a whole bunch of, you know, kind of abrupt downturns for several guys that just all struggle. all the same time for whatever reason. But yeah, I think there's still talent there. I think Joshua wrote a really great piece the other day at The Rattle. And, you know, just about Eduardo Escobar is like a key example of a guy who

been a really steady producer and just fell straight off a cliff. And, you know, do you give up on that? I mean, he's under contract. So, you know, it's a difficult thing to maybe move on from logistically. but also you you kind of see that okay maybe there were some issues here and some of the underlying things you know some of his his batted ball data maybe suggests that it wasn't quite as bad as it looked and you just kind of hope that you can write the ship and if you do that you know in a spot or two you know you get like a natural boost without having to add anybody else or commit any extra dollars so I think you know probably

the smart play is to take advantage of, you know, the longer off season, I guess, since the regular season ended. And there wasn't any postseason action for the dive-of-backs. And, you know, just hope you kind of get guys back on the right track. And I think that could be done. I mean, Madison Bungarner had a terrible time. But, you know, we probably all know he's a little better than he showed. And you just kind of compile, you know, and compound some of maybe a few bouncebacks. And next thing you know, it's like not. looking so bad. I mean, I don't think that means you're going to run down the Dodgers, but at the same time, you may not be just an automatic bottom dweller either.

Yeah, well, frankly, there's not been a whole lot of excitement so far to this point in the off season, to say the least. We just had the winter meetings, I'm told Jeff, but I'm not super convinced that it actually happened because, frankly, there's been pretty much no news, no significant news anyway, that has come out of Major League Baseball in quite some time. But there are a couple of storylines that are a little bit more recent that we want to get to on the front end. And then, of course, here as the show goes along, we'll jump into what the Diamondback specifically might be looking to add here over the offseason. But some of those headlines, the first one, this is sort of like the most recent piece here as we record this right now. Jared Porter has been hired by the New York Mets to be their new general manager.

Jared Porter moving from the desert back out to the east coast. Of course, he was with the Boston Red Sox for quite some time, went over to the Chicago Cubs for a couple of years, and then came over to the Diamondbacks. Now he's headed back over to the East Coast to be at the helm with the New York Mets. And frankly, Jeff, I feel pretty honored that, you know, in some way Arizona sports could contribute to just all of the wonderful things that have happened over the Mets franchise history over the last decade or so.

It has been a bit of a dry spell over there. there in New York for the Mets. And I think in some ways, they've sort of become the laughing stock of baseball in sort of an odd way where they have some very talented players. I mean, they have freaking Jacob de Grom on their staff. And yet somehow it seems like they're just always getting all sorts of just bad, bad coverage from the media. And of course, being in the New York market, I'm sure doesn't really do them any favors,

maybe a slightly less patient bunch than maybe some of the other markets around the league would be. But it's Jared Porter's team now, essentially, as he moves over there to be the general manager. And by all accounts, Jeff, this was sort of only a matter of time from the Diamondbacks perspective. Both Jared Porter and Amiel Saaday, one of the other big guys in the Diamondbacks front office have been sought after for several different GM positions over the last few months. and Jared Porter's the first one to go and probably won't be too long before Ami El Sadei has a similar day come up for himself. Yeah, I think that's right.

I mean, both of those fellows have been mentioned prominently over the last couple off seasons as GM candidates. They both interviewed for positions before. And so it did really feel like a matter of time. And so, I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's a little bittersweet, right? You're happy that a guy who, you know, from all reports, you know, did nothing but good things for the organization, finally gets a chance to, you know, run his own. And Steve Cohen, the new owner of the Mets, has certainly been a lot of fun. If you're not on Twitter, he is stirring the pot quite a bit as an owner.

It seems to be kind of primed to maybe flip some of the less palatable aspects of ownership on their head and maybe be kind of. of a breath of fresh air in that regard and Jared Porter's is man so that'll be really interesting I'm not sure we can take any direct credit for any success that immediately follows for the Mets but uh you know we'll certainly wish Jared Porter well uh at the very least and you know kind of see how long they can hold on to Amiel Saade as well um you know wouldn't be shocking if uh you know a year from now we're having this conversation but he's the one going out the door so Mike Hazen brought a lot of talent with him when he came to Arizona. Sure.

You know, the opportunities are going to come up elsewhere around the league, and you can't keep these guys forever. So best of luck to Jared Porter. What a concept. Another team pursuing a front office member from the Arizona Diamondbacks franchise. It's crazy. I mean, right now it doesn't feel so surprising, you know, since Mike Hayes and his companies have been generally pretty steady.

the Diamondbacks are generally viewed pretty positively by the public, I would say. But it is, I mean, you look back five or ten years ago to the Dave Stewart, Tony Larusa regime, even some of the regimes prior to that. It is a good feeling as much as we maybe can't take credit for the future success that I'm sure Jared Porter will have. It certainly bears a good light on the Diamondbacks organization that, hey, other teams are looking into the Diamondbacks organization to try to hire people away. And I think even though, you know, you're losing talent, which, you know, is never good. Jared Porter, I'm sure, will be a hard guy to replace. But it definitely bears good light on the organization that these kinds of things are happening.

It does. I mean, you're right. It's been a while. We've sat through some eras where it seemed like, you know, no one really wanted at all. The guys that were even running the team currently. So I'll refrain from making any Tony Larissa jokes now. and yeah we can just see how that goes in Chicago but yeah it is it is refreshing and it does sort of shed some light on you know what uh what Mike hasten has brought with him what he's developed and

what he's built underneath him and it does certainly you know speak well for the organization that you are employing people that are you know viewed as assets league wide Andrew AJT on Twitter asked us a question relating to the Jared Porter hire that we might as well jump into now. He said, is Jared Porter a good choice for the Mets is their new GM? And what does he excel at? As far as whether he's a good choice or not, by all accounts, it seems like he's a great choice. I mean, there's a reason that Jared Porter, I think I've seen his name in basically every

GM search is, you know, one of four or five names that a team was considering in their GM search. So he certainly has a good amount of credibility just around the game, it seems like. And beyond that, from what you've told me, Jeff, I don't know his background as well as you do, but it seems like he really has a feel when it comes to scouting players and not only scouting players, but scouting scouts around the league that could, you know, come and maybe bring in some players themselves. Yeah, that really seems to be where his acumen lies. And so, I mean, anytime you have a measured advantage in really any way, but certainly in a way, when it comes to the evaluation of talent and perhaps the evaluation of the people that are doing the day-to-day

evaluation of talent, that's a real asset to have. And I don't think that we would give necessarily Jared Porter all of the credit for the way that the Diamondbacks is farm system and core of young and developing players has improved over the last few years, but I think we'd be remiss to not give him any credit whatsoever either. And so if he can bring a bit of, you know, what the Diamondbacks have done with him to New York in that regard, building what is, you know, Arizona has, you know, what's considered a pretty solid, if not, you know, above average scouting staff,

you know, and certainly are in high regard when it comes to evaluating players. So, you know, if he can bring those talents with him to New York, I think that's, I think that's a lot of the allure right there. And it'll, it'll serve New York especially well, considering the resources that they may have at their disposal that Jared Porter, frankly, you know, in Mike Hazen, may not have necessarily their disposal to the same magnitude in Arizona. Yeah, absolutely. Another piece of news that has come out recently, minor league baseball has happened. news that I think is probably more sad than anything else, but it seems like around the league, pretty much every major league team is cut one, possibly as many as two teams from their own minor league group. We've sort of seen minor league baseball purged from a number of cities around

the U.S., which, of course, is, you know, a sad thing to see regardless of, you know, obviously there's reasons why these things happened and people have, you know, different viewpoints on whether this is sort of how things should have come down or not. But regardless of whether, you know, this happened for a good reason or not, you have to acknowledge, I mean, the loss of minor league baseball in small towns across America. I mean, that's really sad. I mean, for, you know, for a lot of these towns are very, very small cities with not a whole lot going on.

