Pints With Aquinas - 157: Discerning and living your vocation LIVE from Washing D.C.

Episode Date: May 7, 2019

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G'day and welcome to Points with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over Thomas Aquinas... Over Thomas Aquinas? No. Crap. How did I get that wrong? It's like the 155th time I've said that. If you could sit down over a beer with Thomas Aquinas. Not over Thomas Aquinas with a pint of beer. That just seems... I don't... What would that be? You know, rude. It would be rude. Anyway, if you could ask Aquinas any one question, what would it be? Today we are joined around the bar table in this live episode of Pints with Aquinas with Father Gregory Pine to discuss your vocation, baby. All right. Welcome back to Points of Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a bar

stall next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. This was a super fun podcast. It was live in Washington, D.C. A bunch of folks came out. We had a lot of fun. I think you're going to really enjoy the energy of this episode. Plus, I share a few stories that I've never shared before, which I think you're going to find very intriguing. One of them, I had to add some little beeps over, not because I was swearing, although I do think I do swear in this, but nothing too drastic, but because I was swearing, although I do think I do swear in this, but nothing too drastic, but because I was mentioning some people's names and I didn't want to incriminate them. Anyway, you'll see what I mean when you come to that point. But before we get into that, I want to let you know that the t-shirts, non-nicite domine,

t-shirts, sweaters, mugs, stickers, all sorts of cool things are now available, but they're only available for seven days. And these look terrific. They look and feel terrific. They've been designed really well. And the shirts are very soft and they are a great conversation starter. I told you last week that towards the end of his life, Thomas Aquinas had a vision of our Lord who said to him, Thomas, you've written well of me. What would you have as your reward? And whereas I would have said like a Jeep and a trip to Russia, Aquinas says, nothing if not you, Lord, which is really a great thing to say. Obviously, it should sum up our life. Nothing if not you, Lord. That's what I want. I love that phrasing of it too, because it's not denying the goods of the world that our Lord might want for us. It's saying, I want all

of the goods, but I don't want them if I can't have you, because you're the primary good. You're the fulfillment of all my desire, ultimately. So anyway, those t-shirts, et cetera, are all available right now, but they're only available for seven days. Now we do this every four months or so. And every time we do them after the seventh day, I have a bunch of people rush in and tell me that they didn't get them on time and are they still available? And they're not because I use something called Teespring. And so I'm setting a limit on just seven days. And after that, you won't be able to get them. So click the link at the top of the show notes right now and that'll get you your cool swag. The other reason you should think about getting this right now is because it supports the work that I'm doing.

I just built a new set for the Matt Fradd Show and wasn't able to generate enough money for it, but I bought it anyway. And so I'm kind of a little in the hole, to be quite honest with you. So all of that money goes to support this work. It doesn't go to my family. It goes back into Pints with Aquinas and the Matt Fradd show. And so by buying the shirt, not only would you be choosing to become 15% more attractive, at least, okay, that's the bare minimum, right? But you'll also be supporting this. So go check that out. Link at the top of the show notes. Get a few things. Get something for a friend. Get a baby onesie. Everyone wants a baby onesie with non-nicite domine. Okay.

People with children. Okay. Geeky people with children. Okay. Geeky Catholic people with babies. You should have that. Oh, and be sure to stick around to the end of the episode. Don't turn it off when it ends because it's not ended yet. I'm going to be sharing with you some commentary on the Lord's Prayer from St. Thomas Aquinas, specifically around the petition, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, since that clearly applies to what we're talking about today, vocations. Okay, here we go. That clearly applies to what we're talking about today, vocations. Okay, here we go.

Hello, everyone. I'm Matt Hadro. I'm Catherine Hadro. We are your co-chairs for this year's Leonine Intellectual Committee. Thank you so much for coming out. We're really looking forward to what should be a very fruitful conversation. As you know, the Leonine Forum has been hosting a number of events throughout the years for its 300 plus alum, especially through its social service, spiritual, and intellectual committees. And this being the inaugural year for Lenine's intellectual committee, our goal really is to create events that draw fellows and alum

closer to the Lord through the mind. Because the more we know of our Lord and know of him through our intellect, the more we can love him. You can't love what you don't know. A few months back, Matt and I were driving and listening to a podcast episode of Pints with Aquinas. Pints with Aquinas with, thank you, ooh, corrected by the man himself. Yes, oops. And as we were listening to it, I think it was the episode on God and morality.

And as we were listening to it, we were just growing in our awe for the Lord and in awe of his greatness. And at the end of the episode, I remember clearly thinking, I now love God more because of that. So Matt, this Matt, and I realized that Matt Fradd, especially through his pints with Aquinas podcast, is achieving what we hope to accomplish through this committee, to bring

people closer to Christ through the mind, which brings me to tonight's introductions. Matt Fradd speaks to tens of thousands of people every year. He is the best-selling author of several books, including Does God Exist?, a Socratic dialogue on the five ways of Thomas Aquinas, and The Porn Myth, exposing the reality behind the fantasy of pornography. Matt earned his master's and undergraduate degrees in philosophy from Holy Apostles College

and is pursuing a master's degree in theology from the Augustan Institute. Not true. No, I quit it. You quit. Not your fault. Matt's podcast, Pints with Aquinas, receives hundreds of thousands of downloads every month.

Matt lives with his wife, Cameron, and their children in Georgia. Tonight, Matt Fradd will be speaking with Father Gregory Pine. Father Gregory Pine, a Dominican, currently serves as the Assistant Director of Campus Outreach for the Thomistic Institute. He previously served as an Associate Pastor at St. Louis Bertrand Church in Louisville, Kentucky, where he also taught as an Adjunct Professor at Bellarmine University. Father Gregory Pine entered the Order of Preachers in 2010 and was ordained a priest in 2016. He holds an STL from the Dominican House of Studies here in Washington, D.C.

We'll let them take it from here, but first let's give them a warm welcome. Thank you very much. It's super great to be here. Every other time I've been invited to come and do something like this, it's been at a rowdy pub. I was pleasantly surprised when I walked through the doors and everyone was very polite and whispering to me. And I was speaking with the hosts a couple of months ago, I think,

about what my favourite drink was. And again, I thought I was just at some pub, you know. So I said, just a whisky would be lovely. They said, what's your favourite whisky? I said, well, I mean Lagavulin, but I wouldn't expect you to. I'm not saying to you. If you want to, that's. And so they've bought me a bottle of like really expensive scotch.

And Father, did you tell them that? I did, yeah. Unrepentantly. And this is bourbon.bon yeah so they literally bought us a bottle each so tonight is going to become increasingly incoherent and it's going to be fantastic so i'm just super glad to be here um yeah just a bit about pints with aquinas before we get into the discussion. I started Pints with Aquinas three years ago. I tried in vain to get more credit for my master's degree by starting this podcast before kind of podcasts were really a thing, at least in the Catholic space. And I thought, like, what should I call it, you know?

And some of the best conversations I've ever had have been over a drink, you know, like two in the morning at a pub in Ottawa, Canada, trying to convince someone why pornography is stupid, you know, or laying on a gravel road with my mates at the age of 16 and looking up at the stars. This is what people did when they were interesting before iPhones. We would look up at the stars and just be like, crap, that's pretty frigging cool. You know, like how did that happen? And we'd talk about God and faith and things like that so yeah it's been a real joy I see it as coaxing the angelic doctor out of the tower the ivory tower of academia giving him several pints and having him chat with the riffraff like me, you know, so that's what it's been about.

