Pints With Aquinas - 165: Aquinas on happiness W/ Fr. Ryan Mann (part 1)

Episode Date: August 6, 2019

This is the first part in a three part series on happiness. Buckle up! We take you into the writings of Aquinas and show how his advice can help you today. Please consider supporting me on Patreon, here. Some of Aquinas' text: Article 1. Whether happiness is something uncreated? Objection 1. It would seem that happiness is something uncreated. For Boethius says (De Consol. iii): "We must needs confess that God is happiness itself." Objection 2. Further, happiness is the supreme good. But it belongs to God to be the supreme good. Since, then, there are not several supreme goods, it seems that happiness is the same as God. Objection 3. Further, happiness is the last end, to which man's will tends naturally. But man's will should tend to nothing else as an end, but to God, Who alone is to be enjoyed, as Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. i, 5,22). Therefore happiness is the same as God. On the contrary, Nothing made is uncreated. But man's happiness is something made; because according to Augustine (De Doctr. Christ. i, 3): "Those things are to be enjoyed which make us happy." Therefore happiness is not something uncreated. I answer that, As stated above (I-II:1:8; I-II:2:7), our end is twofold. First, there is the thing itself which we desire to attain: thus for the miser, the end is money. Secondly there is the attainment or possession, the use or enjoyment of the thing desired; thus we may say that the end of the miser is the possession of money; and the end of the intemperate man is to enjoy something pleasurable. In the first sense, then, man's last end is the uncreated good, namely, God, Who alone by His infinite goodness can perfectly satisfy man's will. But in the second way, man's last end is something created, existing in him, and this is nothing else than the attainment or enjoyment of the last end. Now the last end is called happiness. If, therefore, we consider man's happiness in its cause or object, then it is something uncreated; but if we consider it as to the very essence of happiness, then it is something created. Reply to Objection 1. God is happiness by His Essence: for He is happy not by acquisition or participation of something else, but by His Essence. On the other hand, men are happy, as Boethius says (De Consol. iii), by participation; just as they are called "gods," by participation. And this participation of happiness, in respect of which man is said to be happy, is something created. Reply to Objection 2. Happiness is called man's supreme good, because it is the attainment or enjoyment of the supreme good. Reply to Objection 3. Happiness is said to be the last end, in the same way as the attainment of the end is called the end.

Hello and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name's Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Well, this is going to be somewhat of a drinking session, without getting inappropriate. We're going to talk to Thomas Aquinas for three weeks, and Father Ryan Mann, about happiness. Father Ryan Mann has been on the show before, really good friend, really holy priest. And we decided to get together and over the course of three weeks, record three podcasts on happiness in general, and then talk about what Aquinas has to say about happiness not consisting in wealth, honor, fame, glory, power, goods of the body, goods of the soul, pleasure, or in any created good. So this is really a phenomenal series. I'm just so excited to

introduce it to you. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about happiness in general, our longing for happiness, and so forth. Here we go. All right, thank you so much. I really appreciate you tuning into the show where you and I pull up a bar stall next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Joined around the bar table with you, me, and Aquinas today is Father Ryan Mann, as I already said, and we're going to be discussing the topic of happiness. This is the first in a three-part series that I truly believe is going to bless you in a tremendous way. And just a heads up, the audio is a little spotty for the first couple of minutes,

and then it sounds great afterwards. Okay? Father Ryan Mann, what's going on? Hey, not too much. Good to talk with you. Yes, good to talk to you too. Thank you so much for being back on Pints with Aquinas. My understanding from our texts is whenever you're on the show, people sometimes come up to you and say they enjoyed it. So that's heartening. Yeah. It's really wonderful because we record these. I sit in my office and you're in your place and I don't know how it ends up. So oftentimes when I'm out and about, people will say, are you Father Ryan Mann from Pints with Aquinas? And I'll say, yes, I am. I never knew

I'd have that title, but yes, I am. And they always share something about how these episodes have blessed them. And that's really the main reason I keep doing it, is people came up and let me know they were actually listening to them. Because once we record it, I don't go back and listen to my own. So yeah, it's really great. Yeah, it's true. Sometimes you get on these podcasts and you really don't see the people it's affecting or reaching. And you're not even really sure if it's reaching anybody other than my mom so it's nice to know that there are a lot of people who are listening well and it is nice to know your mom's listening too actually i don't know if she is so nobody listens actually actually you said you said your sister listens though yeah yeah emma

does yeah yeah it's great so yeah who were you complimenting the other day my sister who did you say you texted me and said something nice about someone. And I was like, I just told her and she said, you're awesome. What was that? It was your wife. Oh, yeah. What did you say about her? No, I said... I forget this conversation. You were showing her a video that I had done. Ah, that's right.

