Pints With Aquinas - 161: What to do about the scandal in the Church, with Sr. Mary Madeline Todd

Episode Date: July 9, 2019

Today I interview Sr. Mary Madeline Todd about how to have hope in the midst of scandal.  SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform  

G'day, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. A few weeks back, you'll remember I played a lecture from Sister Mary Madeline Todd about the current crisis within the Catholic Church. She shared seven things we can learn from Catherine of Siena. And I told y'all that I was going to post a private interview that I had done with her on Patreon. And I did that, but then all of my patrons were like, you need to release this to the public. And I was so bloody blessed by that. One of you said, Matt, we are not supporting you so that we can have exclusive content. We are supporting you so that you can produce content. And I cried. Maybe, maybe not. I'm just saying there may have been some water in my eyeballs. Anyway, so I've decided to share this amazing interview with you. I was going to do two episodes on the church scandal,

because Aquinas has a whole section where he talks about correcting prelates. But honestly, I don't want to. I don't want to. There's enough people talking about the scandal that's going on the church, and it seems to me what we need to be doing is looking at Jesus. So, I'm going to play this amazing interview for you. But next week, we're going to do two episodes with Father Gregory Pine. It's going to be two interviews I've done on what Thomas has to say about the incarnation. And we talk a lot about the love of Christ, the hope that we have in Christ. And it just seemed to me that rather than doing two episodes on the scandal, let's just do one. And then next two weeks are going to be beautiful, glorious, all focused on the blessed Lord.

So, I think you're going to really, really love this interview. You know, I don't know, there's probably like two sides, hey? Like on one side, you've got people who are just shouting, who are gossiping, you know, who are speaking very disrespectfully of bishops, of, you know, and look, I've done this too, right? Of Ted, Ted McCarrick, right? God have mercy on me. Because the more I pray about this, the more I think, you know, Cardinal McCarrick doesn't need my condemnation. What he needs are my prayers. Not Cardinal, just Ted. He's been laicised. I get that. McCarrick, who committed grave evil, has been made in the image and likeness of God, of evil has been made in the image and likeness of God, it turns out. And Jesus Christ desires that he be saved. And I think that we can fall into this trap of scapegoating people, right?

Like I've done it. I've done it, brothers and sisters, and you probably have too. So, Lord Jesus, would you bless Cardinal McCarrick? Father, would you pour out your mercy upon him? Would you convict him if he is not convicted already of his sin? Would you give him the grace to repent and believe in your love and your mercy? In Jesus' name, amen. And I said there were two sides, all right? So, if like one side is just shouting and yelling and being disrespectful, and by the way, this is not me throwing anyone under the bus. I think people have their lane and I'm kind of glad that different people in

the church are doing what they're doing. Like I'm glad, for example, that Church Militant are doing what they're doing. I think someone has to do it, even if I don't always agree with how they do it. I think Taylor Marshall and Timothy Gordon, like I'm glad that they're doing what they're doing. So don't hear me when I say, you know, that there's a lot of people shouting. That's not me condemning on anyone in particular. I just think that we have the temptation to fall into that, okay? But I also kind of think that, you know, on the other side, you've got people who just want to do everything as like, let's just go back to normal. Like, let's just not focus on the scandal in any way.

And as soon as you do, you're kind of lampooned for it, right? So like, I get it. Like this is a difficult time, brothers and sisters. It's a difficult time. And that's why this interview is going to help so much. All right. So that's what we're going to do. Here we go.

Buckle up. Seriously, if you are driving, you should buckle up. It's really the safest thing. Sister Mary Madeline Todd, how are you doing? Thank you for being on Plants of Aquinas. Thanks, Matt. It's great to be with you. Yeah. Well, for our listeners, tell us a little bit about yourself. I am a Dominican sister of St. Cecilia in Nashville, Tennessee, I am a Dominican sister of St. Cecilia in Nashville, Tennessee, and I've been in the convent for 28 years, loving it. I teach theology. Currently, I'm teaching for Aquinas College.

I teach theology to our sisters in formation, which is a great, great task. Today, we started a new class in Christology, And I also do a lot of public speaking, which actually began when I lived in Australia. When I was down under working for the Sydney World Youth Day with Pope Benedict, I started doing a lot of public speaking, especially about the church's teaching on the dignity of woman and basically theology of the body, theological anthropology. basically theology of the body, theological anthropology. And so that kind of opened a whole door for me that led to my studying in Rome at the Angelicum, where John Paul II studied and really specializing in his theology with the Dominican twist. So that's kind of some of what I've done, and it's led me to teaching all over and now in Nashville. Lovely.

Well, and a couple of weeks ago, we shared a talk that you gave at Harvard University, I believe, on things we can learn from Catherine of Siena in living through a time of crisis. I just checked this. It's been downloaded 18,206 times in a couple of weeks. Wow. That's great. Yeah. And I've got so much lovely feedback from people who just thought that this was just a breath of fresh air, that what you shared really kind of was the Christian response to the sort of turbulent times we now find ourselves in. So, thank you so much for doing that.

Oh, I'm really grateful to be able to share the thought of Catherine of Siena. She's not easy to read. If you've ever tried to read the dialogue, you know that. But she has so much wisdom, and I think we really need saints right now, not just thought from wherever. We need people who are really in the Lord to help guide us through these really turbulent times we're living in. I want to just kind of maybe begin by just acknowledging that we are in a turbulent time, and maybe kind of point out maybe two of the pitfalls that all of us can fall into

and then maybe ask you to help us and me, I mean me too, kind of navigate in between those two pitfalls. So like we are in a turbulent time. I mean, in our society, like things just seem like they're becoming increasingly chaotic and yeah, everything from the transgenderism thing that's going on, if you hold a traditional Christian view,

you're looked upon as some sort of bigot and these sorts of things. Meanwhile, it feels like our church is in a turbulent time. We're very aware of the public scandals that are taking place with Theodore, that did take place with Theodore McCarrick. May God bless him. Bless him. And I think sometimes we can just really jump on the bandwagon and start hating on people who are actually people who've been created

in the image and likeness of God. But then also other priests, and we have some confusion coming out of Rome. So it seems like on one side we have people who are totally allergic to the idea of criticizing prelates in any regard. But then on the other end of the spectrum, you have people who seem to be doing this all of the time and very uncharitably and very brazenly. And so I guess I want to ask you, do you agree with that assessment that these would be two pitfalls we could fall into, first of all? Definitely, definitely. I think it's human history. One of the things I love about teaching Scripture is that there's nothing new under the sun.