And Father Gregory Pine has been on the show a few times now, and it's always a bloody treat to have him on. I don't know if you know Father Gregory or not, but he's 30, and yet 30 times smarter than you. So it's pretty, no, 30 times smarter than me. So I always learn a lot from from from our chats and I was thinking today we could talk about vocations and discerning our vocation and all that sort of stuff obviously there's almost like a crisis in vocation in the

sense that there's a crisis in what it means to be man or woman what our end is what marriage is and so on so I wanted to talk about that today, and maybe we'll talk for about 30 or 40 minutes and then open it up for some Q&A, and that'd be great. And I hope you continue to drink throughout tonight, so that when I say any questions, your inhibitions will have been totally shut down, and you'll be able to chat. How you doing? I'm doing well, thanks, yeah. How are you? I'm lovely. Yeah. It's good to be here in DC. It's a delight, yeah. This is being recorded, do you know that? I've heard, yeah. I don't know how because it's not connected to anything. Nor I, yeah. So this will be on the podcast. So first tell me of your love for bourbon. Gladly. So my last assignment was in Louisville, Kentucky,

and 95% of bourbon is made in Kentucky. It's only, strictly speaking, necessary that it be made in the United States of America. That's right. But the climate in Kentucky is propitious. So they find it especially good to make it there. And whenever people come to Kentucky, they're like, what do I do here? They typically want to see something pertaining to horses, and then they want to drink whiskey. So whiskey tourism became like one of my side jobs when hosting guests, as a result of which I developed a taste, and I'm glad to know a bit about it. Were you going through these distilleries

in your habit? No, not necessarily. But at times, you know, who's to say? This particular one, this particular distillery, I'm drinking Henry McKenna Tenure. It's owned by Heaven Hill, and Heaven Hill is one of the few distilleries that is still American-owned. Really? One of the few? One of the few, yeah. As we sit under this very patriotic painting here of the framers of the Constitution,

which makes you think of, like, waving like B-2 bombers and American Eagles. You know, it's good to drink an American spirit. All right. So when I was in Kentucky, I went to, and you can tell me how many of these are American-owned still, four roses. Japanese. No. Yeah. Keep going.

I don't have roses in Japan. I'm from Australia. I know nothing. And then I went to, what's that bloody one, Woodford Reserve? Actually, I don't know who owns them. And then I went to some other joint. Right. Yeah, most of them are owned by Japanese.

Really? Yeah. That's disappointing. Yeah, it is. But Heaven Hill, man. Delicious. Oh, and there's another one. I don't know if you know this or not.

Gosh, what's it bloody called? Basil Hayden's. Yeah, made by Jim Beam, owned by Suntory, Japanese. Son of a nutcracker. But do you know, this is what they tell me, that the Basil Hayden's bottle is made after a priest's vestments. Fascinating. The pre-medical vestments. Fascinating. The pre-Ethic vestments.

Oh, yeah, like the, I got you. You know, it's got the thing and the thing. I can see that. I heard that one of the Haydens was a Catholic, and that's what they told me. Have you heard the same thing? I've heard that he was a Catholic, yeah. I don't know if any of that's true, but it's nice.

So being from Australia, I just love the idea of the South. I don't even know what I mean by that, you know? You hear the South and I just think sleepy dog, rocking chair, shotguns, bourbon, porches, fireflies, and all of that sounds delightful. And like Nicholas Sparks novels. No idea. What's that? The Notebook. Don't worry about it. Anyway, so I'm not from the South. I actually am from the South, just really bloody far down. Eh.

Yeah. Far South. People say, you're not from the South. I'm like, yes, I bloody am. Further down than you are. But lovely. All right. Yeah, the South is charming.

All of your dreams, all of your kind of fantasies as regards to south they're all true i wonder if it's our love of the idea of the south that keeps the reality of that idea alive that is to say culture has almost been obliterated through mass technology and yeah and so it's not really the case necessarily that you'd show up at someone's house or in someone's community in the south and it'd be much different to the northeast although it bloody well is and I wonder why that is and I wonder if it isn't because people pride themselves on this idea of the south you know

does that make sense like it hasn't necessarily been sustained by culture but it's something we want to sustain and so that does it I'm of the mind that people who have been beaten tend to retain their culture more fiercely. Like the Irish? Like the Irish, for instance. Yeah, they lose so many wars, but they sing so

many good songs. And like the Boston Red Sox? Bit different. Yeah, they've won a bit in the more recent history, but like the South, for instance, I think the South is the South because they lost the war. That's not to weigh in on why or to what end, but just to say that they have a very consolidated identity

as having been beaten and being resentful as a result. Not bad resentful, but not northern. It's good. Does the underdog thing tend to galvanize you against the rest? So I was in Louisville, which is in the Ohio River Valley, which is basically like Cincinnati light, so I know nothing about the south. And I'm also from Pennsylvania, which was a free colony, I might add, you know.

Cheers to Quakerism. But so I think at that point, anything that I say about the South will be completely made up. All right, let's continue on to Aquinas then. So let's talk about vocations. I shared this story with you, but for those of you who are here,

talking about the beauty of the religious life and the married state, I wanted to share a this story with you, but for those of you who are here, talking about the beauty of the religious life and the married state, I wanted to share a true story with you that I'm not sure if I've shared elsewhere. And it would be terribly misunderstood, I think, if I was just to share it without much context, but here we go. I was laying in bed one morning. My wife and I had woken up to the sound of crashing and yelling and screaming and arguing, you know, the kids, you know. So I was laying on my wife's chest, you know, bloody hell,

you know, stuff everywhere, you know, suitcases open for some reason and just clothes everywhere and loudness. And none of the people in my family are introverted, so they all like to be around me. I'll go to the bathroom and they'll follow me. And I said to my wife as I was laying there, I said, do you remember that sign, darling? It said, if I could do it all over again, I'd find you sooner so I could love you longer. She said, yeah.

I said, I think I'd be a Dominican. That's all. So anyway, to quote our friend Father Damien Ference, it's not greener pastures over there. It's just brown everywhere. Begin with pessimism and your only way is up. But let's just begin with a very simple, but maybe a question that might shed some light on this. What do we mean by vocation? When I was in high school, we had a vocation director.

So what do we mean by vocation generally? And then what is a religious vocation? vocation generally and then what is a religious vocation sure so vocation in general just means a calling as it were and whenever you have a calling you have to have a caller so when it comes to vocation god is the protagonist nice good choice i'll pour you a drink if you just bring me a cup gluggedy glug um so in the case of in the case of uhation, whether it be to marriage or religious life or priesthood, God himself is the initiator of the work. So when we speak of a vocation, we're talking about something that God calls forth, that he elicits, but basically that he creates in us. But not without us in a certain sense, in as much as we have to consent to and cooperate with it, as a result of which it's something that's dramatic. It's something that's a kind of discovery. So, like St. Thomas will say, when we talk about beatitude, there are some persons for whom beatitude comes about as the result of no movements, which is a weird way of saying

God is his beatitude, okay? So, for God, there's no, like, there's no journey, as it were. When it comes to angels, for instance, they come to their end by one choice. Whereas for us, we do so as the fruit of many choices. And vocation is kind of the context or it's the peculiar shape in which we proceed from where we are to where we're going. So we're the kind of creature that only comes progressively into his or her identity. And a vocation is just how God chooses to do that in us specifically. So then, yeah, God has many ways

of drawing his sons and daughters into relationship with him. And each has its peculiar genius. So specifically with like a religious vocation, the idea there is, first, there are a lot of good things on offer in the world, right? And whenever you affirm one thing, you fail to affirm something else, right?

So like if I, you know, like say I'm in Atlanta and I'm looking for a breakfast joint, right? And if I pick Chick-fil-A and I get a Chick-fil-A and I get a Chick-fil-A chicken biscuit, four chicken minis and an orange, you know, an orange juice. You've done this before. Let's say it were $9.14, like theoretically. But in so choosing, I choose not to go to Bojangles, right? But so too with vocation, you know, whenever you choose one, you choose not others. But with

all goods, whenever you choose one, you choose not others. But with all goods, whenever you choose one, you choose not others. So the idea with a religious vocation is there is this cornucopia of goods, a panoply of goods. There are many goods. But when you affirm certain things, they demand your attention. So a religious says, I will set aside goods, like possessions. I'll set aside marriage and family. I'll set aside self-rule for the purpose of attending to the one thing necessary. And it's a kind of like crazed madness.

