Pints With Aquinas - 142: Excommunicating Andrew Cuomo

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we're going to ask Aquinas whether the church should excommunicate anyone. Yes, I'm bloody looking at you, Cuomo. Today there, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today we're going to be talking about excommunication. We're going to be reading from the supplementary section of the Summa Theologiae to see what Aquinas had to say about it.

Starting point is 00:00:50 One of the questions he poses is, should the church be excommunicating anybody at all? And interestingly enough, some of the objections he sets himself to knock down are objections that we're hearing from certain Catholics today, unfortunately. So we'll get to that in a minute. Obviously, the reason I'm bringing this up is because there's this bloody New York governor, Andrew Cuomo, who just very enthusiastically helped pass the Reproductive Health Act, as it's called. We should say a word about euphemisms, shouldn't we, before we go on? It's like we refuse to look at abortion directly in the face because it's so bloody despicable. So we have to call it things like women's health and the freedom to choose. Reproductive Health Act, even abortion itself is a euphemism. This reminds me of a quote

Starting point is 00:01:48 from George Orwell from his excellent book, 1984. If you haven't read it, consider doing it immediately or as soon as possible. He said, but if thought corrupts language, language also corrupts thought. So if we refuse to speak about abortion and we kind of hide the reality of it behind all of this euphemistic language, it'll corrupt our thought. I saw this rather despicable video online a couple of weeks back of some bloody woman explaining to a young girl why there was nothing to fear when it came to getting an abortion. It was just like getting your teeth cleaned. And she said how the doctor, doctor, quote unquote, almost like Andrew Cuomo is a Catholic, quote unquote, just removed the pregnancy from her. Remove the pregnancy from her. Do you mean somebody killed your child and that you were okay with this, that you paid

Starting point is 00:02:45 for this to happen? Or no, no, no, no. This was an abortion. This is reproductive rights. This is choice. We have to do it to continue in this insanity, it would seem. So what I want to do before going any further is I want to share a clip from live action where somebody who used to perform abortions explains what it's like to kill a child right before its due date. So if you're a little squeamish, feel free to skip for the next couple of minutes. And if you have little ears around, you might want to do that too. But he doesn't get terribly graphic. I mean, it's graphic, but he's not gratuitous in his language. Here it is.

Starting point is 00:03:41 My name is Dr. Anthony Levitino. I'm a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and I've performed over 1,200 abortions. Today, I'm going to describe a third trimester induced abortion, which is performed at 25 weeks to term. At this point, the baby is almost fully developed and viable, meaning he or she could survive outside the womb if the mother were to go into labor prematurely. Because the baby is so large and developed, this procedure takes three or four days to complete. On day one, the abortionist uses a large needle to inject a drug called digoxin. Digoxin is generally used to treat heart problems, but a high enough dosage of digoxin will cause fatal cardiac arrest. The abortionist inserts the needle with the digoxin through the woman's abdomen or through her vagina and into the baby, targeting either the head, torso, or heart. The baby will feel it. Babies at this stage

Starting point is 00:04:31 feel pain. When the needle pierces the baby's body and the digoxin takes effect, the life of the baby will end. The abortionist then inserts multiple sticks of seaweed called laminaria into the woman's cervix. They will slowly open up the cervix for delivery of a stillborn baby. While the woman waits for the laminaria to dilate her cervix, she carries her dead baby inside of her for two to three days. On day two, the abortionist replaces the laminaria and may perform a second ultrasound to ensure the baby is dead. If the child is still alive, he administers another lethal dose of digoxin.

Starting point is 00:05:09 The woman then goes back to where she is staying while her cervix continues to dilate. If she goes into labor and is unable to make it to the clinic in time, she will give birth at home or in a hotel. In this case, she may be advised to deliver her baby into a bathroom toilet. The abortionist then comes to remove the baby and clean up. If she can make it to the clinic, she will do so during her severest contractions and deliver her dead son or daughter. If the baby does not come out whole, then the procedure becomes a D&E, a dilation and evacuation, and the abortionist uses clamps and forceps to dismember the baby piece by piece.

