PHNX Arizona Diamondbacks Podcast - Worst Roster Move in Arizona Sports History

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

Makayla Perkins is joined by an All-Star panel of PHNX beat reporters to discuss a variety of sports topics in the Valley of the Sun!With Greg Esposito, Saul Bookman and Derek Montilla the squad highlights the worst roster moves in Arizona sports history! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome into the Phoenix Sports podcast presented by Draking Sportsbook America's top-rated sportsbook app. I'm your host, Michaela Perkins, and joining me today is Derek Montia, Saul Bookman, and the legendary Espo. I didn't go with your full name today. I hope that's okay. Why the fuck Zeeland? Nobody knows what. Only one of us can be legendary today. It's Espo.

Also, where's the voice? I want to hear the voice. I want to hear the voice. Hello. I want to hear that now. It was Australia. I was doing Australian accent like five minutes ago. But it sounded like Julia Child.

Okay, hold on, ready? Basting a turkey. It's... No, Cleo! Go on the sight of it. It sounds more like... So bad. Got get some shrimp on the bobby.

You should... If you like ever go on a date with a guy and you really don't like them, just start using that... Just do that voice the whole time. Go the bathroom and then come back and just start doing that the whole time. I can do that. I put the lotion in the basket. Well, happy hump day, everybody. How's your Wednesday going?

I have to be honest. Mine's not going well. I'm really disappointed. Do you guys want to know why? Murder? Yeah, it has to do with murder. Okay, so today they figured out who the Zodiac Killer is,

but the Zodiac Killer apparently died three years ago and I'm really upset about it because I love murder. And I want to know why he murdered people and we'll never get to know. The producer's going like this. Don't say R&P. Can I not say I love murder on air?

Is that bad? Yes, you can. We'll be taking that clip and replaying it multiple times for the remaining. of your time here at B.H. If any of us go missing, we know all afternoon or all morning. It's been how much she loves murder.

That's just what she's been saying. Okay, but we're never going to know why he killed all those people. Isn't that upsetting? No, because he's crazy. That's a good enough reason for us. If you do go crazy, though, Mac attack is a pretty cool serial killer phrase, right?

That's my serial name. Yes, if I start murdering people, call me Mac attack. Okay. She's going to start murdering people just so people could call her Mac attack. Stop encouraging this nonsense. All right.

Well, we've got a pretty fun topic for you guys today on the Phoenix Sports podcast. But before we get into that, let's do our Valley Sports temperature check. And I think we have to start with the Cardinals. I mean, the Cardinals are the only undefeated team in the NFL right now. Be honest, Saul. Did you expect the Cardinals to be undefeated heading into Week 5? No, not even close. I definitely did not.

I had them losing week one. So I've been pleasantly surprised. I think I was more surprised. at their performance this past Sunday because I feel like that gave them a sense of legitimacy after the fluke field goal against the Vikings, the struggling against the Jaguars, being down at half by a 109-yard kickoff field goal return. And this last week was like, oh, this is what this team could be all about. And I think that's exactly what has got this whole city and the state energized for Cardinals football.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, and then now going into week five against the 49ers, their favorite to win against the 49ers too. do you think that they can go 5-0? I mean, I'd be shocked if they didn't. The 49ers, they have a strong running game, but they have questions at quarterback as they have the last couple of years. Jimmy Garapolo, don't know if he's going to play or not.

And then Trey Lance might be getting his first start or he might not. You know, there's a whole bunch of head games going on over there. But I would expect the Cardinals to come out and take care of businesses, especially at home. It's been a while. They played the Vikings like three weeks ago at home. And this is only their second home game of the season. in week five, so I'm sure they're going to be energized for that.

If it's Lance starting a quarterback, they're going to put the tray in. Trey Lance. He's going to meet a lot of field goals for the 49ers at best if they score. Well, I was going to ask Saul, who are you more worried about them starting Gropolo or Trey Lans? I don't think either. Both of them are getting done in, so it doesn't matter. I like that confidence. See, that's the confidence of an undefeated team.

We love that. Do you feel like Cardinals fans feel the same confidence? Do you think that this has energized this entire family? Yeah. I think so because the one major thing right now is that you're seeing it from Kyler Murray. Yeah. Kyler Murray is taking his game to another level like we all hoped he would last year. And that is the major difference is that you know that the offensive side of the ball is in good hands.

And we haven't necessarily felt like that, especially with Cliff Kingsbury and Kyler, you know, in their struggles the last couple of seasons. And I think they've gotten over that. I think Cliff has gotten over that. And I just think that they're on a role right now. and Kyler's, Kyler said that he is seeing the field as good as he ever has in his entire life. Yeah. And he's showing that on the field.

And I think Kyler Murray is like the key piece here because even today in media availability, he was saying we're winning and winning is what I'm used to. Obviously he had a successful collegiate career. And so, you know, the first couple NFL seasons didn't get off to the best start for Kyler. So now that he's back to the winning ways, I think that just injects the confidence that he needs to have in order for the entire team to be successful. He lost like four games combined in high school and college.

Yeah. Like together. And he won like three straight state championships. He almost won a national championship at Oklahoma if it were for, you know, Alabama. And then he gets to the Cardinals and he loses his ass. Like it's just crazy. He's gotten over that. He's understood what it takes to get to another level and he's produced on the field.

I think you got to give Chase Edmonds and James Connor credit too for leaving some of the pressure on Kyler by having a strong running game this year. I would combat that by saying it. It's more on Rodney Hudson than it is those two running backs because Rodney Hunson at the center position has made a world of difference for that entire offensive line. And without him in the fold, as we saw the previous two seasons, that running game was very sporadic. Had moments, but it wasn't as good as it is this year.

And it's like you said on the postgame show about personnel. It's really all about personnel and who they put around Kyler. Kyler is a winning quarterback. He is a talented, gifted athlete. The difference is the personnel. It even comes down to the kicker. that you can't say enough about. Their ability to put up points consistently,

even when drives end, especially when they're 40, 50 yards out, and they can still kick a field goal and know consistently that they're going to make it and get those three points, I think just changes the confidence level of the play calling and everything about this team. Yeah, they trust their roster.

Yeah, exactly. Well, obviously, the Cardinals being undefeated is super exciting. What's not exciting, however, is the Diamondbacks. Oh, come. Whoa. Sorry, dear. And probably what I'm not.

