Pints With Aquinas - 164: How to study like Aquinas, with Kevin Vost

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you, that's right, you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him anything, what would it be? In today's episode, I am joined around the bar table by Dr. Kevin Voest to talk to Aquinas about how we can study better. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Really pumped to have Dr. Kevin Voest on the show today. Dr. Kevin Voest has done a lot of work in the areas of psychology and study in Thomas Aquinas. And today we're going to be discussing a letter that is said to have been written by Thomas Aquinas on how to study better. All right, that's what we're going to be talking about. And we get into a lot of stuff. We get into some brain science.

Starting point is 00:01:03 We talk about why music can help when we're studying. We talk about the importance of having a good place to study. We talk about how to take notes and how to be a good active reader. We talk about how social media is impacting our ability to pay attention to what we're reading. So it's a very fascinating discussion. And I have a surprise for you. That's right. Are you ready? Seriously, I'm really excited about it. So the music you just heard from Emma Fradd, that's my sister. She's super great. You should look her up, Emma Fradd, okay? There's a YouTube video out there somewhere of me and her singing in a coffee shop. If you typed in Matt, I don't know, Emma. Yeah. If you're

Starting point is 00:01:45 excited enough, you'll find it. Here's the thing though. I just paid Emma, I just commissioned Emma to record a study album. Okay. So I love listening to kind of ambient study albums when I study and when I'm writing. I tend to write in coffee shops, okay? And, you know, want to block out that sound around me. Sometimes I'll listen to classical music, but more often than not lately, I've been listening to these really cool ambient type, yeah, albums. And my sister is really stupidly talented when it comes to this thing. And so she has put a ton of energy into this album. She does all of the instruments. She's mastered the whole thing. There's 11 tracks on the record. The record is

Starting point is 00:02:32 called Water in a Wine Glass. Why is it called that, I hear you ask? Well, I don't know why. She said it had something to do with women who are pregnant and who are drinking water out of wine glasses while their friends are drinking wine, I guess. But here's the surprise. I want to play a full song off this record for you at the end of today's show. It is really great. I think you'll agree. But here's what's really cool.

Starting point is 00:02:59 The entire album is available for free to my patrons. Okay, so I am right now trying to revamp patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. I'm changing the gifts. I'm wanting to make this as, I don't know, an awesome experience as I can. Like another thing that I'm doing on the Matt Fradd show is we're doing these post video wrap up segments. So bits of video that is only available to you, my patrons. I just want to say a big thanks because you guys are what makes Pints with Aquinas, The Matt Fradd Show, and all this stuff happen. I've said it before. I don't care if it's getting old because there's no other way

Starting point is 00:03:34 to say it. I can't do it without you. So if you've been listening to Pints with Aquinas, if you've been kind of binging Matt Fradd Show clips, watching The Matt Fradd Show, if you've been blessed by it, if you want to give back, you can do that by going to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. You'll see all of the free stuff I give you in return. Beer steins, signed books, stickers, beer coasters, audio library available just for you. And now this study album. We're doing more audio books by Thomas Aquinas that are being released. I do these weekly intimate kind of rambles over a cup of coffee with you, my patrons. I'm doing now publicly on YouTube, these live Q&As, and I answer the patrons' questions first. So there's a lot of reasons, I think, also to support me.

Starting point is 00:04:16 So if you haven't done so yet, please consider doing it today. It really does mean the world to me and the team here that are kind of putting this all together. Go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. Give a buck a month. Give a measly 10 bucks a month and you would be really blessing me and blessing all those who are listening. Really does mean a lot. Also, I always say this as a caveat, if you hate Patreon, that's okay. You can just give to me directly if you want. That would be super generous of you. Go to pintswithaquinas.com slash donate, and you'll also get gifts in return there, but you can check them out for yourself. All right. So we're going to jump right now into the interview with Dr. Kevin Vost, but be sure to stick around to the end. And that's where I'm going to play that fantastic song. For the first

Starting point is 00:04:58 one, Off the New Record by Emma Fradd, Will You Say It or Shall I? Now, you might be wondering, well, okay, I'm not a patron, but can I get the record? No, you can't. The record is exclusively for my patrons. That's why I've commissioned her to do it. So I think you're really going to enjoy it. Thanks so much. And I hope that it will help you the next time you're in a coffee shop studying Thomas Aquinas or, you know, Camus. Don't do that. Okay. Dr. Kevin Vost, thank you for once again being on Pints with Aquinas. It's my pleasure to be with you again, Matt. Yeah, it's great to have you. How many books have you written on Thomas Aquinas right now? Do you

Starting point is 00:05:41 know? Well, let's see. I'll have to do a bit of counting here. Well, I've had my 19th Catholic book is in press right now, and they have all featured St. Thomas Aquinas in one way or another. Well, the one I'm holding in my hand right now, How to Think Like Aquinas, you say that you draw on a recently rediscovered letter from Thomas Aquinas, a letter that he wrote to a young novice on how to study, among other things. Tell us a bit about that. Sure. You know, I'm not sure how recently it was rediscovered. I read some excellent books on this that came out some decades ago in this century. But the letter itself is also, you know, there's some question as to its authenticity.

