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'YOU Are An Extremist!' Owen Jones vs Josh Hammer on Gaza, Nancy Mace, El-Sayed, Sharia Law & More

August 11, 20260 comments♥ 0
00:00 Islam and political Islam, aka Islamism, aka Sharia law, is irreconcilable with Western civilization, Western democracy. That is simply the case. I speak to queer Muslims, and they feel often deeply frustrated that in a country where anti-Muslim prejudice and bigotry has got worse and worse and worse, their position is weaponized not by people who want to advance LGBTQRI, but people who want to demonize Muslims as a whole. Owen should walk into Gaza and say, I am a gay man. See how you're treated. I support the Palestinian people and I support their right to exist.
00:33 Who want to kill you. They want to kill you. President Trump announced his Gaza deal with massive fanfare. The Board of Peace reached a historic agreement for the complete disarmament of Hamas, he said. Israeli forces will withdraw. This weekend, however, Israel rejected that plan out of hand. Netanyahu's comments were the first public confirmation of what increasingly felt inevitable. Almost a year on from the so-called ceasefire, the IDF is.
01:00 still carrying out deadly strikes, including two not long after Trump's statement, and it currently controls more of the strip than it did during the actual war. About 70% of the surviving population either can't get back to their homes or have no home to go to. And Israel's failure to allow in bulldozers and excavators means that the full death toll remains unknown, and Trump's big plans for redevelopment are currently an impossible fantasy. Well, many of the upstart Democrats in a key U.S. election year have made Gaza and Israel a central part of their appeal to liberal voters. So far, Republicans have dealt with rising stars like Zoram Mamdani and Abdul-Said
01:37 by invoking 9-11 and Sharia law. But every opinion poll shows that voters on both sides are turning against Israel. Almost half of the country said Netanyahu should be arrested for war crimes on arrival in the US. And according to Pew Research, the Iran War has taken Trump's approval rating to the lowest for any president before the midterms since 1953. Well, candidates for president used to compete over who loved Israel the most and who would be toughest on Iran. The chances of that happening in 2008 look about as likely as that Trump Tower on Gaza Beach.
02:11 Well, joining me now is Owen Jones, political commentator and author of a new book, The Fall of the West. And Josh Hammer, the senior editor at large at Newsweek. Welcome to both of you. And Owen, welcome back to Unsensored. It's been way too long. Always good to have you on the show. The whole premise of your book is really about how Israel is at the root of many problems here. Do you feel vindicated by the turning global public opinion, particularly in America, in the last two years or so?
02:46 Well, just to be clear, that's not exactly the thesis. It's the idea that the West, with its endless, disastrous catastrophic wars, including supporting Israel's genocide, of course. That is a Western War, or genocide even. and as well as this economic model has brought the rest into existential crisis. It's the people who used the victory in the Cold War as they saw it to get higher on their own supply and have caused a global catastrophe, not just for the West, but for millions of people across the world.
03:14 But, yeah, I mean, look what's happened with Israel's genocide in terms of Western public opinion, because in the US, it used to be impossible to speak out about Israel's crimes against the Palestinian people. Now, more Americans than not, by a large margin, believe Israel quite correctly has committed genocide, as per the consensus of genocide scholars, including Israeli genocide scholars. They want arms to Israel to be ended. They have more sympathy with the Palestinians now than they do with Israel, which is the first thing that's ever happened. Amongst younger Republicans, there's been a massive shift against Israel.
03:50 But I think what Israel has shown, and I think this is why it's so indicative of the wider fall of. the West, if you like, is the West has lost its military supremacy, destroyed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now Iran. It's losing its economic supremacy because of the economic model it had, but it's also lost its moral supremacy. And that moral claim the West had to be the champion of freedom and democracy and human rights was buried in the mass grave of the crime scene of Gaza, along with tens of thousands of Palestinians, including children. And that's the point. The West no longer has moral, economic, and military supremacy. And it's frankly partly down, no offense to the guest who I didn't know who he was, I had to
04:36 Google him. But the sort of politics that he has promoted has brought the West to ruin. All right. Josh Hammer, once he Googled you, he realized that you were part of the problem. Your response? Well, Pierce, I had to Google my interlocutor as well. I never heard of him. And I probably will never hear from him again after the show, and that's probably best just for the both of us. Look, there's someone to respond to us. It's hard to know where to begin. Pierce, I think the viewers would probably benefit from a discussion. Hang on, hang on. Before we go any further, before we go any further,
05:10 just to be clear, neither of you had to Google me, right? I definitely don't know you are peers. Don't worry about it. That's correct. I miss you. So I... I wouldn't go that far, I'm. But Josh, go on. I think it would probably be instructive for the, viewers of this program, listening to Owen Jones, listening to Twank Uighur, Dave Smith, just casually throw about the term genocide. They say with such confidence, with such assertiveness,
05:40 with not even the slightest hint of questioning their word choice, their diction, and there's a genocide in Gaza. Pears, I have here in my desk a rock. The viewers can see this, the listeners can only take my word, but I am holding a rock in my hand. The rock that I'm holding in my hand is from the crematorium at Auschwitz. That is a genocide. A genocide is where all of the mass industrial tools of a nation are oriented towards the singular goal of eliminating from the face of the earth
06:12 a certain type of people with full deliberation and full intentionality, rounding them up in gas chambers, in mass graves, in all of the various horrific atrocities that the Holocaust and takes. We can debate what has happened in Gaza for the past few years. We can debate certain tactics. We can debate whether the IDF has done enough
06:34 when it comes to calling of individual homes and dropping leaflets. We could talk about the international law proportionality. We could talk about the Geneva Conventions. We could talk about the fact that it is the most humane civilian to combat in death ratio in the modern history of urban warfare. We can get into all of this. But what we have to get to, at least those of us were reasonable,
06:54 and peers I know sometimes you struggle for reasonable, Certainly my interlocutor appealing does not fit such a description. But what we should strive to is get to a point where we are operating within the Overton window of normal discourse, of non-hyperbolic, of non-catastrophic discourse. This is a war. And lest we forget, lest the viewers forget, it is a war started by Hamas.
07:17 It was a war started on October 7, 2023. Lest we forget, there was a ceasefire, a full ceasefire in Gaza on October 6th. 2006, 2000, and 23. What happened on October 7th was the equivalent, the equivalent of dozens of 9-11s. We're coming up on the 25th anniversary of 9-11. I remember it very well. I grew up in the New York area. I remember vividly seeing the smoke from the Twin Towers on that most fateful of days. What happened October 7th was the functional equivalent on the death toll of dozens, dozens of 9-11s on American soil. The median American watching this program should
07:53 ask him or herself, if this had happened in, let's call it, Texas, if you had thousands, thousands of Cinaloa cartel commanders who came across the border and just blindly mutilated and raped and butcher, they put babies nuffins, they executed women point blank range on their home. How would the United States respond? How would we respond? These are the kind of questions that have gone so far removed from this debate. And no matter how many fancy, words like genocide get perversely and morally incorrectly and legally incorrectly tossed around. I think it's a comment upon all the reasonable people to ground themselves in the basic facts. And Owen Jones can laugh his sorry ass off who he wants.