And if you look back at humanity, human beings made in God's image, capable of thinking and choosing, we're capable of the best and the worst. of thinking and choosing. We're capable of the best and the worst. And I think sometimes we can be very idealistic and maybe not looking enough at the reality. But I also think we can become so blinded by the darkness in ourselves and in the world, I think sometimes we miss it in ourselves, but that we feel overwhelmed. And I always say, you know, discouragement is a sign of the evil one. Encouragement is a sign of the spirit of God. And so I see, you know, we have to be realistic about the battle in our own hearts. That's why I love Catherine of Siena,

because as I said in the talk, she begins with our own conversion. And that's not to say that I'm not concerned with the world out there, but it's to say, look, the world is only going to get better if each one of us is trying to live our faith with ever greater intensity and really relying on the grace of God for conversion. Yeah, I think in my own family, the times that I start to get upset or get emotional or begin to vibrate in some sort of way is when I feel unsafe. And I think all of us are like that. You know, if we're in a relationship and we feel like what we just shared wasn't reverenced, or if we feel like someone's dismissing us, or if, you know, and we begin to feel unsafe, then we begin to get frightened.

And we begin to maybe act a little irrationally. And that kind of blinds us to perhaps the actual situation we're in. Like, I do that a lot. I'm way more emotional than my wife. My wife is super steady, super beautiful. You know, and I tend to be the one who, if somebody's going to be getting emotional, it tends to be me. This isn't something that happens regularly. I'm just saying when it does happen.

And I think that we do feel unsafe. Like as Christians in our current culture, in the current climate, we feel unsafe. And I think many Christians, whether they should or shouldn't, and I think they probably have a right to, also feel unsafe. And we look around and we can't see any way out of it. And people start to say things like, well, I don't trust Pope Francis. And Pope Francis is appointing cardinals. And those cardinals are going to appoint the next pope, and so it's only going to get worse.

And it just seems, as you say, like this sense of discouragement, and it's almost like an atheistic way of viewing the church, like that there isn't a good father who's in control and who loves us, but rather, you know, God doesn't really exist, and so therefore all we're left with is politics, God doesn't really exist. And so, therefore, all we're left with is politics. And so, we have to play the political game. Does that make sense? It does. And actually, what you're saying makes me think of a couple points that come from really the wisdom of Aquinas and of Catherine. I think the feelings, one of the things I love

about Thomistic psychology and anthropology is a positive stance on the emotions or passions that God gave us the whole array of feelings that we have in order to respond to the world around us. So for example, when we see a great injustice, which certainly we see often and frequently, we're supposed to experience a kind of anger enough to move to action. We're supposed to experience a kind of anger enough to move to action. We're supposed to experience in the face of something dangerous, a kind of fear. All of the emotions have a place. But I think what we have to understand is the emotions, when they're at their best,

are working in collaboration with our reason. And so to say, okay, I see the problem. I do feel either angry, frightened, etc. But to say, okay, I see the problem. I do feel either angry, frightened, et cetera. But to say, okay, what are my options here? What is the way to respond? And to actually think through, what is it that I can do to really help? But it's not just the thought. It's also that we genuinely love the people involved and the church involved. And I think this is why Catherine of Siena had such a brilliant response to the problems of the church in her time is that she was thinking and loving. And so I think we have to say, okay, if I really love the church,

if I really love Jesus Christ, if I really love my family, my friends, and I see that there's a problem, what can I do about it? And how can I respond? And the first battle line will be our own prayer and the conversion of our own hearts. And then when we are called to step in and take an active role in opposing evil, it will matter completely that we do it with charity. I mean, I think that's why Catherine was heard, because when she wrote to bishops and cardinals and even the pope himself, she did so with a lot of courage, but also a lot of humility. And I think that she also had to practice you know, voice our opinions, to work towards reform. But I think if we do it without love, it's never going to bring about a good. If we just spread gossip, if we just backbite, it's not going to help.

Or if we get completely overwhelmed and say, there's nothing I can do. Once a priest friend of mine said to me, you know, for every hour, and you can break that or if we get completely overwhelmed and say, there's nothing I can do. Once a priest friend of mine said to me, you know, for every hour, and you can break that into increments, 30 minutes, et cetera, of media that you take in, and especially news media, you need a parallel hour of Eucharistic adoration to actually do something about it. And I said, look, most of us wouldn't spend that much time on the media if we kept this rule. We don't have enough time to double it. But I think he had a point, which was, if all we do is let our emotions get stirred up, and then we don't do anything about it,

we're causing a lot of personal tension in ourselves. Whereas if we actually bring it to the Lord, we're actually going to receive the grace we need to discern, okay, if there is something practical, active I need to do, what is it and how do I go about that? You know, forgive me for thinking of this analogy. A lot of the work that I do is in the realm of sort of sexual ethics and pornography, these sorts of things. And I thought a good analogy would be like one of the reasons it would be inappropriate to watch softcore sex scenes, you know, is because you're stirring up something in you that isn't going to go anywhere. And I thought it's something similar here. Like we can get addicted to the sort of outrage of video posts and blog articles, but then

there's nowhere that energy is being directed. Exactly. I mean, that is Thomas Aquinas' teaching about the irascible appetite, that it's only meant to be stirred in order to take action. And so the concupiscible appetite about pleasure, irascible about danger and difficulty, they're intense appetites, and they're there for a reason. And if you're just stirring up the appetite and then not bringing it to fulfillment, then actually you're causing a deep tension within the person. And I do see, unfortunately, there's a huge tendency of people to just get really angry about the church, but not to actually say, what can I do about it?

