Pints With Aquinas - 193: How YOU Can Prepare for Lent W/ Fr. Gregory Pine

Episode Date: February 18, 2020

Today I sit down with Fr. Gregory Pine to discuss how YOU can prepare for Lent! Buckle up! --- Aquinas' 3 Reasons We Fast Fasting is practiced for a threefold purpose. First, in order to bridle the lusts of the flesh, wherefore the Apostle says (2 Corinthians 6:5-6): "In fasting, in chastity," since fasting is the guardian of chastity. For, according to Jerome [Contra Jov. ii.] "Venus is cold when Ceres and Bacchus are not there," that is to say, lust is cooled by abstinence in meat and drink. Secondly, we have recourse to fasting in order that the mind may arise more freely to the contemplation of heavenly things: hence it is related (Daniel 10) of Daniel that he received a revelation from God after fasting for three weeks. Thirdly, in order to satisfy for sins: wherefore it is written (Joel 2:12): "Be converted to Me with all your heart, in fasting and in weeping and in mourning." The same is declared by Augustine in a sermon (De orat. et Jejun. [Serm. lxxii (ccxxx, de Tempore)]): "Fasting cleanses the soul, raises the mind, subjects one's flesh to the spirit, renders the heart contrite and humble, scatters the clouds of concupiscence, quenches the fire of lust, kindles the true light of chastity." SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Well, today we're going to ask him about the upcoming fast, Lent. How do we fast? Why should we fast? Maybe you, dear listener, are one of these people who chooses several fasts knowing that over the course of the 40 plus days, several of them will be knocked down due to your weakness, but hopefully you'll have one remaining at the end. What about that? What about maybe doing more of a tech fast than a food fast? We get into all that with Father Gregory Pine today. You're going to find this very enriching and a great preparation for Using your heart

Using your heart Using your heart Using your heart Using your heart Using your heart Using your heart Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool

next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Really, really exciting thing just happened. Many of you are familiar with Cameron Bertuzzi, who runs the website Capturing Christianity. It's also an excellent YouTube channel, like excellent. When I look at his quality, I think this is better than anything I've seen secular Christian, as far as lighting and just the quality of the footage and stuff like that. Do people still say footage? I don't know. Okay, here's what just happened. Cameron's over at my house right now. We're having a great time hanging out. He's a Protestant apologist. And we've just been hanging out the

last couple of days, getting to know each other. And today we're going to be recording an interview for Pints with Aquinas, which will be going out next month. But just two days ago, we sat down on his channel to do a live stream. And he called it something like, I grill Catholic apologist Matt Fradd with my top objections or something like that. And it was really fun. It was about an hour long. And what was great is many evangelicals who perhaps are not familiar with me or maybe have not heard a mildly coherent case for Catholicism hopefully were able to, at least in respect to the answers I gave to these objections. I think it went quite well. And this is public, so that's why I'm okay to share it.

Cameron has a guy by the name, well, I won't say his name. You can go look it up yourself, even though it is public on YouTube. He has someone who actually supports him financially. And I think I'm about to start financially supporting him on Patreon because he's just an awesome guy, Cameron. Anyway, this guy had been looking into Catholicism

over the last couple of years, but after watching our live stream, texted Cameron and also posted a comment on YouTube saying he's made the decision to finally become Catholic, which is great. I think that's really beautiful. He said, been thinking, and this is a quote directly from YouTube, been thinking and studying Catholicism for a while, several years in fact, stemming right back to my novel, The Angelic Gene. And after watching this interview with Matt Fradd, I'm going to complete the RCIA this year and continue my walk with Christ as a Catholic. As you can imagine, he got a lot of interesting responses to that on an evangelical's YouTube page, but just powerful

stuff. And then he kind of texted Cameron what he meant about that. So it's really amazing to me that YouTube and podcasts and things like that can have this effect, that it really does actually impact people's lives. I think I've said this in the past. It might just be because I'm kind of old and cromogity that I cannot imagine what it's like to have your life changed by a YouTube show or a podcast or something like that. But it really is happening. Glory to Jesus Christ. And I want to say a big thank you to our evangelical listeners out there. You know, as I say, I learn and I love my friend Cameron. And he learns from me and other Catholics.

And so even though we have disagreements, we're learning together. Glory to God. If you are interested in watching that live stream, I'll put a link at the top of the show notes. About an hour long back and forth. He kind of grills me on things like baptismal regeneration and praying to the saints and salvation and yeah, a whole host of issues, which I think you might find interesting. All right, here is my episode with Father Gregory Pine. Do you know that as we're speaking um our episode's gonna go live on youtube

no way yeah wow i think we should record us watching us and then just play that imagine how angry people would be yeah it'd be like mirrors upon mirrors uh how's it going i'm doing pretty well yeah living something, approaching my best life. How about you? Oh yeah. Yeah. I was at the airport the other day and the bloke who takes the tickets said, live in the dream. And I thought, and I thought that's funny, but I thought I really am. I love my life. I love my wife and my family and what I'm doing. That's sweet. I mean, I think I have a more, I don't know what I would call my disposition, but less sunny. So I start with like self-condemnation and then I move from there to an appreciation. So I think my first instinct is to say that my life is a dumpster fire and then move from there. Like, you know what, it's not the worst dumpster fire, you know. Interesting. I don't know why that reminds me of kind of Jewish comedy or Jewish humor, the sort of world weary uh larry david type kind of nothing's good

yeah like uh have you seen the coen brothers movie a serious man oh i don't know if i have i probably it's uh maybe like 2013 is it good it is good yeah it's a it's a reflection on job and uh basically everything goes wrong for a guy, and then the movie hits. It's awesome. I was reading, I've been reading Brother Grimm's fairy tales to my kids over the last couple of weeks. Okay. And it's terrific. Some of it is really awful.

Yeah, aren't there like many dismemberings and things like that? Last night I was reading a story by them. It's called The Robbers, I think. And there was this miller who, as his daughter grew older and he decided he couldn't take care of her, wanted to find a husband. He doesn't know much about him, but he gives her away. She goes to visit him and there's an old woman in the cellar nodding her head. And she says that him and his friends are all cannon cannibals not cannonballs sorry that would be weird although there are some weirder things in grim

brothers um anyway while they're there and while she's hiding he those three men drag a woman in by the hair get her drunk cut her into pieces and eat her and i'm reading this to my kids i'm like it's gotta make a turn soon and it didn't and the way they got him we might as well wrap this story up the way they got him is as they were butchering this woman her finger falls off on the lady's lap who's hiding and then she proceeds with the engagement until the wedding. And then at the reception, she recounts a dream she had. And the husband is going pale white, knowing he's been found out. And then she said, and then a finger falls on my lap.

And she holds up the finger. Brothers Grimm's fairy tales. Yeah, man, that's hard hitting. I was like, all of my horror stories are comedies compared to that. Yeah. No, the 21st century has not known woe like the Brothers Grimm knew woe, apparently. Yeah. I don't know.

I love it. I think there's something beautiful. Not about that story necessarily. That was pretty freaky. But I think there's this kind of, we think that we're really intelligent and woke by kind of dismissing the old fairy tales. But you think they were there for a reason. People read these for hundreds of years. You know?

I don't want to dismiss them too quickly. And my kids love them. I mean, that one was an exception. But there were others, and they're all kind of pretty gross. Well, yeah, sometimes I worry. Well, you're not an American, but I'm an American. I worry that we've lost the capacity to deal with the difficulty of life because a lot of times we experience things that are hard and we're like, I know what I will do. I will avoid this. Um,

but it seems like other cultures are more accustomed to it and more reconciled to the fact that life's hard and they're just like, they're, they're just doing their best. So like when you watch, when you watch American movies, you're like, wow, you know, things here are like tough for an hour and a half, but then, you know, the, whatever the director or the screenplay writer, whomever, just kind of got weak at the end. They're like, you know what, let's just wrap it all up nicely because these Americans, they just can't hack it. Whereas if you watch like Scandinavian film, it's like things start bad, get worse. And it ends in like a bleak landscape of nihilism

and you're like you know what cheers what's up that's funny that reminds me of a magnet i saw in a fridge that said old age isn't so bad when you consider the alternatives well i gotta look into that coen brother movie now. I'm excited to watch that. Serious man. It's a real keeper. Good stuff. Well, speaking of serious things, Lent is approaching. Nice. And I was thinking we could take some time to talk about Lent and preparing for Lent and what Aquinas has to say about why we fast and so on. I am jazzed.