The religious, in a certain regard, is greedy. Like he wants to live heaven now. And that's true of all vocations in a certain regard. But in the religious life, you do it with a kind of vehemence, with a kind of single-mindedness. And so St. Thomas will say the religious offers himself as a whole burnt offering. So like in the Old Testament, you have all these different offerings, and you read the descriptions of them, and you're like, fascinating, like wave offering. I wonder what that looks like.

Like cereal offerings and oblations and tithes and firstfruits and et cetera. But there's one offering in which the entire host the entire victim is burned on the altar for god alone so nothing goes to the priest nothing goes to the offer nothing goes to the upkeep of the temple all of it just goes to god and he says this is an image of religious life basically by the vow of poverty you give your goods by the vow of chastity you give your body and by the vow of obedience you give your soul such that the whole man is taken up as a whole burnt offering a pleasing incense and the sight of god that's powerful and doesn't he talk about elaborate on this for us a little bit because he says we kind of give give up within like that the greatest pleasure that we can receive is sexual pleasure so we're kind of giving that up

we're giving things from without that is poverty and then obedience we're giving things from without, that is poverty, and then in obedience we're giving up what? I mean, I love how he put that, like within, without, like everything you're kind of sacrificing for God. Yeah, so poverty, it's like material possessions. Right. It's like having a cool car where the seat is actually adjusted to your height and the mirrors are adjusted to your vision, rather than every time you get in a car, you have to readjust everything

because you share it with 75 other men, for instance. Okay. Okay. And then, like, you know, goods of the body, and as much as, like, marriage and family are good things. And people talk about, like, how at different stages in religious life, there are different parts of that vow

which hurt more or less. But basically, like, I mean, to encapsulate it, you know, marriage is a peculiar type of friendship, you know. Yeah. C.S. Lewis says that, my wife loves this quote, that love is friendship caught on fire. Not in a violent sense. Sure.

But in the case of religious life, you have friends and excellent friends. And that has been one of the biggest boons of religious life for me and something for which I'm supremely grateful. But you don't have one person there all the time who's like there to remind you, one, that you're being a butthead, two, that you're overly self-involved, three, that you could stand to be less prideful, and four, that you should take out the trash.

You know, so like... Yeah, I thought about that because, you know, sometimes when I hear about people like yourself taking a vow of poverty, I'm like, you don't have to save your kid's college. Like, do you pay for your dental? I don't. In what way are you living a life of poverty?

That's a good question. It's good to be absolutely specific. So in what way am I living out a vow of poverty? Okay, specifically there are certain things that you forgo. So they're just off the table on account of the fact that, you know, the community can't pay for it. And I guess like, so secular priests don't take a vow of poverty. Yeah, but in truth, they live it. I mean, they live it.

Okay. Yeah. The joke among diocesan priests is that religious take a vow of poverty and we observe it. It's like, ooh, a deep burn. That's very good. Okay. I'm going to tell you one more joke in regard to that. I had a priest friend walk into another priest's rectory and went, whoa, if this is poverty, show me chastity.

Oh, no. A deep and awkward burn. So there are certain things you forego on account of the fact that there isn't you know like there isn't money there um because like you don't have credit and there isn't a pot you know there isn't like a pot with tons of hidden jewels yeah so there's certain things for which you just look at them and you say that would be nice but i won't have that you know and in a certain sense it kind of like constrains your imagination uh like formally my idea of happiness was like hiking vagrancy you know like i'm going to move to colorado i'm going

to generally neglect my hygiene i'm going to live in a tent and i'm going to hike 14 years like an absolute monster um but like that's off the table and as a result of which it doesn't even enter into my imagination yeah and anymore um so there's a kind of poverty that like sense like i also don't have hobbies you know like you call up your friends they're like i'm yachting this weekend and working on my calligraphy yeah and you're like i'm gonna stay inside and sit in a chair with poor lumbar support and a poorly lit room and i'm gonna read old books that smell like decay um but like i love it you know and i wouldn't want to go yachting or do calligraphy because my moral imagination has been shaped by the particular life that i've assumed and i just like want to go yachting or do calligraphy because my moral imagination has been shaped by the particular life that I've assumed.

And I just like want to know what's true in such a way that like, you know, it's just like it's a fire in my bones. That's cool. Yeah. When I think about it, if I was to become a priest, I think like first, the biggest sacrifice would be sex, to be frank about it. But I think honestly it would be probably obedience. I think that would be the most difficult thing. You know, and this is funny. It's kind of like this in married life.

You get married and you and your wife or husband pretty much want to do the same thing, like want to see the same movie, want to go out to dinner, want to do this or that. But once you have kids, that's where the obedience really comes into play because they don't care if you want a full night's sleep they'd like to scream all night please you know and and and things like that but uh yeah has how is that difficult being religious or so uh

obedience yeah it certainly cuts the most and um yeah i think that um you go from saying things in a kind of patronizing way to actually meaning them. You know, like sometimes we can say like, oh, you know, according to my own lights, I think this, that, and the other thing, but like perhaps he knows better on account of the fact that he has a broader experience of life for more, you know, years in the order or a better and more providential vantage. But initially when you say those things, you're just being patronizing. You know, it's just like a kind of pious afterthought that you're hoping to reconcile yourself with one day, what truth be told, you don't care. You know, like you think that you know best. And then gradually you are not like ground down in religious life, but your heart is shaped in such a way that you can actually begin to sense like

God's providential designs in a more intuitive way. And you can see like, yeah, this is awful and I would do it otherwise. But now on account of the fact that I've done it this way, I am supremely grateful. And I wouldn't have it otherwise. So, yeah, like, because we can only ever see according to our own particular lights. But by taking a vow of obedience, you, in a certain sense, have a kind of entry into God's providential plans, which are more, yeah, more provident, more universal, more searching. What's it like, though though when you're kind of directed to do something and your director is wrong yeah so like saint thomas there's always that

possibility if you knew 100 that whatever your director said was sort of inerrant you're like i guess i just have to submit but i'm sure there's times you get told to do something or you get asked to go to a certain place to be a Dominican over here and you're like, this seems ridiculous. Or maybe you don't think that, but obviously, you know, whoever your director or superior is, there's the possibility of error, which that must be difficult. Yeah, it's fearful. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the kind of consolation comes with, so like if they were to say, you know, under obedience, I would like you to do something explicitly sinful, I'd be like, ah, no, you know? So I have that kind of safeguard. But apart from that, like, what's most fascinating, I think, about religious life is that I don't have rights in the strict sense,

which is completely contrary to a lot of political speech and discourse in our contemporaneous age, you know, because, like, people think in terms of their rights and how they're transgressed and how they can insist upon them and how they can thereby like leverage this that or the other connection to get what they want but like i don't have any which is awesome uh in a certain regard like you're completely vulnerable and exposed to the whatever you know the depredations of time and fate um but in that you are able to detach better yeah you're like yeah there's a freedom there yeah in a certain regard like i'm going to get subopt Yeah. Because you're like, yeah. There's a freedom there. Yeah. In a certain regard, like, I'm going to get suboptimal dental care, you know,

and maybe I'll be snarl-toothed at a certain age. But, like, who cares? You know, like, yeah, I'm going to have to find in-service, like, medical help,

and I may not be able to see the guy that I want who, like, really knows me, you know? But who cares? You know, like, worst case scenario, I'd die younger

than I would have otherwise. But, like, again, who cares? Like, life is not an absolute good to be held on to until such times you find that it's worthless you know so like yeah interesting let's take a step back and talk about just vocation in general again because it you know it seems like everyone has their particular calling and their particular path towards god so it seems a little restrictive prima facie when you think of religious vocation merely being marriage and religious life. How is it not? Does that make sense? No, say it again. Good. Everyone has their own journey to God, their own vocation in a sense. Like we're all called in different senses, right? Me as a married man, like I'm being called in a

way that's different to any other married man out there in the sense that it's a particular calling. But someone might say it seems restrictive to say your only options are religious life or married life. Does that make sense? Like why isn't there all these other options out there? Yeah, like are there other ways to serve the Lord

in a settled state and why did it? Yeah, maybe it seems kind of arbitrary that there would be just these ways. Is that the idea? Maybe. Let me think. Because a lot of times people have a question like, is singleness a vocation, you know?