And to be honest, when I hear people say something like, well, there's so much corruption that I should leave the church, I want to say, no, the answer is not to leave, because the Church's teaching and the grace of the sacraments are the answer. They are the antidote. If we went deeper into our life in the Church, that's the answer. I mean, it's not walking away. I said, if people who've done scandalous things were living what Jesus Christ taught, living the message of the Gospel, praying daily and receiving the sacraments, that would have been giving them the strength not to act in ways that were harmful.

So the answer is not walking away from it. The answer is diving in ever more deeply into the truth and the grace that are the only way we're not going to go those ways in our life. Yeah, that's good. It would be like leaving a hospital because it was filled with sick people or something. It's like, Nick, take your medicine. Yeah, this is really good. I love the book The Brothers Karamazov, and when Dmitry's trial was beginning for having – he was accused of having killed his father, it talked about this tremendous excitement all throughout Russia Russia and people came from far and wide because this was a spectacle. And I think people like spectacles. And so, you know, I think we have to acknowledge that in ourselves, don't you? That we find this exciting. And we

might not like to admit that, just like people wouldn't like to admit that they were at Dimitri's trial because they found it exciting. But I think acknowledging that reality can be the first step to acknowledging other good things. Yeah. And I think if we're exercising real discernment about our spiritual lives, which was something Catherine always wrote to her followers, you know, we should be able to recognize, okay, what is this actually doing to me and why am I seeking that? And I think to replace the negative with positive, I mean, there are good and beautiful stories. Like I tell people who like love to read gossip magazines, read the lives of the saints. Like have you read the life of every saint?

They're amazing. And I don't think it's a matter of ignore the world we live in, but only, I mean, discern. How much do I need to know about any particular issue? What kind of details does no one need to know? And how do I draw that boundary line so that I'm informed, but not just wallowing in darkness? A priest that I heard give a talk about this, it was brilliant. He was making the comparison in mythology to Medusa and how, you know, if you looked directly at a Gorgon, dark, ugly, evil, but fascinating. But if you tried to fight her by looking at her, of course, you get turned to stone. So when Perseus comes up against her, what does he do? He can't look right at her. He actually has to only look in the shield

and see her reflection in order to battle her. And I think those of us who are trying to live our faith, trying to protect our families, our societies, if we're constantly looking at the dark and the ugly and the evil, we're actually not going to be able to slay it. It's only going to turn our hearts to stone. But if we look in the reflection, and when he made this analogy, I was thinking about what is the looking at the evil's reflection rather than looking at the evil? And I'm like, whatever we know about the problems in our society, our church, looking at it in light of Christ's redemptive love for us, looking at it in light of his outstretched

arms on the cross, looking at it in light of his pierced heart and saying, okay, there is a wall of darkness, but there's something greater here, which is the mercy of God that is more powerful than any darkness and any evil. And then we'll have the strength to actually battle against it, not against the people who are trapped in it, battle the evil itself. And I think they're two different battles. So here's a question I have for you that might seem a little off topic, but it's not really. I'm actually asking this. Why do you think we like to gossip? And some of us are better at this than others in that we don't gossip, but there's a sense of consolation that we get when we gossip, even if it's short term. That's why we do it. We never do something unless we perceive

there to be a good, either rightly or wrongly in something. Why is that you think we like to gossip? I think one thing would be there's a tendency to want to possess information that others don't. They say information is power, right? So to be the first to tell the story, to know the most details, it kind of feeds a sort of intellectual pride. So on one level, there's that I'm in the know and look what I know. But I also think when it gets into the kind of gossip that's about people's reputation, there is something in us that thinks, if I'm pointing out the evil in another person, somehow that makes me look better, right? Like I'm not as weak or as broken. I mean, and Jesus, if he was ever harsh with any crowd, it was with the hypocrites, the way some of the Pharisees of his day wanted to look so religiously superior to others. And I think we really have to recognize that in ourselves and kind of, I mean, if we're putting other people down to build up ourselves, that is false. It is not true. I mean, it's not that you're better.

And I think if you really are living the truth in love, you say, look, just because something is true doesn't give me the right to say it. And I think even in the catechism, there's an amazing section about the right to information. And they say it's not an absolute right. I mean, that actually there are certain boundaries of respect. it comes under the Eighth Commandment. And I think in our society, we don't often think about that, that we don't have an absolute right to know all things about all people. And I think we need to revisit our speech and charity. I mean, and it is hard. I mean, we live in a culture where, you know, telling the story is in every way, shape and form is how we kind of get a certain social cloud or something. But I think to examine our own hearts and saying, what is this actually doing for me?

Because if you just say, oh, I'm going to stop doing it, I'm going to stop doing it, but you never examine your heart. I don't know that you get to the root of why are you even doing it? And what in your own self-worth is so deflated that you have to the root of why are you even doing it? And what in your own self-worth is so deflated that you have to build yourself up? And maybe people need to revisit, like, who am I in the eyes of God? Because sometimes there's a lot of self-hatred behind condemnation of others. And if we haven't let the Lord show us who we are in His eyes, then I think we can also be misreading those around us. Yeah, those are great points. You know, when we get angry, sometimes we do that because we feel

out of control and we're afraid. And so we kind of overreact. At least that's been my experience. But what's interesting and ironic is that when one gets angry because one feels out of control, one has just become out of control. And so it's sort of self-defeating. And I think something like that is happening here. We sense a lot of chaos. We're afraid of it. We feel hopeless.

We want to do something, but we feel hopeless. And getting angry at least feels productive. It might not be, but at least feels productive. It might not be, but at least feels productive. And so, when somebody says to me, you just have to pray, there's a lot of people get very angry about that, and maybe righteously so. They're just like, yes, I get that I have to pray. And suppose you're talking to somebody who actually gets it, because I think a lot of us say, yes, I get it, but we're actually not praying. But suppose you're talking to somebody who says, no, I get it. And this is somebody who does have a deep prayer life and a union with the Lord. But they sense that, and yet something needs to be done.