I am pumped. Cool. I am jumped. I am passed. Never mind. Sorry. I am jazzed. I am pumped. I am jumped. I am passed. Never mind. Sorry. So anyway, I guess what I want to ask you is like, when you were kind of getting serious about your Catholic faith, and I know you were raised Catholic, but you know, you went to Steubenville.

When's the first time you remember getting serious about Lent? And what did you, if you don't mind telling us, give up or take on for Lent? Sure. Let's see. So my family is Catholic, and pretty intensely so. And from a young age, we took pilgrimages. My parents had a little Catholic bookshop, and they would take pilgrimages to Medjugorje. And so we went as a family a few times growing up. I was like maybe three the first time, then eight, and then maybe 13. And part of, you know, the, like the messages of Medjugorje is to do certain things. So it's like mass, scripture, go to confession every month, pray the rosary, and then fasting. And so there's always a kind of culture of fasting in my family. So my dad especially would just do bread and water on Wednesdays and Fridays. And I remember like looking at that when I was 13, and I was like, wow, that's intense slash I'm playing sports. And if I do that, I'll die.

And, but it was like maybe like 14, 15, or I was like, you know what, I should, I should try to incorporate this to the extent that it's possible. And Lent would be a time during which that was especially true. You know, I thought like, okay, penitential season, let's go, let's do it. I remember being, I worked at this restaurant when I was like 14 and 15 called Isaac Newton's in Newtown, Pennsylvania, that bustling metropolis. And, um, I, I remember preparing for cross country meets the night before I would like bus on Friday nights until like 1130 PM, which is not the best way to prepare for a cross country meet, which may account for the fact that I stink at cross-country or stunk. And I would always get like the kid's meal pasta without anything on it.

So I'd just be like eating dry rigatoni and be like, I love Jesus. I love Jesus. So that was my concession. I had a little pasta instead of bread. I was like complex carbohydrates instead of simple. a little pasta instead of bread. I was like complex carbohydrates instead of simple. Um, so for me, yeah, it was like 14, 15. And the first thing that I did with any real reflection or intensity was, was fasting. Yeah. That's, that's really impressive. Wednesdays and Fridays to give up, to just eat bread and water. That's really impressive. Hey, well, as you know,

all motivations are basically impure motivation. So I too thought it was impressive. And I also wanted other people to think it was impressive. Yeah, I don't think I've ever done something really that difficult. I'm almost ashamed to say, but not too ashamed. Maybe I should be more ashamed. I don't know. This is an excuse. I think some people just have a better disposition toward fasting than others.

I have a friend. His name is Danny Ryan. He listens to the shows in my men's group. He did Exodus 93 times last year. Wow. That's 270 days. Yeah. That's the vast majority of days.

Yeah. And I think it was because he didn't plan on doing it. He just joined a new men's group with us, and he did it with us. And I'm just thinking, you're nuts. And I said to him in a nice way, but I said, I will never, I don't think I'll ever do Exodus 90 again. Just period. What for you is the most difficult part? Uh, that's a good question. It was almost like, um, it was like the, Cold showers? It was almost like a culmination of all of the things. Okay.

Over time just wore me down. So when you're having cold showers, you can't snack, you can't have anything sweet. No alcohol. You can't have a drink with your wife at night. And it was a culmination of all of it together that was just really getting me down. But if I did it again, I'd like to do something like a tech fast. I'm actually seriously thinking about doing that. Even this Lent, I'm thinking that might be something that I'd do.

You've done that before, haven't you, over the summer? Yeah, I have. It's been a thing. Is it good or is it excruciating? A couple of years ago, I gave up the internet for August. I made it till about the 22nd of August, and then I think my website got hacked into or something. And so I went online for that. And then I was just throwing the towel after that.

But still, I mean, 22 days, it was pretty impressive. Like I bought a record player because I didn't have a phone. It was like I saved up for it. And I would play records and drink coffee in the morning. Didn't have a phone. I once went to, I had to give one speaking engagement somewhere in Georgia. And so I went and got a GPS from Walmart and returned it the next day. It's their fault. It's their fault. They didn't ask me. If they had asked me, is this, why are you returning this? I would have said,

because I want my money back. And I had planned this all along, but they didn't ask me. I had no intention of retaining it. I once bought a parakeet and returned it the next day. Why? Because I only needed the parakeet as a stage prop in a play that we were doing for a formal dance at Steubenville. We used it, and then we returned it the next day. We didn't get any money back, but we just wanted it to be taken care of,

and we weren't going to do it. That's fantastic. Yeah. A couple of things I want to say about Lent in general that I don't, I guess, I don't know, I haven't really thought this through. So let's see what happens. I don't like it when people sort of poo poo other people's fasts, or where they say, you know, this Lent, don't just give up candy. I'm like, why not? Shut up. Who are you? Maybe candy is a difficult thing for them and good for them for giving that up. What else don't I like? Lots of things. I also think that as a general rule, we're usually a lot worse than we think we are. And so something I tend to do that I want to get better at is I tend to make these big resolutions and then not stick to them and then feel really bad about myself. So one thing I think is just kind of good advice, generally speaking, is that you be realistic about your resolutions.

So you don't want them to be too slight, like maybe just candy. I mean, if you just want to do that, that's great. But I also think you want to, at least for me, I want to be careful not to make them too grandiose because I know myself. So I want to be consistent. I don't want to be giving them that on Sundays. I mean, you can do what you want. I mean, the thing is you have to obey the church's rules on fasting, but anything in addition to that, that you impose upon yourself is a self-imposed fast. And what is self-imposed can be self, what do you say, relieved or something. You're not sinning, right? By breaking your fast. But yeah, so I think I'm going to be kind of consistent in something small, maybe no alcohol and no YouTube and even no podcasts. I think those three things I might do.

And that might not seem like a big deal, but it's pretty big for me. Like when I travel, I really listen to podcasts as a way to distract myself. Like it's really a way to, I don't like being alone with myself. I don't like sitting down. It is a way of numbing, I've noticed for me. And I think a lot of people say, well, it's a way I educate myself as well, right? I'm listening to these really good theological podcasts or something, which is true, I'm sure. But for me, I've noticed it's a way to sort of just, it's entertainment for me. So I think that might be something I'm going to look at giving up.

I think too, like that's a good disposition to approach penitential seasons because it's not like, you know, you have the ordinary year during which you indulge your every whim, and then you have penitential seasons during which you deny yourself certain good things. It's rather that throughout the course of the year, we're supposed to have a spirit of penance because penitence is a virtue. If it's a virtue, then it's given at baptism, and that it's something to be cultivated and something that grows up alongside the other virtues. So it's always the case that we are sinners and we need to atone for our sins. And it's always the case that our desires are disordered and we need to, by grace, reorder them in Christ.

