Pints With Aquinas - 02: Do we need faith to know that God exists?

Episode Date: April 3, 2016

It is written (Romans 1:19), "That which is known of God," namely, what can be known of God by natural reason, "is manifest in them." Our natural knowledge begins from sense. Hence our natural knowledge can go as far as it can be led by sensible things. But our mind cannot be led by sense so far as to see the essence of God; because the sensible effects ofGod do not equal the power of God as their cause. Hence from the knowledge of sensible things the whole power of God cannot be known; nor therefore can His essence be seen. But because they are His effects and depend on their cause, we can be led from them so far as to know of God "whether He exists," and to know of Him what must necessarily belong to Him, as the first cause of all things, exceeding all things caused by Him. Hence we know that His relationship with creatures so far as to be the cause of them all; also that creatures differ from Him, inasmuch as He is not in any way part of what is caused by Him; and that creatures are not removed from Him by reason of any defect on His part, but because He superexceeds them all. ST 1. Q12. A12 SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, Episode 2. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask Thomas the question, Do we need faith to know that God exists, or can we know that just by reason alone. Welcome to Plants with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. In today's show, we want to talk about reason's power to know God, if it even has that power. Some people seem to talk as if faith is what is required and only faith to know whether or not God exists. Some seem to speak as if reason had been so perverted by the fall that we can no longer rely on it.

Other people want to say, no, reason is all we need, and it's the only thing we can rely on to know truths about the world, and we can discover if God exists by reason, and if he does, what he's like. Well, Thomas addresses this question in the first part of the Summa Theologica, question 12. He says this, It is written, in Romans 1.19, that which is known of God is manifest in them. Our natural knowledge begins from sense. Hence, our natural knowledge can go as far as it can be led by sensible things.

But our minds cannot be led by sense so far as to know the essence of God because the sensible effects of God do not equal the power of God as their cause. Hence, from sensible things, the whole power of God cannot be known, nor can his essence be seen. But because they are his effects, and depend on their cause, we can be led from them so far as to know of God whether he exists, and to know of him what must necessarily belong to him as the first cause of all things, exceeding all things created by him. Hence, we know his relationship with creatures so far as to be the cause of them all. Also, we can know that he super exceeds them all. So, we're going to be discussing this beautiful quotation from

Thomas. Essentially, Thomas is saying what the church has defined officially in the first Vatican Council, of course, long after the time of Thomas, and that is, yes, we can know by reason alone that God exists wholly apart from faith. Now, I want to share with you a couple of scripture verses that I find particularly beautiful in defense of what I've just said, what St. Thomas has just said. But before I do, I want to share with you an experience, a number of experiences I had as a teenager. You see, I grew up in a Catholic family, in the sense at least that my mum was Catholic and would take us to Mass every week. in the sense at least that my mum was Catholic and would take us to Mass every week. But by about the age of, oh, I don't know, 12,

I started to have serious doubts as to whether God existed or not. It didn't seem like people at my church were that interested in being there. And when I brought certain questions to my parents or maybe to a priest or some friends, I think maybe some of them did their best to answer them, but most of them just sort of replied, well, it's a mystery, which maybe it was, but I thought, you know, at least give it a shot. That doesn't sound like you've tried very hard. But even in my agnostic years throughout my teenage years, Even in my agnostic years throughout my teenage years, there were certain moments where I just wanted to believe that God existed. It seemed to me, I don't know if obvious is too strong of a word, but it seemed like God probably did exist. And let me share with you maybe one experience that I had.

and let me share with you maybe one experience that I had. My friends and I would get together at each other's houses for drinks. We were beneath the age of 18, so we were drinking illegally. But maybe my friend's parents would be going to Adelaide, the big city, for the night, and so all of us friends would go over to his house and we'd find warm beer somewhere. And, you know, as teenagers do, drink it and pretend to enjoy it because that's the cool thing to do. And, you know,

after the third or fourth beer, when everyone had become a philosopher, some of us would walk out and lay down on the road and look up at the stars. Now, it was a dead-end street, so don't worry, there was no traffic on the street. But we would call these get-togethers glue conversations. And this probably happened, I don't know, three or four different times. We call them glue conversations. Glue stood for God, life, the universe, and everything. And looking back, I'm actually pretty impressed with my teenage self that I would be seriously interested in having these sorts of discussions. None of us were Christian, in the sense that none of us practiced the faith. I don't even know, there was probably some there that weren't even baptized.