What do we do? Like, what do we, what do we, and maybe that's, you can tell me if you think I'm asking the wrong question. But people kind of get tired of just being told to pray because they want things fixed now. Or they want something serious to be done to correct the injustices that are happening, and they don't think they are being corrected appropriately. Well, I do think that impatience is a sign that we're not fully there yet in walking in the life of the Spirit, because I'm not saying we sit around and do nothing about injustice. I'm definitely not saying that. But there is a kind of impatience in the modern world that doesn't really work with the way the church works, especially the church, but also society in general.

Somebody says there's a problem and they say, how come nothing's happening right away? And having at one point in my life worked in kind of behind the scenes in a diocesan situation, my eyes were open when I saw how many challenges the average diocese is dealing with on a daily basis. It's from the very small to the very big and getting all kinds of impatient correspondence, calls, messages, et cetera, of people who want everything handled now. And the fact is most of the things that we were asked to handle, you can't handle until you get at least a fuller picture of the truth. So to say that, you know, you want justice actually includes patience with the process it takes to do things justly. I mean, I think people forget that for every problem, there's more than one side to the story, right? And so if you're going to be fair,

you actually have to take the time to look into things, to investigate them. And I think if someone knows, I think we have to discern what is my role in response to a particular problem. Yes, that's such a great point. I think the one, I heard somebody say, and I don't know which saint is the source of it, but it's great. They said, you know, the devil isn't going to get good people by big, bad, evil actions. Like most of the big, ugly temptations are not going to be the way the devil is going to topple those who are really walking in their faith.

But he will distract you from the good you were supposed to do by the goods that were not God's will for you. And I could tell a little story. It sounds totally off the topic, but I think it's on. When I was young and discerning my own vocation, I was really torn between becoming a Dominican and being a missionary charity because I loved Mother Teresa and her great witness to Christ. But every door opened for me to be a Dominican, and the doors did not open for me to be a missionary charity. And I always kind of was torn about this in my own heart and unsure, did I do the right thing?

And I was living in the year 2000 in Rome, working for John Paul II's World Youth Day. And I was walking down the street, and Joseph Ratzinger was walking down the street. And a friend of mine I was walking with knew him. And I said, is that Cardinal Ratzinger was walking down the street and a friend of mine I was walking with knew him. And I said, is that Cardinal Ratzinger? And she said, yes. And she said, would you like to meet him? And I said, I would love to meet him. So he came, of course, I've never met the man in my life, but he spoke perfect, speaks perfect English. So he saw me and she introduced me just by name. And he looked at me and he said, oh, you're a Dominican, obvious from my habit. I said, yes. And he said, are you from Nashville? And I was like, yes. And I was thinking, how in the world does he know

Nashville, Tennessee? But he did. But then he looked right in my eyes and he said to me, do not look around the church and think you need to do all things. God is going to raise up those who will take care of the poor and the homeless and the sick. But he has called you to be a Dominican. So grow and be a good Dominican. Learn the truth, preach it, teach it with love. And he said to me, we've never needed the Dominican charism as much as we need it at this moment in the church. Now, when he became Pope Benedict, this was really cool. I was like, I have my own private audience.

But I think this was, I mean, why I go to this story is, I mean, it's real, and it brought me great consolation. But I use it to say, you know, sometimes we think everything is under our umbrella of responsibility, right? Yes, how exhausting. And I see this especially in people who are, you know, doing great things in the church. You know, I see a young married couple whose children really need them, and they think they've got to run every ministry in the church. Or I see somebody who is being generous in ministry, but they think they need to do three more ministries, you know. And I'm like, you know what? There is a discernment, Emma.

Is this where I'm being called? Now, we are all called to pray for our own salvation and that of others. And prayer is not just sitting around going, oh, yeah, I pray. But then staying informed, contacting the people we can contact over the issues that kind of do impact us and our families. And if we each kind of tended our own flock, in a sense, I do think that is the answer. I mean, I went to a conference once on all the disastrous issues in this society. And I went with another sister who was the principal of a grade school, I mean, of a high school for girls. And she was just undone by what we heard at this conference about all this really negative stuff going on in the media. And she said, what are we supposed to do? How are we going to protect our students from all these issues? And I looked at her and I said, by doing what we do well. I said, if you teach them to love the Lord, you teach them the

gospel, you teach them how the gospel applies to day-to-day living, it is the antidote for all these big, holy things. But I think if you try to attack every evil head on, I'm not sure you're going to get that far. I mean, when I look at Jesus Christ, this is the Son of God, right? I mean, he didn't solve every problem. In the world or the church. No. There were still knuckleheads when he left. Yep.

But what he did is he was faithful to God's will for him in his circumstances. And I think, by all means, discern. Like, say, okay, I mean, I have some great friends who work in politics and in political reform, and they do address some of the issues that I don't address. I have other friends who work for the Bishop's Conference and are trying to give great advice. I mean, and actually it's working. I know people who are actually patiently and diligently formulating good policies, good plans, offering with great respect, advice to leaders in the church and in the society. And because they're doing it with a lot of integrity, professional excellence, a lot

of prayer, it is making an impact. But I think sometimes we just have to do well the task the Lord has entrusted to us. I mean, you make the best podcast you can to get people thinking and praying, and that is making a difference in the culture and in the society, right? Yeah. So, like, in other words, just because – like, here would be, like, a bad argument. You would say, you know, Catherine of Siena was a saint who corrected the pope. I'm being called to be a saint. Therefore, I am being called to correct the Pope or something. It's like, no, just because

there is a saint who happened to correct the Pope doesn't mean every single one of us is called to do that. And just because there are certain people who are addressing certain issues like your friends, it doesn't mean all of us are too. And maybe we've just got this bloated sense of our self-importance because we have a Twitter following or something. Like I have 50 people following me. Like they all must know my thoughts about all things all the time. This is one of the reasons I love taking fasts from these sorts of things. Last year I did this.

I'm thinking I actually am quite certain I'm going to do it again this August to take the whole month off the internet. I just spend time in prayer and also just kind of detached from this crazed world and spend more time with my family and to try and love them well. And may God give me the grace to do that and not just to talk about it. But yeah, I've definitely fallen into that for sure. Like you see the craziness online

and you just, you want to respond and you kind of feel very triumphant once you've done it and you've formulated the perfect tweet. And yeah, you're spot on. You're spot on. And I think not to in any way minimize the importance of those who are in public life, but I think you're taking a time off to just focus on your family. Guess what?

