Pints With Aquinas - 185: A Fireside Chat With Fr. Gregory Pine

Episode Date: December 23, 2019

Today I sit down W/ Fr. Gregory Pine to discuss ... well ... him. Fr. Gregory Pine. The Man, The Myth, The Legend! So... SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform  

G'day, g'day, g'day. Welcome to Pints with a quiet nurse. Sorry, stop that. My name is Matt Fradd and today I'm joined around the bar table by Father Gregory Pine. And what are we going to discuss today? Well, I just thought it would be cool if him and I sat down, had a drink, and just discussed his life. I want to learn more about Father Gregory, the man, the myth, the legend, how he started taking his faith seriously, how he became in contact with the Dominicans, why he decided to be a priest, what it was like going through seminary, what it's like being a priest now. This was just a casual chat between two friends about Father Gregory Pine's journey. And I think you're going to get a lot out of it. Here's the

show. Hello, Father Gregory. I don't know that I can respond in the same cadence. Hello. You could have tried. I could have. What are you drinking? I can expose myself to ridicule and embarrassment i'm not nearly as brave as you you get over it after a while the criticism yeah it doesn't matter my my insecurities are flaring up here's my theory on on this and i haven't really kind of crystallized this very well yet, but if you're going to be you

with all of your warts and idiosyncrasies and things, you'll naturally turn some people off. That's true. But if you seek to attract everybody, you'll end up coming across like a sycophant. What does that word mean?

Exactly what you're describing right now. I think I learned it in a Dickens novel. I freaking love that word. Sycophant. What does that word mean? Exactly what you're describing right now. I think I learned it in a Dickens novel. I freaking love that word. Sycophant. Do you know what it means? I don't know what it means. Basically, it's somebody who's a slave to the opinions of others. Well, yeah.

What I was going to say is kind of like a hotel advertisement or a grocery store advertisement. I mean, the point of these advertisements is literally to appeal to everybody without in any way offending anybody. And so it's just sort of trite, you know? Yeah. Milk toast. Yeah. So it just has to be okay. You've got to be decidedly yourself.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, you be you, really. Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead. Well, there you go. This is the part of the show then when I sing, hello, Matt Fred. How is things going at the Thomistic Institute and especially

with, it's at Aquinas101.com? Exactly, yeah. Aquinas 101. It's moving and grooving. Yeah. Yeah. So let's see, we launched late August, early September, and we released two videos a week. The first 27 of them are to introduce you to St. Thomas, why he's important, why he's worthwhile. And then we just walk you through basic philosophical distinctions that give you the vocabulary for doing the work of theology. So good. Yeah, man. It's sweet. And then so in like two and a half weeks, we're going to wrap up the philosophical primer and transition into the Summa section. So we're just going to take you by the

hand and walk you through the big ticket items. The first one is about the five ways, Father James Brent, who is awesome. I love that man. He's incredible. He's such a good teacher. Yeah, so he'll talk to you about the five ways, and then you'll have a video on some of the divine attributes and on naming God. So it just gives you a sense of the whole, accompanied with some sweet readings, some sweet podcasts. It's delightful. You can enroll. It's free. You can also not enroll and just check out the videos on YouTube because what's not to love?

I just had my assistant reach out to Father James Brandt about him coming on – flying know flying him down here to atlanta to be on the matt frad show boom by the way it's super it's super awkward by the way that i've named my show the matt frad show because now i have to say the matt frad show all the time i should have called it something else anyway um i really hope that he says yes because he's someone kind of like yourself who i feel like i can throw like all of my questions and objections to and it won't in any way phase him. He's very wise. He's also a very good teacher. And not in a way where he starts opening his mouth and he just bulls you over with all the things that he knows.

But you'll find at the end of his description, that's the best I've ever heard that thing described. And he spends a lot of time with images. He spends a lot of time with sweet analogies. And I preached a handful of retreats with him and it translates seamlessly into the spiritual life. Like he's a man very much in love with the Lord and very docile to the movement of the Holy Spirit. So I just, I have the utmost respect for him. Great love for him. Yeah. I can tell that when he talks, it sounds like he actually believes what he's talking about. Like, you know, sometimes you, I mean obviously, we all kind of hopefully believe what we're talking about. But when he talks about it, I'm like, wow, like you really, really, really know that you believe this stuff, you know.

He does. He does indeed. For those who are listening, I interviewed Father James Brent, episode 137 on deification or theosis. We had a big discussion on that back in the day. So episode 137 for those interested. Anyway, I was thinking what we could do in this episode is kind of maybe just, I would love to chat more about you

and your conversion and your love for Christ and becoming a Dominican and what it's like being a priest and things like that. Because I know people are so thrilled when you come on and they love listening to you and you've got a wealth of knowledge and a great way of communicating things. But yeah.

Thanks, man. So here's what I know. Your mom's a fan of Pines with Aquinas. What else? Dig. What else is there to know? Let's see. Biographical sketch.

All right. I just want to take a moment here to say a huge thanks to Halo for sponsoring this episode. Halo is an app you need to know about it if you are somebody who wants to take your prayer life to the next level. There are a lot of apps out there today like Calm and Headspace, which are really well developed, but they can lead to new age ways of thinking. What's great about Halo is that it is no less sophisticated than those other apps, but it is 100% Catholic. Halo offers a permanently free version of their app, which includes content that is updated every day, as well as a paid subscription option with

premium content. But by using the promo code Matt Fradd, one word, Matt Fradd, you can try out all of the sessions in the app for a full month. That's ridiculous. And it's totally for free. So how do you take advantage of this? Do me a favor. Go to hallo.app. That's H-A-L-L-O-W.A-P-P slash Matt Fradd. hallo.app slash Matt Fradd. Do it right now and create your account online before downloading the app, and you'll get access to all of it. It's really terrific stuff. You can allow the app to lead you through, say, a 10- or 15-minute Lectio Divina prayer session.