So what does a penitential season afford us the opportunity for? Well, it's to intensify the spirit of penitence. And so I think that to approach Lent with the disposition not that I'm going to add something which I will immediately slough off at the end of Lent with the disposition, not that I'm going to add something which I will immediately slough off at the end of Lent, but rather that I'll add something so as to intensify a penitential spirit and that can kind of maybe reorient my penance come Easter. So yeah, you might like give up alcohol during the course of Lent, but then when you return to drinking alcohol on Easter, it's not like, let the bacchanalian revels begin, let's go. You do that with the hope that it's kind of infused the rule of reason and the law of

God more perfectly into your life and your members, so that when you return to drink in Easter, you're able to look at it with a greater spirit of enjoyment and detachment, you know, with just like a kind of more sober sense of what's good for you. I think that's just a decent disposition with which to approach it. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. What's your opinion on when people sort of are giving up certain things for various reasons, right? So they want to get thin because they think they look bad naked and they'd like to look better naked. And so they say, I'm going to give up like bread. I'm going to give up, I'm only going to eat like keto, right? That's the new thing apparently, right? Or paleo. What's your opinion on things like that? Should we be fasting with ulterior

motives and they can go alongside each other nicely or should we really be trying to fast for the sake of growing closer to God and that alone? So I think we shouldn't be scandalized when we do things that aren't entirely pure in their motivation. So it's like, all right, I want to be pure in my motivation. I want to have pure intentions. Let's go. I want to be pure in my motivation. I want to have pure intentions. Let's go, you know, and then you give it a shot and you find that it's not especially pure, that your intention is somewhat mixed. And you're like, oh, man, I am so discouraged by the fact that I am a bum. Would that I were not a bum. And it's like, well, you know, kind of get over it, I suppose, because so we're born bad, but it is to say that all of our desires are somewhat inflamed or like more impassioned than they were originally intended to be. And they're just a bit disorderly. So we're inclining towards all kinds of goods in a kind of chaotic way. And the whole point of like virtue is to re-institute or to reintegrate our interior life in such a way that

we can desire well and desire, you know, like kind of work towards a pure motivation. But I think that's something that will only be consummated in heaven. So on the one hand, you know, fasting is a good thing. On the other hand, dieting is a good thing. And you don't fast for the purpose of dieting, but you can fast alongside dieting without feeling guilty about it, right? And I think that a helpful way to understand this is to think about different kinds of virtues. I just want to take a quick moment to say, if you become a patron today over at patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, you will, for this Lent, get access to Thomas Aquinas' Meditations for Lent.

These are meditations that he actually wrote for every day of Lent. I have not only offered the text, but you will get to listen to them. I've recorded them, put Gregorian chant under them. The music sounds way better than this stuff. What is this stuff? I don't know. But you will absolutely love it, and it'll be a great way to prepare for Lent, and it'll be a great way to support all this ministry work that we're doing. Go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. You'll get access to that and a ton other things. other things. That's not a good sentence. Ton of other, there's a ton of other things that you'll get access to like beer steins and stickers and signed books and a whole lot else besides. So go become an awesome person at patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. So there are acquired virtues and there are infused virtues. And St. Thomas teaches that you can have acquired temperance,

and you can have infused temperance, and that they can actually coexist side by side. And one of the reasons he thinks that there's a need for these virtues is because they have a different mean. So, you know, like St. Thomas talks about how virtue's in the mean. So if, you're being courageous, you're not being cowardly on the one hand, but you're also not being rash. When it comes to being temperate, the typical standard for normal acquired temperance is you want to be healthy, right? So you don't want to overindulge, but you don't want to be insensate. And so you go towards the middle, and dieting would be something like that, you know, kind of going towards the middle and looking towards food and drink with an eye towards bodily health. But then when it comes to infused temperance, what's the point of infused temperance? Well, it's to be hungry for the Lord Jesus Christ, right? So it

has a more kind of theological dynamism at work in it. So you're not so much thinking about like, all right, I don't want to be too fat and I don't want to be too skinny, or I don't want to over indulge or I don't want to be insensate. You're kind of thinking like, I want to be like St. Francis, you know, kind of like starved to my crazy bones, but wildly alive for the Lord. And mind you, you're not going to kill yourself. But fasting, which may not be sensible according to one standard of acquired temperance, can actually be very sensible according to a standard of infused temperance. So I think that there are different reasons that go on in our minds and our hearts and that we, you know we sift among them, and we try to love the Lord as best we can, as best as He gives us grace to do. But yeah, you can't be thrown for a loop by

the fact that we want to be skinnier, we want to have better skin, or we want whatever you want. Yeah, well, that's good. That's a nice kind of compassionate response. A couple of years ago, when everybody was doing Whole30, if you're familiar with that sort of challenge where you don't eat any grains or sugar, I did that. And I remember thinking that this was kind of spiritually beneficial as well, because every day I had to deny myself many of the things that I wanted and that I would turn to out of boredom or just to make myself feel good. And so it kind of made me aware of how I was doing kind of spiritually during that day. Yeah, I think that like fasting has a great benefit of actually making us aware of how very often we are sad, or lonely, or anxious,

or whatever, you know, because, because oftentimes we eat and drink for fear of what would happen were we not to eat or drink. Somebody was telling me about an Onion article the other day, where it's like, clock turns 1045, man says, forget it and eats lunch, you know, I think they may have used another word. But so like, you know, there's a point that comes, you know, late to mid morning for practically every human being where you're like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it to lunch, you know, I just don't know if I'm gonna make it. And the way that the way that that kind of rises in your mind and heart is as a form of terror, You know, it's like an animal terror. It's not you don't think like, you know, I could use a few calories right now just to take the edge off so I could work more

efficiently. You're just like, I'm going to die. You know, it's not it's not a sensible response. And I think that the disorder that's at work in our in our members has a way of just kind of fulminating or fomenting this spirit of chaos or this spirit of freaking out. And by fasting, we take a kind of distance from the goods of the earth and we say like, hey, hey, you know, you're good, you know, but just like chill out for a second so I can sort out my interior life and just be more recollected. So that when I'm hungry, you know, I'm like, OK, ultimately what I'm hungry for is God. Now, mind you, I'm still hungry for food, but I don't need to freak out about this. Or, you know, when you're like in company with people with whom you're a bit uncomfortable and you're like, I wish I could really just drink right now so I could relax and not worry about how all of the things that I'm saying are being received by those present.

But you're like, you know what? Maybe I just need to work, work on being a better listener, being more attentive, not asserting myself as much, or dominating conversation, things like that. So I think fasting has that really beneficial effect of just making you more conscious of the ways in which you ordinarily comport yourself, which may not be healthy. Yeah. Now, generally, I think when the saints talk about fasting, we're talking about fasting from food. And one of the things I will do in a moment is take a look at the three reasons Aquinas gives to fast or the benefits of fasting. But to your point, I wonder if today fasting from technology might even be in some ways more beneficial because whereas maybe in Aquinas' day or even 30 years ago, we would turn to food when we were uncomfortable or bored. I think now maybe technology has replaced that. Obviously, we have a greater desire for food than technology. If you

starve a man, he's not going to want to go on email. But most of us aren't walking around who are starving. I think we do turn to technology kind of more than food. We just pull out our phone and scroll down to see if a new email has come in, and we don't even know why we're doing that. So what do you think about that? What do you think about someone who's like, yeah, I think this slant, I'm not going to fast from any kind of food except for meat on Fridays, but I'm going to fast from technology.