I would consider the most D-BACs fashion possible. They blew their chances of getting the first overall pick in this coming draft by a walk-off homer in the very last game of the season. Derek, why? I don't know why. I wish someone would tell me why. I mean, I get it. This team has actually been winning in the second half just enough to put them in this position. And I knew it was going to happen.

I knew they were going to inevitably play themselves out of the first pick. It just came down to such a close. decision. They actually tied with the Baltimore Orioles. The rule would be that they go to last year's record. But surprisingly enough, the Orioles and the D-backs tied last year. They have the same record last year. So the decision goes to the 2019 season, which, by the way, I don't think is right. I think they should play, I think they should play a one-game playoff game and the team that loses gets the number one pick. That for an anchorman style rumble. There you go. I'm always in favor of that. You know me. What about a home run debut to decide the way? I love that.

Again, I thought the Rockies and D-backs were just going to have a foot race for, you know, the final three games. So I was surprised to see them actually play baseball. How do you not go into that final inning and just bat three pitchers? I will say, again, LeVolo, when asked about the final game not starting Cotel Marte, LeVolo said he was sitting him for rest, which was the most hilarious answer I've ever heard from this team yet this season. I felt like they weren't trying to put their best lineup out there. It just goes to show that the young guys don't stop trying. they're out there for an opportunity and they want to shine no matter what, right?

Especially someone like Josh Van Meter who is still looking for a consistent place on this team and has improved. But again, wrong time. Wrong time, pal. I needed them to lose this game. It does remind me of the Cardinals the year before they drafted Larry Fitzgerald. They go into the last game of the season. If they lose to the Vikings, they get the number one pick overall. This is the Eli Manning draft, Philip River.

So there's quarterback sitting there. Ben Rothosburgh. They need a quarterback, and they go in and Josh McCown throws a miracle Hail Mary to beat the Vikings and drop them from one to three in the draft. Oh, Arizona. But it worked out all right for the Cardinal. So there is hope for Diamondbacks fans. Yeah, there is. And I think that's the thing about the MLB draft.

You never know who the team is going to take in first place. We're a big fan of Elijah Green, but there's a chance that he could maybe drop to second in the draft, depending on the Orioles needs. You were saying that. That was my other fear was that the Diamondbacks were going to get the first overall pick and not take Elijah Green. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because that's a very Diamondbacks thing. You were saying that there's another highly rated prospect.

He's a shortstop. Help me with his name. I forget right now at the top of my head. I think it's a excuse me, but it's basically the Orioles needs right now. That was my point. The Orioles need a shortstop. So technically all hope is not lost for the Elijah Green. It comes down to the MLB draft is so fickle.

You never know what's going to happen even between now and when it happens. There's a collective bargaining agreement in between now and then. It ends right now the current labor agreement ends on December 1st. So that could actually impact the draft. They do want to do a competitive balance, change to competitive balance in baseball because more than half of the league has been out of the playoff hunt since May. So it's just incredibly boring to watch a lot of these teams. that aren't in the race. The Diamondbacks were out by month too.

Correct. You know what I mean? I understand this is like an abnormal season. But when you have, when you go into a year and understand like the haves have all the advantages and have all the salary to be able to pay whoever, however much they want, and the have-nots have to struggle for years and years to try and find the perfect chemistry of player and, you know, minimum veteran to give yourself a chance just to make the playoffs. it's just a struggle to invigorate any of the fan bases into coming to the games.

Like the stadium was completely empty this year, like empty because there's nothing to play for. Well, and I'll tell you, an interesting flip side to that is I've kind of been in awe with the Rockies having the record that they have of their stadium being so full, a division rival, right? And their stadiums like full almost every night. It's because they're good at home. They're good at home. But the other thing about it is their fans, their diehard fans, are mad about that because they feel. like the fact that the stadium is full doesn't send the right message to ownership about the team. It sends the message that will still come watch games regardless of how good or bad this

team is. And that's such a weird take to me. For me, it's depressing to watch Diamondbacks games as a fan, as someone that covers the team and see on a given night 6,000 people in a stadium that seats 40,000, right? So that, I mean, that's part of it. That ballpark's way too cavernous. And they've talked about that themselves. But wouldn't you rather spend a night out in Denver outside and in the Rocky Mountain Air in the summer than go sit in a giant metal barn. Sure. That's the difference there too.

The airport hangar over there on Jefferson. Also, like, you know, I know the downtown district is trying to do their damnedest to make it like a hip place to go and hang out. But being in Denver, being right by all those bars and breweries right by the 16th Street mall, like it's just a different, different hangout. And so that's why people are always going to gravitate to that area to not only take in a ball game, but after the ball game's over, you can go across street to the nightclub or

the bar, like there's so much going on. Whereas here, it's not like that. It's almost, it's almost a, you know, just a barren landscape on game night sometimes because nobody wants to be in downtown Phoenix. And that's why I don't think they will be in downtown Phoenix for the long run. I think dimebacks will find a way to find a new home where there is more of an entertainment district and dining and all that kind of stuff that they can do. I mean, the coyotes are looking in Tempe.

If there's a, if there's a place to do it, Scott, Salt River Fields already kind of has that ability and capability. It is right by an entertainment district that's booming and expanding almost every, you know, a couple of months. There's something new out there. You have medieval times. You have, you know, the, uh, White Castle. White Castle.

White Castle. Who doesn't want to go to hand in medieval times? Hey, that was a center point. Tell me, tell me that a night out to medieval times and watching baseball doesn't sound like good night out. What are you going to do after the game? Going to medieval times. We're sitting in the green night section. What up? To be fair? Derek just hit the baseball demo right on right on the nose. Yeah, yeah. I may not go hang out of medieval times, but the baseball crowd will go hang out of baseball. You want to go to a club at top of talking stick,

or you want to go to, you know, golf or whatever. No, we're going to medieval times. I'm eating with my hands tonight. I want to see some great job. Let's go. Of course, the guy without sleeve says that. I mean, a cat and cave man on Twitter. But also the no sleep is justified. That's probably my favorite jersey. I've seen walk through the doors. Shout out to the Mercury.