Yeah. Ah, yes. Ah, yes. Let's swat that one down. So the first thing I would say is that we have a kind of tacit understanding of what it means to be free or what it means to express ourselves. So like in heaven, there's only one option. Right. You worship the Lord.

Right. And you do so in the context of a loving vision of God, the embrace of which leaves nothing to be desired. Right. But in that, we are supremely free because we are fixed with respect to the end you know like we are fixed with respect to what is most important and we are not distracted or deflected or otherwise deterred by like the panoply of goods on offer yeah right and so like that we would be constrained is a kind of i don't know it's a precursor of what lies in store i hope um there's there's a kind of, I don't know, it's a precursor of what lies in store, I hope.

There's a kind of freedom to be had in limitation. Like G.K. Chesterton says, if you get some kids and you tell them to play, and let's say that they're on an island with very sheer cliffs at the edge, right? He says, if you tell them to play, they're all going to kind of like huddle together in the middle of the island for fear of falling off the edge. But if you build about it a parapet, a wall, then they're thereby more free to explore the entirety of the island for fear of falling off the edge yep but if you build about it a parapet a wall then they're thereby more free to explore the entirety of the island so that's what like the kind of the way that our vocations are circumscribed the way that they're limited and then like they end up ultimately being freeing okay because it's like say like netflix you open

up netflix and you have like what you know like a hundred thousand options and you can spend an entire hour just scrolling through those options without ever making a choice because you're paralyzed by fear of the fact that you're just going to pick some like thrilling action movie with things that blow up and then you're going to miss out on quality cinema that if you were to dig deeper you would have found it and been satisfied and woken up the next morning like you had watched a terrence malick film and feel like you had been on a retreat and ultimately you know whatever so brilliant totally yeah yeah but if somebody like, we're watching this movie, you're like, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just saves you an hour. Yeah. That makes sense. You know,

I want to get back to kind of priestly discernment and religious life in general, but I want to kind of talk more about kind of marriage. Um, I wrote an article a couple of years ago that was entitled there isn't someone out there for everyone and yes you might die alone really popular with the ladies but i wrote it in response to this to this like idea that there's a soulmate out there for everyone I'm just like there I see no evidence for that logically or biblically and there is a sign you know and given today's culture and that many men I know women look at porn and are stupid and selfish just like men can be but uh there seems to be like given the state in which we're in there seems to be a lot of women who would like

to be married but just might not be able to because the men have been emasculated by porn and stupidity. So I'm trying to address this as bleakly as possible. So the only way is up. Right? But it does, like, it seems to me that that could be a real option for women in this room and men and women who are listening to this who might very much like to get married, but stiff shit. Like, you don't get to like these are this is the circumstances in which we live in and kind of like you might think of during world war one or world war two where people were

sent off to war and they didn't come back and that was your lot in life and it seems like that might be something similar to to how we're living in today like given our circumstances um if you were if you were born like 50 years ago maybe you would have been married and settled down and been happy and married life whereas today that might be less likely what do you think of that pessimistic opinion and uh that's it what do you think of it um so i think i think what we're afraid of uh or the fear that animates a lot of our anxious searching is a fear of kind of tragedy, an ultimate tragedy. Right. And some people see it as tragic that they wouldn't be married or that, you know, God forbid that they wouldn't have children or, you know, that some something debilitating would happen in such a way that they wouldn't feel like they had access to the goods that they've associated with, like flourishing. Right. So what then? OK, let's recontextualize tragedy. They wouldn't feel like they had access to the goods that they've associated with, like flourishing, right?

So what then, okay, let's recontextualize tragedy. Leon Bloy, who lived like early 20th century, a French author, he says the only tragedy is not to have become a saint. And what we believe is that God gives each grace sufficient to flourish. Not to like skate by, not to get in the back door of purgatory, not to claw our way into like the lowest ranks of those whom God deigns to admit to his heavenly kingdom. But we believe that we can actually burn brightly as stars in the firmament, and that vocation is an integral part of that, but that what is first and essential is friendship with Christ. What is first and is essential is Trinitarian communion from which we have all come and for which we are all destined, right? And so vocation should be of a piece with that. So every

moment, regardless of whether you're in your vocation or hoping to be, is precious and important and just charged with all kinds of drama because you are either proceeding towards your end or falling away from it and that we are real agents in that you know we can consent to and cooperate with the grace of God in order to be more perfectly attuned to his will for our life is there a problem in the sense in which we we think of vocation as our end so when you're single you think one day I'll be a priest and then I'll be holy or one day I'll be married and then I'll be holy and happy. And so we kind of like, we feel, and we ought not to

feel, but I think we do feel kind of stagnant kind of waiting and we kind of treat the vocation as the end. Once I'm ordained that's it or something. Yeah. No, and I think we do ourselves a disservice by telling vocation stories that are overly rosy. You know, like I was doing lines of coke off the back of, like, toilets,

and then I passed out in a subway station, and then I woke up and I heard God say, become a priest, and then I did, and I've been happy ever since. Right. It's just like, tell us the truth about your vocation. So you became a priest. Have there been moments where you were like,

crap, like, this may have been the wrong decision or no? Have you been pretty much steadfast ever since? I think if there were those moments, at the time I was too prideful to admit it. Cool. Right, yeah. So presently, no. No regrets.

Spelled R-E-G-R-A-T-S. Regrets. So for me, it was like I was raised in a good family. My parents are very devout and just excellent and very encouraging of us as kids. And my sisters went to Steubenville, and they left, and then they came back, and they were happier. And I was like, I'm going to do this. So I applied to one school, and I went. And when I went, my sisters gave me this sage counsel, which I impart to all those who may or may not be going to college

soon. They said, for your first year, don't date. And I was like, what? And they said, when you go, so you're going to go to Steubenville and they're going to all of these like excellent Catholic ladies. And we went to public school. So like the shift would have been jarring as it were. So like, you're going to want to date all of them twice. And I'm like, okay. But they're like, a lot of people do start dating their freshman year and then maybe it goes well and maybe it doesn't. Maybe they break up senior year. Then maybe they look around and find they have no friends and maybe you don't want to do that. And I was like, okay. Did you take that advice? I did take that advice. Yeah.

Whether for reasons of perseverance or pride, I know not, but you know, pride can get you through a lot because God's merciful. So I went and I didn't date. And then during that year, I heard a lecture given by a professor from St. Louis University named Eleanor Stump. It was this excellent woman. And she spoke about Aquinas on the nature of love. And everything that I'm about to say is going to sound really nerdy. Okay, so here we go. She described love with the kind of precision and clarity and conviction that I just found devastating.

Because I kind of knew things about things. I was like, this holy person said this interesting thing, and like this wise person said this novel thing, and I like cobbled together stuff and hoped for the best, you know? It was a kind of eclectic catechism theology that I had going on. And then all of a sudden, she's articulating it in a way that followed and in a way that was well-argued and coherent, way that was well argued and coherent and I was just like dude I need to drink at this fountain so I started reading about Saint Thomas and it was his witness basically the character of his holiness which yeah just really I mean just swept me away and I just wanted to love the Lord the way that he did so previous to that, I was like, yeah, let's get married, have kids, get a job, and go to heaven, whatever.

And then I read that book, and I was like, Dominican priest, party on. And I hadn't yet met a Dominican priest. So I'm glad they still existed. Remind that book again. Remind people of the name of that book again. Oh, yeah. The book was called The Quiet Light. Right.