But we'd lay on that warm asphalt, and I remember looking up at the stars, and I remember the enormity of that night sky eliciting a wonder in me, a yearning for I know not what. So, I suppose what I'm referring to here isn't exactly what Thomas is talking about. What I'm referring to is what Reformed philosopher Alvin Plantinga has made famous, I suppose, when he talks about the proper basicality, proper basic beliefs. What are they? Well, properly basic beliefs are those that are just based on our immediate experience of the world, and they don't depend upon other beliefs. Yeah. So, if I know you're taking an English class, let's say, it's because, you know, maybe I know somebody who told me that you were doing that. Okay. So

that's a belief I have based on other beliefs, namely that this person is reliable, but there are other beliefs that are more basic, like that the external world exists. Now I can't prove that, can I? Because maybe I'm in the matrix. Maybe I'm two or three pounds of grey and white matter hooked up to a supercomputer that's stimulating my brain in the way that it actually is being stimulated now as I sit here and do this podcast. But this computer is making me think that there is such a thing as podcasts and listeners and this microphone in front of me, but maybe I'm wrong. Yet, I think I'm within my epistemic rights, aren't I, to think that it's true, except that my basic belief is true, unless you can give me a good reason to think it's not. So, I think that's kind of what I was experiencing,

just this sense of God's presence as I looked upon nature. That's not what Thomas is talking about here. What he's talking about is that we can sort of reason our way back to God as the first cause from created things. But there was a sense of that as I lay there on that road. I remember some of us asking this question, you know, what's the meaning of it all? What a wonderful question to ask. And I think anyone who is mildly interesting, that has any sort of interior life, unless it's been snuffed out by, I don't know, constant distractions since you were young, I think late at night or after a couple of beers, we begin asking these sorts of questions. What's it all about? Like, what's the meaning of it all?

Like, how did this all happen? I remember that was a question we asked. How did it all happen? Well, it's sometimes people say things like that and they say there must be an explanation. They say there must be an explanation. And what do they mean when they say that? They don't mean an explanation and that explanation is explained by something else. What they mean is it just seems like there must be an explanation for everything. And that this explanation is not itself explained by something outside itself. Now, they wouldn't use that language, but that's what they mean. And this is sort of what Thomas is getting at.

You'll notice he says three things here in what we read earlier, three things we can know. We can know, one, that God exists. Two, we can know that he is the first cause and ultimate explanation of everything. And three, that he is very mysterious and beyond our comprehension. So, he says here, hence from sensible things, so sensible things are that which we sense, the whole power of God cannot be known, right? So, he's not saying we can know what God is. In fact, we are more right in saying what we don't know about God, what God isn't.

That's the way Thomas approached it, okay? So, we can say God is not limited. approached it, okay? So, we can say God is not limited. We are weak, but He is not like us, so He must be all-powerful, and so on and so forth. But He says, but because they are His effects, these sensible things, and depend on their cause, we can be led from them, these sensible effects, so far as to know of God, whether he exists, that's number one, and to know of him what must necessarily belong to him as the first cause of all things, exceeding all things created by him, two, that's the second. Hence, we know his relationship with creatures so far

as to be the cause of them all, and also that he super exceeds them all, and that's number three, that he's a mystery to us. A couple of quotations from sacred scripture. Maybe you've certainly heard of the first one. You haven't heard of the second, maybe. This is from Romans. This is what Thomas quotes in his actual

response. He says, this is St. Paul here, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. Now listen, St. Paul says, for what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature, namely his eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Very much like St. Thomas, the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. Very much like St. Thomas, the things that have been made, these sensible things can lead us back to this first cause to God. St. Paul continues, for although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became

futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, or birds, or animals, or reptiles. It goes on. That's from Romans chapter 1. But another verse that I find many people aren't familiar with is chapter 13 of the Book of Wisdom. This is a beautiful passage, and it really speaks to what St. Thomas is trying to say. Quote, for all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature, and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists. Listen to that. They were unable from the good things that are seen,

like these stars that I looked up at as I laid on that road, to know him who exists. Nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works? But they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air or the circle of the stars or turbulent waters or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world. This is a beautiful line here, verse 3. 3. If through delight in the beauty of these things men assumed them to be gods, let them know how much better than these is their Lord, for the author of beauty created them. And if men were amazed at their power and working, let them perceive from them how much more powerful is he who formed them. For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their creator. Let's hang on that

line for a moment. Because here I think it seems to speak to both what Thomas Aquinas says and then what I was referring to earlier with this properly basic belief, verse 5 of chapter 13. For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their creator. Now, maybe this isn't true for you. Maybe this doesn't make any sense to you. Maybe you're not a believer in God. But for me, it really does. From the greatness and beauty of created things.

You know, when I'm out in nature, when I see a sunrise, very recently, my son and I were hiking through the woods. We came across a waterfall. So we climbed up the sides of the mountain and walked on the stream there. And it was just beautiful. And just like it says that there was this corresponding perception of their creator. It just, it seemed like there was an explanation and that that explanation was the ultimate explanation. One that wasn't explained by something outside itself. And again, it speaks to Thomas Aquinas where he says, from these things, we can come to an understanding that, okay, God exists. All right. It goes on.

Yet these men are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him. For as they live among his works, they keep searching and they trust in what they see because the things that are seen are beautiful. Yet again, not even they are to be excused for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world. How did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things? So two things. these things. So two things. Number one, the Catholic Church absolutely does teach that we can come to know that God exists wholly apart from faith. And I mentioned this was from the First Vatican Council officially. Let me give you a direct quotation from the First Vatican Council. Quote, even if faith is superior to reason, there can never be a true divergence between faith and reason,

since the same God who reveals the mysteries and bestows the gifts of faith has also placed in the human spirit the light of reason. This God could not deny himself, nor could the truth ever contradict the truth. And so the church here is responding to this era of fideism. Now, there are many ways fideism can be understood. It's really a name that's given to different schools of thought. It's really a name that's given to different schools of thought. Usually when people talk about it, they quote Tertullian, who did say, quote, what indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem, end quote. Athens, of course, representing the Greek philosophers in Jerusalem having to do with the Christian faith.

And so some people do give us that impression that the reason has been so perverted that we can only rely on faith. And of course, this is what the church is responding to here. However, we need faith to know the certain truths about God, certain things we just cannot know by reason alone. It needs to be aided by divine revelation. There is no way that you can come to a knowledge that God is Trinity solely through philosophy. We need the light of faith to illuminate that for us. light of faith to illuminate that for us. Pope Pius XII in Humanae Generis makes the point that, yes, human reason, strictly speaking, is capable of coming to a knowledge of God. But he says we need faith, we need divine revelation. And he says here, for the truths that concern the relationship between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things. And if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation.

The human mind in its turn is hampered in attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and imagination, but also by disordered appetites. Now, listen to this, because I think this is terrific. These disordered appetites, he says, quote, which are the consequence of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not And this is why God enlightens man by his revelation. You know, there are certain truths that we can come to a knowledge of by reason alone. And you know what? If we get them wrong, it's not the end of the world, right? For example, what's the weather going to be like tomorrow?

Well, we can look at this and that and decide, okay, it's going to be this many degrees and it might be raining in the afternoon. Well, if we get that wrong, okay, it's fine. But if we get God wrong, if we get how we ought to live wrong, if we get what is the way to salvation wrong, well, these things have eternal consequences. So, wrapping up today, we can know that God exists by reason alone, and yet we need the light of divine revelation to illuminate our understanding of who God is and who we are and what our response to God ought to be. If you're looking for more sorts of reading on this sort of thing, I'd highly encourage you to read the encyclical by Pope John Paul II, Fetus et Ratio, or in English, Faith and Reason. You can get that for free online. So that's it for this week please uh visit

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