Starting point is 00:06:22 What we know about the letter, it's said to have been written by St. Thomas Aquinas to some brother John who asked some advice, you know, on how to study, how to better, you know, learn things. And we don't know who this brother John is. We don't know for sure when St. Thomas might have written it. Though we do know that sometimes Thomas did take time from all his busy activities in reading and writing and teaching to answer people's letters. So in any event, too, it's been pointed out that this brief little letter, every single point that's made in the letter is consistent with Thomas's other writings, which is how I was kind of able to use each of these little bullet-pointed piece of advice and expand them into a whole chapter by filling that with information that comes from Thomas's other writings. Yeah. For those who are listening, the book's called How to Think Like Aquinas,

Starting point is 00:07:14 The Sure Way to Perfect Your Mental Powers, again, by Kevin Voest. Yeah, I love how beautiful, I don't know how to say it, intimate maybe, the advice is. Like, one of the first things it says here, I suggest you be slow to speak and slow to go to the room where people chat. He says other things. Anything in particular you want to draw out from this letter that struck you at first? Sure, sure. I'll just say when we're putting this book together, I originally had a little bit different format in mind. I was going to focus on the way Thomas Aquinas talks about prudence or practical wisdom, the different virtues he says that contributes to that, things like understanding and perfecting our memory. And one of those virtues was docility or the ability and willingness to learn.

Starting point is 00:07:57 And the editor and I were going through things. We were featuring this study under that chapter on docility. And then we realized that the letter itself, the whole book can be structured after it. It is such a nice, intimate, simple introduction to St. Thomas. And one of the things that really brings it out is some of his very early opening advice when he answers Brother John. He advises him, this is my advice to you, namely that you should choose to enter by small rivers and not go straight into the sea, for difficult things should be reached by the way of easy things. And then he goes and gives these, oh, you know, you can bullet point them differently, but 10 or a dozen or 15 or 16 different simple

Starting point is 00:08:41 pieces of advice that basically start very easily, use very, very common sense pieces of wisdom, and then kind of get deeper as you go along. What do you think he meant by enter by the small rivers and not go right away into the sea? Yeah, I think there he's saying, you know, recognize where you are at the start of studying some new subject, that there's so much you don't know that you could easily drown and get overwhelmed. So start by the things that are simple. Allow other people to guide you through simple things.

Starting point is 00:09:11 A simple example I give in all of our life histories is like in terms of mathematics. We have to learn the names of the numbers and how to count before we can do addition and subtraction, later division, and so on. And as we move our way up towards the deeper things, algebra, geometry, maybe calculus, you know. So much of our knowledge operates that way when it's operating in the right way. Start by what we know, then build from there. Go deeper by first mastering what's more simple, straightforward. I know for me, there's always this subtle temptation to pretend I know more than I do. You know, you're in a conversation with someone and they bring something up and you

Starting point is 00:09:49 feel, well, I'm not going to speak for you, I feel like I should know it. And sometimes I'm tempted to pretend rather than to slow down and to actually ask questions like someone genuinely interested in knowledge. And that's the much more satisfying and appropriate response to that, I think. No, it sure is. And I know that, man. I understand that also doing a lot of radio and things, you get asked all these questions. It's just very frustrating to go, I don't know. You know, say, that's a great question, though. And you've inspired me to look it up. Great question, though, and you've inspired me to look it up.

Starting point is 00:10:30 As a person who writes a lot on memory, I'm also really embarrassed if I forget the question. But, you know, that stuff happens. We can't all think like Aquinas right off the bat. Yeah, I was in Canada recently, and we did this big Q&A session, and someone asked me a question about something that I knew very little about. But my pride kicked in. I was next to a few people on a panel, I guess I wanted to impress. And so I just started winging it, hoping it would wrap up and make sense, you know. And it didn't. It was one of those very embarrassing moments

Starting point is 00:10:56 where I'm two minutes into the response. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm talking about. And it's very apparent to everybody now. And so I just crashed that plane. There was no graceful way off of it. And that was a real learning experience for me, because I think all of us would admit, yeah, if you don't know something, don't pretend you know it. I mean, that's easy to admit. But we, I, fall into that sin of pride. You know, just like you, Dr. Voest. I mean, doctor is before your name. You've written books on Aquinas. I have this podcast. You know, people kind of come name. You've written books on Aquinas. I have this podcast. You know, people kind of come to you hoping that you know answers to things, and it

Starting point is 00:11:28 feels good when you can give people good information and true responses. But yeah, that humility is so necessary for knowledge, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. You know, that ties right into one of his other very early precepts of, you know, be slow to speak, slow to enter the common room where people chat. And, you know, that's also very scriptural when Thomas is giving us such advice. It says, you know, be quick to hear and slow to speak, James 119, or Proverbs 1728. Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise. When he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent. And I quote a guy from one of my hometown guys, the most famous of them all, Abraham Lincoln. I'm here in Springfield, Illinois. And he once quipped,

Starting point is 00:12:10 it's better to remain silent and seem a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Do you remember that episode of The Simpsons where Lisa quoted that to Homer? And in his head, he thinks, don't know what that means. Better say something or else you'll think you're stupid. And then he says, takes one to know one. Oh, I love it. I have not seen that one, but I love it. I'm very impressed that they were. Well, of course, The Simpsons were based in Springfield as well.