08:37 No one in the right mind really ought to give a crap. Can I just respond to something you've just, well, I'll respond if you let me to what you just said there. You just said babies were put in ovens on 7th October. Why lie like that? You know that's a lie. I'm not like. You know that never happened. You know that never happened.
08:53 You know, not a single baby, one baby, which is a crime. Let me finish. No, no, no. You had a long spiel and now I'm going to fact correct you. Because you can't just come on a show like this. You don't do facts. I know he likes accuracy. I know he likes accuracy in these discussions.
09:07 No babies were put in another one on the 7th of October. One baby was killed on October 7th, which was bad enough. That's Mila Cohen. She was eight months old. She was shot through the door of a safe room. That's the baby who was killed in September. That's a crime in itself. If that's a crime, which I say it is, by the way,
09:20 how to describe a fact, how to describe a fact, 1,000 babies, 1,000 infants under the age of one killed in Gaza by Israel since 7 October. It's horrific. And Hamas is morally and legally cold. Now, just to respond to what you just said about genocide, I understand that you're a big fan of Donald Trump. I don't often quote Donald Trump approvingly, let's put it mildly. Last year, he said, and I quote, a civilization has been wiped out in Gaza. Now, if I were to say to demand that a civilization was wiped out in Israel.
09:49 He didn't say it. Yes, he did. Iran prior to the ceasefire on April. No, no, no, sorry. Again, that's not, you're totally wrong. I'm sorry to fact correct to you again, but he did say, quote, this is of abating. He said this civilization has been wiped out in Gaza, and he's absolutely right. Nearly every freestanding every structure is damaged or destroyed. Almost every hospital has been attacked, every hospital has been attacked, every school's being attacked.
10:09 Most homes have been destroyed. Well over 100,000 people have been violently killed, according to every reputable study. Also not sure. According to the genocide convention, it means any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethical, racial, religious group. And that is deliberately inflicting on the group, conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical structure in holer in part. Now, I would just note quickly, okay, I would just note with you, because you are a supportive genocide, and I will make that very clear. I am not.
10:39 You said about these, about the Palestinian population of Gaza, you said this is a radicalized population that deserves shame, scorn, and diplomatic rebuke. You weren't talking about Hamas. They deserve all that. You talked about the Palestinian population of Gaza. That's what you said. You also said last raise of Gaza should resemble a parking lot in October 2020. You also called for the population transfer
11:00 of the people, the survivors of Gaza into other Arab states. You want Palestinians removed from Gaza. You don't want Palestinians to remain in Gaza. That's what you called for. I never explicitly called for that, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable option. By the way, dollar troubles have publicly flown
11:13 in February 2025. Did you say that? I never actually personally came out emphatically in favor of that, though. That's simply not true. Sorry, did you, did you, did you know, I'm quoting for what you said, did you not call for the population transfer the people of Gaza?
11:25 No, I know, first of all, I think it's a very reasonable option. By the way, there's a very long history of American presidents going literally back to the Hoover and Cool administration that actually support that.
11:35 I've actually never explicitly endorsed that myself. I've looked at it. Donald Trump in February 2025 in the White House proposed this, by the way. And you backed it. And no, what I said is that, I mean,
11:48 you backed it. Listen, I don't know whether your IQ is two or three standard. below the mean. But the way the negotiation works, no, I'm just quoting what you said. You start, no, but you need to learn thinking too about negotiation. You start with a far-out-there claim, and then you arrive at a reasonable place of moderation. Donald Trump did this. It was his proposal to float the idea of popular transit. By the way, apparently no one had their under bingo card. If I called, let me just make this clear. If I called for the popular, if I called for the Jewish population of
12:17 Israel to be removed from Israel, which I don't support, I oppose, I want the peace and security of all those between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean. I want all of them to have equal rights. If I calls for the population transfer of Jews from Israel, you would regard that as genocide on. Do you know what? You'd be absolutely correct. If I said the Jewish population of Israel deserve shame, scorn, and diplomatic rebuke,
12:38 you would accuse me of being genocidal. You'd be correct. You said many gullible liberal elites pretend the radical jehidists of Hamas do not represent the border Palestinian Arab population, but that is a lie. You believe in collective guilt and you believe in collective punishment.
12:50 You said that Gaza should resemble on a parking lot. You got your wish, by the way. You got your wish, tens of thousands of innocent people killed later. I said large swaths of Gaza, Shurban Parkland. That was literally on October 8, 2020. This is how you've got your wish. You got your wish. This is how wars work. You know, wars don't work by wiping an entire territory from the face of the earth.
13:10 Look at the photos of Dresden, Germany, circa 1945. This is literally how wars work. No, no. Now, the West apparently needs a reminder in how wars work. Now, you get you west of forgetting its moral superiority. If I called... Well, actually, well, okay, let me jump in. Let me jump in. Let me jump in here.
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14:17 when you go to QUO.com slash peers. That's quo.com slash peers. Actually, Josh, the whole point of the aftermath of World War II led by the Geneva Convention was precisely because of a collective view that some of the incidents like the carpet bombing of Dresden, like the dropping of nuclear weapons and so on, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that this should never happen again.
14:47 again, that was why the Geneva Convention got set up. And so to invoke- I mean, peers, among other reasons, like the Holocaust had a role to play in the Geno-Conventions, let's be clear here, was not just the genocide convention. No, no, of course, of course, of course. But the point I'm making is to now invoke things that happen in World War II as a justification for what the Israeli government's done in Gaza
15:12 is to miss the point that the whole Geneva Convention was set up to stop this happening again? What would you have preferred Israel do in response to the slaughter of the functional equivalent of three to four dozen 9-11s on their soil, the single largest genocide of Jews in a day since Hitler was alive? What would you have advised them do? Because from my perspective, they've done a pretty darn good job. Has it been perfect? No.
15:35 Have they been blunders? Well, let me give you. Well, let me give you, let me give you, let me, let me answer. I've said this before, and it's not an exact parallel. I accept it. However, we had for many decades the issue with Northern Ireland and the troubles with the UK. And I remember the IRA, a terrorist organisation, committing appalling atrocities, deliberately killing civilians, without any pretense of going after the enemy, as well as killing people they viewed as the enemy, like the British army and so on. But they did this for many decades. And at no point did any British government take a view
16:16 that the way to resolve this and the way to respond was to carpet bomb parts of Belfast, for example. So we had a parallel right on our doorstep involving a border involving a clash between. Well, listen, here's what I would say about Gaza. Here's what I would say about Gaza. And I've said this repeatedly. Hang on, Josh.
