Pints With Aquinas - 06: Why didn't you accept the immaculate conception, St. Thomas?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, Episode 6. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask St. Thomas the question, Is it true that you didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. Before we get into today's discussion, we have a sponsor for today's show, Holy Apostles College and Seminary. Have you heard of them? You should. They offer undergraduate, graduate, and seminary degrees in history, English, philosophy, theology,

Starting point is 00:01:05 and pastoral studies. You can do all of your degree online, 100% online, from a school that is 100% faithful to the magisterium, and from what I understand, very easy to afford. Holy Apostles College and Seminary, check them out. Okay, so today's discussion is going to be centered around the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Now, I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Thomas seems to have denied, or at least not accepted, the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Now, at first, that can sound rather shocking. of Mary. Now, at first, that can sound rather shocking. And because of this, many evangelicals will raise this to Catholic apologists and say, look, not even Aquinas believed this, and yet you're telling me to? Okay, that is a half-true sort of objection. And so, we have to unpack this a little bit. Before we do, we need to define what we are talking about.

Starting point is 00:02:02 What is the Immaculate Conception? Well, the Church has always held that Mary was full of grace. And the understanding since the time of the earliest Christians, the fathers of the Church, has been Mary never sinned. In fact, the Church fathers are unanimous on this. But it wasn't until the year 1854 that Pope Pius IX declared Mary Immaculately Conceived as a dogma of the Church. Now, what does that mean? What does it mean to say a dogma? Well, to say something's a dogma means that it's divinely revealed, okay? So, it's part of the deposit of faith. And therefore, as Catholics, we are not free to reject it. We must assent to it because it is Jesus Christ speaking. And so if we were to reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception,

Starting point is 00:02:54 we'd be rejecting what Jesus Christ has to say. Not cool. Here's what Pope Pius IX said in 1854. The Most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. Now, I think it's fair to say that the reason that people like St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Bernard of Clairvaux didn't accept this teaching was, for one, it wasn't going to be

Starting point is 00:03:35 defined until 600 years after St. Thomas wrote the Sermon, but also because all of the data from Holy Scripture and the Fathers of the Church wasn't clear. Also, our understanding of original sin wasn't clear. In Thomas' day, it was still seen as something as opposed to a lack of something, okay? Like a positive element as opposed to it simply being a lack of grace, okay? Like a positive element, as opposed to it simply being a lack of grace, okay? So, when we say Mary's immaculately conceived, we don't mean she was given something in addition. What we mean is she was preserved from that stain of sin. Hmm? So, while we didn't inherit this divine life because of the sins of our first parents, by a singular grace of Almighty God, that consequence wasn't applied to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Now, let's take a couple of looks at different things Aquinas said here.

Starting point is 00:04:41 So, we're looking at the Summa Theologica, part three, third part of the Summa, question 27, okay? Now, here's where it seems that Thomas denies the Immaculate Conception, okay? He's dealing with the question whether the Blessed Virgin was sanctified before animation. Now, before animation means before she was. And of course, you know, you can't be sanctified before you were, because before you were, you were no thing. So, nothing could happen to you before you were. And yet, in this question, in Objection 3, it deals with her conception. Okay, so here's the objection. It says, it deals with her conception. Okay, so here's the objection. It says,

Starting point is 00:05:30 further, as it has been stated above, no feast is celebrated except of some saint, but some keep the feast of the conception of the Blessed Virgin. Therefore, it seems that in her very conception, she was holy, and hence that she was sanctified before animation. So forget that bit about before animation, but at least that bit about holy at her conception. That's what we believe, isn't it? Well, here's what Thomas says in response to this objection. Although the church of Rome does not celebrate the conception of the Blessed Virgin, yet it tolerates the custom of certain churches that do keep the feast. Wherefore, this is not to be entirely reprobated. Nevertheless, the celebration of this feast does not give us to understand that she was holy in her conception,

Starting point is 00:06:13 but since it is not known when she was sanctified, the feast of her sanctification, rather than the feast of her conception, is kept on the day of her conception. So, it's that line right there that's in variance with what the church would later go on to define, and that's okay. Doctrine develops, yeah? What do I mean by that? When I say doctrine develops, I don't mean that it changes substantially, but I mean over time through thinking and through the light of the Holy Spirit, we're able to come to more fuller understandings of certain mysteries. Let me give you an example. St. Athanasius had a more robust and fleshed out view, if you will, of the Blessed Trinity than any of the Twelve Apostles. I think that's pretty safe to say. And yet, that doesn't mean that the doctrine of the Trinity substantially changed.

