Pints With Aquinas - 139: The glories of the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary

Starting point is 00:00:00 G'day, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today, we're going to be sitting around the bar table having a brewski and talking to Aquinas about Mary, her glories, her beauty, her virtues, why she is the mother of God. Powerful episode, I think you'll find. Enjoy. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Happy New Year and yeah, happy Christmas. In Australia, we say happy Christmas. In America, y'all keep saying Merry Christmas. And when I say happy Christmas, people look at me and they're like, that's weird. And I want to say to them, when do you ever use the word merry in any other kind of circumstance? Like I'm feeling merry

Starting point is 00:01:02 today. Nah, whatever. Just a little difference there. But whatever. I hope you're having a happy Merry Christmas. On the 1st of January, we celebrated, at least in the West, Mary, the mother of God. In the East, what was it? The circumcision of our Lord, as well as Saint Basil the Great, I believe. Yeah. But let's talk a bit about Mary, the mother of God, and what Aquinas had to say about her. I'll get into that in a minute, but I want to just kind of talk generally about Mary for a bit. I'm doing more on my YouTube channel. If you're interested in checking that out, just go to YouTube, type Matt Fradd, feel free to subscribe. I'm doing longer videos there. But recently, I recorded a video called Mary for Protestants. And the point of this video was to try and help Protestants say as much as

Starting point is 00:01:54 they feel comfortable in saying without, you know, sounding or becoming a Catholic. Now, don't misunderstand me. That's not a relativistic sort of statement. Obviously, as a Catholic Christian, I would want everybody to embrace the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church. But sometimes I think we come at people and say, you have to believe it all at once. And sometimes that's not that easy to do. When I was an agnostic trying to decide whether or not God existed, if you had have sat down with me and tried to convince me of Christianity and said, you have to believe in the inerrancy of scripture, you have to believe that homosexual acts are sinful, something like that, I'm not sure I would have been able to believe those things. And if you had have said to me, well, don't worry about it then, I mean, that obviously wouldn't have been a great way to go. And if you had said to me, well, don't worry about it then, I mean, that obviously wouldn't have been a great way to go. So, just like I had to believe that God existed, that God revealed

Starting point is 00:02:52 himself in Christ before I was then open to these other truths, in this video, I was trying to say, like, what can you say about Mary? Because I want to know what you think about this. I think sometimes when we tend to identify ourselves, define ourselves as not that group over there, we tend to be less sympathetic to that group over there and tend not want to adopt the sort of practices and things that they're involved in, lest we seem like them. It's usually the underdog that's upset about this, lest we, you know, seem like them. It's usually the underdog that's upset about this. This is why, like, for example, Canadians, you know, very often do not want you to think that they're American. New Zealanders do not want you thinking or accidentally calling them Australian, yeah? The Irish, well, there are different reasons for the Irish, of course,

Starting point is 00:03:46 but they do not want you thinking that they're English. That also had to do with being subjected to England. So let's just stick with the Australian and New Zealand, American Canadian rule. It's like when someone says to me, are you a New Zealander? I'm like, oh no, I'm not. And they're like, I hear you guys hate New Zealand. I'm like, no, I think they're great. Like, I don't care. It's usually the underdog that's like super self-conscious and wants to define themselves against them. You know, like I'm Canadian. Don't call me, you know, bloody American. But the Americans, they just think Canadians are cute. Like they don't care. They're not really thinking about you much. Okay. I think sometimes we can do that. So like Catholics, maybe, I don't know, maybe they're listening to like Hillsong praise and worship

Starting point is 00:04:32 music. And you could imagine another Catholic saying you really shouldn't be into that stuff. It's too Protestant. Well, that's not a very good argument. What does that mean, too Protestant? Do you just mean that that's the sort of things Protestants do, but we should be more into, I don't know, traditional Gregorian chant type of music? Why think that? You know? And I'm not talking about inside the liturgy. I'm just talking about in general. Likewise, I think with Protestants, they might look at Catholics, see all this talk about Mary and think, golly, they really take things too far. And as a consequence of this, they end up not saying very much about Mary at all for fear that if they were to,

Starting point is 00:05:13 they would be accused of seeming sort of Catholic. I'm speaking generally, of course, but I think there is some wisdom there. I think there is some truth there. So, what should you be able to say no matter what type of Christian you are? All right, well, let's take a stand back. You're a Christian? Okay. So, you believe that God became man, correct? Oh, all right. So, God became a zygote, an embryo. God became a fetus. That's weird. I bet you've never thought about that before. God the fetus. Now, if you're a Catholic today, maybe you've found certain devotions to Jesus, like the infant of Prague, a little different. Well, this is much more different, right? That this God became a fetus, a baby, yeah?