Starting point is 00:12:34 Yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty intelligent show, even if it is at times, what do you say, inappropriate and a little sarcastic and stuff. But all right. Well, I guess in particular, you know, a lot of people who listen to this show are studying. They're at university. I often go to places and they'll say to me that it was Pints with Aquinas that helped them get through their metaphysics class or their class on Thomas Aquinas. And so what in this letter, other than what we've already talked about, would be a blessing to somebody right now who's like, how do I study better? Because some people study, different people study in different ways. I know for me, I tend to study really well when it comes up to crunch time. If I've got a

Starting point is 00:13:15 exam due or a paper due, I tend to procrastinate a great deal. And I wish I would know how not to do that. And it tends to be like the last few hours, the 11th hour when I'm able to crash it all out and send it in. And sometimes I find myself being distracted by YouTube videos and things like that. And sometimes I feel like maybe I've aced the paper and then I don't really retain all the things that I spat out. What advice would Thomas Aquinas have for us on these sorts of things? That's good. I can identify with you too, especially in years gone by. We do that last minute cramming, getting ready for that test. Psychologists have a nice euphemism for that,

Starting point is 00:13:55 calling it undistributed learning. Learning that doesn't take place slowly over time, but it's all done there in a rush. And then again, the point that you make, when we've done it that way, it often doesn't have time to really sink in. So we might do well on that exam, but then afterwards, a little while later, we don't think about it again, and it's gone. And Thomas, his letter really is full of practical little bits of advice that can help us focus better, study more thoroughly. One of my favorite little bits of advice, he says, love frequently to be in your cell if you wish to be admitted to the wine cellar. So, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:31 he's quoting some scripture there from the Song of Songs where it talks about being admitted to the king's cellar. And I tried to expand on that in several different ways. You know, one, we can think of where we actually physically study most of the time, especially if we're students. Do we have a place that's maybe a little bit like a monastic cell where we can focus? Or is where we study like a vibrating, buzzing multi-entertainment center with our computers and television and radios, everything blaring? So we can consciously try to carve out a place

Starting point is 00:15:05 where we can have some quiet, some solitude. A technique I use myself sometimes is to have classical music just playing very softly in the background. So there are things we can do there. I also think in terms of being able to study when we're out in the world, you know, if we're waiting for a plane at the airport, we're waiting for a doctor's appointment or a root canal or something, or we can sit there and immerse ourselves in the televisions or the gossip magazines, or maybe think ahead and bring some reading material along with us so we can focus, use that time for something more worthwhile. Yeah. Time management isn't something I'm fantastic at.

Starting point is 00:15:48 I wish I would be because I think life would be a lot simpler. You'd think, oh, just take 30 minutes a day to kind of study this topic. And then in two weeks from now, I'll have read and understood this, as you say, in a distributed sort of way. But yeah, there's that procrastination that often kind of prevents us and we hold off. I don't know if that's a universal thing or if that's a lot more common, or maybe it's not. Maybe that's just kind of my personality type. Yeah, I think it's very common. I think it's becoming even more troublesome today with all the distractions that weren't even around in St.

Starting point is 00:16:23 Thomas's time. And I don't think, too, you know, Thomas, of course, as you well know, Matt, as a fan and student of Thomas like I am, it's just so full, almost any topic that's worthwhile, you can count on if you go into Summa Theologica, he's talked about it in some depth. And even this idea of study, of course, you know, he writes complete articles about a virtue of studiositas or study as opposed to a vice of curiositas or curiosity where we allow ourselves to be pulled away from what's important by all the little fleeting distractions around us. Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to my sister about this recently that Thomas Aquinas thought of curiosity as a sin. And, you know, in our kind of society, maybe we understand curiosity differently to how he was using the term yes but often we think of it as a good thing but no what we mean is the you know

Starting point is 00:17:09 wonder the desire for knowledge is the good thing but the desire for tidbits of information for the sake of titillation isn't and i suppose if you spend your days filling your mind up with those sorts of things um that can't be too conducive to serious study. That's right. And Thomas agrees with Aristotle who said, you know, it's better to know a little bit about sublime things than a lot about things that are very trivial. And I think in our day, you know, we were so pulled to that, to be constantly immersing through our computers, through our phones,

Starting point is 00:17:39 and just those little things that pique our curiosity but don't lead us to any, you know, really in-depth, worthwhile knowledge. Now, you're older than me. Do you find yourself kind of drawn to these things like social media or did you never kind of jump on that? That is a great question. I'm 58 years old.

Starting point is 00:18:00 I was going to ask you, but I didn't want to be rude. Oh, no, I'm 58. I also have my wife. It's amazing how much the world has changed within our own lifetimes. I was born in 1961. And, yeah, things like those distractions, I remember I didn't even own a cell phone until my mid-40s. But then I got one, and then it gets to the point where you think, how did I live without this? So I could be tempted to that.