Who are playing in a playoff game tonight. I will be present for it. So I'm excited. Let's do it. Let's get to the finals ladies. So the entire reason that we were gathered here today, full transparency, was because of a tweet. A specific tweet from Woj,

Wouge bombed us yesterday with a report that the Phoenix Suns are reluctant to offer the maximum rookie contract. extension to D'Andre Aiton. How are you feeling about that, Espo? It's posturing. This is agent-speak. This was leaked. I'm 99% sure this came from Aiton's camp because negotiations haven't proceeded in

the way that they've wanted. And it's putting pressure in their mind on the Sun's organization to try to get a move. to be made, a contract to happen here. And if you look and you look at Sun's Twitter, you look around at the internet, it's a calculated risk, but it seems to be the one that makes a lot of sense because now the dialogue instead of, hey, I wonder if it's going to happen is if the Suns don't do this. And whether that actually changes a basketball franchise's position as to if they're going to go to a full max for a game.

guy or not, I don't know, but it definitely shows that the public opinion is on Aiton's side in this. And to me, this isn't really about in the end, will they pay him the max money or not? One way or another, DeAndre Aten will have a max contract at the end of this, whether it's this year by the October 18th deadline or if it's next year when he goes into restrictive free agency, And either the son sign him outright or somebody else offers him a max and they match it through a, through a restricted, through a offer, matching the offer sheet. So one way or another, DeAndre Aten's going to get paid that. But it comes down to likely the language in the contract. How does he get those kickers to reach that 207 million that, that he wants, which is a 30% escalator is what they call it?

And supposedly those are negotiable. They're not standard. So what MPJ in Denver got for those escalators isn't what Luca Donchich got for those escalators in Dallas. So there's likely some negotiating on that position. And the thing that worries me is, is this a case of the son's posturing and trying to outsmart the room in a negotiation? or are they, as that tweet says and as the article that Woods wrote, really unwilling to pay that money? My guess is they're not unwilling to pay that money.

It's how that money comes about. That's the sticking point right now. I understand Long John Silverwright here saying, we have to make sure his playoff play continues. Well, I will say this. If you think you're going to replace DeAndre Aden with another center in the league, that's not a top five center, you're out of your mind because he's a top five center, especially defensively.

And offensively, he's looking to add to his bag. And all this stuff about Cat, oh, this is trade for Cat. Cat is garbage on the defensive side of the ball. And that's what this team, that's how this team got as far as it did, is because DeAndre Aiton was the anchor of the defense. And he let everybody else thrive on the offensive side. That's why he's come into training camp talking about, I'm going to do more because clearly I'm not respected enough

to get the bag right off the bat because I sacrificed for the team. So F that, I'm going to do what I need to do. to get my bag. And rookie, extensions are not full maxes. We're not talking, he's not all of a sudden going to get the max money that LeBron's getting. There's tears to all this.

And you've got a television contract coming up due for the NBA, which means the salary cap's going to increase. So again, this money looks even less in that light. So at some point, you just have to shut up and offer the money or say you're done

and blow up the chemistry that you built. and move on. But they're not going to do that. They're going to eventually sign him. So why strain a relationship potentially is what bothers me? The market dictated. The Suns had a chance to rectify this way earlier. And they didn't.

They waited and waited and waited. And what happened was, is other teams got into the fold by like the Nuggets, by signing MPJ and OKC by signing Shayigil, Alexander. Like when those things happened, the money moved and it changed in a big way and it created the scenario that DA is in fact

a max player. If you didn't want that, you should have taken care of business. This is a theme right now with the sons, right? And I'm not trying to bag on them, but that's two players now that they probably could have gotten for cheaper, but they didn't take care of business earlier and now they're going to have to pay more. With Mikhail Bridges, they probably could have got him a little bit cheaper. But then other players that were equitable to to Mikhail got bigger deals.

So now you're probably going to have to pay him four years, 90 to 100 mil. Right. Like you, it wasn't even in that ballpark before. Now it is because you waited. You got to take care of business. You got to pay the dudes what they are worth. And if you wait too long,

the market is going to dictate it for you. And that's exactly what's happened. Well, and then my thought process is if he does keep up that same play that he reached during the playoffs, isn't that going to end up costing them more at the end of the year as far as... Well, in the end, the max is a max is a max.

But the thing is, why strain the relation? In these deals with the rookie accent you're paying on potential anyways. Because most of these guys aren't proven. Luke is probably the closest to fully proven, and there's still question marks in his game in some people's mind.

Sure. So when you're looking at it, you're paying on what you're projecting DeAndre Aitin to be. And if, and that's what Denver did with MPJ, That's what Oklahoma City did with Shea Gildress Alexander. And the sons just need to pony up. It's wild to me to think, like, waiting to see what he does in the regular season.

Isn't the playoffs where you want to see the best out of a player? And he did step up and evolve and become like a different guy last year? I guess I just don't. I generally don't understand how it's gotten to this point. I don't think there has been anything on DeAndre Ains part that would dictate that this is the appropriate response. Like, I just don't. It's the inconsistency. It's the inconsistency in the regular season.

the desire to want to see him break somebody's arm in the rim. It's the passion. It's all these intangibles that people don't think he had or didn't think he had until they saw it in the playoffs. And then they're like, oh, it's been here the entire time. And with the sons. And this is honestly like this is a, it's a solid take, but it's the wrong take in my opinion. They are hesitant because they're like, well, is this really what we're going to get? or is this just because Chris Paul did what he did to make DeAndre Aden as good as he is.

Does it matter? That's what I was going to say. You got Chris Paul for the next three years and then you're probably going to try and do something to rectify that Chris Paul situation when he does leave. Like you've got to pay DeAndre Aden because you think that you're going to be able to develop him the way he is. And he has grown every single year. He's gotten better, especially defensively, every single year.