Yeah, I mean, what you describe sounds describe sounds, sounds spot on. It like sounds super sensible. Because when you think about food and drink, we're talking about those things that are that are most basic. We're talking about those things that we need in the most fundamental sense. But technology also, it addresses other fundamental needs in the emotional or in the spiritual order. So what do we need, we need to be connected to other human beings because when we feel especially lonely or when we feel unseen, it can be really isolating. I know that a lot of people like the book, The Moviegoer by Walker Percy. He won a National Book Award for it. But, you know, it's a story of a guy who goes to movies and he has the sense that the actors in the movies are important because they're seen, because people

buy tickets and come to movie theaters to see them, whereas he himself feels unimportant because he feels unseen. But then the moral transformation that goes on in his life, and I'm just cribbing this interpretation from a friend, is that he comes to recognize that he's seen by God. So I think technology has a way of making one feel seen or known or loved or heard, and it, um, it attends to that basic instinctual instinctual desire for community, for, for communion and friendship. And then also it attends to our desire just to be entertained because there is nothing so harrowing as your own thoughts or the recognition that your own thoughts are uninteresting or that you have no one with whom to share your own thoughts because

you've closed yourself off from God. I think like what you were talking about, giving up podcasts. I recently made a similar decision because I found that I was, it was kind of encroaching on the contemplative dimension of my life. Like I wasn't as content just to be in the presence of the Lord. I was starting to think of my life in terms of efficiency. And so like I'd be on the metro and I'd be like anxious, you know, like because I wasn't like I'll have to pray a rosary right now or listen to a podcast. But it's like, no, like I'm given on the metro and I'd be anxious because I wasn't like, I'll have to pray a rosary right now or listen to a podcast.

But it's like, no, I'm giving to the Lord right now. I'm giving to these people in this car. And if they want to chat, that's great. I'll be delighted. But at the very least, I can think of the Lord Jesus. So yes. No, that is really important. We do talk a lot these days about efficiency and side hustles and productivity.

these days about efficiency and side hustles and productivity. And we maybe forget that we need to balance that out with contemplation and leisure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ultimately, like, you should be comfortable in your own skin. And if the thought of an unstructured afternoon is oppressive or perilous for you, it's like, Ooh, you know, why is that the case? Or if, or if Sunday keeps getting filled with work for reasons that you can't adequately describe, you know, it's why is that the case? Or if you keep working in the evenings, um, and that's kind of encroaching on your time with your family or your time with your friends, like, Ooh, you know, why is that the case? And so Lent could be a good time to ask those questions more intentionally, intentionally and deliberately, and to take a little distance from one of those aspects of life, which is really

efficiency driven. Yeah. Yeah. And then are you pretty good at like being sort of self-controlled over, you said you made that decision not to listen to podcasts. Are you pretty self-controlled when it comes to that? Or do you need to kind of delete that thing from your phone and sort of have an accountability partner with even little small things like this? Yeah. Okay. So this is just, what am I actually doing? For me, I was listening to podcasts at every juncture. So anytime I got in a car, I was listening to a podcast. And every time I exercised, I was listening to a podcast. And so I didn't make a thoroughgoing rule that I will never listen to podcasts ever again. Um, but I did make the decision not to like listen to podcasts on short car rides.

And, um, also I was finding it difficult to make time to call friends, which is to say, I was finding it difficult to be a normal human being, which is always a bad sign. And so, you know, I, I'm still kind of, I'm still a little bit in the efficiency hustle because I'm still making use of the time in the car to call friends. Um, so that kind of like a lays my anxious mind, but I'm just trying to afford space where I'm, I'm just quiet in the car and where I'm quiet, you know, um, you know, exercising in as much as one can be quiet when, when he's on a rowing machine. So I didn't delete the app from my phone. I still have it there. And I still listen to podcasts,

especially with some TI travel, I do long trips. So, you know, going to Princeton, this, you know, for a conference, and that's, that's eight hours in the car. And if I, you know, like, that's a long time. And, you know, I would, I would love to be of the kind of stern temperament and disposition where I could be abandoned to the Lord without kind of fretting, but I just, podcasts are good and that's a good way to spend the time. So yeah, I think about it in those terms. How do you think the secular culture views fasting? Because I think it was Fulton Sheen who said, whenever the church throws something down, the culture picks it up. Whether that be prayer beads, right, or meditation, or a sense of being mindful, or minimalistic, or fasting even. You know, you're seeing more and more people.

I think I remember like 15 years ago beginning to see that Protestants were talking about Lent a lot more and the importance of fasting. more and the importance of fasting. Whereas I'm not sure if this was a big thing in the evangelical communities prior, I don't know, to a little while back. But does the culture have a view of fasting that we shouldn't too quickly adopt? What's the important difference that you see that we don't want to fall into? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, um, so I have some like various thoughts that are a little bit, um, scatterbrained, but then maybe cobble together a theory at the end of it. So you hear fasting in different contexts, one of which is in the weightlifting community to which I do not pertain because I'm among the skinniest men on earth. Um, but I was talking to a guy, a guy who has a podcast, um, named Pat Flynn, and he

does a lot of stuff with, I guess they're called kettlebells or something like that. Yep. And, um, so he's, he's really, you know, he's really knowledgeable about it and he's written a couple of books about it, but he also does, you know, uh, philosophy and theology stuff and he's really passionate about that too. So he's really, really interesting guy. And, um, I was, he was was he was apparently he wrote a book on periodic fasting, which I didn't really understand the purpose of which until he explained it a

little bit. And then I had another conversation. But sometimes it's, you know, it's, I guess it's good to fast in order to bulk up, right? So you tell your body, you're not going to get any food for a while. And then when you do get food, your body just like freaks out. It's like, let's just store all this up for the winter, because I don't know how long it's going to be before I get my next meal. Is this like intermittent fasting? Is that the same thing? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think I just used the wrong word. Um, so a similar logic is employed sometimes by runners too, who will quote unquote carbo load made famous by, uh, the office episode. I think it's at the beginning of season four. My nipples are chafing. You remember that? Andy? Yeah,

I was just pumped that Pam and Jim were together. So, um, so yeah, you have to, you have to deny yourself food for a while so that when you introduce all these complex carbohydrates, your body gobbles them up, stores them up, and then they, you know, slow release over the course of the next day. So I think that you have this on the one hand, and then I think there's also an appreciation in the secular culture for the fact that our minds can get messed up. Um, so you talk about rewiring your brain or forging new neural pathways. So, and a lot, you see a lot of this in like positive psychology and self-help literature. So positive psychology, like Martin Seligman, it focuses on the fact that a lot of psychology was typically taken up with psychoses. So psychology was myopically or like nearsightedly focused on the things that were bad. And so it wanted to start talking about the things that were good. And, you know, it employs some brain science for the purpose of forming healthy habits. And it's big into like gratitude, appreciation and saying the things about your life that are true so that you can abide in that truth. But part of it too is that, you know, you can rewire your brain. So by virtue of what you think, you can actually forge new neural pathways. So there's, okay, blah, blah,

blah. Those are two- It's fascinating stuff for sure. Yeah. But those are two instances in which the secular culture has an appreciation for the purpose of fasting. But I think in all of those instances, fasting doesn't have, so it's just got an embodied dimension, right? So the fasting is for the perfection of the bodily form. But I don't think that the secular culture has any real facility with making the transition from the material to the immaterial, because for the most part, it doesn't really admit the existence of the immaterial. But for us, like the primary purpose for which we fast is so that we get more spiritually hungry or we get more recollected in our spiritual hunger. Because the fact is that we are hungry for God, but rarely do we acknowledge it.

Because there's a different logic at work with material goods and then with spiritual goods. Because with material goods, you know, when you first have them, they're very delightful, right? And they afford you great comfort and distraction. them, they're very delightful, right? And they afford you great comfort and distraction. But then if you keep indulging in them, the quality of those enjoyments tends to decline. Whereas with spiritual goods, at first, they're very, very difficult, right? Almost forbidding. Like the first time you try to pray for any extended period, you're like, I am so distracted. I will now make a mental list of all of the tasks that I will perform immediately upon leaving this church. But then as you commit

to it, right, as God gives you the grace to come back and come back and come back, you find that it affords great, great, great spiritual delight. And so instead of depreciation, depreciating, it actually appreciates. But you need to take a critical distance from those material goods in order to acquire the savor of the immaterial goods. And so for us, fasting is always something that's hylomorphic, right? Or that's like both material and immaterial. So we take a kind of stance, a critical stance towards material goods, but with an eye towards affirming immaterial goods. Whereas it seems the secular culture can only really conceive of it in material terms. You

intermittently fast so that you can bulk up or you, you know, take a... Right. The payoff is material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or is it material or is it immaterial but under a different name? I could see someone saying becoming, you know, being better able to concentrate or clearing my mind. Yeah, I mean, they might say that. I don't know what people would say because I don't know what people say.

