Pints With Aquinas - 167: Will pleasure make me happy? W/ Fr. Ryan Mann (part 3)

Episode Date: August 20, 2019

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G'day, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. Today, we will be joined around the bar table by Father Ryan Mann. I nearly said Father Gregory Pine. Father Ryan Mann to discuss happiness. This is the third in a three-part series we're doing. Man, work, mouth, work. Third in a three-part series we're doing on happiness. So if you haven't yet listened to the first two episodes, which are just before this one, maybe go listen to them them you won't be lost if you listen to this one first if you listen to this one you're going to want to listen to the other two do whatever you want i'm not telling you what to do i'm just saying this is the third part in a three-part series and we talk about a lot of stuff regarding happiness and how to be happy Welcome back to Binds with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy.

Today, Father Ryan Mann and I talk about how to be happy. And we have a look at what Aquinas has to say about happiness and how power can't make us happy, how pleasure cannot make us happy, how no good of the soul can make us happy and much else besides. But I wanted to share something quite personal with you. When I record these episodes with Father Ryan Mann, we usually banter about for the first 10 or so minutes and then we click record. But what we shared was really helpful. I mean, I shared something that I'm going through right now, and he offered some advice. And the advice was so beautiful that I asked him after the interview, can I share this with people? So I'm going to share that with you. Again, this was not meant for the public. So please be gentle with what I'm sharing because I'm being very vulnerable with Father. And he offered some beautiful advice. And it's my suspicion that this is going to be a blessing to many of you as well. Here we go. Hello.

Hello. Hey, man. How are you doing? What's going on? Sorry about that. Yeah, I'm just going to tell my son one thing, and then I can click record. Awesome. How are you doing today? Yeah, doing, oh, man, doing all right. That's good.

I know you said you were trying to get a lot in because you're taking August off, right? Yeah. I also just feel like the good father has been working beautiful things in my heart and I feel like I've been waking up and now I feel like I'm falling back into a coma and I'm terrified. Don't know if that makes sense, but. No, it does. It does. Yeah. I feel like I was banging on all cylinders for about four weeks. I'm like walking around. I'm seeing people's pain. I feel the blessing of the Father. And now I just feel like I'm numbing up again and I'm so afraid.

It's kind of like if you woke up from a coma, and you were like, yes. And then you get the sunlight pouring through the window, your loved ones around you. You're like, oh, I'm back. And then you start feeling like, oh, God, it's happening again. I'm falling back into the realm of shadows. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish I didn't know that so well. Yeah, no, I think it's two things.

First, I think it's the normal course of a faithful Christian. Like, I want to drain it from it being that this makes you unique. Your struggles don't make you unique. They make you just like everyone else. It's really your blessings and your virtues that make you unique. But the second thing is just that the life you had when you said, I was waking up, it's not a thing, it's a person, right? So it's something that can be sought and begged and talked about. Just like there's a point in your marriage where you guys felt like it was a honeymoon, and the honeymoon period was over, and either you or your wife had to address it and be like, hey, this ain't working anymore.

What's happening? be like, hey, this ain't working anymore. What's happening? Because when we think that the spiritual life is a condition, or it's a mood, it's a disposition, we notice its effects. You were noticing the effects. I could sense people. I could do it. But all of those was what was flowing from you because of that relationship. And so some of this is just the father saying, listen, I know you want to get a lot done. I know you're doing really good. But like you maybe just moved your heart two beats away from me. And I want all of you because I'm giving you all of me because I really do love you. So I just read something in Space Salve that rocked my world.

I'd read it so many times. And Pope Benedict says, life is relationship. is relationship so that means to have life it means to be fundamentally in relationship with life himself and uh yeah to be fundamentally in relationship with life himself he says and he quotes saint paul that says for to me life is christ so like and christ lives 24 7 ad patrum right so the invitation just like i think we're just always we're so damn secular no matter what like ordained priest married man catholic or not we just always think it's like 90 maybe it's 90 god and then 10 other things in the ingredients to make life happen and uh it's always it's over and over again like

no it's all me and i'll give you everything else but it's over and over again, like, no, it's all me, and I'll give you everything else, but it's all me. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, because the fear is certainly the devil. So I think the natural condition of just going up and down is the father tutoring you to trust, to call out, to seek all the more. But the fear is the enemy saying, see, you've lost it. Look what you did. You're bad. It's all coming back. It was never real. It's never going to last. You can't get it again. Got to go back and see Bob shoots.

That's so much Ignatius's understanding of the enemy, that he reinterprets the past so that like God just seems like an idea, but not like a lived presence. And then he projects that insecurity onto the future. It's always going to be like this. This is what it is. And that's always the tactic of the enemy. Yeah. Thanks. I got in my car and drove towards Adoration this morning and I was just so angry, just angry, you know? And I just thought like, okay, heart, like what are you telling me here? You know, rather than like disciplining it or shaming it, just like what's going on?

And I just cried out to the Father. And you know that song by Evanescence, the one that says, wake me up inside? Yes. That song is so inspired. I sang that driving down. It's beautiful. Like how do you see into my eyes?

Like, open doors leading you down into my core where I've become so numb. I mean, it's the story of, like, salvation. Like, wake me up inside. Save me from the dark, calm light of the world, yeah? Yeah. So, I was able to just say, like, sit in adoration like a patient on an operating table and just saying, okay, like, I don't know what's happening, but I trust you. I trust that this is somehow part of it. Happiness, Father Ryan Mann.

