Pints With Aquinas - 200: How to Love and Study the Bible w/ Dr. Andrew Swafford

Episode Date: April 7, 2020

I sit down with Dr. Andrew Swafford (well before the Coronavirus madness) to discuss the Bible, and how you can love it more. Andrew Swafford is Associate Professor of Theology at Benedictine College. He holds a doctorate in Sacred Theology from the University of St. Mary of the Lake and a master’s degree in Old Testament & Semitic Languages from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He is member of the Society of Biblical Literature, Academy of Catholic Theology, and a senior fellow at the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology. He lives with his wife Sarah and their five children in Atchison, KS. Thanks to our sponsors!!! EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints  Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  Subscribe to my channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClh4... 🔔 (make sure to hit the BELL icon to be notified of new videos!) 🎧Listen to The Matt Fradd Show podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... 📖Get my book "Does God Exist?" here: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist... 🍺Support me on Patreon (Thank you!): https://patreon.com/mattfradd Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: http://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: Working on it.

G'day, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. Today we are joined around the bar table by Dr. Andrew Swofford, who is the Associate Professor of Theology at Benedictine College in Kansas. We are going to talk about sacred scripture, the Bible timeline, how you and I can begin to love scripture more. If you're like me, you're someone who knows that you should love scripture. Maybe you have a desire to love scripture, but maybe you struggle to read it regularly, struggle to understand it. That's what this episode is going to be all about. So buckle up. It's going to be fantastic. Hey, do you see this candle? Sometimes I just like to smell it. Eases the nerves and things like this. This candle is created by a friend of mine. Her name is Elisa McLaughlin and her candles are

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use Matt Fradd, one word, and that'll give you one month for free so you can try covenant eyes the whole thing 100 free on all your devices and if you don't like it you can not pay a cent i don't think that'll be the case we have it on all of our devices and we don't let our children play at people's houses unless they have this stuff locked down it really is that serious do the responsible thing go to covenant eyes.com today and in the promo code use matt frad it It'll get you a month for free. All right, here is my interview with Dr. Andrew Swofford. Just finish your sentence and then cut and then we'll just stitch it together. Dr. Andrew Swofford, how's it going? Hey, it's great to be here with you, Matt. Thanks for having me. That sounded super professional.

You got that great American voice. I'm like, Dr. Swofford, good to be with you, man. How are you? Oh, I'm doing well, mate. Do you remember that I went to the Philippines with Sarah Swofford, your darling wife? I do. She had a great time with you. When I first met her, I remember thinking, there's no way this woman is for real.

Because she's just so friendly and bubbly and lovely. You and me both. Did you think that? Oh, yeah. We were friends for a while, but oh, yeah. But then after however many hours it takes to fly to the Philippines, I'm like, no, she's like that all the time. Yeah.

No, she's great to have on your side. She can be a great cheerleader. Yeah. Well, it's really great to have you on the show. We've met just a handful of times, and I've seen some of the work you've been doing on the Great Adventure Bible stuff. That's what you call it, right? That's the name of it.

And I've been really impressed, and so I'm really excited to have you on the show. Tell our listeners a bit about yourself and me. Yeah, no, it's really great to be here. Yeah, you know, I hail from Dayton, Ohio, and I grew up Catholic, but kind of in name only, and didn't necessarily mean a whole lot, and went to play small college football, and just had a big conversion at Benedictine College, which is where I teach now, but never dreamed I'd be where I am now. On points with Aquinas? Yeah, Dr. Sri. Oh, you're there too.

So he taught there for nine years and kind of just changed my life and i went into this to kind of do what he did uh for me for others so tell us about that how dr sri changed your life because i've heard a little bit about it you know i just had never had a man proclaim the gospel with conviction and confidence like that before and you know i learned more frankly in a semester with him than i did 12 years catholic education uh it just is over time it was. It was a different group of friends, but that kind of confident conviction, proclamation of the gospel, it was powerful.

So were you playing football at Benedictine College? Yeah, no, I was, I was. And that hasn't always been a, correct me if I'm wrong, but that hasn't always been like a stellar Catholic institution. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, in fact, I think it really, there were seeds planted before us, but it kind of really turned while sarah and i were there to be honest with you um yeah no it's

uh it's got a long history but no it really has reclaimed its catholic identity in powerful ways and in the school's enrollment is more than doubled the size of the school that we went to and it was a long time ago but it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I kind of, I did well, I made the travel team my freshman year playoff squad my freshman year, kind of think you had everything you want, but you know that there's something missing, right? There's this, there's just, you know, when you're, when you're happiness, your joy is dictated by your times, your weights, your playing time,

et cetera. There's something off. And then I, we played an exhibition game in Paris, France, my freshman year, May after the season got out. This is NFL football? No. Not NFL football. I mean, American football. American football. Not rugby. That's the distinction I was trying to make.

Sorry. That's exactly right. It's not XFL either. What's that? This new alternative, you know, guys who aren't quite NFL. Oh, okay. American football.

Yeah. I broke my fibula in the game over there. And for me, my world was just crumbling. I didn't even want to go at the time. I wanted to get back home to train. Where's your fibula? Where is this? Lower calf,

calf, you know, so not, not, not your femur, not my femur, my fibula. Yeah.

Yeah. But, but it's, so for me at the time, I just went to a depression. My world, my identity was kind of gone. And,

uh, I ended up red shirting that next season. Cause I didn't want to waste a year of eligibility, not having trained all summer. Um, and then I, Dr. Street and I had been, I had

had him for two classes and I had declared a theology major, but not for good reasons. I was just kind of intrigued intellectually, but it hadn't gone from the head to the heart. And that summer is kind of going head to the heart. Um, we went out to lunch and I was firing questions. I'm left and right. And, uh, he's like, and I'm teaching this class called Christian moral life. It's full, but it sounds like from your questions to be up your alley, if you'd like, I'll let you in. So forgive me, where is this? In Benedictine? Benedictine College. He's teaching there.

He's teaching there. He taught there for nine years. And I don't know how to say it, but that class changed my life. You know, walking in, you think it's about Bible says this, can't do this, church says that. It's, you know, freedom, virtue, happiness, friendship.

All of a sudden I saw intellectually, this is why you're not happy because you're made for more. And then, you know, got involved in Focus Bible Study. And I remember being in my dorm room in my sophomore year, October. And I remember uh, you know, got involved in focused Bible study. And, uh, I remember being in my dorm room in my sophomore year, October. And I remember I was in a relationship with a girl back at Ohio university and a good girl though she was, it was clear. This is the last

thing that was kind of keeping me back from the life I wanted to live. Try not to bang on the table. Yeah. And, and, um, I remember praying in my dorm room almost audibly, um, saying, do you want me to leave this relationship? And I remember almost saying to myself and almost saying out loud, no matter what you say, I'm not going to do it. And I can't explain it, but two months later, going for Christmas break, I just knew inexorably this was the last thing holding you back. And for her sake and for mine, walked away. And it was like gas on a fire after that.

You just couldn't shut me up. And then Sarah transferred in the following fall. So it was really kind of powerful that I felt like the Lord prepared me to meet her. She didn't have to worry if, is my conversion about her? Is it legit? Is it sincere? Because it happened before I met her. And then the rest is history. So were you quite popular being the football guy? I mean, where Benedictine was at the time, it caught some waves because no one really, you had the kind of the God squad, Bible beaters, and you had the athletes and jocks and the party crowd and no one really,

uh, darkened each other's doorways. And so, yeah, it was, uh, it was a powerful, um, that's really, I mean, I would have to be, but it was, it caught people's attention and we were able to kind of build some bridges. We had a football non-denominational Bible study for a while. And, and we, we had a lot of kind of evangelical efforts of evangelical efforts just trying to kind of bring people out of the party crowd. And you said Focus was on the campus at the time? Focus began at Benedictine College. Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Yeah, it was part of Dr. Sri and Focus all began together late 90s. We rolled up. I was there August 2000 as a freshman. Oh, so, okay. So when did you have your conversion? What year was that? So it was, the height of it was like 9-11. Oh, 2002.

So I was in, it was in Dr. Sri Christian Moral Life class at the time when that happened. And then that Christmas break is when I left that relationship. Sarah transfers in the following fall. Okay. Yeah, mine was in 2000 at Rome, World Youth Day. Okay. So it was just a couple of years. That's amazing.

But then you went on to get a doctorate in what? And how did that go? Well, you know, with um you know part of my uh so the conversion with dr sheree's moral life class was powerful but also one thing he did for me is he connected jesus with the church uh because it's easy to be like i love jesus get the church thing away from me right and and so salvation history was kind of really the some of the seeds of my conversion and he didn't call it a great love of scripture for me. And, and I, you know, back then with Benedict and, um, you know, he had like three theology professors right now we have 10, right? I mean, I was able to take seminars with him as a sophomore and as

a junior. I mean, you can't get in those classes now cause it's too full. Um, so, uh, on his own council, I went to a Trinity evangelical divinity school to do a master's in old Testament and Semitic languages. Uh, so I was the only Catholicolic in the program and it was they were you know i was you know lived in a dorm with these guys and half of them are kind of phd bound half of them are kind of pastor bound and it was it was awesome i mean did hebrew there did aramaic there did greek there did a lot of archaeology and history stuff like that um and so i uh and how i mean obviously you were very bought into the catholic faith at this point but what was it like being with these other kinds of intellectual Christians talking about Catholicism versus evangelicalism? Well, you know, I, one story, so a good, my best friend from that time, his name's James Merrick, who's now writing for Ascension's blog actually.

So at the time we went around for hours and hours, we bonded over NT Wright, a shared love of NT Wright. We had a class with Kevin Van Hooser together. Who's kind of like a, kind of like an evangelical Bishop Baron. I mean, at the time it was kind of a up and coming. And, um, so we, we, we spent hours and hours and hours and I walked away from that thinking, I just didn't say the right things. We were friends, but he, you know, he, he would defend me to the Protestants. He would, he would, he rejected soul scripture, but I couldn't quite bring them all the way. Uh, we lost touch for about five, six years. He went off and did a doctorate at Aberdeen in Scotland on Karl Barth, became an Anglican priest for 10 years. And then we got back in touch.

