Pints With Aquinas - 103: From Islam to Christ, with Derya Little

Episode Date: April 24, 2018

Get Derya's book, From Islam to Christ here. Here's the excerpt from the Summa Contra Gentiles that I read: [Muhammad] seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly SCG 1, 6, 4. SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we're going to talk about Islam. And in particular, I'm going to be joined around the bar table by Daria Little, who just wrote an amazing book called From Islam to Christ. It's going to be fantastic. It is a fantastic conversation. I know that because we just did it. So, here we go. Enjoy the show. All right. G'day, g'day, g'day. Good to have you with us here at Pints with Aquinas,

the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Today we'll be talking about Islam. I'm going to be chatting with Daria Little about her new book, From Islam to Christ, One Woman's Path Through the Riddles of God. I have to be honest, I didn't read this book before interviewing her, but after having interviewed her, I'm definitely going to get this book. Her story is incredible. She goes from being Muslim to an atheist to a Protestant to a Catholic. And her story is amazing. We've done an episode here on Pints with Aquinas before, episode 21. And I shared with you there what Thomas Aquinas had to say about the origins of Islam. I want to share that with you again before we

bring Daria on because it's pretty brutal. It's like he holds no punches. He's in no way politically correct about Islam. So, if you're evangelizing a Muslim, do not lead with this at all. Maybe lead with Daria's book. But okay, here's what Aquinas says in the, let's see here, the Supercontra Gentiles. He says, Muhammad seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free reign to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as

could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration. For a visible action that can only be divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms, which is a sign not lacking even to robbers and tyrants, right? So by the power of arms, he's talking about like his ability to fight and overcome. But again, as he's saying, like, is that supposed to be a sign i mean tyrants and robbers also have

this aquinas says what is more no wise men men trained in things divine and human believed in him from the beginning those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers utterly ignorant of all divine teaching through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments,

lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly." End quote. Whoa, like that is intense. So, if we could sum up, like if we could like translate into modern English, he'd be something like this, like that is intense. So if we could sum up, like if we could like translate into modern English, he'd be something like this. Like, he'd be like, Muhammad was just this dude who was super violent. He knew nothing about the New and Old Testament. You know, he would say, look, God sent me because I'm like beating people up and stuff. And then he would just convince idiots to become Muslims.

And then him and those idiots would go around forcing other people to be Muslims. It's no wonder the guy didn't even let people read the Bible. I mean, if they did, they'd realize that this whole thing was a joke. Those who believe in what Muhammad said are idiots. Now, that is not me exaggerating. Like, that's what he said, right? He just said all that stuff, but in a nicer way. We should never leave with that, right? He just said all that stuff, but in a nicer way. We should never leave with that, right? Because we should always distinguish between the difference of one's personal beliefs and that particular person. Like, you can criticize a worldview as Thomas does, but that's very different to criticizing

a person for believing in it. If somebody's raised in a particular home and as Daria was and taught Islam, you obviously don't criticize her in the way that you would criticize the belief system. You always have to lead with charity and not lead with a heavy hammer here, you know, sort of thing, heavy hand. So anyway, this is a fascinating discussion. You're going to really like it. And towards the end, I'm going to ask her some questions on how we can better evangelize our Muslim neighbors. And be sure

to check out her book. I'll throw it up in the show notes, From Islam to Christ, One Woman's Path Through the Riddles of God. Enjoy the show. All right. G'day. How are you doing? Good, Matt. How are you? Good. So, tell us how to say your name one more time. Okay. It's painful, so don't worry if you can't say it right. So, it's Daria. Daria. Now, how do people who sound like me say that name? Because it feels really weird if I was like, hey, what's going on?

Daria. So, how would I say it? Okay. I think it's the closest version in English is that flower, D-A-R-I-A. Okay. Okay. So, yeah. How about you just agree to forgive me if I butcher your beautiful sounding

name? Because when you say it, it sounds really lovely. When I say it, not so much. You know, I tell people even my husband can't say it right. So, yes, all is forgiven. Okay. Thanks so much. Well, it's so lovely to have you on the show today. This is really the first time we've chatted. I mean, we touched base last week to organize this interview, but whenever I do these interviews, I love to kind of not know much about the person I'm chatting with or the topic we're going to be discussing so that it can be fresh. And so, I'm really excited about this. One thing I'm super sad about is that my coffee pot isn't working, so I can't be drinking coffee right now. Life is hard. Offer it up.

That's right. I'll definitely do that. Well, hey, before we begin, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know we're going to get into all the details soon, but tell us a little bit about yourself and about this new book of yours that Ignatius published. Okay. As you said, we'll get into more details here in a bit, but I grew up in Turkey and I converted to Christianity through a few Protestant missionaries in Turkey. And a few years later, I became Catholic. And while I was getting my PhD in England, I met my husband, who is an American. So now I live in America. And while I was raising my kids, I realized that not many Americans quite understand about Islam and Muslim cultures. And I decided to write my

conversion story, hoping that it would be helpful in that regard. So here I am. It's a beautiful front cover, by the way. As an author myself, I'm always super concerned that the cover the publisher will choose will be ugly. But thankfully, it wasn't in my case with Ignatius, and it certainly isn't with yours. It's really beautiful. Have you been happy with the reception of the book? Yes, yes. It has been wonderful. I haven't gotten any death threats, which is always a positive thing. Good, yeah.