But yeah, I mean, people could certainly put it in those terms, you know, to clear your mind. And you see this with like mindfulness, right, or centering prayer. There are some kind of spiritual dimensions to the culture for which people have an appreciation. But oftentimes those things tend to evacuate your mind, right? They don't really, they're not centered on something transcendent, right? They're kind of about you being present to you. And the best version you can be. It's very much about you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think they end up being egotistical. We're like with the sense with Christian fasting is that the purpose for which

you live is not so that you can have a svelte body, right? You should like think of St. Francis of Assisi who, when he died, you know, they laid his body, his battered body on the ground outside of the Port Siankula. He was blind at the time from such copious weeping. And his frame was just devastated. I mean, his like his habit at the time was cheesecloth. And, you know, his last words are let us begin for up until now we have done nothing. I'm not like advocating that we should destroy our bodies or we should just pine after the feats of medieval saints who are able to do such crazy things. But I think that we would do well to be maybe like a little more hard on our bodies. Because the secular culture says pamper, pamper it, pamper it, pamper it, you know, for sure, for sure, for sure. So we just we lose the capacity to endure difficulty. And there's a lot of difficulties in life and fasting is one of those ways that we're

prepared to do so. So, you know, I get another idea kind of to that point about the fact, you know, to your point about fasting, not necessarily being for the body looking better. You know, one of the things you could fast from is strenuous exercise. Like I'm somebody who goes to CrossFit three times a week, right? And like you said about yourself, I'm certainly, I wouldn't consider myself in shape. I go there and I'm almost the worst one every time, but it certainly clears my head and I feel a lot better. But it ends up being about two hours away from my family. I could see someone making the decision, okay, instead of that, I'm going to sit with my family and I'll go for a run. So you're not kind of being irresponsible.

You're still exercising, but, or even saying, I'm going to eat, I'm going to, I'm going to eat bread. You know, like maybe at the end of this fast, you'll be fatter because you weren't as rigid about your paleo or whatever diet that makes life difficult for your family. I could see something like that happening too, you know, where you fast from something that you indulge in that the world congratulates you for, but you could trade in that time to do something more meaningful and maybe at the end of Lent,

you've packed on the pounds a little bit more, but that could be a good thing too. Yeah, I think it's certainly worthwhile to entertain those options just because they break us out of picking something for the good of our bodies and then rationalizing it with a spiritual reason. So there was a Franciscan friar at Steubenville who died just before I got to school named Father Gus. And I think one Lent he gave up not smoking.

Gave up not smoking. Gave up not smoking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So, yeah, at Steubenville there were only a few acceptable rebellious things. You know, you get tattoos, you smoke cigarettes, stuff like that. So, like a lot of people smoked. And I guess he just didn't understand why people smoked or he had no real sympathy for it. So, as a way of, you know, casting his lot with

the students and in solidarity with them, he gave up not smoking for Lent, which is interesting. I'm not advocating for that. No, it is interesting. Sure. Yeah. But it's certainly, it breaks up the logic of, you know, pick something that you want to do for you and then call it something that you want to do for Jesus. Rather think, think about crazy, just entertain wild options and just see, see what the Lord Jesus is kind of stirring up in your heart, maybe just to break up – yeah, just to break up a logic that may be somewhat self-deceptive. Yeah, that's really good. I like that. What do you think about – I think many people choose several things.

Then every week they kind of pick it back up and they're like, well, I've still got those three things. I've still got that one thing. I still got that one thing. I'm still not using the phone on the crapper. That's what I've got left for the rest of these days. So do you think, as we said earlier in the show, it's good to be modest maybe or at least we should choose things in accordance with what we think we can actually fulfill with the grace of God for sure. But we're still working with our fallen and weak human nature. And then I guess the other question would be, we don't want to be bragging about what we're giving up,

but sometimes it really helps people to tell others what they're giving up or taking on so that they will be faithful to them. It almost kind of like concretizes it, if that's a word. I remember when I was a kid at school, we would write down what we were going to fast from, and then everyone in the school would throw the paper in a fire or something. I forget what kind of weird ritual they came up with. But the point was, it felt like, okay, now it's beginning. It's sort of like the start of a new year where it's like, three, two, one, okay, now I'm not going

to eat bad or whatever. Yeah, that was a lot. but I guess like telling other people what you've given up. So yeah. So I think as concerns commitments, I think we can only do so many things as we can remember. This is sage counsel from a friend as regards new year's resolutions. Cause this new year I was like, all right, I'm going to do X, Y, Z. I'm going to do ABC. I'm going to do like, you know, blah, blah, blah, this and such. And this person was like, yeah, that, that might all be good, but you might just want to pick a couple because if you can't remember them, if you can't keep them before your mind's eye, then it's going to become like a series of tasks at work that you do when you sit down in your cubicle, like, okay, I need to like, you know, load up

Squarespace and update the website for the day. And I need to check the social media feeds and I need to respond to all the emails and I need to check the social media feeds, and I need to respond to all the emails, and I need to do, you know, but like you have, it becomes like you're working through a checklist of tasks to be done when you want to be able to hold all these things in your heart simultaneously because they're part of a relationship. So ultimately, like, the spirit that informs these disciplines is, Lord Jesus, I love you, but I recognize the fact that I love you somewhat imperfectly and somewhat selfishly, and I desire to love you more perfectly and less selfishly by your grace. And it seems that, you know, you've made it known to me that these

are ways by which to go about it, and you can kind of hold them all together in one embrace. So I think my general sensibility is that three is a good number. I have the same sensibility when it comes to like praying to saints. I have, I pray to St. Thomas Aquinas, to St. Dominic and St. Therese. That's about it. And, you know, special things might come up. You might have somebody, you know, suffering from cancer and you pray to a servant of God, Rupert Hawthorne or St. Peregrine, or you might have somebody who's trying to conceive and you pray to St. Gerard Magella or, you know, special things might make it the case that you pray to certain saints. But I really only pray to a few. And that's, it's kind of like the same logic with best friends. You know, you have certain best

friends with whom you share basically everything and you can only really have so many of them. So I think that, yes, it's good just to pick a few. Three is not a dogmatic number. It could be one, it could be two, it could be three, it could be, you know, four or five, whatever. But I think that's a, that's a good-ish number. And, um, I think it also is good to share it with a couple of friends. So there are certain people before whom you are entirely honest and before whom you do not boast. And, um, you can give them an accurate self narration of your life because you don't feel like you need to impress them, nor do you feel like you need to be falsely humble because you're worried about them thinking you prideful, blah, blah, blah, all these things. And so you can, you can tell those people,

you know, I, I agreed to do, I give a podcast, you know, to give up YouTube and I agreed to, you know, not exercise with the same frequency or different, different kind of exercise. And the person would be like, cool. All right. Do you want me to say anything about that ever? Kind of bring it up with you in conversation. You can be like, no, cause I'll feel judged or yes, because I'm lazy. And you can kind of establish the grounds at that point as to what the, what the accountability looks like. So I think, yeah, I think it's profitable to have those conversations, but I don't think it is profitable to have the conversations with everyone you meet, you know, so you see somebody like toddling along down the street that like, how are you like terrible day should have never undertaken my technology fast because it's destroying me.

I mean, I don't know if you lose all your merit, but certainly this Holy Souls in Purgatory that would have gotten sprung. Come on. Yeah, exactly. Like, bro, come on. Yeah, they might not be entirely pleased. So that's my general sense, I think. Yeah, I like that. Very good.