And he's like, you know, those conversations really impacted me. And he became a Benedictine oblate two summers ago. He brought his entire family into the church, became Catholic. At the time, because of that, lost his minister's visa, had to leave Scotland, had to come back to the States, from the States, but he had to leave the States. I mean, really, his ecclesial career was seemingly over. His academic career, didn't know where to go. So that was a great example for me of someone who we went round and round. And sometimes you think you say the right thing.

Just a bit closer to the mic. Sometimes you think you say the perfect thing, right? They're going to fall like a deck of cards. Totally. The Holy Spirit just humbles you. And sometimes you think you just screwed it up. Yes. And the Holy. Sometimes you think you say the perfect thing, right? They're going to fall like a deck of cards. The Holy Spirit just humbles you. And sometimes you think you just screwed it up and the Holy Spirit surprises you. He's a great example for me of a conversion that took years. I mean, years to mature and blossom. But now he's a powerful, we teach him at a Catholic high school. He's working with Scott Hahn. He's writing for Ascension. He's going to,

he's got a book deal for Ascension Press right now. What's his name? James Merrick. And where does he teach? It's a high school in Pennsylvania. He's been working for the St. Paul Center as well with Scott Hahn. So through Sri, I got linked to Hahn. And when James was converting, I wrote to Scott and I said, here's a guy who's got a similar background as you. He's got some of the same intellectual heroes as you. And just kind of, just so let's just see what happens.

And Scott, I mean, really incredibly generous, um, brought James on for a year at the St. Paul center. Wanted to help kind of give him a Catholic formation, give him Catholic street cred. And that's what gave him the, got him the,

uh, high school teaching job. He was also adjuncted at Franciscan at the time. Uh, and now I think he's going to return with Scott. So, I mean, it's,

it's been great to see these worlds collide because James was reading Scott. He read, he read the catechism of eternity. He read Scott's dissertation He was reading everything and now it just like I said, it just took time to develop. So I love being there I did start to see initially my plan was go PhD Old Testament. I also kind of saw Some of our disagreements are not just about grammar and syntax and I kind of want to have more robust kind of theology and philosophy So that's when I went from there and did my doctorate at Mundelein. So Bishop Barron was just a priest at the time, just a professor. Father Barron did my dissertation under Father Edward Oaks.

The schools were about 20 minutes apart. So I was at a Protestant seminary and then a Catholic seminary. And it kind of, you know, I mean, for me, my great love, so I wrote on nature and grace and Aquinas, and to go from Aqu aquinas metaphysics to ancient hebrew and back and forth and and to see that the jewish jesus is the divine jesus that the fulfillment of the story of israel is fulfilled in the church and in another uh friend of mine i see every year at a conference brant petrie uh we just i just finished his jesus last supper with a

group of students a seminar i'm teaching and he talks about the Eucharistic restoration of all Israel he's taken the N.T. Wright project so much further and so much deeper so Dr. Sheree planted those seeds a long time ago love for N.T. Wright love for salvation history but I also had a great philosophy mentor at Benedictine named Dr. Rio

and he's a TAC grad just kind of gave me that pure Thomism and so for me those worlds kind of collided then and continue to collide. And it's just been powerful. I mean, I joke, I'm like, I'm just trying to be the ass upon which our Lord rise to Jerusalem. That's amazing. G'day, just want to take a pause from this interview and tell you about Hallow, which is a fantastic app that will help you to pray, teach you to pray, especially during this Lenten season. You've been wanting to grow more in your prayer life. Hallow can help you do

that. It's a fantastic app that leads you in different prayer experiences like Lectio Divina, where you have scripture read to you by a lovely voice and you have like Gregorian chant in the background, synth music, you can choose. You can do examinations of conscience. It'll help you pray the rosary. It's incredibly professional, like really professional because you know how there are those apps and they're kind of new agey and you want to use them because it kind of calms you down. This one, you don't have to worry about the new age stuff. It's 100% Catholic and it's super great. Halo offers a permanently free version of their app, which includes content that's updated every day, as well as a paid subscription option with

premium content. But by using the promo code Matt Fradd, one word, you can use, sorry, you can try out all the sessions in the app for a full month, totally for free. So to take advantage of this special offer, here's what I want you to do. Go to hallow.app. Check it out right now. hallow.app. And create your account online before downloading the app. That's amazing. Yeah, there's a lot there that you just threw out that I want to dive into all of it. Maybe why don't we begin with, you talked about the Jewish Jesus. You've talked about kind of understanding the Bible in a holistic way. because I would imagine that the vast majority of Christians don't look at the Bible that way. I probably don't look at that way as much as I should. So maybe talk about that,

because I know that you were responsible in great part for the, what's it called, the Bible, sorry, Great Adventure Bible Timeline. Yeah, the Great Adventure Bible Timeline came out two Septembers ago. And that's, so it's, you know, Jeff Cavins, Bible Timeline, teaching the Bible in a way that you get the overarching story and then understand everything in light of that. Just an incredible gifted Bible teacher. I was part of that with putting that into a Bible with Mary Healy, Peter Williamson, and then Jeff Cavins and myself.

And then this is it. And it's got- You did a great job. Well, it's got the timelines in there. It's got lots of maps. It's got all Jesus' words in red. Should you teach out of this? Is this your personal Bible?

Wow, you read the Bible a lot. Well, it's like faded jeans. You can buy it that way, right? No, so I usually teach out of other Bibles, but this is the one that i assign for the students because having the essays and having all the kind of it's taken away the need to have other books to do that work for me so um that's awesome but uh but yeah so doing doing that uh and doing bible studies um with ascension so we just did romans uh it's an eight dvd series um they just

came out last september uh jeff cavins and myself. You know, one of the most exciting moments in Bible scholarship in the last 30, 40 years is an insistence on situating Jesus in his Jewish, first century Jewish context and situating Paul likewise in his first century Jewish context. Okay, can we break that open then? So what does it mean to see Jesus in his first century Jewish context and maybe begin with how we just view him and why that's problematic? I mean, so there's a couple of different, I guess, ways we could dive in and layers to it. But let's start with this, the cynic Jesus, the hippie Jesus,

the just be nice to everybody. I mean, this is for me, my conversion, like the just be nice gospel. I mean, Confucius could have taught me that. Plato could have taught me that. What difference does Jesus make? The just be nice Jesus, the hippie Jesus, he doesn't get crucified. Historically speaking, that makes no sense at all. Unless you've got a really low view of the Jews, the ancient Jews, that they would just crucify someone for saying to love people. That's frankly historical nonsense. So I think even at an apologetic level, the kind of sometimes are kind of level, sometimes our revisionist views of Jesus, they actually have to make sense in Jesus' first century Palestinian context. So the only way Jesus gets crucified is because he catches the attention of the authorities,

both Jewish and Roman. And that's only going to happen because he's perceived as politically and religiously subversive. Um, it's not because it would, it would not have been subversive or interesting or exciting or even thought provoking to say, Hey, love people because, uh, love your neighbors yourself. That's in Leviticus 19. That's not actually new. Right. Um, so I think when, uh, for me and the projects that I'm excited, uh, to be involved in, um, one, I think, I think it's done a lot to restore confidence in the historical Jesus, okay? Because the gospel writers themselves,

it's all laced with the first century Jewish context, whether it's political debates, Sadducees, Pharisees, the geography, this is all about the humanity of the incarnation, right? The human, God didn't drop down a platonic philosophy. He didn't drop down an idea. He became one of us. He encountered us in space and time. And that's why it's not like middle earth. I mean, going to the Holy land, doing pilgrimages over there, these things happened in places you can go to, to this day. I mean, where did Zeus live,

right? Where did Osiris live? Where are the missionaries of Osiris? From the beginning, you've got missionaries of Christianity, missionaries of Jesus. And then when you've got the biblical story, the story of the rise and fall of the Davidic kingdom, which we could get into more, but then the kind of second temple context. So the Jewish writings that are contemporaneous with the Dead Sea Scrolls. You've got a number of things that have really opened our eyes to this Jewish context. And what I love showing students is how Jesus taps into and transcends that Jewish context. That these things are intelligible in Jesus' day, but they're not exhausted by Jesus' time period. In other words, you can't explain Jesus merely as a product of his own day, historically, but what he says and does,

does make sense, does register. And my conviction is when you have the sense for the context, it registers even more profoundly. So it's not as if you never want to bury the meaning to the there and then, but if you have an appreciation for how it would have sounded to a first century Jew, it redounds all the more loudly. Now from the early church, you have heretics like Marcion and others. And even today you have some people who want to throw out the Old Testament and edit the New Testament. So talk about that.

Why is that a problem? You know, it's funny, Bishop Barron, when he first launched the Word on Fire project and did those YouTube videos, one of his first ones that became pretty popular was the four YouTube heresies. The things that kind of he saw, and one of them was Marcionism,

that this kind of Old Testament, how do I deal with this angry God and all this kind of stuff, right? I mean, and there are some difficult passages, right? So I think a couple of things that I impress upon my students, one, the gradualness of Revelation. It's not all monolithic, right? It climaxes in Jesus. It's a story that's moving toward a goal, right? So you can't read every page of it as if it's on the same plane moving toward a goal right so to you can't read every

page of it as if it's on the same plane it's moving it has to all be read in light of christ crucified so there's a gradualness to it in fact the catechism catechism 122 speaks of some things in the old testament as provisional and imperfect and that's what it's getting at right so um what you have is a movement from the earthly to the heavenly from the old to the new you've got earthly blessings earthly curses but those things ultimately are the promised land. For example, the battles fought to attain the promise and the promised land becomes an image and a type of heaven itself, right? So the whole movement of the Exodus in bondage to Egypt, uh, out through the red sea and then journey through the wilderness to the promised land is really the prototype of salvation

so that you bondage to sin delivered new exits but but not simply for political liberation even in the exits that's not the goal the goal is actually a freedom to worship right that's that's the whole orientation of the book of exits and even as you go atop mount sinai uh so they get to sign on exits 19 get 10 commands 20 and then 24 you have the kind of covenant uh sacrifice and ratification ceremony. And then in 24, 11, you've got this kind of banquet feast where they beheld God in the presence of God. And for the ancient Jews, going to top Sinai is like going to heaven itself. And the tabernacle complex, like Holy of Holies, that's like taking Sinai with you.