16:37 I've always defended, as you know, Israel's right to defend itself. I did so passionately after October the 7th. I got hammered by people on the pro-Palestinians. for doing so. But I stand by what I said for many months after the start of the response to October 7th. But I began quite quickly to say, what is proportionate? What is proportionate here? And actually, ultimately, I concluded that raising 80% of Gaza to the ground, making it uninhabitable, killing 80,000 or so people in Gaza as a response to the killing, the appalling killing in a terrorist attack. A mass percentage from here come on combatants, lest we forget.
17:18 Can I just respond? No, no, including, but let me finish my point, Owen. Is that actually, to me, it's been completely disproportionate. And so, and that's, by the way, that's the view of most of the world. So is why the international law of reputationality here on the show is what? Let me finish my point. I'll finish my point. I'll finish my point.
17:38 I'll finish my point. That is why Israel's reputation has been dragged further down and further down by the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu and his government, which contains people that I think are genuine psychopaths like Ben Gavir and Smodrich. So that is my view about it. Just quickly on Dresden, by the way. Dresden was a terrible crime in its own right, and there were people in Britain at the time who opposed what happened to Dresden. Nonetheless, there is no comparison here. Nazi Germany was a military superpower that had conquered Europe and had slaughtered tens of millions of people and committed an industrialized genocide.
18:16 and was attempting to quite plausibly at the time achieve world domination. Gaza is the size of East London. It is a tiny, overpopulated strip of land with a ragtang guerrilla army, and it has been wiped out from the face of the earth, deliberately and systematically. And what you just said to that is very important. You said it's been made uninhabitable. Again, I quote, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction and wholly in part.
18:43 That's what genocide does. It makes it's about in. That is not what is happening in Gaza. That's not an accurate description. But you support removing the Palestinian population. You support that. You support your definition earlier literally said that there is the specific intent. OK?
18:57 So in legal terms, we would say the mens rea, the specific mentality, to intend to annihilate a certain population from the face of the earth. How is that possible where the civilian to combatant death ratio in Gaza is literally 1.2.1.5. It's not a lie. It is the most humane civilian combatant death ratio in the modern history. of urban warfare. How do I know that? Because the literal number one Western world expert in urban warfare, John Spencer, who I believe he's been on the show before. He has, he has cranked the numbers on this. And who's going to dispute? Is Owen Jones gun dispute? Professor Johnson.
19:31 If you want to go there? Do you really want to go there? Is going to dispute those numbers? Do you really want to go there? That there's a subjective intentionality to, to annihilate a population from the face of earth with, you just made a, you just tried to, you've made a point that about deferring to authority. We'll defer to authority. all right, but we'll defer to authority. Who to listen to? A blowhard, like yourself, he's lucky to get, I looked, about 300 views on YouTube channel or
19:53 Professor Omar Bartov, the Israeli-American, Dean's Professor of Holocaust Study, at Brown University. He said, I'm a genocide scholar, I'm a scholar, I'm a scholar, I know a genocide. I'll say what, what about Amos Goldberg? No, no, no, no, I'm not finished. I will finish, and then you can respond. Amos Goldberg, Professor of Holocaust History
20:12 at the Department of Jewish Study and Contemporary Jury that Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Blackman, again, head of the Institute for Contemporary Jury, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Razigal, Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies. All of these are Israeli. All of these born in Israel, and all of these dedicate their whole lives to studying genocide and the Holocaust. Who cares? They're wrong. They're wrong.
20:33 They're wrong. They're wrong than the interpretation of Geneva. And by the way, you and peers are both wrong on your understanding, your misunderstanding. Yeah, but hang on. Hang on. All right, Josh, Josh, hang on, Josh. The point, the point surely is this. is that you can say they're wrong, but Owen is right, surely, to point out
20:51 that a number of Israeli scholars have concluded that what's been happening in Gaza is genocide. Who cares? Why would you not care? Pierce, I live in a country, America, that is 50-50 divide in every issue. Why do I care what my very incorrect countrymen
21:07 happen to say about any given issue, whether it's abortion, guns? Who cares? These are debates that happen, and I'm telling you, that the people, he's appealing to happen to be wrong. But I want to get back to a different question. Can I ask you a question?
21:20 Can I ask you a quick question? No, we've talked too much. There is a massive misunderstanding on this panel right now about the law of proportionality, which has been invoked numerous times. Here's what it does not mean. Here's what it means. A lot of people hear this phrase,
21:33 the law proportionality, and they say that is not proportionate when, let's say, Israel takes out 50,000 Hamas fighters, whatever the number is, in response to 12,000 civilians killed, because the number is not one to one. That's literally not the international law definition. The international law definition is whether or not the military goal,
21:52 the goal of the operation is proportionate to the expectation of collateral damage and civilian casualties. That is the actual calculation under international law. That is totally not what the prevailing understanding is. I think the understanding that has been presented here on this discussion today. So based on that, based on... Can I... Sorry, you're just speaking at a huge length here.
22:14 87% of those killed, according to leaked IDF estimates, are civilians. And what Israel has done systematically... I know you'll just talk over me. I know that you just... I don't know what... What Israel systematically does... ...is it classifies people who have been killed as Hamas fighters. Now, there's been detailed investigations by the likes of Harats, the Israeli newspaper,
22:36 which finds on an industrial scale, people who are not Hamas fighters, they're not militants, not fighters at all, are classified after being killed. as Hamas fighters. That's how these bogus calculations which you keep coming up with are invented. Now, on the point there, just about the Holocaust scholars, the genocide scholars,
22:54 the question you would have to ask yourself, surely is this. Surely, surely, if people who are Israeli-Americans, people who are proud Jewish, Israeli-Americans and Israelis who dedicate their whole lives to studying the Holocaust and genocide,
23:10 surely if they have come to this conclusion, you disagree, but surely these people having this whole body of work behind them, surely they must be a good reason why they have arrived at this conclusion. That is what you struggled to engage with. And that's why with Gaza, almost all of it destroyed. I'm saying that they are wrong on the basic facts. Over 100,000 people violently killed. Literally, none of this conversation is wrong. And are you calling for... We can turn about the clock in the show 15, 20 minutes ago. When Owen first read out the definition of
23:42 genocide according to Geneva. He talks about a deliberate intention. Pierce, the conversation ends there. It literally ends there. There is no deliberate intention. Why? Well, I think I would categorize it. I, okay, Josh, Josh, I would categorize it as this, which is something that Donald Trump has said publicly, which is you don't need to blow up an entire apartment block to target one Hamas terrorist. I think what's happened is not that Israel has tried to kill every Palestinian that it can, because it clearly has the military tools to do so. if you wish to do that. But I do think they have been unbelievably indiscriminate in their targeting of Hamas suspects. And they have killed a huge amount of civilians in the process of doing that.