We're talking about happiness. We've done a couple of episodes on happiness. Why don't we just kind of re, what do you say? Yeah, let's revisit just a little bit in case you've been you know you're one of the listeners you've been listening to the previous two episodes uh you know bottom line what aquinas is really doing is he got a firm definition of happiness although maybe for us in our modern minds it feels very abstract but he has a very clear definition and then he's busy going through all the things that aren't going to make us happy, or I should probably say in our modern language, won't fully satisfy us, or aren't our

end, is not where we're heading. And so, you know, happiness we tend to think of as a mood, you know, and Aquinas says a little bit more than that. He says happiness is a reality, we would call it God. And so it's something independent of our minds and wills and bodies. It's God. That's our happiness. And so the first thing happiness is, is a reality. It's real God. The second thing happiness is, is, is our enjoyment, participation, or tasting it. I think in one of our episodes so far, Matt, we came up with the distinction of the analogy of like food. Food is independent of my stomach, but I really can't enjoy the food until I'm eating it.

Same thing with happiness. Happiness is God in the first sense, so that's independent of me, but I really can't participate or come to know my own happiness unless I'm participating in the life of God. And so I need both. I need to know who and what he is, namely infinite good, beauty, truth, love, life, joy. And I need to be living the kind of life that's moving me closer and closer, drawing me, orienting me more and more towards wanting, seeking, and choosing that infinite good and nothing less. And so that's what brings us to our third installment here of some other traps that every one of us falls into. Indeed. One of the things I'd want to kind of recap too is when we understand what happiness is and what it consists of, we can see why we cannot be perfectly happy in this life. So even if you were the holiest person, you cannot be fully happy because you cannot fully have God, if you want, in the same way that you will in the beatific vision. Yeah, I think that's really important. That's so important. I think the promise of every magazine and every website and every mall is that like, look, this will make

you fully happy. I think I had this idea too that I've heard Jason Everett say, this is going to sound like a weird segue, but Cosm magazine right speaking of magazines and promise promising us happiness they make up with technique what they lack in intimacy right so because i don't have intimate union with this beloved this woman say or man whatever the case may be, I need 110 ways to get a better orgasm, right? So, my point is, I think like in the Christian life, I'm finding that happiness has to do with intimacy with the Father. And I see a trap that I fall into and I have to assume others do, that when we lack intimacy with the Father, we can be tempted if we remain Catholic to make up what we lack in intimacy with technique.

In other words, just tell me what I have to do. Like, okay, so how many rosaries again do I have to pray so that I can feel like I've done something? How many masses do I need to attend? Like how many scapulas or like what are the things I have to do? None of that means that these things are bad, just like, you know, sexually pleasing one's spouse. Obviously, that's a good thing and learning how to do that is a good thing. But if it's divorced from intimacy with the father, it won't work. And so, I think we can attain a great degree of happiness in this life and Aquinas says as much. And to the degree in which we can attain that happiness, it'll have to do with intimacy with Him. What say you?

You know, I mean, I think that's, I really like that analogy. There's a line, I think it's in one of the Psalms where it says like, their words spoke your praises, but their hearts were far from you. And I think that can happen a lot where we just externally say the right Catholic thing, but we know our hearts haven't tasted the goodness of God in a long time. And the good news is that God is laboring to love us always. So there's never been a moment in my life where God isn't wanting to move heaven and earth to bless me, to really care for me right now. And so even though my heart or someone's heart may be far from

him in this moment, you may think that like happiness is trite, or you may be getting a little cynical and bitter about the very notion of flourishing and happiness. It's true that God wants you to flourish in this life more than you do, so that you can be with him fully alive and flourishing with him forever in heaven. And so this world is both a veil of tears. It's very hard, very painful. We take a lot of hits, oftentimes self-induced. It's also true that this is also the theater of mercy and beauty and goodness, and we get glimpses and real tastings of what it's going to be like for us in the hope of eternity. And like even that Cosmo magazine, the reason they do this is, the reason they make money is

they think that these techniques are going to make you happy and happiness sells because we're all made for happiness. Yeah, indeed. Well, let's see if we can jump into this. Obviously, we're just skimming the surface here, listeners. If you want to read it for yourself, it's quite, it's quite, it's easier to digest than some of his metaphysical type articles. But if you go to the first part of the second part of the Summa Theologiae question two, he has eight articles here on what cannot bring us happiness. And we've already touched on wealth, honor, fame, glory. Today, we're going to touch upon, just touch upon power, good of the body, pleasure. And I don't want us to feel limited to, I don't want us to feel constricted fame glory today we're going to touch upon just touch upon power good of the body pleasure and i don't want us to feel limited to i don't want us to feel constricted by these i want us to go

where we feel led to go um but i'm actually writing a book right now on happiness and thomas aquinas for ignatius press that should come out next year i'm going to delve into these topics a lot a lot more so it'll be fun um all right do i get like a do i get any royalties for being like a test guinea pig or anything? Sure. If you knew how little the royalties you get from running books are, you would not envy me. No one would. Anyway. Okay.

Let's talk about power. So maybe we can just talk about that now. Because I said earlier when we did our episode on money, like, yeah, Aquinas argues why money can't make us happy. And he's right. But I think the reason we want money is so that we can have control, which is another word for power, right? I want to have control over my circumstances. I know that like life can throw a curveball at me, you know, and we can all be tempted to fall into this constant fear of I'm not doing enough. I'm not putting enough money away for my 401k or whatever. Have I even looked at signing an account for my kids? Is that what people do now? And there's just this overwhelming fear that I have to stay on top of life or else it'll all fall apart like a deck of cards. It'll fall down. So I need power. So I need money. But here Aquinas is arguing for why power cannot make us happy. Yeah. You know what? I don't know if anyone watches the TV show suits on USA. It's a, I mean, it's certainly not like a morally upright show in many ways, but