And so this becomes kind of the prototype. And then the manna, for example, the manna ceases when they get to the promised land, Joshua 5, 12, the manna. So the manna is precisely the food for the journey after the Exodus, before the promised land, just as there's been a new Exodus with the cross and the manna, the new manna, the heavenly manna, the Eucharist sustains us in our journey. And then when we get there, the sign right now is the reality. It is Jesus, but the sign will give way to face-to-face communion. And so when you look at that Exodus movement from Egypt, the Sinai, this banquet in the presence of God, I mean, this is where, and you have all these, like in Isaiah 25, 6 through 8, you have this, one of the greatest expressions of this messianic banquet hope for all people's

abundance of wine, where death is overcome, I will swallow up death forever. This is all this messianic banquet motif, which Jesus taps into and fulfills in the Eucharist, the wedding supper of the lamb. And so you get this kind of convergence from the earthly to the heavenly. So I guess, so to your question, I'm kind of going on and on.

This is great. The gradualness of revelation, having an attentive ear for that. I speak to my four-year-old differently. I speak to my 13-year-old, right? The way in which where you are in the story, get a sense for the big picture, have a sense for the movement from the earthly to the heavenly, right? So the earthly battles, image really, the spiritual battles we have to undergo to get to the ultimate promised land. And then to read it canonically. So to have, you know, Benedict Emeritus used to say as Ratzinger that the New Testament writers themselves, especially the gospel writers, they are the normative theologians. Not just, you know, historians, they're the normative theologians because it's not just what they recount.

It's how they recount it, how they see the story of Israel and the story of humanity climaxing in Jesus. see the story of Israel and the story of humanity climaxing in Jesus. I think there's a need, and there's more to say, more to do, to return to that, though, because I think Catholics can fall into a trap of kind of either a magisteriology or a theologianology. And these great doctors of the church, like Aquinas, I mean, they see a lot of what they're doing is expounding the implications of scripture. So as,

as, as tough as it can be on occasion, we go to mass. I love jump a second. I love Aquinas. You'll never hear them read at mass. You'll never hear them read at mass. There's a privileged place for sacred scripture as,

as Dave Arab, Vatican two called for scripture to become once again, the soul of theology, not in a kind of process, soul scripture sense, but the animating principle as the God-breathed word, because of nothing else do we say it's divinely authored. Yeah, I want to get to that. But before we do, I want to talk about what you said about this gradual revelation. Can that become problematic, though? Because I imagine you could begin to read God's words in the Old Testament and start explaining them away or saying,

well, that's him talking to someone who's not fully developed and therefore we don't have to take him at his word? Or is it more just like you said, everything has to be read through the cross as the interpretive grid? Through the cross as the interpretive grid. But no, you make a good point. I think a great way to dive into that would be the law question, right? So some like Aquinas, and this is very at home in the tradition of the fathers, distinguishes among the law, the moral law, the ceremonial law, and the judicial or civil law. So moral law, I mean, the greatest concentration of that's gonna be like 10 commandments, the ceremonial or ritual law, Leviticus, the judicial or civil law, Deuteronomy.

Now you've got other parts sprinkled throughout but but that's that's really kind of a classic codification um so on the one hand being attentive to the different kinds of law and the other thing too if i could and i'll get right to your question but when these law codes were given so leviticus it's not an accident follows immediately after the golden calf and there's a kind of a golden calf 2.0 and numbers 25 called the bail pit or incident which is at the end of the 40-year wandering it's the second generation so the the adults of the exodus commit the golden calf their children commit the bail pit or episode and then not coincidentally after the bail pit or episode on the plains of moab were given deuteronomy. And so seeing one, the topical

differences of the laws, and then also when they were given as a clue to what's going to be permanent and what's going to be temporary. So take an example, which I think it may be partly where you're going. Say the prohibition against adultery is part of the moral law. And because what happens in the new covenant is the moral law continues. The ceremonial law is fulfilled in Christ and the judicial or civil law dies in Christ because the church is not a nation state. And so that's why those laws don't apply, but take, take adultery. The moral law continues, but the punishment prescribed for adultery, that's part of the judicial law. That's part of the civil law.

So in terms of the new covenant, the prohibition against adultery continues, but the prescription to stone the adulterer or the adulteress does not. So I think having a sense for the different kinds of law and why those laws were given in context. Again, when Paul says in, in, in Galatians three 19,

that the law was quote added because of transgression. This is part of what he has in mind that it was fall. And then God meeting his children where they are. I mean, if you've got a righteous son or daughter, they don't need as many rules. Yeah. But if they're keep going off the grid, the you've got a righteous son or daughter, they don't need as many rules. Yeah. But if they're keep going off the grid, the curfew comes down, et cetera, et cetera.

That's part of the fatherly dynamic of what's going on there. I mean, I'll just give you one other example. Um, and this, I don't mean to give too many details, but, um, you have sacrifice before the golden calf, but you do not have daily mandatory sacrifice until after the golden calf. Really? No, you don't. And there's a clue, if you look at like Exodus 8, 26, for example, where Pharaoh says to Moses,

go sacrifice in the land. And Moses says, we can't. If we do, the Egyptians will stone us because what's implied by that is something about the sacrifice we're called to make is subversive of the worship around us. Now, I've heard that. were called to make is subversive of the worship around us. Now, I've heard that. I remember hearing that in this great adventure, that each of these plagues were something to do with a god

that the Egyptians worshipped. Is that actually true? How do you know that that's true? Well, it's true. It's tough to line up all of them, right? But like Hoppy was worshipped in the Nile, and then Hecate and the frogs. So a number of the plagues line up very, very well.

Some we're not entirely sure, but I'd point you to, I mean, this is the- Break this open for those listening who have no idea what we're talking about because this is really fascinating. So the plagues, the 10 plagues, don't think of this as like divine power play. These are strategic strikes against polytheism.

They've been in this Egyptian environment for a long time. So go back to Exodus 3.12. So God calls Moses and he says, you're going to go redeem the people. You're going to go back to exodus 12 312 so god calls moses and he says i'm gonna you're gonna go redeem the people uh you're gonna go back to egypt you're gonna free my people and he's like when i go back and and i say god's gonna redeem you they're gonna say which god so which god should i tell them and that's just a sign of the kind of polytheistic environment they've been in for so long and in the divine name the tetragrammaton the sun given the the i am who am this is in effect saying i I am not, which is built off of the Hebrew verb hayah, to be.

He is the one who is. He is not like these local deities. The whole movement of the Exodus is to get them not only physically out of Egypt, but to get Egypt spiritually out of Israel's heart. That's what the golden calf is. It's a return back to Egypt. So the plagues really are targeting idolatry targeting polytheism if you look at exodus 12 12 it's very explicit that i've brought in these plagues brought judgments quote against the gods of egypt it's repeated again in numbers 33 verse 4 just um so that's already there i've heard jeff cavins describe it like if you're

going to worship frogs here's a bunch of frogs or if you're going to worship the nile we're going to kill it and it's going to turn to blood that kind of thing that totally and then the the he hegypt concept of maat, which is like the kind of cosmic order of things. It was Pharaoh's job to maintain that. His inability to do so is on full display. So Pharaoh's own kind of deity ship, uh, and his own inability to do that is a clear sign of who the real and living God is. Uh, and then after the golden calf, that problem is just even more pronounced. And so now, and so the sacrifices and you have different kinds that can be seen in different ways,

points of Christ. But one reason that Aquinas mentions in the Summa, for example, why the rise of mandatory sacrifice, part of it is to eradicate their addiction to idolatry. That that's that. So in other words, once you start seeing the reason for things in context, I think that's really, really helpful. And this isn't new. This is the perspective of like Maimonides, a medieval Jewish philosopher. I mean, so this isn't like a brand new theory. This is something that the fathers of the church saw this. If you look at the Targums, if you look at the Jewish Targums of like Onkelos and if you look at like the Targum on Exodus 826 and things like that, they'll say explicitly they're called to sacrifice because of the Egyptian worship around them. So even like the prohibition against pork and things like that, all of this is designed

to institutionalize a separation of Israel because they need to be quarantined and rehabbed. And one day it'll be time for them to be like to the nations when they're strong enough. And the Pharisees, in effect, are riding in that wave of separationist holiness. Jesus is bringing about this promise to Abraham. Because they're in egypt for 400 years several centuries yeah is that am i wrong yeah well there's a few wrinkles that would they would affect the time so in exodus 1240 there's a discrepancy between the hebrew and the septuagint and the septuagint makes it sound like they were there for that long um not just in egypt but including from abraham forward okay which would then shorten it uh to 200 something does that make sense so centuries for sure but there's a textual discrepancy yeah uh that would you know would affect it now there's

different sacrifices that are asked for in leviticus um but i guess the one we're talking about here when you talk about daily sacrifice, this is of animals in particular. Right, right. It might be worth running through. So on the one hand, the rise and the uptick of sacrifice is in part because of the golden calf. Again, the golden calf itself, the gold, think of wealth. But the calf or the bovine symbol throughout the engineers was a symbol of sexual virility, manliness. So think of money, sex, and power. That's what's going on. So the more things change, the engineers what was a symbol of sexual virility manliness so think of think of money sex and power that's what's going on so the more things change the more things stay the same um the it definitely is an uptick because of that um but you got the the

whole the whole law the burnt offering uh they get the mika the grain offer so you have you also have non-bloody sacrifices so what do they mean well so the the and then you get the shillamim the peace offering and then the hot top the sin offering and then then you get the Shalemim, the peace offering, and then the hot top, the sin offering, and then the Asham, the guilt offering. So if you think of the whole law, the whole thing is burnt up. So, so maybe I guess back up, I'd say sacrifice, um, in its basic form, biblically is a ritualized self offering. This is our, this is the human vocation was jump on. So I can say to make a gift of oneself.

