Pints With Aquinas - 141: Overcoming scrupulosity LIVE from SEEK!

Episode Date: January 22, 2019

Check out our brand NEW PWA merch here: https://teespring.com/aquinas-tee#pid=369&cid=6513&sid=front --- This episode of PWA was recorded LIVE at FOCUS' SEEK conference in Indianapolis, IN earlier this month. In this episode I sit down with the priests from Catholic Stuff You Should Know to discuss scrupulosity, and how to overcome it. --- SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform  

Yeah, g'day. What's going on, mate? You okay? How you going? How you going? Do you know that there's one other Matt Fradd out there? Well, I mean, there might be more, but if you type in Matt Fradd online, you see me and a bunch of stuff I talk about. But if you're on like Twitter or Facebook, you type in Matt Fradd, it's like there's one other Matt Fradd. I think he lives in Australia or England, but he must hate me. He must hate me because you know everybody in his life is like, hey, I looked up your name. You're the porn guy. You're the guy, like something about you're super Catholic and weird. I don't know why they're talking in a bad American accent like that, but they are. Anyway, poor Matt Fradd. Not me. I'm doing well. The

other Matt Fradd. I need to begin this podcast again. G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we are joined around the bar table by three of the blokes from Catholic Stuff You Should Know podcast, as well as Luke from Catching Foxes to discuss the issue, very important issue, of scrupulosity. This podcast was recorded live at Focus's Sikh conference in Indianapolis, Indiana, and I think you're going to love it. So here we go.

Welcome back to Points of Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Aquinas didn't really deal with the issue of scrupulosity, at least head on, but he did talk about the sin of despair and why it's a sin. And essentially, he says it's because it's not in keeping with reality, like the reality of who God is. So we discussed that a little bit today, but generally speaking, scrupulosity is something I think a lot of people struggle with. It's something I've struggled with in the past, and that's why I wanted to address it. And so this was a really fun episode that I did, as I say, with the guys from Catholic Stuff You Should Know. Luke Carey jumps in halfway through. Excellent episode. But before we get into that, I want to let you know that Thomas Aquinas' feast day is coming up on the 28th

of January. That's right. But you see, the big man needs more than one day. And so for that reason, until the 6th of February, I am selling some really, really incredible Pints with Aquinas merch that we have been working on for a while now. and they look bloody incredible. Click the link in the show notes. It'll be up at the very top, and you can check it out. Basically, it's Thomas Aquinas' huge head, and it says Aquinas under it. It looked really epic. In addition to women's tees, men's tees, hoodies, coffee mugs, we even have, are you ready? Baby baby onesies i've been posting about this on twitter and instagram and facebook maybe you've seen them baby onesies people with the ones that clip at the bottom so if you have a baby or if you know a baby or if you've ever heard of a baby you should

definitely buy this and then just give it to a random stranger in the grocery store with a baby. Give it to them. Because, you know, that's just the coolest thing to have a baby wearing an Aquinas onesie. We even have shirts for toddlers as well. So if you have a toddler and you want to give them an Aquinas tee, that's really cool. They look spectacular. We put a lot of work into them. We've been working on it for a while, knowing that this feast day was coming up. And so you've only got a few weeks to get this. And then they go forever. They're gone.

So make sure you go over right now and buy them. Again, the link will be in. I'll pin them to the top of all of my Facebook, Twitter, stuff like that. But I'll also put it at the top of the show notes. So be sure to go get it. And when you do, you'll be supporting this show and the Matt Fradd Show. And you'll just get to walk around life

with a big fat Aquinas head on your shirt. That's a good conversation starter right there. So you need a shirt that says, I'm a geek, but I know how to party. And you have to say it just like that. This is the shirt that expresses that sentiment. So click the link at the top. At least go check them out because they're really amazing.

And, yeah, get a couple. And, as I say, they're here for a limited time only. All righty, righty, righty. Here is the show. How you going? Hello. Are you okay? I didn, righty. Here is the show. How you going? Hello. Are you okay? I didn't tell you we were going to drink.

Are you all right? I'm down. I downed a Bloody Mary about two hours ago, so I'm just starting to get, you know. I didn't tell Focus we were going to drink. We're not drinking. This is root beer. Root beer. Why did you bring root beer?

With communist symbols for some reason. I don't know. Chicago is a communist sort of thing. How's it going? Super chill, man. This is an awesome event. Yes. You having fun?

It actually is. Sláinte. Cheers to Aquinas and Polymus. To Thomas Aquinas and death to his enemies. So, yeah. So, you guys are the kings of the Catholic podcast world, no matter what anybody says. You've been doing this for how many years now?

The Court Jesters. We are on our ninth anniversary this Sunday. Holy crap. Tomorrow. I've been doing it for two and a half years, nearly three years. But I have my head on YouTube and things like that. Do people recognize you when they walk around?

Not really. That's why I did a mullet. They definitely recognize Father Nathan. Absolutely. Before I had a mullet, they didn't. That's why you grew that, so people would be able to differentiate? Pretty much. So this morning, I was thinking I wanted to talk about prayer because it's a new year

and people want to know how to pray and want to remain consistent to prayer. But I just felt led that we should perhaps talk about something that isn't often talked about but which I think a lot of people struggle with, and that is scrupulosity. And perhaps halfway through the episode, I've got a beautiful quotation from Thomas Aquinas on hope and despair that we'll get to. But just want to throw that out right now. What do we mean by scrupulosity, and why is it not a cross that our Lord is calling us to carry? What exactly does scrupule, like scruples mean? Is there like a Latin phrase with scruples? Wrinkles or something. What's the root? Etymology.com. Etymology.com. When I think scrupulosity, I think of an overemphasis on sin. So it's when one believes that a venial sin is a

mortal sin. Oh, not even that, right? When one thinks that what isn't a sin is a venial sin, what is a venial sin is a mortal sin. He's got it that. Right? When one thinks that what isn't a sin is a venal sin, and what is a venal sin is a mortal sin. He's got it. Alright, look it up. I mean, I was thinking just, in a sense, it's earning God's love. Well, I mean, I know the definition of scrupulosity, but, like, I don't know what scruples

mean, because like, virtuosity is like, you know. Oh, you do that. I'll do that. Thanks for bringing this up. Anything else you want us to freaking look up? It's a live podcast. like, you know. You do that. I'll do that. Thanks for bringing this up. Anything else you want us to freaking look up? It's a live podcast. I don't know. I thought we might actually know this. Does anybody else? Here we go. I got it. Wrinkles or something?