And then, okay, one more question. Obviously, we've already talked about taking things on instead of giving things up. But I remember several years ago hearing people say, you know what? It was a new idea. Instead of giving things up, you could take something on. As soon as I heard someone say that, I'm like, I bet that's not a good idea for a reason I haven't yet conceived. Whenever people come up with a new idea like that, I'm like, maybe you should just give something up. Maybe that's what you should do.

Again, this might even lend more to the productivity thing where it's like this desire to do more and to do more as opposed to remove more so that I can be in more of a contemplative state. Now, obviously, there's nothing wrong taking something on, but any thoughts on that? I have a couple of thoughts. I think it depends on what type of person you are. In a pastoral ministry class, we were assigned St. Gregory the Great's Pastoral Rule, and the whole, I think it's the whole third book, he just goes through different types of people, and he'll say, if you're prideful, do this, but if you're falsely humble, do this, or if you're insensate, do this, or if you're overindulgent, do this. And so I think, I think what you do is tailored to your temperament. So there are some people, right, who are lazy, or who are slothful, or

slothful, depending on how you pronounce it. So there's some people who look at the divine good, and they just get sad, because it seems unattainable to them. Or maybe you're a doctoral student in your fifth year of studies, and you just keep taking on more and more teaching commitments at the university, because the thought of finishing your dissertation is oppressive because it's so lofty and arduous. And so you're just kind of frittering away time doing small tasks. Or say you're a mother of nine or 10 who is also a, you know, like you're also a lawyer and you work for the Catholic Association. You've got all these different kinds of things on your plate. I think what you do will just depend on what your life looks like. Some people have the bandwidth to take things on, and some people do not. I think that what we should all kind of have in mind is

the relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and an attempt to intensify it, so to make it more dynamic, to be recollected in our dependence upon the Lord, to be more zealous in our consent to and cooperation with the graces that he gives. So, yeah, it will just look different for every life. So if you're just kind of like toddling along or waddling through life, not doing too terribly much, it might be time to commit to 20 minutes of prayer a day. Lent might be the time to commit to 20 minutes of prayer a day. But if you're praying 20 minutes a day and you're a mother of 10 and working as a lawyer, then it may not be time to take on 40 minutes of prayer a day. That might be when you're 65 and all your kids are moved out and you're like, whoa, you know, I live this hyperproductive life and now I have this big hole, an empty nest. What do I do with it?

But now might be the time where you, you know, give up podcasts in the car, right? Or you give up alcohol or something like that, you know? So I think it just, that's a long way of saying it. Yeah, no, that's good. I heard someone say recently that whenever you make a new year's resolution, because we're not far from the new year, I think they said something like, you should decide what you will do, like exactly what you will do when you fail, the first time you fail. I think that's really good because we have this sort of grand idea, okay, 2020, I'm going to finally do this. And you do a great job for three weeks and then you stumble and crash and burn.

And the temptation for all of us is just to throw the towel in. And obviously our goal with the great fast ought to be to be faithful to the fasts we impose upon ourselves. But it might be good too to realize that if you fall, just to keep pressing forward. Yeah.

And that's a good kind of icon of the spiritual life in general. I remember reading Searching for and Maintaining Peace by Jacques Philippe. Great book. I need to read that again. It's such a beautiful book. Maybe if you haven't read that, you can read that for Lent. It's only like 100 pages and it's like a pamphlet size. But he says that something about Christian saints, and this is a paraphrase, and it won't be as beautiful as what he writes, but he says the saint is not so much the one who doesn't fall as the one who falls, but in getting up is not distressed, right? Who

does so with a kind of peace and composure, not because he's smug and self-satisfied and doesn't want other people to think that he's fallen, but because he knows that this is what human beings do. You know, they fall, and the Lord Jesus gives grace whereby to repair the relationship, to mount up on wings of eagles, to walk and not faint, to run and not grow weary. And so you can have a kind of, yeah, you can have a kind of serenity or peace in the fact that God is enough, even if I am not. And I think that, yeah, that Lent should communicate that same logic. It should work that logic into your members. So I think that failure,

while it is subjectively satisfying to carry out your resolve with perfection, that might not be the most spiritually fruitful thing for you. Because if you're tempted to a kind of perfectionism, which is actually inimical to your dependence upon God for everything, then maybe it's a time to endeavor something where you know there will be a few failures because it's already baked into your schedule, or you just know that you're forgetful of these things. That's fine. That's good. So resolve to do it, decide what happens when you fail, and then rely upon the Lord to give you what you need. Yeah, that's a great point. Maybe before we look at these three reasons to fast from Thomas Aquinas, why don't we suggest some things people could do? People are out there, they're not really sure what they could do. I'm just bringing this on the two of us, but what could maybe be some creative ways that they could fast this Lent? Or what are some things maybe that you've heard that you thought, oh, that was a cool idea? Yeah.

that you've heard that you thought, that was a cool idea. I'm thinking, here's a couple of things I would suggest, just off the top of my head. One would be, you really can make your smartphone a dumb phone. My wife, I made her put in a passcode into my setting somehow so that I can't download apps. And so I deleted the app store. And the only way to get the app store again

is to have her put that code in. And so then I've got this phone with these apps and whatever I delete, I can't bring back unless I sit down on the couch with her and have her type the thing in again. My point is, you can do something like that. For all of lunch, you might delete everything that could access the internet.

Delete your email app off your phone and only check email from your desktop delete your podcast app uh delete even blocks you know safari and things like that just to sort of simplify your life that could be one way you know something else you could do is like when you get into the car like putting your putting something as simple this is really really really simple but like putting your phone in your glove compartment so you're not tempted just to check it when you're at a stoplight yeah that's excellent honestly for one lent i i stopped bringing my phone to the bathroom with me and i know that's embarrassing and sounds silly but if you're someone who does it all the time that's actually not as silly maybe as it sounds um but those would be a few options they all have to do with technology i guess but

what about you what are some things you'd suggest? So one thought is driving the speed limit, which is kind of infuriating. Yeah. Yeah. And depending on the setting, it might be infuriating to people on the road with you. So you wouldn't want to do that. Not the fast lane. Yeah, exactly. So to drive the speed limit, which makes you more recollected in the fact that you

should prepare adequately for, you know, getting to from, afford enough time and do so in a way that's not rushed and anxious. Another one is to show up five minutes early for mass. A lot of people don't find this especially difficult, but to privilege showing up for – if you go to daily mass or if you just Sunday mass, uh, just a privilege showing up just five minutes early and then reading the readings before mass starts. So over the course of Lent, maybe there are, you know, six, seven Sundays. That's, that's fairly straightforward, not too onerous or burdensome. Uh, but it's something very concrete that you can do to be more recollected. And another thing would be unitasking. Um, so if you're accustomed to listen to music or podcasts while driving or while exercising to give them up maybe during the weekdays or maybe for the entirety of Lent, um, and then as, as Easter rolls around to do so less frequently. So when you reincorporate it into

your life, just to reincorporate it with the kind of, um, yeah, suspicion of what might come if you were to be hyper-efficient at all times. So, yeah, suspicion of what might come if you were to be hyper efficient at all times. So, yeah, and that can apply to when you're walking from point A to point B, you know, don't check your phone when you're driving from point A to point B, maybe, you know, fewer podcast music, calling people on the telephone, there's stuff like that. But just, yeah, kind of focus on unit tasking with the idea that you're trying to be present to the Lord. Yeah, I like that a lot. That's really good. All right, let's look at these three reasons we fast, or at least the benefits of it.

Just for those at home, let's do them real quick, and then we could delve into them if you want. First, in order to bridle the lusts of the flesh. Secondly, we have recourse to fasting in order that the mind may arise more freely to the contemplation of heavenly things. And thirdly, in order to satisfy four sins. Where do you want to start at the top? Let's do it. Yeah, let's go. It's funny, I think Aquinas has this unscientific idea that meat somehow leads to sexual thoughts or lust, because he mentions that here a little bit,

and then at a different point where he talks about nocturnal emissions, he says that one of the causes of that might be that we ate too much meat. I don't know if he's maybe using the language differently to how I am reading it, or if he just... Yeah, I don't know. My kind of educated guess, based on my own experience, is that so St. Thomas would not have eaten meat in his convent. He would have only eaten it if he were sick, right? Or if he were especially weak. So there's a monastic tradition of not eating meat, and the purpose of which is to kind of remain sharp.

