Pints With Aquinas - 24: Are you cool if I get hammered drunk?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 24. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? Well, in today's episode, we'll ask St. Thomas the question, um, as a Christian, should I be drinking this beer and when does it become a sin, if ever? Great to have you back with us here at Pints with Aquinas. I thought it was high time that we addressed this issue of alcohol, since the whole name of this podcast kind of revolves around it. Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol? And if not, when does it become a sin?

Starting point is 00:01:00 Is it a mortal sin? And what about the sins we commit while drunk? Are we kind of culpable for them as well as the drunkenness or just the drunkenness? That's what we're going to discuss today. And I'm excited to do that. I was friends with a young lady at one point in my life who belonged to what's called the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. Now, this is a pretty, forgive me if you're one of these, but I found it to be a rather extreme, and dare I say it, unbiblical strand of Protestantism. Obviously, they believe many things that I believe in, but there were things

Starting point is 00:01:46 like girls should never wear pants and drums you should not play. You should not listen to music with drums in them. And dancing is completely forbidden. And alcoholism, no, not alcoholism, sorry, just alcohol, drinking alcohol is a sin and you should not drink it. is a sin and you should not drink it. Well, naturally, my first thought, and I expressed this to my friend, I said, didn't Jesus drink wine and stuff? What about that, like, when he turned it into wine? What was that about? But believe it or not, they have answers to these things. Not good answers, but answers and something to the effect of, no, no, this was, Not good answers, but answers and something to the effect of, no, no, this was the word for wine that they used just kind of meant grape juice or this or that. Different people have different answers, but that's essentially what they said.

Starting point is 00:02:36 So, I'm actually on this website right now. I just looked up what different Christian denominations had to say about alcohol. This is Faith Independent Baptist Church in Alabama, and it says, does the Bible teach abstinence or merely moderation of alcoholic beverages? While most agree that it is wrong to get drunk, is it really a sin to have an occasional social drink, a little wine with a special meal, champagne at a wedding reception, something to settle the nerves, etc. Bible-believing Americans were once in near unanimous agreement that Christians ought not to drink alcoholic beverages. Now, like many other lines of distinction, this one seems to be falling by the wayside. Was alcohol just a traditional and cultural taboo, or are there truly Bible-based as well as rational reasons to not drink alcohol?

Starting point is 00:03:27 Okay, so that's a pretty fair enough opening paragraph. And then it goes on to give 10 biblical and rational warnings about alcohol. Okay. And of course, there's good reasons to not drink heavily and maybe not to drink at all, depending on your circumstances and surroundings. not drink heavily and maybe not to drink at all, depending on your circumstances and surroundings. But then at the end, it says this, basically saying you shouldn't. You know, we shouldn't associate with evil. That's their argument. And there's a quote here from Sir W. Grinnell, who said, alcohol has wrecked more lives, starved more children, and murdered more women than any other factor. Why would a Christian desire, and then they say this, the authors of the site, why would a Christian desire to promote it or

Starting point is 00:04:13 associate with it? But of course, guilt by association is sort of a fallacious argument. And of course, when it's usually offered, it's in relation to a person. You know, you believed in this, that was obviously wrong. Therefore, this statement or this thing you now believe must also be wrong. Okay. That's kind of what they're doing here with alcohol, you know, this Sir Grinful bloke. Alcohol has wrecked more lives, starved more children, murdered more women. Well, no, it hasn't. People who were drunk did that. We could say the same thing about cars. I mean, how many car accidents occur every year in your country, if you're listening overseas? This country in America is a car wreck. They've wrecked more lives. They've starved

Starting point is 00:04:58 children. And maybe what we mean by that is the father's now out of a job and the mother can not really adequately provide for her children, you know. Why would a Christian desire to promote cars or be associated with them? Maybe that's not the best analogy, but I think it's okay. So, what does St. Thomas Aquinas have to say about this? What we're going to talk about is, as I said in the beginning, three things. We're going to talk about whether or not it's a sin to drink alcohol. And then we're going to talk about, you know, can you get drunk and what are the ramifications spiritually for that? And then finally, okay, if I am drunk and commit serious sins, am I guilty for those sins? All right. So, this is from the second part of the second part of the