Me neither. A little different, yeah. People have been very excited. And they say they learned a lot about growing up in a Muslim country. I think that's the biggest thing. I think a lot of people think it's just another religion. But it's very different. Especially the Muslim culture is very different.

So they said people learned, like it gave them an insider's view. So it's been wonderful. I've been very happy and blessed. So, when you grew up, were your parents practicing Muslims? Yes, mostly. I don't know how familiar you are with Turkish history, but Turkey is a little different. Yes, I mean, you know, it's a little far, about 5,000. I'd love to learn.

Tell me about it. Okay, so basically the Turkish Republic is actually the continuation of the Ottoman Empire, not that we would say it very often for political reasons. So there was the Ottoman Empire, and then it collapsed into a bunch of nation states, and Turkish Republic was the last one. So it was the Turkish Republic who abolished the last caliph. So the last caliph was the Ottoman Sultan. So that's back in 1920s.

So the founder of Turkey, Ataturk, I don't think he was a Muslim. He was an Ottoman general, but he wanted to westernize Turkey. And he thought Turkey was backwards because of Islam and to be modern, westernized, he had to implement a lot of reforms. And most of them were forceful, like under pain of death, basically. So he introduced, for instance, like we use the Latin alphabet, whereas we used to use Arabic alphabet, even though Turkish is a completely different language than Arabic. Arabic. So, and he banned fez, you know, the headgear for the

Ottomans, for men. Or he banned the hijab, so women were not allowed to cover themselves in the Muslim attire. But what happened in the following is they had to keep Islam at bay

with a strong military. because islam is a political religion right so it always wants to come back um so anyway but in the end turkey kind of divided like it's kind of it's stuck between east and west so where i grew up is actually um the region of galatia like the you know the book of Galatians, and actually my hometown around my hometown is recorded in the book of Acts. Wow. Yes. It's recorded as Iconia, but we call it Konya.

That is so cool. I'm from Port Pirie, South Australia, which doesn't sound nearly as cool as your history in that place. St. Paul probably didn't make it there. No, no, unfortunately. Actually, Paul and Barnabas in Book of Acts, Chapter 14, they make it to Iconium, but nobody listens to them. Then they get kicked out. And I'm like, yeah, not much changed since their time unfortunately so um so anyway so we have all this history so it's very kind of in the in it was in the middle

so that's how I grew up like I would I went to a secular school with where we learned of laicism like the French version of secularism and then then in the summers, I would go to the mosque and learn how to read the Quran in Arabic. Like, as I said, I don't speak Arabic, so it's more like enunciate the Quran in Arabic because that's the unacceptable form. Did you grow up praying and being taught about Muhammad and the Quran and why it is you should believe these things? Were your parents devout? I wouldn't say they were devout.

Like, my mother was more devout, but my father never really liked fasting and all that religious stuff. But they were definitely Muslim. It's not like you're not allowed to be anything else. And it wasn't this Muslim. allowed to be anything else. And it wasn't this Muslim, like under this current administration, it got really religious and it's moving towards Islam more and more. But when I grew up in the 80s, like you weren't supposed to be too Muslim, but you weren't supposed to be anything else either. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. It was part of the national identity, like to be a Turk you had to be Muslim.

Analogously, it's not exactly the same, obviously. But sort of like when you think of the Northeast in the United States, especially in, like, Irish areas, it's almost like, don't be too Catholic. Obviously, but, you know, on St. Paddy's Day, you know, go to Mass. Right. Maybe Ash Wednesday, but don't get carried away. No, yeah, don't go every week, you know. No, definitely not. Yes, yes. No, yeah, don't go every week, you know, definitely not. Yes, yes, so it's like that.

So they weren't very devout, but they wanted me to learn. They wanted me to be more devout. Like none of them, neither of my parents read the Quran, but both me and my brother, we were sent to the mosque to be taught by the imam. So at a younger age, this is, you know, as soon as I learned how to read in Turkish, we started to go and learn. And, you know, we memorized all the Arabic prayers because, again,

that's the only acceptable language because the Quran was given in Arabic. So, that was my childhood. I mean, it was other than that. We played outside, you know, we played dodgeball, you know, Turkish version, you know. Normal life. So, as you grew older, I mean, did played dodgeball, you know, Turkish version, you know. Normal life. So, as you grew older, I mean, did you have questions about your faith, just like I had questions about my Christian faith? Did you grow up wondering how, you know, different things fit into it and whether or not it was true?

Did you ever have doubts as a young kid and those sorts of things? No. In here, I would like to plug in saint thomas since uh you know fitting as he would say uh okay so um uh you know i read everything saint thomas wrote about islam but i think the most important thing for listeners to understand how um islam functions within the Muslim mind is his talk about survival versus filial fear. And so Islam says Allah is the master and you're the slave and you're not supposed to doubt at all. Like in your head, that thought, that question, the doubt, as soon as it comes, you have to quash it because then you will be punished eternally. Like I talk about at the beginning of my book, you know, you're not supposed to imagine God, right?