He's deferred to everybody else on the offensive side. I don't think that's going to happen this year. I look for him to average 20 and 10 this year easily because that's what everybody wants. And apparently that's the only way he can get respect and earn his money. Well, and I guess I'm just looking at this from like a simplistic point of view,

but in my point of view, this is like a pro con list. And I think the pros far outweigh the cons. Like if the reason you're delaying this is because of the inconsistency, but it goes back to Saul's point of him being a top five center in the league and you're not going to be able to find anybody to replace him,

why wouldn't you just give him the money? I think there's hesitancy for what. Saul said in terms of, you know, the potential inconsistency. And I also think the fact that he got suspended for 25 games plays a part in this. Okay. Because that's probably creating hesitancy in and of itself. That's a good factor. I'm not sure it should, though. I mean, it's a, I mean, it's not as if, I don't know, if we believe what he said and that it was a mistake or whatever, the kids got to learn from it. If you don't believe that the guy hasn't learned from that,

then why is it? That feels like five years ago, like almost. It really does. That's what comes up in negotiations? But I get that. But also, what am I more concerned about? A guy that took a substance that he knew he should have taken or maybe accidentally took or a guy that can never stay healthy and is barely ever

on the court. And when he is on the court, he's good. But when he's not on the court, you know, like, so like MPJ getting the money that he got changes everything. It really does. That guy has been injured almost his entire career. He finally has a year when he plays the majority of the games and he's good, but defensively

he's a black hole and he's still got the max. Like, okay, now DA gets the max. That's how it is. I get that, but the sons are probably aren't thinking of it that way. They're probably looking at it as MPJ's his own thing. Denver's their own team. Yeah, but DA's looking

at it like, well, if Denver's going to give him the max and the sons won't, I will find the max somewhere else. And there is your problem right there, because I think they both wind up in the same spot in the end, but they're approaching it in odd ways. And if I'm the Sons, you're also negotiating against your own past. And your own perception of your franchise, this does not help you, especially because it went public. Because now it's, well, maybe the Sons didn't change.

Maybe that's a narrative that becomes a problem with other players. in the future. What if they sign McHale to his extension? They don't sign DA to his extension this year. What kind of, what does that put on it? I mean, Saul and I went in 40 minutes deep on this earlier today on the PH&X Sun

show. So if you want to go real deep and hear both of us lay out why we think this is happening, go check that out. You could have said that for the beginning. We wouldn't even have to say here. I would have to say. I would have to. I didn't want to leave Michaela hanging on her show. I'm just like, you know, just go listen

Thank you, Espo. You're so kind. We have a side gig, so, you know. All right, well, that was your Valley Sports Temperature Check. Before we get into our main topic of the day, I have to tell you guys about Jack King's Sportsbook. Jack King Sportsbook is an official sports betting partner of the NFL, and they have a week five offer that every football fan needs to jump on.

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All right. How about we get into our topic of the day, which I think is going to be a heated but interesting debate. And that is the worst Arizona sports roster moves in history. I'm excited to talk about this. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I know. Of course the murder host over here wants to talk about what moves murdered franchises.

I mean, I got to be honest, there's been quite a few of them. I was looking through last tonight, and I was surprised about how many bad decisions the leaders of the sports organizations in the city have made. I know we just talked about the weird contract negotiations going on with DeAndre Aiton right now, but there was a similar type of situation in the past to ESPO with the sun. And you want to talk about that? Tell us about it. Yeah, similar not as high stakes poker because the money wasn't a max deal. But back in 2004 in the off season, Joe Johnson was up for a contract extension.

Joe had been traded here from the Boston Celtics who had drafted him, came in as a young guy, and showed flashes. Wasn't the Joe Johnson that we think of now, I so Joe, all the big shots, but he was showing flashes of what he was going to become. Johnson wanted to get a six-year, $50 million deal from the Sons. And then the Sons and the front office and ownership kind of balked at that. Robert Sarver and Johnson won about about $5 million in total apart on the deal. Sarver reportedly wasn't comfortable with making another splashy sign after he spent $400 million the summer before. So this would have been the 2004-5 off season, I believe, when this happened.

But he wasn't happy or wasn't sure he wanted to invest that money after spending $400 million on the franchise and $110 combined on Nash and Quentin Richardson. So they made a big splash. That obviously isn't received well by Joe Johnson, who is sitting there going, well, I think I've earned this money. I'm going to stand strong of this. I want that extra $5 million. Plays the next season, goes through all that.

And then he's offered what reportedly was a six-year, $60 million offer from the sun, so $10 million a year for six years, which was about $30 million less than the max that you could have got. And then Atlanta decides to step in, give him a five-year $70 million. So significantly more. money and Joe Johnson said, peace, I don't want to be here. Let me out. Let me sign this. Don't match it. Much like DeAndre Aten will be next summer, Joe Johnson was a restricted free agent. The sons could have matched Atlanta's offer and kept him regardless. But after that, in that summer,

he said, quote, it's a lot of things, how things were handled last summer, how things were handled this summer. There's been some great or some things that going on that aren't that great. So basically puts it at the feet of them, I felt disrespected, right? So we all know what happens after that, right? The Sun's seven seconds or last is one of the most entertaining teams. But Joe Johnson goes on to be one of the best closers in NBA history. And if they had had him, that roster is, I think, unstoppable at that point. Because you've got Nash, Amari, Marion, and Joe Johnson locked up long-term

on that roster. And even Joe Johnson himself last year on the Cheat Day podcast said if I stayed with the Phoenix Suns, we'd have at least one title. That haunts me as well because that's probably the one time I really felt I really had a chance to win a championship. So yeah,

that's a rough one. So even Joe Johnson knows a title likely would have come to Phoenix if they had just ponied up an extra $5 million. This move, the Sons have chased a title, for 53 years.

We know the heartbreak. Suns fans experienced it firsthand this summer, the heartbreak of not having a title in this town. And that move in $5 million definitely cost the Larry O'Brien trophy being here in Phoenix and maybe multiple banners in the rafters. So $5 million seems pretty damn ridiculous in the whole scope of things. If I could, I'd get up and leave this room right now listening to this. because it's making me queasy.

But I mean, that move affected the franchise in more ways than one, besides not even making it to the finals. I mean, obviously, we don't really know if they would have. But there was like a lot of effects on the franchise even like for years after that too. Well, that was the beginning of the Robert Sarver's a cheescape kind of movement. And, you know, and Sarver was an inexperienced owner. He thought he could, you know, make wine out of water apparently. and that wasn't the case.

And the reason why he felt like that was largely because they had Steve Nash in the fold. And Steve Nash made a lot of dudes, a lot of money and made a lot of dudes look really, really good. And because of that, they thought they could just replace Joe Johnson with somebody else. But you can't replace talent like that. It came to fruition multiple times. They came so close so many times. And if you had another score like Joe Johnson, that probably would have put them over the top. But they didn't.

And they never came close. And I wonder how much negotiating tactics, I mean, negotiating taxes in business and negotiating tactics and sports are significantly different. Yeah. Right. Sure. And I wonder how much that came into play early on that the approach is, yeah, I know how to negotiate and I'm going to, this is what I'm willing to do.