So the name of the author is Louis de Waal, and he wrote these, just, they're like novels, in maybe the 50s and 60s, just about saints. And they're super charming. Like historical fiction. Kind of fanciful, but really sweet. But you were glad the Dominicans existed? I was glad the Dominican existed, and then I didn't, like, fall in love with, like,

Saint Gilbert, you know, because the Gilbertines are long gone. So, yeah. So then I started pridefully telling people that I was certain of my vocation, with a kind of swagger in my step you know dust shoulders off and um and then it ended up like actually working out which is great um and I think like before I entered the order I was like lonely sad and anxious and then I entered the order and then I was lonely and sad and anxious so it's like it's

the kind of thing where it doesn't completely revolutionize your personality but what it does do is that it frames um you know your walk with the lord and your experience of life and your struggles therein in such a way as to make it um uh i suppose like your story begins to make more sense as you tell it to yourself like in the presence of the lord and as the lord tells it to you um because yeah you can we can spin narratives about our lives in all kinds of ways, but a lot of falsity enters in. You're like, I'm a great guy with great skills, and I'm super talented, and everyone loves me.

And then you're like, wow, I can recognize in that person's eyes that I'm annoying them right now, and they wish that I would stop speaking. And that's really heartbreaking, and I wish that I were more interesting, but I'm not. And like, you know, like, yeah. And it's just, wow, just rough. Did you feel these sorts of things when you were in, when you had joined the Dominicans?

Is that what we're doing? I mean, I mean, throughout life, but yeah. Throughout life, yeah. Yeah, I mean, formation is a kind of concentrated experience. Did you feel, because the Dominicans tend to be a rather intellectual order, did you feel a need to impress your superiors

and your brethren in, as you were discerning? Probably, yeah. I don't know. I suspect that most people feel that need. Yeah, I spoke to another Dominican who said, you're humbled quickly and you just learn to get over it. Yeah. Well, yeah, like you enter a room and you're very cognizant of the fact

that you're not the smartest guy there. Yeah. You're probably even not like top 30%. It's just like, wow, he knows seven languages and I can't pronounce half of them. So, yeah. Yeah, I was very much discerning religious life. I went and lived with the Franciscan friars

of the renewal in England. Got to tell you this great story. I feel like you ought to see us better. You don't just want to see him. So I flew to England. I was living in Ireland at the time. Went to the friar's house and he said, tonight we're going to go do street evangelization. One of the first things he said to me. So he said, you better go in and pray. Done. So I went in, prayed, and me and brother and a couple of other priests, you know, we went out and he had this crucifix, which he had painted to look like the Christ from The Passion of the Christ,

you know. It was very bloody. We're now on a subway with this big crucifix, me and two, like, bearded Franciscan men, you know. And we went outside of this Catholic church in Soho, which is a pretty dodgy part of London, and they had Eucharistic adoration inside. Outside, the friars had set up this beautiful banner

of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Brother had a Polaroid camera, and everyone who walked past, they said, do you want your photo taken with Mary? And so they would take a photo, them and Mary, and would give them this and say, put it on your fridge

and pray to her. She loves you. And I remember it was funny because, you know, the Franciscan friars, they're big bearded men, you know? And one bloke came up and he said, you know, the brother said,

would you like to hold the crucifix? And he did. And this drunk bloke said to Jesus on the the cross would you like a drink of beer and was pretending to give him a drink you know because these were rowdy characters and brother set forward and went that's no and the guy just shrunk and give me that later on that night we were on a train headed back you know and i'm sitting there like this you know just yeah, I'd love to write a book for Ignatius Press on the Australian sayings that are all very inappropriate. Brother was here, I was here, and brother was next to me, right, and I look at brother's face, we're on the subway, he's looking above my head and he looks angry i look up and there's a sign up there and it says immaculate contraception just because it's christmas doesn't mean your

condom won't break and i look up i'm like crap that sucks yeah and then brother goes and sits next to and i thought he may have been saying to him, like, let's rip it down or something like that, you know? And brother was the softer spoken one. So I just could pick up, maybe he was telling him, you know, this is wrong, but it's also wrong to damage public property, you know? That's what I thought was going on. And then brother, the soft spoken one,

looked at me and went, it's going down. What? And so we stood up to get off at our exit and brother stood up and like ripped this thing out of the wall everyone was looking at us and we were running through the subway with this billboard like that long sex would be great but this is also good you know like With this billboard, like that long. Sex would be great, but this is also good.

You know, like. And so I remember the next day, brother was going on a mission. And he said, I'm going to take this with me. And I said, where are you going to say you got it from? And he threw it in the trash. And he said, I'm just going to say I got it from the trash. Cool. Anyway, that was just a side note. But so I was very, very attracted to the Friars of the Renewal. And through a lot of discernment

with my friends, I realised quite honestly that the reason I felt so attracted to religious life was not out of a love for the priesthood or what that meant, but out of fear. I felt like I want to be a priest because if I'm a priest, that way I won't be a crap provider, like a bad lover, a terrible father. Like I was really afraid of all of these things, you know? And I wouldn't have been able to articulate it then. But looking back, I think, you know, because I knew my wife, Cameron,

even during this discernment with the friars, I thought, well, she could see me at a distance and respect me. That feels a lot better than her knowing me, like knowing me when like, like I'm horny and want to go too far when we're dating or, you know, knowing me when I've done something that's embarrassing or something like that, you know, I'd much rather that. And I had some good friends, you know, at the time in Brisbane who kind of helped me realize that choosing the priesthood out of fear wasn't a good idea. And so I was perpetually discerning both religious life and marriage, you know, and Cameron

and I, she was beautiful. I thought if I could date and marry anyone, it would be her. And so I kept kind of walking down these two roads. And I spoke to a good friend of mine and he said, you can't walk two roads. Eventually you'll split apart, you know. So he said, you need to make a decision. I said, all right. I remember that night I wrote in my journal, today I've stopped discerning priesthood. Today I will start discerning marriage with Cameron, you know.

And so I avoided the Friars of the Renewal website as if it were porn, you know, and stopped going on there, stopped looking at those sites and just told her that I'd like to pursue porn, you know, and stopped going on there, stopped looking at those sites and just told her that I'd like to pursue her, you know. And anyway, I bought a ring in Brisbane where I was living at the time, sold my car, moved to Texas. This is the end of 2005. And I hadn't told her I'd bought the ring.

And I was really afraid, you know, to propose. And I called my friend Mark Bennett one night. I said, Mark, I woke him up, I guess it was early morning. I said, Mark, I'm bloody terrified, mate. I think I should propose to her. I just, I'm afraid. And he said, his exact words, he says, mate, she's bloody better than you anyway. You should propose before

she figures that out, you know? And so I remember that I was praying for a sign because I heard of other people who had prayed for signs and they were given them, you know? So this is what I did. It's very embarrassing to tell you this, you understand? But I'm going to because the more I live, the more I realize we're all awkward and it's okay. So here you go. You understand? But I'm going to. Because the more I live, the more I realize we're all awkward and it's okay. So here you go. I prayed to see like some strange piece of like a full moon. I want to see a full moon. I wanted to see like a deer, like a deer in the middle of Houston, Texas. And I wanted like unambiguous scripture, right? And so I'm kneeling down after receiving our Lord in the Eucharist,

and I had this conversation with our Lord, you know, and no doubt it was perhaps more me talking back to me than it was our Lord, but our Lord tended to speak to me as if Australia, like he was an Australian mother, which is why I think it probably wasn't our Lord. I said, it was like in Australia, there's this saying, people say, you're old and ugly enough to figure that out, you know? And so I said, I don't know if I want to marry her., it was like in Australia there's this saying, people say, you're old and ugly enough to figure that out, you know. And so I said, I don't know if I want to marry her. And it was as if the Lord said, well, do you want to marry her? I went, yeah.

He went, well, bloody do it, you idiot. Done. So that night I proposed and we got engaged and it was amazing, you know, and I didn't have any doubts. And I'm wrapping up here. A couple of years into our marriage, I really feared that I had made the wrong decision. Wow.