You're preparing them to have the inner resources to make good choices in a world like this. You know, I think we're losing the personal understanding of things. I mean, choices are made by individuals and people are making the choices they make based on very universal human desires. And if those aren't met in ways that are healthy and whole and helping them towards their real final end, then they're going to seek things elsewhere. And I think – and that doesn't mean we don't expose. I mean, I really do think different people are called to different areas of the battlefield, shall we say. That's right. We all have a lane kind of thing.

Yeah. And we can't fight everything, but we certainly – I mean, like I think myself, I'm a teacher of theology. And even today, one of my students was saying to me, you know, what does this have to do with the day-to-day? And I was able to make the connection. I mean, to say, okay, if you have this wrong view about the order of the scriptures and it taps into your understanding of who Christ is, it taps into your understanding of how you live day by day. I mean, I was able to draw it more tightly than that. But, I mean, I said it's not irrelevant, the fact that the way you think impacts the way you choose, and the way you choose impacts the society we live in. And so I think, you know, sometimes the kind of

smokescreen of the devil is big and dramatic. But I think a lot of the greatest things are done person to person. And, and really, if you want to destroy the world, you attack the family and the church, the domestic church and the church. Actually, I gave a talk at a women's conference recently and I was like, is it any surprise to us that everywhere new life comes into this world is what is most under attack? So I said, look, marriage... Oh, I never thought of that in reference to the church. Yeah. Well, it's marriage. It's parenthood, saying yes to the gift of life. And it's the sacramental life, especially of the Eucharist and of reconciliation. Like, I'm like, if you can get at where new life comes into this world, then that's, you know, whose work, you know? And I'm

like, okay, that's death, that's destruction. And I said, so because life-giving love is the heart of every vocation, this is the heart of every vocation, every single one of us is called to be a channel of life-giving love in this world, each in our own unique ways. So is it any surprise that this is what's always going to be under attack? I mean, in our own diocese, we just had multiple ordinations. We had five young men ordained to the priesthood in my own diocese and across the country. This is the month when there are many weddings and many ordinations, you know, and I thought, you know, nobody's telling the good story. Nobody's telling the beautiful story of the fact that even at this moment, when the church is so under attack, there are amazing people who are stepping forward and saying, I want to live a Christ-centered

marriage. I want to live my ordination as a priest, I want to live a Christ-centered marriage. I want to live my ordination as a priest. I want to live as a consecrated person in the church. I mean, that doesn't make the news. So I also think it's not just discerning what our role is in fighting evil. I think it's also getting the evil in proper perspective. perspective. I mean, I think if we let the media be our only and or major source of information, we're getting a really imbalanced picture. The story is not told often of the amazingly beautiful, good things that are happening in our world. And I mean, I find that the media very seldom cover the beautiful stories. And I think, well, go out your door.

Don't stare at a screen all day. Go out your door and see and meet people. And yes, there are challenges that people are facing. And yes, the society is difficult. I mean, I don't deny that for a second. But I think there is so much goodness. And I think if we're going to stay aware of how we can combat evil, we have to keep evil in its proper perspective, that God created this world, and God is sustaining this world. I mean,

in that it was something Catherine Sando always returned to, is that as messy as it gets, divine providence is at work, and the blood of Christ is more powerful than this darkness. And the thing, that's what, if we stop making those acts of faith, explicit acts of faith, one-liners, you know, Lord, I believe your mercy is greater than the whole world of sin. Lord, I believe your blood is more powerful than the whole force of darkness in this whole world. If we stop making those acts of faith, I think we will lose hope. And if we lose hope, then we're not in the battle, right? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so fantastic.

So tell me, let's get a little practical here. I want to talk practical in a few different regards. So, for example, you encounter people. I'm sure people have specific complaints or gripes about specific prelates. How do you personally respond when somebody, and I'm not going to bring anyone up by name, I don't want to put you on the spot or them, but like if somebody says something about a particular cardinal or a priest and speaks kind of whatever, criticizingly of them, how do you respond?

I think probably I'm very deeply shaped by Catherine's hand in this. And my own formation as a sister. I mean, our community has a profound respect and love for the clergy because they are the representatives of Christ in this world. So, I mean, if someone critiques individuals by name, for one, I kind of don't go there with engaging in personal attacks. I just, with anybody, I mean, even with political figures, I'm like, I don't know the person personally. And I just don't really feel like I can trust that the image put out there in the media is really fair and covering the reality. And I say, I pray for these people, but if they want to talk about ideas or the person's kind of what they stand for, I said, let's, okay, ideas. I could talk about ideas rather than persons. I find that most of the time, the criticisms people make about

individuals are actually too narrow, like they didn't get the big picture. I mean, in my many years of teaching, when someone would come in all in a huff about some media story about, for example, any of the popes that I've been alive to see, I would say, well, you know, let's take a step back. I would say, well, you know, let's take a step back. Let's look at what was actually said, read the context before we react. That solves about 95% of the critique. What's very interesting is soundbites don't really work in church teaching. And I've lived long enough and taught long enough. I taught under John Paul Benedict and Francis as Pope.

And all three, I've seen it happen. I've seen that, you know, they say something in a broader context and one line gets lifted out, and the media portrays them in a certain very narrow and limited way. And every time I've said to my students, let's read the context, let's look at the bigger picture, let's see what's really being said. And if necessary, go to the original language. Sometimes the translation is really bad. And like I said, 95% of the time that solves the problem. Okay. Yeah. What do you do in the 5% of the time then?