And so be it. Walk away from the table. The problem is if you repeat that behavior multiple times is when it becomes problematic. And that's what a lot of Sons fans are worried about right now. With Yonre. It's, it's, it's PTSD. Yeah, and I don't say that lightly because I know that's a very serious thing for people, but in a sports sense, it is very much PTSD.

That it is, you know, Sun's fans now are sitting here going, oh my gosh, it feels very much like the past. And you've done nothing, you know, I hear you say things have changed, but have they really? And this is another opportunity to prove they have. And it hasn't gone off the rails. yet, but that's where the thinking is. Yeah.

There's, there, this is a still very much an open wound right. For Phoenix Suns fans. And, and that's, that's what's going on right now. And that, that, that reputation that started in this moment with those five million dollars has perpetuated since 2004. Till this day. And, you know, and yeah, certain things have happened, trading for Chris Paul and resigning him shows that, you know, you're willing to spend the money, but this is the next step because this is a young core you're trying to keep together, who has a legitimate shot at winning a title, and it feels like you're going to be arguing over semantics.

Yeah. Because in the end, he's going to get this max deal from somebody. They're arguing over essentially totals and points per game averages and things like that in his contract, right? Or, oh, how many all-MBA teams do you make to get this 30-per-kicker? or are you an all defensive player or, you know, all those kind of things. Again, things that we could see, you can hear on our other podcast for 40 minutes because we basically gave 30 minutes of that away in this section. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, I mean, Sun's Twitter was in disarray yesterday after that Wojbaum dropped. People were really upset, which I think is also justified because obviously something is not going right. If DeAndre Aiton's agent feels like he needs to, whether leak that information to Woz or whatever it is, to get that tweet to come out to upset Suns fans to get Suns fans to rally around the fact that they're you know they're not giving John Dr. Aiton what he thinks he deserves so I mean obviously that must be triggering for Suns fans because they went through something similar in that situation with Joe Johnson well just imagine if social media have been around oh god Joe Johnson stuff like we think things get contentious now but that was I think that would have been next level at that point too

I don't think they would have made the move that they did if they had that had that public pressure. Had social media been a thing at that point? Yeah, I mean, I tend to think that's probably right. And yeah, so strategic move, and I think it's the right one going on with DeAndre Aiton, but you look at the aftermath of everything that happened then, and I think this even bleeds into how Sean Marion felt later on about not being respected enough by the organization.

I think this is a starting point for a lot of things right here. I would definitely agree with you. So do I win? Can we just? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Not quite because we need to hear from Saul. And Saul's nomination for the Arizona Cardinals and what their worst roster move in their history was. Yeah, there's a few.

But the one that sticks out the most was kind of the end of an era anyway. In 2011, they traded Dominique Rogers Carmardi and a second round pick to the Philadelphia Eagles for one Mr. Kevin Cop, who was the backup to Donovan McNabb in Philly. And then Michael Vic, I believe, came into the fold. And then they had a little bit of a quarterback competition, and they bounced Kevin Cobb for the second round pick. He comes to Arizona. There was a lot of excitement. And remember, they had just lost Kurt Warner a season ago in this last year. They were trying to find another quarterback to fill those shoes.

And Matt Leinert wasn't going to be that guy. And so they traded for Kevin Cobb. Kevin Cobb had an okay season in 2011, but in 2012, he was in a quarterback competition with John Skelton. Skelton won the quarterback competition, but before the season started, he got injured, and Kevin Cobb comes in, they go four and O, and then in the fifth game of the season, he gets his brains beat in by the Rams. And that was basically the end of that because he wasn't healthy again. I think he only played two more games for the rest of the season. And then Ken Wisenhunt ended up getting fired, John Skelton, Max Hall, like the long list of Ken Wisenhunt quarterbacks that he tried to replace not only Kurt Warner with, but also Kevin Cobb with just, you know, Kevin Wisdenhunt for as much as of a quarterback guru that he seemed like with Kurt Warner. He was as much a quarterback killer during his tenure for sure.

And Kevin Cobb, to me, that was the one transaction where I'm like, man, you really, you really kind of crap the bet on that one. And then Ariens comes in. They want no part of Kevin Cobb. They release him, pay him like $2 million before. They owe him $2 million. They release him. And then Kime also replaces Rod Graves, who was the GM at the time, because Rod Graves had put together such a masterful roster. and Kime comes in, trades for Carson Palmer, and they go on a little bit of a run for the next three or four years. To be fair, they did say Drew Stanton was going to be their starter, remember that offseason. Oh, yeah.

Before they finally got Carson Palmer. You can talk all the things you want, but once you put something on the field, then that's what I'm going to judge. Thank God they put Carson Palmer on that. Do you think the decision to bring him in was just solely based out of, I guess, a desperation mode of having to... Well, it's because Ken Wisenhunt didn't know what the hell he was doing.

Yeah. Like they, he was, he basically thought that he could, he can make anybody a good quarterback, which he could make Matt Liner to a good quarterback. And so that's why they had to go to an old Kurt Warner who ended up, you know, obviously taking them to the Super Bowl and one of the great seasons in Cardinals history. But that was because Kurt Warner's the goat. Yeah. Because Ken Wisenhunt is just a genius. Right. I mean, so there was a lot of things about Ken Wisenhunt in his tenure that he just could not put together a good quarterback room.

the quarterbacks that they went through, oh man, the list is ugly and it's long. Derek Anderson. Oh, my goodness. The Kevin Cobb thing, he was in that long list of guys who are really good when they come in

as a backup and spot duty, whether guys injured or, you know, whether they're in cleanup duty and they look really good. Yeah, he was one of those guys. Yeah. Then people fall. Scott Mitchell, another guy, I believe, that falls in that category

but like people fall in love with these guys and I was one of those I thought finally they're gonna have a younger quarterback that they can grow with Kurt Warner I mean there's there's been you always see that that Brown's jersey with all the names of the quarterbacks

before they got Baker Mayfield the Cardinals were just as bad with quarterbacks in that time and and I looked at it I was like oh great young guy has potential finally man was I bought his jersey I think three games into that four game win shirt I still rock his jersey t-shirt

The only other transaction in my opinion Was really the lack of a transaction I should say And I think this is one that Cardinals fans will probably point to As the most egregious error because of what ultimately happened with said player was The passing of Adrian Peterson and drafting Levi Brown In the first round and Adrian Peterson, obviously, one of the greatest running backs in NFL history.