Starting point is 00:05:49 Once the placenta and all the body parts have been removed, the abortion is complete. Late-term abortions have a high risk of hemorrhage, lacerations, and uterine perforations, as well as a risk of maternal death. Future pregnancies are also at a greater risk for loss or premature delivery due to abortion-related trauma and injury to the cervix. As I mentioned at the beginning, I'm Dr. Anthony Levitino, and in the early part of my career as an OB-GYN, I performed over 1,200 abortions. One day, after completing one of those abortions,

Starting point is 00:06:22 I looked at the remains of a pre-born child whose life I had ended, and all I could see was someone's son or daughter. I came to realize that killing a baby at any stage of pregnancy for any reason is wrong. I want you to know today, no matter where you're at or what you've done, you can change. Make a decision today to protect the pre-born. Thank you for your time. I will no longer do any more abortions. When you finally figure out that killing a baby that big for money is wrong, that it doesn't take you too long to figure out it doesn't matter if the baby is this big or this big or this big, or maybe even this big, it's all the same.

Starting point is 00:07:02 And I haven't done any since then, and I never will. Now, consider the fact that we just called this bloody piece of legislation the Reproductive Health Act. I want you to listen to the applause that burst forth when Andrew Cuomo signed this piece of legislation. And just one other note, it's pretty despicable, actually. Right before he signs it, he makes a joke. He says, oh, after all, God, the pen doesn't work. Have a listen. After all, God, the pen doesn't work. It's in my purse. Congratulations. Yay! The ability to kill our children and dismember them in the womb. Absolutely bloody despicable. And of course, what's even worse is that Governor Cuomo claims to be a Catholic.

Starting point is 00:07:58 It's not like he's just signing this legislation into law. He actually celebrated. This was done on the anniversary of Roe versus Wade. And Cuomo actually directed the World Trade Center and other landmarks to be lit pink to celebrate the signing of this disgusting act. Interestingly, when I went online just to kind of educate myself again how a third trimester abortion worked, right, because I had obviously done research on this before, but I was just trying to brush up for this interview. It was impossible for me to find a pro-life article. I mean, I couldn't find one. I just typed in third trimester abortion procedure. You can't find it. The first few bloody pages are all of this leftist pro-choice propaganda stuff, anti-science stuff. And so I

Starting point is 00:08:54 had to go to actual sites that I knew would carry this sort of information to get that. So thanks to live action for that. All right. So why wouldn't you excommunicate this fellow? Why wouldn't you? Now, some people are going to say, well, he excommunicated himself. Aquinas actually has some interesting things to say about that, namely that one cannot excommunicate themselves. That said, my understanding, I'm not an expert here, is that perhaps the law has changed somewhat and that I guess someone can excommunicate themselves. That said, wouldn't it be nice to have a public denunciation of this fellow from, say, Dolan? But interestingly enough, Dolan has said that he won't excommunicate him.

Starting point is 00:09:39 Here we go. Through a spokesperson, he said that he would, quote, not discuss any individual, but that excommunication should not be used through a spokesperson. He said that he would, quote, not discuss any individual, but that excommunication should not be used as a weapon. Too often, I fear, those who call for someone's excommunication do so out of anger or frustration. Yeah, I'm pretty frustrated. I think most decent people are pretty angry that someone who's claiming to be a Catholic and uses his Catholicism to justify being, quote-unquote, pro-choice. There's another euphemism, you know, pro-the-slaughtering-of-the-unborn. So, interestingly enough, I think we could take that from Dolan, this idea of excommunication

Starting point is 00:10:19 being used as a weapon and see what Aquinas might say in response to that. But I do want to say, it's actually been nice to see there's been a couple of bishops that have supported the idea that this guy ought to be excommunicated. So, Bishop Rick Stieker said, excommunication is to be not a punishment, but to bring the person back into the church. It's like medicine for them. But this vote is so hideous and vile that it warrants the act. But thankfully, I am not in that position. Very sad. And then Bishop Strickland, who's just a bloody champion and ought to be Pope one day.