It has lovely meditations to help you go to sleep, examination of conscience. It'll help you pray the rosary. again 100 catholic and really really really well produced so please help them out or help me out i guess by going to so they'll keep paying me to do this hello.app slash matt frad hello.app slash matt frad i was born in newtown pennsylvania which is outside of philadelphia pronounced by its denizens philadelphia Um, my mom is from North Jersey. My dad is, she doesn't actually know what that she did. It's so, it's so exciting. Uh, and then my dad's from Detroit. They met and married in Portland, Oregon, and then moved out to the East coast and started

raising up a brood of children. So I've, I'm one of four. And, uh, I think that like, well, in, in the genre of vocation story, I like to say that I was born and then my life was boring and then I grew up and then my life was boring and then I kind of matured to my present condition and my life was boring. I think a lot of time when you talk about their life, your life, there's a pressure to make it sound awesome. Yeah. And my life has kind of been mostly normalish um and which is fine it turns out because like yeah there's i mean if you've ever been to these youth conferences and there's this big i was on crack as a protestant and then i it's usually something like that involves drugs it involves violence conversion radical involves fornication and then there's some catastrophic incident which involves like simultaneously

like the tallest building in chicago the coast guard a lightning strike um and the discovery of radium and then this guy ends up in a hospital like hearing the voice of god and then he knows he's supposed to be a priest you're like holy, holy Moses. Um, you know, it's just, it's overwhelming because on the one hand you're like, if God does that type of stuff and he doesn't do it for me, clearly I don't matter. Um, and on the other hand, like what in the world? So yeah. Um, I don't think that God always calls people to do interesting things in sensational ways. I think that often he just does it in very ordinary ways with the kind of dispensation of grace that he himself has established in the sacramental order. Actually, cool little analogy.

I was reading St. Augustine's Tractates on John, and at the miracle of the wedding feast of Cana, he says, what is the miracle? Christ takes water and makes it wine. What about this, he says, is special or extraordinary? Well, he says, think about the ordinary course in which one makes wine. You plant a vineyard, and then the rain falls and waters the grapes. They grow to maturity. You gather them, crush them, ferment them, and then you get wine. But effectively, what you have is rain becomes wine. That is to say that water becomes wine. Why then would the Lord do this miracle in the way that he did? He says, by doing it in extraordinary fashion,

he draws our attention to how very marvelous is the ordinary fashion. And so I think that those sensational vocation stories, you know, which are insane, they draw our attention to the fact that God is healing and elevating our natures in the life of grace on a day-to-day basis, which is cool and something worthy of appreciation. So yeah, my life is pretty boring. Did you have, how many brothers and sisters were you homeschooled? What was it like growing up? Were your parents particularly faithful? My parents are particularly faithful yeah so my mother is uh the more charismatic of the two baptized in the holy spirit moving and grooving beautiful my father is the more contemplative of the two um so kind of has an inclination to tell his wife to calm down settle down yeah he's he's

he's more taciturn he's an accountant so he has an accountant joke that he tells sometimes he says what's the difference between an introverted accountant and an extroverted accountant the extra yeah okay all right sorry yeah i'm sorry uh the introvert accountant uh he looks at his shoes when he talks to you okay the extroverted accountant looks at your shoes when he talks to you. It's like, woohoo. That's good. It's pretty sweet. As someone who is surprisingly introvert, I get it.

I'm great at speaking to 1,200 people, but it exhausts me to talk to people one-on-one afterwards. Wow. Okay. Well, cheers. The Lord moves in mysterious ways. So,, mom, dad, love the Lord. And they raised us Catholic. We went to a public school because there wasn't room in the Catholic school and we moved to the town where we live. And then they found out that the public school was like good enough. So we had one of those like kind of us against them mentalities. It was like, yeah, like we have to fight for our faith. You know, those Catholic school kids, they don't have to. So we're somehow better according to our strange logic. Little did you know.

Yes, so. Meaning that the Catholics, just to be obviously clear, meaning that the Catholic school students had to fight for their faith because they were probably being taught heresy. Continue. I didn't pick up on that, but I'm glad you made that clear. So big things in our family were daily prayer. Well, I should say, as a family, we went to Medjugorje a couple of times.

So one does not have to believe that Medjugorje is true. 20% of my listenership just tuned in. Yeah, exactly. You don't have to believe that in any way, shape, or form. Also, like when speaking about it publicly, you refer to them as alleged apparitions because you don't presume the veracity thereof. But this is a big thing for my family, and it's very formative for us to take pilgrimages, to go to a holy place as a place of ongoing conversion. And we were encouraged there to pray, specifically to pray the rosary, to make worthy reception of Holy Communion, you know, to go to Holy Mass often, to go to the Sacrament of Confession once a month, to read the scripture, and to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. Very good things, man.

Yes. My sister had her conversion in Medjugorje. A lot of people don't know that. That's awesome. Yeah, for me, it was every time we went, and we went a few times because my parents started leading trips there. For me, it was every time we went, and we went a few times because my parents started leading trips there. They had a little Catholic bookshop in their town, and then they had this pilgrimage company that they ran trips out of. Didn't make any money, but brought a lot of people to holy places and facilitated conversions.