Starting point is 00:07:13 It didn't. It developed as we grew in our understanding of it. And the same thing is true here with the Immaculate Conception. So, we have Thomas here saying, look, since it is not known when she was sanctified. Now, does that mean that St. Thomas thinks that maybe she was a sinner after all? Absolutely not. Listen to this here. In that same question, this time in Article 4, Thomas responds to the question, whether by being sanctified in the womb, the Blessed believe that she never committed actual sin.

Starting point is 00:07:52 And this from the womb on, but not knowing exactly when in the womb. So at this point, it kind of feels like we might be nitpicking a little bit. And I don't think Protestants usually understand this. So if a Protestant says to you, Thomas didn't accept the Immaculate Conception, you might say to them, well, what do you think the Immaculate Conception is? And if they say, well, it means that Mary never sinned, you can say, okay, that is exactly what St. Thomas believes. All he wasn't sure of is when, right? Namely, at the moment of her conception. He wasn't sure about that. We now are. But let's listen to what he has to say. Now, this is a really cool answer.

Starting point is 00:08:32 It's about a paragraph long about Mary having never sinned, and he gives us about three different reasons to think Mary never sinned. So, I'll read that to you now. God so prepares and endows those whom He chooses for some particular office that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it. According to 2 Corinthians 3.6, quote, who hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament, end quote. Now, the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His mother. Therefore, there can be no doubt that God, by his grace, made her worthy of that office. According to the words spoken to her by the angel in Luke 1, verse 30-31, "...thou hast found grace with God, behold, thou shalt conceive."

Starting point is 00:09:21 But she would not have been worthy to be the mother of God if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Proverbs 17.6, quote, the glory of children are their fathers, end quote. And consequently, on the other hand, the mother's shame would have reflected on her son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her? And it is written, 2 Corinthians 6.15, what concord has Christ with Baal? Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the divine wisdom, dwelt in her, not only in her soul, but in her womb. And it is written in Wisdom chapter 1 verse 4,

Starting point is 00:10:08 Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither moral nor venial, so that what is written in Canticles 4.7 is fulfilled, quote, thou art all fair, O my love, and there is no spot in thee, end quote, etc. So that's what Thomas had to say. So let's sum it up in a sentence, shall we, in case some of you are confused. Did Thomas believe in the immaculate conception of Mary as it's defined today? It

Starting point is 00:10:43 doesn't look to be the case. So what that means is Thomas wasn't sure when she was sanctified. He didn't teach necessarily that she was sanctified from the first moment of her conception. Okay. Does that mean, therefore, that St. Thomas taught that Mary was a sinner? Answer, absolutely not. So, I hope that clarifies some things for you. Why don't we do two things at this point before we wrap up today's episode? Why don't we look at a couple of things the early church fathers said about Mary, and then

Starting point is 00:11:18 look at a couple of bits of sacred scripture, okay. Now, have you heard of typology? Typology is the study of persons, places, or events in the Old Testament that foreshadow a greater reality in the New Testament. Examples? Well, Jesus is the new Adam, the new man. Just as the first man, we might say, was tempted in a garden and brought forth a desert, the desert of sin. So the new man is tempted in a desert and brings forth a garden of grace. Or we might think just as Moses led the Israelites from out under the tyranny of Pharaoh, Moses led the Israelites from out under the tyranny of Pharaoh. So Jesus Christ liberates his people out from under the tyranny of Satan.

Starting point is 00:12:15 And just as Moses led them through the waters of the Red Sea, so Jesus Christ liberates us by leading us through the waters of baptism. And just as the Israelites had to sojourn through the desert where they were sustained by heavenly manna so that they would have the strength to reach the promised land, so we Christians are called to sojourn in this world sustained by the heavenly manna, the Eucharist, so that we will have the strength to reach the promised land of heaven. Do you see what I mean? This is biblical. This isn't just sort of reflections from people who have nothing else to do. Let's think of 1 Peter chapter 3 makes the contrast between the

Starting point is 00:12:53 waters of the flood and baptism. And what does St. Peter say? Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you. So, we see this in the writings of the early church fathers. Let me give you an example here. Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trifo the Jew, okay, in around AD 155, says this. Quote, Jesus became man by the virgin, so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her. Beautiful, isn't it? We could probably even break that down further and just simply say this.

Starting point is 00:14:03 The first woman, Eve, was approached by an angel, Lucifer. The word Lucifer means angel of light. And she listened to the angel, consented, and brought forth death upon all of her descendants. But the new woman, Mary, said yes to the angel, Gabriel, and consented to to his message and in so doing brought forth life himself. So the early church fathers are unanimous that Mary is without sin. Listen to what St. Augustine says here in Nature and Grace. He says, quote, having accepted the Holy Virgin Mary, and by the way, when I say accepted, I'm not saying accepted, I'm saying accepted as if, as if, as in, come on, Matthew, get it right,

Starting point is 00:14:52 as in she was accepted from sin. She was an exception, okay? He says, having accepted the Holy Virgin Mary concerning whom on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating sins. How do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin? So I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women when they were living here and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer? And of course, what Augustine's driving at is that their answer would have been, no, we were with sin. And yet he says with Mary, he won't even entertain the possibility that she was a sinner. And indeed, she was not.