Starting point is 00:11:03 That'd be nice, I think. Said this. He quoted Bishop Stieker, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, in a tweet, and he said, I'm not in a position to take action regarding legislation in New York, but I implore bishops who are to speak out forcefully. In any sane society, this is called infanticide. any sane society, this is called infanticide. And I know that people get really uncomfortable when I quote, what's his name? Michael Voris. I've actually had some speaking engagements canceled because I have referenced church militant. And like I said, in my interview with Michael Voris on my YouTube channel, you don't have to like him. You can think he's messed

Starting point is 00:11:43 up. You can think he's angry. You can think some of the things he says are false. Maybe they are. I'm not defending him. But you'll remember if you watch that video, I said, how about instead of whining about how he's angry, point out why he's wrong. Like if he's wrong, great. Let's start a website that helps educate Catholics about the errors and inaccuracies of Michael Voris. In fact, I think knowing Michael a little bit, he'd probably be open to that, right? Because what he's after, I think, is the truth. Now, again, you don't have to like him. Fine. I don't care if you like him or not. But one of the things he said I thought was rather interesting. What would have to happen for Andrew Cuomo to be excommunicated? What if he was in,

Starting point is 00:12:22 say, some basement of the cathedral performing abortions, or allowed for that, or forced that upon this particular structure, the church itself? Would that do? Let's look at what Aquinas has to say in the Summa Theologiae. As I say, the very first thing he deals with is sort of what Dolan's talking about, this idea that the church shouldn't excommunicate people because it's kind of like a punishment and it shouldn't be used as a weapon. All right. So yeah, agreed. Here's what the objection is that Aquinas sets himself. He says, it would seem that the church ought not to excommunicate anyone because excommunication is a kind of curse and we are forbidden to curse. Therefore, the church should not excommunicate.

Starting point is 00:13:13 Speaking of church militant, here's the second objection. Further, the church militant should imitate the church triumphant. Now we read in the epistle of Jude that when Michael the archangel disputing with the devil contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said, the Lord commanded thee. Therefore, the church militant ought not to judge any man by cursing or excommunicating him. Here's the third objection. Further, no man should be given into the hands of his enemies unless there be no hope for him. Now, by excommunication, a man is given into the hands of Satan, as is clear from 1 Corinthians 5. Since then, we should never give up hope about anyone in this life.

Starting point is 00:13:55 The church should not excommunicate anyone. I think what's interesting about that is that, yeah, that sounds kind of like what people are saying today. And I'm not picking on Dolan specifically, but other people have said things like that as well. All right, here's the said contra. On the contrary, the apostle ordered a man to be excommunicated. That'll do it. 1 Corinthians 5.5. So if Catholic says you ought not to excommunicate anyone, you shouldn't do it. The Catholic Church shouldn't do it. All you got to do is like, the church did do it,

Starting point is 00:14:31 and it was an apostle, and it's in like 1 Corinthians 5.5. So maybe that's a precedent. I don't know. Just saying. And then he continues, Further, it is written in Matthew 18.17 about the man who refuses to hear the church. Let him be to thee as the heathen or publican. But heathens are outside the church.

Starting point is 00:14:54 Therefore, they also who refuse to hear the church should be banished from the church by excommunication. That would seem to apply to Andrew Cuomo. Now, look, there's a lot of people who disagree with the church who are Catholic and who are perhaps committing abominations and who are heretics and who are encouraging people to sin gravely. But when we talk about this governor of New York, we're talking about a public figure. For the church not to take an incredibly strong stance against this individual is a scandal. It essentially says to Andrew Cuomo, look, it doesn't, you know, I mean, you know, we don't agree, but, you know, like, we wish you hadn't have done this. Whereas it should be like, you're probably going to burn