And I think we recognize this too sometimes. Like when you eat meat for lunch, sometimes you feel a little bit slow for the rest of the afternoon. Like you have to take a nap in order to recover. But if you eat a kale salad or drink a naked juice or whatever, you know, just have a bean medley, then you're like rip-roaring and ready to go. So I think that meat causes a kind of torpor. That's not to say that it's bad but i think i think we recognize this generally that it's better to have for dinner than it is to have for lunch because at dinner you're winding down whereas at lunch you're you still have the bulk of the day before you so i think he's trying to make the connection between torpor of soul and then unchastity so like when you're sad when you're feeling slow when you're feeling kind of overwhelmed and just not at the top of your game, you might be more likely to indulge in thoughts or actions that would be unchaste.

So that's that's my kind of I mean, best best guess at what he's describing. I mean, he cites some, you know, like gods in the description. Venus is cold when Saris and Bacchus are not there, from Jerome, I guess. So, I mean, he's clearly doing this in an interpretive spirit that doesn't apply the logic strictly. But I think, yeah, I think that there is something to be said for the fact that food, drink, and sexual appetites are bound up together. That's what temperance principally bridles, because those are the things that are most instinctual, because by food and drink, we preserve our own individual life, and by sexual intercourse, we preserve the life of our species. And so it makes sense that we would have very,

very keen inclinations to these things. And so if left unchecked or if left unbridled, they can get unruly and kind of can go a bit crazy. And so as a result of which, we restrain our desire for food and drink precisely so as to restrain our desire for sexual intercourse and then afford a space in the heart for other good things. I can see how fasting helps with lust and I can also see how it hurts. And I mean that in legitimate senses. So if, like I've heard someone say, I think it was Christopher West, if you cannot say no to that next Oreo cookie, how will you learn to say no to the temptation to click on that thing that just popped up or what have you? And that's a great point.

Like if I'm not disciplined, if I can't say no to smaller pleasures, it's going to be difficult to say no to larger, more enticing pleasures. So I can see that. That makes sense to me. But I also think that if I'm right in thinking that the reason we turn to masturbation or pornography or what have you is to soothe ourselves, to soothe our interior kind of emotional state. And I think that really is a big part of the majority of why we do it, then giving up legitimate pleasures that could then cause agitation, I could see could lead someone to be more tempted. This is why I've always said from the beginning, as great as Exodus 90 is, and I would recommend men do it, if somebody's

legitimately addicted to pornography, then giving up healthy soothers like a warm shower or a drink of with of wine at dinner or um you know a movie in the evening with your wife or something you know that that could be just sort of not that helpful uh and i and i some so i i think sometimes if somebody is addicted to say pornography then it would perhaps be better for them to give up those activities that when they engage in them, it leads to acting out. So I've never kind of, you know, had a nice meal, including meat and went, I'm going to go masturbate now. But I could see somebody like cruising social media and their mind starts shutting off and they start clicking on people's photos they find attractive and they start clicking through and all of a sudden they're on a porn site, right? So I'm like, if somebody's

struggling with lust, I could say, I could see like, give up those activities where you're numbing, you know, and maybe that is things like alcohol, right? In which case, that would be a good reason to give that up. But yeah. I think there's a hierarchy of soothers as it were, or just a hierarchy of remedies for sorrow. So, you know, contemplation of truth and the company of friends are the highest ones. Uh, but, but, you know, like St. Thomas and that, that famous question, he, he affords for other ones, you know, like, like weeping or like taking a bath. Right. And then there's, you know, the other article in which he describes how wine can be delightful for the soul. So I think that, um, if, if, if one's inclination is always to go for base soothers, then that, you know, that's something that you kind of incorporate into your

thoughts and prayers on the matter, because you, you, you want to, you want to move up the hierarchy. You don't want to think like, okay, anytime I'm tempted, I eat a bunch because that can be, end up becoming a destructive tendency as well. Um, but you want it to to think like, okay, anytime I'm tempted, I eat a bunch because that can end up becoming a destructive tendency as well. But you want it to be more like, you know, if I have these temptations, then I appeal to other good things. But hopefully I appeal to my friends. I appeal to a contemplation of the truth. I go out for a run. I do whatever, you know, because if it's always just the most basic or always the most simple, then it itself can become, yeah, you can be addicted

to food then. I mean, it's just, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Right. And so we're not saying, well, you should get to a state where you no longer become agitated and nor are we saying, well, if you're agitated, you shouldn't seek to soothe, you know, and regulate. I think what we're saying is, as you say, there's this hierarchy of soothers and you should, the ideal would be if I feel agitated, like to talk with my wife or talk with a friend or engage in healthy ways of soothing, not kind of isolating and medicating. Yeah, that's the idea. Okay. So the second, he says, we fast in order that the mind may arise more freely to the contemplation of heavenly things. And he quotes Daniel 10, where Daniel received a revelation

after fasting for three weeks. In addition to what you've already said about how not overindulging in food can keep us more nimble and fresh intellectually, how does fasting help with this? So I think that, and we talked about this, how lower desires can be really clamorous. They can just be really loud and insistent. But by fasting, you put them in check, and then they learn to assume their proper place within the human organism. And then you're able to be more concentrated or attentive in prayer, in your reception and preparation for the sacraments and things like that. So I think that like – so Aristotle has this description.

I think it's in Book 10 of the Nicomachean Ethics, where he's talking about contemplation. And he says that man is more properly divine than he is human in a certain sense, because he can rise to the contemplation of divine things. And Pseudo-Dionysius picks up this principle that he finds in Plato, where he says that in the hierarchy of being, you know, you think there are like rocks and plants and animals and men, and there are angels. At each rank, the particular type of being under consideration, it almost attains to the height of the next higher type of being. So we almost attain to the height of angelic thinking when we have insights or intuitions that are especially profound and luminous. But in order to be contemplators of divine things, in order to

be almost angelic in our thoughts, we need to assume a kind of critical stance towards the base clamorous desires of the body. That's not to say you're getting out of the body because like it's a flesh cage, like Plato may have described, right? But it is to say that the body has a logic that can become all-consuming unless it's disciplined. And by fasting, we effectively discipline it. So, you know, we talk about asceticism from the word eschasis, which just means training. It's a kind of training of your body so that it can support the type of activities of mind, which are most constitutive of what it means to be a human person with a supernatural destiny who is called to know and to love, who is made to the image of God, and in whom that image of God can intensify by knowing and

loving with God's own knowledge and love of himself. So it means, yeah, for the mind to arise more freely to the contemplation of heavenly things, it means that the mind has to be kind of turned from its consuming thoughts of earthly things. But then that's not as easy as it sounds, is it? Because I can give up, you know, lower things, and then I might just become obsessed with those lower things. That's true. If I give up alcohol and I'm constantly thinking about how I'm not allowed to drink alcohol and I think that kind of is how it is in the beginning. It's like that. I think too. It just depends on how long. So Lent's a good period of time. It's an especially wise period of time because it helps you to work things out of your system. And it just takes time to work things out of