So we went with some frequency. And each time I went, I was always strengthened, deepened in my relationship with the Lord. So it was just a big thing. And then coming home, prayer was a mainstay. So my father always insisted on a daily rosary as a family. Family that prays together, stays together, they say. And I wasn't especially pumped about this for most of my life. Actually, many of us were not pumped about this for most of our lives because we would prefer to do other things which

are less efficacious. But my dad was very insistent, so he won out on most nights. And then my mom was very devious in a good way. She would open up the floor for petitions at the beginning of the rosary, which moms out there, this is a great way to learn or to find out what your kids are worried about, thinking about what's going on in their lives. All right. Maybe you don't agree. No, I do entirely. That's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Cheers. Okay. Perfect. So yeah, you should open it up and then you'd pray for this friend at school who was sick or you'd pray for this friend at school whose parents were separating or you'd pray for whatever, you know, and then your mom knew everything about your life and she could be more plugged in and sensitive to those things and cuddle you accordingly. Um, so yeah, we pray

the rosary. Most, most of the members of my family would fall asleep because we're great at that. Um, but then a couple of us would soldier onto the end. I myself cannot fall asleep during the rosary, at least in that setting. I have tried, but fail again and again. So yeah, prayer was big. And then my parents' bookshop, they got books from Franciscan University Press. So they encouraged my sister to visit, my oldest sister to visit. She went.

She came back, was evidently happy. My next sister went. She came back, was evidently happy. My next sister went, she came back, was evidently happy. And so for me, you know, the calculus was pretty straightforward. I have a kind of lukewarm life, you know, I'm trying to live faithfully, but I kind of stink at it. My sisters went to this place and they got better at it, so I should just go to this place. So I applied to one school with an 86% acceptance rate, Franciscan University of Steubenville, Hale Steubenville, Albemarle. And I went. Okay. So, okay. Were your folks kind of pressuring you to go to Steubenville? Was that their preferred option for you?

They wanted us to go to Steubenville. I think pressure has a negative connotation. Were they encouraging you gently? Yeah, exactly. They were testifying to the excellence of stupid. So what years were you at Steubenville? 2006 to 2010. Okay, that's amazing. 2006, I was married. August 12th, what were you doing that day?

Yeah, I don't know. I was probably, what did one do at 18? I was probably thinking too much about my physical appearance. You were 18 in 2006? You better believe it. How dare you be so smarter than me and yet much younger? I'm 36 now. How old are you now?

31. Yeah. That's beautiful. Just a wee lad. What a gift. And so were you part of – I wish I went to Steubenville. I have heard so many great things about it. Luke and Goma from a podcast, Catching Foxes, talk about it quite often because they were both alumni. So what was it like?

Steubenville was sweet. The thing I think that I appreciated most about Steubenville was that it was a place where you formed Christian friendships. So Steubenville grads have their, you know, they have their criticisms of Steubenville. But one thing you can't knock is that you were in an environment in which it was encouraged to love the Lord, to do so intensely, to kind of have a missionary zeal about it. And yeah, to do it together. And I had some friends in high school, you know, some very good friends who were very solicitous for my good, but I didn't have, um, like a good group of Christian friends who were, you know, like, you know, who had like a, an idea that we should be penitential together, that we should pray together, that we should go to mass together. Um, and then I went to Steubenville my freshman

year. I was still kind of like weird and lonely. Cause I was like, I must be cool. I must be thought cool. And then that just hamstrings all your efforts at actually living a normal life. But then I went to Austria the fall semester of 2007. And one of the guys there was like, hey, a bunch of us jumped in the river yesterday morning. You should jump in the river with us tomorrow. I was like, OK, sounds great. There's this yeah, there's this snow melt felt fed stream that ran out in front of the charter house where we did our studies. And so we would go every morning, and the clarion call was penance, penance, penance for poor sinners. So it was freezing cold.

It was freezing cold, yeah. So it was really cold. At one point, we tried to jump 10 times in a row because we were going on a 10-day break, and we just gave up after three because our heads felt like they were going to explode. I could see the first jump. Yeah! Yeah, I'm done. I'm really done it's over yeah so um i i ended up making some of my best friendships there in uh in austria with yeah a bunch of guys zeff and jags and cohen and tony and sean and you know like teresa i mean just like a bunch of really good people which is why i'm still in contact did you have you have Scott Hahn as a professor at any point?

I did not have Scott Hahn as a professor. I didn't actually study theology while I was there. I studied math and humanities and Catholic culture, which was a Catholic studies program where you got a bunch of different things. It was great. It was delightful. So the professor of that was really, yeah, he was a soldier, Professor James Gaston.

He was really good to me. But, but yeah, you, you did like philosophy, political philosophy, a little bit of historical theology, literature and history, and you tried to kind of integrate it all so that you had a sense for, um, yeah, the shape of the whole, um, how things held together rather than just doing, you know, different competencies or what do you call it, like different specializations. The idea was that you would forge the tools for learning and get a real liberal education, an education proper to a free man. I don't know about you, but speaking of stupid and charismatic renewal and stuff, I love charismatic people. I love when I meet a Catholic who loves Jesus Christ and the tradition in the church and wants to pray over me to heal people. I love when I meet a Catholic who loves Jesus Christ and the tradition

in the church and wants to pray over me to heal me. I love those people. What was it like for you? It sounds like your mom, as you say, was more charismatic than your father. You went to a school that tends to bend towards charismatic. What was your experience in that regard? Yeah. No, I think, again, some people are critical of the charismatic movement or critical of Steubenville for kind of its stance on the thing. But I think that in the United States, you have all kinds of good options for Catholic universities, which are very faithful to the tradition. I think Steubenville is at its best when it's unabashedly charismatic because it serves