Starting point is 00:15:43 in hell. That's not good. You need to repent. And of course, that is the point of excommunication, which is something we'll get to. So, here's Aquinas' respondio. Okay, here's the main response to the idea that the church shouldn't be excommunicating anyone. Aquinas says, the judgment of the church should be conformed to the judgment of God. Now, God punishes the sinner in many ways in order to draw him to good, either by chastising him with stripes or by leaving him to himself so that being deprived of those helps whereby he was kept out of evil, he may acknowledge his weakness and humbly return to God who he had abandoned in his pride. In both these respects,

Starting point is 00:16:27 the church, by passing sentences of excommunication, imitates the judgment of God. For by severing a man from the communion of the faithful, that he may blush with shame. She imitates the judgment whereby God chastises man with stripes and by depriving him of prayers and other spiritual things, she imitates the judgment of God in leaving man to himself in order that by humility he may learn to know himself and return to God. So, in other words, this is an act of love on the part of the church. So, Dolan's right. This is not a weapon that we use to hurt people. This is medicinal in nature. It's intended to show that person, you are in grave danger of spending eternity in hell. Repent. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church priests authorized by them. In danger of death, any priest,

Starting point is 00:17:50 even the deprived of faculties, even if deprived of faculties, for hearing confessions can absolve from every sin and excommunication. But again, this is medicinal, just like God punishes the sinner to humble him so that he will repent, so the church acts likewise. Now, here's the responses to the objections we mentioned earlier. You'll remember the first objection Aquinas offered was that it's a curse of sorts and we shouldn't be cursing people. So, here's what Aquinas says in response to that. A curse may be pronounced in two ways. First, so that the intention of the one who curses is fixed on the evil which he invokes or pronounces, and cursing in this sense is altogether forbidden. Secondly, so that the evil which a man invokes in cursing is intended for the good of the one who is cursed, and thus cursing is sometimes lawful and salutary. There's the analogy right there.

Starting point is 00:19:02 What else do I have to say? Just as a physician may have to cause a certain amount of pain in order to save the individual, so the church may have to use excommunication to curse, if you want, if you want to use it in that sense, cause pain to this individual so that the individual may not be lost for all eternity and may repent. You'll remember the second objection had to do with handing someone over to the devil and that we ought not to do that by excommunicating them. Here's Aquinas' response. It's one sentence. He says, the devil cannot be brought to repentance. Wherefore, the pain of excommunication cannot do him any good. So, the angels, the fallen angels, right? Their wills are set, they cannot and will not ever repent if they are the demonic angels, nor can they fall from grace if they are the blessed angels. Here is the third objection here. In regards to excommunication by a man given to the hands of Satan.

Starting point is 00:20:27 We shouldn't give up on people, right, basically. And here's the response to that. He says, from the very fact that a man is deprived of the prayers of the church, he incurs a triple loss corresponding to three things which a man acquires through the church's prayers. For they bring an increase of grace to those who have it or merit grace for those who have it not. And in this respect, the master of sentences says, the grace of God is taken away by excommunication. They also prove a safeguard of virtue. And in this respect, he says that protection is taken away, not that the excommunicated person is withdrawn altogether from God's providence, but that he is excluded from that protection with which he

Starting point is 00:21:12 watches over the children of the church in a more special way. Moreover, they are useful as a defense against the enemy. And in this respect, he says that the devil receives greater power of assaulting the excommunicated persons, both spiritually and corporally. Hence, in the early church, when men had to be enticed to the faith by means of outward signs, thus the gift of the Holy Spirit was shown openly by a visible sign, so too excommunication was evidenced by a person being troubled in his body by the devil. Nor is it unreasonable that one for whom there is still hope be given over to the enemy, for he is surrendered not unto damnation, but unto correction, since the church has the power to rescue him from the hands of the enemy whenever he is willing. So again, excommunication is not a punishment. It is a medicinal act that is meant to humble this sinner, remind him that he is in grave

Starting point is 00:22:17 danger of spending eternity in hell so that he might repent. And what's been troubling to me is I'm not hearing a lot of bishops and priests talking about the supernatural consequences of Andrew Cuomo and those people who would support abortion in general. I'm hearing things like, it's sad that this has happened. We wish it wouldn't. All of God's creatures deserve respect. And you think, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. But I just don't know. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're out there, you're like, no, I know heaps of bishops that are talking about Andrew Cuomo maybe going to hell and abortion doctors doing this, and they could go to hell unless they repent and how this is a diabolical thing. I'm not hearing it.