Because people talked about how wonderful it was to have a kid, you know, and how much you would love them. And I love my eldest son, but when he was born, he was very difficult. He would scream all night. And I'm like, I'm not good at this. Like, I thought I'd be a great dad because I knew the theology of the body

and I wasn't sleeping around on my wife and stuff like that. But I'm just like, I didn't realize at the time, but looking back, I was extraordinarily selfish. And I'm not overstating that. Like, I was very an ugly character who was very selfish. And I'm just like, shit, like I've made a mistake here. Like the Lord called me to be a priest, but I'm too frigging like romantic or horny or something. And now I'm freaking married and I've missed my call. All right. So that's very personal. But the reason I share that is I imagine there's a lot of people, perhaps in this room, certainly who are listening, who are thinking that the Lord is calling them along this sort of tightrope, you know, and if they deviate slightly by the wrong choice, they'll screw up God's perfect plan for them.

So I want to ask you in regards to God's perfect will and his permissive will, how does that play into vocation? Could it be that the Lord is calling someone out here to be a religious sister or a priest, but they can choose to be married anyway and that be okay or vice versa? or a priest, but they can choose to be married anyway and that be okay or vice versa? Yeah. Maybe just some initial thoughts too about God's will and evil and, I mean, loss and how that factors in.

I think often of, so in St. Matthew's Gospel, in chapter 13, there's just a string of parables, many of which, all of which, are very beautiful. The first one is the one that we know best, the sower and the seed. The next long one is the one about the wheat and the tares. And there are a few things about that particular parable which I think help us when it comes to living life well and beautifully, but also in matters of discernment and the kind of fear of loss or the fear of taking the wrong course. So one, it's the Lord plants good seed, right?

He plants wheat. And then it says in the passage that at the time when men are accustomed to sleep, the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat. And then it says that the two kind of grow up together, and then the workers come back to the master, and they say, we thought that you sowed good seed. And he says, I did. An enemy has done this, right? And they say, should we root them out? And he says, no, wait till the end of the age,

right? And then gather them, bind them into bundles and then burn them with fire. So there are a number of things about that parable which kind of bring into focus the Lord's work and how it pertains to our very particular lives and especially the advent of evil. So one, this whole thing has a kind of end times perspective. What we are preparing for is heaven. That's it, right? And we can begin to live heaven now, inasmuch as Jesus Christ gives us grace that he makes us partakers of the divine nature, like gods, you know, adopted sons and daughters. The next thing is, it says that at the time when men are accustomed to sleep, an enemy came.

But it doesn't say that God sleeps, right? So it's not something that catches him unawares. And we have testimony to that by the fact that he knows who has done it. He doesn't suppose or infer or guess. He just says an enemy has done this, because he knows exactly what has happened. Also, all of it happens within the field. It doesn't happen without the bounds of God's providence. And it's the kind of thing where we fear that, like, you know,

there's wheat and there's tares and there's nothing in between. But when St. Augustine reads that passage, he says, we have a God who can make tares into wheat. And that's the very reason for which he affords us this end times perspective, you know, because there is time to change, you know. There's time to repent. There's time to draw close, there's time to recover, you know, and for some people that will mean that, like, you won't get married and you won't have a religious vocation and you won't be a priest, you know, like, say somebody who struggles very, very acutely with a same-sex

attraction, you know, and it's not something that's going to change anytime soon. They're not called to marriage, concretely. They're not called to religious life, concretely. They're not called to priesthood, concretely. It's the kind of thing where they are called, in light of these circumstances, we speak about God's perfect and permissive will, in light of all of these contingent circumstances, to love the Lord in this particular state, without a spouse, and not in one of these kind of ecclesial vocations.

And yet in that, they can still be saints and that God can take the tears of their heart and make them wheat. And that none of it falls without the bounds of his providence, that it's all seen by him and loved by him. And with the confidence that God only permits evil things to befall, if he can bring about from it some greater good. And though that is deeply mysterious and confounding at times, greater good and though that is deeply mysterious and confounding at times yet it is believable because we see it in christ you know and in the con i mean like in that gaze you know like in gazing upon the crucified lord we know that what is most terrible and tragic and ugly can become most redemptive and beautiful um so yes like it is in a certain regard it is possible to

like miss out on your vocation. Okay. But God is the kind of God who draws all things and who continually offers his grace. So if we are saved, it is by virtue of his grace. If we lose him, if we are damned, it is by virtue of our free rejection of his offer. So there's a 20th century, well, Reginald Garigou-Lagrange said that at each moment, God is offering to each soul, even that of the most hardened sinner, at least the grace sufficient to pray. So God is always offering. We talk about prevenient

graces and consequent graces. God's always kind of leading us. He's always prompting us by actual graces, which if pursued, consented to, cooperated with, are kind of daisy chain all the way to heaven. You know, that doesn't mean that we make them efficacious, you know, but it is that God gives grace in light of grace, grace upon grace, grace upon grace. And we may reject, reject, reject, reject, reject until such time as it's too late to be admitted to a religious order, too late to be admitted to a seminary, too late to get married, you know, or circumstances may have come about that make us unfit to be so, you know, but yet those graces are still fruitful and they can ultimately fructify in heaven. So someone could, you know, be morally certain that they're being called to say the religious life and think, I want to be

married. And that doesn't mean to put it put it you know that doesn't mean that they're going to be damned or they've wasted their life right yeah and it gives us that choice or no no sure that's like I mean we're free in a certain regard and here I don't mean like free for license but free for excellence um and God wills that you know he's you know St. Thomas will often repeat he wills that contingent things happen contingently. Which is to say, like, we're the kind of creature that choose freely. And he makes us to choose freely. And though he holds all nows together in one eternal embrace, yet things develop, things unfold according to their proper principles.

And we can choose. And that doesn't mean that we will defeat God's will. It will not be defeated. It may suffer kind of like, you know, there may be certain graces that we don't avail ourselves of, but the only graces that are actually addressed to us are the graces now, you know? We shouldn't, like, lament the loss of graces not capitalized upon in the past, nor should we lust after those graces of the future that may never be given. Well, we can only, the only graces to which we can respond with a grace is given now, you know,

and so like by responding to those graces, our vocation will be made known to us and it will unfold in a way that brings us nearer to Christ, you know, in friendship, you know, in a way that really satisfies. Okay, well I think we're going to take some questions from y'all right now and to kind of get us started, I have a question from someone who wrote to me, and they said, is religious life objectively superior than the married state, the married vocation, and if so, why? And then if you all have questions after that, please raise your hand and we'll bring you a microphone. So classically, the answer is yes.

Okay. I should just say. Classically, what's that mean? The answer is yes. Okay. I should just say... Classically, what's that mean? The answer is yes. There you go. Yes. And the reason for which... Sometimes people hear that, especially Americans,

and they're like, I drove here in my Ford F-150, you know, with a bald eagle on my shoulder, and if you tell me that something is better than something else, I will absolutely spurn your elitism as I stamp on your face with my, like, you know, steel-toed boot.

Whatever. Cool. So for fear of that, I'm going to nuance my claim. Okay. So religious life is not essentially higher in the sense of, like, all religious by virtue of the fact that they're religious are better. There's abundant, you know, evidence to the contrary. So what it is, though, is operatively so. In the sense that there are different ways to get to heaven.