it really shows like just power. It's a bunch of lawyers in New York city and it's all about power, power suits, power ties, power, legal moves. I mean, it's really just showing like a battling of wit and power. And the goal is to stay in power. And the way they almost win all their cases is by using someone's weakness against them. Why do we like watching those kind of shows? I think the outfits are amazing. I only wear clerics. So like if I could have a sweet suit, it'd be awesome. Living vicariously through that.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. But you know, I don't know why. I think it's in some ways, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. But I don't know why. I think it's in some ways I like the show because it really does capture this power thing. I think we are so afraid of weakness and vulnerability. And in our culture, we have no mercy. And so everyone is looking to step on you to get ahead. And so the notion where I could be all powerful, it could never get hurt. I mean, think about all the superhero movies. It's all about somehow in some way having a superhuman power where I don't have to be human. I don't have to have weakness and vulnerabilities and dependencies. And that's why this question is so important is if running from that part of me is going to make me happy, then great. Let me seek my fulfillment, my flourishing in being all-powerful so I can't get hurt, so there's no vulnerability, right? But actually, the best answer I think Aquinas gives is in his reply to objection one. He just talks about how it would seem that power

would be right because all creatures want to be like the creator. They're moving towards being like God and God's all powerful. But this is what he says. He goes, God's power is his goodness. Hence he cannot use his power otherwise than well, but it is not so with men. Consequently, it is not enough for man's happiness that he become like God in power, unless he become like him in goodness also. This is why Galadriel and Gandalf, you know, do not take the ring. And it's why Strider doesn't too. It's like, I would mean it for good, but I wouldn't be able to. So you can't empower and be miserable like Sauron is.

Exactly. Or you can think of like so many, you know, dictators or, you know, people throughout the world in politics, like they want to get at the top and they promise all these good things. But once they get the power, they wield it for all sorts of corruption. Yeah. Like part of me wants to say to like Elizabeth Warren and who was Obama's vice president? What's his name again? Biden. Biden? Yeah. I want to say to them, just like, go and rest. Just go and like sit and enjoy your grandkids and just, but it's, I mean, I don't want to speak for them. This isn't me making a judgment on their heart because I don't know who they are. But you have to think that some of that is just this lust after power. Like once you have it, you can't let it go. Oh, sure.

I love this quote from Boethius. So in the Sed Contra, he says, happiness is the perfect good, but power is most imperfect. And then whenever he quotes Boethius, I love Boethius. He's like Augustine. He speaks right to the heart. He says, the power of man cannot relieve the gnawings of care, nor can it avoid the thorny path of anxiety. think you a man is powerful who is surrounded by attendance whom he inspires with fear indeed but whom he fears still more i don't understand that last line do you well yeah i think because when you're in power and you have these attendants you're always worried are they trying to take you off the throne gotcha yeah there's more there's more to lose right right so that's and that's a tough thing is i mean anyone who's had power uh i mean anytime anyone's ever felt like they're in charge of a group, even just something small, maybe at your parish you were entrusted with leading a group or something like that, a youth ministry group or young adult group, it's harder and harder to share yourself with the people you're entrusted with. Yeah. And so it can be very tough.

And so this is what Aquinas is saying. Notice how he says it's not like power is evil either, though. It's not like it should be shunned or rejected. It's just that just because you have power doesn't mean then you're flourishing, because that power you have over people can be used for good or ill. It could be for your destruction. And so that's why he's saying, if you want that power, it's got to be wedded to also pursuing the goodness of God. So, you know, we might say that you also have to have love. And so, the person who really is at the top is willing to be at the bottom. And now look at Jesus, you know, washing the feet of the disciples. He was all-powerful and He revealed

it by service, by humble love. How do we apply this to our lives then? Because all of us have power to some degree or another. It's tempting to look at other people or many other people who have much more power than us and therefore excuse ourselves. But, you know, the person with 20 Twitter followers can be just as lustful after power as the man with 100,000. Or the man with, you know, 100 bucks can be just as greedy as someone with whatever. So, how do we actually apply this to our lives? Because I think many of us out there are like, well, I'm not powerful. But we do have a realm of power. What do we do to avoid thinking power can make us happy? Yeah, I think the first thing is to recognize that power alone doesn't satisfy the heart. Just because you're in charge of people doesn't mean all of a sudden

now you're peaceful and grateful and kind and compassionate and surrounded by friends and love and joy. I mean, we just have to look around to see that being the case. And there's enough evidence to show that. So I think the first thing is to drain the enticement of power. And then I think the second move is to say that the goal is not to be a doormat. You don't want people to walk over you. He calls it servitude. Aquinas calls it, in reply three, servitude is bad. When you're a slave, you have to do what other people are telling you no matter what, and that may be evil as well. But the goal is to be good, to, you might want to say, have a clear conscience, to be the kind of man or woman who follows the promptings of God in your life and does so with generosity and kindness, power should be wielded for the sake of truth and

goodness and love. So if I have power over people, I should be exercising that in a way that it's helping others flourish as well. And in doing that, I find my flourishment and I find greater happiness. And so, power is a means to bless, not a means to gain. Okay. Well, let's look at whether man's happiness consists in any bodily good. I love the kind of first answer. He gives two reasons as to why this isn't the case. Let me read the first one. He says, If a thing be ordained to another as to its end, the last end cannot consist in the preservation of its being. Hence, a captain does not intend as a last end the preservation of the ship entrusted to him,

since a ship is ordained to something else as its end, that is, navigation. Now, just as a ship is entrusted to the captain that he may steer its course, so a man is given over to his will and reason. According to Sirach 15, 14, God made man from the beginning and left him in the hand of his own counsel. Now, it's evident that man is ordained to something as to his end, since man is not the supreme good. Therefore, the last end of man's reason and will cannot be the preservation of man's being. therefore the last end of man's reason and will cannot be the preservation of man's being.