a particular place in the body of Christ. You know, like when Father Michael Scanlon came in the 70s, that's how he established it as something distinct because he was basically brought there, from what I understand, to close the university because it was financially insolvent. It had been set up right after the Second World War to capitalize on the GI Bill to kind of scoop up the dollars. But yeah, it just wasn't a good place. It was kind of a party school and just wasn't really that nice a place to go in the 70s. And then he went and he just brought in a bunch of people that he knew from the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which was just really getting going at that time. Like the Duquesne weekend was only a few years

before and the Curcio movement was humming along. Um, and so he brought in these people and said, like, if there's one thing that's true about this place, it's that it will be intensely Catholic and on fire with the love of the Holy Spirit. And, um, he made his business management decisions in that mode. Um, and it ended up becoming a place that was very attractive with, you know, the summer conferences. And then he brought in a lot of, you know, good Catholic professors who wanted to teach the faith and its integrity. And he set up this household system where when you came to campus, you were joined, you know, like you were, I don't know what you would call the word, inducted into a group of men and women who had a particular focus, whether it

be scripture or mission or, you know, whatever, and that you'd meet with them to discuss the readings, you'd pray a rosary together, you'd do whatever other thing throughout the course of the week. So that this idea that you were, that you were entering into conscious, deliberate, intentional relationships, friendships for love of the Lord. I mean, it's just simple stuff. I mean, it sounds to us relatively simple, but to do so at that time was, was revolutionary. And yeah, Steubenville is still charismatic. I think less so than it formerly was. People will talk about the glory days when they'd get together for prayer meetings and the fire department would show up because flames would be seen to lick off the steeple of the chapel.

You know what I did last night? I was cleaning the kitchen and I put my iPhone into the dock to play some music. And I was looking at Fleetwood Mac and I'm like, yeah, but, and I looked up, I just typed in praise and worship, and it brought up a list of all the old school praise and worship songs. These are the days of Elijah. Yes, Lord, yes, Lord. All those songs.

And I thought, I don't know why, but I'm like, I'm going to listen to this. And it was beautiful. It was so lovely. Yeah. And I thought, I don't know why, but I'm like, I'm going to listen to this. And it was beautiful. It was so lovely. Yeah. I think, yeah. No, there's a kind of like simple joy in those things. And again, people will be critical that sometimes the charismatic movement gets kind of caught up in emotion and it lacks a contemplative dimension. But I think that there's something to be said for the incorporation of the

emotions in one's spiritual life. You know, you're not going to, you're not just trying to stay there. You're not just trying to stir yourself up or titillate your passions. So that way you feel something sensible, some kind of consolation. And then in that experience, you know that the Lord loves you because, you know, you want to move beyond that to grow in the life of faith. But, yeah, there's, I mean, it's awesome. I'm always bothered by people who are against praise and worship music.

That always really bothers me. I get it if they're against it in the divine liturgy and holy mass. But I was going to a gala of sorts recently. And someone I was going with said that they're going to do these different performances. And someone said, yeah, someone's going to get up and they're going to play some music. It's going to be a bit of a little praise and worship. And they kind of made this kind of gag kind of reaction. Like, ah, that's super sad.

Because these people are okay listening to secular music, so why not listen to secular music that's about Jesus? I don't understand why we're so against this. Yeah. No, I mean, the literary merits of praise and worship vary. I think there are good, bad, and different. We've talked about this before. Yeah, we have actually, yeah. I mean, the things that get me most, I don't know, the things that I find most fruitful spiritually are the ones where you have the impression that this person who is singing has a spiritual life, right? That they're engaging with the scriptures, you know, they have like life shaped by liturgical worship, and that they're passing the scriptures through this experience, and then they're giving you something that is the fruit of their Alexio. And I think

that there's a lot of that on offer, and a lot of it is really excellent and delightful. I can name names, but it's what it is. Now, you've said in previous episodes that it was a talk by Eleanor Stump on love that led you to become interested more in Thomas Aquinas and the Dominicans? That is correct, yeah. So my freshman year of college, my sisters, who are sage women,

they counseled me not to date. They're like, you're going to go to Steubenville. They're going to be like a bunch of beautiful Catholic women in such a wild concentration that your head will spin. The idea will be – you're going to want to date all of them, so don't do that. They're all beautiful and love Jesus. them. Um, so don't do that. Uh, rather full, make some, make some good friends and then, you know, you can, you can cross that bridge when you come to it. So I was like, okay, sage women giving me sweet counsel, I'll do it. And, um, that was, you know, like it's not, it wasn't like I was perpetually dating in high school cause I wasn't. Um, but you know, you're always in the kind of,

of the mind that you're on the lookout. And then for that year, I wasn't on the lookout, which created a space in me interiorly, which I had not really cultivated to that point. And then I went to a lecture that Eleanor Stumpf gave on the, uh, Aquinas on the nature of love. And it was really, yeah, it was really life changing because I had, you know, I'd read some things about the faith previously. I wasn't an especially good student of the faith. I mean, my, my parents had us, you know, in CCD and they did a lot of faith formation with us at home and they ran a Bible study at which we were expected to be present. You know, like you kind of got it here and there, but my knowledge of the faith was pretty eclectic and it was good enough to win Catholic Jeopardy in my fourth grade CCD class, but not much better.