And minor league baseball, as much as, you know, in the national viewpoint is not really, you know, that big of a deal, whether they have, you know, good baseball. baseball showings in Kalamazoo, Michigan or whatnot. But, but, you know, to each of those individual cities, it sort of becomes, you know, the lifeblood of the game in a way. And to see that, to see that sort of taken away from a number of cities around the U.S. is certainly sad to see. For the Diamondbacks specifically, some things have changed. They no longer have the Kane County team out in the Chicago area. The Diamondbacks will no longer have that team. Their AAA Reno team will stay the same.

AA flips from Jackson to Amarillo, Texas, which is a little bit closer to Arizona, of course. And then Hillsborough, instead of being a low A short season team, is now a high A team, so they'll move on to full season ball. And then their team in Vysalia will still exist, but that team will be downgraded from the full season ball back down to the short season ball. So Vysalia and Hillsborough in some sense,

sort of switching roles there. Jeff, as far as the Diamondbacks are concerned and maybe baseball at large, what do you see all of these changes? What do you see the impact of all of this being? Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I think your point about the impact on communities is, you know, well stated. And I think for a lot of baseball fans, the first game they'll recall going to is a minor league baseball game.

Sure. where a lot of us kind of saw her first baseball action. I certainly is true for myself. And so, yeah, I mean, for folks that don't live within, you know, driving, you know, easy driving to a major league ballpark and or can't afford to experience a major league game, minor league baseball is really the entry point, you know, for baseball. So in that respect, it's sad.

You know, I think kind of at large, it looks like a lot of organizations took the opportunity to sort of collectively move their affiliates like closer to the major league city. So, you know, I think I think that was a big opportunity for teams as they tried to reshuffle the, you know, the cards that were left and, you know, reorganize their affiliates. I think we mentioned the twins, certainly moved their AAA team much closer. There are a number of squads that really tried to sort of quit for being spread out across the country, and at least get things back a little bit closer. And for the debacks, that was the move to Amarillo from Jackson.

And that will help them in a sense. Texas is certainly closer than the southeast. And so that will make things a little bit easier for executives who would like to go down and take a look at the players down in AA. It's becoming more and more common for players to be. promoted to the major straight from double A. And so, you know, you think about a flight from, you know, trying to get a guy to Phoenix from Jackson, it might be a little bit easier to get them there from Texas.

And I think one thing that's kind of interesting about that move in particular is that, you know, Amarillo is sort of a physical environment that's probably closer to Reno and nature. Sure. At elevation being dry. And probably a little more like Phoenix itself, I don't think it, It's probably a little more extreme in terms of hitter-friendlyness than probably Phoenix is. But, yeah, I think it might help, whereas I think the Southern League was noted as being pretty heavily a pitcher's league down in Texas. The ball is going to fly a little better.

So we might not see some of those big drastic changes between how a guy produces in AA and then how they produce in AAA. You probably see a little steadier production there. Hillsborough being the high A club, you know, the Northwest League is a pitcher's environment. So that jump from Hillsborough to Amarillo will be interesting. And likewise, the jump from Vicerlia to Hillsborough will be interesting. I mean, Vyselia and what's left in the Cal League is, you know, generally, fairly hitter-friendly environment. So there's really only one sort of pitcher-friendly place in the organization, and that's going to be Hillsborough for now. So that'll certainly be interesting.

but yeah, a big reshuffling of things. I'm hopefully going to get to see a lot more baseball in Hillsborough, and I won't be upset about that, but it does kind of come at a cost when you consider that I think there were like 42, you know, minor league teams that are no more in the way they were before. So, yeah, definitely a big piece of news that's really consumed kind of the dialogue for, you know, several months now. Well, there's not really much else to talk about, right?

As far as baseball is concerned, we're sort of still waiting around for the hot stove to heat up. It is December, right? This is the time when, you know, a lot of big things are usually coming down. This is when the Madison Bumgarner. I think we're actually like a day or two away from the one-year anniversary of the Madison Bumgarner move. We'll have to throw something on on Twitter when that day happens. I don't know if people will be that day fondly now in hindsight or what exactly people feel about

that. But on that note, let's jump into the roster here, Jeff. The Diamondbacks, obviously things did not go well, to say the least, this last season for the Diamondbacks. They went so far as to take a pretty aggressive selling approach at the deadline. And a lot of people, I think, were, you know, obviously sort of sad, especially for a guy like Archie Bradley, who would sort of become the face of the franchise. And the team will certainly have a different feel going in. into next season without Archie, you know, sort of penciled in already at the back end.

But let's just start sort of going around the horn here with the Diamondbacks, what they currently have, what they might be looking to acquire at different positions around the Diamond. And we'll start at Catcher because maybe that's the easiest place to start. You've still got Carson Kelly, of course, in place there who did not have a spectacular offensive season this last year, which, of course, he was not alone in. And similarly, Stephen Vote, who is also figures to be his partner in crime there behind home plate, Stephen Vote also had a pretty rough go of things offensively this last season. But Jeff, safe to say, those are sort of the two main guys who figure to get the reps behind

home plate this season. Yeah, nothing really changes there, I don't think. You know, Stephen Vote didn't play a ton, but on a pro-rated basis, his option vested, and so he'll be back with the team. And, you know, Carson Kelly, I mean, we kind of let off with, like, you know, the team needing some bouncebacks. And, man, Carson Kelly is one of those guys that, you know, it's there. He has the ability, you know, and his drop-off was very, very noticeable.

So if they can get him kind of, you know, back to where he was, that's a big shot in the arm. And he should catch plenty next year with definitely with Bowdo's backup. And those are probably the two guys that catch. you know, you know, injuries notwithstanding, you know, like the, you know, 90 plus percent of the games. Yeah, I don't really see a reason for the Diamondbacks to need to add anything at catching, which is really sort of a sort of a new thing. It seems like they're always playing the market for, you know, some sort of a veteran backup

catcher. But they seem to have things in place there with votes option vesting, as you mentioned. So you've got Carson Kelly and Stephen Vote figured to be behind home plate. which last year, it's sort of funny to think about it. At one point, we were all sort of dreaming about all of the offense that could come out of a, you know, a platoon. If you've got Carson Kelly going against a lot of the lefties and Stephen Vote against a lot of the righties, you know, we figured that would be a pretty dynamic offensive duo. But of course, things didn't quite turn out that way. Moving on from the catching side of things, though, let's just open it to the infield as a whole.

So you figure the corners are sort of penciled in, right? Walker is going to be your first baseman. He's one guy who last year, I wouldn't say he necessarily rose above expectations, but he certainly performed relatively well. He was not among the players who had a super steep drop-off last season for this team. Eduardo Escobar, of course, is one of those players. But as we alluded to earlier, go check out our website, the rattle.net, Joshua Inman, one of our other one of our other writers wrote a good piece about why it might not be time to quit on

Eduardo Escobar just yet. There's certainly still some things there that could turn around for Eduardo. He figures to be the everyday third baseman, Jeff, as far as I can tell, I don't, I don't really see a need for the team to go out and try to acquire some other third baseman. I think at this point, it's basically like the Diamondbacks have a good shot to improve next year if Eduardo Escobar gets better. And if not, it's just not going to happen. they're not going to really find something on the market that's going to be a significant improvement over that. I mean, I was hearing that they were definitely in on trading for Nolan Aronado,

and that deal was close, but it fell apart. Yeah, that's a shame. It was right there. Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's definitely Eduardo Escobar's position to own. And if there's a guy that you're looking for a big turnaround from, got to be him. You know, it's just, it's just hard to see them really making the kind of push that I think they want to make, you know, without him being, you know, a much more valuable contributor. He was just absolutely awful last year. There's really no other way to say it. It was just terrible.