That's cool. I don't know. The first thing I thought of was when I think of bodily good, I guess I think of people who are nuts about working out, you know, and are constantly working out. And I love to work out and, you know, I go to CrossFit and I try to go three times a week and I find that I'm happier when I go. I'm clearer. I'm less agitated. I feel better. I feel more awake. But, you know, I think we've all seen examples online where we suspect that this is maybe going too far. Like that would just be one example. Obviously, working out, we don't work out for the sake of working out.

And we don't have bodily good or seek to attain bodily good for the sake of bodily good. Right, right. Yeah, I think that's, I thought of the same thing, actually, same example of people who are obsessed with working out. Or sometimes you can get people who are so obsessed with their diet. And it doesn't mean like you have dietary restrictions, okay, fine. But there is something about Jesus in the gospel where he says, eat what's put before you. Now, it's one thing if you're allergic or something like that, but when you become so vigilant or so minuscule about every little thing, oh, well, what's in this? What'd you make this with? Well, I only do natural. Well, okay, how

nice. Some of us don't have the money or an ability to do that. Some people are working two or three jobs and they don't have the time to even do something like that, you know? So we have to just be this overly concern about the bodily life, I think is what we might want to call it as. And yeah, and I love what he says is, therefore the last end of man's reason and will cannot be the preservation of man's being. Like self-preservation cannot be the end, right? Because first off, it doesn't work. We're all going to die. So no matter how much you're trying to build up and protect and take care of your body, just naturally, it's going to decay, break down and wither on you.

Yeah, if we think of it like a science kind of, what do you say, science genre of movies. Yeah, science or sci-fi or something like that. Yeah, science fiction, so the genre of like movies yeah yeah science sci-fi or something yeah science fiction so that kind of like even if we can imagine a day and age where we take a pill once a day and it reverses the aging process it's like does anyone seriously think that that would make everybody happy like we would we would all just be like healthy and pissed off still it's not like that alone is going to make us happy. Well, I think that's a great point. Pope Benedict talks about this in Space Salvation. He raises the question, he's like, on one sense, we don't want to die. But in another sense,

imagining being alive forever in this world seems hellish. It does. So several things would have to change for that to really mean flourishing or happiness or fulfillment for me. Everyone in the world would have to all of a sudden be united around truth and goodness. There's all sorts of things that have to change. So just being healthy in and of itself in the bodily realm is a means so that you can operate on the spiritual realm, right? The reason and the will, the intellect and the will, which is what he's getting at here is that we're created, yes, we have bodily functions, but we also have spiritual functions. And it's those functions that really constitute our happiness. And that's what he's

saying is like, one is for the sake of the other. Yeah. All right. That's, oh, here's a question for you. Let's get a little vulnerable. You can go as vulnerable as you want here. You and I are about the same age. I just turned 36 yesterday. How old are you? Hey, I'm 36 as well. Yeah. Look at us. So, like, I imagine you're experiencing kind of what I'm experiencing. Like, my body's getting older. I'm noticing stuff change. Like, I don't know about you, but I'm noticing, like, weird back hair for the first time in my life. How do you notice hair on your back? Well, what?

How do you notice your hair? Well, it's right by, it's under my neck. Like if I rub my hand below my neck, I'm starting to feel like hair. Now, I don't want to question my body. I want to assume that it knows what it's doing, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why it thinks it needs to produce more hair to, you know, weather whatever's about to happen to me, you know and and i've got a bit of a i've got a bit of a belly you know like um and this is something for a while i've been really uh kind of embarrassed about honestly like i'll take photos and i will suck my gut in when i when i take a photo and i was with um some friends last night a couple of ladies and i asked them like is not having makeup does that make you feel like how i feel if i was just to walk around like

i'm not saying i'm fat but you know letting my belly out did i talk about this last time we spoke you spoke you had your hints yeah yeah you uh you you bring out this vulnerability in me father that's why um but yeah like so but i'm not sure like how are you dealing with that are you dealing with similar things uh you know not being as attractive as you once were like you and i both have the receding hairline thing happening. Is that something you're wrestling with or have wrestled with? Or are you just a lot humbler than me? I'm not more humble. I think part of it is just like, I don't know. I don't have an earthly

spouse that I'm trying to look good for. There's some part of what you should try to look good for your wife. You should want her to stay attractive to you. And hopefully over time, what she's attracted to is the qualities of your heart and your spiritual dispositions. But you are married to – you are incarnate. You are embodied for each other. And so there should be some sense of wanting to be pleasing to the eyes of your beloved. I think there's something good there. But like, you know, it's not like I'm like, man, I hope the old lady praying the rosary at morning mass thinks that, man, he's got – he's really took care of himself.

I mean that just doesn't – it's just not the same thing. But there is this. I mean, that just doesn't, it's just not the same thing. Yeah. There is this, I would say there is, this is I, um, like I just don't work out. I just, it's a, it's a habit. I don't, it's a bad habit. I just don't. It's a habit I've worked up to. And now I'm proud to say. Systematically gotten rid of all working out in my life.

And, uh, you know, and, and sometimes like, uh, like I was playing volleyball with my high school youth group a couple of weeks ago. And, uh, two weeks later now, my wrist and arm still hurt. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like I was playing volleyball with my high school youth group a couple weeks ago, and two weeks later now, my wrist and arm still hurt. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, that never happened before. But isn't there a sense where you want women to notice you? Like, I get that you don't have a wife. What's it like being a priest where you want a woman to notice you?

Like, surely that doesn't disappear when you become a priest. Like, you would like someone to flirt with you. What I mean in a woman's life, if I was seeking or wanting or drawn to, I want to be attractive to her, it would undermine everything that I'm ordained to be in this world. But we can't control our wants is what I'm saying. Like I get intellectually you wouldn't want that to happen. But just as a man, don't you just want to be – I mean, yeah, I know this is weird. No, this is good. These are good questions because I think that – I mean it does have to do with happiness too.