But then have you always been a smart dude? Like at school, did you get good grades? I got good grades, but mostly because I was a perfectionist and I was like freaking out about what would happen if I didn't get good grades. Dude, I remember one time like recess, I was wearing these khakis. It was like fourth grade and i got grass stains on them and i just like had a meltdown i was like oh you're never gonna get these clean again so i just fretted i fretted now you are a white habit yeah it's tragic yeah no in your gross stuff on it every day um yeah so i i would just fret about stuff fret about life

fret about grades and so quite naturally that's one thing that you can kind of control. So I took my fretting out on my studies. But yeah, Eleanor Stump just starts waxing eloquent and incisive on St. Thomas on the nature of love. And I just found it really, really, really good. Um, it was like, here's something that I can sink my teeth into. And it seems like this is not just, um, a one-off response. It's a wisdom, you know, it's, it's something that you can enter into something that can occupy your studies for, for many days hence. So it's at that point that I started reading about St. Thomas, mostly about St. Thomas. I wasn't reading St. Thomas because I don't know that I would have profited much at that point. Cause I was just like, Whoa. Um, and I read a life of St. Thomas. I wasn't reading St. Thomas because I don't know that I would have profited much at that point because I was just like, whoa. And I read A Life of St. Thomas Aquinas, a charming historical fiction, The Quiet Light. And that was it. That was really it. That summer, I went to Medjugorje with my family. So that was great. I was also living in Maine with my aunt and uncle. And so I had a lot of time to read, which was cool because my family home was kind of a little

bit of a circus, a fun circus, but a circus nonetheless. So I had more time to read, and I was also going to these – I was going to this monastery of Lithuanian Franciscans in Kennebunk, Maine every Wednesday for these Marian nights. And I was just like watching these men like take care of the Blessed Sacrament and preach very devoutly. And I was going to adoration at this Jesuit church in North Portland, and I met this priest there, Father Matthew Monag, who was really also really inspiring. So there's just like a lot of things coming together all at the same time. And it just dawned on me, like, I want to love the Lord the way that St. Thomas loves the Lord. And that's got a claim on my life. Have you ever been in a dating relationship? I have. Yeah, I did it in high school a little bit. Oh, yeah. Yep. I have, yeah. I did it in high school a little bit.

Oh, yeah. Yep. So was it a difficult decision to decide to be celibate? Was it a difficult decision to decide to be celibate? So what I lack in virtue, I make up for in vice. And what you lack in children, you make up in peace. So you probably made the right choice. Continue. No, I just mean to say that what I lacked in genuine discernment and a kind of humble admission that this is difficult. I had in pride. I was like, I can do this. It'll be

great. I'm awesome. Who's got two thumbs and is a total boss? This guy. Um, so like I never really, yeah, it's not something at which I balked. I was like, yeah, I'd really love to date and marry this lady, but, um, I guess I'll do this other thing. Um, and then I like kind love to date and marry this lady, but I guess I'll do this other thing. And then I kind of got more and more confident about it, and then it became part of my self-description and my narrative to my friends. So I kind of built it into the old identity. Oh, I like that. That's a really honest way to put it. So, yeah, I mean, there were times when I was like, if I were to back off from this, I'd be the kind of guy that quits things and is a wiener and doesn't know his own mind.

Can't do that so like i mean my motivations for doing it were good bad mixed weird upright hilarious you know what do you say to people this is such a beautiful honest thing you're saying right now because i think when people are discerning the priesthood they are terrified and so do not look at the poor motivations they have like wearing the roman collar or wearing the franciscan habit or what have you you know it might be a real desire to be seen like that like oh man i can grow a good beard i'd look like a cool sweet franciscan you know um what do you say to people who are do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you go. I think that God can use mixed motivations. I think a lot of us are in search of a chemically pure intention, and we won't feel confident that what we are doing is morally praiseworthy and upright until such time as we have a chemically pure intention.

I just don't think that's going to happen anytime soon because if it is the case that we are fallen and all of our powers, all And so that our particular acts or motivations come off sideways at times. I mean, it should come as no surprise, but that the Lord can use that because the Lord is provident and he orchestrates all of these things, both interior and exterior, unto the praise of his glory. And so it might be the case that you're attracted to religious life because you think the habit's cool or because you think that people will pay more attention to you or because you're a raging narcissist. And this is a way to ensure that people will have to look at and listen. It could be a variety of reasons. Granted, you want to purify your intentions.

But if it's worth looking at, you take a look at it and the Lord will disabuse you of the deception and he'll strengthen you in the resolve if it's worth looking at, you take a look at it, and the Lord will disabuse you of the deception, and he'll strengthen you in the resolve if it's real. I think I've told you this before, but I was discerning the Capuchins for quite a while before I met my wife. Yeah. And I spoke to a bishop who was a Capuchin, and he said to me without me suggesting that I was attracted to the Capuchins because the habit was super freaking cool. He said, you know, don't be afraid if you are attracted to the Franciscans because of the habit. He says, if you were to get married, you would be perhaps attracted to a woman for superficial reasons. And those reasons would have to deepen. And I thought that was really great.