Starting point is 00:18:23 I found I always had the thing with me, always doing the checking behaviors. So some researchers found that people now in America tend to check their phones up to 80 times a day to see if anything's come through. So I wasn't that severe, but I realized I was getting too carried away myself to where now when I come home, usually I put the phone in a drawer. I purposely try not to have it with me at all times. Things like social media, I dip into them a little bit. Things like Facebook, I don't really have much use for much of the rest of them. But even there, I myself can see that temptation. You get on that string, you find some interesting article,

Starting point is 00:19:03 you keep scrolling down, and then later you look at the clock and said, wow, you know, I'm watching dog videos or kitten videos. Yeah. Watching kitten videos, thinking, you know what? I kind of think what my wife is in this house somewhere. Yeah. Appreciate if I went in there and chatted with her a little bit. It's, I mean, you're somebody who has studied the memory, how we retain things. Have you been reading much research? Because we all have kind of anecdotal evidence about this, how it fragments our interior world and how it makes us perhaps less able to concentrate on ink on paper. But have you looked into any research about how phones and social media are affecting our ability to pay attention and our memories? Yes. You know, I have seen occasional articles on that. I mean, there's one book I cite in this book called The Shallows, What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains by Nicholas Carr. And what I've read there, you know, it makes a lot of sense. The brain is very plastic, you know. Our cells, our neurons can form new connections throughout

Starting point is 00:20:07 the lifespan. The brain is more plastic even than we realized decades ago throughout our entire life. And yeah, if we're just spending too much time looking at fleeting bits of information, pulling up an internet article, reading a sentence or two, getting distracted, seeing a more, perhaps more interesting link, jumping to that, moving back and forth, it really does make it more difficult for us to sustain our attention over time. Just sit down and read a book, for example, without getting too bored and distracted following one line of thought.

Starting point is 00:20:39 There is some research out there, and I think it's pretty significant. Not that we should, you know, dump this kind of wonderful technology, but that we should really regulate it. You know, a virtue is often a matter of finding the golden mean, you know, a mean between too much and too little. I think it's very important when it comes to our new forms of electronic information. See, yeah, it's a great point. But when Aristotle talked about, you know, the virtue being the mean between those extremes of excess and deficiency, he wasn't talking about these electrical gadgets that act upon us, right? So I wonder what he would say about the right use of technology,

Starting point is 00:21:20 because I think we would all agree that we need to use it rather than have it use us. But isn't it possible that we could get to a point where we may not be capable to use technology appropriately? I mean, especially if we're young and don't have the willpower to do it. But yeah, what do you think about that? Yeah, no, that is a great question, too, because, you know, I'm thinking just about that? Yeah, no, that is a great question, too, because, you know, I'm thinking just off the top of my head, Aristotle did talk about art or techne, the ability to make things as a practical virtue. So he'd be all for investigating possible effective technologies. But yeah, is it possible that it can kind of overwhelm us, especially the

Starting point is 00:22:02 young? And there I agree. You know, I I studied psychology and I'm usually not a big fan of the behaviorists, people like B.F. Skinner who talks so much about how we're just reinforced or punished by what goes on in the external world. But I really do see this in operation in a lot of our electronic devices, like that checking behavior, like 80 times a day for a lot of people, you know, it kind of operates on what they call intermittent positive reinforcement, the same kind of principle that works with, like the one-armed bandits, you know, the gambling

Starting point is 00:22:34 machines, you never know when a certain behavior is going to give you a reward. You know, it might be the next time you look, oh, there's an interesting message or it might not. So that uncertainty there leads you to check it more and more and more in the addiction to really grow. You know, it can really grow. So I really do see that kind of phenomenon happening to a lot of people in terms of all this technology, which, yeah, for some people, it can be overwhelming. I think we need to stop back, you know, stop and reflect for some of us to see if there are ways that we can back it off. Yeah. It was over a year ago now that I quit social media. That is to say, I got off of it and I pay someone to run it for me. He even has the passwords, so I can't even check it if I wanted to. So it's been over a year and that was a very beneficial decision that I made. And even now, I'm constantly tweaking these things. So in this August, I'm planning to take the entire month off of the internet, including email, just everything, just so I can to read The Brothers Karamazov in 20 days. And two years earlier when I tried, I thought it was completely indecipherable. I couldn't make heads or tails of it. And I think it was precisely because I was in that kind of YouTube, Twitter frame of mind where I was just there for a little clip, thank you very much, and I wasn't willing to kind of invest the mental energy into it. Oh, I love that, Matt. Actually, before I owned a cell phone, I happened to read that very book, which I loved. And I remember as I read it, I played

Starting point is 00:24:10 Rachmaninoff's symphonies gently in the background. But there, yeah, you know, a thousand page book. How difficult is that for most of us now to even think about that if we have all these other alternatives, you know, distracting us and claiming our time. So I'm impressed and inspired by what you're doing. I'm taking different measures myself to reduce seriously, back off from the phone activity and computer activity. So I think that's a wonderful idea, living like people did in the dark ages a few decades ago before we had all these distractions.

Starting point is 00:24:45 Well, I tend to have problems with moderation. So, maybe it's less of good for you and more of like, you know, because some people are very good at kind of moderating their behaviors and they'll say, I'm going to not check the phone today or I'm going to put the phone in the cupboard and that's it's Sunday and I'm not going to check it until tomorrow. Whereas for me, I find I make those resolutions and I break them and it's so disheartening. So when I took the month off the internet, I had my wife change the passwords to all of my computers and hide my phone. Like I have someone change my password.

Starting point is 00:25:17 So I'm not bragging here to everybody who's wondering if I am. I'm really bad at moderation. And so I find I have to go nuclear to get these results. But I have found it very beneficial. Now, that's excellent. And I think there are individual differences. Some people are able to moderate certain things. Others do better with a cold turkey approach. I remember my own case years ago, especially when we had kids in the house. My thing was, if you're bringing junk food in this house, hide it from me. I do not want to see it or know it all where it is.