What does Jesus do? Definitively he makes the total gift of himself. So it's a ritualized self offering. Um, the whole the whole law the burnt offering all of it goes up it kind of embodies that the minha the grain offering right the the so it's important to note yes we have a lot of animals it's not all there's also unbloody sacrifices and they have the shalameen the peace offering which is a communion offering what is a peace offering what is that well from shalom so shalameen so in other words sacrifices you can look at some of them either expressing communion or restoring communion with god okay so those first three

really are more expressing communion and those are the ones that you see before the golden calf okay after the golden calf you get the hatat the sin offering and the asham the guilt offering because it's clear that this thing in order you might think of this and so in part the sacrifice is embodying the punishment that israel deserves after the golden calf after her she swore the oath of fidelity and then she's you know um goes against it in an apostasy um so and then the peace offering though the most important subset of that was the todah, which is the thank offering. Okay. If you translate that into Greek, you get Eucharistia.

Okay. The ancient rabbis had a saying that in the messianic era, all sacrifices will cease except for the Todah. So what does that right? In the Eucharist. All right. Well, what does that look like in the old Testament? What does that thing offering actually look like?

How do you offer that? See, this is, yeah. I mean, um, what's so in Leviticus seven Testament? What does that thank-offering actually look like? How do you offer that? See, this is, yeah. Do we know? So in Leviticus 7, you get the todah, but it really gets a much greater play in the Davidic period with the psalms, the sacrifice of thanksgiving. So the idea behind a todah is that often you have somebody who's suffering,

they cry out, they're delivered, and then they give thanks. And what's really intriguing is if you look at the Passover, and the Passover specifically, after the first one, when it's celebrated, it has all the earmarks of a todah. They were suffering, they cried out, they're delivered, and now we remember and we enter into that. And so that's probably the link. And when you look at the Passover, then not just in Exodus 12, but in the first century with Jesus, And when you look at the Passover then, not just in Exodus 12, but in the first century with Jesus, part of it is these Hallel Psalms, Psalms 113 to 118, a number of which are Todah Psalms. If you look at like 116, 118, in other words, it seems to be the case that by the first century, the Passover was understood as kind of a corporate Todah. And so here's this Eucharistic thank offering fulfillment. So this is how I would look at it in terms of from the old to the new. So you've got the Exodus 12,

you've got the mention of the todah in Leviticus 7, but it becomes massively important in the Davidic era. And so there's a number of, I guess, moving parts. When I teach about the covenants, especially Abraham, Moses, and David, with the Mosaic covenant, you always got to ask, where am I? Is this pre or

post golden calf? There's a sense in which, so St. Paul in Galatians 3.8, for example, he says that the quote gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham. Paul sees the new covenant, not simply coming after the old covenant, but actually is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic. So in other words, it's not simply chronological. The Abrahamic and the Davidic have a greater symmetry with the new than many parts of the Mosaic. So the pre-Golden Calf Mosaic gets subsumed into the new Ten Commandments. The post-Golden Calf Mosaic dies in Christ. So in other words, because the Davidic covenant, Davidic kingdom, that whole era is kind of

the high point of the Old Testament. And we could go through this, but it becomes international. The temple's embodying this, the glory. There's a number of parts where here's the kind of closest approximation to the gospel going beyond the bounds of Israel, but then it shatters after Solomon's son, Rehoboam, kingdom divides, et cetera.

That Davidic kingdom gives you an earthly and imperfect blueprint of the kingdom that Jesus brings about. And so the fact that the todah becomes kind of the preeminent sacrifice in the Davidic period is hugely important for this Eucharistic kingdom fulfillment. Why don't we do that first? Tell us, keeping in mind that those who are watching, this might be the first time they're kind of hearing about this. Talk about how the Eucharist

is the fulfillment of the Passover lamb. Because so um what I love about it and again when I teach I love to show how the Eucharist or how Jesus fulfills the story of Israel but simultaneously the story of humanity at the same time so uh in the Passover um so you have the plagues and then the tenth leg there uh the Israelites are told to slay a Passover lamb to eat the lamb uh and to smear the blood on the doorpost. And then the death will pass over those houses. And this becomes kind of a, again, a prototype because Jesus brings about a new Exodus, not from Egypt, not from Babylon, not from Rome, but from sin, death, and the devil. But key to Exodus 12 is you had to eat the lamb. You had to consume the lamb. The sacrifice was

not completed until you ate it. And by the way way the todah is the only sacrifice where the worshiper eats typically the priest eats some or it's all burned up but in the todah the worshiper has to eat part of the sacrifice again this this fits the passover narrative um so jesus at the last supper this is a passover meal um you've got um and it's in the last supper you've got passover you got it's in the last supper, you've got Passover, you got other elements in the background, but say Passover, it's a Passover meal. And Jesus is that we say lamb of God, lamb of God, lamb of God at mass. This isn't because Jesus cute and cuddly and meek. It's because he's the new Passover, the new Exodus.

And you look at Paul in first Corinthians five, seven, he says, Christ, our past, our Paschal lamb has been sacrificed. Therefore let's keep the feast. In other words, the sacrifice is not complete until he's consumed. And so the Last Supper, the cross, and the Eucharist, there's a tight threefold connection there because when we consume the Eucharist, we complete the Passover so that death may pass over us. And one of the things I always say before I receive, I always quote Ignatius of Antioch.

So he wrote these letters in 107 AD and then is martyred in Rome. But in his letter to the Ephesians, so the same Ephesians that Paul wrote to, chapter 20, he refers to the Eucharist as, and this is a guy that was ordained by Peter. Ordained by Peter, knew the apostles, speaks of the Eucharist as the quote, medicine of immortality, antidote against death.

I always say that to myself and I always say- How do you say it? Well, I just say medicine of immortality as I'm walking up there. Because what's our greatest fear? It's death, it's corruption. It's the finality of it all. And what does Jesus promise? You look at John six, the better life discourse. Uh, you know, uh, the, the, the, unless you eat the flesh, the son of man drink his blood, you have no life in you. And he speaks of raising you up on the last day. This is where Ignatius is getting it from. Uh, so the Eucharist fulfills the passover but it also fulfills our you know the

greatest adamant curse that we're worried about you are dust and to dust you shall return the the overcoming of the grave and i know i'm bouncing around a lot but the whole like i'm spiritual not religious i'm like that and again i love my prosper brothers and sisters that might make sense there but you can't replace the eucharist that's why we go we don't go just for a great homily though we're excited when it happens we don't go just for a great homily, though. We're excited when it happens. We don't go just for the music. We're excited when it happens. It's because there you have the bread of life that overcomes the grave.

And in receiving Jesus' risen body, we have hope in our own resurrection. And so, in your experience, would the Protestant look at that, that typology you've just laid out, and say, I agree with what you're saying, but for us, Eucharist is taken in a spiritual sense. Is that how they try to get around it? Well, I mean, you've got different types of Protestants, obviously. But there's a lot of exciting movements. For example, a lot of Protestants, in terms of the scholars, the academics, yeah, Jesus is bringing about the new exodus.

Well, if you look at the first exodus, it went from liberation to worship. Well, how did Jesus think he'd be worshipped in the new Exodus? What about all these Messianic banquet motifs? What about all these, you know, another theme in the Old Testament is this bread of the presence, the Lechem Hapanim. So it's in the holy place. So you get the three parts of the tabernacle. You have this bread and wine it's if you look at exodus 25 it's around verse 30 or so it speaks of the bread and the wine of the presence

and then leviticus 24 verses 5 through 9 um but this this um this bread of the presence the priest ate it every sabbath it was like a communion meal it was basically a making present entry into that original sinai banquet in the presence of god well Well, is there a meal, a bread and wine of the presence, the real presence of Jesus where we can eat in the presence of God? So all these, so I think a couple of things, I guess this is the larger question, but I think we've, we are too reductionistic in how we read the Old Testament and what we think of the ancient Jews were hoping for. We, I mean, so often you hear, well, they were just hoping for a military Messiah and they were just so earthly, earthly, earthly. And it's like, have you read the literature? Have you read Daniel?

Have you read Isaiah 65, verse 17, 18, this hoping for a new creation, a new heavens, a new earth, a messianic banquet. In other words, I think once we really reclaim and see how elevated the Jewish hope was, we see how tightly Jesus actually steps into it, fulfilling, as I said, both the story of Israel and the story of humanity. I don't know if that makes any sense. Have you engaged Jewish people about this and about what they think the Old Testament Jews? Yeah. So I've got another friend of mine, Michael Barber. He says, and I see these guys every year at SBL, Society of Biblical Literature.

He used to teach me theology in my undergrad. He's great. He used to teach me theology in my undergrad. He's fantastic. I mean, him and I think him and Petrie, for example, and John Burks. But I think there's some of the finest Catholic biblical scholars around.