You said she really liked it. I said, ah, she must be very insightful. That's right. Yeah. Way to pull that out of me to make me sound weird. Yeah, no one's going to understand that. All right, so anyway, today we want to begin our three-part series on happiness. And in today's episode, we're going to be talking about happiness in general, what it is. I want maybe hopefully you and I to kind of share our own misconceptions of it and what Aquinas meant by it, maybe what Aristotle meant by it. So maybe to begin, why don't we just kind of, I don't know, man, it's such a broad topic. I want to ask, what do we mean by happiness? It seems like the one thing all of us agree on, like we want to be

happy, but then as Aristotle says in the Nicomachean Ethics, we just disagree about what brings that about. So where do you want to start? Yeah, I almost want to just start with just like if anyone's listening, if everyone who's listening would just realize that like you actually push play on this podcast because you thought it would make you happy. Like every action is done, whether it's true or not, it's a different question. But everything we're doing throughout the day, we really believe it's going to move us to some level of happiness. And in fact, those people who intentionally do things to harm themselves, we usually like, if we love them, we want to help them. We want to have them get professional help. So they don't want to harm themselves. Uh, so like even just the simple thing of, you know, choosing to listen to this podcast rather than not listen to it. Uh, there's a belief, a desire an understanding that this will help you get closer to

something that you want to live, like something, someone you want to be, something you want to know. But there is the idea of fulfilling a desire and the understanding that will make you happy. Yeah. Now, what do you say to the people who are like, no, I'm not listening to this because I thought it would make me happy. I'm listening to this because I want to learn some things. I didn't even know what the topic was about. Yeah, and I would even say, not just me, but I think Aristotle and the tradition and Aquinas, Augustine, they'd all say, let's go further. You want to learn some things. Why do you want to learn some things?

Well, because I just want to know something. All right, so you have a desire to know know and fulfilling that desire, will it make you miserable or happy? Well, the understanding that Aquinas and Aristotle has is that a fulfillment of any desire or actualizing any potential to use their language is something that moves us towards joy, happiness, fulfillment, and we want more of that. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I would just say I think that's important because like you, I do a lot of work with high schoolers. And I have to fight for them to recognize that they actually want to be happy. There's such a pressure for them to play it cool or neutral or the three-letter word that's pronounced meh. They just want to be like in neutral or indifferent.

Meh. You know, like they just want to be like in neutral or indifferent. But, you know, the tradition, this Aristotelian tradition is just loudly speaking that you are radically charged in this world. What does that mean? Radically charged? Yeah. You, when you look out, you're drawn, things affect you, things avert you, things you're drawn to certain things and have aversions to others. You are desiring, passionate, longing, wanting, that that's actually alive in you. And we may oftentimes pretend it's not, or we may really bury it deeply because we've been hurt because we didn't get what we desired, but it is there. And a lot of healing and freedom and joy can come about simply in discovering, A lot of healing and freedom and joy can come about simply in discovering, man, my heart has desires that aren't irrational or selfish, but that they need to be understood and directed.

What do you think these teenagers you speak to would answer if you said, tell me what happiness is? What do you think they would say? It's a great question. So off the top of my head, I'd assume something like hanging out with friends. Right. They give you examples of things that make them feel something. Exactly. Times where they've been happy. They may be like, oh, seeing a movie, going to a concert, hanging out with friends, Netflix. Yeah. But if you push past that, though, everyone gives a simple answer, right? But if you ask them to push past that, like, well well why do you think that makes you happy they just kind of shrug and like whatever yeah well you know honestly like part of that there's a there's a there's an there's something

there in that response that's kind of accurate as well because in that we don't seek happiness for the sake of something else yeah so when you when you say like hanging out with friends well why you're like just just because you know and even though they're kind of giving it in a rather apathetic way, like, meh. I guess there's a sense in which there's some truth there. Here's a formal definition of happiness taken from Aristotle's Nicomachean ethics. Happiness, and the word he uses in Greek there is eudaimonia. Happiness or flourishing or living well, these are all kind of what he means by that word is a complete and sufficient good and this implies a that it's desired for itself b that it's not

desired for the sake of anything else c that it satisfies all desires and has no evil mixed with it and b and d that it's stable um, two things that struck me in that is just this idea that we don't desire it for the sake of something else. Like no one says I want to be, no one says I want to be rich. People say I want to be rich so I can be happy. No one says I want to be happy so I can be rich. It's the end we're seeking. And then it's, yeah. What else? You said there was two things that struck out to you. Well, maybe, well, let's see. I guess that it's not mixed with evil, because I've never experienced that in this life.

Right, yeah. What I think what he, I think, I'm assuming what Aristotle's pointing out to in our experience is simply that, you know, let's say you go out with a bunch of friends and it's a great time. Like it's a good, you have a good dinner, maybe even go see a movie or something like that. And you're laughing, have a good time. But one of your friends says a comment that hurts you. Like it's an offhanded comment. It's no big deal. It wasn't the whole night. So it was a good night, good food, good conversation. But when you come back that night, you know, that comment's still ringing in you. Like, and as we say, listen listen like the good we're looking for is all those things without anyone saying anything that

was rude or offensive or painful yeah uh and yeah you know we have that all the time i mean you go to a concert or you you know even going at night it's the summertime right now right so you're like outside at night and it's awesome beautiful Beautiful stars, nice weather, cool breeze. But there's mosquitoes. Yeah. And then I guess alongside of what you're saying, there is his fourth point here that it's stable. Because I think that's that's why we can't and we'll get to this. But this is why we can't experience happiness fully in this life. That's why this remains a veil of tears. Like when you go out with friends and you're having drinks and you're laughing, it's going to end. And I'm sure you've experienced this father where, when it's about to end, or maybe someone wants to leave before you do that kind of sinking feeling

that like, ah, like this is ending. If you go on a retreat and you get to know people really well, it's good that we're here. Like it's good. And then it ends, you know?