A feeling of doubt or hesitation with regard to the morality of a... Okay. Feeling of doubt. So being full of doubt. With the head full of doubt. So then when I think of scruples, it's someone who is paralyzed by fear. They're paralyzed by fear and are incapable of being able to move forward

because they are so overwhelmed by their sin, the magnitude of their sins, or the multitude of their sins, or the multitude of their sins, or the gravity of their sins, that they can't actually either receive God's love or find God's favor. Interesting. It says here, etymology, small, sharp stone. Small, sharp stone. Yeah.

Pebbles that are really hurting. Like in your shoe. Yep. While you hike. I like that. To bring this to a personal level, this is something that are really hurting. Like in your shoe. Yep. I like that. To bring this to a personal level, this is something that I really struggled with for a good degree of my Christian faith. I became a Christian when I was 17.

I wanted to get super serious about Christianity. I served with Net Ministries. I was married. I had a kid. What? What? Really? What?

You were in Net? In Ireland. I knew this. Oh, in Ireland. My wife and I. I got rejected from Net. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, in Ireland. My wife and I. I got rejected from NET. Did you? Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, I don't know what to say to that. Because of the hair? Because I didn't have scruples at the time. What's up? Pretty much. So you served in Ireland.

Served in Ireland. I was living in Ireland at the time, and I remember just feeling like God was always unhappy with me. The best way I could describe it was like I was walking through God's pristine white-tiled kingdom, and that I kept looking around and was just leaving crap behind me, and just footprints of dirt and mud, and at any point he was looking for a reason to grab me around the scruff of the neck and throw me out. And I remember at that time, I was listening to a lot of evangelical and Catholic debates. I was like binging on Pat Madrid debates, and I remember really thinking but not admitting

that I hoped that Protestantism was true so I could stop being a Catholic. Because the idea of once saved, always saved, though I couldn't justify it biblically, sounded beautiful. And I was so, so tired of feeling like I was disappointing God. And the two things that really helped me, it's going to sound weird. One was the sixth session at the Council of Trent, which discussed justification. The other was Therese of Lisieux. There's a beautiful book called I Believe in Love. Shout out if you've heard it. It's a retreat according to the teachings of St. Therese of Lisieux. Sophia Press publishes it. Those two things like really healed me, I would say, of scrupulosity, where I realized like I'm standing on a mountain, that's my salvation and my salvation is Christ.

And unless I jump off that mountain willingly, like I can say, yeah, like I can have a moral, a high degree of moral certainty of my salvation. And this is something that Ludwig Ott talks about in the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, talking about the succession of the Council of Trent. Like there's a difference between absolute certainty, like the sort of certainty that perhaps we ought to have in God's existence or the inerrancy of Scripture, and then a moral degree of certainty.

And when you think about it, generally speaking, when most of us go to receive Eucharist, it's because we think we're in a state of grace, generally speaking. And that is's because we have, we think we're in a state of grace, generally speaking. And that is to say, we have a high, hopefully a high degree of moral certainty of our salvation. So what was it?

Can I ask, what was it about St. Therese? Like, was there a, was there a line? Was that just her smile? That's how she was converted. She had,

I think she had something akin to depression or something, right? Scrupulosity though. Yeah. I think she had something akin to... Depression or something, right? Scrupulosity, though. I think for her, she was this little brat. And part of that was her acting out of her woundedness. And then she had that experience of the Our Lady of the Smile. And Our Lady smiled at her through this statue, and she just felt the warm embrace of

God, and that was it. Therese has a lovely line. She was 24 years old on her deathbed, and if you've read the autobiography, the sisters say to her, look, bloody hell, Therese. They probably didn't say that, but they say, look, it's no wonder you're so confident of heaven. We don't think you've ever committed a mortal sin in your life, and there's this lovely line from her. She says, We don't think you've ever committed a mortal sin in your life. And there's this lovely line from her. She says, it's not because of my lack of mortal sin that I go to God with confidence. Even if I had committed all of the sins imaginable, I would still be this confident.

Because I know that all of my sins, compared to his mercy, would be like a drop of water flicked into a raging furnace. She says this lovely thing. She's like, no, I've seen the way he spoke to the woman caught in adultery. I've seen how he spoke to Magdalene. That's how she calls Mary. And she's like, nope, nothing can frighten me, which is like the sass a Christian daughter or son of God ought to have, I think.

So it was that, but it was more the author of I Believe in Love. You know, he said, like, we act like orphans, you know, like that hell has been opened up under our feet, and we go about with this fear and trepidation. He's like, no, no, no. Like, we have a God who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, right? And who has opened heaven under our feet, who is, he has this lovely line, bent over us with inexpressible gentleness, something to that effect, who loves us, who likes us. But I think for many of us, like even everyone sitting here, it's like, yeah, okay, God loves me, but he doesn't like me.

Maybe he loves me in an obligatory sense, like the way I'm supposed to love my parents or whatever, but he doesn't delight in me. I think that is what I struggle with, and I think that a lot of times is the root of this scrupulosity. It seems like, how is God like us, and how is he not like us? It seems to me, because I don't struggle with scrupulosity, full disclosure, but there's something about, do we have an ordered sense of how he is like us and not like us?

Because I think when there is a sense of scrupulosity, when there is a sense of scrupulosity, when there is a sense of scrupulosity, we're saying he's like me in the frustrations I get. So when I get worn down by the people in my life, and I say he must be like that, and that's where I think our theology, our brain needs to kick in and say, you know, no, no, that's where he's not like me. He's eternally patient. He's unconditionally loving, and I can't even comprehend that. Why do I even try to comprehend what eternally patient means? Why do I even try to comprehend what unconditional love? It's not of me.