And Levi Brown played four or five seasons with the Cardinals, and then we'd never heard from him again. So that was a rough one, especially when you look at them making the Super Bowl the year after they take Levi Brown and pass up Adrian Peterson, they have Edgerman James in the fold. And I think that's something that people kind of forget,

is that they had Edgern James, and he had a really solid first year with the Cardinals. So they didn't feel like that was a position of need. They needed somebody on the offensive line. That's why they took Levi Brown. But when you look at it in hindsight, you're like, oh, man. And people were clamoring for Adrian Peterson at the time, too. It wasn't just because it was in the moment and they had Edron James because they were like, man,

could you imagine having Edgian James and Adrian Peterson in the backfield at the same time? Holy crap. That team might have won 12, 13, 14 games, especially in year two when they lose to the Saints in the second round of the playoffs. And Kurt Warner basically ends his career because he gets knocked on, you know, knocked to like last week. They killed him in that game. Yeah. But if you have Adrian Peterson in that game, everything instead of High Tower.

You know, as much as I like High Tower. Oh, man, we were hyped for High Tower for a minute. All the things change after that. Imagine that offense. Kurt Warner. Larry Fitzgerald. Larry Fitzgerald. I think he wanted.

I want to. Hankwon Bolden. You guys are killing Derek. Steve. The worst. He said the cry. They had Todd Heap. They had Todd Heep the second year.

That's right. That's right. Oh man. So many cool things that would have been cool. All right. So you mentioned two, but which one are you sticking with? I'm going to go with Cobb because Cobb was a train wreck. At least we got to the Super Bowl despite the fact that we didn't shake Adrian Peterson. Right.

After that. The Edron James point is a great point because we were really excited about him. And he was a superstar at the time. Remember he said, I can't wait to take the top off this stadium like a convertible. That's right. I still remember that I liked it. All right. All right. So Saul had two to pick between, but one was pretty obvious.

Derek, you got a long list, my friend, for the Diamondbacks. Do we want to do a top 10 list? Sure, just go ahead and run through that. I mean, I could talk about trading their number one draft pick, but at least Danesby Swanson didn't end up. Max Scherzer. I mean, there's so many players you can say, like, especially players that they let go and moved on from. I think that became a common theme with Diamondbacks players, including up to this day with Robbie Ray and how well he's been doing with the Toronto Blue Jays. I will say it's, for me, it was more of their acquisitions that bothered me.

It was some of the names. And to be honest, Madison Bumgarder might have fallen into this category as well had he not turned things around so significantly this year compared to last year. Two come to mind. Russ Ortiz being one. But for me, still the biggest one is Yizmani Tomas. You guys remember Yizmani Tomas? I bet you don't.

I remember a $68 million contract. $68 million contract. I remember he had a great walk-up song. Oh, yeah. Well, I'll tell you, Yassil Pug was so big for a minute in baseball that it literally caused a fad of trying to sign unproven Cuban players that, you know, that players teams had to pay a significant tax for on top of what they paid them as a contract. So the Diamondbacks played more than the $68 million for him. He was by far one of the worst players in history to hit 30 home runs. I think only three players historically had a worse, like, B-War than him.

that hit 30 home runs. He smashed the ball, but he was terrible defensively, and he just slowly went downhill. I mean, it was slow. Yeah, there was nothing about him. They tried to play him at third base. They tried to do anything that they could to at least, you know, utilize them. He had in his final three years of his contract, six at bats at a major league level,

0 for six and six at bats. I could have done that for a day. I could do that for a half a day. You would have paid me how much money I'll walk out there in. Take a swing. I mean, you can say a lot about all the different moves these teams have made, right? But at one point, these players impress them at some level in the sport, in the major league version of the sport, enough to either make that decision or not make that decision. That scout must have been drunk.

You know what I mean? How bad is that? This kind of gets 68 million and comes in and can't do anything. Well, and I mean, especially that part, we're a national league team. So there's no D.H option. If they were just looking for a guy to smash the ball. He would have been great as a D.H. Sure, but you have to do the other side of it.

And I think they couldn't even rely on him as a designated hitter. He didn't have great numbers in Reno, which everybody does. He just played consistently up there. And I mean, if you look at his career numbers with the Diamondbacks, they're not terrible, but his defensive numbers are so bad that they drag down his 266 batting average in the major leagues. And it just makes him a player that, you know, you can't utilize. Right now, he's hitting 185 for Rochester in the Washington National's AAA system. I mean, he's still not old. He's still not over the hill at this point as far as

his career is concerned, but he's definitely not a productive, you know, player anymore. It's just, it was such a weird swing and a miss. I still don't know how Dave Stewart got this organization to spend so much money so wildly at times as if they had it. I know that's kind of what the Diamondbacks have been built on at times, right? I've talked about it at length on our podcast, but the Diamondbacks knew that they had to spend money to make this team popular quickly so that fans would be a track to do it. And then they did exactly what they intended to do. They won a World Series, but people don't want to go through these years and years and years of teams being bad. And, you know, even when they try to spend money lately, they don't seem to spend money

in the right way. They don't do it very smart at all. Even the Madison Bumgardner deal? You just got rid of a big, large contracting Zach Granky, to get Madison Bumgarner, which are basically the same player age-wise, except Mad Bum has been to the World Series like three times and won the World Series three times. So he looked like a stud at some point, right? Yeah. Whether Zach Rinkie's never gone to that level. But Zach Grinky right now is a better pitcher than Madison Bumgarner.

So why even do that trade? Right, right. And Zach Ranky wasn't awful when he got traded. He was solid. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it just kind of goes to show you what has happened with this franchise specifically. When they trade players away for whatever reason, especially pitchers, they seem to go on and do way bigger, better things.

You know, Max Scher, I still can't get over that one. Yeah. I still can't get over. And I mean, you know, the thing about it was he got, he became so good after he left. And like, mine personally is Robbie Ray because that one just baffles me. I don't even think the Diamondbacks were impatient with Robbie Ray. It's just the minute he left, he got significant. significantly better.