So in a sense, like that, that experience of happiness's good and that it ends you know so in a sense like that that experience of happiness isn't stable in this you know there's a phrase i don't know if you know it's called the irish goodbye you ever heard of that phrase no what does that mean the irish goodbye is like with for irish people if they're at a party they'll just leave and not say goodbye to people like they're just like they just ghost boom gone they're just gone and it's a joke it's called an Irish goodbye. And I don't know like the history of where it came from. But part of it though, I think is, you know, the sadness of saying goodbye.

Yeah. You know, or you have the opposite extreme. Sometimes I'll be the opposite extreme where an hour and a half later, I'm still saying goodbye to people because I really like, I just don't want it to end. Like I just asked every single person I want to say goodbye to. I just don't want it to end. Every single person I want to say goodbye to. Both are the same thing. It's this experience that a good thing is ending.

Some people are like, it's just going to hurt, so I'm just going to peace out. I'm just going to get out of here anyways. But other people are like, I'm going to latch on to it and suck all the marrow out of it for what it's worth. Of course, you can't stop it from ending. Neither one is a real rational response. But there's a rationale to it of what we're looking for. Here's a question for you. When is a time in your life that you felt the most happy, experienced the most happiness? And were you aware of it at the moment or only upon reflecting back on it? Yeah, I, uh, the first thing that comes to mind is like being out with some friends. Um, there's a, a great July 4th party I go to.

It's not on the 4th, funny enough. It's usually whatever the nearest Saturday is. But, uh, and as a priest, it's like five couples and their kids. So you're looking at like over 20 kids, and it's backyard party. We're grilling out. We're having a great time. We have fireworks. There's a big bonfire at night. There's drinks.

There's cigars. The dads are talking. The moms are talking. Then kids are playing. It's just like – it's just so good. I just am like full of like just delight. Like I just look out sometimes. Like I walk off to the side. It's a big hill, and I just am like full of like just delight. Like I just look out sometimes like I walk off the side. It's a big hill and I'll just look out at everyone.

I'm like, this is just so good. I can't believe like I could be a part of it. And so there are times where in the midst of it, like this is really, really good. But I don't know that I fully appreciate how good it is always in the time. Sometimes it takes like reflecting upon it or realizing when I get back home and I'm sad. And I'm like, why am I sad? I just had a great day that I recognize how good it was that it was so good that I'm actually sad within an hour of leaving and legitimately sad, wishing it wouldn't have ended. wishing it wouldn't have ended. Yeah, I think that I've shared this before, but the happiest I think I've ever been in my life was one day I was in San Diego with my wife and a couple of

friends named Chester and Elisa. And we went to this farmer's market right by this glorious beach. And I think we had a dinner together and it was just very safe friendship, right? Like where you feel reverenced, where you feel like, I i'm not gonna say something that's gonna ruin everything like this isn't a fragile place i can kind of be me and it'll be handled really respectfully does that make sense oh yeah just that freedom you know um incidentally i think like i think i am introverted um but i i really love being with people when i feel safe with them but if i'm in like a social uh kind of i don't know interacting in a social kind of arrangement where i don't know the people i haven't like you know that makes i get really anxious i think i'm not really anxious

but i think that causes some of my discomfort makes me want to be alone anyway so we went down to the beach and um we weren't planning on doing, but it was just a glorious night. And we kind of like, I, me and Chester, like, I think we stripped down to our shorts and we dove into the ocean and we're just kind of body surfing and the sun was setting and the sky became this glorious mango color. And I just remember in that moment thinking like, I've never been this happy. It's interesting too, because I mean, I've surfed a lot. I've been to the beach a lot. I've been with friends a lot, but for some reason, you know, there was that. And I remember as I thought, I've never been this happy. I remember thinking, and yet it's not enough. It's not

nearly enough. Now I think some people will hear that and not understand's not enough. It's not nearly enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I think some people will hear that and not understand what I mean. Um, this is why it's always hard to be vulnerable with people because you get misunderstood. Yeah. Right. Well, and I just want to jump in on that right there because what, what you aren't saying, Matt, is that you weren't actually happy. I think some people think like, oh man, this isn't enough. So you weren't actually happy. I think some people think like, oh man, this isn't enough. So you weren't actually happy. No, it's a mysterious part of, let's just call it the heart that opens up when you encounter goodness and beauty and love and truth that you were at once just grateful and delighted. And at the same time, you find out that there's a sixth gear to your car.

It's like you've been this whole time in fifth gear. Like, this is so good. And all of a sudden, oh, my gosh, there's a whole other gear. There's a longing within the longing that is awakened. And, you know, well, you know, while Aquinas doesn't get into these type of things, this is what it shows up for us in like the 21st century for us. We really need to hone in on these experience is that like, you know, right there, you have an understanding that this world is good and it, it can bring about great happiness and fulfillment and contentment. And yet for those who learn how to enjoy this world the right way, it still has built in a longing for more. And so it's important to recognize like, well, then what's the point of enjoying anything if I'm just going to keep being

longing, keep having hunger for more? Well, because you realize you aren't starving. It's not a hunger like a starving person. It's a hunger like a person who says goodbye at a party. If it says say goodbye, they say, I'll see you soon. Or it's like an appetizer. Yes, yes, yes, exactly, yes. So it's different than the destitute person who's starving. No, no, no, there is a tasting. There is an enjoying.