But at the same time, some of the underlying stuff that Joshua detailed does suggest that still in there. So, you know, one of the other things that, you know, he'll certainly get his chance because there's not much behind him. There's no one that's really going to push him, you know, back to the dugout and put him on the bench, you know, the majority of the time. The guys behind him right now figured to maybe be, you know, some combination of Andy Young and Josh Rojas.

neither of those guys have done nearly enough in the majors to warrant, you know, eschewing Eduardo Escobar's, you know, chance at redemption. So I think it's, he'll be the everyday third baseman, and I think he'll get a pretty long look, even if the start is slow again. I would imagine he gets, you know, a good amount of, a good amount of leash to try to turn it around before the trade deadline. This is his last year under contract, I believe. So he has a lot of motivation to come back and show that, you know, he can still be a potent threat because, you know, he's about to turn 32.

You know, you know, the sand is running through the hourglass, you know, for him. If he wants another deal beyond this one, it's any kind of lucrative. He's going to have to have a big season. Yeah, for sure. I think Eduardo Escobar is one of those guys you say it right now, probably a relatively big X-factor for this diamond back. team in 2021. I mean, he was, he was, I mean, post Paul Goldschmidt, I mean, Eduardo Escobar is about as, about as important to this offense as anyone except for Catele. I mean, there really hasn't been anyone who has been more responsible for the diamondbacks

excelling offensively since the departure of Goldschmidt than Eduardo Escobar, other than, as I said, of course, Catell himself. So he's going to be a big guy for the diamond backs, but he's someone you sort of just have to pencil in their third base and really, hope for the best. I don't think there's anything to be had out there on the market. The Diamondbacks could afford anyway. Moving to the middle infield, of course, you've got Nick Ahmed still under contract after that extension he signed before the beginning of last season. So Ahmed will be here for several more seasons. So he's, of course, here. Penciled in is your everyday shortstop. And then at second base, Jeff, that's where things get a little more interesting.

There are those who would say you should put Catele there. Catell is pre-Cetel. previously expressed that that is his comfort zone. He would prefer to be at second base rather than in center field, which is where he's, of course, also been used a decent amount over the last couple of years. But when you sort of think about, you know, the value of putting Gattel at second versus the value of putting him in center field when he's, you know, at least average or better defensively at probably both of those spots, you sort of instinctively want to, you know, get the most bang for your buck and stick him out in center field. And, and, and, and, and, you know, and, you know, maybe see what's out there on the market at second base.

So a lot of different ways the Diamondbacks could go at second base, Jeff. What are your thoughts on what the best approach might be for this team at that position? Yeah, that's, you know, once again, I mean, we were very much having this conversation at this time last year. Yep. About sort of where to, you know, where to employ Coteau-Marté. and I think if we look just you know this again I think is sort of an indicator of how serious the organization is about really contending and contending like you know there are a lot of ways to interpret that word but if they're going to say it in the way that I think fans want them to say it moving Catea off of second base and back to center field at least part time probably makes the most sense and it's something they might have to do.

I love Marte at second base. He's a good second baseman. He's fun to watch at second base. But when we kind of survey the market, the options in center field just aren't really there. If we think about the payroll situation, there's not a ton of money committed in 2021, but we also know that ownership and the club

as in case with a lot of clubs in baseball, is going to be hesitant to spend. And so if you're kind of looking for like budget type options, there's a whole lot more to pick from at second base than there is to pick for in center field. And, you know, I think that might end up kind of making their decision, you know, a little easier for them. And so, you know, if your combination in center field is like, okay,

and second base is, well, you're going to play Marte at second and have some combination of Dalton Varshow and Tim LeCastro on center field, you know, you might be significantly better off to put Cotel Marte in center field and look at a number of the second base options that can be had for, you know, somewhere around, you know, four to eight million dollars on like a one-year deal.

So they could probably get more bang for the buck if they are willing to add a second base and move Marte back to center field. You know, long term, in back at second base. I think as he gets a little older, that's probably his natural home, but you may need to spend a good chunk of another year in center before really settling into second base. We know that the organization has all of the depth really, you know, in the outfield in terms of prospects coming up. So second base is probably Marte's long-term home, but we might

not quite be there yet. Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned earlier, you know, we were in the exact same place about a year ago from now, right? When the diamondbacks were, you know, thinking about do you throw Kattel back at second? Do you put him in center? What do you do? He had some injury issues at the end of 2019 that some people had attributed to maybe all of the time on his feet out in the outfield. Maybe that was a factor there. And that time, a year ago, of course, the diamondbacks took the more expensive route, right? They went for a premium option in center field in Starling Marte and they stuck Cotel Marte back in his more comfortable position in second base. And here this season, right?

I mean, maybe they could do something similar on the trade market, right? There might be a Starling Marte-esque type player out there. But this Diamondbacks team, I don't think there's really any question at this point. After having the season they just had, you're certainly not going to go spend a bunch of prospect capital trying to get a Starling Marte type asset at the price that a guy like that would command. And so, yeah, it seems like the sort of the balance here, right, to sort of try to put your best foot forward and try to, you know, be the very best team that you can be is to put Katel in center and still make an investment, but make that investment at second base, where, as you said, you can probably get more. You can probably make the Diamondbacks a better team spending $5 million at second base than you can spending $5 million in center field.

So, yeah, so that'll be interesting to see how. how things play out there. I know we can even jump into some specific names of guys they might look at at second base. At center field, I guess we can start there just to sort of show people what we mean. You're probably looking at maybe Kevin Pilar or Jackie Bradley Jr. as maybe being guys sort of in that Diamondbacks mid lower tier price range.

But Jeff, I think it's safe to say we have some concerns with those guys or not they actually make this team any better? Yeah, I mean, Kevin Pilar has not been a potent hitter for the vast majority of his career and the defense has started to slide. It's even questionable how good of a center fielder he is. Really, at this point, as he, you know, starts to push, you know, past 30, 31 and into 32. You know, and Jackie Bradley Jr., for, you know, for the times that he's been really excellent and he is a good defensive center fielder.

He's had just as much or more production that's been really subpar. And so, you know, how comfortable are you with that? And he is coming off of a good season in a small sample. So what's the market look like there? I think that's, you know, we're all still trying to figure out what the market's going to do, especially for some of these types of cases. I think it's really hard to know where he ends up signing and what he ends up signing for. So not a ton of confidence there.

Just don't feel super good about it. Could go that route, but I think the market would have to come back a little bit in that regard. Whereas, you know, it's second base. There's just, you know, the market has, it has premium names like DJ Lemayhew. And it's sort of saturated. I mean, second base is a little bit saturated in terms of who's available. And so I just think even the amount of supply. will help drive down the cost and some of these less expensive options.

Yeah, talking about those more specific names at second base, I think some of the guys who have come up. Colton Wong is a guy I've heard thrown out there. I know on the MLBTR list, they had Colton Wong maybe on there as a suitor for the Diamondbacks. I'm not sure if they would quite climb the ladder that high. He might make maybe a little more money than some of the other guys. but even a guy like Cesar Hernandez who is, you know, I think around 32 years old,

don't have his name right in front of me right at the moment, but he's definitely in his 30s. But he's still a really productive player, all things considered. And along those same lines, Tommy Lestella, a guy who's right in that 30, that age 30 range, who's still a very productive hitter. You look at some of the numbers that Tommy Lestella has posted, you know, lately. He's certainly, you know, not a flashy name. to have playing second base, but Tommy Lestela is probably better than a lot of people think he is, and certainly better than anyone, any other option the Diamondbacks have, right?

If you put Cotel Marte in center, you know, Tommy Lestella, any of these guys I've mentioned, Cesar Hernandez, even Jonathan's scope is another guy you could consider who no one has heard of because he plays for the Baltimore Orioles or has played for the Baltimore Orioles. But it's also probably a lot better than people think he is. pencil in one of those three guys at second base, suddenly I think you're, you've clearly taken a pretty big step forward on the offensive side for the Diamondbacks. Yeah, I think so. I mean, Lestella's a guy who can really hit, but he hasn't played a lot.

He gets hurt quite a bit. And then again, you think about, well, okay, I have, you know, sort of surplus pieces here to balance between center field and second base. Maybe he doesn't need to play every day. And maybe you can kind of get him through a full season that way. You know, so that's certainly an interesting option. I think Cesar Hernandez is entering his age 30, 31 season. I think he's probably your most obvious, just like plug and play kind of guy.