And the best ways to get to heaven are the most heavenly ways. So picture what heaven will be like. It will be, yeah, right, okay. So think of C.S. Lewis. Think of the last battle. Think of further up and further in. Think of worship of God, which is unstinting, unceasing, unfailing, perfect. It leaves you entirely satisfied and never has you look at your watch and never has you second guess what the preacher says in the homily

and ultimately fulfills every faculty of your soul. So you feel that you're firing on all cylinders in such a way that you only want it whole and entire without fear of loss or diminution. Glory. That's what we want, right? Now, how do we prepare for that? By the life that most closely resembles it. And so St. Thomas says in religious life, you have the means that are most dispositive,

the means that are closest to the life of heaven, which isn't to say that, like, it's bad to change diapers. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying you won't change diapers in heaven. You'll worship. And so in religious life, you prepare for the end by living it presently, right? diapers. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying you won't change diapers in heaven. You'll worship. And so in religious life, you prepare for the end by living it presently, right? With a kind of undivided heart, again, to take nothing away from marriage. And this, for those who are wondering, this is quite biblical. St. Paul says,

I wish that you were as I am. Yeah. First Corinthians 7, man. Right. There it is. Virginity is to be preferred. If you can live it, do it. If you can't, get married. Now, that's a kind of stark way of putting it, you know, because it sounds like second tier. Yeah. If you don't like that, your argument is with Paul, not with Father Pine. But I would say, too, that, like, because vocations are given personally, individually, this is not a, like, a distinction or it's not a comparison that we draw in the abstract. Like, I don't think that this is a good principle for like discernment of vocation i don't think you say like religious life is better therefore i will pursue it because if the grace isn't given

it kills you find it sterile and oppressive but if the grace is given then you flourish in that state and so when god calls each person he calls him or her by name. And so religious life, I mean, like universally, kind of objectively, is better, but it may not be better for you. Because the way that the Lord is forming your heart by these particular virtues will form a kind of spiritual temperament which will flourish in a particular state. Maybe marriage, maybe priesthood, maybe religious life. But that's something that's very personal, very historical, very contingent. Awesome. Thank you. If you lift up your hand, someone will bring you a mic.

One question I have, I'm just going to go for it, and then please raise your hand if you guys have a question after this. When it comes to discerning vocations, would you ever put, whether it's a time limit, or, you know, at what point is it like, okay, it's decision time? You know, are there certain abiding rules for that? That reminds me of something Father Bob Bedard said, who was the founder of the Companions of the Cross. He said, since discernment has become fashionable, no one's made a decision since. His point being that we can over- over discern and call what is perhaps cowardice prudence so what do you what say you yeah i've heard i've heard another priest describe uh the

opd as a as a religious order that that claims the most followers opd order of perpetual discerners. Very good. Allow myself to amuse myself. Yeah, so like this is a hard question because on the one hand, no, you shouldn't discern perpetually. But like on the other hand, I don't think it's actually helpful to jump into something because it's time. Like you don't just like lay hold of a woman and say like, ah, I'm 35, marry me, you know, like, that could end catastrophically, right? So, too, you can't just, like, you know, join a religious order and say, like, I'm getting old, and I can't be admitted beyond the age of 36, so take me as I am, you know? It's like, in a certain sense, it's kind of, like, false. So, what do I think? I think that in light of the fact that we can't discern forever, that should

impart a kind of urgency to us right and how do we internalize that urgency not with fear not with anxiety right um not with a whatever so etc dot dot dot I'll end that sentence elliptically but what I do think is the way that we actually like drill down and discern actively isn't by becoming overly involved with our psychological states. The way that I think that we discern is becoming involved in the mysteries that actually save us. So like to make frequent and worthy reception of Holy Communion, to use the sacrament of confession at least once every two months, ideally, you know, like every two weeks, but like one month is a kind of normal thing. To pray every day faithfully, to introduce a modicum of discipline into your life, to cultivate

good friendships. And I think that when you do those things, you form the virtues that actually embolden you and make it possible for you to embark on your vocation with a kind of certainty. But if you're not doing those things, you'll always be like the vicious man is always tossed by this, that that and the other well suppose there is a man or a woman who is discerning a relationship with this person and a particular religious vocation they are praying every day they do have spiritual direction they are receiving the sacraments would it be a good idea to say okay i just don't know what to do and so i'm going to give myself one month and on the first of next next month say i'm going to make a one month and on the first of next month, say, I'm going to make a decision because perhaps this person has been discerning these things for two years now

to kind of give an extreme example. Would that be a good idea or does it really depend on the person? So, you know, in the scripture, there are some people who test the Lord and some people who refuse to test the Lord. And there seems to be a kind of mixed testimony about that. If you set a time limit, you seem to be taking the role of an initiator. You're not setting a time limit necessarily because of your lack of trust in the Lord. You're setting a time limit because of your certainty of your own cowardice and inability to make decisions. Yeah.

Right. So then there's a corrective factor for your own kind of psychological fecklessness. Short answer is I don't know because I've experienced, I've had the experience of people who have done that and it hasn't ended well. Okay. Right. So I'm very loathe to say,

I don't think that just do it is a good tagline beyond like Nike products. You know, I just think that like when we do that we set ourselves up for disappointment because because even if we try to manage our expectations about this thing we still expect it to play out and when it doesn't then there's like further feelings of recrimination that i myself have failed um so like i don't yeah i don't necessarily think that if you have an inkling about seminary you should enter i don't think that okay um so i think it's better to wait than to set time limits. That's my own personal prudence, and that's just me. Sweet. All right, this is going to get awkward very quickly,

unless you have questions. You can ask questions specifically about our experience, or if you have heady questions, you can ask him. Great. So I have a question, and I think you both are hitting on some of the most essential things that everyone in this room thinks about on a daily basis all the time. And in a particular way here in D.C. specifically, I'd say, besides from everyone in the world. I'm wondering if you both could speak a little bit to that sense of inner peace. And I know some people have that gift and they say, oh, I just felt so right. I felt so called and it was perfect.

I knew I was meant to marry him or I knew I was meant to enter this vocation. And then others are like, I don't know. I just did it and I guess God was calling me to that. I don't know, you know, I just did it. And I felt, you know, I guess God was calling me to that. I don't know. I never felt a real sense of peace. So could you speak a little bit to that? Thank you.

Great question. I know for me personally, when I proposed, I was like, I've made the right decision. I felt tremendous peace with this. When it comes to kind of like a marital vocation, I think it's really important that the people who love you are on board. So the people who knew me and loved me looked at Cameron and went, oh, yeah, she's really great, you know. And if they had have said she sucks, I probably wouldn't have been in a place to listen to them.

But hindsight, I can see how important that was, that one can be infatuated with another human being and not see their flaws. But I certainly had a tremendous sense of peace when I proposed to my wife. But then after the sacrament of marriage, a couple of years into my marriage, when I had those doubts that I'd made the wrong choice, there was also a sense of peace there in that, okay, I've made my decision. And so whether or not I feel great about it, whether or not I never have that sense of peace again, I've made that decision. And so it doesn't matter. And that, in a weird way, gave me a sense of peace. And that season of restlessness and uncertainty actually quickly dissolved and uh

and i've actually you know even though life is chaotic and i'm growing as a father and as a husband and and and all of that there is a sense of underlying peace for me yeah yeah what about you um i think um what we mean by peace is important. So it may not always be psychological peace. It may not always be a kind of thought world which is serene and placid. But what we're hoping for is a kind of sense of fit. I think that's the best way to describe it. Like a sense that this is the reason for which I have come.

describe it, like a sense that this is the reason for which I have come. And the way, so when I have most clarity about that is usually as the fruit of time. So like, I don't know if you had the experience where you smell something that you haven't smelled in a long time, whether it's like your grandmother's perfume or one of your relatives' houses or, you know, like Dunkaroos with that delicious vanilla frosting with the little rainbow jimmies. You're like, you're just transported back bodily to sixth grade when you would take the little crackers and get as little as you could so that way you could scoop the rest with your finger. Yeah, so smells are associated in a big way with memory. And sometimes when I have, you know, like I'll have that experience and I'm just transported back seven, eight, nine years, I'll recognize the fact that now I am happier than I was.