I guess there's part of it. Yeah, I mean, you want to be you. I guess I always do enjoy. I'm trying to think. I guess I do. It is enjoyable when you can tell you were a gift in a woman's life in a different way than when I'm a gift in a man's life, you know. But I guess I just I don't even I'm just totally unaware of being attractive, like physically attractive. That really doesn't dawn on me. It's nice, like, if someone says, oh, hey, you know, hey, father, looks like you're working out or something like that. I'm always like, well, I'm not, so that's an illusion. But if a woman hit on me in an airplane, that would feel, and a woman, if an attractive woman, if I could tell she was attracted to me sexually, my whole heart would explode in butterflies and I would run away. But I would feel good. How could, yeah, like who wouldn't, who wouldn't feel good about that? Now, I'm not saying like by God's, and this has actually happened to me once in my life before I was on an airplane with someone who started flirting with me in a really, really obvious way.

And I started showing her photos of my family, you know, and then I just like, I just stopped talking to her. I got, I got just left. But yeah, like, I think there's a part of us. We want to be noticed, recognized, seen as attractive, wanted sexually. I mean, am I, maybe I'm just so far down on the spiritual totem pole that I experienced these things, but all of my listeners and you were like, nah, dude, but I don't think so. I would highly doubt that you're like the only one out there feeling these things. But I would say like, I guess for me, like, you know, I would much rather, or my heart would be way more moved to know that, to literally to know that a woman was like, he's so close. Like when I'm with him, I feel very close to God. Or that like, when he talks to me, I just feel like the mercy of Jesus.

That would stir my heart way more than if they were like, I think you're really good looking. I'd be like, okay, well, great. I think I'm saying, yeah, maybe I'm saying that too, because I think my real self would be stirred to praise the Father. And I think it might be my sense of insecurity that would just be stimulating. Now, did you ever think when you were in high school, before you met your wife, like when you were in high school and college,

did you see yourself as a good-looking guy? No, no. I was convinced I was ugly my whole childhood. I had freckles. I was skinny. I didn't think anyone would ever pay me attention. So when that started to happen, it was like, ooh, baby.

It was like oil on wounds. I've never put oil on wounds, but I hear that's a thing to do in the Bible. Well, yeah, no, and I think like this is, you know, like the bodily good thing that Aquinas is talking about is like if that's where we seek our flourishing and fulfillment, I think another example we have is like the six-year-old guy who's constantly like working out, like the six-year-old, seven-year-old guy always doing pushups nonstop and having people feel his biceps or the woman who's like getting things tucked and nipped and enlarged and all these things. Cause like you want the body to stay young, but you know, it's, yeah, it's, it's like a, it's like a rat race. It's the conveyor belts going over the edge

eventually, no matter how much you want to delay it. it yeah um yeah i don't know i guess i i don't i don't resonate with you and i normally do in that regard that's okay i appreciate you not pretending to just to help me not be embarrassed i'm just going to sit in my embarrassment no i'm not i think i think one of the gifts that i have is i'm able to articulate honestly how i feel and people resonate with that. So I know that there's a significant chunk of our audience who don't resonate with that. So I would just ask that they be gentle with my vulnerability. But there's going to be a ton of people who are like, shit, yes, that is me.

And I'm not proud of it, but that's where I'm at. But I'll tell you, as a seminarian, I thought that way more. I'm just remembering if I got dressed in a suit and tie for an event, like a wedding, I did want to be noticed. I did want to be seen as attractive. There's something about a Roman collar that for me, I know

it's weird, but it's just like not even for them, it surrenders in me. There's no way I can be like, how do I look sexy in this Roman collar? See how there's no way I can be like, all right, do I look, how do I look sexy in this Roman collar, huh? See how thick it is? I can barely keep my head from bending. Maybe if I do one of those ones where it snaps in the back, I'll look really good. And it just doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't operate this way because on my day off, if I go out to like a nice

dinner with friends or my mom and I'm just in more, and I'm dressed in secular clothes, there is a greater temptation to say, how am I looking? What will I look like for people than there is when I put my Roman collar on? All right. Well, let's move on to article six before I share even more and get even more embarrassed. Whether man's happiness consists in pleasure. We want pleasure. Oh, baby, however it comes, we want it and we want it forever, which think is why we want power so these all kind of tie together right like i want money so i can have power so that i can have constant pleasure and the pleasure can't be taken away because i have the power to stop it and i have the power to stop it being taken away because i have the money to prevent it you know

yeah no it's yeah i think in many ways i think this is like the main article it's article six for anyone why don't we spend some time on it then? I just think it's the main one because I think, like you said, everyone wants pleasure. And he makes an interesting distinction here. And I believe John Paul II uses some of this reasoning when he writes Love and Responsibility. So it's pretty interesting. I love this quote from Boethius in the said quote. That's the one I was going to quote. Yeah, exactly. Go ahead and read it anyone that chooses to look back on his past excesses will perceive that pleasure had a sad ending and if they can render a man happy there is no reason

why we should not say that the very beasts are happy too yeah that's powerful yeah and his point is the beasts are not happy they are not happy like being like you know just just not having desires doesn't make me happy like if i'm in a coma that doesn't make me happy right yeah right you know and i just uh there's a real a good spiritual thing here that boethius is suggesting is anyone that chooses to look back on his past excesses will perceive that pleasure has had a sad ending, i.e. look on your past excesses. You know, I know, Matt, you've helped a lot of men in recovery, but one of the greatest things to do to help people overcome sin is look on your past sins. Don't ignore them. Don't run away from them. Look at them with a lot of compassion and openness to what can you learn from this?