your system. I'm sure there are sociological and psychological studies about how long it takes to work something out of your system. And it probably depends on the thing. You know, it's different, you know, quitting cigarettes and quitting heroin are different things. But at least initially, when you give something up, it's all consuming. I remember there was a friar who gave up coffee for Lent one time, and I was the infirmarian, which is like the nurseman. And he called me on Thursday, and he left this hilarious message saying that he was basically at death's door but not to worry about him because he would make it through. But then he was fine. He was fine maybe two days later. He had the expectation of receiving caffeine. He didn't deliver. His body rebelled against that. There was it was toxic. And then he just moved on. His body just moved on. So I think that there's going to be an upsurge in distractions, in obsession, right, in a kind of preoccupation with the thing, but then it will gradually dissipate as your body and your mind come to appreciate that this thing's not coming back, right? A new regime is in town, and this regime

seems to be intent upon the contemplation of divine things. All right, very good. And then thirdly, now this can sound sort of Pelagian, I think, in order to satisfy for sins. That's why we should fast. Yeah. And then who's this quote from down here? Augustine. He quotes Augustine, fasting cleanses the soul, raises the mind. And I mean, that's kind of number two there, raises the mind. Subjects one's flesh to the spirit. That's kind of number one. Renders the heart contrite and humble, scatters the clouds of concupiscence, quenches the fire of lust, kindles the true light of chastity. He's so much more inspiring than Aquinas, just prima facie, don't you think? He writes beautifully. He certainly writes beautifully. Makes it harder

to read at times because it's more involved, but it's certainly beautiful. So yeah, when it comes to satisfaction, there's a recognition too that we take on punishment willingly. So you start with the recognition that we sin and that sin merits punishment and that you can either suffer that punishment unwillingly or you can suffer it willingly. If you suffer it unwillingly, then it's going to take longer for it to kind of work itself out because what does God want? He wants your heart, right? He doesn't just want your body crushed. In fact, he doesn't give a rip about that.

What he wants is your heart, and the punishment is given so that our hearts might be drawn to him more perfectly. But the best way to bring that about is to unite our will to the will of the God who meets out punishment because he loves, right? So whose punishment is underwritten by his mercy. So when we adopt penances voluntarily, there's a recognition that I have contributed to the sin in the world. I myself have crucified the Lord Jesus, and I have to atone for that. And that punishment will either be meted out, you know, in God's sweet timing, or I can endeavor it now by His grace. So when you take it on, your heart is being turned towards the Lord more perfectly. You're atoning for those sins. You're working out the temporal punishment associated with them.

And you're beginning to live purgatory on earth so that you can rise more promptly to the vision of God in heaven when it comes time. So, yeah. What was that movie with Robert De Niro? Was it called The Mission? Yeah. Was that what it was called? Yep. And he was repenting for having killed Native Americans,

or maybe it wasn't Native Americans because maybe it was in Southern America. I forget. The reason I bring it up, though, is there's that beautiful moment where he carries all of those shields in a net, which he's dragging to the top of a mountain. And I just thought if you were to say to that character, do you think this is what's forgiving your sins? He would have very clearly said, no, it's Christ who does.

But that doesn't mean that I can't feel it by putting upon myself these penances. And it almost would have been a real tragedy if someone had said, you don't need to carry that to the top of the mountain because Jesus has already forgiven you. It's like, well, that's true, but you need to make it concrete in your own life. Yeah, that makes sense, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when we apologize to somebody, while it can be less uncomfortable if they were to say, like, oh, it's nothing, no big deal, doesn't matter.

We kind of want to be forgiven. We want to hear somebody say, I forgive you, right, or apology accepted. want to be forgiven. We want to hear somebody say, I forgive you, right? Or apology accepted. And then we want to be able to perform some act for them that shows that we mean it, right? And that we have atoned for the thing and that it won't happen again because this new logic of love has been written into our bodies by virtue of the fact that we've undertaken a penance. So yeah, I did this thing to you. I'm sorry. I did not intend to do it, but you know, I sinned and I did do it and I never want to do it again. And so in order to make it up to you, I want to do this thing. I want to undertake this task or I want to perform this service. And that's just

that there's, there's something about that. That's just, it's not, it's not just like psychologically satisfying. It's metaphysically satisfying. Like you feel it in the soles of your feet and the top from the soles of your feet to the top of your head, like I've been reconciled. And things are better now because I am at peace with, in concord with this other human being whom I offended. Right. And then as we wrap up here, let's just point out for the folks in the back that Sundays are absolutely 100% part of Lent. It's not like the church's calendar switches on Sundays. These are Sundays within Lent. It's not like the church's calendar switches on Sundays. These are Sundays within Lent

and you add or correct whatever you think needs to be added or corrected. So my advice would be Sundays are part of Lent, so don't say things like Sundays aren't part of Lent, so you don't need to fast, but also recognize that whatever you impose upon yourself, you can relieve from yourself without sinning. And so sure, if you want to not fast on Sundays, that's your decision. You can also not fast on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays if you want from that personal thing you've imposed upon yourself. But it might be cooler just to decide to give it up for the whole of Lent. Yeah, I think sometimes people don't count Sundays as Lent because when you add up the days,

the math doesn't quite work out. And it's like, wait, what's Lent? What's not Lent? Does the Triduum count? Do Sundays count? But the enumeration of the days of Lent historically for the past 2000 years has always been a little bit fuzzy. So it's like 40-ish days. And, you know, the church has kind of just thrown up her hands and said like, meh. Yeah. So I think it is good to perdure through Sundays. But, I mean, if your family or if your church or if your kind of local expression has the practice of relieving some of the stricture on Sundays, is it going to kill you, obviously, for the reasons that Matt said? No. But, yeah, I think it's good to do something that draws you to the Lord.

And why would you be less drawn to the Lord on a Sunday? Fantastic. Well, this has been really terrific. I think folks are going to find it really helpful. So thanks for all of your advice and cheers. Tell us quickly, let's do a plug for Godsplaining and the Thomistic Institute. Attaway.

Well, let's see. So Thomistic Institute, Hustle & Flow, Aquinas 101 is moving and grooving. We're about halfway through the course and videos continue to come out. So you can check those out at Aquinas101.com or on YouTube. Godsplaining is a podcast of the Dominican friars. And that is, I usually say that like the register for the Thomistic Institute podcast is like up here. And then Pints with Aquinas is just a little below. And then Godsplaining is like way below that. So the conversations are just kind of 30

minutes of hilarity once a week about all things Catholic. And so you'll hear about, you know, maybe philosophy, theology, arts, literature, culture, just kind of everyday things. For Lent, we're doing back to basics. So just talking about confession, mass, friendship, penance, the different kind of basic things for our Christian observance that we want to intensify during the season of Lent. And yeah, that's the skinny. That's what's up. All right. Well, thanks very much and chat with you next time. All right. Cheers. Until then. All right, everybody. Thank you very much for tuning into this week's episode of Pints with Aquinas. I hope you found it very helpful for the great fast, which is upon us. As I said, awkwardly in the middle of this episode,

we have these daily meditations for Lent that people have found very, very helpful. Every day you could listen to a three to five minute meditation written by St. Thomas Aquinas so that you can better prepare for Lent. Go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd to do that. Obviously, the reason I want you to do this is so it supports the apostolate. We're going to three different countries in Africa for free, taking materials, rosaries, books, proclaiming the word, helping them defend the faith. That goes to help that. All of this recording stuff, we're doing a lot on YouTube right now, and hopefully we'll get to the point where we're able to do four sit-down video recordings a month. So that'd be really exciting. All of this stuff obviously costs money. So anyway,

if you like this podcast, if it's helped you in any way, you can give back if you want. If you can't afford it, that's fine. But if you want to, go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, and that would really help the team out here as we try to do the best work we can. God bless. Thanks for listening. I hope you have a beautiful fast. Oh, next week, you can listen to my episode with Father Michael O'Loughlin from Catholic Stuff You Should Know. I flew him into Atlanta. We sat down and discussed orthodoxy, the Byzantine Church, Eastern Catholicism in general. Yeah, it was a really very, very, very interesting episode. And it may have got a little intense at a few points, but I think it was all good in the end.

So be sure to go check that out. All right, God bless. Bye.