And yet he became incarnate. He became like me in every way except sin, and that identifies it as sin. We think God is like the soup Nazi from Seinfeld. Oh, yeah. And that eventually we keep going back and, like, I masturbated again. No more soup for you. Right? Yeah.

Welcome, Father John. Hey, thanks, guys. Hello, John. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you. Yeah. What are we drinking here? Oh, you want some beer?

I'd love some beer. Okay, so I only have... I'll just drink some of this. You can have mine. That's nice. It's an imperial stout. It's good? Brewed and bottled by the...

Yeah. Yeah. I think we're more willing to allow God to love other people than to allow God to love us. So true. So there are certain people, it's like, no, no, no, no. Like, God still loves you. But then we commit even like a fraction of what they've done, or we commit the exact same sin or something in the same category of sin.

And it's like, God could never forgive this. God could never love me. And I think that's where we are very possessive of our sins. He's the Lamb of God who takes away sins. Give it to me. Right. But they say, no, I'm going to hold on to it because it's the only currency that we have over God.

Say that again. Explicate that. That's really powerful. It's amazing, because when people have sinned, they actually want to hold it to themselves, because it feels kind of good to be, you know, I'm bad. You know, like there's that scene from Family Guy where she's like, should I have another cookie or not have another cookie? I mean, I'm bad, but I know I'm bad. But that makes me really bad. In fact, it makes me worse. Then I think he punches her.

Peter Griffin. So then when we've sinned, we know that this is uniquely mine, my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault. So then by holding on to it, we actually say, when I'm good and ready, I'll give it to God. But sometimes we want to sit in our sin for a while. Like we want to be in mortal sin and be like, yeah, I've been so naughty. And I'm unlovable. And then that's where the identity, I think, really

creeps in, and we become our sin. This is Pines with Aquinas, right? Yes, sir. Okay, good, because I was going to quote Aquinas here. Good, let's do it. Pretend like I know what I'm talking about. That's what this podcast is about. He's looking at his phone. So, let's do it. Pretend like I know what I'm talking about. That's what this podcast is about. He's looking at his phone. When Aquinas distinguishes sins, he talks about how there's the movement towards the good that's not God, and then there's the movement away from him as well. So you have concupiscence, kind of the grasping at the good, and then the rejection of God. So pride

is a part of every sin. And I just wanted to add that to what you were saying, that we often think of sin as like we're choosing other goods and we're not paying enough attention to God. And then he gets really upset because we should be praying more, we should be doing everything right. But it's actually, there is that element of pride in every single sin. It's at the heart of it where we just turn away and we make ourselves God. Let me quote directly from the big man. This is on what he has to say regarding despair.

The big man. It's a little kind of philosophical, but it's understandable. According to Aristotle, affirmation and negation in the intellect correspond to search and avoidance in the appetite. So like, we ought to pursue what's good and avoid what's evil. And so breaking down some of this language so it's not as complicated, he says, consequently, every desire which is conformed to a truth is good in itself, while every desire which is conformed to a lie is evil. All right, so then here's the point. Now, the true opinion of the intellect about God is that from him comes salvation to mankind and pardon to

sinners. According to Ezekiel 18.23, I desire not the death of the sinner, but that he should be converted and live, while it is a false opinion that he refuses pardon to the repentant sinner, or that he does not turn sinners to himself by sanctifying grace. Therefore, just as the movement of hope, which is in conformity with the true opinion, is praiseworthy and virtuous, so the contrary movement of despair, which is in conformity with the true opinion, is praiseworthy and virtuous. So the contrary movement of despair, which is in conformity with the false opinion about God, is vicious and sinful. Here's why I love Aquinas.

Just keep reading. That was great. Isn't that beautiful? No, no, your accent. Oh, right. So when I was a kid, my mom would affirm all of my drawings. Anything I did, she's like, that's great, Matt, but it didn't mean much. But when Dad said it, I'm like, crap, that must have been good. Likewise, when a flowery She's like, that's great, Matt, but it didn't mean much. But when dad said it, I'm like, crap, that must've been good. Yeah. Likewise, when a flowery saint's like, God is

just like dripping with mercy for you. I'm like, shut up. When Aquinas speaking like a calculator tells me that, I'm like, cool, I guess that's right. Yeah. But I love that. It's like, you can believe that God doesn't like you and that he won't have mercy on you. You're welcome to do that. You can also believe that the world is flat. That's fine. But I invite you to reality. And sometimes, and this is a poetic way of saying it, sometimes I think that Christianity, or at least my relationship with Christ, is just the long story of Christ refusing to believe me when I tell him I'm not worthy of his love. I like that.

Because I think if I was God, I'd like, I watch one episode of Days of Our Lives, and I'm pretty sure I can come up with a compelling argument against God's decision to save humanity. I'm like, have you not met, like, have you heard of the Kardashians? Right? So then what is the way out of scrupulosity? I mean, you mentioned your way. You mentioned the books that you read or that part of Aquinas. But, like, do you have some

common ways that people can go to to get out of scrupulosity? Let me ask this based upon that quote. Like what you said to Thomas and your dad. I've been a priest 13 years now, and I'm starting to become more blunt, like less gentle. And I'm finding it's actually

effective. In the confessional or just everywhere? Everywhere. I think I can sense. Is that why you called me? Oh, never mind. Yeah. You shouldn't have called him fat, man. That was really not cool.

Not cool. What is it called? The thigh gap? I'm working on that. Come on, man. So according to Aquinas, if somebody comes to me and mentions, like, I believe that I am working all these things, and every sin utterly destroys in an irreconcilable way my relationship with God, and I just say, you're wrong. Yes, you're incorrect.