24:25 And we've seen the same pattern in southern Lebanon. And I think that there is, so whether it's deliberate or not, can be argued by both sides. I've ever achieved number of warfare. Go figure. I just don't accept that. I don't accept that. I think it's complete bullshit to say this is the most humane moral. army in the world. And one of the reasons I say that, Josh, Josh, Josh, Josh, let me finish my point before you respond. One of the reasons I say that with confidence is if the IDF had in all his actions in Gaza been the most moral army in the world, why is it many, many, many months after the
25:01 supposed ceasefire came into operation that Benjamin Netanyahu and his government still ban international media from operating freely in Gaza? I don't have particularly strong thoughts that one way. They clearly think that it's compelled by national security. Really? You don't think it stinks to high. You don't think it stinks to high heaven? I really don't have a strong feeling on that one with you.
25:26 I genuinely actually do not. I genuinely don't know. Really? Could it be Josh? It's an act of war zone. Could it be Josh? It's an active war zone. Well, let me give you a thought.
25:35 Let me give you a thought. Could it be because the IDF actually has committed a number of war crimes they don't want the world to discover? Could it be that? Could you accept it could be possible? I think it's a ludicrous suggestion. Is it positively ludicrous? I would encourage you, I've done this on the show before.
25:50 I would encourage you if you feel that strongly about this question, why don't you go? Like literally show up on the border and get your film, your camera, you got a huge following. Because I won't be allowed in. Vote up on YouTube. I won't be allowed in.
26:01 No, no, but here's the thing. You clearly care out there because you brought it many times. If you care that much, go and expose to the world how the Israelis refuse up people into Gaza. Go there with your camera group. You don't understand, Josh. Josh, you don't understand, Josh. Josh, you don't understand. The international media, the international media are still currently banned by Netanyahu and the Israeli government
26:24 from operating freely in Gaza. They're banned. I wouldn't be allowed in. I could go in with the IDF who could show me what they want me to see, but I couldn't operate freely, despite the fact we are nearly a year into a supposed ceasefire. It stinks. It shows to me they have stuff they want to hide. And until they lift that ban, you cannot say, you cannot say, you cannot say, until that ban is lifted, you cannot say with any confidence that they have been the most moral army in the world. You have no idea, no idea at all, and nor's the world, because the media can't do their job. And it is shameful and unprecedented. Pears, I'm encouraging you to do the job, literally show up there on the border with your crew. I wouldn't be allowed in, Josh. That's the point.
27:13 What a ban don't you get? No, Pyrrhus, you're missing the point respectfully. Because you have a big platform. You can go there on the border and blow it up. Expose that they're not allowing them in there. You'll make a big stink of it. But we know that. You'll get your wish.
27:26 They omitted. They admitted. They admitted. It's their official line. What am I exposing? It's their position. It's the official position of the Israeli government. It's something to expose.
27:38 You can make a statement if you care of that strongly because you seem to care a lot about this issue. I still don't know. I just made it. I've just made it. I've made it on this show every week for the last year. If there's a ceasefire, let international journalists, proper war correspondents, go into Gaza and examine the IDF claim to have been the most moral army in the world. And the longer they are banned, the more it stinks, and the more my suspicion grows that they have not been the most moral army in the world. Hypothetically, if you are some of the journalist gets in their peers and then it is killed by Hamas because this is, after all, a terrorist organization. unless we forget, then what? Look, if they're going to get killed, journalists.
28:16 Sorry, I missed you. So hang on. Sorry, I didn't hear your question. The question is, Pierce, if you or some other enterprising journalists manages to get around the nefarious IDF personnel blockade on Gaza, and you get inside, and then a bunch of journalists are killed by Hamas because, let's not forget, they are Hamas, they are bloodthirsty terrorists, then what? Can I just respond to that?
28:40 Well, the most moral army. Hang on, Owen, the most moral army in the world, the IDS claim and your claim, have actually killed more journalists in Gaza than we have seen in recorded modern history. A number of these so-called journalists are, quote-unquote, Al Jazeera journalists who actually are working for false. How many? How many? I don't know. I don't have numbers, but many that have been exposed. They've been demonstrated. You've no idea. You've no idea. You've no idea. I don't know the exact number. It's a dozen, perhaps 100. I don't know the exact number. I think it's 240, 240 journalists. in Gaza have been killed, and the answer always is, well, they were mostly Hamas. And when I say, well, how many were Hamas? You have no idea. No idea. You've no idea.
29:21 You've no idea. But it's just, I, peers, I don't know exact number to prove your point. You've no idea. Because war correspondents are not allowed in to investigate it. Well, let's move on. Owen, I'm sorry. You got into a fascinating debate. Well, we could debate that for the whole show, but I don't want to. Owen Jones, I think it speaks for itself. Lift the ban, let the journalists do their job. Let's find out if they really were the most moral army in the world in Gaza. I suspect the longer this ban goes on, it answers its own question.
29:55 But we shall say history will judge. We'll find out. Now, Owen, you got into a fascinating online debate on X with Representative Nancy Mace over the weekend. She posted every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat to both national security and our republic. We refuse to be silent. You replied, this is a Republican congresswoman. If you spoke like this about Jewish Americans,
30:19 she would rightly be regarded as a loud and proud Nazi. Islamophobic spiraling out of control in the US. She then retorted, if not wanting to be blown up, stabbed or ran by a car by a radical Islamist in the United States of America, makes us Islamophobes, and so be it. I mean, it was an extraordinary exchange. She went on CNN and was asked about it. Let's see what she said.
30:39 Are you saying that anyone who is Muslim is a threat to this country? That's not what I said. And that's not what I said. Number one, I think we do have a real issue with radical Islamic. It sounds like that's what you're saying. No, I was talking about elected officials. When you look at what has just happened in the last couple of months. So any Muslim elected officials, sorry to cut you off, but just to be clear, any elected
31:02 Muslim officials. I mean, I've got to say, I thought that was a reprehensible big issue. comment by Nancy May. She's been a regular on my show. I was startled to see her say what she said. Every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat to both national security and our republic. And of course, this comes on the backdrop of a number of Muslims winning power in America from Mamdani to now new candidates like El Saeed coming through and others. You know, it was just pure Islamophobia where people ask, What is a zamophobia? I say that's what it is.
31:44 Amen. I didn't actually know she'd responded to me. So thank you for reading out the horrific response. I'd said the Nazi comparison. I think there are parallels. Because if you look at how Jewish people were portrayed in the first half of the 20th century in a mainstream way in Europe,
32:00 they were portrayed as dangerous violence-aversives, the Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy. That was the whole Nazi stick. The idea was that these were the dangerous, Jewish subversives who are trying to destroy Western civilization. Well, now that is what is said by mainstream Republican politicians about Muslims. And we've seen Zorn Mabdani portrayed as, what, repeatedly as an Islamist, condemned, you know, linked to 9-11, demands that he won't turn up to the commemoration
32:32 of, or to remember those who were killed on the 9-11 terrorist attacks. This use of Islamist, this constant use of Islamist, the idea is that. is that the Muslim community of, or communities of the US, are a fifth column, their traitors, their dangerous would be extremists, and there's no acceptable way for them to exercise their democratic rights. And I would note, they used to be a solidly kind of pro-Republican-leaning community. 70% of Muslims voted for George W. Bush in the year 2000. I think many of them went on to regret it.