Right now, I'm doing a seminar on developments in Catholic biblical scholarship. Because what's happened now, and you've always had Catholic biblical scholars. You have Mary Helian, for example. But what's different now, it seems, is not only scholars you have mary helian for example um but what's that what's different now it seems is not to you only not only do you have uh biblical scholars who are catholic you've got devoutly catholic scholars with all the linguistic and historical street cred you could ever want and they're building huge bridges was that not true 50 years

ago 100 years ago i don't think so i really i don't i don't i don't know that they're gaining the respect of their protestant colleagues without selling their soul yeah i think that's what's different to be i mean if i could be that frank i i think that's and i think it's what do you say selling this so what do you mean by that well i mean take a look like compromising on yeah i mean okay like say uh father raymond brown or joseph fitzmaier great i mean reputable scholars they got the attention of the scholarly world and some of their work is great. Some of it, I think, is suspect. And it's suspect in terms of the integration of faith and reason.

And, you know, does Catholic faith hold my exegesis back? Or does it actually help me see things in a deeper way? There are a book that Barbara Petrie and Kincaid just came out with last August, Paul, a New Covenant Jew, which is what a title, Paul, a New Covenant Jew. And it's in the guy, the road forward is one of the premier

Protestant Pauline scholars. So I haven't talked to a lot of Jews myself personally. I mean, I've read their works, things like that. But Michael Barber is an example of, I just talked to him the other day. He had a lunch with a rabbi, and just building big time bridges.

And so, yeah, some, I mean, Protestants of different stripes will see different things, but the situating Jesus, and for them to see, for a lot of people, the idea of Jesus found in a church is like unthinkable.

But what's happened though as well, if you see this in terms of the— so one of the deep hopes of ancient Jews is the restoration of all 12 tribes. So you have the United Kingdom with David and Solomon around 1000 B.C., and this is where you have David and Solomon ruling over all 12 tribes, but and—here's the key—and the surrounding nations. So if you look at 1 Kings 8, 41 to 43, so when Solomon built the temple, 1 Kings 6 to 8,

and then he dedicates it with seven petitions. So by the way, it takes seven years to build. It's dedicated on the seventh month and the seven-day Feast of Tabernacles with seven petitions. So Eden, Tabernacle, Temple, these are all coming together, right? Anybody who's in Christ is a new creation.

The kingdom divides after Solomon, and then the 10 northern tribes go their own way, and then you have the tribe of Judah left. This is why Jew and Israelite are not the same thing. So every Jew, etymologically, it means from the tribe of Judah. Every Jew is an Israelite, but not every Israelite is a Jew. So now eventually, fast forward to 722 BC, the Assyrians. So the Neo--assyrian empire from

745 to the 620s uh ultimately the capital is destroyed in 7 and 612 with nineveh they're the premier power i mean the the most feared empire around they destroy the northern kingdom in 722 they scatter the 10 northern tribes they mingle them with gentiles i mean you've heard of the lost tribes of israel this is where it comes from though some of those tribes go south, some of those people, but for all intents and purposes, you don't hear about the 10 northern tribes again. They really become intermingled with the Gentiles. And so one of the great, and so then you have the southern tribe, Judah, kingdom of Judah, and then Babylon destroys them in 586. And then they go to Babylon exile. They return, but it's only a partial return. It's only the Jews from Judah

who have returned the deep deep hope for the ancient israelites is that one day god would restore the messiah would restore all 12 tribes but to do that you're going to have to restore the nations because 10 12 of them are mingled with the nations when paul is going out to the gentiles he sees himself as in part bringing about the restoration of quote, all Israel. So long story short with what a lot of pro ecumenical scholars have seen is that when you understand the church as the fulfillment of the family of Abraham, the fulfillment of this restoration of all Israel,

all of a sudden it makes a lot more sense to them in the first century. And when you have kind of cultic entering into this in terms of the Eucharist, last supper, things like the sacramentality, like scholars that know the first century and know the old testament they're like that's actually quite at home if this is not a medieval invention at all so this is back to the first step situating jesus in his first century jewish context has actually made sense of a ton of catholic things and with barbara Petrie and these guys, at the SBL conference, it's like 10,000 Bible scholars

from all over the English-speaking world. So I've met N.T. Wright there, Australia, England, New Zealand. I mean, it's all kinds. Every kind of, you know, I mean, atheist, agnostic, totally secular, yeah, oh yeah. Jewish New Testament scholars, all kinds.

What I tell my students in terms of apologetics is we can remove obstacles and we can provide motives of credibility. There's a point where you can't bring someone all the way there, but I've seen tons of obstacles removed for these scholars to make it credible again, make it believable, make it reasonable, and their eyes have been opened. It sounds to me like what you're saying is maybe 50, 100 years ago, we had scholars who were getting attention in scholarly circles, but maybe weren't fully Catholic or compromised some of their Catholicism.

But then on the other hand, as the new apologetics kind of revolution took place in America, you've got people who are maybe very good at responding to sort of Protestant arguments. But it sounds like what you're saying in this new kind of crop of scholars is that you've got both the kind of intellectual chops and then also the fully Catholic and that that's helping our evangelical friends. Big time. And even the secular ones, I mean, it's kicking the door open. I mean, if you look at the history of biblical scholarship, a lot of what became biblical scholarship was a post-reformation phenomenon because then you were,

I mean, here's the part of the challenge is you're moving the bible removing the bible from the context of the church from the context of liturgy right there's a there's a quote in bondage of the will from luther where he says any passage in scripture that is not clear will be made clear by future grammatical and syntactical research and that's like a charter to the enlightenment view of the bible and take it they put it in the academy not the church right yes uh so i i'd say catholics on the whole were kind of like stood arms length from that whole process for it so that's where we were behind the game there was all a protestant thing interesting and it became more and more secularized in the enlightenment context uh more and more kind of secularized and then um is it

was the idea that the catholic scholar need not be interested in that because the church had the church to tell him? Yeah. And it was it was kind of a poisonous rabbit trail that was just going to lead to nowhere. You had Lee the 13th at the end of the 19th century, a big proponent of biblical scholarships. It was brewing, but really it's and then Pius the 12th, Divino Infante Spiritu in the mid 40s. mid forties, um, it was growing, but then after Vatican two, not, not because of that but it, but it was perceived that, uh, the floodgates opened and you can do what the Protestants are doing and you can study scripture merely in human terms.

And so you had that just frankly craziness, uh, again, not because of Vatican two, but, but, but after Vatican two, um, and it took a while for the church to sort that out. And so the evangelicals, for example, were doing much better work, I would say, in like 1980 than we were because we were a few generations behind. And it was what the evangelicals did. This is why I went to study at Trinity. They were very good at the literary, the linguistic, the historical. They were actually willing to engage the critics and be critical of the critics. Whereas the Catholics, I'd say at that point, we're simply drinking this,

the critical school aid. Ah, um, if, if that makes sense. Yep. And so, uh,

we've caught up, I think that's really caught up and we've, but we've caught up not only. So as I mentioned that Paul, New Covenant Jew, one of the things that Michael Gorman, the Protestant scholar who wrote the forward said in there, you know,

uh, the scholars. So for example, the last supper account in first Corinthians 11 often doesn't get a lot of, uh, treatment because most appalling scholarship is influenced by protestantism but catholics who are more attentive to the liturgical echoes the importance of the liturgy the importance of the liturgy is the way by which we enter into christ he pointed out he's like look their catholic tradition here has actually made them more attentive to things that seem to be

in paul so to see the cath Catholic faith is not a detriment to scholarship, but actually something that helps incredibly, even at an exegetical level. I'll give you one more, I guess, just brief anecdote. Petrie, in his Jesus and the Last Supper, gave, in my opinion, one of the most brilliant, one of the, I don't know, raise another problem, one of the difficulties or traditional challenges

is the dating of the Last Supper because the synopticsoptics at least on its face seem to give a slightly different view than john uh in terms of of was the last supper a passover meal or or not um petrie gives a fat i mean this whole chapter could have been a whole book it's like a hundred pages like one of the most brilliant treatments of the issue that i've ever seen. And then just two February's ago, he gave a paper at Ave Maria's Aquinas conference and showed how Aquinas actually anticipated his view. Oh, that's fantastic. And Petrie's in the paper, and I shared it with my students. I mean, the paper's like, look at Aquinas, not only the great philosopher, the great theologian,

but look at his exegetical and historical carefulness. That literally, basically proposed the same view that Petrie took hundreds and hundreds of pages. Which is? Well, okay. So basically it comes down to this, that the word Passover for the ancient Jews could be used in more than one way. So I guess just in a nutshell, you could use the word Passover to refer to the Passover lamb. You could use the word passover yeah to refer to the the passover lamb you could use the word passover so when we english translations even if you look at luke's gospel like luke 22 verse 7 and 8 it speaks of the pasca and translations will often add lamb but it doesn't

have lamb there in other words you would just say passover and that could be the lamb i see that could be the meal that could be the uh week-long holiday yeah okay or the passover peace offerings that are offered throughout the week okay so what happens is you've got these series of of references to passover in john's gospel and scholars who don't know that jewish backdrop take it to only mean basically the the the first original passover sacrifice so what happens for example is when you have in john when uh the jews don't want to enter the praetorium because they want to be able to eat the Passover, they don't want to defile themselves,

scholars say, see, look, John has Jesus die when the Passover lambs are sacrificed. The meal is that night, Good Friday night, and therefore the synoptics recount on Holy Thursday can't have been a Passover meal, even though they tell you a dozen times that it is a Passover meal. Does that make sense?

So basically, it very much comes down to squaring the synoptic evidence with the Johanna evidence and John. And the key to the John evidence is to be sensitive that the word Passover does not mean the exact same thing every time. And Petrie-Marshallals tons of first century Jewish evidence and biblical evidence to support that. And then it's amazing that Aquinas... So Petrie came up with this and then retrospectively found out that Aquinas proved it?

Petrie said to me that that book represents 10 years of his life. And you could feel it. When my students read this, I mean, it's over 500 pages and... Which book is this? Jesus and the Last Supper. So it's the academic version of the Jewish roots.