You are incorrect. And you're welcome to be, but I invite you to be corrected. And for those of us who struggle with scrupulosity, if I just said that, I mean, I don't expect people to be like, oh, you're right, Father. But if they go home and that keeps on resounding in their head, he said I was wrong. He said that is an untruth. He said that is a falsehood. Repent. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that's the next step. But even just the way you are thinking is wrong, I love you. I don't want to offend you, but the way you're thinking is wrong. And then the next step is they come back and they say, I think I'm sorry to be convinced. Then you say thinking is wrong. I love you. I don't want to offend you, but the way you're thinking is wrong. And then the next step is they come back and they say, I think I'm sorry to be convinced. Then you say, now repent. Can I? Do it.

I've got a Disney analogy here. Do it. So like in Lion King, there's a moment where Scar is, they're talking about something, and then Scar comes up and he says, that is a lie. And then Scar comes up and he says, that is a lie. And then he begins spinning this whole story about how he was the one that killed his father.

And that's the moment where Simba gets knocked out. But then when Simba comes back, right? You know what I'm talking about? When Simba comes back, he actually dives on top of Scar, and he says, liar, you're a liar. Yes. So what you did was you just said to this lie, you're a liar. Yes. Liar, liar.

That's good. So my question is, is that helpful? Whoa. Is that right? I know it's true. I just don't know if it's helpful. They weren't even born really with that. They watched Lion King.

Okay, in Frozen. Bloody millennials. That's right. Does that make sense? You just said liar to a liar, which means there's truth. Exactly. But the problem is, I guess this is all wrapped up in a human being who isn't just intellect, but also passions and distortions and lies about who he is.

I think that's precisely it, though, is that if we get lost in our minds and we try and figure everything out again and again, just up here, because we kind of create a framework around how we relate to God. And if you do this thing long enough, you realize that sometimes he just takes the framework of how you pray and what your perfection is, what holiness looks like, what love is, and then he just smashes it. He just smashes it sometimes. And I think we've been around long enough to know that, and a lot of people are listening, it's like every once in a while he takes the framework

and he just destroys it. And from that, new life is born. And I think scrupulosity is a refusal to get rid of the framework and it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller and you're losing touch with reality. And that's the problem. This reminds me of like a dating relationship. You know when you guys dated, you all dated, right?

Yeah. I know it doesn't look like it's possible, You know, when you guys dated, y'all dated, right? Yeah. I know it doesn't look like it's possible, but yes, I did. I remember, you know, when you first start dating. Why are you laughing, Luke, from Catching Foxes?

Thank you. Yeah, you think to yourself, like, does she like me more? Do I like her more than she likes me? You know, that's a thing you actually think about and worry about, right?

And like maybe at points you try to clarify that, like are we on the same page here? But like I've been married for like 12 years. I don't think that anymore. It's not a thing anymore. I'm not trying to have control over my relationship and the love which my wife has for me. I submit to it.

I don't understand it. I've often said, you know, I think a lot of men are like this. I'd rather be respected than loved because my wife, she's seen me at my worst. You know, when I get angry, when I do something stupid and I i i'm like i'm sorry i did it again you know and she's like i love you i'm like why it's like i can't it doesn't make sense yeah could scrupulosity be a test a test to god i i i am i'm testing your what you've said is unconditional love and mercy and and i'm gonna keep on throwing this at you and see at you and you have to prove over time that you're going to love me in spite of this.

But I think that's really dangerous because if you stop receiving the love of your wife, that's actually going to begin to hurt her because she's incapable of convincing you, I do in fact love you. Like, allow me to love you. And if you're like, no, you can't love me today. Like, I mean, I don't really want to go that route, but you know what

I mean. Ultimately, scrupulosity is a failure in trust, right? We think of it as an intellectual deficiency and hope, right? Yeah. And it's, uh, but it's really about the ability to stay in the promise of like, you don't know if she's going to abandon you. Yeah. And when she says that, you don't know if she's going to hurt you. That. And when she says that, you don't know if she's going to hurt you. That's right. Just like you've been hurt in the past or whatever. And if you live out of that. So we just so often, I think, are intellectualizing everything. What's lovely, right, though, is like while my wife's promises, she could go back on them.

God can't, which is why meditating on the promises from Holy Scripture are so important. A couple of lines I love. One from Faustina. Well, both from Christ, but in two private revelations. One to Faustina and one to Catherine of Siena. So in the diary, Faustina, Christ says to her, quote, the greater the sinner, the greater right he has to my mercy. Wow.

Cha-ching. Second quote, which I love, is Christ to Catherine catherine of sienna and i'm paraphrasing because i forget exactly how it goes but it's essentially uh my mercy is greater without any comparison to the sins creatures can commit therefore it greatly displeases me when they think their sins are greater like for me like meditating upon that was really helpful and just sitting before our lord and one of the prayers i used to pray when I was going through this is like, Lord, would you tell me that you love me until I finally believe you? Because I don't.

Like I really don't believe you. And sometimes like maybe it's because we're so familiar with the language that God loves you that that's an impediment to growing in our understanding of God's love. It's like when I was a kid, I would say a word, and I would repeat it over and over until it lost its meaning. Until it actually sounded weird. So the term was emptied of the concept. Wallet, wallet, wallet, wallet, wallet.

No way that's a bloody word. God loves you. Yeah, yeah, I know. God loves you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally get it. Shut up. You don't know that at all.

And so realizing that I don't know that, that was a real prayer of mine before our Lord. Would you tell me you love me until I finally give in and believe you and recognizing that I couldn't. So I might have missed this earlier in the podcast, but what was the turning point for you? Three things. Good spiritual director, Bishop Scott McCaig now,

up in Canada from the Companions of the Cross helped me. Sixth session at the Council of Trent. Is it the sixth session? It was on justification. That's what really helped me. I forget session at the Council of Trent. Is it the sixth session? It was on justification. That's what really helped me. I forget, yeah. And then what, Therese Elysia.

And there was a book called I Believe in Love. The retreat, yeah. Yeah, because, you know, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. Yeah. You know, he talks about that the church never said that you can't have certainty of your salvation.