Starting point is 00:06:08 And how did that take place? Like, this is important stuff. When you ask anybody, like, who are you? They might give you all sorts of answers. They might say, I'm Australian or I, you know, my name is John or Mary or whatever. But if you were to say, well, no, like deep down, like just like, what are you? Who are you? You know, you might say something like, I'm a son of God or I'm a daughter of God. I think that's a good answer because you're saying I am who I am before him primarily, you know, and in a sense, like that's all that matters.

Starting point is 00:06:47 primarily. In a sense, that's all that matters. This is why, incidentally, when we take our identity in other things, like running a podcast or writing books or being great at a particular sport or singing well, it's never a good thing. Because especially if you're successful in that thing, so you might be listening today and you might be a very good guitar player and people tell you how great you are at it. Okay, that's fine. Who are you when you no longer have that ability? Do you even know? Right? And besides wanting to place all of your identity in being a podcaster or a guitar player or whatever, when you are a son or daughter of the king of the universe? That's kind of like being the king of a, or let's say the prince of a particular,

Starting point is 00:07:31 particularly powerful king, and then going about the kingdom, talking about how you know how to make nice shoes. Yeah, okay, great. How about lead with the fact that you're a prince? That's really the most important thing. Who cares about the shoes? Does that make sense? Okay, here's the point. You're a son of God. You're a daughter of God. What about Mary? Well, Mary's a daughter of God, the Father. But the difference between Mary and every other creature is that she has a unique relationship with each person of the Blessed Trinity. Not only is she a daughter of God, each person of the blessed Trinity. Not only is she a daughter of God the Father, she is in a very mystical, but real, yet real way. Okay. By mystical, I don't mean sort of, you know, sometimes we use the word spiritual to somehow mean less real. Of course, the Bible

Starting point is 00:08:17 doesn't use it that way. But like when I say a mystical way, like a spouse, a spouse of God, Like a spouse, a spouse of God, the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Like she became fruitful because of the third person of the Holy Trinity. So if anyone can be said to have been a spouse in a special way of the Holy Spirit, surely it's her. And then finally, you know, she's the mother of God, the son. That's ridiculous. Do you see? Like, honestly, if you just heard what I said, you should pause this podcast and just sit in silence. The mystery of that is phenomenal. This is why, who was the Protestant poet?

Starting point is 00:09:02 Wordsworth, William Wordsworth, I think. he said about Mary, our tainted nature's solitary boast. Our tainted nature's solitary boast. Yeah, it was William Wordsworth, and he was an evangelical Protestant. I mean, look, that's incredible. Well, what about St. Augustine? Like, here's what St. Augustine said, and remember, I'm still trying to make the argument that as any kind of Christian, be you Catholic or not, you ought to be able to say this. You ought to be able to say what Augustine said. He said, him, referring to God, him whom the heavens cannot contain, the womb of one woman bore. She ruled our ruler. one woman bore. She ruled our ruler. She carried him in whom we are. She gave milk to our bread.

Starting point is 00:09:56 One more time. Him whom the heavens cannot contain, the womb of one woman bore. She ruled our ruler. She carried him in whom we are. She gave milk to our bread. That's amazing. You should be able to say that. And so, whether you're a Protestant or a Catholic, you ought to be saying what Mary in sacred scripture said you ought to be saying of her, namely that she is blessed among women, that all generations of which you are a part will call her that, blessed. So, at the very least, I think you should be able to call her blessed Mary. Now, I think sometimes both Catholics and evangelicals worry that if they give special attention to Mary, that they're somehow robbing that attention from God. If they speak of the virtue, the beauty, the glories, if you want, of Mary, that they're somehow detracting from the beauty, virtues, glories of God, that somehow God is in a competitive relationship with his creatures.

Starting point is 00:10:49 But what's interesting, I think, is that we don't think like that when it comes to everything else. You see a starlit sky and you marvel at how beautiful it is. And you may not necessarily immediately think of the creator. You might just look at it and go, wow. Okay. No one stops you and says, stop that, cut that out. You don't want to give too much attention to the starlit sky. You should be praising God. And we have precedence for this in sacred scripture. In Psalm 19, it says, The heavens are telling the glory of God, and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge.

Starting point is 00:11:37 There is no speech, nor are there words. Their voice is not heard, yet their voice goes out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. In other words, nothing is being said audibly about the majesty of God. You know, like, look at us. You know, if you can recognize our beauty, you should be able to recognize the beauty of the uncreated one, right? There's no voice and yet there is a voice and it's declaring the glory of God, okay? So, if that's true of stars, which of course are creatures, why can't it be true of Mary? Or if, I mean, think of any example you want, like a powerful waterfall or holding a newborn and being completely fascinated and marveling at the beauty of it.