Yeah. He just slots straight in there and Cattel just becomes your centerfielder. And another option that I think is kind of interesting as Jurex and Profar, who had a decent season a year ago with the Padre. He'd be back in the division scene some familiar pitchers again, which might be helpful to him. He's a guy who is a switch hitter. He can play second base.

Or, you know, if you needed to move him out to the outfield, you know, he can play left field too. So if you're really looking for like ultimate roster utility, then maybe that's a direction you go. But there are just a lot of, there are a lot of, you know, choices here. And Jonathan's scope is the youngest of the bunch. I mean, he's going to enter his age 29 season. He has played for some really miserable teams, some not so good, you know, kind of the

down years of the Orioles. and then most recently with the Tigers I mean he's been sort of under the radar but the production has been pretty steady and pretty solid so there's a lot more to pick from here and I just think anytime you can

sort of stack some of these elements on top of themselves you'll end up getting yourself a better deal and we just know that I mean as we'll get to these aren't the only holes that backs will have to fill so you know maybe they don't climb the ladder for Colton Long I mean that might be really interesting but

there are certainly some like low cost options that won't require like multi-year commitments that just sort of allow them to sort of you know play it out a year and see how it goes in a sense i feel like uh sazar hernandez might be might be difficult just because you know he's a guy who will certainly expect to play every day played 161 games for the phillies in 2018 161 in 2019 uh 58 games in a 60 game season last year so he's certainly an everyday guy and if you're you stick him at second base and could tell as your everyday center fielder, Dalton Varsho might sort of not really find a good position at that point, which then again, not finding a position for Dalton Varsho is not exactly a new problem for the Diamondbacks.

But yeah, so certainly some different options that they could look at as far as that second base thought is concerned. And from there, we can open up things into the outfield. Things in the corners are pretty much set as your everyday guys, Colkow. Cahoon had maybe the best season of any Diamondback offensively last year. I think Cole Calhoun was about as consistent as Diamondback's hitters came last season, which of course is not saying much, but he really did have a pretty exceptional year, all things considered.

So he's pretty much penciled in right away as your everyday right fielder, David Peralta and left, as we've talked about Cotel Marte. Hopefully, from our standpoint, it seems like it makes the most sense for him to slide in at center field. Dalton Varshow probably figures to maybe get some reps in center at some point as well. Tim LaCastro, of course, also on the roster. Jeff, any additions that you would like to make in the outfield? Yeah, I think the one remaining piece of the team has spoken about is the need to get a right-handed corner outfield bat at the ready, both Peralta and Calhoun are lefty swingers. And, you know, we were talking before the show. There were just times when they just,

just, you know, a lefty was on the mound, and it just really felt like the diamondbacks were really a bad or too short. So I think one guy that sort of jumps out at me as being a good target here would be a guy like Robbie Grossman. You know, he's been in the league for, you know, a surprising number of years now. I think he's entering probably his eighth season. He's about to turn 31. But, you know, there was a time when Robbie Grossman was really, I think, considered a, you know,

a top flight prospect man he means but it's someone with a really like regular big league future and it's been kind of a slow burn for him he's had some like he's had some pretty good seasons but i don't think he's ever been just truly truly incredible um but then you sort of look at it you know from a distance and start to see the production over time and you really kind of realize he's a you know he's a really sort of sneaky good hitter um he could play both corners i think you could probably play center field in the pinch if you really had to um you certainly don't want to do that bat, but he'd probably pull it off. So he's a guy that just makes a ton of sense to me.

I do believe he is also a switch hitter, but he, you know, has fared over the course of his career better as a right-handed batterer. So he just makes a ton of sense to me. I mean, if a Peralta or Calhoun goes down with an injury, here's a guy who is, you know, fully capable of taking an everyday rollover and just really being that guy. and if not he's someone who can split time giving Calhoun and Peralta, who let's face it, aren't super young players anymore. You know, kind of alternating, giving them some time off, et cetera,

you know, batting as a pinch hitter late in games. I think he makes a ton of sense, and I think he'll be very affordable. And so he's a name I'm watching pretty closely. Yeah, I mean, based on the fact that probably 80% of our listeners don't know who Robbie Grossman is, probably not the most expensive name on the market. Yeah. Yeah, I think that certainly makes a ton of sense for the Diamondbacks.

They really don't have a whole lot more to add, other than that clear hole at second base that we identified. On the offensive end, it really seems like just that hole at second base, and maybe, as you said, one corner outfield piece with Peralta and Cole Calhoun. They also had John Jay last year, another lefty last season, which felt just really overkill with a left-handed, with a left-handed bats. It really seemed like they just didn't really have enough punch on their bench or in the starting lineup itself when it came to facing lefties. So I think that's an issue they'll certainly look to address. But yeah, other than that, I mean, the offense feels relatively well said.

Of course, you've got some other guys sort of looming in the wings, Josh Rojas, who, you know, it things. have not been super great for him since making his major league debut back in 2019. We're still sort of waiting to see the bat come around. But he's, I'm sure, a name and a guy who will be around and has at least a decent chance to make the opening day roster. Andy Young had some good big moments last year. I think there was a walk-off win that Andy Young was responsible for getting started, if I remember correctly. I think he

would really seem to be his final numbers, if you look back, we're not particularly good. But he drew a lot of walks. He seemed to have some really poised at bats in the what little opportunity he had last season. So I think there's certainly something there where you'll probably

see Andy Young still get some looks as well. Any other names that sort of come to mind, Jeff, is guys who might be a candidate to replace one of the starters. If something were to happen or other guys you see sort of on the brink of making the major league roster not particularly um as like real true locks but some guys that are just am going to be interested

to follow um will certainly be paven smith who continues to get more work um from the sounds of it in the outfield um yeah and and he's a lefty and i don't really know that it fits or is all that helpful but at the same time I'm really interested in how it continues to develop for him he's never quite hit the way that I think everyone helped when he was drafted but you know from all reports and the guy continues to work really hard

I mean he made his debut last year and so we'll kind of see what you know 2021 holds for Pavin Smith like that could be kind of interesting and then another guy will be interested in his recent edition Josh Van Meter, who came over from Cincinnati. A younger player who doesn't have a ton of experience under his belt. But that'll be kind of a fun guy who's already on the 40-man roster, I think, is someone who's probably about just a phone call away. So he's another guy who I will be interested to see sort of how it goes.

But I think you laid it out. I mean, you've kind of named the guys who I think we have a pretty good idea of who will be there. there's kind of two slots to fill if they really are serious like they are saying they're serious you know to me that's a second baseman and you know a corner outfield bat who bats right-handed but yeah I think that's other than that I think we pretty much know who we're going to see yeah another name we mentioned just a couple times but I think it's worth talking about him at least a little more is Dalton Varshow I mean he's basically the organization's number one prospector at least number one prospect who's, you know, cracked the major league roster.

He was, you know, at times you sort of saw flashes of, oh, wow, this kid is pretty good, you know, whether it's, you know, an opposite field gapper or just something that you don't really see too often from other hitters. But Dalton Varshow, I think we generally feel good about where he's at as a player, even though the numbers won't necessarily look pretty looking back for Varshow in his debut season. than last year. But it's sort of hard because you don't necessarily pencil Varsho in as, oh, he's your everyday second baseman or your everyday center fielder, as we've said.

It's sort of hard to put that kind of faith in him. But at the same time, you have to feel that Dalton Varsho is certainly going to play some sort of a role and maybe even a pretty big role for the Diamondbacks here in 2021 coming up. Yeah, I agree. He's a guy. We're not entirely sure right now exactly how and where he fits. and there's always the chance that he would start the year, you know, back in AAA or something. I don't know that I don't know how I feel about that.