33:05 But these are, you know, if you go, I've been to Michigan, I've been to Dearborn, You see the same white picket kind of houses. These are all American families taking their kids to school and all the rest of it. These are people who are teachers and doctors and factory workers and working shops. The backbone, partly of what, is often called Middle America. And they have been demonized and attacked in ways, which is getting to the point of being actually genocidal in tone. I know, again, I'm sorry to say this about my guest, but I did my homework. And it's important to do your homework.
33:36 But he is again part of the problem. He said about El-Said who got elected that he was an example of America's domestic Islamist problem. He said, I want to get to America's domestic Islamist problem. He said he's a Muslim, yes, well-done, well-rated. And he said he has a lot of beliefs
33:51 you typically ascribe to a Muslim from the state of Michigan. You talks about little Hezbollah and little Beirits around Michigan calling them subversive fifth column cells. And you said his victory was in the Islamization of America. I'll just make this clear. Al-Dol-Sai is not an Islamist. He is a Muslim.
34:06 He is a Muslim. He is a democratic progressive. He said it would offend his constituents. He said that. What's the evidence he's an Islamist? What's the evidence he's an Islamist? Okay, if you let me speak, Abdul al-Sayed refused to condemn,
34:19 or refused to celebrate, excuse me, the assassination of Ali-companied because he said to do so, he said to do so, would be to risk offending my constituents. He campaigned on his final day in office with his final day in office, with Hassan Piker,
34:32 who said that he would vote for Hamas a thousand times out of 1,000. He called him, of course, said that America deserves, of 9-11. Among all of other things said that he said, Hassabikers said that Mao Zedong was one of the great leader of the 20th century.
34:42 What's the evidence? What's the evidence in Islamist? What's the evidence in Islamist? What's the evidence? Has been funded by $115,000 of donation money that is tied to two organizations. Care of the Council of America's Law Relations and ISNA, the Islam Society for North America.
34:54 Not Islam. As, well, what's the evidence is in Islamist? Let me educate. What is an Islamist? Define an Islamist. Define an Islamist. What's an Islamist? What's an Islamist?
35:03 Let me talk. You are insufferable. Just say what is. Just say what is. Care, peers, if I can actually speak for second. Care was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial in North Texas. It was the single largest terror financing bust in the history of the United States. It was a direct funneling money from the Holy Land Foundation based in the Dallas, Texas suburbs, to Hamas.
35:23 Care was literally named by a federal judge as an unindicted co-conspirator. They were banned subsequently six years later by the UAE as a terrorist organization in the UAE. They are bankrolling, Al-Dal-Said to the tune of $150,000 in dorm money. Abdul Saya's father-in-law, meant by the name of Taibi, if I remember correctly, is a founding member of Isna, these alongside North America in North America. Isna has longstanding ties to the brotherhood, to Hamas.
35:48 In fact, federal judges have actually said that there is a close nexus between how Isna operates and how Hamas operates on American soil. All right, so Josh, so Josh, okay, so Josh, let me ask you this, then. Would you condemn what Nancy May said when she said every single Muslim? holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat.
36:10 But would you condemn what she said? Okay, that's a wholly separate conversation. I do not agree with what Nancy May said, as she said. I don't. I actually had Dr. Judy Jasser on my show when he ran for Congress. I'm a big fan of his. I hope that he won his primary in Arizona. He unfortunately lost that primary.
36:25 There are various other Muslim-left officials who think are wonderful Americans who assimilate amazingly well into American- So you would condemn what she said, to be clear. I do not agree with how she said it. However, however, is it racist? Would you condemn it? Hang on, Josh.
36:41 Would you condemn it? She missed Spock. She overstated her points. No, no, I think she didn't miss speech. She didn't miss speak. She was very clear. Every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse. I don't agree with that.
36:56 And a threat to both national security. But do you condemn it? Sure, I'll play this dumb game. I will condemn it, whatever. Is it racist? It's not a dumb game. Here is what a... Is it a dumb game?
37:08 No, because there's a much more important point here. The more important point, which the point Nancy May says, is very, very sloppy getting at is that Islam and political Islam, aka Islamism, aka Sharia law, is irreconcilable with Western civilization, Western democracy. That is simply the case. That is absolutely true. That is the point that brings me, okay, well, that brings me...
37:30 Okay, well, she wasn't sloppy. She was very deliberate... By the way, I'm no fan of Anthony. I've criticized her a million times over the years. I'm no fan of it. No, no. It should be very easy. It should be very easy to condemn what she said as bigoted, racist and Islamophobic.
37:45 Because it was. It was. It was. But I would say back to you, Owen, that Abdul El-Said victory in the Michigan Democratic primary has reared other things he said, including this clip of him, where he seems to suggest that trying to ban Sharia law is racist. Let's take a look. We're sitting in a space, in a time when I don't have to tell you that the same exact forces
38:12 that drove native peoples from their land two centuries ago, destroyed Black Wall Street a century ago, bombed a building decades ago, and tried to ban Sharia law, not a decade ago, that those forces are alive and well today. Now, do you see the issue with that, Aram? No, I mean, in various Western countries, you have Sharia courts.
38:42 They're just not legally binding, and they shouldn't be legally binding, and no one's suggesting that they should be including him. He doesn't support Sharia law. What happened 10 years ago is Republicans in various states post what they called anti-Sharia bills, which were just introduced purely in order to tap into anti-Muslim prejudice because there was no Sharia law in any of those states. There was never any Sharia law.
39:05 existing in any states, those bills were passed purely in order to whip up an anti-Muslim hysteria. And they succeeded. And that was racist. Yeah, these are prophylactic measures. Muslim immigration to America has increased at a dramatic rate ever since the heartseller bill in the 1960s. Pierre, do you know at this point a recent poll show that 44% of American Muslims support Hamas and a favorable view of Moss? That is a recent poll. There was actually another poll that came out about three weeks after, October 7 that showed that 57 and a half, give or take percent of American Muslims support what
39:40 happened on October 7, 2023. When I grew up in this idyllic white pick offense setting that Owen is describing, I grew up more or less in that setting. And I grew up thinking that America was a melting pot. A lot of people assimilated, whether it's whether they are Jews, whether they are Muslims or whatever. And that might have been the case. That is no longer the case. At this point, American immigration, American assimilation is fundamentally broken. And at this point, the second and third generation of American Muslims are simply not assimilating into America's broader civic culture the way that a previous generation was. That is why, again, to drive this point home, 44% of American Muslims have a favorable view or outright supportive of Hamas. That is a,
40:18 that is a U.S. recognized foreign terrorist organization for the past three decades. It is a stop. On that, look, on that. It's absolutely. You're not, you're not in any position. I haven't seen that polling. And I'd be very, I'd be interested to see that polling, say the least. You were not in any position to condemn anyone else for extremism when you call to large ways of Gaza to resemble a parking lock, when you call for the epic cleansing of Gaza, and you described the context of the genocide that occurred the prior day. And you described the entire population of Gaza as deserving scorn and shame.