Starting point is 00:12:26 and being completely fascinated and marveling at the beauty of it. So why can we do that with anything else except Mary? God is not in a competitive relationship with his creatures. But then maybe you'll protest and say, yes, but sometimes it seems like you're saying that Mary has a beauty that's independent of God or not dependent on Him. Does it? Do they? Does it really seem that way? Because I don't see it that way. I don't want to kind of dismiss your experience, but just like when I speak about the beauty of the night sky or a newborn or a waterfall or my wife on her wedding day, I might not necessarily mention God, but it's not like, do I have to do that? Like every time I talk about the beauty, virtue, glory of something, do I have to immediately say something? Can't I just say, wow, what a beautiful piece of artwork,

Starting point is 00:13:18 and that be essentially a roundabout way of praising the artist? I think it can. essentially a roundabout way of praising the artist. I think it can. But sometimes it's helpful to say what we're not saying before we say what we are saying. So let's say what Catholics aren't saying. And I want to quote Louis de Montfort here. I'm not sure if you're familiar with St. Louis de Montfort. He wrote the book, True Devotion to Mary, which many people have found quite difficult to read and find some of his language, you know, a little flowery, maybe over the top. But listen to this. With the whole church, I acknowledge that Mary being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing,

Starting point is 00:14:07 since he alone can say, I am he who is. Consequently, this great Lord who is ever independent and self-sufficient never has or does not now have any absolute need of the blessed virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things, he has only to will them. All right. So, if you've been worried about what the church has been saying about Mary, like worry no longer, like recognize that. So, that's the first point, like to recognize what we're not saying. We're not saying that Mary has any sort of beauty, dignity, virtue, grace, glory, whatever you want to say apart from God. Rather, we're saying that Mary is like the moon is in relation to the sun. The moon does not have any light of its own,

Starting point is 00:14:57 but merely reflects the splendor of the sun. Likewise, the splendor that we can see in Mary is a reflection of God. So I like what Louis says there. So after he says that, he says this, However, I declare that considering things as they are, because God has decided to begin and accomplish his greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever since he created her, So let me just sort of kind of share my spin on that, okay? nothing next to He who is, yet we can then acknowledge that He decided to perform His greatest act in and through her, Jesus Christ. And that's no small thing. That's no small thing. All right, let's look at what Thomas Aquinas has to say on Mary being the mother of God. Again, we just celebrated this feast a few days ago in the West, so I wanted to focus on that. Before we do, I want to share this very short poem, prayer, poem, prayer, prayer poem from Thomas Aquinas. He says this,

Starting point is 00:16:18 Hail to thee, true body sprung from the virgin's womb, the same that on the cross was hung and bore for man the bitter doom. Thou whose side was pierced and flowed both with water and with blood, suffer us to taste of thee in our life's last agony. O King, O loving one, O Jesus, Mary's son. Isn't that a lovely poem? That comes from the pen of Thomas Aquinas. All right, next I want to share with you something that Aquinas said in kind of response to those who want to say Mary is not the mother of God. And I think many evangelicals think this. And maybe the reason they say that is because they think we're saying that somehow Mary is the source of Christ's divinity. We're not saying that, but we are still saying she's the mother of God. Why? Well, a simple

Starting point is 00:17:13 syllogism. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. It's logic. Can't get out of that. Now, maybe you'll say to me, all right, and I've heard some evangelicals say, and maybe you're an evangelical listening, so please take this as a brother speaking to a brother. I'm not talking down to you, I hope at all. You know, you might say, well, okay, maybe technically it's true, but it causes a lot of confusion. To which I would say, just because something can be confusing doesn't mean it ought not to be said. Like, it's kind of confusing to our Muslim friends when we say that God is one, but three, but one. That's really confusing. And many Muslims would accuse

Starting point is 00:17:59 Christians of polytheism, but they'd be wrong. And so someone might say, well, let's just drop this three persons in one God thing because it's too confusing. No, no, we don't drop something just because it's confusing. We just try to explain it in a better way because this has been revealed to us that God is three persons. Yeah. All right. So with that out of the way, let's look at what Aquinas has to say in response to Nestorius, an early church heretic who did not want to admit that Mary was the mother of God. Here's what Aquinas says, and I will throw this up in the show notes so you can read along if you like. The error, says Aquinas, of Nestorius, who refused to acknowledge that Blessed Mary is the mother of God,

Starting point is 00:18:45 is likewise excluded. Both creeds assert that the Son of God was born or was made flesh of the Virgin Mary. Now listen to this next line. This is pretty commonsensical. The woman of whom any person is born is called his mother, for the reason that she supplies the matter for human conception. Hence the Blessed Virgin Mary, who provided the matter of the conception of the Son of God, should be called the true mother of the Son of God. That's pretty good, isn't it? That's pretty straightforward. He continues, As far as the essence of motherhood is concerned,