Starting point is 00:05:47 Summa Theologica, question 149, article three. Now, here's the objection. It would seem that the use of wine is altogether unlawful, for without wisdom, a man cannot be in the state of salvation, since it is written, God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. And further on in wisdom, it says, by wisdom, they were healed. Whosoever have pleased thee, O Lord, from the beginning, now the use of wine is a hindrance to wisdom, for it's written in Ecclesiastes, Now, the use of wine is a hindrance to wisdom, for it's written in Ecclesiastes, I thought in my heart to withdraw my flesh from wine, that I might turn my mind to wisdom. Therefore, wine drinking is altogether unlawful. And Aquinas actually offers three objections to drinking alcohol at all.

Starting point is 00:06:41 Now, since Aquinas is sitting down with you and me and he's having a beer, you probably already know what his answer is, but why don't we go ahead and read it anyway? So, Aquinas' answer to this objection and to those different Christian denominations that forbid it entirely would be this, quote, on the contrary, the apostle says in 1 Timothy 5.23, do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy frequent infirmities, end quote. And it is written in Sirach 31.36, quote, Wine drunken with moderation is the joy of the soul and the heart. Now, says Thomas, I answer that no meat or drink considered in itself is unlawful, according to Matthew 15.11, which says, Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man. Wherefore, it is not unlawful

Starting point is 00:07:49 to drink wine as such, yet it may become unlawful accidentally. Now, just back up for a moment. I'm not sure how many of these podcasts you've listened to. if you have listened to them, you know what Aquinas means by accidentally, huh? He doesn't mean, oh, it just accidentally happened in that sense, okay? When Thomas talks about accidents, he means it in relation to substances, okay? So, if you think of a door, what is a door, okay? And we might come up with some kind of definition that's suitable for that. Okay, and we might come up with some kind of definition that's suitable for that. Well, then the color doesn't affect that definition, does it? The size, so long as a man can walk through it, I suppose, or depending on the door we're talking about, doesn't affect the substance. These are accidental properties. And so, what Aquinas is saying here is that alcohol, drinking that in and of itself, it's not a sin, but it can become unlawful accidentally. So, not in the very action of consuming alcohol, but kind of something peripheral to that act. So, this is what he says.

Starting point is 00:09:03 but kind of something peripheral to that act. So this is what he says. Now, so it can become unlawful accidentally. This is sometimes owing to a circumstance on the part of the drinker, either because he is easily the worse for taking wine or because he is bound by a vow not to drink wine. Sometimes it results from the mode of drinking, because to wit, he exceeds the measure in drinking, and sometimes it's on account of others who would be scandalized thereby. So, it's not wrong in and of itself, but it can be

Starting point is 00:09:37 wrong accidentally, right, externally to the act for these reasons. And what are these reasons that he lists? Number one, okay, well, because maybe when you drink, you become worse, even if it's just a little bit, you know, maybe you become grouchy or moody or, you know, something like that. The second reason he gives is it can be wrong accidentally because maybe we're bound by a vow not to drink. So, if you drink it, it's wrong. Not because drinking is wrong, but because breaking your vow to not drink is wrong. The third answer he gives is sometimes it results from the mode of drinking because to wit, he exceeds the measure in drinking. So, drinking in and of itself isn't wrong, but when you have one too many, it is. And then finally, he says, sometimes it's on account of others who would be scandalized thereby. Okay. So, that's good. I mean, I'm trying to think of an example here. You know, suppose you're a youth minister, yeah?