Like try to picture Him. So, once in a while in my childhood mind, I would try to picture Him and then I would be so scared. So, I'm like five, six, because I would be so scared because you're not supposed to do that, you know? It's funny, whenever somebody tells you not to do something, it's always a, it's like saying, don't think of a pink elephant right now. It's so hard not to do that, you know? Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can't think of a pink elephant right now. It's so hard not to do that, you know? Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can't help it, especially as a child. And I would be so scared for days waiting to be struck down.

I mean, to be fair, there are some Christians who grew up with a similar view of God, don't you think? You know, maybe they were told not to blaspheme or not to do certain things that maybe they really had this understanding that God was going to strike them down. So, I mean, but then are you saying in Islam, though, that's closer to what Islam actually teaches as opposed to what Catholicism teaches? Yes, definitely. Because this is what I try to explain with the fear, like with the survival fear, it's kind of the beginning, you know, with the children, you know, we have little kids, you know, seven and under. They first need to have that relationship with us that, you know, we have power over them, like physical and spiritual. So, but from that servile fear, you need to move towards filial fear, you know. How would you define that?

Like when they're little, you know, they don't understand that we want their good, but they have to obey us because we have, you know, we could punish them, right? So they fear punishment. That's why they obey. So that's the fear. love us, get closer to us, I'm hoping, when they're teenagers, it will turn into filial fear, that they will be afraid to disappoint us, not the fear of punishment. Out of love. They respect you, they know you want their good, and therefore they would not want to do something that would be disappointing to you.

Yes. So, it's a complete different, like, you know, even St. Thomas talks about this, like, you can start with servile fear, but it shouldn't stay there. It should evolve into the filial fear as, you know, you increase in love and charity towards God. And servile fear should be, you know, in a perfect world, you shouldn't have any servile fear towards God. But is your point, though, in Islam, it's meant to be servile fear? Yes. And actually, the mere suggestion of that you have any kind of filial relationship with God, that's blasphemy, because then you're pulling him down to your level in the same way that incarnation is blasphemy, because then you're suggesting that God, you pull down God from His majesty or level so He's dirty and unworthy like you are.

Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. So, whenever you would have these doubts about Allah or whenever you would accidentally imagine Him, you would feel very bad about it. Did it bring you any joy being a Muslim and praying and reading the Quran? Yes, because I didn't know anything any different. And I think as children, we all have that desire for the transcendent. And yes, I mean, I was happy. I did not question. I was perfectly happy. I read the Quran because that's what I was taught. And I was part of a

community, you know, the neighborhood kids, we all went to the, you know, mosque together. I was part of something bigger than myself. Like, again, we all crave that. And as I said, I didn't know any difference. So I never questioned it. So that is until my parents got a divorce when I was around 11 years old. Okay. So, what happened then? So, divorce back then was very uncommon. It's still uncommon in Turkey, but I didn't know anybody else who was divorced. And what happened is my father always cheated on my mother.

And finally, he wanted another wife. I mean, it's illegal to have two wives in Turkey illegally. But what happens is they have kind of a mistress, you know, on the side. Like they take the second wife with their religious ceremony because it's allowed in Islam, but not in Turkish legal law. So anyway, my mother didn't want to do this. I mean, she's had enough by then. I mean, looking back, I don't think they really had a happy marriage ever,

but I didn't understand it as a kid. But what I understood at that age that I wasn't good enough to stick around for. The world revolves around you as a kid you don't understand that these are two grown-ups it's um it kind of collapsed my whole um I don't know like self-worth in a way um so I was like okay um so you lie to me about your love because clearly you don't love me enough to stay and then what else did you lie to me about? So, and I think it happens in Christian families too. I'm sure it does. Yeah. And that's when you began to question Islam?

Yes. And one of the first things I did, I wanted to turn to like find solace in prayer and reading the Quran. I kind of, it was kind of funny as i moved away i tried to come back like i um i tried to read the quran more pray more and i felt like everything every prayer hit a wall like how how does one pray as a muslim i know you have set periods of time in which you are meant to pray but are there set prayers that a Muslim prays? Do you just speak from the heart sometimes? You're allowed to speak from the heart, which is called dua. And you can, so there are set prayers. You know, there's those five prayers a day at set times.

And they're more like, it's very ritualistic, you know. The movements are set. What kind of prayer you say are said. So, there is this big prayer. It's like our father in a way. I find that very beautiful. I have a lot of respect for Muslims who remain faithful to praying five times a day like that and who fast. I had a Muslim driver back when I lived in San Diego who would take me to the airport. And, you know, he would tell me when he was fasting.

And, you know, I had a lot of respect for it because, you know, you look at Christians who complain about fasting all the time and can't seem to find a way to pray the rosary or some other prayer in a particular day, you know. I know. But you know what? If it's true, what's five times, you know? I know, but you know what? If it's true, what's five times, you know? I mean, the monks and the nuns, they play the liturgy of the hours. That's a lot of work and a lot of reading, but... That's true, but regarding lay people, I mean, these are lay Muslims, right? Yes, and I mean, it's like, we should be like them, as you're right. Like, you know, we should learn from them that, look, they believe this is so true, that it's such a big part of their lives.