Starting point is 00:19:19 the energy whereby the matter furnished by a woman is formed does not enter into the question. She who supplied matter to be formed by the Holy Spirit is no less a mother than a woman who supplies matter that is to be formed by the energy latent in male seed. If anyone insists on maintaining that the Blessed Virgin ought not to be called the Mother of God because flesh alone and not divinity was derived from her, as Nestorius contended. He clearly is not aware of what he is saying. Oh, that's some strong language from Aquinas. So, you're with me so far, aren't you? I mean, I mentioned this right before we read this excerpt. someone would say, okay, so maybe she is responsible for Christ's matter, but not his divinity. So therefore, we can't truly call her the mother of God. Maybe we can say she is the mother of the nature of Jesus Christ, like the human nature, but she's not the mother of the divine nature. Someone might put it that way. Of course, the problem with this is mothers, no mother has

Starting point is 00:20:32 ever given birth to a nature. Mothers have given birth only to persons, at least human women. Yeah, just to get really technical there. So So here's how Aquinas is going to respond to those sorts of objections. A woman is not called a mother for the reason that everything that is in her child is derived from her. And here's a good argument. Man is made up of body and soul. And a man is what he is in virtue of his soul rather than in virtue of his body. But no man's soul is derived from his mother. The soul is created directly by God. All right? So just like you wouldn't say to me, you wouldn't say, Matt, you can't call your mom Debbie.

Starting point is 00:21:27 You can't say that Debbie is the mother of Matt Fradd because she only supplied the matter. It was God who created the soul directly. You'll say, no, that's ridiculous. She is my mother. And yes, it's true that God created my soul, but that doesn't make her any less my mother. And that's why we can call Mary truly the mother of Jesus, even though in saying that, we're not saying that she is the origin of his divine nature. Aquinas continues, consequently, just as any woman is the mother from the fact that her child's body is derived from her, so the Blessed

Starting point is 00:22:05 Virgin Mary ought to be called the mother of God if the body of God is derived from her. But we have to hold that it is the body of God if it is taken up into the unity of the person of God's Son, who is true God. Therefore, all who admit that human nature was assumed by the Son of God into the unity of his person must admit that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the mother of God. But Nestorius, who denied that the person of God and of the man Jesus Christ was one, forced by logical necessity to deny that the Virgin Mary was the mother of God. Okay, so that's what Aquinas has to say. He says so much more, by the way. When we talk about Thomas Aquinas, we often talk about the Summa Theologiae, the Summa Conjuntiles, his commentaries on Aristotle

Starting point is 00:22:59 and the scriptures. But something that's rather overlooked is his academic sermons. This is something you may never have even heard of, but Aquinas was his title at the University of Paris, I believe was master of the sacred page, and he had to give homilies in an academic setting. And there's a beautiful homily that's all on the Blessed Virgin Mary, which I plan on talking about at a later date. But one of the things he says of her is that Mary is like light. And he says this for seven reasons, which I'll just go over really quickly. I won't explain any of them because it would take us far afield, or if not far afield, it would make this podcast five times as long as it ought to be. But here are the seven reasons Aquinas gives for why Mary is like light. Number one, physical light is like Mary in that it

Starting point is 00:23:54 is, number one, a source of joys. Number two, the leader of travelers and of those who are on the way. Number three, the expeller of darkness. Number four, the spreader of its likeness. Number five, the mother of the heavens, heaven's graces. And number six, the most splendid of creatures. And number seven, a delight as well as a consolation to the eyes. And then Aquinas says, these are found in the blessed virgin. Because of these, the sight of her is called good. Now, that's just a teaser. I know you perhaps might want me to kind of get into each of those. I'm not going to here. I'm currently writing a book on how to entrust oneself to the blessed mother through the teachings of Thomas Aquinas. So, stay tuned for

Starting point is 00:24:46 that because I'm going to be delving deep into that in that book, but that's just a taste of it. So, I think that's all I would have to say about the Blessed Mother. And now what I'd like to do is take some of your questions. All right. A big thank you to every one of you listening right now who supports me on Patreon. If you want to support me, you can go to pintswithaquinas.com and click donate. I'm going to read and answer some of your questions right now. A lot came in and I won't be able to get to all of them. Apologies, but let's see how many we can get to. The first here comes from Nick Russell. What was Thomas Aquinas' relationship with Mary like?

Starting point is 00:25:25 How much did he write about her? Did he pray the rosary? Okay, so there's three questions. Let's begin with the first one. Thomas, like many of the saints before and after him, had a great love and affection for the Blessed Virgin Mary. And while there aren't many stories of his devotion to her, there is one early story written about by his biographers that I think is illustrative. When he was a small kid, he was often seen toddling about the family house, okay, castle, with a piece of paper balled up in his fist. And apparently one day they finally

Starting point is 00:26:00 wrenched it from his hands because they wanted to give him a bath. And what did they find? they finally wrenched it from his hands because they wanted to give him a bath. And what did they find? Four words, Ave Maria Grazia Plena, or Hail Mary Full of Grace. So yeah, Thomas did have a great affection for the Blessed Mother. It comes out even more spectacularly in his writings. In the Summa, St. Thomas asks the question, whether God can do better than what he does. And he responds with a scriptural passage from St. Paul, where Paul says God is able to do all things more abundantly than we can even imagine. So he says, in short, yes, God could do better. is in short, yes, God could do better because for creatures that he's made, we can imagine a better version of them or a different kind of version of them, right? That excels what they are right now. So case in point, I want you to picture your best friend, okay? Now, picture him with wings.