I just throw it out there as a possibility. But yeah, I think, you know, his overall line wasn't great. I think there are some signs, though, that he's, you know, he made a little more progress as the season went on than it might show. So there's no way to, no way to slice it. I mean, he's going to be an important part of the Diamond Bowl. access future, you know, one way or another. So I think there's a lot sort of writing on him and Varsha is going to continue to get his spots and get work. I'm not sure exactly where all that comes from, but, you know, he's a guy that I wouldn't be shocked to see him take a pretty

big step forward if for nothing else, just because I think some of the process stats and some of the, you know, the deeper data might have suggested that he was a little bit better last year than the the overall line would suggest. So I think a natural little bump is coming, plus whatever else he gains just from the exposure, the extra time, the extra practice, you know,

and the extra time in the spring. So very excited about him. Anyone who is like, you know, tossing in the towel and Dalton Varsha's giving up way too early. Sam Gregory asked, who are the players that realistically you want to see the debacks ad?

Looks like they're looking at a right-handed outfield bat and bullpen pieces. So, yeah, we sort of already spoke. to the right-handed outfield bat side of things. We certainly think there's some room to improve there. Sam also mentions bullpen pieces, which I guess we can jump into now.

Jeff, this bullpen was rough. It's not really any good way to sugarcoat it. This bullpen was really pretty atrocious in 2020. One of many things that went wrong for this team, of course. But it seemed like Stefan Kreiton sort of rose to the top as a closer. And there really wasn't anyone else in that bullpen that you really felt all that good about. But just sort of to pencil in the names that you figure would make the team at this point in the bullpins. Defon Crichton would certainly be there.

Taylor Clark, you know, he's certainly not going to blow anyone away, but helpful as, you know, maybe a long relief, fill-in starter type of a guy. Alex Young had some moments. I think he showed some potential as a left-handed reliever out of the bullpen. a guy who can cover a couple of innings, which certainly has some value. Yohan Lopez, which I think we all sort of know what he is at this point, which is unfortunately not a particularly effective relief pitcher. I think we were maybe a little bit fooled in 2019 when, you know, his ERA and some of the numbers look good, but you looked at his peripherals

and you looked at the hard hit numbers and he was giving up like more hard contact than any pitcher in baseball. And we sort of saw the result. of that a little bit more tangibly in 2020 when things did not go quite as well for Yohan. Kevin Ginkle, you saw Tori really stick with Kevin for the first few weeks of the season, really stuck with him in the closer role, and then eventually Ginkle was just really, really struggling in those big moments, and Tori had to move him out of that role. Curie Mella is another guy who pitched a few winnings for the team, but maybe not a whole lot there moving forward.

Jeff, safe to say that if there's any place where the Diamondbacks have a pretty substantial amount of work to do, it's probably in this bullpen. 100%. I mean, we can try to rearrange the deck chairs between Centerfield and Second Base a whole bunch, but a lot of that's not going to matter if the bullpen is rolled out in its current form. Sure. It's just, I mean, it would be on pace to be a league worst bullpen.

as you draw it up. So they certainly need help there. And we've seen Mike Hazen be sort of reticent to really invest in the bullpen, you know, heavily. It's been a lot of, a lot of sort of, you know, deals for guys that are older or guys that are, you know, have had success in the past and, you know, hit some speed bumps. And I don't know that that's necessarily going to change in a major way.

but this is a very obvious place where help is needed. And if there's one place, and we've said it before, but if there's one place that you want to shore up and you want to do it fairly inexpensive leave, the ballpents the place to do it, I think there are some ways and some configurations that they could sort of patch things together and make it a good bit better.

And I think a lot of that's due to the fact that they had guys pitching especially towards the end of 2020 in roles that really they're just not suited for in a long-term sort of way. Stefan Kreitin, bless him. That guy really delivered at times, but at the same time,

he is far from a marquee closer. That's just not quite who he is. A setup guy, you know, I could buy that, but probably not the guy you want, you know, in the ninth inning one run lead uh that sort of thing um and same with you know you start elevating guys like you know uh Alex young to roles like that uh Kevin ginkle to rolls like that that's just not quite probably where they belong yeah so yeah that it's just really a place where they're definitely going to have to invest but you know there are some options so um that certainly

helps yeah i'm just thinking back to the history you mentioned that you know Mike hasn is Certainly, this is not unfamiliar territory for Mike Hayes in trying to shore up the bullpen with inexpensive veteran type guys. We saw it a few years ago. Fernando Rodney, of course, that whole experiment. Brad Boxburger, Greg Holland. Last season, it was Junior Guerra and Hector Rondone. And unfortunately, Jeff, I think about all of those names.

And I think maybe the most successful out of all of those, shockingly, is probably Fernando Rodney. Somehow, he actually, I think is the one out of those guys who actually kept the closer role all the way through and into the playoffs, believe it or not. I mean, he was their closer when they went to the playoffs in 2017. Unbelievable to think that that was actually the case. But it really hasn't worked out very well for Mike Hayes and going back and trying to get veterans to fill in the bullpen.

And yet, that's sort of the position that he's in this year. And I don't think there's really a better approach to doing this. as long as the Diamondbacks just continue to have a serious lack of, you know, good bullpen arms coming up through their system. Or maybe the issue is more that they're just unwilling to let go of hopes that all of their pitching prospects can become starters. And so a lot of them sort of get stuck in that messy middle ground of trying to become a starter, but things just not working out so they never really find a home in the bullpen.

But this team is just really not churned out a whole lot of quality talent. at the bullpen in quite some time, and it has left Mike Hazen having to go back year after year to, you know, the risk of free agency of trying to come away with someone who you're not closing your eyes, trying to watch, you know, the end of a Diamondbacks game in the eighth or ninth inning. We've had some rough moments in late games over the last few years. But I don't know. Are there, you know, certain names that, you know, maybe you feel a little bit better about this year? Is this just sort of the position the Diamondbacks are in as a lower mid-market type team

so long as their farm system isn't churning out any flame-throwing prospects they can plug into that role? Is this just sort of where they're at right now? Yeah, I do. I mean, the bullpen is a place where it's a real luxury to be able to spend a lot of money on your bullpen. There are a few teams that can really pull that off. And I think, you know, you either get really creative, like a team like the race have. Yeah. Or you do like what the Yankees do and you just buy everybody. So it's a pretty tough spot because just the fluctuation in production varies so wildly.

So I don't know really what the long-term solution is. I mean, I have some ideas, but nothing real solid. But on the market currently, I mean, there are some guys that they are going to be able to afford. You know, one name that stands out to me that is, you know, not the most exciting, but, you know, could be functional is Alex Colome, who just got done with a year as a closer with the White Sox. He's been a closer for a couple years, I believe. He had some kind of some pretty big support from some peripherals that won't carry forward, but there were other peripherals that were really good. So if you're looking for someone with closing experience who's not super old, you know, he'll be 32 next year. That might be better than, you know, running out of what a 59-year-old Fernando. How old is he now?

He's still pitching. I think he actually is, isn't he? I do too. Yeah, I believe he's intending to pitch. And I think 20 years now, we'll still be pitching. But, yeah, I mean, that's like that's an opportunity to get a guy. who had a productive season a year ago has that closing experience isn't, you know, isn't, you know, in his late 30s or something. So that's an option. Another guy like Mark

Malanson could fill that role. There are some intriguing names or some setup names like Joachim Soraya, who is quite old, but, you know, just keeps on ticking. Shane Green is coming off really a down year, but, you know, could maybe, you know, turn a corner and has been quite productive before. So there are a lot of there are a lot of options here that should sort of fall in the you know, three to five, six million dollars on a one year deal sort of range. And I feel like, you know, for a team that's not really sure what exists beyond 2021, you know, probably makes a lot of sense for them to go with some, some older, more veteran options to sort of fill out the back end the bullpen and then start sliding some of these guys some of the the taylor clarks the kevin

ginkles uh sort of down the bullpen uh food chain if you will and kind of place them more in some some more like middle relief roles rather than relying on on them to either close games or pitch the a thing for you we got a question from uh sean ramaran hope i'm saying that right um he said what under the radar guys from the farm will you expect to be making a contribution next season. Jeff, I know they're specifically in the bullpen. You know, obviously you mentioned a few guys that the Diamondbacks might look to add in free agency. And we certainly think that's probably a good idea for them, get a little bit more of a veteran presence out there, even as much as, you know, the results haven't always been spectacular in the past. I think that would

still be a good move for them. But that isn't to say that there's no other options internally. And specifically with some guys who were sort of right on the brink of cracking the major league roster, maybe some names that aren't too familiar to some of our audience just yet. Yeah, I think there's a host of guys that the team kind of likes, and they all sort of have their war or have had injuries or poorly timed injuries. Like Jeremy Beasley is a guy who I think was injured, sort of right on the cusp of getting the call. He came over from the Angels, if I remember from Matt Andres.