Like, you can have a high degree of moral certainty of your salvation. You just can't have sort of inerrant, infallible certainty. And that's what I didn't get, that there was a distinction there. And I think I mentioned before you came on the show, whenever I go and receive the Eucharist, I hope that it's because I believe myself to be in a

state of grace. Yeah. I think that first one is key, though. You have to be led out of... It's a forest of desolation and scrupulosity. I mean, you're lost and you're just going to spin. You think of Dante at the beginning of the Inferno where he's just climbing up the side of the mountain

and he can't... There's people with mullets kind of coming at him and scaring him away. That's a different translation. But you have to have the Virgil, so to speak, come into your life and to say, you can't continue in this way. Out of the dark forest, yeah.

As a priest, how have you helped people or how have you seen people overcome scrupulosity? Because again, I think there's a lot of people who think scrupulosity is piety. Like, no, no, don't you get it? I'm a really good freaking Catholic. Father told me to pray one hour farther for my whatever.

What do you say? Penance. Penance. And I prayed it 18 times because I thought the first 17 times maybe I got it slightly wrong and maybe if I got it slightly wrong, God wouldn't forgive. And so it's like we think of it as a badge of honor. And it's like, no. I think the first mistake is that trying to, especially when we're young, we think holiness equals intensity, right?

So the more intense, the more hardcore I am, the more holy I am. And that's the first thing, is that somebody has to take you, and I've had some guys that I've worked with who have left seminary, and it's really hard to think, I've left seminary, I'm not doing a holy hour anymore because I have a job, I'm not praying in the office,

I'm praying less, which means I'm less holy, and I'm less intense, and I love God less. So you can see how the causality kind of works you down the chain, and you start to collapse in yourself, and then you start to control the little things you can, and it ultimately leads to this scrupulous thing. So I think we've got to kind of march back and say, okay, what is your state in life? And it's not more prayer is better, but it's actually about figuring out and discerning what is your spiritual life supposed to look like.

That's the starting point, I guess. The success stories I've seen have come when I have been very intense with the direct area parishioner and then somehow when they go deep into prayer, our Lord seconds what I said. But I think that's the problem. I think with some people that are scrupulous, a prayer is just very surface.

It's everything I can say. The going deep in prayer is lacking many times. The real personal relationship with a God who they're going to allow to say, I love you over and over and over again until they're convinced. I see that in my work with people who struggle with pornography,

that prayer ends up being a means of exchange. Like, I give you a rosary, you give me a porn-free day. And you hear people say things like, I failed at porn last week, but I know it's because I didn't pray my rosary. And you want to say, don't blame the Blessed Mother, dude. And that really perverts the spiritual life, because it's no longer about intimacy with our Lord, but about control. I want to invite Luke Carey from Catching Foxes.

He wants to add two cents. Don't be sorry. Don't be all scrupulous about it. Wow. Embarrassing. I have a wife and I can't hear myself, so hopefully this sounds good.

And so she actually, this is like a huge cross of ours, like a huge, huge cross. And so one thing that I have really had to like in, because I have never even like experienced this before. You could deal with a bit of scrupulousness to be honest. Exactly. I was like, well played, Lord. Well played. But like, you know, I mean, it gets to a point where like, like, like mass, we will be like up, like ready to leave. And you know, like she'll go, I think I saw some like white will be like up like ready to leave and you know like she'll go

i think i saw some like white bread up there i need to go and check and i really tried to install this thing of like that's not your job don't worry about that's not that's this is not what you have to do you aren't a sacristy you aren't this this isn't your vocation god's not calling you to this trust him and that's hard as a spouse it's been really interesting I'm actually really sounds weird grateful that

we have that cross because it's just I've never experienced that oh my gosh I saw a thing up there or oh my gosh I'm like how am I going to like, calm her down from, like, you don't have to go to mass if you have 103, like, temperature. Right. That's not how it works.

Right. God is bigger than that, and it's not you to make that call. That's not your job to, you know, do that. So I just wanted to add that. Yeah. Just like a spouse. Just, you know, and really I have found calm, although measured ways, not like intense, like, this is what God wants. It's just like, it's fine.

Worry about it. This isn't your job. Your job is to be like a holy woman because I am exhausting. So don't worry about that. And hold the cross you need. We've got bigger fish to fry. Yeah, exactly. That's an in-the-moment thing that I've seen with people that are scrupulous, is if I say it's on me if I'm wrong.

Exactly. And they do tend to say that. Like, as a spiritual director, as their pastor, I'll say, you need to do this, and if you're wrong, it's on me. And at first it was kind of offensive how quickly people were like, all right. And then they just moved on. I'm like, you're that willing to have something you consider sin? See, for me, I wouldn't have been able to accept that.

In my scrupulous condition, I would have went, well, you're just a liberal crazy priest, and that doesn't mean anything. So I'll go to somebody else. Yeah, I'll go to somebody who's going to tell me I'm crazy. One of the things that they recommend, at least in seminary, is if you have somebody who is dealing with scrupulosity, you pray their penance with them. You assign them a penance, and then you say, we're going to pray it together.

And then you say, like, you to pray it together. And then you say like, you know, let's pray one Hail Mary and then you say it together and then it's like, your penance has been completed. Now I'll forgive you of your sins. God the Father of mercies. And then it's almost like, checkmate! That's cool. That's a good idea.

I've only had to do it a few times, but I feel really bad because I know that for them, like, you're exactly right. Like, they if you do it a few times, but I feel really bad because I know that for them, you're exactly right. If you do get firm with them, that actually excites them because it's like, yeah, I'm so bad. That's why he's angry because I'm bad. And I'm just like, stop. You're done. And then you just put them in checkmate, and then hopefully it works. And I've even counseled some persons to just, within the context of, you know, like, just conversation,

just have you ever thought about getting counseling? That's what we ought to talk about a little bit, about mental illness, OCD, that sort of thing. Yeah. Because some people have called scrupulosity religious OCD, which might be a disparaging way of putting it. But let's maybe talk a bit about that. It can, I mean, it's, I think it's a real, it's a real thing. I mean, there's a guy at my parish who struggles with a mental illness, and the way in which it manifests is he gets turbo pious. He has to light every single candle. And I'm like, dude, like, don't light all the candles, because like, you know, other people want to pray, but he's having an episode. So it's just like, don't light all the candles because, like, you know, other people want to pray. But he's having an episode.