There is a satiating. But it's not a total bliss, total satisfaction. It's an awakening for more of this in a way that it wouldn't end. That's that fourth condition of being stable is that stability is not simply that it won't fall apart, but it's an enduring, it's a limitless. And so when you reflect on your experience, you get to know this thing that's just mysterious. You're like, I guess I want something mysterious. I don't know, like a good that never ends and is never boring and is always there. And I'm always fulfilled by it. And it always is bringing me joy and love and fulfillment and happiness.

But I have no idea what that is because I've never really experienced that. But I think I want something like that. And that's why it's a mystery. And this is what, you know, Augustine, especially, but even Aquinas will hint at this, but certainly Aristotle, the best he could without having Christian revelation, they're hinting at this is the title for God. In one of his homilies, Augustine defines God simply as all that I desire. That was his definition of God, all that I desire. Oh, that's lovely. If we look at the first part of the second part of the Summa, I'll just read, that's lovely. Yeah. Here's, if we look at the first part of the second part of the Summa, I'll just read, it's not very long. Question three. Let's see here.

Article one in the main respondio, he kind of addresses what you just began to there. So the question is, let's see here. Let's just get straight to the respondio. He says, our end, what we're made for, right, is twofold, he says. First, there is the thing itself which we desire to attain. Thus, for the miser, the end is money. That would be an example, he says. Secondly, the second end is the attainment or possession, the use or enjoyment of the thing desired. Thus we may say that the end of the miser, what would be another name for miser? Like someone who loves money is what he's talking about. For those who don't know, yeah.

End of the miser is a possession of money, and the end of the intemperate man is to enjoy something pleasurable. In the first sense then, men's last end is the uncreated good, namely God, who alone by his infinite goodness can perfectly satisfy man's will. But in the second way, man's last end is something created, existing in him, and this is nothing else than the attainment or enjoyment of the last end. Now, the last end is called happiness. If, therefore, we consider man's happiness in its cause or object, then it is something uncreated.

But if we consider it as to the very essence of happiness, then it's something created. So what I don't want to do right now is get into the kind of idols that we turn to to make us happy. We're going to get to that in upcoming episodes like power and pleasure and things like that. But what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean it's – this is obviously metaphysical and philosophical language. And so maybe by way of analogy, which he kind of hints at anyways, if my belly is empty and I'm hungry, right? There's a two-fold distinction in bringing about my happiness. One is the reality known as food. The second thing of that is me eating the food.

That I actually get it. Yeah. So like knowing there's food, but not ever getting, not ever getting to eat it. Isn't really that good of news. It's nice to know my stomach hungers aren't irrational. They correspond to an object, but until I actually can delight that in that object, actually taste it and consume it, uh, the food isn't that great of a news. Conversely, if there wasn't anything called food, I couldn't enjoy it. So that's like an analogy for what he's using here for God is that within us, you know, he called it's the will is Thomistic language is the will, right? Is this is the thrust for the desire for this something? What would satisfy this desire deep within us that gets awakened at little moments in our lives? Well, the only

infinite good, the one that corresponds to our infinite hunger. Great. So that's God. But knowing that God is good and God is real and he can satisfy me really only is part of the happiness. The fullness of my happiness is when I can participate or delight in or enjoy or properly understood possess God, which means only by being possessed by him. And so that union with God is where man's happiness is found and man's fulfillment. And so this is kind of what he's saying here is this twofold distinction.

Yeah. Here's what C.S. Lewis says, because I feel like we're getting into that argument from desire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For God's existence from desire. And even if you don't think that the argument necessarily works or is convincing, Yeah, yeah, yeah. hunger well there is such a thing as food a duckling wants to swim well there is such a thing as water men feel sexual desire well there is such a thing as sex if i find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy the most probable explanation is that i was made for another world and then in here's another quote from The Weight of Glory.

He says, We remain conscious of a desire which no natural happiness will satisfy. But is there any reason to suppose that reality offers any satisfaction of it? A man's physical hunger does not prove that the man will get any bread. He may die on a raft in the Atlantic. But surely a man's hunger does prove that he comes of a race which repairs its body by eating and inhabits a world where eatable substances exist. In the same way, though I do not believe that my desire for paradise proves that I shall enjoy it, I think it a pretty good indication that such a thing exists

and that some men will. Yeah. I mean, kind of our podcast is over now. Great job. See ya. Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful. This gets exactly to what we were saying about, uh, with the friends and the backyard and the scars and me and the and me and the beach, this is like an appetizer. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important, too, that C.S. Lewis and you and me, we really are, and Aquinas gets in this through some of these questions, we're really talking about the Christian revelation. Because Aristotle didn't have Jesus, right? So Aristotle really only reasoned within this world. So Aquinas several times will say, well, that's because Aquinas could only talk,