40:51 You're not in a position to dictate, to talk to anyone about Paul's and what's happening? Look, what happens is I try and say anything? Let's talk about the, let's talk about the end. The problem, what's happened. Palestinian Arabs and Gaza are actually raised on. What's happened in American society is increasingly people like yourself are now seen as extremists. Polling in America shows that people regard what Israel has done as being a monstrous crime,
41:14 more Americans not think it's genocide. And what you have to now face is people think you are an extremist. They think people with your view who supported the wiping out of Gaza from the face of the earth, which is a much bigger crime than anything Hamas did, a much bigger crime. I'm not aware of the happening in my own country. You are regarded increasingly as an extremist. And I don't think you in any position to condemn an entire group within American society and try to, in a prejudiced way, and suggest that they support violent extremism.
41:44 When you literally support one of the worst acts of violence of the 13th century. I'm citing polls. I'm literally citing balls, dude. All right, let me ask you. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Let me ask you go in a question. Oh, and do you support Sharia law? No, I don't support Sharia law. No. Why, what an odd question. Well, why should it be tolerated out of interest in a country like the United States?
42:09 It's never, that Sharia law's never existed. It's never been illegal. You never had Sharia law. The bills were passed in order to whip up a moral panic in the United States around 2011, 2012, 2013. And the reason they were pushed by the time the Tea Party type Republicans was to whip up a moral panic about a non-existent issue. That was the problem. And that's what they did. But there are now, in the UK alone,
42:33 there are now between 80 and 100 unofficial Sharia law courts, right? And the reason I asked you is you're a... They're not legally... Look, you're a high-profile gay man. And as you know, Sharia law, specifically amongst many things, prohibits same-sex sexual acts.
42:54 What do you feel about that? But again, Piers, look, you're a very intelligent guy, and you know perfectly well that the claims of Sharia law existing in Britain in any legally enforced way at all is non-existent. It doesn't exist.
43:07 There is no Sharia law. You have Sharia courts, but you also have, you know, other communities that you have, again, within communities, for example, you have a Jewish police kind of force within North London. It doesn't have legal powers
43:20 on the same level as the police. It's a community patrolling organisation which doesn't have those legal powers. powers, Sharia courts, which manage, for example, family disputes and other such matters. That's what they actually do in practice in Britain. They don't have, they're not enforcing anti-gay laws. That doesn't exist in Britain.
43:40 And you know, I speak to queer Muslims, and I think, which I think is quite important to do because they're raised from the conversation. And they feel often, deeply frustrated that in a country where anti-Muslim prejudice and bigotry has got worse and worse and worse is that their kind of plight, if you like, their position is weaponized not by people who want to advance LGBTQ rights, but people who want to demonize Muslims as a whole. And obviously, I want queer Muslims to be able to come out and be their true selves. Of course, I support that. I want anyone who's LGBTQ to come out and be their true cells. But there's no Sharia law in Britain, which is banning gay people.
44:16 Olin should walk into Gaza. He should walk into Gaza. How would I do that? And say, I am a gay man. How would they do that? Say, I am a gay man. See how you're treated. I've been, I've been to, sorry. You would get stoned. I've been to the West Bank. I think you will get murdered by the very people that you are on this show and apparently wrote a whole book defending. Just on that, just on that, I support the Palestinian people and I support their right to exist. Who want to kill you? That doesn't mean what the Palestinian people. They want to kill you. This is the problem.
44:43 You know that, right? We're going back. We're going back again to the genocidal mentality you have, because you have a view of the Palestinian population as a whole. What's happened to LGBTQ Palestinians in Gaza is the same as what's happened to straight Palestinians. LGBT people in Gaza have been blown up by Israeli missiles. Their homes have been destroyed. Their relatives have been killed. They have been deprived of medical care.
45:05 They have been reduced to living in tents. And they have been starved. That's what's happened to LGBT people in Gaza. And the idea, if he speaks to queer Palestinians, they are so angry about the fact that there are historically shot with you. You will hear their fury that they are being used to pink or to genocide. How many quote them called queer Palestinian Arabs have you spoken to know? What happens to LGBTQ Palestinians is not in any.
45:27 away a justification for wiping out an entire territory. And it is offensive to say that LGBTQ people should support wiping Gaza from the face of the earth. Even heirs agree that they were not. Because that will advance LGBT rights. It's not doing it. Do you think this is about LGBTQ rights what's happened to Gaza? Do you think that? I didn't even hear your dumb question.
45:47 What was it? I said, do you think that Gaza being wiped off the face of the earth has been done to advance the cause of LGBTQ Palestinians? Is that what you believe? Do you believe that? Okay, Gaza has not been wiped off the face of the earth. 85% of his buildings. For starters. 85%.
46:03 Second of all, I don't particularly care because the goal of the operation in Gaza is to eliminate Hamas. Whatever happens to the quote-unquote empty cause is neither here or there. So why I talk about LGBT people if you don't care about them? I know you don't care about us. I know you don't care about LGBT-Q Palestinian. But what's a offense it is? And it's a little weird. It's a little odd.
46:22 I honestly had no idea that you were again. I had no idea. Speak to LGBT-Calistians. They will say that their main issue is with Israel's genocide and Israel's illegal occupation. I've been to the West Bank, by the way, as an openly gay man. I've gone around the West Bank as a gay person. I've met gay Palestinians in the West Bank in Palestinian cities, I might add. And I also, by the way, I have an open queer person.
46:45 And I have a social media profiles. And I speak to Palestinians in Gaza every single day, by the way, every single day. They're well aware that I'm gay. They went away and they know that I oppose the genocide. You are demonizing the Palestinian people as a whole in order to justify genocide, including by using LGBTQ people. Okay. Let's end.
47:04 I want to end. I want to end. I want to end. Let's move on. Let's move on. I want to end by just talking about something slightly different, which is something that AOC, Alexandra O Koso said, about wokeism. Let's take a look. Abolished prisons, abolished police,
47:21 which is also positions that have been taken by a lot of the, progressive candidates who have won. How do you get around that? Yeah. Those are not positions that are supported by most of the world. I mean, I think that a lot of these races, even right now, they'll have a tendency to be nationalized. Yeah.
47:39 But these races ultimately are local and all politics are local. My understanding is that Francesca Hong has made clear her present stances to her electorate. She's moved away from a lot of that. Right. She's moved away from it. And I have a local city councilman that has this saying, Woke One was crazy. So, I mean, do you think that Woke One was crazy? You were, of course, a leading light of Woke 1.