Starting point is 00:23:05 And I have to think if I'm not hearing it, given how kind of plugged in I am to all this, that it's just not really happening. And to be honest, I can't remember hearing a bishop actually speak that way. That isn't just crap on bishops. I think one of the things I want to do in this podcast is celebrate two very awesome bishops, in particular, Bishop Strickland and Bishop Rick Stieker. So if you follow them on Twitter, I'm going to throw up their Twitter handles in today's show notes. Why don't you send them a tweet and say, thank you for being a good bishop. We need courageous bishops and priests and lay people right now. It seems to me that there is a very tender relationship between these pro-death states like New York and the church. And my suspicion is,

Starting point is 00:23:54 and I don't think it's far-fetched, if the church were to go out and thoroughly denounce this wicked and reprehensible action and excommunicate certain individuals, that the state would turn on the church and that things would not go well for the church. But I can't help but think a better thing to do that than for us to go to hell by causing scandal by being quiet. Why not let the chips fall where they may? What if New York confiscated all of our churches? Okay, let the church go underground, but let the church be faithful. Let the church be poor and weak, but let the church be faithful. Again, I'm going to throw up the handles there. And I think we should just keep this positive by just praising these bishops because you have to think that there's a lot of very good bishops out there, just like you and me, who want to be brave, who want to say things as honestly as we can.

Starting point is 00:24:53 Now, I can't tell you how much hate I'm going to get from this podcast. I can't tell you how many Whenever I bring up a controversial issue, whenever I suggest that certain clergymen might not be doing the best job, I experience repercussions, repercussions that I haven't even spoken about publicly. And I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back or to call myself a hero. I'm just saying, if I feel that way, how much more must a bishop feel? that way, how much more must a bishop feel? And so, if a bishop feels like you've got his back when he does something right, then I think we might see bishops who are men, just like you and me, become more courageous and more willing to be manful and just faithful Christians like Bishop Rick Stieker and Bishop Strickland, and I'm sure many other bishops that I'm not naming and I'm not that aware of. Hey, look, I just want to say a big thanks to all of you who support the work of Pints with Aquinas and the Matt Fradd Show.

Starting point is 00:25:57 I'm doing the Bible History Podcast as well. One of the great things about being independent is I can say things like this, even if they ruffle feathers. If you believe in the work that I'm doing and you want to support me financially, you can do that. I'm currently setting up a donation page on pintswithaquinas.com if you want to give directly that way, or you can support me on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. Honestly, like five bucks a month, two bucks a month, 10 bucks a month. It's those little constant gifts that allow me to do what I'm doing. And a big thanks to all of you who are helping me. And if you're listening, you're like, I don't want to support you. That's also totally fine. Would you pray for me? Would you offer a Hail Mary for me and my family? And that I could try my best

Starting point is 00:26:39 to speak the truth in love. One of the difficult things about being a quote unquote public personality, which I guess to some extent we all are if we have a Twitter handle, is that you have a lot more responsibility. And you realize the inadequacies that you have in speaking. You might be a coward and say something lovingly, quote-unquote, like syrupy, but there's no substance to it. Or you might say something that's true, but you might not do it with charity. And of course, I think sometimes this is a difficult thing, but I want to get this difficult thing down. So please pray for me and please pray for my family. Why don't we pray for Andrew Cuomo? And why don't we also pray for those in New York that they might make a thorough denunciation of this treacherous bill

Starting point is 00:27:26 and call the governor, Andrew Cuomo, to repentance. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. St. Thomas Aquinas, pray for us.

Pints With Aquinas - 142: Excommunicating Andrew Cuomo

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