Aristotle could only talk about this world, or that's because he could only know imperfect happiness because he didn't know of a God who loves us so much that he, through his grace, can unite us through Christ in his inner life. And so it's a beautiful thing to recognize that even the discussion of the possibility of one day enjoying a paradise where our deepest longings are utterly fulfilled in God, like that's a Christian notion. That's that Judeo-Christian notion where God's involved. And there's a lot of reverence there, and it's beautiful. involved. And there's a lot of reverence there and it's beautiful. Yeah. You know, I think we haven't really discussed this, but we cannot experience happiness fully in this life. And I

think realizing that is perhaps one of the first steps towards actually being happy to any kind of degree. You know, like if you're seeking to kind of create your kingdom here on earth, as much pleasures as you can muster, getting everything just right, the summer vacation, the perfect spouse, the perfect children, the perfect clothes, you know, and you're kind of trying to orchestrate this thing in order to attain this thing. Well, you actually cannot attain it in this life. It's not actually possible, right? We say in the Hail Holy Queen that we journey through a veil of tears. That's what this thing is. And I think a lot of us are trying to set up Eden or the beatific vision, if you want, like here on this earth. And

it's frustrating. Like life's bloody hard. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think it's also, as you were just saying, the temptation to make everything have to be perfect, which is a real big part of our cultures. Everything has to be perfect. Now, it doesn't mean we don't strive to make everything good and effective, but things don't have to be perfect in order for them to still be good. in order for them to still be good, and as you were using the phrase, appetizer, for the glory that awaits us. They can be good, and it's still a participation and a springboard or trampoline to God. It's not as if God is reserved to only the perfect in this world.

And we can know that the more mature we get. Your friends say you want to go out on a on friday night you say yes and you're looking forward to it all week long get done with your work week you're going to go out for happy hour and hang out with your friends and you know you get home that night and your spouse says hey how was happy hour with your friends you're like it was good but like you're not totally it wasn't amazing yeah and if you're if you're still very young in it in like reality you still haven't really contemplated reality a lot, that's a tailspin experience. Where all of a sudden you start just tailspinning. You're like, it wasn't good. Should I not have gone out?

Are my friends not great? Or did I do something wrong? Should we have gone to a different place? But if you recognize like, well, it was good though. We had drinks. We laughed. We celebrated. We shared our lives and our week.

We got some of the stress of the work week off by complaining about our boss a little bit. And okay, fine. That was good. It just wasn't everything. You begin to find happiness, though, because you're starting to live in line with what this world can offer while acknowledging where the fulfillment happens. It's a real act of prudence. Yeah, that's a great point. Luke and Gomer on Catching Foxes recently interviewed a couple of priests who were talking about this.

Like when we do away with metaphysics, all we have is politics. When we do away with heaven, all we have is earth. And when that happens, the latest Star Wars film can't just be a Star Wars film. It has to be everything, right? Politics can't just be politics. It actually has to be everything. And so we see this kind of inordinate intensity towards earthly things. earthly things, you know, yeah. In some, but you also see the other side of it. So in one sense, you see people, this inordinate intensity, or the other side, you see people almost intuitively knowing nothing's going to really satisfy. And so just not even playing the game of life, just saying, well, whatever, I'm just going to check out.

I'm just going to, you know, I'm just going to live for the moment. I'm just going to numb myself and just whatever I can do right now. I'm not even going to try to make life any, I'm not even going to look into what's going on with me or these experiences. I'm just going to check out. Nothing matters. Nothing happens. There's no meaning. I would love to drill into that a little bit. Checking out, numbing oneself, dissociating. I'd love your thoughts on that. one's self, dissociating. I'd love your thoughts on that. Well, I think a lot of it happens without consistently exposing ourselves to the gospel, without consistently hearing the good news that there is water that corresponds to your thirst, there's a bread of eternal life that corresponds to your infinite hunger, there is a love that is seeking you. If you don't consistently hear that good news, then you're just left with starvation.

And after a while, you know, ho-hos will do the trick. They'll take the edge off. And so there really is in our culture, I think, more and more people just saying, I'd rather binge on Netflix than go for a walk or contemplate or ask difficult questions. I'd rather complain about the Real Housewives of Atlanta than actually look at myself and say, why am I not happy? What am I missing? I was talking to this beautiful young woman from Steubenville recently, and she was talking about dating apps and dating websites and how, you know, she felt a little icky about it, but understands that it can also be a useful thing. And so she was on it for a while. And I guess this app asks you like, what do you do for fun? And she said how disheartened she was that so many men said Netflixflix yeah just netflix and you just think god we're

becoming so uninteresting right you know but to this point of dissociating again and numbing and i sometimes i don't know the stats on this i might be entirely wrong but i wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing a um if we're seeing teenagers binge drinking less, fornicating less, doing hard drugs less, and why? Well, because they have a drug in their pocket. They have Netflix. Again, I'm not making a claim there. That might not be accurate. Sure, sure.

But at least the teens I'm encountering, it kind of is. Right. They're not going out and having promiscuous sex. They're not doing drugs. They're not going out and having promiscuous sex. They're not doing drugs. They're not going out and getting drunk with their friends. They're just staying at home and dissociating. Yeah. It's almost as if we're so afraid of the pain that would come with failing or being unsatisfied, we never even try. So it's as if someone asked me to play one-on you know, one-on-one with LeBron James or Steph Curry in basketball. I'm like, well, there's no chance of me winning. Why would I even play?