And we complain about having to go to an extra mass if there's a holiday of obligation. What would you do for these five times during the day? I'm just interested. Would you set your alarm? Would you hear the call for prayer bellowing from public speakers? How did you know when it was time to pray? Both. I mean, I don't think, like, from pretty much every house, call to prayer is heard. You know, if you live close to a mosque, it will make you jump out of

the bed. But usually, you know, you set your clock because, like, you'll pray the first one with the rising sun and um and and you need to be ready before the call to prayer because there's like there's a ritual um ablution like you need to like you know cleanse yourself you know you wash your hands your feet which that's another ritual um and then it's oh i i imagine i'm sure how you, you think of this when I say things like, I find that very beautiful and I can see why a lot of men in the West are attracted to Islam when they hear about this, because it is very, I think men like regiment, they like ritual, they like, uh, and when I hear about that, I just think, gosh, that is so beautiful. I know we're going to get to the not so beautiful side of Islam soon, but... No, no, no. But I think part of it, you see,

when you read Quran and Muhammad's life, you see a lot of the things I think Muhammad knew or heard about Jewish customs and Christian customs. And like the Jews had ritual ablutions before, And like the Jews had ritual ablutions before, you know, they entered the temple. So, and it is beautiful because it reminds you that, you know, that, you know, this world isn't necessarily clean in the spiritual sense. So, and anyway, so you would get ready. And for women, of course, you need to cover your hair and you need to cover um up until um your wrists and your ankles and then you have to have your prayer rug and turn to uh kaba in mecca that's like cube black cube looking contraption i don't know if you're you're familiar with and then you you would pray and some are longer some are shorter um during the day but

it's really easy to memorize really i mean it's it's it's not bad give us give us a couple of lines of one of the prayers if you don't mind oh it's been so long i'm putting you on the spot yes yes yes you are uh but um one of the prayers like i was telling you is like our father there's a long one it's um it's called el fatih long one, it's called Al-Fatiha. And then there's also like the first surah in the Quran. And shorter prayers like Hail Mary, which I find it very interesting, is like Spanaka, Allahumma. Of course, my Arabic pronunciation is not very, very good. But it's interesting because now, when I was a little girl, I don't know if you do this. When I was a little girl, when we passed the cemetery, we would say one El Fatiha and three Spanica.

Very interesting. It's like one holy, you know, our father and three Hail Marys. And now, after all these years, interestingly enough, when we pass a cemetery, we still say, you know, pray for the souls of the dead. So, it's like, does it make sense? There's like all these little corresponding aspects. Am I right? Does the first surah, does that begin something to the effect of, blessed be God, the most merciful and compassionate? Is that a repeating phrase?

merciful and compassionate? Is that a repeating phrase? So how could you speak of Allah as a slave master when the Quran says things like this? The most merciful, the most compassionate. Okay, so Allah is like, his nature is different than God, okay? I'm going to say Allah for, you know, Allah and God for our God. Yes, because I think it's important to separate. So, he's not the God in the way that we understand God, like

pure. I was listening to your podcast with Father Chris earlier, like about simplicity, that, you know, you cannot separate God's love from himself because that's who he is. So Allah doesn't have those aspects, but he's merciful and he is the perfect master. There's a perfect master. He wants you to be happy in heaven. I see. So if he wants you to be happy in heaven, then what is the most merciful thing for him to do? It's for you to follow him no matter what.

Does it take for him to punish you maybe? Or like, you know, for you to kill others maybe? That's okay. I see. Does it make sense for him to, because he's trying to bring you to heaven. I see. And that's the most merciful thing he can do for you. You may not understand

because he's a master. So, there is no relationship. I mean, this might be an unfair way to characterize Allah, at least from the point of view of some Muslims, but is it sort of, do you see it sort of like an abusive, okay, this might not be right at all, so forgive me, but is it sort of like an abusive father who, you know, treats you poorly, makes you do things you don't want to do, but he keeps reminding you that this is for your own good? Yes. I mean, yeah, I mean, I hate to think it that way, but yes, I mean, this, the master-slave and an abusive father's relationship is that way, and you never question, you never try to understand because he tells you you're so inferior. And we are in the end.

How much of God can we possibly understand? I think the biggest difference is that there is no true love and connection and a relationship. And you never quite feel the the love you only feel um mercy okay does it make sense so yeah so let's go back to after your parents divorce when you began to try to pray try to read the quran for some solace uh then what happened how did you end up losing your muslim faith or how did what happened next so did you end up losing your Muslim faith or what happened next? So as I started questioning, I was like, okay, is this also true? This religion that they kept telling me that it was true, is this true? So these questions are popping in my head, then at the same time I'm trying to pray and it doesn't. I feel like there is no reciprocation.

So that made me question more and more. And for the first time in my life, you learn about Muslim history of Islam, Muhammad's life, but he's always portrayed as the perfect human, like Kamil Insan. Like somebody, he was in islam it's he it's taught that he was sinless so somebody we need to emulate follow behave you know be like so um anyway all the good things about him is taught and his wives and it's like but you never question and and all the uh wars he waged, they were like defensive wars or, you know, that kind of history we were taught. But for the first time, after my parents' divorce, when I felt lost, I started to read, is this true? And once that flicker of doubt enters in a Muslim's mind, this is why I think it's so important to understand that servile fear. Like I think that was when it broke its hold on me.

When I started questioning, then you realize Muhammad is not somebody that I wanted to emulate because he was no different. Like when you read his life, I mean, he was after power, wealth, women. His life, I mean, he was after power, wealth, women. I mean, you know, you talk about in your podcast back in the day on Islam, I mean, St. Thomas is right. It's harsh. As you say, don't enter that conversation with that passage from St. Thomas. Don't leave with that.