Exactly, right. And so, but then Aquinas here, without the Dead Sea Scrolls, without tons of Jewish literature book is this? Jesus and the Last Supper. So it's the academic version of the Jewish roots. Exactly. But then Aquinas here, without the Dead Sea Scrolls, without tons of Jewish literature that we have at our disposal, already anticipated that conclusion. Principally in his Gospel of John. It's in the Summa a little bit, but the Gospel of John commentaries. He's dug up all these quotes. What I love about Petrie and so maybe here's another thing that's new is

to do the exegetical, roll up your sleeves, learn the Hebrew, learn the Aramaic, do that hard work, but also do it in conjunction with Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Aquinas, and show the symmetry.

Cause here's the thing. Here's my word. I love Newman. I love Newman. I think Catholics sometimes will scream development of doctrine as like an intellectual panacea that fixes everything. Well, doctrine developed.

Well, it's like, okay. Yeah. But the person that you, like, you can't give that fixes everything. Well, doctrine developed. Well, it's like, okay. Yeah. But the person, the pew, like you can't give the impression that, well, um, you know, they want to know, did Jesus and the apostles think the same thing as the council of Nicaea? Did Jesus and the apostle think the same thing as Trent?

Obviously our understanding of the faith does grow and develop, but it's not adding to what Jesus gave us. Um, as I said, the Jewish Jesus, this is the Catholic Jesus. So basically, if you don't know the Old Testament, you have a supremely deficient view of Christ and the church. It's not that everybody's got to go. It's not that everyone's got to know, of course. No, but you...

It'd be like walking into the last few scenes of the third Star Wars movie without seeing... Without question. And I would just press this to you. You couldn't imagine Paul giving the kerygma without reference to the story of Israel. I mean, if that's the read of Paul, then you're not really reading Paul, right?

So it's not that everybody's got to go around and be a Hebrew scholar. But the, and if you've never read the Old Testament, and I wouldn't start someone for the very first time, I would say read the Gospels. And you'll get something out of it. But you'll get so much more if you know the story and the hopes and the dreams and how Jesus, as I said, taps into and transcends the hopes of the first century.

So I want to get to that, the kind of timeline. But before we do, we've touched upon sola scriptura. Tell us why sola scriptura is, well, what it means and why it's false. Yeah, soin for scripture alone and it was one of the kind of protestant uh battle cries at the reformation uh that and i when i was at trinity evangelical it's the only catholic in the program and when this would come up i'd say well sola scriptura so it typically is an anti-tradition thing it's bible alone that's all i need and then i would say well sola scriptura isn't that one of your traditions

and they look at me like i had three ads, but, but I'm like, unless it's taught emphatically, in which case would it still be? I will, but see, here's the thing is, I mean, the, the, the, the Bible doesn't teach it. Um, the, the proof decks for it in second Timothy, Paul is talking about the scriptures when you, Timothy, were a child, which has to be the old Testament. That's what, and actually had a Protestant scholar,

Dr. Willem van Gemmer, my Old Testament scholars, he actually took that position in class. He used to love to like, you know, position me to poke his... Yeah, I mean, the Protestant academics tend to argue differently than the rank and file. Okay. But what I think it...

Just for those at home, we're talking about that bit where, where St. Paul says, yeah, all scriptures inspired and profitable for teaching instruction, et cetera. Um, of course all scriptures inspired, but nowhere does it say scripture is your only rule of faith, your only authority. And then pair that with like second Thessalonians 2 15 or second Thessalonians 3 6 or first Thessalonians 11 2 where Paul exhorts us to hold fast to

the traditions you were taught either orally or biologically and the thing is think about the apostles they when we speak of tradition I think sometimes we think of it too cerebrally and intellectually like Jesus gave these private classes that didn't make it into the Bible the catechism is

very very good on this like the catechism about 80 doctrine, life and worship. In other words, think about a ancient rabbi disciple relationship. Jesus lived with the apostles for three years. I mean, I joke with my students, like, look, when you've had a professor for three or four times, you can finish his or her sentences. And they always laugh because the ones who've had me like, yep, that's true. I'm like, imagine not just coming to a class and not just having me for a semester. Imagine if we traveled the country together and I gave the same intro lecture

over and over and over again. What is tradition? It's the life of Christ passed on to the disciples, the apostles. So they watch how he prays, how he worships, how he serves, how he teaches. All of that is what we mean by sacred tradition. And the apostles, they found churches

that are up and running, celebrating the sacraments long before they ever receive a text of New Testament scripture. I'd recommend a fantastic book on this, Consuming the Word by Scott Hahn. He's got to have like a liturgical trilogy, Lamb's Supper, from written text to living word, and then Consuming the Word. And in that book, the third one, Consuming the Word, he lays out a pretty extended argument for the for basically the first 100 200 years or so when early christians spoke

of the new testament see testament is the latinization of the word covenant they meant the new covenant and they meant the new covenant sacrifice which is the eucharist that as he jokes not joking he says the new testament was first a sacrifice before it was a document that the new testament texts were basically those were the texts fit to be read in the context of the new covenant sacrifice the eucharist and so there's a whole the tradition is logically and chronologically prior yeah to scripture and so what i would say is once you have that sense for scripture as swimming within the tradition, Scripture has a privileged place, but within the tradition.

Maybe talk also about the fact that sola scriptura presupposes scriptura, which isn't in Scripture. Well, the issue of the canon is what you're getting at. Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Right. I mean, there's no inspired tip of content. The Bible is really a collection of many books. It's not one book. And so even the very issue of what makes up the Bible itself, the list of books that are declared inspired and canonical,

that's something bequeathed to us by tradition, by tradition. So the issue of canon is tied up with the issue of authority. There's really a need as Peter Crave, one of our heroes, once joke, you can't get infallible orange juice from a fallible Catholic orange. Either you trust the discernment of the Holy Spirit with the bishops who helped. The bishops don't give candidacy to the scripture. They don't give inspiration to it. But there is a need for an authority to recognize what is, in fact, scripture. And there were questions.

I mean, there were other letters that were first climate that were highly revered. And so when you read them, they're beautiful, right? So it's not abundantly clear that you can simply decipher this on a human level. So the scripture writings of the New Testament, yeah, they're apostolic. That's why, right, they're apostolic, either written by an apostle

or an associate of the apostles. But there's a need for an authority to adjudicate those questions. Help us understand why product people usually say why Catholic Bibles are bigger, but I'm going to ask you, why a Protestant Bible smaller? Yeah.

So I'd say a couple of things. So once again, the issue of Canon is tied up with authority. It's really something given to us by tradition. And we see this at the, where is it? Pope Damasus, the first,

the council of rome 382 382 carthage hippo but even in 382 even though he has the division which is a little bit different to how we would divide it the exact same books he lays out of what we have in a catholic bible today that's exactly right and so we speak of the deuterocanonicals as catholics that there's seven books like one two maccabees sirach wisdom bar Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, that are in Catholic Bibles that are not in Protestant Bibles. So here, I'd say a couple things. One, often, traditionally, Protestants assumed a closed Old Testament canon.

A number of Protestant scholars have said that just simply is not the case at all. The canon in Jesus' day, and even after, even in the centuries after, there are still debates among Jews like Song of Songs, Esther, Ecclesiastes. The canon was not closed by any means at all. And you can see this, the Dead Sea Scrolls are a great witness to this. So you clearly have different senses of canon at play. You have the Septuagint and we have the Hebrew text. And that's even kind of a bit convoluted because the, yeah, it used to be common to say, well, there's this Jewish, you know, Palestinian canon and then there's this Hellenistic canon.

And, but that, that really is Luther's argument, right? Well, that's part of it. That only the text written first in Hebrew should count. Well, here's a couple of problems with that. One, Sirach was founded Hebrew in 1897. So even though we have the whole Greek text, because Sirach tells us up front in the prologue that he's translating his grandfather's work that was in Hebrew.

Tobit was found at the Dead Sea Scrolls in Aramaic. The Dead Sea Scroll community clearly had a bigger canon. They seem to have accepted Jubilees and 1 Enoch. So the Jewish canon, number number one was not closed. It wasn't closed till well after Christ. The closing of the canon is an authority question. So Jesus commissioned the apostles and the bishops

with that authority to make those judgments. For Martin Luther, those books were in the canon. They were in the canon. Frankly, it's theological reasons that led Martin Luther to remove them. So 2 Maccabees 1245 implies purgatory because it speaks about the help of baptism and praying for the dead, basically. Well, that runs afoul of his sola fide doctrine, salvation by faith alone. Because if it's by faith alone, why would you need purgatory and things like that?

And so that led him to get rid of, and that was a convenient excuse. He wanted to get rid of James as well. that's right throw jimmy in the fire and i'd say i guess one more thing we tend to think of those books as like a collection yeah if you look at the ancient fathers and how they debated the canon like baruch for example was never questioned they were they were handled case by case it wasn't like what do we do with the deuterocanonicals it's no what do you do with each individual book but isn't it true that jerome questioned the Deuterocanonicals? It's no, what do you do with each individual book? But isn't it true that Jerome questioned the Deuterocanonicals? He did, but they weren't treated as a group.

We think of it that way because of a post-Reformation context. They weren't treated as a group. It was, what do you think of these books? And Jerome did have the concern about what was, he lived in Bethlehem for 30 years and learned Hebrew from the Jews. He did have the concern of what's not written in Hebrew. Maybe we shouldn't accept. And that was kind of Luther's way to kind of resurrect that.

But individual fathers can, I mean, Aquinas honestly denied the Immaculate Conception, right? It's not as if they're not a doctor or a father of the church because they said everything perfectly. But on the whole, they made a contribution or a reliable witness to the great Catholic tradition. So what do you say to, I mean, Protestants who revere the Bible, and there's so many Protestants who I just love,

and they teach me how to love Scripture more. I mean, you almost want to say to them, like, there's more. There's more goodness that you should have. Do you know evangelicals who are beginning to kind of... Oh, totally. Like my friend James from Trinity, he'd echo this a thousand times over. I think when you talk to them, you've got to, one,

you've got to root everything in Christ. You've you gotta show them um because they very often think in terms of a zero-sum game like if i take this piece of a pie and i give it to mary or the saints i take it away from jesus yeah for a catholic it's always it's always a participation paradigm it's like the moon right there's a moon have its own light and bishop brown used to love this i love it too yeah the moon doesn't have its own light. It's derivative. It reflects. It radiates the light of the sun. All of the Catholic faith is Christocentric.