But see the opportunity to even play against a Steph Curry or a LeBron James would be an unbelievable opportunity. Like I would be crushed. They could, they could probably jump right over my head. I'm five foot eight. But the opportunity itself would be a thrill. But it's as if people are like, well, there's no point. There's nothing there. But see, there would be a good and something beautiful about even playing with someone excellent in basketball. Similarly, in the game of life, you may get turned down by that girl at work when you ask her out. Or it's true. Your boss may not even invite you to the golf outing or whatever it may be.

But to put yourself out there is part of the game because only by entering the game do we even have a chance at actually winning, finding fulfillment. And so part of the thing I find is people sidelining themselves, and they're not even trying. And Pope Francis would be the first to admit he's obviously no Thomist or anything like this. But he does say, he goes, I would rather see Christians dirty from failure at doing missionary work than not doing it at all. Amen. Meaning he'd rather see them trying and just failing at it and doing it really poorly than just being like, well, my family would never convert. So I'm not even going to talk to him about the gospel. Yeah.

So, yeah, there's this idea of even even getting going. That's sometimes lost. And it's there's really the word for me. I think the best word for this is anesthetizing. Yeah, that's good. I wonder what that means etymologically. Someone once told me it means something like being numb to beauty. Wow.

I don't know how true that is, but that's what someone told me it means. And what I think that just means is I'm unmoved by creation, by things, by people. This sounds like the sin of sloth, doesn't it? Very much so. Yeah. And I just think it's big. I think it's just gripped people where we're anesthetized. And so people want to tell you, chill out when you get upset about something. And they want to like roll their eyes at you if you're really happy about something. You're only allowed to be in this little neutral place. Yeah, yeah. I think that's spot on. I feel like I've had a recent awakening in the spiritual life and it it it made me realize how dead i was in parts of my heart and someone said to me and it makes sense that

you can't numb the pain without numbing the joy right so like life takes a bloody toll on you i look back on the last few years of my life right and my son peter was born he was preemie he was on a feeding tube for like months we thought he was going to die that was really traumatic um my wife had two miscarriages led to a septic infection she was in the icu the hospital for a month nearly died right then i had to have major surgery it's. My son knocked his two front teeth out, two front, you know, all of this stuff just happened. And I think there's this temptation that all of us have is to be like, well, that's, I mean, that's, I mean, some people have it worse. A lot of people have it worse and we downplay the pain, you know? And gosh, man, I really was numb there for a long

time. I remember when my wife was in the hospital. Oh, gosh. I had this DVD on the counter, walked downstairs with Peter, and my son, he was two, he said, we're going to have frat family movie night tonight. And I thought his mom was going to die, and I just couldn't handle it. And I remember Cameron was in the hospital, and I would just scroll through Netflix for like an hour at a time, not choosing anything. Like that's not good. I was just doping. I was anesthetizing.

I was trying to crush something. I just couldn't handle it. But you cannot numb the pain without numbing the joy as well. And just these last few weeks, as I've shared with you, you know, in private, like the Father has been doing a work in my heart. It feels like springtime. It feels like flowers are appearing on the earth, to quote Song of Songs. And all of a sudden, I feel attuned to the motions of my heart. I feel spiritual warfare. I haven't felt that in years. heart. I feel spiritual warfare. I haven't felt that in years. I feel the delight of the Father. It's almost like, you know how women typically tend to be more in tune with their bodies than men. Like my wife will eat something and she'll be like, oh, what's that? What's happening? Is there gluten in this? You know, as opposed to like a man who might be allergic to gluten,

who eats something and then doesn't feel anything and then throws up and only then feels in pain. Well, I'm kind of like that now. Like, I feel like I'm like this. I'm attuned to the motions of my heart. Just yesterday,

someone was telling me of a friend of theirs, a female friend who just started dating this great guy. And she's like, he's so amazing. And in the depths of my heart i started feeling accusation and the accusation went something like this no one would ever say that about you like you're you're not a great man like you're okay but you're not people wouldn't she wouldn't have said that about you and it wasn't out loud it was

just like bubbling on very low beneath the surface. But because my heart isn't kind of frozen, I'm like, what the heck is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got some renouncing to do. No, for sure. And I think this is what's important is on a discussion on happiness on a Catholic podcast is I'm so glad you made the move to, it really is a spiritual journey. Now, spiritual in the Catholic sense, not meaning otherworldly or disembodied, but meaning that like there is a spiritual activity of God and his angels and saints ministering and laboring to bring each of

us into his own happiness. Like God is laboring and working on us and in our lives to bring about not necessarily the most pleasurable path, but the path that's going to bring us to share in the most limitless joy possible. Conversely, the enemy and his demons are working very hard not to make us cold towards God as much as just to keep us meh, numb, just scrolling through Netflix, not choosing anything. Because if he can keep us there, then it's not too bad to where we have to cry out for help and it's not good. It's just this middle place. And you know what? There's an affection for a neutral spot where it's not too much God, not too much the devil. Nothing's too dramatic.