So it's just like, whatever, light all the candles. Don't really care. But then, you know, you go to his wife and you're like, hey, you know, he's having an episode. It's just like, oh, all right. So. Well, it's, you know, like, it really is anxiety, I think, in a lot of ways. Not, you know, like, always. But I think it is a form of anxiety that comes from another place.

Like always. But I think it is a form of anxiety that comes from another place. And this is how it manifests itself when you have a conversion or when you're at a point in your life where it's just – and you really have to treat it like that. It's seeking control, isn't it? I think it's not – I mean, I think it can be that. I think it's almost more obsessiveness. But why? It's to control something. Yeah, that's true.

I'm not a psychologist, obviously, so I'm not talking about the kind of mental illness that might be there. But you can imagine if somebody feels emotionally turbulent and just everything's crazy, then the candlesticks better be a bloody certain height, and you better be preaching from the air. I need to control all of my surroundings

because my interior life is in disarray. That might be a superficial way of looking at it, but I think for a lot of people, or for me at least, it was that to a degree. That's fair. No, and I think you do have to have a mental health aspect about it. So with Erin,

you know, we kind of like have a rule that she doesn't go to confession as much as I go. One, because she's holy. But she goes to confession, I'm novice, so she's got it all down. But two is that for her, it just creates such an unhealthy headspace. So for her, she really can't do the whole once a month thing. I do.

Does she have like a melancholic disposition? You know, the four temperaments? I wonder if people who are melancholic disposition you know the four temperaments I wonder if people who are melancholic tend to struggle with scrupulosity more my temperaments if thought it's worth it

melancholic choleric I'd say yeah I mean she is more of an introvert so I don't know if that maybe has something to do with it where it's just more

like she tends to like look inwards a lot and just kind of be in line with her thoughts and I can't do that for any more than like 25 seconds that's me

and my wife is a textbook extrovert. If we go to a party, I'm like, honey, let's go. She's afraid to leave because she's like, well, if I leave, how will they have fun? Whereas me, here's a classic test to see if you're an introvert. You're at a party, you go to the bathroom,

and you shut the door, and you lock it, and you feel like this. Oh, God. So good. Especially if they have one of the slide locks. Click. Oh, I can see. I can see the separation. But if it's one of those push in buttons that doesn't get the satisfying click, to hell with that. Anyone could walk in. I don't know if it's locked, but when I can slide, if there's both, I'm in heaven. Click, click. I don't know if it's locked, but when I can slide, if there's both, I'm in heaven. Click, click.

Praise you, Jesus. I like the one that looks like the turns. You got to turn it, and then it's got that big deadbolt. I love deadbolts. I'm done with you people. I like the one that even says on the outside, occupied, so that they might not even try the door. You always get that fright when they try it. You're like, whoa!

You know what the greatest is? Is when the bathroom is in a guest bedroom or just off. So it's not, you just have to feel like people outside waiting. There's a barrier. Two doors in one. Why are we talking about toilets? Right after I'm here, I'm sorry. I ruined everything.

No, you're awesome, dude. No, you're just saying you want to get away. Your wife's an extrovert. You're an introvert. Yeah, my wife's a textbook extrovert. I don't know. I think it affects all kinds. I would put money on people who

rate as melancholics deal with this more. They might have a greater... Melancholics tend to be in their head, artistic, kind of fall into a space, and other people need to be like, you should come and hang out with us. I know a turbo choleric who's a superscrub.

Okay. Superscrub, superscrub. Superscrub, superscrub. Let me tell you. And it's like, but it's because he has to control everything. And because he has to control everything and because he has to control everything he has to control his interior life and when he controls his interior life he says

i'm not worthy and therefore like god doesn't love me and whatever and then he tries to enforce that on other people and it's really problematic so i think your scrupulosity is manifested in different ways cholerics who are scrupulous actually make other people scrupulous because they tell them. Melancholics who are scrupulous, you would be willing to kind of allow other people. It's like, well, God will probably forgive you, but he will never, never forgive me. I don't know what the sanguine or the...

Well, I have a sanguine example. I have a sanguine super scroop in my life who will go to a party, will have the time of their lives and they'll engage with everybody and then they'll go home lay down in bed and analyze every single conversation and get mad at themselves over and over and over again the list i said this i shouldn't have i should have said this in this place and it keeps them up the entire so after parties which they love love parties and then they go to bed and they stay up all night worrying about every little thing they said let's speak about something real.

Someone like that, that kind of scrupulosity, if you're identifying with that, I bet you probably struggle more with masturbation. You think so? Yes. Oh, beating yourself up. I'm saving this line for the seminary, but I'll disclose it for all of you because I want to preach a homily at our seminary. But the line is this.

Keeping in mind that this is a seminary. Yeah, it has an accent with it because I want to preach a homily at our seminary, but the line is this. Keeping in mind that it has an accent with it, because I think certain lines have to be delivered in a certain kind of accent. So the line is, you beat yourself up, you beat yourself off. And that's when Pints with Aquinas ceased to be a podcast.

But that's true. If you keep beating yourself up, I'm so bad, I i'm horrible i'll never be loved how could i have done this why did i say and now right now there's a woman out there listening who's like beat yourself off that's a male thing i'm a woman i struggle with porn and she's even again right it's the thing it's like so i would say the primary reason we want to masturbate or look at porn is to soothe ourselves i would would say that's the primary reason. When you feel super stressed out, emotionally turbulent, you seek to regulate. This is why

I want to drink peanut butter M&M's and whiskey when my kids go to bed at night. Because I'm exhausted and friggin' fried and I have, you know. Well, isn't that what all addictions are? They're not like all, but it's a sense of like, I just need this thing to like help me. I just gotta get this out. I gotta get, or I feel this thing like, but it's a sense of like, I just need this thing to like help me. I just got to get this out.