So we're not taking a piece away from it. It's Jesus through the sacraments. It's Jesus through this. It's all Jesus. So I think they have to get clear on that. And I think what happens, and James would say this, I don't feel less evangelical now that I'm Catholic, he would say. I feel more so.

Because it's not that I've denied what I held and rever a review before i've just embraced a fuller version of it could you give us a basic crash course in the um the timeline in the chronology chronology of the bible because and and again i'm sure you've taught this a million times maybe you're bored of it by now but you know as jeff caven says you pick up this the bible times. Maybe you're bored of it by now. But, you know, as Jeff Cavins says, you pick up the Bible, you tell yourself you're going to read it for one whole year, and you get derailed. And a lot of that is because you're not reading the Bible chronologically. So for those who have never even heard of this concept before, they don't know who Jeff Cavins is, help us understand that. Yeah, so the idea behind the Bible Timeline is that it breaks up the whole biblical story in light of 12 periods. You've got 14 books that, that move the narrative forward.

And then you have other books that make more sense in that context. So you would go Genesis Exodus. And then instead of turning to Leviticus, you would go to numbers. And then instead of going to Durham after that, you would go to Joshua and then judges because that, so you get a sense for the whole narrative. And then when you go back,

you would read like Leviticus in context. Or to give you another example, you'd read through 1 and 2 Kings, have a sense for the Davidic kingdom. And then when you go back, you'd read the prophets. And then you realize like Jeremiah, for example, is in the context of that Babylonian destruction. So you can't understand the prophets in their day without understanding the rise and fall of the davidic kingdom and its hope for its restoration uh so that's the genius behind it is that it makes it simple and you get the narrative you get the big picture um the way i've heard someone describe it is it's like they had all of these stories from scripture that they knew yeah they didn't know how to put them together and when they encountered the bible

timeline it's like somebody put a frame around it and they could see it for the first time absolutely you know and you you get to the gospels or like so you would have you go through he goes the gospel of luke and then and then acts and then later you'd read saint paul's letters now that you know the history i think get in a sense for the narrative it just so genesis exodus numbers joshua judges first and second samuel first second kings ezra nehemiah first maccabees luke and acts yes so if you were to read that you would get the whole chronology of the whole biblical storyline before you and so in the in the bible that we produced we've got essays that introduce each of those periods where we we summarize basically what happens and also kind of the key themes to look for so it's kind of a synthesis of the synthesis

and then okay and then you've got them color coordinated yeah to help people memorize them this is just brilliant no i mean that's all cavens that's all cavens and then you've got them color-coordinated to help people memorize them. This is just brilliant. No, and that's all cave-ins. That's all cave-ins. And then the tabs follow those colors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you pull up Isaiah, and the tab will tell you where you are in the story. So you're never lost.

That's so great. It is true, though, isn't it, that, I mean, Catholics typically aren't as into the Scriptures as many of our evangelical brothers and sisters. That's not always the case. Obviously, you can find exceptions. I mean, why is that? And talk about this kind of resurgence that you're seeing among young Catholics. And then I want to ask you to help me love the Bible. And I'll explain what I mean by that in a second.

You know, I joke with my students when I'm like, okay, turn your Bibles to this. I'm like, if you don't have your Bible, just ask your Protestant friend next to you. And then they always chuckle and I chide them a little bit. You know, I think there's a sense in which, like Yves Kangar, a great theologian at the Second Vatican Council spoke of the liturgy as the privileged custodian of sacred tradition. So the liturgy communicates the faith to us. I mean, the typology of Mary, the way the readings are set up, the prayers, like look at the Gloria. It's communicating the faith.

So on the one hand, there's a sense of which Catholics kind of got it easy, right? It's accessible in that way. They encounter it without knowing they're encountering it. Without knowing it. The clarity of the catechism, for example. So I would say like real Bible study at its best subordinates itself to that liturgical reading of scripture. So it's not as if a competition, it's not as if it, but it's going to deepen it. So I think it's, it makes sense. People are busy people. It's hard. I mean,

like life catches up with you, right? You're, you're a dad. I'm a dad. I mean, it's I do this professionally and it's hard to keep up with things. I do think what I've seen among students and among lay people around and priests, when you've got catechism in one hand, I'm sorry, catechism and Bible going together and a deep prayer life, all of a sudden I've seen an evangelical zeal. People catch fire. I do, too. I mean, it's a potent combination. Whereas if you only do the catechism if you only do doctrine and again

there's nothing wrong with doing that maybe you can do that first getting clear on things absolutely i just think that the the it can become sterile and the kind of life-giving force that this is real this is true this isn't something that was made up by a later medieval church that i think is the temptation we have to just explore and blow up and And I say this too, I criticize myself in this area, but I imagine there's a lot of listeners and viewers who are running to the same problem. We like to have our, I love to have my intellect tickled by reading Thomas Aquinas.

I love philosophy. Quite frankly, when I pick up the Bible, I find myself bored a lot of the time. Now I'm embarrassed saying that, but I feel like it's good to be honest so you can do something about it. So do you know what that feels like to pick up the bible and be bored or you don't sound like you do you sound like well but i i've been there i i really it's what do we do about that what do we

do about that um i think i i think having good resources is a place to start just because the the world of the bible the world of biblical scholarship is is so it's a universe unto itself it's so no way it's got it's like walking into the bar scene of biblical scholarship is so, it's a universe unto itself. It's like walking into the bar scene at Star Wars, right? I mean, it's like, where am I? So if you're not careful, that can happen. I think if you get the big picture, get some good resources, and you don't bite off too much at one time, then be not afraid, in the words of JP too. Yeah. I also have this idea that people think they should feel a certain way when they read scripture. And so when they read scripture and do not have that feeling, they conclude that this was an unfruitful event.

Like they feel like when I read scripture in the morning, I'm just going to feel inspired. And if they don't feel it, they feel like they've failed and they stop reading the scriptures. I think that's been my case sometimes in the past. And so now I find myself reading the scriptures out of duty and praying like, holy, maybe that's a big part of it too. I think, honest to God, I think a lot of us, we're kind of practical atheists. Like we're Catholics and we are bloody all about the church's teaching on human sexuality and the sacraments and we can debate. But do you believe that God loves you? Right. Right. And do you believe it's the inspired word of God? And part of what you bring to it. Don't say yes too quickly. That's what I want to say to someone. Yeah, no, don't

say yes too quickly. And in the, I mean, in terms of the Catholic view of the Bible of inspiration and what I like to tell students with like dogmas of the faith, often we communicate what the faith is not more clearly, but the faith itself is a mystery. So we reject kind of a dictation theory where the human author is like a robot and God, he just goes into a trance and God picks his arm up. That's not the faith at all. We also reject kind of a divine approval theory where the human author just goes and God says, oh, that'll do. I'll give it a stamp of approval. The mystery of the scriptures, it's human and divine. It's like the incarnation, fully human, fully divine, but it's not. So I think when you get clear on

what the faith is not, but then swim in the ocean of the mystery of what the faith is, when you believe this is the word of God, then you care about the details. That's been my experience. And I've also, I remember being in the thick of grad school and you're doing this at a hyper academic level and it can become something that it's not right um so it's the it's the head and heart balance um it's the not just there and then but the here and now it's it's what God said and what God says in the present it's a living word um so it's not an easy issue but uh I really think if we're going to be Thomas, to be honest with you, I mean,

like you look at St. Thomas, you look at like the beginning of the Summa, things he says in his, he wrote commentaries on so many of the biblical books. He really, it can really be argued, right?

I think rightfully so that he was principally a biblical theologian. He thinks the Summa is what you would have studied before you came to his Bible classes. And so this was important, necessary, but propodutic for diving into Scripture as like the holy of holies because only Scripture is divinely authored. No church document, no saint is, we say, divine authorship. So I think if you just look at the witness of the saints, so there's a need to read scripture with good you know tools historical linguistic but also to read it on our knees to bring faith and reason together and to

read it in light of faith uh and even when we have questions so i i think um i think to back up from what we said earlier to have a sense for what what i like to do is in reading it canonically is really read it entirely in light of, um, the ancient Jews of Jesus day just before and, and see Jesus, the climax, and even looking back at the, like the stories of Genesis, um, the, the sacrifices to be really attentive to obviously how the fathers understood this, but how did the ancient Jews understand these things? So kind of a center of gravity with Jesus looking backward and looking forward, if that makes sense, that's helped me immensely. So you're not just trying to like reconstruct where was Eden or something like that.

What did this mean to the ancient Jews? And how does Jesus and Paul want me to see that in light of the fullness of reality in Jesus himself? I think once you kind of dig your heels in 200 BC, 280, and let that be the center of of gravity backward and forward. That's been a powerful combination for me. That makes sense. Okay. So you've got different Bible studies. This one Romans has just come out. It might be helpful for those listening who want to love the Bible again,

not maybe to jump into the big Bible study that Jeff put out. Is there, is there one like this that you would recommend? It's not going to take like eight months to get through necessarily. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of great ones right now. And there's a lot of people doing a lot of great things.

This is eight episodes, eight 30-minute episodes with a company. Yeah, that's easy. You're going to give that to me, right? Well, you bet, man. They just, you know, like, they essentially are just so good at the aesthetics. They are good.

They are very good, I have to say. Not overwhelming. So I'd say with Romans, this is a letter that Catholics are often intimidated by because I think it's the, it's the Protestant letter. I mean, this is the letter that kicked off the reformation.