Starting point is 00:10:47 It would probably be inappropriate, you know, to show up. Maybe a teen invites you to their graduation party or something, right? And no one else is drinking, but you bring a bottle of vodka and you just do a couple of shots, you know, like, you're not drunk, but it's kind of fun. Well, that could actually be rather scandalizing. And so, for that reason, it would be a sin accidentally. Now, in regards to the objection we heard in the beginning, right? That, you know, we need wisdom, okay? But wine is a hindrance to wisdom. Therefore, drinking wine is altogether unlawful. Aquinas says this, a man may have wisdom in two ways. First, in a general way, according as it is sufficient for salvation. And in this way, it is required in

Starting point is 00:11:32 order to have wisdom, not that a man abstain altogether from wine, but that he abstain from its immoderate use. Secondly, a man may have wisdom in some degree of perfection, and in this way, in order to receive wisdom perfectly, it is requisite for certain persons that they abstain altogether from wine, and this depends on circumstances of certain persons and places. All right, now let's talk about whether or not getting drunk is a mortal sin. And we should probably stop here for a moment and just briefly explain what Catholics mean by a mortal sin. I know we have a lot of evangelical listeners. I think we have some non-Catholic, non-Christian, I should say, listeners. And maybe there's some Catholics out there who are not really sure what a mortal sin

Starting point is 00:12:19 is. In 1 John chapter 5, St. John differentiates between a sin that leads to death and a sin that does not lead to death. In some translations, a sin that is mortal and a sin that is not mortal. So, a mortal sin, for it to be a mortal sin, has to meet three conditions. It has to be a grave matter, right? It's a serious sin, okay? The object has to be serious. Secondly, you have to intend to do it, right? Not out of reflex, not out of habit, not out of whatever. You have to intend to do it. And thirdly, you have to know that it's wrong. So, you have to know that it's wrong, it has to be wrong, and you have to do it anyway. Okay? That's essentially what we mean by mortal sin. And of course, as Catholics, we believe,

Starting point is 00:13:12 because we think the Bible teaches, that to commit a mortal sin and to die in that state without repenting is a very serious thing. And it means that we are cut off from God and we'll spend eternity in hell. I don't like that teaching either, but since I think Christ teaches it, I believe it. So, let's see what Aquinas says here. He says, the sin of drunkenness, as stated in the foregoing article, consists in the immoderate use and concupiscence of wine. Now, this may happen to a man in three ways. First, so that he knows not the drink to be immoderate and intoxicating. And then, drunkenness may be without sin.

Starting point is 00:14:00 Now, I've got to stop here and tell you a story. I used to live in Canada. Shout out to all my Canadian listeners. I love you. I you a story. I used to live in Canada. Shout out to all my Canadian listeners. I love you. I love your country. I used to live in Ottawa. And I used to play at this English pub up the road in a little town called Ashton. Well, I was leaving back home.

Starting point is 00:14:19 And so, we decided to do kind of like one final gig in this Ashton pub. And so, I took my guitar up there. A bunch of friends from Ottawa came out and I was playing. All right. Now, unbeknownst to me, even though I had just a couple of drinks, they were spiking them heavily. This was their way of saying, I don't know, like, you're welcome. It's been great to have you. Well, I didn't know that I was drinking drinks that were this high

Starting point is 00:14:46 in alcohol content. So, in that sense, I wasn't culpable for getting drunk. All right. And so, this is Aquinas' first point. So, if he knows not that the drink to be immoderate and intoxicating and then drunkenness may be without sin. All right. And then he says, secondly, so that he perceives the drink to be immoderate, but without knowing it to be intoxicating, and then drunkenness may be without sin. All right. And then he says, secondly, so that he perceives the drink to be immoderate, but without knowing it to be intoxicating, and then drunkenness may involve a venial sin. Thirdly, it may happen that a man is well aware that the drink is immoderate and intoxicating, and yet he would rather be drunk than abstain from drink. Such a man is a drunkard, properly speaking, because morals take their species not from things that occur accidentally and beside

Starting point is 00:15:32 the intention, but from that which is directly intended. And if you haven't listened to my podcast on what makes an act good or evil, go listen to that because we delve into that a lot. He says, on this way, drunkenness is a mortal sin because then a man willingly and knowingly deprives himself of the use of reason, whereby he performs virtuous deeds and avoids sin. And thus, he sins mortally by running the risk of falling into sin. For Ambrose says, we learn that we should shun drunkenness, which prevents us from avoiding grievous sins. For the things we avoid when sober, we unknowingly commit through drunkenness. Therefore, drunkenness, properly speaking, is a mortal sin. Okay, can't get around that, guys.