And it's just crazy. It can't just all be coaching, but it feels like a lot of it has to be the coaching. Let's just be honest with ourselves, though. He didn't get significantly better right when he got to the Blue Jays. But the year after that, he was really, he's been really good this year. Right. Because when he first got to the Blue Jays, we would watch the scores and we'd watch the highlights. We'd like, oh, there's Robbie Ray.

He was getting the strikeouts, but he was still his old selling. I used to call him Robbie four innings. I used to call him Robbie four innings. Yeah. Now his name is Robert Raymond. Put some respect on his name. Let me ask this. Would you bring up how the dimebacks operated early on and it kind of set the tone for the way their spending's gone. But would you rather be the Tampa Bay raise over the time since they came into the league or the dimebacks? I don't know. That's a good question because at least the Tampa Bay raise have had several stints of being competitive. And I mean like being really good in a tough division over there as well.

I don't know. I think the Diamondbacks knew exactly what was going to happen here because of Jerry Colangelo's experience with the Valley. The race have been better for longer stretches than those aren't banks. I agree. And have been on a low budget. They've done it fiscally responsibly. But the weird thing is they both are in the same exact spot with fans. They cannot draw fans.

But I would tell you this much, I would never go to Tropicana Field. That place is just an awful field. And I have no interest. You talk about Chase Field. Baseball. Yeah. It's on an island for Pete's sake. It's so hard to get to and get out of.

Like, it's just a terrible stadium. It's for St. Pete's. But I'll say this. They, they did. I got that reference. There's a lot of stadiums in sports that are in horrible locations. Yes, that people still go to. How about Oakland when the Warriors played there?

They had great fans in that building. And it was a dump in a crappy area. The A's the same way. Like it's a dump, but people show up. Not as much in a football stadium that you want them to, but it's a football stadium for kind of out. I say that the Diamondbacks immediate World Series championship success kind of set a really high bar. You know, from that point on, it's kind of like when are they going to be this good anymore versus at least the raise kind of had what the Diamondbacks were going for initially, which was, you know, we're going to grow our farm system. It's going to take us a little while and things are going to, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll.

Get some young players and we'll develop them and that's how we'll go. We'll have like a seven year plan. And literally the attrition of 6,000 plus season ticket holders in the first season completely canceled that plan and changed everything. But that's what I'm saying. It's like if you're going to stick to a plan, if you're going to come up with the plan and say, okay, we're a small market team and we're going to do this. Even though Phoenix is not really a small market team, that's, that still baffles me to this day. But you're operating like a small market team with the budget that you have, then you have to be all in. on that. And the problem with the D-Bex is

is they're all in for like a year, two, maybe three, and then they go right back to, oh, and then we need a big splash because we're almost there, we're almost there, and it fools them into thinking that they need to make all these moves, and then they give the farm away, and then they got start all over again after they have the one

year, that one flash, if they get to the playoffs or the wild card or whatever, and it's all over again. Now we're in the middle of this rebuild cycle all over again. It's going to take us another couple years to get back to anything that resembles competitive. And what you're saying is so true because it's the entire history of this team. I interviewed Travis Lee one time and I was surprised that he had such bitter feelings towards the organization, but it was because of that pivot. He as a young player was told,

like, you're going to be a big part of this franchise. We're going to take our time. We're going to develop young players, you know, all of the stuff. And the next thing, you know, he's being traded, you know, for Kurt Schilling. And, you know, he's, he felt like he was sold a, but yeah, but I'm just saying, though, Like it's that all in attitude where they changed from from that seven year plan to being like, nope, 99. You know, that was the biggest turnaround in baseball history from 98 to 99 as far as a win loss. I get those kind of moves, though. Like if you're looking at a Travis Lee who like, who ultimately didn't really do much in his career. Okay.

If you're looking at a Travis Lee and you're like, okay, well, we have him and we see some good things, but maybe he's not the superstar that we thought he was going to be. and we legit could have a superstar come in here and change the game for us. Like you make that move and I totally get that. But to your point, if you're going to build something from the floor up, you can't bail on it when things get a little rocky. Like, I don't care if you have five people in the stands, if this is your plan and you're committed to it,

then you've got to commit to it all the way through. I don't feel like they're ever committed to it. They get to these little escalators and then they think, oh, man, I want to jump off at this level because it's really cool. and then they have to go all the way back down and start all over again. Shoots and ladders. My favorite games are good. Chutes and ladders.

Diamondbacks are playing the games of shoots and ladder. Let me just ask really quick. Do you think we ever see Asmani Tomas in a Major League baseball game again? No, I don't. Absolutely not. He's not showing any kind of potential right now at a minor league level. And honestly, he got the money that he, I mean, I think sometimes. Dude could retire and have the best.

We called him the King of Reno. Like, I mean, he was running things over there. He could walk away now. And as long as he didn't financially, he was. responsible could love the rest of his life very comfortably. Well, and I mean, this comes around to like the DA contract and other things in sports, right? Where I honestly feel like a lot of contracts should pay the man if the man reaches those goals, reaches certain levels of being an all-star, a pro-bowler, whatever the sport is, right?

I think that that a lot of contracts should be incentive-based because when you pay someone $68 million out of the gate, what incentive do they have to be good? I mean, they really don't. They're on a six-year locked-in contract that should be given to, like, the top tier of guys in the sport. That drives me nuts, though. Why should they be good? Because they're getting paid to be good. Sure.

Like, I don't understand the mental standpoint of, well, I got the bag. Now I can just slack off. I'm good. I'm not going to try to get better at my crap. I do not understand that in any walk of life. I do not understand. Because people are driven by money, I think that's what's happened to Yasmani Tamas. I just think that he showed some flashes of things that he might have been good at.

And the Diamondbacks drank the Kool-Aid. And they were like, oh, yeah, let's go. Because I agree with him on the heels of, what's the guy's name from L.A. Dodgers? Why can I not think of it? Kershow. Oh, Pookewik. Yeah, Pookech. Yeah, not Kershaw.

With Pookeg, yeah, he was a sensation. And people wanted to catch that kind of lightning in a bottle. And so the Diamondbacks went into that funnel. They got somebody who they thought was going to resemble something like that. And they overpaid and they screwed themselves. So I don't feel like it's necessarily Tomas's work ethic or whatever, even though I did hear about work ethic being an issue. But sometimes you just don't have that talent.