Now I'm just more contented than I was. Now I'm more peaceful, more joyful, just generally more like reconciled to who I am as a person than I was formerly. But I don't think that's, that's something that we can necessarily track moment to moment. I don't think that we have a kind of barometer or instrument to gauge that,

you know, because your life can be chaotic and yet there can be a deep and abiding peace that, that issues from the sense that I am here and this is where I'm called to be. Like I had this, you know, I, I was invited to go to this,

what I thought was a vocation event. It ended up being not that, and it was in New Hampshire and I was in Providence and then we had to drive this other place and then we had to drive back to whatever we drove like 10 hours in one day for I carried a litter with a statue of Saint Anne which was hilarious and I'm also like a strangely proportioned man so I was much taller than everyone and like the guy that was opposite me was pulling down on his end of the litter and so my handle was like way up in the sky it was. It was hilarious, but we were eating bourbon chicken in a food court on the way back home, and it was, like, I just had this deep sense of,

it is for this reason that I have come, you know, like, to be here now with these two brothers and eating bourbon chicken, you know, like, not here now with these two brothers and eating bourbon chicken, you know, like not the free samples that they offer you in profusion, but like purchased bourbon chicken, you know, because like, yeah, we had done nothing for two days, but we had done it together in a way that I thought was, yeah, hilarious and haphazard, but delightful because we were friends and because we were becoming more so in a way that was Christ-centered. So I only think like, I think that Christ reveals that as a kind of subsequent thing. You kind of come into the recognition that he's telling his story in you in a way that becomes more and more coherent with each passing day.

It's going to keep going until it's inappropriate. So I know a lot of priests that are Holy Cross priests, and they grew up in South Bend, and they were like, yeah, I discerned to be a priest just because they're around, and I didn't really put much thought into a different order, but they were just around, and they love being Holy Cross priests. And in history, they were just like, you know, St. Dominic was, you know, walking through

the streets and everyone's like, oh, I guess I'm going to be a priest. I guess I'll be a Dominican. So can you talk a little bit about discernment of specific orders and people just, you know, being called to join them? Like what is local? Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think there's something like very hipster about that insight. You know, it's like, it's very genuine. It's very authentic. It's like scratch kitchen, farm to table. And what I mean, I'm like, I'm kind of being joking, but I'm also kind of being serious. When people ask, like, how did you pick the Dominicans? The answer that I usually give is like, how did you pick your best friend? You know, did you do like a comprehensive study on Facebook for the person who most closely fit your character attributes and then stalk them

until such time as they like, you know, we're like, okay, okay, we'll hang out. It's like, no, that's creepy. You know, like you just kind of fall in with someone and then you recognize the fact like, wow, our lives have become deeply intertwined. And for that, I'm supremely grateful. So like I met St. Thomas Aquinas and he introduced me to the Lord in a way that I hadn't yet been. And that was it. to the Lord in a way that I hadn't yet been. And that was it. And I didn't look at anything else. And maybe like, I suppose in the abstract, there may be orders that per capita produce more saints, you know, than the Dominicans do, which I think is the ultimate standard of the efficacy of a rule is if it makes holy people, you know. But then you introduce the factor of like, well, ecclesial approbation, does that necessarily signify sanctity in the straight extent, blah, blah. You know, but then you introduce the factor of like, well, ecclesial approbation, does that necessarily signify sanctity in the straight extent, blah, but you know, like, you can go crazy,

so I think it's just simpler just to, like, fall in with those whom you meet, because I think that that reveals a kind of trust in God's providence, because God loves our destiny more than we do, and at a certain point, that has to become, that has to become confidence, that has to become a certainty that he alone can supply. So yeah, I like that. For me, I remember being really attracted to the Capuchin Franciscans. And I remember feeling kind of bad because the prime, one of the main reasons I want to be a Capuchin is I just thought they look cool. You know, kind of like a Jedi, but instead of a lightsaber, it was a rosary. That kind of looked like hippies. I'm like, this is cool. And I remember feeling guilty about that. Like I should be attracted to this

religious order for a much deeper and more profound reason. And a Franciscan once said to me to not be afraid of that. Because he said, if you were called to marriage, maybe the first thing that would attract you to your to be bride was her eyes or her hair or something and that is a superficial reason and not the primary reason one ought to marry another but it doesn't mean it isn't the thing that led you to them and so I think that is a is great advice you know and so even though there might be people today who are kind of embarrassed like I, I just think you look cool. Like, he was walking today towards me, and the wind was blowing his habit, and I just went, God, I wish I was a Dominican.

You know? And I think it's okay, because that does say something to you about that order, and not to be afraid of that, for what that's worth. Let's give them a round of applause to Matt Fratt and Father Pine. All right. Fantastic. Thank you for listening. I want to share with you what Aquinas had to say about that third petition in the Our Father, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. As you know, God's will is obviously what our vocation ought to be. It's interesting, you know, I was talking to Father Gregory on the drive to this place where we did the interview,

and I asked him if Aquinas had much to say on one's vocation. And he said, not really. And he said, because, and this is a good point, Aquinas doesn't talk much about the subjective life, you know, about like, I feel like this way, I feel the Lord is leading me here. Rather, it's kind of very objective, you know, like the passions being acted upon by the good and then the will responding and so forth. That said, I thought it would be kind of important, or at least very interesting to share this with you from what Aquinas has to say about the Our Father. So, let's just look here at the will of God. It's not very long. Aquinas says, out of humility, one does not trust one's own knowledge. Where humility is, there is also wisdom. The proud trust only themselves. Now, the Holy Spirit,

through the gift of wisdom, teaches us that we do not our own will, but the will of God. do not our own will, but the will of God. It is through this gift that we pray of God that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And this is seen the gift of knowledge. Thus, one says to God, let thy will be done in the same way as one who is sick desires something from the physician and his will is not precisely his own, because it is the will of the physician. Otherwise, if his desire were purely from his own will, he would indeed be foolish. So, we ought not to pray other than that in us God's will may be done, that is, that his will be accomplished in us. The heart of man is only right when it is in accord with the will of God. Thus did Christ, because I came, sorry, this did Christ,

and here's a quote from Christ here, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me. Christ as God has the same will with the Father, but as a man, he was a distinct will from the fathers. And it was according to that, that he says he does not do his will, but the father's. Hence, he teaches us to pray and to ask, thy will be done. I really liked that. By the way, fiat voluntas tua. Fiat voluntas tua is the Latin for thy will be done. And that could be a – speaking of Latin phrases, right? Non niscite domine. Fiat voluntas tua could be a – something that we pray throughout the day whenever we encounter something that annoys us or that's difficult. very trivial, you know, like your iPhone is about to die, fiat voluntas tua, or you're rushing to get somewhere and you realize you need to fill the tank up with gas, fiat voluntas tua. Any little annoyance like that, imagine surrendering it to God like that. That could be a beautiful little practice to take on. But I really like what Thomas Aquinas says here about God's will.

Like, if you're sick and you go to the physician and he has to operate on you or do something on you, you don't tell him what you want, right? Because what you ought to want is health, just like what we ought to want is to accomplish God's will. So, rather than telling the physician, do it this way and that way and this way, we just sort of submit to the wisdom of the physician. And that's the wisdom of this fiat voluntas tua, right? Trusting in God. Because right now, you might feel called to the priesthood in a very strong way. Right now, you might feel called to become a religious sister or a married person or a mother or a father. And that may be the will of God for you.

But I think there's wisdom that instead of praying for those things that they come about, to say, I submit myself to you, Lord God, and I trust in you. And I trust that right now, I am where you want me to be, you know, and you're not hiding your will from me. You want me to do your will. And so, I just open myself up to you and I just do your work in me, like heal me, bring your will about in my life. And I pray that for you, wherever you are and however you're listening to this. You know, maybe you're in a marriage that you kind of aren't happy in. Maybe you're in a religious vocation and you're not happy in it. I mean, just because we're doing the will of God, it doesn't necessarily mean we're going to be, you know, blissfully happy.

It doesn't even mean that our peace won't be shaken. But that isn't a sign that we aren't in the vocation God has for us. It might rather be an indication that we need to draw closer to God. Not relying on our own knowledge of the way things ought to be going, but upon just this submission again to the will of God. All right. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed today's interview. What I'm going to do is put another link in the show notes so you can see pictures from the event. If you want to see how tall Father Gregory Pine is, click that link in the show notes,

and you will see photos and the whiskey that we're holding. That's always good. And remember, please click that link and get your non-nicite domine swag so that you can look awesome and so you can support this apostolate. Thanks so much. God bless you, and I will chat with you next week. Who's gonna survive And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life Thank you.