48:11 Well, I don't know what you mean by, I mean, this is the problem. I don't really know what we mean by Woke. I support equal rights for minorities. And on the issue there, because I think this was about the police and so one. I mean, I never said abolish the police and abolished prisons. What I did argue for, and I still argue for, I still argue for, is that we need, for example, with incarceration, mass incarceration,
48:30 I think what we do is we lock up lots of mentally ill-poor people in the US disproportionately black people, not least because of the fair war and drugs. I think that has failed. I don't think that means nobody goes to prison. Obviously, I've never argued that. But I got beaten up by a Nazi a few years ago, near a Nazi. He got sent to prison for two years and nine months.
48:48 I didn't support that. I didn't see he had eight previous convictions. And I thought what we need instead is, So, for example, dealing with mental health issues before they become a crisis and often lead to violence. People often who've been abused as children, people who are traumatized by their experiences. People who, for example, the failed war and drugs,
49:07 which I think hasn't succeeded. But also with the police, for example, what often the police are dealing with are mental health crises. They're dealing with people who are traumatized, and they don't have the training often to do that. In the US, in a couple of cities, what they've done is they've trained up people who specialize in mental health to take some of the calls that the police responded to previously.
49:31 That's taking pressure off actually the police who can then focus on the issues. All right, but I think what we're talking about with Woke 1, let me give you an example. If I was to say to you, what is a woman? What would you now say? I mean, again, I still believe in... What we're going to go down is that, I guess, the 2020...
49:49 You want me to talk about genocles and national TV on a YouTube channel. Is that where we're back to talking about genitals? I just think that whole... I just asked you what... I just asked you... I literally just asked you what a woman is. Simple question.
50:02 A woman is a female? What does that mean? A female? So a biological female? Yes. Also when he transitions... Okay. Also when he transitions... Also, when he transitions to being a woman. Also, what? Sorry? Also, people who transitioned to being women
50:21 should be accepted as women. As people who transition... transition to being men, should be accepted as men. Right. So would you allow trans athletes to play in women's sport? Yes, but again, with these issues, there was what I think, for example, one suggestion was you can do it by, for example, by weight. Or you can do it by testosterone levels. By weight? Yes.
50:47 Surely Owen, Owen, Owen, Owen, Owen. Let me educate you about biology and physiology. Okay, here we go. Because clearly it's taken you a few years and you haven't quite got with the program. When you are a biological male, you have immediately superior body mass, lung capacity, things like that. It makes you stronger and faster and more powerful than biological females. That is why even if you transition, you maintain, as Caitlin Jenner has talked very openly about, you maintained a superior physiology.
51:21 So my question for you is, by your yardstick, then, if you would allow trans women to appear in women's sport, would you then make the Olympics gender neutral? Because it's the same thing. So would you allow the Olympics and say the World Cup all to be gender neutral? There's just, I think on this, firstly, people, again, repeated. There's been several studies that show when people transition that actually those advantages go, actually. But I think the other point is, no, completely untrue. No, Owen, I'm sorry, you've just lied. Owen, you just lied.
51:56 You just lied. I haven't lied. There is no, there is no, there is no, oh, in, there is zero scientific study. Here's why? Where were all these trans, where were all these trans athletes? Where were all these. These are women's sports? Where were they met?
52:11 Where were all these great successes? I mean, there was barely any. Let me explain to you. We're talking, the United, the United, the United Nation, the, if I may, the United Nation, the United Nations, said that I think in 2024, nearly a thousand medals at all levels of women's sport were won by trans athletes, thus depriving actual women and girls of winning. It doesn't matter, does it? Well, it does because what the argument there would be is that a trans woman would never, ever, ever be able to win any men.
52:41 Owen, by your argument, if it makes no difference, if it makes no difference, would you allow the Olympics to be gender neutral? No, but again, I mean, with the issue with trans sports... Why? Why wouldn't you? Because we're talking about such a small, tiny, tiny number of trans athletes. No, we're not. Yes, we are. No, we are. I just never saw this idea that sports were being overrun by transit, which is more than true. So just to be clear, then, you wouldn't want the Olympics to be gender neutral,
53:14 even though you believe there is no advantage to be a biological... I didn't say there was no advantage. I just said people who transitioned that those advantages were eroded. And there wasn't actually... They are not eroded. There was actually very few examples. There was very few examples of... Any basic... Any scientist or doctor... Any scientist or doctor...
53:35 Any doctor or scientist or doctor... Any doctor or scientist will tell you that reducing testosterone has zero impact on body mass, lung capacity and the other advantages... being a biological male have over being a biological female. Well, again, there were two studies, I can't quote them, unfortunately. I was trying to look them up, but unfortunately, there's no reception here. There were two studies which locked out the erosion of the biological advantage. But I, say it again, sorry.
54:06 But I did I. No, by all means, publish your own science about it. What do you mean? Sorry, we're speaking over each other. Sorry, Pierre, say that again. Well, I think the bottom line, look, let me come to Josh to get involved here. Josh, the bottom line for me is, if you genuinely believe there is no unfair advantage to biological males who transition competing in women's sport, then it follows de facto that you ought to argue that all sports should be gender neutral because the biology makes no difference.
54:35 And yet the specific reason we separate the sexes in things like the Olympics and the World Cup and other major events in sport generally is because it is. scientifically proven as an undebatable fact that biological males have a physical advantage over biological females. Yeah, Pierre, the only thing that I just learned from this highly unilluminating exchange with my interlocutor and yourself is that my interlocutor is not just intellectually corrupt and competent. He's also just just mentally and morally incompetent. I mean, there are some, there are more problems here than meet the eye. So in the last Olympics of 2024 in in Paris during the boxing tournament, actually, there was a biological female who had, I believe it was a cranial fracture. It was a very severe injury during the Olympic competition
55:24 from a biological male, which is actually why the IOC has come out and said that they're going to enforce a chromosomal policy, like an actual biological policy, X, X, or X, Y chromosome in advance of the Olympics in 2028 in Los Angeles. I also note here at the U.S. Supreme Court, we just had a case on this. We had a case involving transgender athleticism back towards the end of the term that just ended in June. It was a nine to zero case. It was a nine to zero case that in this case, Idaho and West Virginia are not discriminating when they ban quote unquote transgender women, aka biological males from competing against biological women in athletic competition. That position was supported by the two most liberal justice on the court, Sonio Somioyevon and
56:05 Katajman Jackson, the latter of whom Justice Jackson infamously at her own sent judiciary committee confirmation hearing for the court in March 2022, when pressed on this by Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee, infamously refused to say, what is woman, much like Owen Jones? And yet even she said, even she said that it is totally fair to segreg, quote, unquote, said grade, I guess, based on, based on biological sex and chromosome structure. This is an open and shut issue. It's an issue that the left, by the way, has politically been losing on in America quite badly.