I'm just going to stay in this gray space. And, of course, Jesus didn't live there. And we're all united to him in baptism and confirmation. So he doesn't want us to live in this deception. But he wants things to be fully of color. And like you, Matt, as you're starting to feel these things, he wants us to be sensitive, like a wine connoisseur. You know, I have wine and I say, oh, that tastes red or that tastes white. But a wine connoisseur is like, well, that's from the

northern region of San Francisco. It was probably bottled in the early 19th century and there's raspberries in there. I'm like, all right, that sounds great. It was red. Similarly, saints are like, there's something in there that's not from God. They can feel it. They know it. And that's not a burden to them. It's a joy. And that's the path of happiness. And so happiness is a really, there's a famous secular phrase, happiness is an inside job.

is a really a, there's a famous like secular phrase, happiness is an inside job. Meaning like I have to go into my interior life to see what is robbing my joy. What's giving me joy. What am I afraid to feel? You know? And if I were to express anger at someone over something, who and what would that be? I've noticed that my relationship with my dog is a pretty clear indicator for how i'm doing oh yeah yeah like i will like i won't kick my dog but you know like i'll push him outside get out of the way you know and i'll um it really is an indicator like if i'm laying on the floor snuggling with my big beautiful bear dog i'm in a good place but yeah the seminary i probably should say this but the seminary a couple of my friends that we had Like if I'm laying on the floor snuggling with my big, beautiful bear dog, I'm in a good place. But yeah, to you. Yeah, the seminary, I probably shouldn't say this,

but the seminary, a couple of my friends there, we had what seminarians who were called spirit checks that I knew if this guy was annoying, something in my heart was off. And if I found this guy like, oh, he's fine, he's a good guy, then something was really right. So these guys in my own community, my own seminary, I'd be like, oh, no, spirit check, that guy's a jerk. Oh, no, wait a minute. There's something off with me. And the next day I'd be like, man, this guy's actually pretty delightful. And I'd be like,

oh, I'm in a good place today. Yeah. Yeah. There are some people in our lives that are like that. Yeah. I mean, this might be too broad a question as we begin to wrap up today, but like in your own life, I mean, I'm sure I don't know all of your story, but I'm sure you've experienced something like I've experienced, like times of desolation or times where you had turned from the Lord and were kind of blah, you know, or meh, as you say. Yeah. But how do you keep alive this, your heart? I mean, this is what we're talking about, isn't it? Yeah, I think for me, this sounds very dramatic, but almost my whole life growing up was in a place like that. I had a very broken

home and just some family members who were just really plagued by, I really believe, demons in many ways. And just was a really tough life growing up. So I had to learn consolation or learn goodness or learn love that it was trustworthy. But I remember my fifth year at the seminary, we were in first year of theology. I just was in such a dark, miserable, kind of like whatever place, I didn't care what happened to me. And all I kept doing, though, was I kept doing the exterior practices that I knew saints did. Confession, honest sharing of my heart with someone who knows the Lord, trying to go to my prayer time. I would describe my prayer time as chewing sand. And I just kept doing that. And I had a wise priest just said, the only way out is through. And he's like, just keep saying yes, keep doing it. And over time, the Lord put

some people in my life that were actually able to speak into it and help me. Um, but, uh, it was, I mean, it was just heartbreaking and numb and miserable. And yet it wasn't miserable enough for me to really think that I had it that bad. Uh, and to be honest, I mean, this is a podcast on happiness, but that's part of the enemy's activity is to make you look at other people and say, well, they have it worse. So I should be grateful. Yeah, yeah, totally. That's part of the enemy to keep you. It's almost like keeping you picking the scab so it never heals. He doesn't really want you to be free and happy at all. He wants you constantly in that place of like going back to these ways, this way, these patterns of thinking and feeling and relating that keep you entrenched there. And so there really is an enemy independent of our mind and

will that is attacking us to keep us in this prison. But it says in the prophet Isaiah, man was not made for the dungeon. And this is the same reading we get on Holy Saturday, because Jesus goes into the dungeon to grab you, personally you by the hand and say, I love you too much. No more. Come with me. But of course, we have to repent and surrender all these things we've come to cope with in the dungeon, a certain way of thinking about ourselves, a certain way of liking the climate in there, because we have to learn. It's like Stockholm syndrome. We've become to love our captors just to survive. And Jesus says, they were captors. They don't love you. Time to be free.

survive. And Jesus says, they were captors. They don't love you. Time to be free. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the enemy. I've been thinking about this a lot lately that Christianity makes no sense without reference to the demonic. Any more than Lord of the Rings makes sense without reference to Sauron. I mean, like, I think this is how most of us understand Christianity. You know, we were like, well, God, there's God and he exists and he loves you and he wants relationship with you. And he sent his son to die for you so you could be with him. But of course, he won't drag you into heaven. And so if you don't want to be with him, you don't have to be, you know, and that's true. But it's woefully incomplete.

It would be like saying about Lord of the Rings. Well, there was this ring and it sucked. And it really wasn't conducive to the flourishing of Hobbiton. And so Frodo was sent on this, like, you got to get rid of this ring. And so like Sam helped him and they just went, they just destroyed it. And like, that was so much cooler for everybody. Everyone was just happier, you know? That'd be a real quick book. Yeah, exactly. But when you read the scriptures, you cannot not bump into demonic warfare. There is an enemy who hates us intensely and wants to drag us into hell.