Starting point is 00:25:52 And then it's not even a temptation. But with so many of these things, yeah, it's like kind of a chastity of the eyes in regards to all kinds of things. If we can enlist a loved one to help us, keep us away from it. It's one of the wisest things we can do. And again, I think, I guess it also shows our own, you know, humility to realize, you know, maybe I can't conquer this so easily on my own. Would you help me? Right. Self-knowledge, huh? Exactly. No, thank you. I was sitting out on the deck recently with a friend and I was reading a book and, you know,

Starting point is 00:26:24 I was smoking a cigar and having a drink and reading my book. And there's a few of us around sitting and talking and my friend kept checking her phone, you know, and like texting on it. And I find that incredibly rude when people do that. I, especially if you're in the middle of a conversation and they keep kind of just disappearing. And I'm trying to find the balance between look this is not this isn't okay and not being a jerk about it because i mean maybe there's a reason that if she had have told me i would have been like oh wow yeah okay go for it but so i was like i was pressing her like could you what are you am i not interesting enough like i was kind of

Starting point is 00:27:01 prickling her a little bit and she said to well, how come you're there with a book? So what's the difference? You've got a book in front of you. You're reading that occasionally while we're speaking. And we actually both thought about it for a while. And it was she who came up with kind of the conclusion. She said, I think the difference is you are acting on the book, whereas the phone is acting on me. And I thought, bingo. I don't know exactly what that means yet. I'm trying to flesh that out. But that that seems to resonate really

Starting point is 00:27:31 well with me. Like when you have a phone in front of you, it's acting upon you, you're you're sort of totally taken away. Whereas there's a difference, I think, when I'm just perusing a book. I think that's an excellent point, man. I haven't looked at it that way. Because sometimes my wife and I will kid people who are just absorbing those phones all the time. I'll call them their external brain, their exo-brain or something. But in a sense, kind of the point that you've made, it's not so much that you're holding a brain in your hand. You're holding a device in the hand that you're a slave to. It's kind of acting like the brain.

Starting point is 00:28:03 It's calling the shots. Right. Yeah, yeah. That is definitely what I'm seeing. And I suppose what we end up doing is we have these, not satisfying, we have these exciting encounters with Netflix and YouTube and Twitter, but it's sort of like you brought up junk food a moment ago, right? It might excite, but it doesn't satisfy, like a good meal might, and I suppose analogously, like a good piece of literature or something. You've brought up a couple of times listening to classical music. Why is it that listening to music, like classical music or other types of music, can be helpful for us to study? Yeah, and you know, there's been research out there. I'm not

Starting point is 00:28:43 really, you know, up to date on the actual scientific research on it, but just on my own history, I've enjoyed it. It kind of sets a mood. It kind of also acts as a white noise in a way and blocks the other potential distracting noises. I'm looking for a quote here in the book because another of my guidelines for going over Thomas's letters was a great classic, Sir Delonghi's book, The Intellectual Life. Yes, I love that book. Great Dominican there. And he has a little section there about the value of music for study. Okay. I actually have the book in my hand right now as well. I'm flicking through.

Starting point is 00:29:22 Great. I found it. He says, Who does not know that in listening to music, an intellectual may get an impression of greatness, beauty, and power, which is immediately transposed into his ordinary modes of thinking, furthers his purposes, colors his customary themes, and will presently enrich his work. Music has this precious quality for the intellectual that as it conveys no precise ideas, it interferes with none. It awakens states of the soul from which one in his particular task will draw what he will. So that kind of resonated with me because I'm a big fan of the

Starting point is 00:29:59 kind of soft classical music in the background as I study. That might be why I like listening to music that doesn't have words in it. It doesn't have a specific thing it's saying to me that I have to, you know, like what he was just saying there. That's right. The instrumental just captures a mood and can inspire you and kind of somehow hits the strings of nobility in your heart. Well, here's something that Aquinas says in that letter to Brother John that goes to perhaps what we were saying regarding the internet. I guess two things that would kind of be appropriate today and we could flesh out in a way that is relevant today. He says, above all, avoid idle conversations. Do not forget to follow the steps of holy and approved men. So, this idea that like we can follow things that we find exciting, and there's a million different websites, a million different senses. And we know that creation is good. The material things that God made are

Starting point is 00:31:10 good. So, you know, there's plenty out there that can actually stimulate us, that we can find interesting, but will not leave us at that level, but will draw us towards deeper levels of thought, especially for imitating the lives of saints. Thomas himself is a great example of one. You know, some of the popes and others have said that Thomas, you know, was so brilliant because in a way he inherited the intellects of the great theologians who came before him. He so respected them. And I like that he also talks about imitating the lives of good or noble men.