Starting point is 00:27:00 Bingo. That's it. All right. But here's the thing. Thomas doesn't just leave it at that. Bingo. That's it. All right. But here's the thing. Thomas doesn't just leave it at that. In the reply to one of the objections, he writes, let me just look this up one sec. Okay. Yeah. So this is in response to the fourth objection. He writes, the humanity of Christ from the fact that it is united to the Godhead and created happiness from the fact that it is the fruition of God and the blessed virgin from the fact that she is the mother of God, have all a certain infinite dignity from the infinite good, which is God. And on this account, there cannot be anything better than these, just as there cannot be anything better than God. So yes, you understood that correctly. Thomas Aquinas just classed Mary

Starting point is 00:27:42 with the humanity of Christ and created beatitude. So he definitely esteems her greatly. Your second question was, how much did he write about her? Well, quite a bit. The Summa already referenced the academic sermons in which he wrote about her. He also wrote a commentary on the Hail Mary. And that leads us to your final question as to whether or not he prayed the rosary. I suspect he did, given that he was part of the Dominican order and St. Dominic obviously helped propagate. Propagate? Disseminate? Share with the world? The rosary? But here's an interesting thing, which you may not know. Back in Thomas's day, as well as Dominic's obviously, the Hail Mary ended with, Thy womb, Jesus. It didn't end with, Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now at the

Starting point is 00:28:29 hour of our death. That was added later. So, sometimes you read these stories about how St. Dominic would kneel down and pray all 15 mysteries of the rosary. And I think to myself, well, yeah, it's a lot easier. It's like, we've taken half the time that it does today. Okay. Here's the point I want to bring up. Okay, this says something interesting about us, I think. Let's suppose I just told you that in Thomas's day, the Hail Mary was longer. And then later on, the church made it shorter. If that were the case, there would be a spade of books encouraging us to go back to the original rosary. Am I wrong? I am so not wrong. I am so right. But what's interesting, and again, I'll let you draw your own conclusion from this, the fact that Thomas only prayed, Hail Mary, full of grace, always with you, blessed art thou among

Starting point is 00:29:17 women and blessed fruit of the Holy Jesus, and that was the Hail Mary. You notice a significant lack of books encouraging us to go back to, say, the Thomistic Rosary or the Dominican Rosary? It is quite interesting. I think it does speak to the fact that we think if something is more difficult, it's somehow better. Anyway, I'll leave it at that. All right, let's look at another question here. How do we explain Mary's sinlessness and why we consider her queen of heaven to Protestants? All right, so this is a little bit above my pay grade. Well, it's not

Starting point is 00:29:54 above my pay grade. I could explain it, but I don't want to kind of get into the sinlessness here because it's a huge thing. The church has always taught that Mary has been immaculate or without sin. Now, even Thomas Aquinas taught this. Sometimes people will point to the fact that Aquinas denied the immaculate conception. Yeah, he did do that because he didn't know how to reconcile Mary as being saved by Christ if she had never sinned. Now, the church figured that out eventually, but that doesn't mean that Aquinas taught that Mary sinned. He didn't. So, I think sometimes we have this idea that sinful creatures are the norm and then sinless is kind of weird, but that's not true, right? Like, Adam and Eve were created in a state of sinlessness and God, if he wanted to, could create you, you know, without the stain of original, and then sustain you by virtues so that you would never fall. Isn't this a possibility? Well, the church says that it is, and many people have

Starting point is 00:30:52 spoken about that. One book I would recommend as far as an apologetic defense on these issues is Tim Staples' excellent book, Behold Your Mother. If you go to shop.catholic.com, just type in Behold Your Mother, Tim Staples. I would strongly recommend you get that book. It is excellent. I think it's the best book that's been written on defending the Marian dogmas. And then you say, how do we explain the fact that Mary is queen of heaven? Well, here might be a way. In the ancient Near East, back in the Old Testament, the queen was never the wife of the king. When we think of a queen, we think of her in relation to her husband, who is the king. But in the Davidic kingdom, as well as other kingdoms before and after that in the ancient

Starting point is 00:31:39 Near East, the queen was the mother. Why? Well, think of Solomon who had 700 wives. Can you imagine having 700 queens? Didn't happen. And so therefore, the queen was always the mother of the king. And there's a really interesting episode in the scriptures where you have Bathsheba, I know some of you pronounce it Bathsheba, Bathsheba coming and kind of bowing before King David. Okay. It's very interesting in the very next chapter, I believe it is after David dies, the mother Bathsheba walks in and Solomon is the one who bows to her and has a throne put on his right side and she ascends it. Okay. So very interesting, you know, how Bathsheba acted towards the king. And then when she became the queen mother, the relationship between her and the king. So if Jesus is the eternal king,

Starting point is 00:32:48 If Jesus is the eternal king, then it would follow from a Jewish perspective, if you like, that Mary is the queen mother. And then, of course, we see in Revelation chapter 12, this woman who gives birth to this child who will rule the world or the nations with an iron scepter. We also see this dragon, you know, and it takes place in the garden part of it. So, it kind of brings us right back to the beginning. You've got sort of the woman, you've got the serpent, yeah? Well, here, you have another garden, you have another woman, and you have the same serpent. So, there are sort of allegorical interpretations one can make of these figures. The dragon, for example, you might say, well, it's a dragon.