56:35 It's not exactly anyone's probably number one voting issue. It's not the economy or anything. But it's a massive albatross around the neck for the Democratic Party for the left, which is probably why even AOC yourself is taking at least some measures to dissimself from that political toxic. Yeah, you know, the bottom line I know it is that as I've always said, I want trans people to have exactly the same rights to fairness, equality and safety that you and I enjoy. I absolutely do. And I really feel for the trans community about how they get exposed to so much mockery
57:09 by people who promote this farce of trans athletes and women. in sport. Last we go interview Martina Navratilova, who was so powerful about this. She said that at the peak of her tennis powers, she wouldn't have beaten the top 500 men in tennis, probably more. I think Serena Williams has said 800, right? There's no comparison between the physiology of these athletes at any level of sport. And when I hear people on the progressive, where people on the progressive left, try and argue this point, most of America and most of Britain think you're completely nuts. Why not just say there is an advantage, it is unfair,
57:49 I want trans athletes to compete in sport, but not against biological females, because that is as unfair as if they were doping. Because you know, Owen, and I know, and Josh knows, and we should all agree here, that is the reality. I think the issue that I generally have with this whole so-called quite tardy conversation debate, which we've had now for several years
58:10 about trans people and their existence, is it doesn't start from the basis of how do we accept inclusion and work backwards from that. You know, if people who have made these arguments have started from a position of, we want trans people to be included, not, I mean, athletics, again, or whichever topic we have to be talking about, because, you know, the vast majority of trans people are not athletics, are not athletes that we're talking about 0.5% of a very, very small minority as is. It's not part of people's everyday experience. If people have started from that basis,
58:45 then we could have had a rational conversation, but that's not what happened. We had instead a debate led by people who just preferred trans people not to exist, and they wanted to just find... But I don't. And I'm saying this conversation by the likes of Donald Trump
58:58 and the people associated with him when they issue directives, for example, banning trans people from the military and all the rest of it. No, I'm saying, but you're not running... I'm talking about the United States, the people who've run the superpower of the United States. And the problem is generally...
59:09 No, but you're talking to me now. people is. When I say to you, when I say to you, it's unfair, they're frightened to leave their home. They can't use public toilets. They're scared to use a public toilet. They face physical abuse. They face verbal abuse. They face discrimination in the workplace. And I just think the problem is the whole atmosphere and tenet of this conversation, which is focusing on, which is what happened. This is what reminds me of gay people in the 80s and 90s, because it's always the focus on extreme, basically marginal examples. But Martina and a wrackle over as a gay woman.
59:43 The whole community as being a problem. Martina and that rankle over is a gay woman. No, I know that. This has nothing to do with sexuality. No, I know that. I know there's one of those various gay people who, I'm not accusing her of this, who actually, he spoke about trans people, much like gay people used to be spoken about the 80s and 90s, which I think is unfortunate. I just think it has to be on the basis of how do we maximize inclusion
01:00:04 in society of every point? possible minority. And for trans people, I see it's very simple. It's very simple. What is your solution to? Owen, it's very simple. Trans athletes either compete against their biological sex. So if you're a trans woman, you would carry on, as most of them have done, by the way, previously, you would carry on competing against other biological males, which is your physiology. Which trans women were competing? Honestly, I'm asking you a genuine question here, because I don't know the answer to this. Which what, sorry? I'm asking you a question because I don't know the answer to what I'm about to ask you.
01:00:37 you, which trans women as trans women were competing against men? I don't know which athletes you mean. It's everywhere. It's literally everywhere in the United States. The swimmer, the swimmer Leah Thomas became one of the most successful swimmers in America. No, no, no, I didn't ask you. That's not the question. That's not the question.
01:00:54 What's the question? You said that trans women were competing against men, biological men. So I'm asking which trans women athletes were competing in the years of men? No, no, no, you asked me. No, no, you were, no, you misheard me. They should. In other words, if you want to make trans athletes inclusive. They said they used to be. No.
01:01:13 You said they were doing that. I said almost all of the trans athletes that I've seen reported on used to compete as men against other men. When they transitioned, they then compete against women. The common denominator, Owen, is they are massively more successful as trans women competing against biological females than they ever wore. Well, why are you shaking your head? No, because there have been very few actually trans women athletes who have actually, for example, I mean, has any of them won a gold medal at the Olympics?
01:01:48 None of them have. Or even a silver medal. Well, what would you do? Why do you think you know more than Caitlin Jenner, who won Olympic gold as a male. I don't support Katie. And now says to anyone who listens that if she was to compete against women,
01:02:05 right, biological females, she would destroy them. Why would you know more than her? I mean, Caitlin Jen, look, I'm not on the same page as Caitlin Jen, a lot of things. She's a pro-Trump Republican. So just generally, obviously, lots of other trans. So? Because I don't think she represents the consensus of what trans people would say.
01:02:24 Why do you know more than Martine and her rattle over? I've not claimed to. I'm just saying the very, very few trans athletes who actually do compete, full stop. and that this has been, you know, an issue which is affecting, what, 0.5% of trans people, which has been used to treat trans people as a whole as a problem. Because all we've had a focus on is trans people as predators and trans people as athletes cheating. Okay, but that argument, yeah, that argument doesn't work with people like me, though, because I'm somebody who doesn't fit that category.
01:03:00 Anyway, we'll move on. No, but I ask you. You've made it clear. But you never talk about, you don't talk about, can I ask you? I think it's unfair. Can I ask a chat just one thing to you? Because you do actually do a range of, you know, you talk about a range of topics in this program. I do, I do really appreciate that.
01:03:14 But could you not do more on the experiences of trans people who face abuse in the street, who feel scared even to use now toilet facilities? Here's my biggest problem. If you talk more about those issues. Owen, Owen, let me answer. My biggest problem with so-called trans allies like yourself is that by perpetuating the that there is no unfair advantage for trans athletes in women's sport, you are directly amplifying the mockery that then comes trans people's way.
01:03:45 And actually, it would help the trans community enormously. If people like you said, you know what, I got this wrong, actually there is an unfair advantage. How do we make trans athletes inclusive in sport? And here's my answer. That's not why they either compete against their biological... Hang on, they either competed against their biological sales. or they compete in a new category. And that is the way to get through this.
01:04:08 But as long as you try and tell us that black is white or white is black and there's no advantage, no chromosomal advantage, then I'm afraid you will continue to be part of the mockery that goes trans people's way. And that's incredibly unfortunate. I mean, it's not an issue. By the way, it's not even, it's this idea that I've been standing for the rooftops talking about this as an issue.
01:04:30 What I've been talking about is trans people should be accepted at a time. when hate crimes against trans people have escalated, when they're being facing discrimination against. They should absolutely be accepted. And now in Britain, they should be given the same rights. And now in Britain there's an effort to ban them. There's an effort to ban them from using toilet. All right.
01:04:46 I'm going to end it by saying this. They should be, just to be clear, trans people should get exactly the same rights as you and me, but not at the expense of eroding women's rights to equality, to fairness and safety. And that's my final. thought on it. You don't agree, and that's fine, but that's what it boils down to. Thank you both very much for a very interesting debate. I appreciate it. Thank you, Chris.
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