Travis Bergen came over from Toronto last year at the deadline. a lefty who maybe somebody could kind of fill Andrew Chaffin's shoes a little bit, has similar sort of velocity, but has really struggled with walks. You're looking for some of these kinds of guys to take a step forward and start filling some shoes. The other sort of thought that, you know, one of the things that I've kicked around quite a bit is taking a guy like J.B. Bukowski's who people for a long time have really debated about whether he's a starting pitcher or reliever, you know, based on some of his control and command issues, and yet the stuff, you know, can be pretty electric at times.

And, you know, he gets a little older. You know, at what point does the organization just, you know, sort of give up on the starting pitching hope and just put him in the bullpen? You know, give him his two best pitches and just, you know, tell him, hey, you know, grip it, rip it, get guys out. You know, don't worry about trying to get through the lineup two or three times. Like, let's just get three guys out. I think there are some internal moves like that that could be really helpful. A little further down the line, I think a guy like Levi Kelly sort of fits that mold is someone who might excel in that role. He probably has, you know, another year of, you know, trying to be a starter left at least.

But if it doesn't work out, I think, you know, a high leverage release. leaf role is something that'll probably suit him pretty well. He's not on the 40 men yet. He's a ways off. But those kinds of guys, I think, you know, if you see sort of the mechanical flags or maybe it's a control of command issue, you know, moving them to the bullpen sooner than later might be one of the ways that Mike Hazing gets out of this perpetual bullpen churn.

You know, and maybe internally they're like fairly comfortable with that. You know, for my couch, it's not very comfortable. sometimes. But that's, you know, that's why, you know, that's why I'm here and they're there. Right. But yeah. And one other guy I will call out who's on the 40 man. I know he's not a prospect that has elicited, you know, a ton of hype. But Matt Peacock was added to the 40 man roster. And Matt Peacock is a guy that throws strikes with a heavy sinker and can get a ton of ground balls. And there were some times last year that I would have really just settled for someone who could just throw strikes and get some ground balls. I think Matt Peacock might be able to to be that guy in

2021. Yeah, a guy for me that I'll throw into the mix as well is I really enjoyed watching Riley Smith pitch toward the end of the season. Just the sinker, slider combo, just really came out aggressive and through strikes and, you know, mid-90s. He's not blowing people away. But I mean, you look back at the numbers, Riley Smith was about as good of a guy in the bullpen as the Diamondbacks had all year, albeit in a very small sample size. But I think he's another guy that you might see in the mix there. Of course, he's another one who I don't know if the team has really given up on hopes of trying to keep him in the starting rotation.

But yeah, I mean, I feel like big picture, Jeff. I mean, just thinking about how many times we've been through this with the Diamondbacks organization, it seems like there's just this sort of aversion to kind of giving in and letting guys just move to the bullpen when in reality sometimes it's like you know this team isn't really struggling to cover relatively quality innings in the rotation they're struggling to to find guys for the back end of the bullpen that you know the the process of going back to the well of free agency is just not really working out for them and at some point you kind of wonder you know what would happen if your bullpen was you know j bukovskis and riley smith and uh you know

Levi Kelly and maybe even, you know, Luis Free Us down the road, you know, guys who really have that big kind of stuff that plays up in the back end, at least a few of those guys do. And you sort of wonder, you know, maybe maybe the best route to use those guys is not to try to flounder them into the rotation, you know, year after year. And maybe just sort of, I don't want to say giving up on them, but in a way really empowering them to maybe have more success in the major leagues than they would if they just continue to try to go back and try to be starters year after year. I'm not saying that's the best move for all of those guys, but certainly it seems like a trend

with this organization where we see, we see them trying time and time again to make guys starting pitchers when that just really wasn't ever going to be. Yeah, I think maybe being, and I certainly understand the argument for not making that decision abruptly or hastily. I mean, that's not a smart move. But maybe making that decision a little more quickly at times, you know, could be prudent and could be a way to sort of get them through. I mean, let's face it, the anchors of the last, you know, several iterations of the bullpen were guys like Archie Bradley and Andrew Chafin. I mean, guys that had starting experience, Chafin moved pretty quickly to a relief role and really flew up and did his thing.

I mean, Bradley, you know, if there's some time that, you know, maybe if he had been a reliever, you know, sooner, there are some weapons that would have been better. So I think knowing when to make that call is really tricky and you have to really trust your internal process. You have to trust the player. You have to know your roster. And I think that's probably a very difficult decision. I don't take it lightly. But it also just may be in some instances a way out of this performance. perpetual churn that doesn't seem to be really working in their favor.

I guess the last part of the team to cover is just the starting rotation. Right now, things seem relatively set with Mad Bum. Of course, you hope you get better things from him in 2021. I think, I think I'm pretty confident that I think he'll turn things around, at least to some point. He's not going to be vintage Madison Bumgarner, but I think it'll be a viable number, number one starter for the Diamondbacks, maybe more of a number three for other teams, but number four.

But I think he'll be at least a viable starting pitcher in 2021, which is really more than we could say for him this past year. Zach Gallen, of course, probably the true ace of the staff. I don't know if he's going to get the ball in opening day, but certainly deserving of that role at this point. And then at the back end, things get a little dicey here. You've got Luke Weaver, who had some really good things happen in 2019, not so much this last year.

Caleb Smith, of course, acquired in the Starling Marte trade coming over from the Marlins. You would expect him to be in the rotation. Merrill Kelly coming off of thoracic outlet surgery, which will be interesting to see how he recovers from that. There have certainly been pitchers who have tried to come back from that, to my knowledge, and have really struggled to sort of find their way back. But the Diamondbacks felt confident enough to tender him a contract and bring him back. So he is back with the team as well. Figures to be in the mix for the starting rotation if he's healthy.

Beyond that, Jeff, Corbyn Martin, a guy who we were hoping to get a look at this last year, had some injury issues that sort of elongated his return from Tommy John surgery. We didn't get to see him this last year, but he definitely figures to be a factor in 2021 at some point. Taylor Widener, of course, still in the mix. I don't think they've closed the door on him being in the rotation. John Duplanteer, if we ever really get to see him pitch, if he's ever not hurt. You know, you certainly figure there might be an opportunity there for him as well. It's not a place where I see an emergency sort of need to add another majorly caliber starter.

But maybe some depth would be in order, Jeff. What do you think? Yeah, I think so. Not knowing what you'll get out of John de Planteer, you know, definitely hurts. I mean, I still maintain we haven't seen the best of him, but at the same time, do we ever get to see that? You know, we're starting to really wonder. And Corbyn Martin, that's going to be a really fun, you know, a really fun player to watch this season. He's going to get an opportunity. And that's a guy that, you know, thinking back to this at Granke trade, I mean, this is probably, you know, arguably the player. that the recollection of that deal hinges upon,

sort of our evaluation, that deal hinges upon him. But he is coming back from elbow surgery, and so, you know, he's going to be on an innings count. So he, you know, in the event that a guy like Merrill Kelly just isn't ready to go or suppers a setback, you know, he could fill those shoes, but he's not going to make 30 starts next season. And so, yeah, you kind of look at what's on the, 40-man roster, it seems like, you know, some probably inexpensive depth would be in order.