So famously Romans three 28, this is where Martin Luther gets his doctrine of sola fide or Paul says you're saved by faith and not works the law. And we engage those questions. I mean, so here's where that phrase works. The law shows up in a document that that's the scrolls called 4q mmt the mix of maasei ha torah and and that's the only two

places in galatians romans and there and in the ditsy scrolls it seems to mean jewish ritual right uh works a calendar ceremonial in order it doesn't seem to mean to be moral so so we we dig up some of those things. I would say, too, when you get into Paul, especially Romans, what's Paul's gospel? It's a gospel of divine sonship. I think we sell Christianity too short. We make it sound like it's a political or moral thing.

Just be a good boy scout or girl scout. It's like, no, how much of the divine life do you want to share in? Do you realize what God has done? And Paul gets this, that it's becoming a son or a daughter in the Son, such that God the done? And Paul gets this, that it's becoming a son or a daughter in the son, such that God, the father, looked down upon you and upon me

and love you and love me as he loves his only begotten son. I mean, that should give us Holy Ghost box, right? I mean, that's, it's just, I mean, that's, it's just crazy. But when you see a salvation, it's not just a divine acquittal. It's not just like get out of jail free.

It's like you've been adopted in the family. And even adoption, one of my heroes, Matthias Schaben, I did my dissertation on him dissertation on him adoption doesn't even go far enough because it's the divinization it's a fusion of divine life exactly where you become a son or daughter in him um i think our secular world needs to hear this the yeah the moral law is part of being a christian but it's about union with Jesus. And when you say yes to Jesus, other no's follow. Just like when you said yes to your wife, other no's follow, but the no's are not first. It's- It follows from the relationship. Totally. And you stop thinking minimalistically, what's the bare minimum I got to do to avoid hell? It's like, how much of the divine life do you want? How much of your bride do you want? All of it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gosh,

that's beautiful. All right. One final question, because we're going to wrap up and you're going to get in the boobah. Time's going too fast here. Fantastic, dude. beautiful all right one final question because we're going to wrap up and you're going to get it it's time's going to be fast fantastic dude all right one final question how uh how would you recommend people pray with the scriptures and i know we kind of touched upon that but as far as developing a prayer life i'm wanting to be more consistent coming up with a prayer rule and these sorts of things this is a very basic question how would you advise people to begin doing that and maybe incorporate scripture into that prayer rule? Well, if I could just say two things at once, kind of why scripture? St. Ambrose has got a great line that we talk to God in our prayer

and he talks to us in scripture. So on the one hand, there's many ways to receive the Lord's word to us, but there's kind of an objective sense, if if you will of reading scripture i mean so the lord will give us low you know collocutions and things like that absolutely but we're naive to think that we shouldn't read his holy word um i i'd say two things one i think meant with my college since i work with um mental prayer that kind of quiet prayer where especially if you can before the blessed sacrament it's not always possible but but where you're listening, uh, where you're really listening for the Lord's word for you and, and, and what needs to change in my life, where, where are you calling me? It's been said, I think rightfully so that you can't persist in that kind of prayer and

serious sin. The silence is too loud. Either you'll stop sinning or you'll stop praying, but you can't do both for very long. So if you can, if you can muster 10, 20, 30 minutes of that, and I know we're busy. I love Jeff Caven's line. There's like, well, what are you making time for? Yeah. Right. Because the things that are most important to us, we make time for, and I will say it's easy to talk about God. It's easy to do the theology thing, talk Ecclesial politics and this, that, and the other. But if you really believe I'm talking to myself, if you really believe, you would pray.

You would pray. Prayer is a great act of belief. We have that phrase, are you practicing your faith? There's a sense in which if you're not practicing it, it's going to erode and wither. Lewis has got some great lines in mere Christianity that neither this belief nor any other will remain alive unless it's fed.

That's great. So I think all I want you to make time for prayer where you're listening. I love that. I think with scripture, um, I can not take, not bite off too much at one time because I think when you just try to like read the whole thing,

it becomes like a newspaper, right? Yeah. You're discouraged because you failed and you don't go back to it and you don't go slow enough. Like the, think about the, the humility of God's word.

I think if we think of the incarnation, we think Caesar Augustus is coming. If we think of a God inspired book, we think like maybe Shakespeare, maybe C cicero yeah we're not prepared for the greediness but what does philippians say that though he's in the form of god he emptied himself to get on the form of a slave even to point of death death on christ therefore god highly exalt him so think about the humility of the word of god in the incarnation and be prepared for the humility of the word of god in sacred scripture, the greatness of it. That's great.

And then what is the best Bible translation? I mean, the best one is the one you read. Good answer. Every translation, different translation philosophies. And I wouldn't get into like good or bad or good because it just depends on what ends, what goals you're trying to achieve. So if it's to study study academically you want as literal as you can but it might be really clunky and awkward english right so uh there's always a balance between that the great adventure we've got the rsvce second edition the one that ignatius had

the maroon one um and and that's that's that's kind of a classic catholic uh translation um i you know there's um they all have but you have like dynamic equivalence and then what's the opposite of that well kind of a literal literal the dynamic equivalence what conveys the meaning like a new jerusalem bible right yeah so so the and the problem is then you might well take our passover example right so or or i'll give you two examples the passover one where you might have the greek word pascha but translators when they think it's the lamb will say passover lamb instead of just translate Passover. And then you don't realize the nuances of the word Passover or take the word

brother in Hebrew. Um, like if you look at Genesis 13 and 14, you've got lot who is clearly Abraham's nephew, but most translations will just, this one included will describe him as, as Abraham's kinsmen. Well,

because they know he's not literally his brother, but the Hebrew is we are akim we are brothers but then you don't know that brother is used more broad so like in the gospels when you see jesus brothers well if you have the semitic backdrop you realize well brother is used pretty broadly it doesn't necessitate biological siblings yeah yeah so a literal translation would help you academically gotcha but it also might confuse you if you don't know what you're doing because like well i thought i just read that he's his nephew how can he be his brother so if you're doing because like, well, I thought I just read that he's his nephew. How can he be his brother? So if you're doing more of a study, a literal translation would help.

And if you can't read that and you're much, you know, you feel more comfortable in your Jerusalem Bible or even the message, goodness. I don't know. Maybe not that one. But, you know, the best Bible translation is what you'll read. It's what you'll read. If you're trying to study to compare multiple ones, it's fine. But honestly, I mean, the Hebrew and the Greek, they're helpful, but they're also tools.

So it's a danger to think like that gives you unmitigated access to the word of God. Because passages that are tricky in English, they tend to be tricky in Hebrew. So it's not magic. It's not like, you know, it's just one step closer, but it's not magic. So I honestly think if you have good resources, you'll be alerted to the nuances you need. Like the Passover thing I just mentioned, with Scott Hahn or Petrie or Barber, there's cave-ins, there's so many good resources out there. Get a hold of some good resources, pray while you read, read slow, take your time, and have the catechism at the hand, and frequent the sacraments, and let the whole thing kind of

burn together, and stay the catechism of the hand and, and infrequent the sacraments and let the whole thing kind of burn together and stay the course. Right. Like you're going to learn violin or whatever, which I'm not a musician, but, um, you know,

tell me it's difficult. You get excited. Right. And then new year's resolutions. Totally. It's not about February. Yeah. Stay the course,

catch that second win. Yeah. And you'll feel the fruits of it, but it's not going to be every time. It's not always be riveting, but anything worth having in life, it doesn't come with sacrifice. Why this be different amen finally where can people learn more about andrew swafford your fantastic books here the different works you're doing

yeah well so i write for ascension's bible blog monthly once or twice a month uh you can follow me on twitter at andrew underscore swafford and lowercase andrew underscore swafford um my wife uh sarah Swofford has a pretty thriving ministry. Sometimes we speak together. Would you throw the airport into there for the Uber here? We're going to get, we're going to multitask. So your Uber will come on time. Continue. Yeah. She has an amazing way. Yeah. So we, we, we love to evangelize together. You know, one of the most powerful things that we did, um, I taught in Florence, we have a bed, like that's a study abroad program at spring of 2018. We sent a professor over there,

about 50 students every semester. And we got to kind of live really close quarters with these students. Had my whole family over there. And it was, you know, we have great, Benedictine students are amazing. But they also have their own, I mean, the same issues of the culture,

in fact, all of us. And so it really, and we've always done this, but it really, really did a fire for us to kind of evangelize together. Because it's been a lot of tag teamwork. You know, she speaks, some of the kids, and vice versa. done this, but it really, really did a fire for us to kind of evangelize together. Because it's been a lot of tag team work. She speaks with the kids and vice versa. We've got five at home. But yeah, so speaking together or administering to college students together, or even my oldest is 13.

He's going to be 14 soon. I mean, they were some of our greatest evangelists. The combination of kind of normal but different, whether it's a student or the kids or us uh you know people take notice awesome we just booked your uber look at that look how efficient great thank you so much for being here super great of you i know you got up super early did you have to take off school for this i did you know i did i actually when i originally i thought we were on spring break but spring break for us is next week so my students are now they're pretty happy about it thanks so much uh man i just thank you for having me it's an honor to be here and thank you for all

your ministry whether whether it's the the porn stuff or all the other postulates the apologetics they just getting the catholic faith out i mean you are an incredible witness so thank you for your work all right god bless god bless all right we're going to take a pause from this fantastic discussion with dr swafford and if you want to watch the post-show wrap-up bit of this video, go to patreon.com slash mattfradd to watch the rest of this discussion. By the way, we do this with all of the discussions we have. We always have these post-show wrap-up clips that are available just to our patrons. If you want to become a patron, go to patreon.com slash mattfradd.

In addition to all those post-show wrap-up videos, you'll get things like this, pints with Aquinas Bierstein, signed books, stickers, an exclusive audio library, and much else besides. And it really helps us do this work we're doing. Patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. Thanks.