Starting point is 00:15:47 One final thing. What I'd like to do here is I'd like to contrast two bits of sacred scripture. Saint Luke, when he's talking about the visitation to Elizabeth, he intentionally sets up subtle but significant parallels between Mary's visitation to Elizabeth and David's effort to bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem, narrated in 2 Samuel chapter 6. Okay. What's the point of this? The point is that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Again, we're talking about typology. So, what do I mean? Okay. Well, just as the Ark of the Old Covenant, which was the Holy of Holies, the most sacred thing on the planet, it contained the manna, Aaron's rod, and the tables of the covenant. We learned that through Hebrews 9.4. So,

Starting point is 00:16:46 tables of the covenant. We learned that through Hebrews 9.4. So it's antitype, that is the Virgin Mary, contained within her womb, not the manna, but the bread of life, John 6.35. Not a symbol of the high priest, but the new high priest, Hebrews 4.14. Not the word of God inscribed in stone, but the word of God himself, John 1.14. So, let me share these parallels with you. And if you have a Bible nearby, you might want to open it up. And if you don't, you might want to re-listen to this when you do have a Bible with you. Let's look at 2 Samuel 6 and then Luke's account of the visitation in chapter 1. So, we read in 2 Samuel, David, quote, arose and went into the Judean hill country to retrieve the ark. In the visitation, we read, Mary, quote, arose and went into where? She went to the same hill country. It's just a walk, It's just a walk, a day's walk apart to visit Elizabeth.

Starting point is 00:17:53 Now, dressed in a priestly garment, David leapt before the ark. And we read that John the Baptist, who was in Elizabeth's womb, he was of priestly lineage, leapt in her womb at the presence of Mary. David asks, how can the ark of the Lord come to me in 2 Samuel 6, 9? And Elizabeth asks, why is this granted me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke 1, 43. David brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting. And we read that Elizabeth exclaimed with a loud cry in the presence of the Virgin Mary. The Ark remained in the house of Obed-Edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for how long? Three months. It says the house of Obed-Edom was blessed by the presence of the Ark, and Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times at the arrival of Mary.

Starting point is 00:18:46 Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. And just as God had very specific instructions on how the Ark of the Covenant was to be made, acacia wood, surrounded by gold inside and out, he did this because it was worthy, right? So that it might be worthy to hold these sacred objects. Same thing is true of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She was conceived without sin, not because of her own merit, but because of Christ's, because of God making her holy

Starting point is 00:19:24 in order to be a worthy instrument to hold her son. Now, sometimes people will say, well, doesn't she say in the Canticle of Mary, you know, she says, God, my Savior, you know. So doesn't that mean she needed a Savior? Yeah, yeah, it does actually. Well, if she needed a Savior, then she must have sinned. No, no, no, no, it doesn't. Why? Well, there are two ways in which we can say one is saved, preventatively and medicinally. So, all of us are saved medicinally, that is we've sinned,

Starting point is 00:19:58 and then the salvation comes to restore us of that sin. But we could also be saved preventatively, just like Mary was. And here is an analogy that others have used. Suppose a man walks through a forest and falls into a pit that he cannot get out of. Someone then extends a hand or a stick or something. He holds on and the man is removed from the pit. That man was saved in a medicinal manner. But he could have been saved in a preventative way. Suppose the man's walking through the forest and someone comes out and prevents him from falling into the pit. Both the man in the pit and the man who did not yet fall into the pit can rightly say they were saved. And so that's why Mary can say, God, my Savior, because God indeed is hers and our Savior. Why don't we conclude by praying the Hail Mary together, you and me, wherever you're at.

Starting point is 00:20:52 Maybe you're washing the dishes. Maybe you're driving in the car. Maybe you're laying in bed. I don't know what you're doing, but why don't you pray with me to our blessed Virgin. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are you among women. Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Starting point is 00:21:14 Amen. So that does it for this week. Thank you for listening. Please rate the show on iTunes. That would be a great help. Please visit me at mattfradd.com. That's my website. And if you have any questions, shoot me a message over Twitter. That's probably the best way to get

Starting point is 00:21:29 a hold of me. My Twitter handle is at Matt Fradd. God bless you.

Pints With Aquinas - 06: Why didn't you accept the immaculate conception, St. Thomas?

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