I got to get, or I feel this thing like, if it's like, I want to gamble. I just want that rush because my life sucks. Or I just need that rush of like, you know, whatever. Or if it's sports betting or if it's any addiction that like. The rush and escape. Yeah. The difference is there's something about is there's something about sexual sin that sex is supposed to be between

persons and gambling is always, like there can be a real joy from gambling. There can be a real joy from food. There can be a real joy from drink, from shopping, from I don't know, like juggling or something. But then at some point, like if you

invert or pervert sex, you've actually broken something of human relationships. And there's something about the self abuse that actually says, I don't even want anybody and I'm going to get it myself. And that's where I think it's especially insidious. But yeah, and maybe because we live in an especially sexualized age that that's where I think it's especially insidious. But yeah, and maybe because we live in an especially sexualized age, that's why I said I think that this kind of intensity, this sort of I suck, I suck, I suck, leads to I need to medicate. And maybe in past generations it hasn't been porn and masturbation.

But for us, we were raised, we were seven years old. We saw porn, we didn't know what to say. And it became the way that we, like when I was a kid, my dad was angry at me, porn. And I didn't know that that's why I was doing kid my dad was angry at me porn and i didn't know that that's why i was doing it but i think for many of us that's kind of our thing wow that's that's you know um maybe for some people out there it's not it's other stuff it's it's drink you know but i think like yeah so i'll i'm just briefly the uh i live with another priest who's been a

priest for a long time and he said that know, in the 1950s and 60s, we looked at some of these priests who had alcohol addictions, and we were just like, oh, man, what a loser. Like, he would show up for Mass. He could smell alcohol in his breath. He could barely get through the Mass, whatever. Like, those were dark times because, you know, all these guys had addictions. But he said now the pornography addiction is worse

because everything looks like, you looks like it's perfect. Nope, everybody shows up for mass. We're doing everything we should do, and yet inside we're full of dead men's bones, and then that just makes us feel worse, so then it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's worse. He said it's worse than the alcohol problem.

So, I mean, somebody mentioned last night, like, I mean, we've got to people in Sucksaholics Anonymous. I agree. And this really does come full circle to scrupulosity because one of the things AA tell us is that one of the greatest lies an addict believes is if you really knew me, like, you wouldn't love me. You wouldn't stick around. You would know that I'm not worth it. But to know Christ is to know that that's false. Like, to know our Lord is to know that that's false. Like to know our Lord is to know

that I'm loved. And I think that's the truth that we have to accept. And I think if you're an alcoholic priest, you come to St. Master Liturgy, it's like people do know. They must know. And at least they understand. And yet they seem to still be affirming at least they're still coming. Whereas if with a hidden addiction, you're saying the only reason they're coming is because they don't know. And so I'm going to keep up the charade. And if they did know.

And if they did know, yeah, I'd be done. This is why for so many people, like when I go speak at high schools, 50,000 people I spoke to last year. A lot of it was on pornography and I've had so many women come up to me and they're like, thank you for saying that this is something women struggle with and i've had women say to me like they'll finally confide in a female friend and they're like um this is something i'm struggling with

and i wonder if you could hold me accountable and the woman just looks at her and says you you too i thought i was the only one and i've had women come to me and say like they've been kind of freed they haven't looked at porn since then and it was almost like some things can only be healed by the antiseptic light of truth, right? And not just the truth of the matter, but being accepted in that truth. In community, yeah. Because, like, hell is isolation, right? Like, that's ultimately what hell is.

Hell is a complete isolation from God. Like, you're caught up from God. I think this is a Ratzinger thing. You know, this idea of, like, I think that's one of the worst things about, like, porn and masturbation is it's such an isolating act and it's why it's so like, that's why there's this real like, I'm a hellish aspect

because you're just so cut off from like basic humanity or a basic whatever. But it's not even the worst sin. I mean, according to Dante. Hey, and Aquinas. Really?

Yeah, Aquinas makes that very clear. But get in. Well, Dante. You don't have to leave. Do you want me to or share the microphone or something? So what is it? What do you say? Like Dante is Aquinas in verse?

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, now listen to this one. Yeah, go for it. 21 Pilots is Pascal in verse. You're welcome. Think about that. We can steal that. We got a topic for next week.

No. I was going to say the, I've mentioned this to people in direction and in confession that Dante's vision of hell, so the layers, the highest layer of hell that's actually in hell is lust. And he goes through the seven deadly sins.

And what Dante's saying here is that the lowest sins are pride and envy and... The worst sins. The worst sins, the deepest sins, where Satan is and the deepest... Because on the layer of lust, they're just being blown by the winds, if you remember that from Dante's Inferno. They're just kind of being blown over.

You're out of here. Clarify that for those listening, because this is a powerful image that Dante uses. Are you going to go to the bathroom with that? Bye, Father Nathan. Bye, Father Nathan. Bye, Father Nathan. Hey, Luke, feel free to jump in. So, yeah, so...

Speaking of pride, I mean, I'd love you to talk about that a bit more, about, like, if, like, Satan would just stop flapping his wings, maybe he'd be, like, freed, but he won't, and so he freezes the... He's frozen at the bottom of hell, right? But at the top, it's just these winds that are blowing everybody. So I just say that to people because I'm like, this is a sin. This is a problem. But this is a disordered

love, and the depths of hell is the absence of love, right? So really when you get into pride, that's when you're really freezing. Your heart is freezing. It's just like, we're trying to reorder your loves. And what you're saying here is so good. It's like, it's connected to dad. It's connected to your friends. It's connected.

It's all about these relationships. And that's why these things kind of get, they got to just kind of continue to be worked out. But when we try and just intensify and then we kind of freeze up and then we get more and more, beat ourselves off and isolate, then we get into more and more trouble. And it's just like, yeah. And do you think this is why the Lord allows us to fall? To prevent us from a greater sin at times? You know what?