Yes, but it's true. It's very carnal. How do you respond to those who say, yeah, but look at the Old Testament. That's filled with carnal events of people who are supposedly God's messengers doing awful things. There are, you know, God commanding the destruction of the Canaanites. And so, really, there's no real difference. So, what you're getting upset about in regard to Muhammad and the wars he waged, you should be equally upset about when it comes to Judaism and even some of the passages in the New Testament. How do you respond

to that? Good question. But it's different. Like, Old Testament is mostly a kind of recording the history of what man has, what Israelites doesn't it's not necessarily an endorsement so and then i've heard this said would you say that the it's not binding upon us in the way that the new testament is today but for muslims their um uh the quran is binding like the New Testament is binding. That is to say, this isn't an out-of-date teaching that applied only to people long ago. This is just like the New Testament applies to us here and now, but the Old Testament doesn't necessarily.

So, the Quran applies to the Muslim here and now. Is that the main problem? Yes. Again, but even in the New it's it's historical in a way because okay uh the muslims believe that quran is the word of god and i think this is my personal opinion uh because it's mentioned so many times that the quran is the word of God. And even in the Quran, it says it existed from eternity with Allah in the highest level of heaven. So I think they confuse like the word of God as like logos, like at the beginning of John,

like what we say, you know, Christ, the second person is the word of God. Ah, interesting. Does it make sense? And I don't think Muhammad could quite understood that.

Let's talk about that if you don't mind. I mean, I'm not sure what to do. Maybe we should talk about this first and then talk about the Protestant missionaries that you met. But Muhammad gets a lot of things wrong and he misunderstands what Christianity teaches about the Trinity, the Virgin Mary. He's clearly picking up on some apocryphal gospels. Do you want to talk about that for a second?

Yes. I mean, when you read the Quran, which is not an easy book to read, but you can tell that he heard all these Old Testament stories and the life of Christ, but it's not complete. Like every story is missing an element, or you can read pieces from apocryphal gospels, like Jesus spoke when he was an infant and made the clay birds come alive. So I think because he was a tradesman, he heard, he had contact with a lot of Jews and Christians. And I think there were a lot of Nestorians in that area. Actually, I heard a theory that his first wife was probably a Nestorian Christian. I don't know, obviously, obviously, Khadija.

So he collected all these, and he kind of used it as a base for what he wants to teach. So when you read the Quran, you see all these stories, but they're not just quite right. So he, for instance, when I was growing up, I was taught that Christians believed in three gods, Father, Son, and Mother, Mary. Like God, Jesus, and Mary. Of course, obviously, this is not what we believe. And I don't think he understood what Trinity is. And that's actually the doctrine of Trinity is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for Muslims now because they think we are talking about three gods. I mean, you know, so that's one of the things.

And about Quran, we were talking about the word of God. So when he hears this word of God being talked about, excuse me, logos, he doesn't understand that this is Christ and he's God himself as well. So he's thinking it means the written word, which ended up being the Quran. Yes. And it's recorded in the Quran and it's like it existed from eternity with the father in heaven. I mean, doesn't that sound like the logo? So that's why Quran cannot be questioned.

I see. Because it would be like, it's like questioning Christ as a Christian. Yes, it's like, right, it's dictated to him. Like we say. Sure. And so, like with the New Testament, we would say, well, it's the word of God written in the language of men. You know, it's not like God.

Yeah, it's not like God was controlling Matthew, Matthew's hand. Right. He was writing with his own knowledge, his own intellect, his own understanding of things. Whereas the Quran, it's not that way. This is directly given by Almighty God. Yes, and that's why there will never be a textual analysis of Quran. Most of the times, there isn't even any context it jumps from one place to one place like we all approach to Quran with this like western Christian

idea uh but we it cannot be I mean as a text it's not it cannot be you know used that way even though there are attempts and you you know, they are worthy. But because it's directly dictated from God, Muslims are very careful, especially when non-Muslims talk about the Quran. It's kind of, what do you know? You're an infidel. Right. And even if you've read the Quran, as I have, I haven't read it in Arabic, and therefore I am prone to misunderstand it. I haven't read it in Arabic, and therefore I am prone to misunderstand it. Yes. Like, the translation is not Quran.

Right. Once it's translated to a different language, because I only read it in Turkish and in English, that's not the Quran anymore because something major is lost in the translation. Okay. Well, hey, let's talk about how you met these Protestant missionaries and what that was like. Okay. Well, hey, let's talk about how you met these Protestant missionaries and what that was like. Okay. So, anyway, so I read about Muhammad and I decided I cannot believe Islam anymore. I cannot follow this man. And I slowly drifted towards atheism because everything I knew about Christianity or another religion was in the eyes of Islam. Was that very painful for you, giving up your faith?

Perhaps, you know, questioning whether or not you'd be sent to hell if you got this wrong? I mean, what was that like for you, leaving Islam intellectually? It was very eye-opening. I don't want to use this word, but I was very disgusted once I faced Muhammad, especially as a woman. I couldn't believe that this is what I believed all those years. In a way, it was kind of I came out of the matrix or something. I lived in this false world. That's how I felt.