These are the kinds of guys that, you know, get signed every year by the team, guys that tend to get signed on minor league deals with an invitation to spring training. That seems like the type of player that they're most likely to probably roll the dice on and just try to add some depth in that regard. Maybe, you know, the types of guys like it, maybe an Anthony Descliffeani, if you if he kind of hangs around and no one really picks him up to really drop him in the rotation. Guys of sort of, you know, more veteran players who are just kind of, you know, hanging on. This is, you know, arguably sort of a role like you'd expect, maybe a Mike Leak type player,

but less expensive to sort of fill a guy that can, you know, on command to come out and, you know, yeah, his ERA is going to be five, but he's also going to throw a bunch of innings, you know, as a safety blanket. I wouldn't be surprised to see them go that direction and add a guy or two in that way just so they have the extra help if and when, you know, trouble strikes. I mean, Madison Bumgarner, you know, he doesn't miss a start all year. I'd probably be somewhat surprised. You know, Luke Weaver certainly had his troubles. You know, Caleb Smith is coming back from his own injury issues and same with Merrill Kelly.

So I think they have some younger, sort of more exciting internal options, you know, already on the 40 man, but adding another guy or two for safety is probably something we should bet on. Yeah, here's the move toward the close of this episode. We appreciate you sticking with us. This has been fun. We got another sort of out of the blue question from Ethan on Twitter. I know some people on Twitter might have thought that he was crazy for saying this. but me and Jeff certainly don't. Even said, why not trade Zach Allen and other major league assets to continue to reset the farm system?

Gotta think nothing will happen over the next two to three years anyways. You're not competing with the Dodgers or Padres over that time frame. Why not continue to build that core group for 2023 to 2025? And Jeff, I want to go a little bit more toward those more big picture questions. I know I build this podcast is, you know, a question we're going to try to answer is, you know, when's the next time that we're just going to be really, really excited to watch Diamondbacks Baseball? I mean, me and Jeff, of course, live and breathe this sport, right? So we're always excited to watch the team, even if they're going to win, you know, 70 games or something. But

when's the next time when, you know, there's been all sorts of hype around Arizona sports? I know about Chris Paul coming to the Sons and Kyler Murray and the Cardinals. And, you know, you sort of get this sort of dynasty type feeling where a team could be really good for a long. time. And here in Arizona, it's just been with, we've been without that for a very, very long time. Fans have not felt that sense of stability, I think, really, almost ever in this franchise's history, since maybe the very, very early days when, when things obviously went very well for them over their first few years in the league. But just thinking more big picture, Jeff, it's not the craziest thing in the world to suggest the Diamondback should recognize that the Dodgers and

the Padres are both pretty dang loaded, as we discussed. covered this last year. It was only a 60 game season, but we knew the Dodgers were going to blow the diamondbacks out of the water, frankly. And we knew the Padres had some pieces. And now that we've sort of gotten to see them in person, I think we're all probably convinced to some extent, the Padres are probably the team to take if you're choosing between them

and the Diamondbacks in 2021, if we're just being totally honest with ourselves, should the Diamondbacks just cut bait, recognize that Zach Allen would fetch quite a lot, on the trade market if you were to throw a guy like that out there, right? And should you just continue and try to build more toward the future, maybe in that 2023 to 2025 range, as Ethan says, where maybe the Diamondbacks really could have more of an elongated contention window open up with Corbin Carroll and Alec Thomas and Christian Robinson and Levi Kelly, all these, you know,

younger names that we're always talking about all the time when those guys are actually here and maybe ready to make more of a difference? yeah i definitely understand understand sort of the sentiment i think back like a decade and this really would have seemed like a crazy question but we've now seen several franchises like successfully tank and so this doesn't feel actually that weird

you know i don't think the diamondbacks want to go down that road and i think one of the reasons why is that But they do know, I mean, the question alludes to, you know, they're being sort of hope on the horizon, they're being sort of a wave of prospects coming. And the thing is, Zach Gallen is young enough and certainly good enough, but also young enough and under control long enough that he's still going to be here when that, you know, when that wave arrives. And so I think that's probably the biggest reason.

I think if Zach Gallen was through four years of Major League service time, and entering his fifth, I think he could probably make that case that maybe he's a guy you just let go, try to spin him off and do a couple guys that are a little younger, and maybe it syncs up at the timeline, and maybe it works out that way. But he's young enough now that, I mean, he's not a free agent until 2026, I don't think. And so, you know, if you think that the Diamondbacks might start hitting another stride in 23, 24, 25, you're going to want a of front of the rotation arm to lead that charge. And I think the diamondbacks might already have that guy in Zach Gallen.

So that's the reason why not. I can understand why, you know, I can understand the sentiment. But I think at the rate of prospect failure, you know, injuries and all those things included, if you have a guy like Zach Gallen in your grasp, you're probably going to do everything in your power to hold on to him because frankly you could trade Zach Gallen and the odds are that you are not going to get another player back as good as that gallon, you know, even during that window. So I don't think it's a crazy question.

I just don't think it's the right move for the organization. Yeah, I think maybe ask us again in about a year or two. Maybe if this thing doesn't work out and it. It may well not. And maybe two years from now, we're looking back at this question being like, you know what? Yeah, that actually is the move they should have made. You know, why did they just lose 65, you know, win 65 games for two years and, you know, basically waste two really good years of Zach Gallen.

But yeah, I think at this point, especially following a 60 game season, we're not going to throw it out. But also, it's crazy to think this, Jeff, but about a year ago right now, people are looking to the Diamond Vax is sort of this model. franchise as the team that somehow managed to sort of retool without actually selling off all of their pieces, right? Mike Hayeson sort of strategically made move after move to sort of keep the future intact, you know, still running one of the better farm systems out there across baseball, while also bringing in a guy like Starling Marte and bringing in a guy like Madison Bumgarner and finagling his contract to take, you know, six million.

for two years in order for, you know, Yasmani Tomas's contract to finally come off the books and whatnot. So we are not very far removed from this organization really being praised quite highly for what they've done. And although it doesn't look like, you know, things are quite going to work out the way some people might have expected, baseball is a funny sport, man, where, you know, you think one thing about your team at one moment and, you know, you're a month into the season and you're 20 and 10 and you just had, you know, 10 things flipped the right direction that you weren't expecting. And those sorts of things happen.

And especially with the kinds of guys on this roster, as much as, you know, the Carson Kelly's and Eduardo Escobar's and really all up and down the roster, right, guys just didn't give you what you hoped for. But it's certainly not out of the question that, you know, Carson Kelly bounces back and Eduardo Escobar bounces back. You know, you're not looking at the 20, 19 Baltimore Orioles and hoping they're going to win 90 games all of a sudden, right? There's more talent on this roster than, you know, some franchise has just been stuck

in a rut for several seasons. So I think there's enough here to convince myself that it's worth betting on this team, not to the point of, you know, making another Starling Marte-esque type acquisition where you're really, you know, throwing some major prospect capital out there. but still to the point of, you know, trying to put Cotel Marte in center and bring in a second basement, try to use your assets and move players around to make you as good as you can possibly be. And, you know, just put that roster out there, make it as good as you can and see what happens. And it's not out of the question in this game of baseball that things are going to, you know, turn your way in some instances.