What can you learn about yourself? What can you learn about God, reality, other people? Like notice things. So like when you look on your past excesses, so let's just use drinking. It's a great example, right? Man, when I had that third scotch, it ended with a terrible hangover. Or I said some things i really regret it or i did things i shouldn't have done yeah but like all right look back on that what

was going on look back on your past notice that that's a conveyor belt meaning like it's always going to lead there is a cause and effect it's not like well i don't know how i got hung over well no there's a clear reason why and there was a reason why you had that third or fourth scotch or third or fourth or fifth beer or fifth or sixth martini whatever there's a reason why you had that third or fourth scotch or fourth or fifth beer or fifth or sixth martini, whatever. There's a reason why you did it on that day in that group when you knew I'm usually two and I should stop. So there's just a great spiritual lesson there. If we really want to be happy, we have to reflect. Experience is the best teacher.

And a lot of wisdom is in there if you take time to reflect on those things. and it's it's a lot of wisdom is in there if you take time to reflect on those things but yeah you know speaking of beasts um there is there is something interesting here that like beasts don't eat too much and get obese like or starve themselves and become anorexic yeah like that that is a good point like do you know of a animal that is incapable of regulating its body weight because they're so gluttonous? I don't. If they're big, they're supposed to be big. So, my point is we have a hunger for the eternal, for the divine, for the absolute, for God.

And we seek to fulfill that hunger in mutable goods. And this is why we become alcoholics. And this is why we become lustful and adulterous. And yeah, we overeat. We binge on Netflix. It's like the animals don't have a desire for the infinite. And so once they feed, they don't keep feeding. Once they drink, they don't keep drinking.

Once they've had sex, if all of their bodily needs are met, they go to sleep. I've heard that when our bodily needs are met, as men and women, we ask questions. This is what Aristotle talks about in the metaphysics, that all men desire to know, and that one of the things that's necessary to a life of philosophy is a peaceful life where our needs are met. You can't do philosophy when you're running away from things that are trying to kill you. You can only do it when our needs are met. You can't do philosophy when you're running away from things that are trying to kill you. You can only do it when your needs are met and you can sit and contemplate the world. So, it says a lot about us as men and women that our bodily appetites are disordered in a way that the beasts do not have disordered appetites.

in a way that the beasts do not have disordered appetites. Right, right, right. That's great insight. I like that a lot. You know, with centripetal beasts and the bodily appetites and pleasure, it's important to recognize that, once again, Aquinas isn't saying pleasure is evil. We're not becoming people who reject pleasure all the time. One of the things he

pushes in this section is that the object that is causing the pleasure is what we need to reflect on because the pleasure is really happening in me, right? If I have a great drink or a great meal, I'm experiencing the pleasure. That's happening in me. But the object that's giving it, as he's saying, is that object infinite good because that's what we're really looking for, is that object infinite truth, infinite beauty. And the analogy I want to join there with St. John Paul II is when he talks about the sexuality is that the delight of a woman's body is what catches our senses first. But that's not love. That's the raw material, he calls it, of love, right? It catches our attention, and we now notice a person. But me intending to know the person is what will equal love or not.

If I stay at the level of the senses, the delight of the attraction, I'm not yet at the level of the person, which means I'm not yet at the level of intimate communion. And I think that's similar to what he's saying here, is when it comes to happiness, all sorts of things can give us pleasure. Pleasurable to the eyes, to the ears, to the touch, to the taste, to the smells. Everything can be so pleasurable. But is the reality that's causing this pleasure, is it the infinite one? Is it the one that has endless love, endless goodness, endless beauty? And if it's not, we need to recognize the pleasure itself is not where our flourishing and fulfillment is going to happen. And so we may need to then do the opposite of pleasure. We may intentionally seek penance or

fasting to reorder ourselves to the infinite one, not because the pleasure is bad, but because it's less than what we deeply truly want and what we're invited towards, which is the infinite one. And so the spiritual practices of penance and fasting is not because we hate our bodies or we hate pleasure. It's so important that that's not why we're doing it. Because some people need to learn how to enjoy pleasurable things. But the reason we're doing this because this one thing or pleasure itself is such a binding, blinding effect on me. I need to intentionally put myself in a school of choosing that which is unpleasurable to find freedom to pursue the infinite. Yeah, great points. Should we read through some of the respondio, or is there something in particular you thought worth reading?

Why don't you just, do you have something that sticks out to you? Well, I like the – It's all golden. I know. It's really, really – I think for the sake of time, we just tell everyone, read Article 6 if you can. I know everyone, you're like, I'm driving. What do you mean? But I'm telling you, it's just really, really cool.

Why don't we read the first objection and the response to that? He says, it would seem that man's happiness consists in pleasure, for since happiness is the last end, it is not desired for something else, but other things for it. But this answers to pleasure more than to anything else, for it's absurd to ask anyone what is his motive in wishing to be pleased. Therefore, happiness consists principally in pleasure and delight. As always, let's just pause and give Aquinas a high five for knowing how to articulate his, maybe opponents too strong of a word, but his interlockers. Thank you, interlockers. That's brilliant. No one's like, Interlocutors.

Thank you. Interlocutors. That's brilliant. No one's like, I want to be happy. Why? Just because. You've hit bedrock with the question of – the shovel of a stupid question at this point. I just want to.