That's what I get. There are things that are really difficult. Actually, this comes from a church document, but I have to say it in simpler terms, right? As a theologian, one of the things that makes sense to me, and I feel like I'm called to kind of help people understand, is that not everything said at any level of church teaching holds the same weight. And in fact, very few things, very few, are ever defined in the church. the church. So most of what we're talking about is a teaching that if it is going to endure, it will come through multiple papacies and it will continue to be said, okay? If there's something that's an application, especially things in the realm of, say, social teachings, if you look at them, I mean, if you read the social documents of the church from, say, the late 1800s forward,

that's when you started having serious social teaching, things like from Rerum Novarum forward, there is definite, you could call it development if you want, you could call it change at the level of application. And I say, look, principles remain, but application changes. And so if you find something that is really a slightly problematic formulation, or even a seriously problematic formulation, let it stand the test of time because you have to understand, for one, the intentionality of a level of teaching. I'll use a specific example because I think it's helpful and I was asked to give a presentation on it before. After Morris LaTizia came out and there was lots of controversy over many things, that's very publicly known that that's controversial. I did say to people, you know, if you read the beginning of that document, Pope Francis says he does not intend to formulate any new magisterium. He is responding to and

summarizing what was said in the Senate of Bishops, and that he wants to open a conversation about some topics. Now, all of that language isn't just accidental. It's giving you a kind of interpretive key, okay? So, the interpretive key is, and the most important part is, no new magisterial teaching. So, for me, that interpretive key is, okay, if I come across something in that document that definitely seems like you could interpret it in the tradition or out of the tradition, and it's problematic, then why not use the interpretive key of, he said he doesn't want to introduce new magisterium. So, where you have ambiguity in the text, read it in the tradition. I mean, and to me, this is being intellectually fair. This is saying, and also recognizing that

if something seems to be outside the tradition, and maybe it's not as clearly formulated as it could be, it will stand the test of time or not. You could go back to old church documents, even from popes that are now canonized, and you could find texts that over time, the meaning was significantly reformulated. And that doesn't mean that the church has no serious grounding in its teaching, but there are very few things that are meant to be dogmas, defined statements. And there are many things that are applications, especially in social teaching, and that could change. So I think instead of being reactionary, I think, I guess this is my whole stance. So I think instead of being reactionary, I think I guess this is my whole stance. I'm like to be reactionary to me isn't as helpful perhaps in my own experience as saying let's interpret things within the tradition where there's ambiguity.

And then where you want clarity of teaching, it's not wrong to say can we get some clarity on this. Which is what some of the cardinals have done. Yes. And then respecting the cardinals have done. Yes. And then respecting the choices that are made. I mean, because whether that's done at the level of the diocese, the level of the Vatican, I think we live in a society that's like, oh my gosh, if I can get a petition with this many signatures, then I have to force the hand of someone in authority. But the church doesn't really work that way. And I don't think that that means you can't do that.

I mean, there have been some really wonderful, wonderful petitions that have circulated to ask for clarification or suggest ways to go forward in the church, and I think those are most appropriate. especially where there's divine authority involved, to formulate it as they see fit. And I think we can't be derailed by things that can be interpreted more than one way. And we can't just let that get us all off track and so caught up in the controversy. I think what's tough is that we know people who have been taken off track precisely because of the ambiguity, and that's where wholly inaccurate to what the text is and i know certain people or you know certain people who are now um you know engaging in sinful activities because of the like you know could be argued legitimate confusion is there then what do you do then i think that's where i think sorry to cut you off i just think that that is where i think people would probably push back on you a little bit there. Yeah, and this is where I think, look, we all want clarity.

We all want there to be truth. I think my own life experience is that there are people who are stronger in certain forms of expression than others. I think if a person is honestly trying to find truth, if we're really praying for them, if we're really presenting the truth with a great deal of charity, and really discerning, okay, it's not my role to fix the church and the world, but how can I present maybe the interpretation that is within the tradition, how can I present that more clearly, rather than like giving up and or getting involved in all the negativity of another interpretation?

So instead of investing our energy in constant battle, I think there are times when we say, OK, there's another way to engage this battle. And maybe that's a more – and I know theologians who are doing this, you know, trying to formulate the truth ever more clearly, more strongly. But I just find that I don't see that getting angry and feeding constant cycles of negativity and criticism is what actually changes things. I mean, so there are people who are engaging in behaviors that are hurting them, but I'm a firm believer in how grace works within the human heart. And it doesn't mean being totally passive before misformulations, etc. But I think truth speaks for itself. And I think experience is a great teacher. And so very often people who are in a situation where they're seriously, objectively, not living according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, I think they feel the dissonance within them. And if there's a sane and balanced

voice that's basically saying, look, this isn't helpful, this isn't truthful, like there is another way, then they're more likely to listen to the person who is just kind of all along been with them and for them and kind of ready to hear another version. because I've seen it so many times in my life, that it wasn't always putting down the opposing view that won people over to truth. It was more honing our own argument for what is true and good, and acting lovingly towards the person who is in a pattern where it's kind of self-destructive. I mean, I think, I believe that God is so merciful, that when we're on a dark path, we feel that dissonance. We feel that tension. And this is what has caused me to change in my life. You know, when I encounter people who see me in my self-destructive behaviors

and love me in that, that's where I feel safe enough to repent. Yes. And I mean, really, it's what I see in Jesus. I try to make Jesus the touch point of everything. That's a good idea. He's a good guy to follow. And when I look at the way he encountered people who were trapped in really self-destructive patterns, he actually didn't. I mean, he made it clear that what they were doing was not good. So, I'm not for, I mean, I'm a Dominican.

I'm not for ambiguity in the clarity of teaching, but he didn't just bombard them with it. I mean, he called them out of it. And I think called them out of it by loving them when they were in it. Now, he did engage in disagreement with the leaders of his time. I mean, he did say to the Pharisees, you are interpreting this wrongly. And I think, you know, he basically was saying, you're trying to live this external formalism instead of like really believing in the life-giving power of the grace of God and the Spirit. So he did say, look, you're not getting this right. So I think like, when I look back at Catherine, I think, you know, when she wrote to the Pope, what was it she was saying? Not, I'm going to tell you how to teach what's right. That's not what she said.