Starting point is 00:31:45 And one of my interpretations is that another great thing about St. Thomas is that, well, as he actually says in a later precept, you know, he respected truth wherever it could be found. And as much as he drew, of course, from the scriptures, from the church doctors, he also acknowledged the truth that he found in pagan writers, in some Arab theologians, in the Jewish theologian Maimonides. So yeah, there's plenty of good out there in the saints of the church. To your point about his respect for them, you know, calling Maimonides Rabbi Moses and the philosopher, and sort of referring to people who were outside of the Christian fold with respect. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Yes, we see that. I think it was the commentator was Averroes or Avicenna. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, he even gives those honorific titles to those men. He reads their works, he gleans the truths in them. When he thinks they've made

Starting point is 00:32:41 errors, he comes out and says that, because Thomas is interested far more, you know, in truth rather than just who happened to say what, you know, what their background was. So another thing I love about Thomas, that he so loves truth, he's willing to acknowledge it wherever it's found. And he says here regarding this later precept you referenced, never mind who says what. And of course, this is probably a colloquial translation of sorts, but commit your memory to what is said that is true. So it doesn't matter, as you say, where truth comes from, we can kind of affirm it where we see it. But that might lead us to a more complicated question. And that is, how do we know that we're not getting carried off into a wrong direction? We can start listening to a certain podcast or reading a particular columnist and thinking to ourselves, you know, this guy's got a lot of great things to say. And I've known people

Starting point is 00:33:30 who've kind of left the church precisely because of these reasons. They start listening to someone who does authentically have some good things to say, but it leads them into, yeah, into heresy and then into just kind of apostasy. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's another lesson we can get from Thomas, too, is he also read widely. You don't want to get stuck in one of those streams, right? Open yourselves up to different knowledge bases from different views, different perspectives, as we constantly see, of course, in Thomas, the way he treats every issue in the Summa Theologica. He starts with these objections, people who come to different conclusions from his. He shows that he has read those, but he's also carefully thought through them, compared them to the ideas of others,

Starting point is 00:34:16 and tried to separate, you know, the wheat from the chaff there. So we always need to do that ourselves. He says, you know, try to understand whatever you read and verify whatever is doubtful. Another one of his precepts. So we do need to seek our knowledge also with a critical mind, with a respect for logic and reason. In fact, in one of the part two chapters of the book, I cover things like logical fallacy so we can be aware to look for these things that could lead us astray when we're listening to other people, even people who we might respect for some good reasons. Yeah. Now, this book, now that I have it in my hand, The Intellectual Life, how do you say his last name? Sitalanges or?

Starting point is 00:34:57 Well, you know, I always say Sertalanges, but I don't know. I'm not- Yeah, I'm Australian. I butcher most things. Anyway, this is a fantastic book for our listeners. If you're looking for a great book on the intellectual life, buy a book, buy a Dominican called The Intellectual Life. And there's a quote here on page 121 that I've underlined, which I just want to kind of bring up because I think this is something that a lot of people listening, you know, might be thinking about, you know, like there's a lot of things they could devote their life to, you know, maybe they're 20 in their 20s or something or earlier and they're interested in many things and they're really not sure what to devote themselves to. So, I want your advice on

Starting point is 00:35:34 that but before I get it, let me just read this quote. He says, it is a painful thing to say to oneself, by choosing one road, I am turning my back on a thousand others. Everything is interesting. Everything might be useful. Everything attracts and charms a noble mind, but death is before us. Mind and matter make their demands. Willy nilly, we must submit and rest content as to the things that time and wisdom deny us with a glance of sympathy, which in another act of homage to the truth is another act of homage to the truth. Do not be ashamed not to know what you could only know at the cost of scattering your attention. Let me say that again. I got the emphasis wrong on one of those words. Do not be ashamed not to know what you could only know

Starting point is 00:36:23 at the cost of scattering your attentions. Okay, we could say much more, but great points, huh? Oh, absolutely. And his language, of course, is just beautiful throughout that book. So much wisdom there. And I know, you know, he calls it the book, The Intellectual Life, and there's lessons for all of us because he's saying that, you know, we can all have a call to intellectuality. We're all graced with intellects. We're not all going to be professional academics or scholars. Many of us are going to be professional academics or scholars. Many of us are going to have regular workaday jobs. And in there he's even saying, though, but anyone can set aside some time every day to enhance their intellect, to allow it to grow and to grow in knowledge.

Starting point is 00:37:03 So just a very, very encouraging book there, The Intellectual Life by A.D. or something like that, but A.G. Sertalanges. So suppose someone's listening right now and they're very interested in, say, studying music or English literature or theology, and they really don't know what path to take. What advice would you have for them? Well, that's a good question. I'd say, one, it is that know thyself. Find out what truly interests you. what truly interests you. And if it does interest you, be aware that even if it doesn't necessarily come easy at first, what really matters is if you're really drawn to this, can you master it with diligent practice, with starting with the small things, working on to the more difficult things with time? I'd also say, too, if there's a particular subject matter of interest to you,

Starting point is 00:37:46 I'm a big fan of philosophy. I'm also a big fan of history. I'd say, you know, read some of the background of that profession, of that skill. You know, find what people have done in the past. Find out what avenues there are out there to develop and grow in that area. And then try it for a period of time. work hard and see where it leads you. Now, one of the things Aquinas says here is, seek not the things that are higher than you. And this seems to be reminiscent of some language in the Psalms, you know. So, this is an interesting line here, seek not the things that are higher than you. And it's interesting for a couple of reasons. One, we know Aquinas is a champion of reason and in some sense is seeking to express those things

Starting point is 00:38:31 that are ultimately above him, right? That we can, as Aquinas famously points out, right? We can know that God is, but not what God is, that we can't comprehend God even in the beatific vision. So what does he mean? Like he can't just mean put your brain, you know, in the cupboard and just obey. But at the same time, he's calling us to some sort of humility. What do you think he means here? Yeah, and I think it's really rich in meaning. And yes,