Starting point is 00:33:32 So, it's not Satan. And some say, well, no, no, no. It also stands for Satan. Oh, okay. And this child, well, this is something that David talked about in the Psalms. That's not Christ. Well, yeah, it's both. It's both.

Starting point is 00:33:49 Well, why not the woman? Because sometimes people will say, well, the woman just represented the church or Jerusalem. So when it talks about the 12 stars around her head, it's talking about the 12 tribes of Israel. Okay, why not both? If it can be both with regard to the dragon and to the child, it can be of Mary as well. And obviously, the woman who gives birth to this son is going to be Mary. And in Revelation 12, we see her crowned in heaven. So that's another reason I think Catholics have spoken about her as the queen of heaven. Okay. All right. Let's look to another one. Simon says, if we don't pray to Mary, are we somehow not participating fully in what God intended us to do here on earth? Does it make us less likely to go to heaven? Yeah. So I think strictly speaking, the answer would be, would be no, in the sense that you aren't obligated to pray

Starting point is 00:34:40 the rosary, nor does the church obligate you to say, pray the Hail Mary, in order to be a faithful Catholic. I mean, I'm trying to think of the biggest objections. Let's say someone would even say, no, you have to pray to Mary or she won't be saved. No, the church does not teach that. That said, if you have a holy person in your life, you often ask them to pray for you. If you're with Mother Teresa, she's about to die, and she says, I'm going before the throne of God. Can I bring any of your petitions? You don't say, no, I'm good, thanks. Why?

Starting point is 00:35:17 Well, because you understand that she's a lot closer to God and will be a heck of a lot closer in five minutes than you are right now. to God and will be a heck of a lot closer in five minutes than you are right now. And if we can say that of Mother Teresa, we can certainly say that all the more so of Mary, the mother of God. And so for that reason, the church encourages us to ask her intercession. And this is something that has been done throughout the whole history of the church. Let me share with you the earliest prayer that we have to Mary. And my understanding is that this dates back to the 200s. Okay. So in English, it says, beneath your compassion, we take refuge Theotokos, which means God bearer. Our prayers do not despise in necessities, but from danger deliver us only pure, only blessed one. And again, this comes from the 200s, and there's no reason to think the church wasn't obviously praying to her

Starting point is 00:36:11 before then. So that's a few reasons why you might begin praying to Mary if you don't yet, but that isn't to say that there's a specific Marian prayer or devotion which you must take up. All right, let's have a look at another one here. I've heard that Mary's birth was painless. Where do we get that from? That is the standard and historical teaching of the Catholic Church, that Mary did not experience labor pains when she gave birth to Jesus. All right, just look this up here. This comes from the Summa Theologiae, third part, question 35. Let's see here.

Starting point is 00:37:07 Article 6. Okay, so here's what Aquinas says. In his Sed Contra, he quotes Augustine, addressing himself to the Virgin Mother, inconceiving thou wast all pure in giving birth, thou wast without pain. All right, so that's from St. Augustine, right, who dates back to the 300s and 400s. So again, I only share that to show you that this isn't some sort of medieval invention.

Starting point is 00:37:31 Perhaps you aren't as incredulous as I suspect that you are, but I have to think that there are some people who are listening who are trying to swallow this in a funny little difficult. That's why I like to quote the fathers, hey? And that's why Aquinas did as well. Here is Aquinas' respondio regarding the pains of childbirth that Mary did not experience. He says, the pains of childbirth are caused by the infant opening the passage from the womb. Now it has been said above that Christ came forth from the closed womb of his mother. And this is in a different reply to an objection, which we're not going to read. Okay. Aquinas continues. And consequently, without opening the passage, consequently, there was no pain in that birth

Starting point is 00:38:11 as neither was there any corruption. On the contrary, there was much joy therein for the God man was born into the world. According to Isaiah 35, one through two, like the lily, it shall bud forth and blossom and shall rejoice with joy and praise. So again, if you want to go and check that out for yourself, check out the Tertia Pars question 35, and you can read more there. All right, let's take a look at another question. Okay, I might butcher your last name here, Alex Johanningham. Apologies if I butchered that. Thanks for being a patron, Alex. You