Like, yeah, like when I met my wife, like she's super sweet and pretty. I like her eyeballs. reasons and those reasons would have to deepen and i thought that was really great like yeah like when i met my wife like she's super sweet and pretty i like her eyeballs you know like marrying a woman because you like her eyeballs not good enough um but it's a start and so i think there's something similar there too like there's a superficial kind of attraction to the habit but not to be afraid of that but at the same time as you say to be honest about it like to say yeah like i guess there is a part of me that thinks if I were a priest, people would look at me in a certain way. To acknowledge that, that can be a difficult thing to do. Yeah. I just think like many people are narcissistic or many people are insecure

or many people are X, Y, and Z, other things. And it's just, I mean, it's a deal, but it's not that big of a deal. It's just you can't be surprised by the fact that— Yeah, the Lord isn't. Yeah, no, for sure. And that your kind of psychological predispositions are going to inform the way that you think about reality. But that, like, by God's grace, that you can sort that out a little bit. You don't ever have perfect access to your own interior states. You're only ever going to, like, know who you are as you come to discover how you act,

but that you can get better at it. That's part of the fun of life. What was the biggest temptation for you then, do you think, as far as the negative reasons that were drawing you towards the priesthood? In part, I think I did it because I perceived it as perfect in general, or I perceived it as difficult. Like when I was thinking about going to school, going to college, I ended up choosing to go to Steubenville. But the other big thing for me was the United States Naval Academy because I had uncles who did it and because it was the hardest thing. It was the most demanding physically, intellectually. I mean the admissions process.

So sometimes I'm just attracted to something because it's hard. And that can in part be magnanimous, but it can also be vainglorious. Like I want people to know me as a man who overcomes difficulties and obstacles. Like I want to be seen as the gladiator in the ring who has vanquished his enemy. And religious life, I mean, you can't take it up as something generically interesting or something generically difficult. It has to be something to which the Lord invites you personally. And mind you, like the kind of generic interest can – that can lead, but it has to mature beyond that. And I think that I can be a butthead, and I can – yeah, I can be kind of tend in that direction just to do things because they're hard, to make of life an extended exercise in moral heroism. Like I'm going to be a juggernaut.

But that guy, he's just a pain. No one likes that guy. No one likes hanging out with that guy because he can't relax. Like you're trying to have a delicious meal and enjoy each other's company and he's like – I'm doing Exodus 90. Yeah, exactly. And I will clear the dishes 20 minutes into the meal to show how very heroically generous I am. But it's like, chief, like, this is supposed to be a space in which we can enjoy each other. And you're being a butthead. You know, it's like, but I am a strong butthead.

And I was like, ah, you're killing me. But yeah, whatever. What was the most difficult? What was the point during your formation towards becoming a priest, or at least taking your final vows, that you thought, maybe I can't do this? Or was there a point like that? Yeah. So, like, well, I'm thinking of a point before and a point during. There was a point before where I was kind of starting to manage my life a little bit. my life a little bit. I was making decisions that I thought accorded with prudence, but it was a kind of human prudence that had lost sight of the divine inspiration of a vocation. I was thinking that I should get some life experience before entering the seminary. So I was conscious of

the fact like I am a 21-year-old pimple-faced punk kid, and I'm very entitled, and I'm very selfish, and I don't really know anything about life. So do the people of God need me telling them what to do with their lives? Certainly not. So I should go and I should work and just kind of get kicked around a bit. So that way I come back to the enterprise just a little more mature, which is like a fine enough sentiment. It's just a human wisdom. It's not a divine wisdom. And then I was at Bible study with my household brothers, and we were praying with a text from John 1, when the Lord Jesus passes by John the Baptist, and John the Baptist

says, behold the Lamb of God. And John the Baptist, two of his disciples are there, Andrew and an unnamed disciple, and they go ahead and follow after the Lord Jesus. And then the Baptist, two of his disciples are there, Andrew and an unnamed disciple. And they go ahead and follow after the Lord Jesus. And then the Lord turns and says, what do you seek? And then they say, Master, where are you staying? And then he says, come and see. And it says they stayed with him. It was the 10th hour. And at the end of that exchange, Andrew comes back to his brother Simon.

And he says to them, he says to him, sorry, we have found the Messiah. Simon, and he says to them, he says to him, sorry, we have found the Messiah. And there was something about his certainty and the urgency of his announcement, which really, it just affected me pretty deeply, and it kind of stayed with me. That was a Thursday night. And by Saturday morning, I knew that I couldn't dilly-dally, and that I had to apply for the upcoming year. Turns out that that Thursday night was January 28th, which is the Feast of St. Thomas Aquinas. And I called the vocation director and I'd been in touch with him, you know, because I was supposed to check in every hour so long. And I was like, can I do this for this upcoming year? He's like, yep. Yeah, sure. We've got one more vocation weekend and, you know,

one more psych exam and you just fill out this, that or the other thing and we'll get it all queued up. So the Lord took care of it and kind of made it work. But yeah, that was just a very significant moment for me where I had almost managed the thing out of existence. Because if I had gone and worked, I would have met a beautiful woman and I would have married her and it would have been great. And I'm sure we'd have had a happy life and made wonderful kids, maybe one of whom would have become a Dominican friar. But I mean, the chances of me like entering would have probably gone down, if I'm honest. Yeah. But what about during your formation? So you enter the seminary.