Starting point is 00:38:56 he is kind of paraphrasing, you know, Sirach 321, seek not what is too difficult for you. And I think, yeah, one of those lessons, what's too high for us, as you stated, the mysteries of the faith that we will never fully grasp. We can only see God through a mirror dimly here on earth until we achieve the beatific vision where we'll be able to absorb more according to our beatified state. So some things, you know, recognize that there are things where our reason can't take us on its own. We have to open ourselves up to faith while we're here on Earth. So respect those awesome mysteries. Also, I take it from the perspective of, again, intellectual humility, where we're going to, you know, not try to jump into those deep seas before we've seen how we can work our way up those small rivers. So definitely a humility

Starting point is 00:39:45 there that will also open us up to being taught by others. In the book, I also play on the little last phrase where he says, don't seek things that are too high for thee or for you. And I point out that as time goes on, what's too high for you will hopefully change. There's a parallel verse in Sirach that said, don't lift a weight beyond your strength. Now, I've been a weightlifter for 40-some years, and some weights that were way beyond my strength decades ago are pretty much a piece of cake now. So I think, too, it is a call, though, to keep seeking, to keep striving, to stretch our limits within realistic boundaries. Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I want to know how much you can

Starting point is 00:40:26 bench. You want to tell us? Well, back in my competitive days, I did 380 pounds with the pause when I weighed about 200. That's fantastic. And have you found, like, I know that, as you say, you're a weightlifter. I'm sure these two things play into each other, right? The discipline that you need to kind of get out of bed and to hit the gym is not unlike the discipline you need to kind of get up and go to the study. Oh, absolutely. And Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas show how virtues of the soul parallel things like health and fitness and beauty of the body. You know, they go together. And one thing I highlight in this chapter too is how a lot of research is showing us how taking care of our body through strength training and aerobic type endurance training really has significant positive effects on brain function,

Starting point is 00:41:13 physical health and brain health, circulation, stimulation of various neurotransmitters and hormones and so forth. So it's really an intricate tie there between the soul and the body, you know, as the Church and Aquinas have taught for centuries. And I'll point out, too, even in that classic we've talked about, Sertalangi's book, The Intellectual Life, he has a few sections in there about taking care of your physical body if you want your thinking powers to be at their peak. Yeah, yeah, spot on. Two more points I want to bring up before I let you go, and these are two of his statements here. Now, I really like this one. The translation I'm reading, he says, work to understand what you read and make yourself sure of doubtful points.

Starting point is 00:41:59 So much could be said here, but one thing I've found very helpful personally as I've walked this Christian walk now for about 19 years since my conversion, a few times I have taken a subject that I was unsure about and have studied it relentlessly, right? So, one example I'm thinking of was several years ago, I was unsure about baptismal regeneration. And so, what I did is I took this a lot of time to study what the early church fathers had to say on John 3, 5, and who the first person was to deny baptismal regeneration, or Rex Wingley, by the way, what he had to say, etc. And I came to a point where I'm like, okay, either, if the church is not, if the Catholic church is not right about baptismal regeneration, then it's really weird

Starting point is 00:42:53 that all the earliest Christians thought the baptismal regeneration was a legit thing, and it wasn't until we had Ulrich Zwingli in the 16th century who could deny it, or 17th century, I forget. But, you know, so that, like, pursuing that truth and becoming sure of something I was doubtful helped me to realize, okay, there are other things that I don't know the answers to yet, but that's okay. Like, I can pursue them too. I can't pursue everything at once. But kind of gaining some kind of clarity on this issue kind of helped me have confidence in, say, what the church teaches to me in those things I haven't yet figured out for myself. Yeah, wonderful.

Starting point is 00:43:30 Right, right. Really getting true depth of understanding, even in one issue, you know, can branch out and set us up to make connections, to make ahas when we see some, you know, corroborating information, you know, when we're addressing other issues. So yeah, I mean, trying to understand everything, really go into depth, not to think about things at the superficial level. And again, Thomas is just so amazing that in this chapter, just trying to understand what you read and so on, I also kind of give what Thomas says, what is human

Starting point is 00:44:01 understanding? How does the human intellect operate? Kind of go through his psychological model where we go through the external senses and the internal senses and the powers of the intellect. Thomas said that very capacity to understand is one of the things that separates us from all other species on Earth. God blessed us with intellects and wills so we can guide our own behavior, so we can seek, you know, and verify truth. So, again, just the more we get into Thomas Aquinas and his deep understanding of what it is to be a human being, the benefits just, you know, redound to all different kinds of areas. Now, in regards to this work to understand what you read, what would your advice be to people listening, you know, as far as, you know, reading with a pen, you know, using underlines and stars and this sort of thing?

Starting point is 00:44:54 And, you know, how does this help us retain knowledge? Yeah, it truly does. You know, active reading there by being, you know, being involved. I'm sure we've all had the experience where we're reading a book and all of a sudden we realize we read a paragraph or a page and don't have a clue what it said. We just phonetically inside our heads mouthed it but didn't really pay attention. When you do that active, focused reading with a pen, maybe writing comments on the margin. I do this myself. I have certain symbols I use. The Cairo, if something is particularly important about Christ or the symbol for philosophy, which is philosophical insight, or the symbol for Cai for psychology, for psychological insight.