Starting point is 00:38:46 ask, how do we explain how Mary and apparitions and miracles attributed to Mary come to be? Are those purely due to the power of God choosing to reveal himself through the image of Mary? Or does Mary herself have powers to appear and work in the world due to her assumption and coronation as queen of heaven? Right. So, every good and beautiful thing comes from God. Any healing, any miracle will ultimately be attributed to the omnipotent God. Alex, if I ask you to pray for my healing or for the healing of a loved one, and you pray, and the healing happens, I can thank both you and God. Ultimately, I'm thanking God, but I'm not, in saying that, I'm not being like, well, therefore,

Starting point is 00:39:31 Alex was completely unnecessary. It's like, no, God saw to it that you were an integral part in this. And so, while there are certain miracles that are attributed to Mary, they are attributed to her intercession before God. So ultimately, God is the efficient cause of any miracles that take place. Philip Evans says, Hey Matt, I've always wondered what was Mary's role in the church after Christ ascended, but before her assumption? Also, what kind of death did she die? Was she taken into heaven immediately? Thanks. Yeah, this is a death did she die? Was she taken into heaven immediately? Thanks. Yeah, this is a really amazing thing to speculate on. Many people suspect that Luke got his account of the incarnation from Mary herself. We know that Luke was a first-rate historian. Luke's gospel

Starting point is 00:40:20 is the only gospel that goes into detail in this area, you know, with the angel speaking to Mary and Mary consenting and so forth. So, no doubt she would have been a source of tremendous encouragement and prayer with and for the apostles before her assumption. You said, what kind of death did she die? So, the Catholic Church has not defined whether or not Mary died. So, it would be wrong to say, if somebody asked you, hey, Catholic, did Mary die? And you were like, no, she was assumed into heaven. That would be wrong. In fact, the tradition is, there is more support in the tradition to think that she did die and was then assumed that she never died and then was assumed immediately into heaven.

Starting point is 00:41:10 All right. So thanks for that, Philip. Okay. Let's see. Malt Content, probably not your real name, says, would Mary be pleased with the luminous mysteries added by Pope John Paul II? Would she not have been satisfied in what has come from St. Dominic through her? Thank you. So, the rosary isn't something that was unheard of before the time of Dominic. I think it's more of a pious legend that no one was praying the rosary

Starting point is 00:41:43 and then Mary appeared and that this was given directly by her to St. Dominic or to someone else. But in actuality, the rosary is something that has evolved throughout the history of the church. And it's said that the reason people prayed 150 aves was to sort of mimic what the monks would pray daily, namely the 150 Psalms. And since they perhaps couldn't read or didn't have enough money to afford books or didn't have the time, they would pray 150 Aves. And this has developed, and this is something that is allowed to develop. We're not talking about doctrine here. We're talking about a pious devotion. And so, would she be pleased? I don't want to speak on behalf of the Blessed Mother, but certainly there's no problem in having...

Starting point is 00:42:32 You could even come up with mysteries yourself if you want. I mean, why not? I remember reading Benedict Grishel would sometimes sit in the subway. This is Father Benedict Grishel, one of the founders of the Friars of the Renewal. And sometimes he wouldn't even pray the mysteries. Instead, he would look around the subway and pray a Hail Mary for different people. And there's no reason to think that you shouldn't do that. I think it's really important that we recognize that there is a big difference between you praying the rosary privately or in a group and the divine liturgy or the Holy Mass, you know? So there you go. Thank you. Jessica Norden. Hey, Jessica, what's up? Thanks so much for supporting me. You say, why did she never consummate her marriage with Joseph? Isn't sex a good thing in

Starting point is 00:43:19 marriage? Yeah, so sex is a good thing in marriage. The understanding throughout the history of the church is that Mary was a consecrated virgin, and that's one of the reasons that she didn't consecrate her marriage. Incidentally, Aquinas addresses the issue that some raise, was it a legit marriage if they never consummated? And he says, absolutely. I won't get into that here. But you might be thinking, okay, so all this idea of Mary being a consecrated virgin, where does that come from? Is that just something that we came up with to safeguard her virginity because we thought sex was bad? And actually, that's not the case at all. It actually comes from a very ancient document in the church, that of the Proto-Evangelium of James. Now,

Starting point is 00:44:08 this is something that was written around AD 120. So it's significantly early and it was clearly written when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of Many People. And in this document, it talks about how she was a consecrated virgin. And this is a document that's referenced by the early church fathers. Now, you might have some Protestants who deny this today, but what's interesting is many Protestants are unaware of the fact that Mary's virginity was something defended by the Protestant reformers themselves. I'm talking Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin, all of these revolters, I should say. Forgive me, Protestants, but I don't see them as reformers. Honored the perpetual virginity of Mary, and they recognized it as the teaching of the Bible.