And we certainly hope that'll be the case this year. Yeah, I mean, we've certainly seen weirder things happen, right? And so, yeah, I think I think you know that on any given day, you know, you have a chance in baseball. And I think that's one of the things that makes baseball unique. I think it's one of the things we love about it. And so, yeah, I think I think you're right on. I'd much rather see them give this group another try. And I might feel differently if Zach Allen was maybe surrounded by other assets that could also be flipped and dumped.

for a bigger haul and a bigger return. But right now, I mean, that doesn't really exist outside of, you know, might as well just make this question, why don't they trade Cattel Marte? You know, and no one's going to advocate for that. So you're not going to get much for a year left of Cole Calhoun. You're not going to get much for what's left of Nick Ahmed or David Perra. No one wants Madison Bobarner's contract at this point in time. So really, you're kind of stuck with what's all around.

you know, you subtracts that gallon from that, you sure don't have a whole lot left. Yeah, that's a great point. All right. Last question here as we close out this episode. Matt Steele asked us is Mike Hazen's draft strategy to conservative. This is sort of taking things a different direction, but a very interesting question. Matt notes that a lot of the picks that Mike Hazen has made are intriguing, talking about guys like Alec Thomas and Corbyn Carroll and Bryce Jarvis,

but he mentions they are also limited physically. Is this just a matter of the reality we can't miss on taking a shot on a high-risk reward-type player because of the nature of being a mid-market team with limited resources? So this is a great question, right? If you look at sort of some of these top prospect type guys the Diamondbacks have, they're not, you know, your prototypical baseball bodies, right? They're not, you know, the 6-4, 230 pounds starting pitcher or, you know, the first baseman who's six-foot-four, right?

This team for the last several years has really had this trend of taking, you know, pretty small, pretty small players, relatively speaking, in the earlier rounds of the draft. Jeff, you know more about this type of stuff than I knew from a prospect standpoint and whatnot. Do you see this as, I mean, first of all, is this a genuine trend? And do you think this is a problem or just sort of a unique? way of going about things in Arizona. I think in some regard, it's, you know, the baseball drafts is a really unique, a really unique process. I do think that there are some ways in which these things have just sort of worked out this way. I know that, you know, we could look at, let's take Corby and Carroll,

for instance, not the biggest guy in the world, you know, plays his butt off, has a ton of athleticism. But Matt makes a good point. I mean, he's not ever going to become what Christian Robinson has the ability to become in terms of, you know, physical, just raw physical output. You know, that said, it doesn't mean Corby and Carroll can't be a really good baseball player. And I think he was drafted 16th overall. I mean, I think if you went back in that draft right now, I don't think Corby and Carol probably makes it out of the top 10. So we could look at it one way and say, well, you know, he's maybe not the physical specimen. But in another sense, we could look at it and say, you know, the diamond backs, you know, got a, you know, potentially a steel at 16 with Corbyn Carroll.

So there's kind of two ways to slice that. And I think Alec Thomas is another one where, you know, not a super, you know, a physically imposing guy. But, you know, I think he was either a comp round pick or a second round pick. And so, you know, I just think that once you get out of. you know, once you get out of some of those, especially those super high draft picks, you just stop, you kind of lose the ability to find guys who are both freakishly sculpted and have, you know, really that outstanding raw ability, but also have enough polish that you feel pretty confident that they can make it.

Yeah. And so I think they've tried to kind of thread the needle as best, as they can and get both of those things. I think Alec Thomas and Corbyn Carroll both have some really tremendous physical attributes. Size just isn't one of them. And I think we've seen over time, we've kind of seen, you know, the smaller baseball player come back and have like a pretty prominent role in baseball. So I do think in some ways it's how it's worked out.

We could look at, I think Bryce Jarvis was maybe mentioned or alluded to. And, you know, he's not the biggest guy. I think he's listed at 6-2. I'm not sure if that's generous. But sort of, you know, 6-3-6-4 is sort of the sweet spot for starting pitchers and is, you know, an inch or, you know, an inch and a quarter really make or break. We'll see. So I certainly understand where Matt's coming from.

I think the one last thing I'll throw in there is that the Diamondbacks have been, you know, for better or worse, good enough that they're not generally picking at the very top of the draft. Yeah. And so they're not getting that crack at the super-tooled-up, super-obvious, just physical specimen who's also polished. Like, they're not getting a chance to make that draft pick to begin with. They're often picking kind of in the middle to the end of the first round. And so the guys that maybe combine that just freakish raw athleticism with enough polish that you feel good about it, those guys are off the board by the time the diamondbacks picks.

So, yeah, I'd probably call it more circumstantial than really a pure strategy, but I do think there is something to the diamondbacks feeling good about guys that are, you know, have that maybe that higher floor, that higher baseball IQ, rather than maybe the more raw pure athlete that you're sort of hoping will you can sculpt and build into a baseball player. That's not to say they're playing it particularly safe, but I do think they are, you know, valuing, wanting to make sure they're going to get some production than making the real wild pick.

Yeah, I wonder if part of this has to do with the fact that, I mean, you look at their own roster and some of the guys on this on the team itself that have been good could tell martay in 2019 broke out and hit over 30 home runs slugged almost 600 and tell marty is not a particularly imposing physical specimen right he's not he's not the type of guy that you're talking about right he's not mark trumbo or you know some just like enormous person um who's like super athletic right he's more on the sort of toolsy athletic side of things. And the diamondbacks have seen with their own eyes, right, what a player like that can do. And, you know, obviously this was more of a down year for Cotel in 2020, but we certainly hope

and I would say even expect that he'll, you know, return to form in 2021, at least on some level. And you look across the rest of the league and it's not like this is the only, you know, he's the only guy who has done this, right? Mookie Betts just signed a contract for almost $400 million over $13. years and he has a very similar build to a guy like Catelle Marte. And there are other guys too, right? Like Jose Ramirez, for example, a really good season, right? This is sort of a common thing around the game of baseball where you're not seeing as many

of those physical specimen types. There's certainly still out there, but I would go as far to say that, you know, your prototypical superstar, you know, looks a little more like Catelle Marte and Francisco Lindor and, you know, that type of frame. than it does, you know, your prototypical sort of, you know, very well-built type of player, like, you know, maybe even like Trout. Of course, there are certainly still guys like that out there. But the Diamondbacks have seen, you know, with their own eyes that, you know, it's not necessarily required to have that kind of a frame in order to be good in this league.

Absolutely. I mean, there are only so many Aaron judges. And frankly, you know, he's an outlier in the same way that, you know, Jose Alvin. too they is. I mean, there aren't a lot of guys that are six, six, six, seven, six, eight that can swing a baseball bat as gracefully and as controlled and still with as much power as Aaron Judge. I mean, it's easy to kind of, and I think we've seen sort of, you know, we've seen a wave of younger players come up and 2020 was notable in the way that a lot of good young players may debuts.

But we think about how big a guy like Elohimenez is, you know, I mean, that's a large, large man. But, you know, Christian Robinson is, is nearly that big. And or will be by the time, you know, he's ready to take a major league field. So by the time he can actually like drink alcohol. Yeah, right. I mean, he's, we forget how young he is. I mean, he just turned 20, I believe, like three days ago. So, yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of that. But yeah, I think, I think guys of the size that they've drafted are going to be just fine. And I know that, you know, the Alec Thomas, the Corby Carrolls get a lot of press. I think AJ Bukovic, who was an overslaught sign, is a guy they really, really like from the 2020 draft, a high schooler.

And I think he's a pretty good-sized kid. So there's maybe a little more of a mix than maybe meets the eye if we're just kind of looking at the prospect list. So I think it's out there. I'm not sure how much of it is an organizational philosophy. That said, we'll see another draft here in 2021. It's something to keep an eye on. Well, hey, we've gone way longer than I think we were expecting to. But this has been a lot of fun, just sort of jumping back into things here.

I guess is what happens when you don't get to do a show for as long as we have. But we certainly appreciate all of you out there listening and sticking with us. for this long. We certainly were excited to see all of the questions and everything coming in and we announced you were going to do a show again. It's fun to have all of you here with us. But that is a wrap here for episode 24 of the Rattle Podcast. As always, keep it locked to our website, www.therattle.net.

We mentioned the piece that Joshua just did about Eduardo Escobar and how he might be able to turn things around. Jeff has thrown at me some little rumors that maybe he'll have a piece up at some point in the relatively near future. So be looking for that as well. For Jeff Weiser, my co-hosts here on The Rattle, my name is Jesse Friedman. It's good to be back with you all here,

ladies and gentlemen, and we'll be back here once again soon to talk about the soon-to-be-2020-1 Arizona Diamondbacks.