Was there a point in which you were like, I can't do this? Or was it just up and up from that point? So the kind of emotional purgation of the earliest months of the novitiate was hard. Because I was just used to being with people whom I loved all the time. And then I was just with a bunch of people who I didn't know all the time. And it was bracing. And then in formation, it was just a different experience in formation where I was formally accustomed to live in a family home with my mother telling me like a thousand times a day how much she loved me. And then baking me special you know like delicious treats and then like us watching csi miami like i can't wait to meet your mom one day

she sounds amazing she's a cool lady um and then you know you go to house of formation it's just it's it's silent you know it's cloistered it's um penitential you're wearing a habit everything's strange and different and so so, I mean, before entering, I was always, I always had, you know, some struggles with being sad and being lonely and being anxious. And then those were, you know, were made more acute in formation just because like things that I suppose you could describe as coping mechanisms or just normal everyday ways to adjust were removed. And I no longer had access to those means and so that was very that was tough you know so i like i had some difficulties with insomnia where

you know there's just lots of nights where i just didn't sleep at all and i mean that was also like a time for me of great grace where i have good friends in formation who said you know you should just like wake me up and we can chat through it rather than you just kind of staying in your mind and going nuts. And I was like, okay, nice friend. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean, mind you, I still hesitated to do that because I was like, oh no, he should get sleep, blah, blah, blah. And if I were to do that, he'd probably resent it because I'm a nut job. Um, yeah, but then it became for me an occasion of greater growth and things since then have gotten good. But like, I mean, in recent times, like, uh, the past couple of years have challenged the narrative that things continue to get happier and happier because you're ordained a priest

and then you're given an incredible amount of work. I shouldn't complain. I mean, like a lot of people, I'm sure work harder than priests. So I don't want to like say like priests work so hard and blah, blah, blah. But you know, you work tolerably hard. Please God, you give us the grace. And then with each passing month, you just get more, you know, and the expectation is that you have to live an integrated life and you have to be able to do so in a way where you can maintain your friendships and have a healthy spiritual

direction and like make use of the sacrament of confession. And, you know, like you have to you have to take care of yourself and your sanity with the expectation that you show up and deliver in a variety of ways. So life continues to be challenging and sad in certain ways and lonely in others and sometimes anxiety-inducing, but not without its very, very real and rich blessings. It can feel at times like you're getting bludgeoned by reality, but that the Lord continues to show up and make himself present. What made you, I mean, you talked about your love for Thomas Aquinas and that led you to the Dominicans, but suppose somebody's out there right now and they're like, diocesan, religious order, what suggestions or advice would you give them as they discern that? Yeah, sure. I think that a diocesan priest, usually he has a characteristic desire to be of service to the people of God, to be poured out for the people of God, to be generous,

you know, to be a man for others. And religious typically have a desire to be given wholly unto the Lord. That's not to say that those two things are in conflict, because they're not. And a diocesan priest has the call to be given to the Lord, and the religious has a, you know, has a call in certain instances to be given to the people of God. But the religious daydreams of martyrdom. He daydreams of heroic sacrifice. He daydreams of doing magnanimous feats with great love in a way that's devout and wholly given. So there's this kind of – there's a cultic dimension to religious life where you yourself are the offering.

You yourself are the sacrifice, the oblation, and you want to be given whole and entire to the Lord without any, you know, without any, I don't know, division. And then the priest, it's, I mean, he's gifted or graced with a supernatural generosity. All of the grace that comes into his life is for the people whom he serves, and he wants to be implicated in their lives. He wants to be present at the bedside, he wants to be present, you know, at the altar, he wants to be present at the gravesite, he wants to be implicated in their lives. He wants to be present at the bedside. He wants to be present, you know, at the altar. He wants to be present at the gravesite. He wants to be present there because he has this distinct impression that that's precisely the reason for which he has come. So, yeah, I just say, I mean, they're different things, but your desires will give indication as to what it is that you're made for. I had a priest share with me, he was perhaps

being a little more joking than you are there. But he said, you know, diocesan priests, we're like the dad. You know, it says like, whereas maybe the kind of religious is kind of like the uncle or something. Like, you're over there, you know, like you're holy with your beard and your prayer and stuff. Whereas, like, we're in the midst of it where, you know, the parishioners see when we're angry or when we're short with them or whatever.

I remember for me, I lived in a really rural diocese. And I just didn't want to be alone. That's why I wanted to be a religious priest. I just wanted to be with a group of men when I was a sitting priesthood. I mean, that's a good reason. And I've talked to a handful of people for whom that's also the case. Some people are just attracted by the worship,

you know, like the liturgical life. In a diocesan setting, you make it, you know, like you make it as beautiful or as ugly as you see fit in your parish. But oftentimes you're just, you're praying alone. And then in religious life, you're kind of born on by a conventional liturgy. So there's just a greater time and care afforded to that.

And, yeah, I mean, there's different differences, but that's probably sufficient for here. Have you heard one of your parents' or siblings' confession? You have to say who, but have you? That's right. I'm going to beg off and say I don't typically describe confessional ministry. Well done. That was a test, and you passed with flying colors.

What is something you're involved in right now that you're really excited about? What is something I'm involved in right now that I'm really excited about? So working with the Domestic Institute has been a, a signal blessing. Um, because why, why is it? Uh, because the students are awesome, uh, because they're really delightful. Um, and because they're really generous in the service of their campus. Like there's just a lot of students with whom we work who are super motivated to be, um, the engine, to be the

protagonist of the intellectual evangelization of their peers. And they believe that like, it really matters, you know, when you bring these speakers to campus, it's not just another event. It's not just like something else to put on your resume. It's like souls hang in the balance. And when people hear the truth announced in a way that's articulate and compelling, it can, you know, it can, it can alter the trajectory of their lives. Um, they might be speaking about faith and reason. They might be speaking about neuroscience. They might be speaking about aesthetic judgment. They might be speaking, and it doesn't matter too terribly much, but if you propose something as true,

uh, with the understanding that our minds can be more and more shaped by that truth, um, and that we can grow in knowledge and love of it then yeah that's that's a big ticket item so my my job is to visit all of these students to kind of coordinate and animate their efforts a lot of times they don't really require much it's just me hanging out and you know giving high fives um and then to give some talks and like arrange some conferences and retreats and do the media stuff and blah blah blah that's good so do you have a lot of kind of contact with the students who are reaching out to the Domestic Institute to have people come to their campuses?