Starting point is 00:45:06 virginity of Mary, and they recognized it as the teaching of the Bible. And so they were just as likely to defend Mary's perpetual virginity against the attacks we hear today that are raised from Scripture regarding the brethren of the Lord, and what does that mean anyway, as Catholic apologists are today. Okay, let's take one more question. Again, many of you have written in with questions, and I apologize if I haven't been able to get to all of them. Also, a number of the questions were very similar, and so I've tried to take those questions that were most popular. But let's take one more. This comes from Michael Huss, who says, why the consecration to Mary or to Jesus through Mary? Coming from a Protestant background, it's continued to be a point of discomfort. So here's what I want to do for my patrons. I am currently,

Starting point is 00:45:45 as I said earlier, writing a book on how to consecrate oneself to Mary through the guidance of Thomas Aquinas. And what I think I'll do is I'll share some excerpts from this book that I'm writing that'll kind of help, I think, with this. But let me just address this point. Let's put aside the word of consecration for a moment. I do explain why that can be legitimate language to use when it comes to us consecrating, you know, entrusting ourselves to Mary. But if you don't like the word consecration right now, here's another word, okay? Entrustment. I think it's okay to change words around when one makes you uncomfortable, by the way. So, like, I've spoken to evangelical Protestants who say to me, I don't like purgatory.

Starting point is 00:46:28 And I say, okay, let's drop the word. Let's just talk about what I mean by it. You know, and they say, oh, yeah, okay, I guess that makes sense. And they get the concept. You see what I mean? It's the same thing with mortal sin. Like, what is all this mortal, venial sin stuff? And you say to them, well, do you think that a Christian can choose to reject Christ,

Starting point is 00:46:46 like choose to be in hell after becoming a Christian? Some Protestants would say, well, yes, I do. Well, that's what we mean by immortal sin. Do you see what I mean? And so, likewise, if you're having problem with the word consecration, here's another word, entrustment. Entrustment. This is the language of John Paul II, entrusting ourselves to Mary. And you say, well, why would you entrust yourself to Mary? And what does that even mean? Well, just to put it very simply, we can entrust ourselves to the prayers of others. And if Mary is, to quote William Wordsworth again, our tainted nature's solitary boast, if she is holier, closer to God than anyone else

Starting point is 00:47:28 in heaven, which is not an argument I've made here necessarily, but it is something the church teaches, that the greatest creature in heaven is Mary, right? Christ isn't a creature, of course. Then we can entrust ourselves to her prayers. And just like the more one is perfected in the love of God, the more concerned one is for the salvation of others. I think it can follow, and it isn't much of a stretch to say that Mary, being the most perfected, is very concerned or the most concerned as the queen of heaven, right? very concerned or the most concerned as the Queen of Heaven, right? As the one through whom all, you know, fallen creatures can be saved, that she continues to pray for us. And so, we can entrust ourselves to her prayers and her protection because that's really what we're talking about, you know, her protection, her intercession, we're entrusting ourselves to her maternal care. You see, Catholics and other Christians don't merely see Mary as one saint among many. They see her again, yes, as the greatest creature in heaven, but also the mother

Starting point is 00:48:36 of the church. So, we see her as a spiritual mother. So, you think of Christ dying on the cross and he entrusts Mary to John and John to Mary. And he says something very interesting, you know, woman, behold your son, son, behold your mother. And we can see a spiritual, we can interpret that in a spiritual way as to say that Mary has become the mother of the church and you're a member of the church. And so she is in a special way, your mother also. So you can go to her and you can ask her to pray for you and to help you love Jesus and to be a good Catholic. And I guess that's all I would say. I hope this has been a helpful episode, more helpful than not. Again, patrons, remind me to share some of these excerpts

Starting point is 00:49:21 from this introduction to this book I'm writing with Tan Press. And please check out Tim Staple's excellent book, Behold Your Mother, if you want to learn more. And then finally, if you are interested in learning more about what the church teaches about Mary, you can go to Catholic Answers. I used to work for Catholic Answers as an apologist. I'm a big fan of the work that they do. Go to catholic.com and in the search bar, just type Mary or perpetual virginity or assumption or something else like that. And I think you're going to find a lot of great content. So a big thanks to everybody who's listening to me right now, who listens to Pines for the Quietness week after week. I do hope that this year is a beautiful

Starting point is 00:49:58 year for you, that you grow in the love of the Lord and in your relationship with the blessed Virgin Mary. Thanks for listening. Thanks for all your support. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it when I get messages and tweets and things from y'all who tell me how much you appreciate the show. So thank you so much. If you want to leave us a review on iTunes, that actually really helps us. People who are much more knowledgeable than me about these things, they tell me that if

Starting point is 00:50:23 you've got more reviews, you tend to come up when people are searching things. So would you do that for me if you like this show? However you're listening to this podcast on iTunes or whatever, go give us a five-star review. You don't even have to write a great deal, but that would be much appreciated. God bless. Chat with you next week. As wolves am I feeding myself to?

Starting point is 00:50:48 Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? And I would give my whole life

Pints With Aquinas - 139: The glories of the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary

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