Well, and remember, he attacks on several levels. So even with this topic of happiness and Aquinas, one of the things he attacks, and it took me a long time to begin to recognize this, is he attacks even the intellect. So it's not just a disordered desire or a temptation on your affect or a disordered will, but he attacks the very images that are in our minds of God, of happiness, of freedom, and he distorts them so that we don't even want to walk the path. We don't even want to believe. And some people say things like, well, I have this desire to be happy, but then right away I think, well, there's no way I could do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, there's a battle. Yeah, there is a battle. And I think one of the things I found really helpful, and this comes from Neil Lozano and others, is the kind of renouncing of lies and agreements that we've made about ourselves and about God. Like I had a really down day a couple of weeks ago. Like I messed up, I did something I shouldn't have. And I just felt such shame. I was laying on my bathroom floor. It was pretty dramatic. And I remember thinking like, I wish you would fight for me, God, the way Satan appears to be fighting for me. Like I wish you were more interested in my good

than Satan is more interested in having me. You know, and I think we've got to be so bloody careful about those things. It's one thing to say, where are you, Father? It's another thing to say, you've abandoned me because you don't love me. And of course you would, you know. So, that next morning, I woke up at three in the morning, couldn't get back to sleep. I was up for about an hour and a half and I just sat on my bed and I just asked the Holy Spirit to reveal to me the agreements I had made about him. And I just renounced them. Like in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, I renounce the lie that you don't care about me. And I announce in the name, like in Jesus, I can cast all my anxieties upon you because you care about me.

You know? So important. Like we have an enemy who's here to steal, kill, and destroy, as our Lord says in John 10.10, but he is calm that we may have life and life to the full. And this is cool because this is kind of what we're talking about right there, right? The happiness that the Father wants in His children. Absolutely. You know, and one final thing before I know we're wrapping up here

is, as I was reflecting on this for today, I wanted to talk about Jordan Peterson for just a minute. Let's do it. Only because I know a lot of people listen to him who also listen to you and Bishop Robert Barron and all these things. So he's kind of become a very big icon, right? But I'd be interested to ask anyone if they think Jordan Peterson is a model of happiness. And I think the reason why Aquinas answers in his article eight of this section on whether man's happiness consists in the vision of divine essence. And what he just means is whether or not is the happiness, do we have to be participating in God's inner life or can we just stand on the outside of it and just know what's there? And see, Jordan Peterson knows, he's already admitted that he knows there's some sort of God out there.

He doesn't like the word God, but he'll say he knows some sort of first cause, a creator. He can start to acknowledge that. And he's slowly being haunted by the Christian story. He'll call it the Christian myths, drawing him. But because he hasn't yet surrendered to the gift of supernatural faith that actually puts you already tasting the interior life of God, which makes you hunger for him and work for him and strive in holiness. Because he's not there yet, he really doesn't know what God is and that he is called to share in that. And so there still is a lack of joy and delight in him as that stays clouded for him. Now, he's on his journey. We've all seen on YouTube over the last couple of years, he's grown immensely

and keep the prayers going for him. But I just wanted to point out the Jordan Peterson phenomenon, because he is a great example of someone, as Aquinas would say, who is seeking happiness, asking rational questions, reflecting on his experience, reading a lot, talking to people. But I don't think he knows what God is, that is to say the revelation of divine love, self-giving love, joy, fulfillment, all these things. And therefore, he doesn't see that he could participate in that through Jesus and the grace of the church and the sacraments. So I just wanted to put that out there towards the end. As you wrap up here, let's say a prayer for him. Would you like to lead us in that?

I'd love to, yeah. Yeah. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen. God, our Father, you've created every single man and woman that's ever existed. And we lift up to you your creation, Jordan Peterson, who already in your heart is your son. You love him. We lift him up to you and we ask that you continue to enlighten his mind and heart, that you would continue to bring his family and pour upon his family healing and peace. And you would draw him so deeply into

Jesus that like Saul, who became Paul, right? Or Simon who became Peter, that he too would have such a transformation identity and be a witness to the nations that you are true, you are Lord, and you are, as Augustine says, all we desire. Through Mary and Joseph, may Almighty God bless Jordan Peterson and all of you, the Father and the Son

and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thanks so much. Absolutely. All right, y'all, that does it for this first part in a three-part series on happiness. Be sure to check back next week where we will begin to discuss the things that don't make us happy, even though we keep turning towards them, hoping that they will. If you're not yet a patron, would you please go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, if you can, and give a dollar a month, five bucks a month, 10 bucks a month. You'll see all of the really cool gifts I give you in return. It blesses this show. It enables

this show and the Matt Fradd show to continue. And it's a tremendous help. We've already raised enough patrons to get Father Gregory Pine on every other episode. We're going to begin that in September. And now we're trying to get a Pints with Aquinas app up and running. I think that's going to be really beneficial to people, even though it costs quite a bit. And then the next step would be to try and get two Matt Fradd shows coming out on YouTube every month. That'd be cool. So that's what we're trying to do. And we've got a whole team here working with us and you're making this happen if you're a patron. So if you are, thank you. If you're not yet, go to patreon.com slash mattfradd. And if you hate Patreon and just want to give directly, you can go to pintswithaquinas.com slash donate.

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Run out of words. Don't know how to formulate this sentence properly. Should I try it again? I'm not going to try it again. I'm pretty sure you, to carry you. There were birds in your tears falling from the sky Into a dry riverbed that began to flow down to A cross towering high up above the water And maple trees surrounded it leaves caught flame With golden embers