You know what? I felt very disconnected. I think that's one of the things atheism does to our world. I suddenly lost all connection to the fellow men around me. And I found some other atheists that, you know, not that many, you know, where I lived, but there were a few others. That was my biggest thing. Like, I wasn't afraid of hell, but I felt like I lost all, I felt very adrift, you know, very kind of lost. Yeah, okay. That makes sense.

Yeah, and then, of course, once all my moral compass was gone, then I kind of started drinking and, you know, all that stuff. So that's how I, by the time I met the Protestant missionaries when I was 19, I was a full-blown atheist. met the Protestant missionaries when I was 19. I was a full-blown atheist, and I was in college, and I needed money because I didn't have any relationship with my parents. How did they receive your apostatizing? How did they take that? My parents, and I talk about this in the book, it's not very happy. They say it starts very sad, but it gets better. So, if you read the read the book don't worry it has a happy ending but um with my uh my father left so we didn't have any connection whatsoever with him and my mother uh being a like a divorcee it wasn't easy

because now he she was cast aside right it's a Muslim culture in there. Um, so she became very intro, like, you know, I think she was depressed, you know, she didn't really care as long as we didn't make like shame upon the family. She really couldn't care less what we did. So we didn't have any, you know, mother daughter relationship. So, um, and then, um, so, so I was 80s all those years. And then this Protestant missionary, but I didn't know she was a missionary. This is a big deal. And again, I talk about this, all this anti-Christian history, crusades and evil missionaries and such.

So it's like this American woman looking for somebody who will teach her Turkish. So anyway, I show up at her door, and there's this cross-stitch verse right across her entrance. It should tell you about this lady. And it's the verse from Book of Acts 4.12. It says, and there's salvation in no one else. Wow. For there's no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. I'm like, oh, she's a Christian.

Now, how were Christians accepted in Turkey at the time? Was that an acceptable thing to put across your door or would have that upset some people? I tell you what, it was surprising that I knew what it was because I had kind of read the New Testament, not quite knowing it. Most people wouldn't know what it was. Okay. Because, you know, we just don't, most Turks don't even read their own religion, let alone read the New Testament. So it was surprising that I knew. And I felt so sorry for this lady, you know, because I was so enlightened.

I knew everything by the age of 19. So I wanted to tell her the truth about her religion. Little did I know, she grew up atheist. Wow. And she converted later. She's like hard, she was hardcore Calvinist, you know, five point. And she went to a really good university here, but she gave up, her and her husband gave up all of those to preach the gospel in Turkey. And thank God that they did. And for three years, this lady, she's very intellectual

and she's stubborn. She knows her stuff. And for three years, we butted heads. And I would get so mad because like my atheism wasn't really, I kind of drifted into it. As I said, it wasn't like really intellectual. But what happened at the end of three years that she described, she talked about a different kind of God. Not Allah, because Allah was capricious.

And for instance, like the concept in Islam, there's no concept of original sin. A sin is a sin because Allah says so. Not because it's against our nature, against our good. Does it make sense? It makes complete sense. So you don't really need Christ in Islam. Because Allah says, well, all is forgiven. Because, I mean, God cannot look up.

He's so pure. He's good. He cannot look up on sin. That's why we have purgatory. We can't just show up with all that stain on our soul. But the way this God she talked about wasn't incompatible with science so of course i was very into science you know i read about space i read science fiction you know all the geeky nerdy stuff and um like one of the things that really bothered me as an atheist like i didn't understand why um the physics we expected physics to have the

same rules in this galaxy and in the next one when there was nothing in between that connected them like that suggested that there was something in common what was common you know like that you know but i pushed all those stuff aside but But this God, Therese, I called her in my book, she talked about was compatible with the science I spoke of. Like she made me realize that science is a way to understand God rather than like, you know, being opposed to God, like as an alternative to God. like, you know, being opposed to God, like as an alternative to God. So, she taught me that God was pure, good, and reasonable. So, that was the biggest thing, but it wasn't a, of course, I didn't suddenly become a Christian. Took you three years at least to begin to concede some things, huh?

Yes, and I think, you know, we don't want to give in.cede some things, huh? Yes. And I think, you know, we don't want to give in. We don't want to be wrong. I mean, who wants to be wrong? And it took a long time. And by this time, I had built my whole life around atheism. Like, you know, I was engaged. My fiance was an atheist.

All my friends were atheists, you know. Like, I just, we mocked God and all the people who believed in God. So, you know, a lot of it became like my identity, not just an intellectual exercise, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So, how, what was it then? Was it an experience? Was it an intellectual quest and your answers were satisfied? How did you begin to accept Christ? Your answers were satisfied. How did you begin to accept Christ? So what happened is I said, okay, even if there is God, which is a big if,

because if there is God, this is really important. Like I tell people I was an honest atheist. Like I was never an agnostic. So if there is a God, then we have to do something to be with him, appease him or, you know, whatever we can. But I was like, okay, if there is a God, why is there so much evil in the world? Of course, you know, you've heard this argument probably little too often. But so, as it happens, all the Americans in my life, I was going to this university and I was taking this advanced English class, and there was a Buddhist American who was not very friendly to Christianity at all. So he assigned us this chapter from Brother Karamazov, the Grand Inquisitor.