You know, but she did say, look, things are not going well in the church. You're appointing people who are not leading the flock well. And she promised her prayers. She promised, and she didn't just say it, she did it. I mean, she prayed, she fasted, she wept and offered sacrifice for the reform of the church. and even when the church was in great periods of disaster she didn't stop respecting the the fact that the pope had the authority to make the decisions that he did not just the pope the bishops and ultimately she put her trust in christ i mean she said look you know you hold the keys to the blood. You hold the power to actually change this world for the better. So she didn't attack the person. She pointed out the situation that needed reform, and she was willing to commit her own energies to working

for the reform that was right in front of her. Because for Catherine, the reform right in front of her, I mean, she did write those occasional letters, but most of the work that Catherine did was in her own life of prayer, penance, and service to the people right in front of her. I mean, she was tending the sick. She was taking care of the people in her family. And as I said before,

I think that the reason she was heard is that she had real charity, and it gives you moral authority. Because if all you do is argue against things, but you're not actually living a deeply converted life yourself, then you don't really have moral authority. I mean, sometimes people just throw around a lot of ideas, but they aren't daily working at their own inner conversion that is the seedbed of responding to grace so that they really are discerning where God is calling them to make a real reform in the world.

And I love how nuanced you're being because it sounds like if I said to you, okay, suppose there is a person who is trained in theology, who is converting their life, repenting of their sin, living a deeply intimate life with Christ, and also runs a blog where they point out certain inconsistencies that are being said and certain scandals. It doesn't sound to me like you're saying, well, you shouldn't be doing that. No, I don't think you can write about it. I just want to make that clear for our listeners. Yeah, but this is the thing. You need to do it with truth and charity.

And the first part, truth, I mean, making sure you're getting the full picture of what's actually happening, not just the little partial bits we're getting, but also with profound respect. I mean, I think that I find that sometimes people who are saying things that may be very truthful, but are saying it with a lot of bitterness and hostility, honestly, I don't think that is the path of Christ. I mean, when I look at his confrontation of people, he's truthful, but he's never against the reverence we need to have. I mean, you know, I look at John Paul II, he had to deal with people who were really in error in their teaching. I mean, there's video footage of him really correcting some liberation theologian. He didn't shame them, and he didn't irreverence them. And I do think

reverence is one of those kind of lost virtues in our world. I really believe that we can't make real and true change in ourselves or in anyone else if we're losing sight of the dignity that each person has and really acting according to that. Because, I mean, I can say to a person I love, I want to challenge the way you think. I want to challenge this idea you expressed. And I find that I can be heard if I'm reverential. But I think if you're irreverent, I just think that's not a very Christian way to approach it. And kind of getting back to what I said before, just like you don't get into kind of personal, you know, if someone brings up a particular

prelate, you don't necessarily go there. I'm assuming that you also wouldn't want to be on this show or maybe publicly anywhere calling out those that you believe to be being uncharitable. Is that right? Like if I was to say, tell me, like give me some examples. I know, I don't even think I could name names. I think it's a general approach because, honestly, if I come across even a news site or whatever that I think is always just stirring up a controversy, I just kind of avoid it anyway. Because I just think I want people to be truthful. I want to know what is necessary to be known in the public sphere. But for myself, that involves a deep discernment of, I mean, if someone's tone is anti the people that they're commenting on, for me, it's kind of an unimmediate, I'm not going to keep reading because even if

what they're saying is rooted in some kind of a truth, I just don't think lack of charity is the right starting ground for anything. And this, I mean, so if somebody really wants to work for the good for the church, I mean, I think we all have to, myself too, have to do a constant examination of conscience. Like, what is my real motive here? You know, am I just trying to make myself sound right? Am I just trying to, and if I really have a good motive, I really do want improvement in the church, change, how can I go about that in a way that's most likely to actually get results in a positive sense? It might be slower.

I think real change and real reform are usually slow. I mean, think about our own personal conversions. I mean, I'm pretty sure everybody I know who is working on living some kind of a serious Christian life has undergone multiple conversions in life. And I thought, did that get accomplished by someone in our face in a one-time confrontation just being ugly? I mean, generally not. But what did happen is that kind of long haul kind of willingness to love, as you said already, kind of love in the messiness, but stay consistent in the truth. I mean, certainly in my job as a teacher, I've worked with students for years before I saw even the slightest openness to my message or to what I was trying to get across. openness to my message or to what I was trying to get across. But I've seen huge conversions. And they were always with a lot of prayer, a lot of patience, and steadiness in the truth. So I would say to people who are blogging, people who are doing podcasts, you know,

work hard on your craft, you know, but don't focus all your energy on tearing down, focus your energy on building up. How can you make the truth more compelling? How can you make the good, the true, and the beautiful more visible, more out there? When there is something that you want to expose, how can you stay at the level of ideas and not attacks on persons? Those are just some thoughts I would have about that. Yeah, these are great. And I'm sure you're familiar in the second part of the second part question 33 aquinas addresses the question whether we ever ought to correct a prelate you're familiar are you with this and you'll be pleased to know before you respond that you he essentially said everything you just said so that's nice yeah i'm glad to know we're on the same page but like listen like here's what he says i mean he says there are instances where we ought to correct prelates. And that's kind of that's his response there. And so here's what he says, though. Since, however, a virtuous act needs to be moderated by due circumstances, it follows that when a subject corrects his prelate, he ought to do so in a becoming manner, not with impudence and harshness, but with gentleness and respect. And he goes on.

That's nice to know when you're in the same line as Aquinas. Yes. And I mean, it goes with the general principle of authority. I mean, even though we live in a world that's very anti-authoritarian, I think there is a due sense of authority. I mean, I think there's a precedent for this in the scriptural treatment of parents. Multiple places in scripture, it says, do not shame your father, even if he does wrong. Like, and it doesn't mean just put yourself in a position to be, you know, abused or mistreated. It doesn't mean that, you know, I mean, but it does mean when any, and I think it's true of anyone, but especially those in some kind of authority, there is a right time and place. I

mean, and should we correct somebody who is doing something wrong? Well, in any circumstances, it's actually fraternal correction is a form of charity. It comes under the acts of love in Aquinas, okay? But fraternal correction is just that, it's fraternal. I mean, you actually have to be on the side of the person you're correcting. Oh, that's nice. That's a good way to put it. And I think when I've had to speak, I mean, I've been in positions where I had to work with members of the clergy very closely, including those in the hierarchy. And if there was something that I was not comfortable with that was happening, to speak to my brother as my brother, you know, and think of him that way.