Starting point is 00:45:33 Something else I do with the Summa Theologica is I go through that when I read it and I underline it with colored pencils. And every time I reread it, I use a different color, you know. So I can see some of these passages are highlighted multiple times, you know, with different little notes on the side, because yeah, in that way, you can really take whatever you're reading and make it your own, so it really sinks in. So if you return to the same material after time, you recall some of your previous insights. Yeah, that's fascinating. I want to learn more about some of these symbols that you use. I'm sure some of our listeners, many of our listeners will find this very helpful as well. I have a, not as sophisticated as yours.

Starting point is 00:46:13 Obviously, I underline what strikes me. I draw a circle around maybe the word or two that really kind of hits me. Yes. I will star in the column something that's especially worth remembering. I'll write a C, the letter C, if the author is making a concluding thought. He's kind of built up his argument, but here's kind of how he's summarizing it. If you don't mind, tell us a little bit more about how you use these symbols. Yeah, I do some of the same things that you said there also, Matt. And as an author, I realize, too, I go through some of my books, and I'll put like a sea of certain passages, and it'll say MTF.

Starting point is 00:46:51 That stands for Memorize the Faith, showing this is a passage that I used in this particular book. So it also kind of tracks my chronology, where the thoughts came from, where they came into my own books over time. I will sometimes put marginal notes. I see a saying from St. Thomas or someone or reminds me of someone else. I'll put a CF or refer to Seneca's statement in his letters or whatever it is. Just kind of whatever works for you. Think of different systems you can use. I will also say, too, maybe because I tend to be or like to be kind of a neater person,

Starting point is 00:47:26 I try to do it in a way that's appealing. Like with the colored pencils, I try to write neatly. So it's almost, in a very basic way, it's almost like the illuminated manuscripts, you know, of folks like the Irish, the Book of Kells, and things like that. So you're kind of, in some ways, even beautifying the text with color, but it has meaning to you. Oh, excellent. Well, finally, I know you've written a lot about memory, and I don't expect you to get into all of that here, obviously. Perhaps you could point us to a couple of your books if we want to kind of delve deeper. But one of the things Aquinas says here in this letter to Brother John is, put whatever you can into the cupboard of your mind as if you were trying to fill a cup. So, you know, I'm sure

Starting point is 00:48:10 there's a lot of people out there who are like, yeah, I'd love to memorize this stuff, but maybe they don't know how. And I know we can't get into it all here, but what tips at least would you have for them to begin doing this? Sure, sure. If they have access to the Summa, you know, or even online, Sure. If they have access to the Summa, you know, or even online, the second part of the second part, the 49th question, the first article is whether memory is a part of prudence. And Thomas gives a few little tips on memorizing how to do that. I fleshed that out in my first Catholic book, Memorize the Faith, to show you exactly how to use these memory techniques. But if I just in a minute, so if I can make one point of emphasis, though, that idea, sure, to put whatever you learn in the cupboard of your mind, as if you're filling a cup to the brim. I say so many people today seem to think that you really don't need to memorize things, or you don't need to know a lot, because that computer has all the

Starting point is 00:48:59 answers, right? Or the cell phone has all the answers. And in a little scenario, I like to ask people is imagine you need to have a major surgery. Who would you rather have operate on you? The world's greatest computer expert sitting in a room full of the world's most powerful computers with all of the medical knowledge and history at his fingertips or the average run-of-the-mill surgeon down at the local hospital. Chances are I'd go with that surgeon. He wouldn't have as much medical information at his fingertips, but that information would be inside his own head and inside his own fingers. There is knowledge that's worth knowing, you know, inside and out in our own professional

Starting point is 00:49:34 specialty, but even what more so than knowledge about the fundamentals of our faith. What about a book you'd recommend? Obviously, this one, How to Think Like Aquinas. And I know you do get into some of this memorization stuff towards the end here. But yeah, any books that you've written that you'd recommend and maybe something else? Yeah, my primary book for the memory would be Memorize the Faith. Sophia Institute Press, Memorize the Faith, and most anything else using the methods of the great Catholic medieval memory masters is what that one's called. Okay, fantastic. And yeah, for our listeners, The Intellectual Life, that'd be that one's called. Okay, fantastic.

Starting point is 00:50:05 And yeah, for our listeners, The Intellectual Life, that'd be another one we recommend. Oh, yes. Yeah, well, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much, Dr. Wurst, for coming back on Pints with Aquinas and sharing your wisdom with us. And thanks for being, I mean, look, I mean, thanks for being so dedicated to this, quite honestly.

Starting point is 00:50:19 I mean, it's easy to say to each other, we should be dedicated to this, but your dedication to this has produced this book and many others that are currently blessing people and you may never meet them. So that's awesome. Glory to God, right? Amen. And thank you so much, Matt, for the work you're doing, getting out that good news about the wisdom of St. Thomas Aquinas. All right, all right. Thanks so much.

Starting point is 00:50:43 Hopefully that helped you, and I hope it'll help your study and all that good business. As I said at the beginning of this show, my sister Emma Fradd has released an album which is available exclusively for my patrons. If you want access to it and you're not yet a patron, go to patreon.com slash mattfradd, become a supporter for 10 bucks or more a month, and you'll get a bunch of free stuff in return, including this record. And I want to play the very first track for you as we wrap up today's episode. It's called Will You Say It or Shall I? It's about a 10-minute track and it'll just get you in the zone, I hope, to study. Here you go. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Thank you. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Pints With Aquinas - 164: How to study like Aquinas, with Kevin Vost

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