Yeah. Well, I just – I like the pleasure of a cheesecake. Yeah, that's why. And so it's like – yeah. So it's like you want money for something else. You want power for something else. But pleasure, you just want pleasure for the sake of pleasure. That seems to make sense. Here's his response, and then I'll have you comment on it. It comes to the same, says Aquinas, whether we desire good or desire delight, which is nothing else than the appetites

rest in good. Thus, it is owing to the same natural force that a weighty body is born downward and that it rests there. Consequently, just as good is desired for itself, so delight is desired for itself and not for anything else. If the preposition for denotes the final cause, but if it denotes the formal or rather the motive cause, thus delight is desirable for something else, that is, for the good, which is the object of that delight, and consequently is its principle and gives it its form. For the reason that delight is desired is that it is rest in the thing desired. Say that one more time. For the reason that delight is desired is that it is rest in the thing desired. That's pretty dense stuff. Yeah. No, this is why sometimes I give high props to anyone listening to these podcasts,

because I think hearing these things are hard. I had a guy write to me and tell me he nearly got hit by a car because he was riding in France and he was listening to the show and he was concentrating. He drove out into traffic, rode out into traffic. Yeah. So if anyone's driving on a bike right now, be careful. Be careful. Yeah. So this is kind of a little bit of what I was saying here in the rejection. One is that like, so when he gives us a natural, uh, this analogy, I, I quite as an analogy, I think are very helpful, but it is owing to the same natural force that a weighty body is born down and rest there. So we know, imagine you have a 50 pound weight and you let it go, it goes down and it stays down by it's a natural

thing. The very thing of itself tends towards being down and staying down. Consequently, just as good is desired for itself. Meaning what we see and perceive as good, we are drawn towards it. Just like the weighty thing is drawn towards the bottom. All right? So delighting in that good thing that we're drawn towards, resting in it, tasting it, experiencing it, being with it, he says that absolutely is correct. If that thing is the final cause, meaning if that thing is the infinite good, but if it's not the infinite good, then taking delight in it actually won't satisfy because we're going to want more and bigger and different and change. And so we see this in our daily lives, don't we? Like you were just giving the example.

We think we both were drinking since it's pints with Aquinas. We were drinking, right? And so, man, if one good beer is good, isn't seven going to be great? Well, no, that doesn't, that's not going to be. And so that's what he's trying to say. There's, we want to rest in the good. And he says, absolutely resting, delighting, enjoying the good that we see is perfect. If that good be the infinite good, the final cause, but if it's something less, it won't satisfy and we'll get restless pretty quickly. Yeah, spot on. So that's why pleasure in and of itself,

delight in and of itself is not what we're looking for. This is why when we seek happiness for its own sake, we don't end up happy. If I'm like, I just want to be happy. I did this last night. I've been eating really well lately, but last night i went on a bit of a bender i um i was drinking some mescal which is this new thing i'm into it's like tequila yeah i'm very big into it i love it oh my gosh it's incredible i've just discovered this tequila oh my god now i guess tequila is a region in mexico and that's what makes that's what's like champagne i guess but yeah it's cheap it's like it's it tastes like single malt scotch it really does it's amazing anyway the point is I had a glass of that. I didn't overdrink, but then I just started kind of like eating just junk. And it was, yeah, it was like I was looking

for delight. And it's almost like whenever we try to do that just for the sake of feeling satiated, if we're not looking to God for that, it doesn't work. We all experience it. There's a deficiency in return. I have one drink, I feel good. I have two, I feel good, but not as good as I did when I had the one drink. You have the third drink, you're like, okay, what am I doing? What am I looking for? No, absolutely. And I think this is just one of the things of the effects of original sin is we all know that drinking isn't going to help me flourish, right? That's what Aquinas means by happiness, is this flourishing. We all know that having several drinks isn't going to help me flourish, right? That's what Aquinas means by happiness, is this flourishing. We all know that having several drinks isn't going to help me flourish. And yet we're like, eh, I don't care. You get to a point where you're like, eh, I tried. I'm tired. It's the end of the day.

And this is why I really like the church in her evening prayer and night prayer is always inviting us to be vigilant about the devil in the nighttime and begin days. So we begin the days remembering praise, the evening time to remember mercy and the devil, largely because we know that's when we're most attacked. We're tired, our energies are depleted, the ability to choose what is best is compromised. And so a lot of people who are working on healing have a lot of very strict nighttime rituals, not because they want to be rigid, but because they know the nighttime, they're most vulnerable to choosing what is less. And then you wake up and you're like, yeah, oh gosh, I'm dehydrated. And I'm full of regret. And obviously, God the Father does not want that for us. So he gives us really clear commands to be vigilant at night, not because he wants some sort of arbitrary commands, but because he wants us to wake up

intact, joyful, and ready to serve him for another day. And he wants his sons and daughters to be happy, alive. Yeah. Well, okay. So over the course of these three episodes, we've addressed happiness in general, whether happiness consists in wealth, honor, fame, three episodes, we've addressed happiness in general, whether happiness consists in wealth, honor, fame, and glory, whether it consists in power, goods of the body, pleasure. The last two are interesting, and I'm not sure if you have much to say on them or if you have a lot. Do they consist in the goods of the soul or any created good? Now, that number seven is interesting because I think people would say, well, yeah, that's where they reside, in the soul. Number seven is interesting because I think people would say, well, yeah, that's where they reside, in the soul.

Of course, we get that Aquinas would say no to pleasure, no to money, no to power. But like goods of the soul, I mean, isn't that where they consist? Anything strike you in that article? Yeah, he just makes two good points, I find, is that one is the soul itself cannot be its own last end because the soul is a potential. I have a potential to know. I have a potential to be virtuous. So because it's in potency, in and of itself, it can't be its end. It has to be conformed to something to reach its end. So something other than the soul needs to be a part of it for it to reach its end. So in and of itself, it can't be happiness. And he also then says, this is at the very last sentence of his response, of his answerings, he said, consequently, we must say that happiness is something belonging to the soul, but that which

constitutes happiness is something outside the soul. So what he's saying is that, yes, it's true that we need an intellect and will to participate in this thing called happiness, namely God, but that which constitutes, defines, and makes happen happiness is outside the soul. So God is independent of my mind and will. However, I need my mind and will to participate in God. And so the soul is, it participates in the soul, but the soul in and of itself is not my happiness. Yeah, this is kind of similar to what he said about the body. I mean, we don't take care of the body for the sake of the body, and we don't take care of the soul for the sake of the soul. We love the soul not for the soul's sake, but for God's. Right.