Is that part of your role? Yeah. So I'll meet them all over the course of the year. I'll visit all of the campuses over the course of the year at least once and sometimes more than that. And then I'm kind of back and forth with them in email just to set those things up and then to follow up afterwards. And then I'll see them at – we have retreats on the East Coast, West Coast. We're starting one

in Canada. I'll see them at those retreats. And then we see them over the summer at our summer conferences. We have a big student leadership conference, which is a jamboree for all the principals at these different places. So yeah, I mean, over the course of even just, I've worked for the TI for 15 months. I'm still counting it in months like a small child. Yeah, I've gotten to know quite a few of them pretty well and to form relationships which are just super rich. I mean like the best thing about the priesthood is the people. The relationships are just super fruitful and they're the type of things that make the day worth living worth living make life possible have you been super impressed at the intelligence of the students i know when i came to the tamistic institute summer conference thing i'm like i couldn't keep up with anybody

we kept chatting and as soon as we got past like hey yeah i got i'm like i don't know what you're talking about anymore that was so it was so smart and i was just and and not just smart but like good and holy i'm like man i'm so happy i'm so excited for the future of christianity here in america when i meet these people the conference that you were at is is there's quite a few smart people that go to that um i think in general my sense of the thing is you don't have to be especially smart to be involved with the domestic institute um you just have to care. And that's not like everyone can do it. So everyone's a hero. It's like a lot of the students with whom we work have an intellectual appetite. You know, they have a desire to be fed in this type of way.

But for some of them, it's a struggle. You know, it's a struggle to get through their semester. It's a struggle to matriculate in whatever program they're in. It's a struggle to get through their semester. It's a struggle to matriculate in whatever program they're in. It's a struggle to see it off and to see it through. And, you know, I mean, even to add in extracurriculars, it can be especially burdensome. So it's not like they're not all just high flying birds and just, just doing it seamlessly. A lot of them are, I mean, it's, it's purchased at the price of blood, sweat, and tears. They care enough for that. No, you don't have to be smart, but it helps. Well, fantastic.

Thank you so very much. Tell us about, I think you have two podcasts now? Podcast. What's going on? Two things. I want people to know. I keep joking lately that pints with aquinas is a pint is a gateway drug to the domestic institute so tell people how they can

get the real deal so it's yeah so the domestic institute um we record all of the lectures that are hosted on campus and we put them on a podcast domestic institute is the name of it and so um it's it's not arranged systematically but you but you can pick up here and there on different themes and scroll through and see what you like. And then a few friars of our province started a podcast called Godsplaining. The idea being contemplative preachers, contemporary age, just chatting through things, all things Catholic, whether of philosophy, theology, arts, literature, culture. I just recorded one with a buddy on marriage kind of the state of marriage i just recorded one or just released one on one of my favorite authors cormac mccarthy and his take on things yeah i love so i look i shouldn't say i love him i literally have read

one of his books and i finished it a couple months ago the road oh yeah that's that's tremendous i think that's what a slog it Oh, but it's beautiful. Beautiful, painful, haunting. I just recorded a podcast with Jen Frey about that. Oh, she's lovely. I've had her on the show. She is lovely. Yeah, sure. Her little – not little podcast.

What do you love about him? Oh, gosh. What do I say? I love the starkness of his prose reveals a kind of starkness of his approach to reality. He wants to see it unadorned and to get to the heart of it. I think he has a real passion for calling each thing by its right name. And though I don't get the impression that he himself is a believer, he's able to deal with reality in a kind of even-handed and open-minded way, genuinely open-minded way. in a kind of even-handed and open-minded way, genuinely open-minded way, so that he capitalizes on the ambivalence of a lot of human interactions. And you can see it as broken open to transcendence,

or you can see it as ultimately tragic, but he's about inquiring into that experience. And so he comes up with a lot of really rich insights, which I think would otherwise be impossible if you just go in there with a kind of ideology and say like, I'm going to write this book to show this theme, you know? So he's really, he's searching in a way that's awesome. But anyway,

you, you said you just did an episode on that on God's blaming or did an episode on that on God's planning it. And then did another one with just specifically about the road with Jen Frey on hers, sacred and profane love. Um, now I'm just muddying the waters by naming a billion things,

but yeah, to mystic Institute podcast, Godsplaining podcast, and then Aquinas 101 is the video program for people who want to get up to speed. Well, thanks for sharing

your story with us and thanks for being on today. Oh, wonderful. Thanks for having me. Always a joy. Until the next time. Bye. Bye.

Thank you very much for listening to Pints with Aquinas. Wasn't that fascinating? Father Gregory Pine is a really fascinating guy. I tend to think it's not fair that someone should be as smart as him and at the same time socially competent. It seems to me that if God's going to allow you to be super smart, you should at least be awkward so the rest of us can feel superior in at least one way. But Father Gregory Pine really is a gift to the

church. Thank you so much for listening. Do us a favor. If you are not yet a patron, we are trying to do a ton of stuff like a Pints with Aquinas app. I'm doing free trips to developing countries next year. I'm bringing resources to them. I can't even get into all of it because it'll take me forever. But if you like the work that we're doing and you want to be a part of making it happen, you can go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd and give me five bucks a month. When I say me, there's like seven or eight of us that are kind of being paid monthly because of this. Patreon.com slash Matt Fradd to help the team here. Patreon.com slash Matt Fradd.

Thank you very much and have a very lovely day or night. Okay, bye.