There's a whole chapter in my book, so I go into detail. But in case you're not familiar with it, it's Christ comes earth um during the spanish inquisition um so dostoevsky does not like catholics of course so the bad guy is you know the catholic uh cardinal and um it's not the second coming christ is just kind of hanging out and he you know raises this girl from dead and miracles and such and everybody recognizes him for who he is. So the grand inquisitor, he comes over, he realizes that people are following him and he tells his people to arrest Christ and he puts them in a cell. And at night he goes to talk to Christ and he says, he said, when you were tempted in

the desert by the devil, you should have accepted all the things he had offered. You wanted to give freedom instead of security because you wanted them to love you, us, you know, the people to love you freely. But all they want is security. They want to be safe and cozy, you know. And you wanted to give them heavenly bread and come to love you with their freedom, free will. But all they want is earthly bread.

And you didn't want to force them. You wanted them to believe you in faith. But they don't understand that. You overestimated them. Like they want, since you left, you're trying to clean up your mess. And here we are. And he says, just go back and don't come back. This is what the cardinal says to Christ. And Christ, of course, he said everything he was going to say. So he doesn't say a word. He gets up and kisses the cardinal on the lips

and he leaves. So this is a story told by the atheist brother yes i went to aliosha to the one that's becoming a monk so um so it's like middle of the night this is an old english translation right so it's not and it's so hard for me so i have this giant dictionary going through yeah reading reading dostoevsky having not English as your first language, even a translation of it is going to be difficult. Yes, it was painful, but it's like in the morning I had too many cups of tea and suddenly I understood sin.

I mean, you know, just this light bulb went off in my head. Like I said, I realized that the world was evil because of sin, not because of God, because he gave us free will. Again, this is not a concept in Islam. So it's like this is my first true encounter with my own sinfulness, that I am part of the problem as well. You know, it's like sin has this like sin has this rippling effect. I sin and it affects 10 people. And then it goes forward and the world is evil because of sin, because we sin. So it's like in the middle of the night, this came to me. And that was a really big turning point because then I realized that if I am sinful,

that means I cannot save myself. Then somebody else has to come down into the pit, so to speak, to save me, get me out of this misery because I can't climb out by myself. So that was one thing. But then all these questions about, you know, if I become a Christian, again, I talked about Turkey. So you can't be too Muslim, but you can't be anything else either. And I was going to this really good university. All my classmates got really good jobs in government, you know, high positions. I could never get a government clearance. And my fiancés and 80s

all my friends how can I become like I can't I couldn't take this step and um at the same time I started working for a family again the missionary but I started working with their little kids and I witnessed the the love in their life so um this um it's interesting because this is one of the things I tell people. Like Muslims first need to see what Christ has done in your life because all they see is Hollywood movies, right? Divorce, decadence, that's what they think Christianity is. They equate Christianity with America or something like that. Yes, and even the ones who grew up in America, that's what they see because they hardly ever

meet an authentic Christian who's really so passionate about their faith, whose lives are changed, you know, for good about their faith. And this Christian, this, again, they're another missionary family. Their life, I was so much more into their family life than just meeting with the lady, you know. And I saw a completely different, like, marriage. The relationship between children and their parents were completely different. I was like, I want that, you know. So there was also that at the same time. So all these things, but I couldn't take the last step because, you know, it's just such a hard soil.

You know, it's just such, you know, the Muslim countries are so hostile and Turkey is not that Muslim even then it was hostile. So one day I'm going to class and I can't take that final step. And I had this vision, which you probably heard that it happens a lot to Muslims. Excuse me. And because I think because of this resistance, you know, it's like it's as if Holy Spirit needs to give us an extra push. So I had this simple vision. So I'm going walking. I'm'm awake it's not a dream i'm walking to the classroom and this um i saw in my mind's eye i saw this little girl she's outdoors sitting on the grass and um looking down in her lap and playing

with toys and from the sky come down comes come down two hands and they are so big so big that you don't even see the owner of the hands you just see the hands so you know compared to the girl and they they're handing her a present this present is so like otherworldly that's how i can expect like it's not like a you know really big teddy bear or something you know it's glowing and you know there's something so precious inside that this girl could never ever attain it and she doesn't even see that this present is being handed to her but finally she realizes she looks up and she tells to the owner of the hands no thank you i have these little things to play and i was like are you an idiot? Like, how can you even compare what you have, like,

with that present? And, you know, finally, finally, Matt, you know, I got it. And the following day, I went to this missionary lady and said, I think this is a good day to become a Christian. Wow. Wow. What was it like having a vision? You said you were walking somewhere, so you weren't asleep, you weren't even sitting down. What's that experience like? Because I've never had a vision like that while I'm conscious. You know, it's never happened again. So, but it's like, it was very fast. I mean, it was maybe like two or three seconds, so it's not really long. two or three seconds so it's not really long and um it was kind of like a really vivid image like you're remembering some like a scene from a movie or something and then it just disappeared i think it's a vision because there's no way i could have imagined all that by myself that's why you know

it could be my imagination too like maybe my brain kind of made sense out of it all, but I'm pretty sure it's, you know. You know, I remember, speaking of visions, I remember somebody once saying to another Christian, they said, I'm afraid it's all in my head. And the other Christian looked at him and said, well, where else do you think it would be? In other words, of course, it's coming out of your brain, you know, doesn't mean it's not authentic. Okay, so you told your friend Therese that you were willing to come to Christ. Then what happened now? Okay, so I got baptized. Oh, she must have been thrilled.