And you go bust your ass as much as you want. You still ain't going to be that good. But stuff like that happens all the time. I mean, look what happened with Brock Oswald in the NFL. You got paid so much money and sucked so bad. I'm so glad that you dragged a sun devil. I'm just being honest He was horrible

He never deserved any of the money that he was given And I'm so You have a guy over here by the way To the I don't understand to this day Why they gave that man so much money And I never will But it happens in all it's not just It's like that was a one time thing

Like it happens all the time They didn't even do that just for Yismani Tomas They gave a bag to Yon Lopez too He was another guy that was an unproven Cuban player And it was just again it was At that time it was like Hey however many of these young

amazing arms from Cuba that we can't really see it's a secret as to what's going down there you know is it's a wild prospect it's so bizarre to me like I get it Brock Osweiler showed flashes playing in the NFL right he that's how that's why he got paid on potential it was shown at times in the NFL hey he you pay to it his fullest you pay his moni Tomas at a Cuba that you haven't seen play at the highest level and he gives him $68 million. That's a real, real gamble. It's insane to me that that happens. But, Mac, I joked, was I the winner?

But I think at the end, we're all losers. Yeah, we've all lost this discussion. At least you've got to see some gruesomeness. You like murder. I love that. I love watching this happen. All right, let's wrap this up really quick by giving you a recap. So Joe Johnson and the Sons, Kevin Cobb and the Cardinals,

the Yasmani Tomas, and the D-backs. Those are our nominations. We're going to make a poll. Put it on Twitter so that you guys can vote and tell us what you think was the worst roster move in Arizona sports history. If you're not following us at PHNX underscore sports, go do that now. Before we get to our very last segment, which is who won the week. I'm really scared you guys. I have to tell you about Manscapes and I really don't want to.

Let's go. That's not the way to get into it. Give me that read. This is going to be so awkward. Everybody cover your ears that's listening right now. I'm not to cry. This is the sponsor. Do not cover your ears.

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Two hairy moon. Right. And so. Why are you asking that kind of a question? What kind of sworee are you at right now? I want to know what the dad is. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, there's nothing spooky.

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Holy cow, that was a horrible. But go to mansecape.com and use code page at next. All right. Quickly, we're going to do who won the week. You each got a minute to tell me why your team won the week. Derek, since you did it last week and these two didn't, I'm going to let you go first and give us a good example. I don't really know you'll have much to go on, but we're going to try. Ready, go.

The Arizona Diamondbacks won this week because I guess they won their final series of the year and have something positive to pat themselves on the back for. They lost the number of one overall pick, which I'm thrilled. about and it could potentially be Elijah Green, which is a franchise altering player. So sure, let's say that they won by having, you know, something to build on by beating the Colorado Rockies in a three-game series at home to end the series. Yep, they won. So the premise of this is we lie. What else do I have to go on? I will say, congrats to LaVallo for sticking around. And I hope that they do clean house on the coaches. And I would love to see some new coaches brought in.

and see what they can do with the potential of this team. No more pitchers going off and being great elsewhere. Nice. Good job. 48 seconds. All right, Saul, you think you got it? Yeah, I think I got it. Go. All right. So I would go with the Cardinals because they were really awesome this week.

However, I'm going to pivot, and I'm going to give it to another team because the Phoenix Mercury are right here on the precipice of a possible WMBA finals. I feel like Espo was going to say that, but I stole his thunder. That's why I'm going with this. Good. And Diana Tarasi dropping 37, the other. other night being unbelievable like she is. Brianna Turner having a phenomenal

game of 23 the other night. The sun supporting the Phoenix Mercury and the entire valley kind of rallying around the Mercury. I think everything that they're doing is trending in such a positive direction for not only women's basketball but for women in general and they deserve the love.

The sons are going to play on their court tonight, today this afternoon, and then the Mercury are going to take the same court and try to secure a win to go to the W&B final. So the Phoenix Mercury won the week. Let's go. Nice. 51 seconds. Watch the game tonight. They're playing the Las Vegas Aces. Go support

our women. They deserve it. Ready, Espos? Yes. Go. Michaela Perkins won the week. Oh, my God. By reading the Manscape Dad and not passing out from laughing so damn hard. No, the Phoenix Suns won the week because there's an old adage

that any press is good press as long as they spell your name right. Well, the sons are being talked about a hell of a lot right now. And their names getting spelled right and drug to the mud at the same time. So look, I think they win the week simply because they're relevant now, even with DA, but they're about to embark on defending the Western Conference Championship.

They're playing the first game today, Wednesday, in front of their home crowd since the finals. It's an exciting time, even with contractual stuff. Devin Booker came back to camp from COVID on Monday. There's a lot looking up for the sun. But yeah, Michaela won the week. Thank you. Thank you for reveling in my embarrassment with me.

So who won? I think I need to go with Saul and the Mercury. She looks right at me. She's like, I appreciate the pandering. But I'm going with Saul. I appreciate the pandering. You kind of screwed yourself by saying Michaela because she knew she couldn't pick herself to be the winner of the week. Because that would be very egotistical of her.

I can't do that. I would have done it. You set her up for failure, I suppose. I would have too. She didn't fall for the bait. Well, you really, you really set him up for failure. I did. Because you were supposed to go to the Cardinals, and you would have waited for basketball.

I guess I could have gone Cardinals, but I felt like I had to stick the movies. It's okay. I appreciate the pandering espot. It made me feel better. Good. If you think draft kings had a line on who could bet on who won the league, who do you think they would have a line on? Who do you think they would say would be the favorite? Yeah. A plus 1,500, I think.

Without a doubt. I would take that. Did you guys have minus $1,500? Derek would have a plus a $50,000 for that argument. Sure. I mean, a minus $1,500 on Solner. I don't believe in anything I say.

That's okay. Do you guys have any, do you guys have any? We got some great clips for today. We've got, I love murder, and I don't believe anything I say that we can utilize. In that entire Ian scape, Reed. I know that's going to come back to haunt me. But thank you guys so much for joining us today on the Phoenix. Not like a Halloween.

Oh, my God. Shave your hairy pumpkins. Thank you guys so much for joining us on the Phoenix Sports Podcast. Make sure you go check out go PHNX.com. If you become a member, you can have access to all of our amazing written content, exclusive video content, all of our podcasts and more. Also, if you become an annual member, you'll get a free t-shirt. So go check out, go phnx.com.

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