I mean, your words flow from what you actually think. So if your heart's poisoned, you're not going to say the right thing. So that's why you got to get your heart right before you can work in any kind of reform. But because I did love my brothers in Christ, and I did want them to be the best servants of God's people they could be, then I was able to say what I said with profound respect. And I think that that's really important with any group of people, but I think in a special way with the clergy that, yeah, we do want a voice that there are things that need changing. And I know many, many people in the church and outside the church who are humble enough to welcome a word spoken in the right time and place. And I have to say, especially among those who are serving in positions word spoken in the right time and place.

And I have to say, especially among those who are serving in positions of authority in the church, I've encountered many bishops who are very humble servants of the Lord. So I think the fact that there has been definitely some very serious, very problematic, objective evils in the history of the church, including the present. And those are awful. And I don't want to brush that on the carpet. I think it's important. I actually think it's a good thing that truth is coming to light, because it's only in the truth that we'll be set free. So where there has been evil, it needs to be brought out. And we need to get better advice, better systems, better policies. So all the people who are working in this area, I think I support by my prayers. I have, as I said, many friends who

work in departments where they're assisting in the formulation of better policies and diocese and in organizations. I think we have to, we have to protect God's people. But I don't think the way we're going to protect God's people is indiscriminate putting down of people and where there has been objective evil to use what are the reasonable measures of justice. current society, we tend to think of justice and mercy as opposed to each other, like that we could just be really merciful and let people off the hook and do whatever, or we could somehow act for justice. And that's, of course, not at all a Thomistic view. It's not a biblical view. I mean, justice is the foundation of mercy. So it's not a matter of just saying there is no evil where there is evil. I'm not an advocate for that at all. Because I mean, the entirety of our redemption rests on the recognition that sin is a huge injustice, that it is evil is evil. The Son of God didn't come in the world and lay down his life most self-sacrificing way, because mercy means

just brush it all off and pretend there is no evil. That's not true, because evil is real. And it has been acknowledged and there is a true darkness that has come into this world through evil. The Son of God showed mercy by acknowledging that evil and triumphing through love. I mean, I think, what is it? It's not just that He endured so much suffering. He did endure suffering, but it's the love with which he embraced the cross that broke the power of darkness. And that's why I think, you know, we who are his followers, we're not going to defeat evil by introducing more evil into the world. But we are called to be just and then in justice to go further by letting merciful love perfect our justice, not negate it. And I think when we're walking in true charity, I think we will better discern,

how do I address the evils that I see in myself and in the world? This has been really great advice, and I thank you so much for your message. And for those who are listening who haven't listened to a couple of weeks ago, we posted a talk from Sister Mary Madeline Todd. Be sure to go and listen to that. As we wrap up here right now, I just think we should maybe just suggest some questions for our listeners and for me, maybe for yourself too,

that kind of just stir some thought. And so let me just suggest a couple and maybe you have some as well. So like one might be like a question for us is, how much political, even kind of churchy political commentary am I kind of consuming on a daily basis? And is that a good thing? That would probably be a good question to ask. Am I serious about growing in holiness? And am I praying? Am I receiving the sacraments?

Am I reading the Holy Scriptures? You know, something that occurred to me several weeks ago was that I discovered I was listening to more kind of commentary than I was reading the Word of God. And by God's grace, that shocked me. And I was able to kind of delete certain things off of my phone so as not to do that and to kind of like listen to those podcasts that would kind of lead me into the spiritual life a great deal more. You know, maybe another question would be like, do you believe in God?

Like, do you believe that God is all powerful and all good and that he is in control? Like, do you believe the promise of Christ when he said the gates of hell should not overcome it. Because maybe you don't. And if you don't, then maybe that is where a lot of our anxiety is coming from. Those would be a few questions that I would ask just for myself and for our listeners to reflect upon. Is there any other advice or questions you would have? Those are excellent questions. And then I was thinking regarding the whole conversation we've had, maybe to add, when I am confronted with an evil in my personal life, in the societal life, in the church life, am I reacting in emotion or am I acting with

discernment? Because if I'm just reacting emotionally and not letting my intellect, my free will, grace engage it, perhaps I'm not really getting the most out of what I could be doing. And I love what you said about, you know, do you really believe in the church and Christ's promise to the church? And I think, you know, do you really believe that God can and does work in the midst of human brokenness in ways that may not always be evident immediately? And can you cultivate a balance of a kind of justice that is willing to act when needed, but also a kind of patience and perseverance to not give up when change seems slow. Do we still keep trusting in the Lord, His providence, the blood of Christ? Glory to God. Well, thank you so very much for your message. Thank you for being a beautiful religious. God bless your vocation. And yeah, thanks for being on. Thank you, Matt. All right, guys, that does it for this week. I hope that was a blessing for you. So if you

haven't yet listened to that lecture we referenced that she gave at Harvard University, go and listen to that. It's several episodes back, but it's definitely worth your time because what she shares in that is she elaborates a lot in that talk on what we talked about here. So thank you so much for listening. Why don't we pray for the church? Why don't we pray for Pope Francis? Why don't we pray that justice would be served to those in the church that need it

to be served to them, right? Like, I don't know. I'm like you. This is hard, but God is good. The Father is good. Thank you for listening. Hey, if you love Pints with Aquinas, or if you even like it, I mean, you don't have to love it. If you like it, why don't you consider supporting all of the work that we're doing? This is not just me doing this. We've got a team of people who are putting out pints of aquinas and the matt frad show and so if we could really benefit from your help if you could give us 10 bucks a month you would get a bunch of free stuff in return like um you know a signed copy of my new book you would get access to a bunch of free audio books from thomas aquinas and others um We have an exclusive audio library too. I just interviewed Michael Knowles from The Daily Wire recently,

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And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you, to carry you.