You wonder sometimes. This is the thorn in the flesh that Paul's talking about. That is interesting, because I don't know how many times I've said in confession, like if somebody reads an entire list of sins, and then I say, I'll ask him to base the penance on it, which one of those is heaviest on your heart? And they will almost always say the sexual sins.

Why is it that the sexual sin holds shame in a way that others don't? Is it because it's tied to the body? What is it? I think so. Because it's us. Like, it's us. It's not this thing that I did to this other person. It's not a cerebral, intellectual...

Yeah, it's not like it's a bad thought I had, or it's not like I stole five bucks because I wanted whatever. It's my very being that I have like violated that I've screwed up. And it's like something that's just and I think it just goes against. It's just like it's like when you're like like 12 years old, you see like easy porn or you like hook up with like your first girl. And it just feels like and even perhaps you really perhaps you like really don't know why I think it's because there's just this like part of it where it's like I'm not made for this like and and like you just it's like it just hurts you in a like in a way that um I don't know if we really

understand it yet and I've taken like tons of like TOB stuff and I'm still trying to like come come to terms with like how the things I did in like high school have like screwed me up as like a 35-year-old man because I did it to myself. There's something about like that, you know. And it's so existentially isolating. We talk about this in Colorado with marijuana. You know, marijuana is unlike alcohol or smoking tobacco. You tend to want to be alone or isolated even if you're with friends. There's a sense of just be, and when you have sexual sin, even if it's like fornication or something

with somebody else, there's still this real sense of this should be much more communal, open to life, committed for life, etc. And yet it is, I have isolated myself, and I think when we're alone in that way, in the isolated way, that's when shame, we have no defense, because we have nobody else to tell us, don't be shamed. Where we're alone in that way, in the isolated way, that's when shame, we have no defense because we have nobody else to tell us, don't be shamed.

Where we're utterly alone with the devil who's just poking at us and saying, shame, shame, shame. We're coming to a close here with the podcast. And I'd love for all of us maybe just to offer some advice, advice that we've taken on that's really helped us or something that we would love to say to somebody who's struggling right now with scrupulosity. I can start with that real quick. Antidote, my friend who's a Dominican now with scrupulosity? I can start with that real quick. An anecdote.

My friend who's a Dominican just said this off the cuff to me one time, and it was one of these moments. It was like a real paradigm shift for me personally. He just said, because I'm in graduate school, and so I'm in my head all the time, and I lose. I lose things. I lose God a lot because I get abstracted. Everything's just become kind of Hegelian.

And he said, John, the truth is outside of you. The truth is outside of you. And I would say that to the person struggling with scrupulosity, that the truth is not in here. You're trying to conform your intellect to the truth, but it's outside of you. So don't get fooled into thinking that you can figure it out on your own. You've got to conform it to the reality,

and you need the help of others for that. Yeah. I would say what I've found is good advice is when it comes to anger and frustration with others and ourselves, once we remember that we were created in the image and likeness of God, that the deepest core of us is perfect and beloved. And this sounds kind of hokey, but it's so true that it doesn't matter how much I or anybody else has built up sin and just seem to have defiled everything, there's still that core that we need to find every once in a while in somebody else or in ourselves that is

completely pure. And we can find that again. And I think if we begin to even disagree that that core is there, that's when we've fallen into a sense of a spiral that feels like we can't get out of it. But it's just incredibly true that that's there. We need to remember that. Sure. I would say go to counseling to get the tools that you're going to need to like fight through it when it does happen. So it's not about, I mean, perhaps you will have like healing, but it really is about getting the tools that you need. Just like with me and my like speech impediment, I'm not expecting to be fine.

It's about how to be fluent, how to like maintain that. And I think the same thing applies with when you like have to deal with this stuff. It's like, how do I, like what are the tools that I really have to have to try to confront this? Yeah. I'd like to kind of conclude today's podcast with perhaps my favorite quote from a saint ever. So if you all are listening out there and you're struggling with believing that God loves you,

let this beat the crap out of you. Okay, first let me tell you my cool little anecdote, and then I'll tell you his way classier and more articulate. I have this idea that my sin against God's mercy is like me against a UFC fighter. So it's like if I get into a cage or whatever the heck they call it, how long until I'm in the fetal position sucking my thumb? Like that's, that's like, it's all right. Here's a much more articulate way of saying it. This comes from Saint Claude de la Colomiere, who was the spiritual

director of Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque, who received the visions of the sacred heart. He says this, quote, I glorify you, talking to God, I glorify you in making known how good you are towards sinners, and that your mercy prevails over all malice, that nothing can destroy it, that no matter how many times or how shamefully we fall or how criminally, a sinner need never be driven to despair of your pardon. It is in vain that your enemy and mine sets new traps for me daily. He will make me lose everything else

before the hope that I have in your mercy. Glory to God. Amen. Glory forever. All right. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Pints with Aquinas on Scrupulosity. I hope you enjoyed it. I had such a great time at SEEK once again. So big thanks to everybody who was there. What was funny is we organized a Pints with Aquinas meetup in Indianapolis while we were there. And since I'm not terrific at organizing, it went like this. Basically on Sunday night, I said, hey, Kay, like, you know, 8.30pm and we'll meet at this Irish pub. Well, it turns out that Matt Marr and Need to Breathe were playing

at that time. And I chose a pub that was like two miles away. So how not to run a successful Pints with Aquinas meetup? I mean, how cocky am I? All right, when's a good time? Need to breathe a playing? How about then? Okay, good. And instead of being like, you know, a five-minute walk,

how about we make it so that you have to drive, even though you don't have a car, because you flew in for this conference. So anyway, that's what I did. But we had about 50 people showed up anyway, and we drank and we chatted, and it was just fantastic. If you're one of the people who came there, a big thanks. Also, finally, please go and check out our new Aquinas merch. As I said, I'll put a link right up the top there. It's only available for a few more weeks to celebrate Aquinas' feast day, so be sure to go and get a baby onesie

or a Hanes sweater or a hoodie or a Pints with Aquinas mug or anything like that and represent. God bless. Chat with you next week. Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive?

And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you.