The only difference being it's like that ladder, right? The body we have in tandem with the animals, our spiritual nature we have in tandem with the angels so we're moving up the ladder it's not the body it's not found in the soul it moves up and then and the last thing like you said any created goods i love it so i was like i feel like you could have just done this one like i feel like you could have just done this one and saved myself a lot of time right and uh yeah what what does he write there? He writes... Yeah, read the respondio. That's not too long.

Yeah, where is it? I can't, my paper's lost. Okay. I answer that it is impossible for any created good to constitute man's happiness. So we know where he stands. For happiness is the perfect good which lulls the appetite altogether,

else it would not be the last end if something yet remains to be desired. Now the object of the will, i.e., of man's appetite, is the universal good. We could say infinite good, limitless good. Just as the object of the intellect is the universal true. Hence, it is evident that not can l low man's will save the universal good. This is to be found not in any creature, but in God alone, because every creature has goodness by participation, wherefore God alone can satisfy the will of man. According to the words of Psalm 102, verse 5, who saith thy desire with good things.

Therefore, God alone constitutes man's happiness. I think the line that you could probably all pray on, because I'm probably going to this afternoon, is, for happiness is the perfect good which lulls the appetite altogether, else it would not be the last end, if something yet remained to be desired. And that word lull is defined here. I just looked it up so I could get the exact definition. To cause, to sleep, or to rest. And so, this idea that happiness, that is God, like causes rest to the appetite altogether. It's not like we encounter God and then still desire Cheetos or sex or hot air balloon rides. Everything is at rest, the whole appetite. He is, as Ralph Martin says in

the title of his book, the fulfillment of all desire. Yeah, and I think that we could probably do a lot of reflecting on times where you had a specific desire and it was met in a surprisingly satisfying way. Like I always say that heaven sounds like when you have a can of Coke, because you're in Atlanta, we'll say Coke, can of Coke in the summertime and you're drinking, you go, ah, like that sound is like just that satisfaction. And, you know, to spend time reflecting on that because most of our day is spent seeking, restless, pursuing. And so it's also just as like a little spiritual note for us is when you take your 20 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, holy hours, whenever you're praying and you're reading with scripture or something and you are led to rest somewhere. Please, for the love of Jesus Christ, rest. Don't keep trying to figure out what will this mean? How will I give a talk on this? What are

the implications of this? Who should I talk to about this? What else do I need to read? This reminds me of this quote. If you're reading, like when we're doing this happens to be this coming Sunday's Gospels, Martha and Mary in the Roman church. And you reading, and it just says, Jesus visited a village and a woman named Martha welcomed him. If for some reason, the idea of welcoming him just leads you to rest, you're just moved to interior rest, stay there. You don't have to analyze or figure it out. The Lord is doing something, primarily teaching you to be the kind of creature that can rest in his word.

And over time, you'll be the kind of man or woman who can just say the holy name of Jesus and be fixated on all of his promises, protection, and care. And you won't need a lot of happenings, but like the saints, you'll be able to abide in him. If you pray a rosary, the goal is not all five mysteries. The goal is a means to contemplate God. If one of the mysteries captures your attention, your imagination, or your heart, stay there and drink in everything that is being done to you. So that when you then return back to the rosary,

you are more peaceful and more ordered. And this is how God creates us to be the creatures everything that is being done to you, so that when you then return back to the rosary, you are more peaceful and more ordered. And this is how God creates us to be the creatures that seek happiness, not in delusions or deceptions, but in truth in himself. Amen. Well put. As we wrap up this three-part series, Father, is there any final words concerning the listener who desires to be happy, struggling with things, maybe, yeah, any final words? I just want to say, like, you are really worthy of happiness. Like, no father's heart would want his son or daughter to be like, meh. Like, you really do matter. You really are, you're worthy, you're capable of it. And like Jesus, the popes, saints, the whole church believes in your capacity to experience it reasonably now and then fulfilling it in heaven.

So that's about it. That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Father, for being with us for these three episodes. This is going to be massively enriching for folks. Hey, pints with Aquinas world. I love it. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I hope that these three episodes have been a tremendous blessing to you and to your walk with Christ. I do want to ask you if you like Pints with Aquinas and the Matt

Fradd Show that you start supporting me at patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, or if you don't like Patreon, pintswithaquinas.com slash donate. This really helps us grow what we're doing here. So we have like about seven people that are doing all sorts of things to make sure the Matt Fradd show and Pints with Aquinas run smoothly. And the reason we can do all of this work is because awesome people are supporting at a relatively small amount monthly. So if you go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, you could start giving a dollar a month or ten dollars a month or more if you wanted to and when you do that you would get free gifts shipped to your house access to free audio all sorts of content like my sister just did a study album a music of study album that's only available to your patrons i did a interview recently with michael knowles from the

daily wire about capitalism stuff which i know very little about which he you can access that right away. There's a ton of stuff you can access. But I think the number one reason I think people want to support me and us, the work that we're doing, is they agree with it, that they're glad it's there, that it's actually blessing their relationship with Christ and with their friends. So if that's you, go to patreon.com slash mattfradd. You would really be blessing me if you started supporting just any dollar amount per month so that we can keep doing this great work thanks a lot too many grains of salt and juice best we be frauds or worse accused Hollow me to deepen in you

Whose wolves am I feeding myself to? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you, to carry you, to carry you, to carry you. There were birds in your tears Falling from the sky

Into a dry riverbed That began to flow down to A cross town high up above the water And maple trees surrounded It leaves caught flame With golden embers.