Did she see it coming or was it quite surprising for her when you told her? This is not Therese. Therese was in a sabbatical this year. So this is the next family. And they have been in Turkey for only three months. Oh, okay. Yeah, and she was doing the dishes. And she dropped all the dishes.

Because she's like, because you've been told this is hard soil. You're probably never going to witness anybody convert. And here she comes, and three months later, this crazy girl converting. And no, they did not see it coming. Because it's interesting, because I was very hostile until like i was very resistant and hostile until the moment i converted because my soul like you know also you know other spirits are in you know at force here too i did not want to cross that line you know yeah absolutely but once you cross of course it's like this burden lifted off, right? You know, that agony is gone.

And, you know, again, I said spiritual forces, they kind of, okay, this one is lost, you know, move on to the next one. But I got baptized and Teres came back. She was in Turkey and she was in America. And then when she came back, it was very humbling for him because it was her hard work. I credit her who converted me. So I got baptized and became involved with the Turkish Christian church. And I served. We ran an only Christian teenage camp in Turkey. So I became very involved.

And I, you know what, I lost friends. Like, you know, when I look back, I hardly have any friends from my 80s days. They kind of, I became somewhat of a weirdo to them, you know. So one day we were mocking God together next day I'm just it's like in Christianity looks really kind of stupid from an to an atheist you know foolishness in the gospel you know in in the um so and um I broke up with my fiance he was not um happy hey we have about five minutes left. I wish we had more time, but could you tell us briefly how you became Catholic from being

Protestant? Okay. So, when I was serving in one of these teenage camps, I had a good friend who grew up in Turkey, but his parents were missionaries. And he started studying at Notre Dame here. And one year he came back and he told me that he became a Catholic. And I felt utterly betrayed because the history is very anti-Catholic. Like not necessarily anti-Protestant, but it's very anti-Catholic.

And I set out to prove my friend wrong. And I went to the library and there was one book on Catholic theology. And that was written by this guy called Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. And I was going to prove him wrong. And I kind of opened the first chapter and closed it respectfully because I had no idea what he was talking about. And then this friend of mine, he sent me a book written by an ex-protestant, Mark Shea, just by what authority? Yes, I'm familiar.

Yes, and he uses the scriptures because he's addressed. And I was like, and suddenly I found all the answers to the questions I was asking, because as a Protestant, the more I read, I'm like, this whole scripture does not make sense. Like what Christ said, guys, you know, I know I died and came back to life for you, but just hang in there in a few hundred years, I'm going to send you a book. Right.

You know, it just didn't make sense that he wouldn't establish an authority and um another thing was um was sole fide it just doesn't make sense from a philosophical way like but you still do an act in a way to submit like so that's not act like it just didn't quite make sense and um um so i didn't believe that you're saved by faith alone and um and it's like everybody around me were intelligent design people and i was like okay if science proves that evolution actually happened is our whole belief system gonna fall apart right that isn't you know again it's kind of a solace cryptura thing because you have to take it literal otherwise who do you trust you know as an authority so um then um you know i found a jesuit there was the the the only church that had turkish mass in a city of five million was run by this french jesuit who did not want to see me because they are always kind of suspicious of converts. Of course, yeah.

Does it make sense? Yeah. So, and I ended up actually, I moved to England to get my PhD and I ended up getting confirmed in England. Beautiful. Yeah, and it didn't take long because there's a lot of holes in Protestant theology. And once you start reading about Catholic theology, there's no comparison, you know? So, here I am. We have to do a part two. This is such a fascinating story.

Tell us where we can get your book, because obviously, this is the whole reason you wrote the book, is there were so many amazing things to write down. And as you can tell, I haven't read your book yet, but I promise you that's going to change now that I have, and I'm sure that's true of many people out there listening right now, they're going to want to get their hands on it. So, how do they get it? Okay. So, you can get it on Ignatius.com or, you know, your Catholic bookstore or Amazon or

wherever else you buy your books. It's everywhere. And I hope you enjoyed and leave me a feedback. books it's everywhere and i hope you enjoyed and leave me a feedback and you can um uh email me at daria little at gmail.com and let me know how you like it's very brave of you to give your email out like that so just for everybody listening that's d-e-r-y-a-l-i-t-t-l-e at gmail.com yep yeah so yeah i hope you enjoy it thank you so much okay i gotta do this as we wrap up tell our listeners how they can better engage with muslims i know that's such a huge topic but do you think you can cover it in a few minutes yes uh first of all as i said your life is very

important so be a good witness be a faithful good friend and don't attack their religion of course right off the bat. Listen and learn. And learn about Islam as much as you can. And enjoy it. Like, do use the Socratic method, as St. Thomas would suggest. Ask questions. And try to break that servile fear wall. And once you crack it with your questions, with your witness, with your life,

and the Holy Spirit will be there to do the rest of the job. Glory to God. Well, hey, thank you so much for your time. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. And yeah, thanks for all that you've done. And thanks for the courage of putting this to paper. Oh, thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Matt. Bye. All right. I know what you're thinking. Daria's accent is about 18.5 thousand times better than the Australian accent that I have. Man, it was so cool talking to her. I loved her voice. It was so beautiful.

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Chat with you next week. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you To carry you To carry you you