Starting point is 00:16:28 You might want to get around that. Maybe you love the idea of this podcast. Maybe you have accidentally thought that, you know, Matt Fradd is cool with you drinking too much or that St. Thomas Aquinas really is not that big of a deal. Well, Thomas Aquinas disagrees with you if you hold to that position. And he says this for two reasons, doesn't he? One is that in drinking, we deprive ourselves from reason. Okay. And secondly, that we then run the risk of committing other sins now that we don't have all of our wits about us.

Starting point is 00:16:59 Okay. Now let's look at the final point I said we would do today, and that's that, you know, whether when we're drunk and commit sins, does that somehow excuse those sins? Are we culpable for those sins? And the objection that Thomas Aquinas raises, this is in Article 4, it would seem that drunkenness does not excuse from sin. Ooh, are you listening? Are you listening? Check that out. I'm sure you know by now that whenever Thomas sets up an objection, it means he's going to respond with the contrary point of view. So, the objection here is, listen, it would seem that drunkenness does not excuse from sin. But wait a minute, isn't that what you thought Aquinas' position would be?

Starting point is 00:17:49 Let's let him finish his objection here. For the philosopher says that the drunkard deserves double punishment. Therefore, drunkenness aggravates a sin instead of excusing from it. Well, let's see what Aquinas has to say. According to Augustine, lot was to be excused from incest on account of drunkenness. I answer that two things are to be observed in drunkenness as stated above Article 1, namely the resulting defect and the preceding act. On the part of the resulting defect whereby the use of reason is fettered, drunkenness may be an excuse for sin, insofar as it causes an act to be involuntary through ignorance. But on part of the preceding act, a distinction would seem necessary

Starting point is 00:18:47 because if the drunkenness that results from that act be without sin, the subsequent sin is entirely excused from fault, as perhaps in the case of Lot. So, what he's saying there is, you remember I mentioned a moment ago that I actually got drunk that night when people were spiking my drinks. Now, I planned on drinking in moderation. I mean, I was playing a set. I didn't want to drink too much. So, if I had have then went out and committed mortal sin, Thomas is saying you would not be culpable either for the drunkenness or the mortal sin. In a similar way to why people beneath the age of reason, whenever that is, maybe it's six, maybe it's seven, who knows, we don't say they're culpable for grave sins because they're beneath

Starting point is 00:19:38 the age of reason. And when one is drunk, he is not being reasonable, right? He cannot think things through properly. That's why it is a mortal sin if we do it with full intention, knowing that it's wrong. But if we do so accidentally, now don't let yourself off the hook here. I think most of us know when we drink too much, we are culpable for that. And I think in those cases, it is a mortal sin. But if by accident, then the sins that we commit while drunk, we're not culpable for them. Aquinas continues, if however, the preceding act was sinful, the person is not altogether excused from the subsequent sin, because the latter is rendered voluntary through the voluntariness of

Starting point is 00:20:27 the preceding act, inasmuch as it was through doing something unlawful that he fell into the subsequent sin. Nevertheless, the resulting sin is diminished, even as the character of voluntariness is diminished. Wherefore, Augustine says that Lot's guilt is to be measured not by the incest, but by his drunkenness. So two things he's saying. If we accidentally get drunk, and again, I think that's very, very, very, very, very rare unless someone's spiking your drink, then obviously you are not culpable for being drunk, nor are you culpable for the sins that you may commit while drunk. But if you choose to get drunk, and let's face it, I think you and me, we're Catholics, okay, or evangelicals, or

Starting point is 00:21:12 maybe you're not a Christian, but maybe you think to yourself, yeah, getting drunk's wrong. I don't want to do that. It's not good to deprive yourself of the faculty of reason. Okay. We don't usually go to a party and say, I'm going to get drunk tonight. But we kind of know, I think, somehow deep down whether we will or not. And maybe we know that by the amount of beer we're taking. Maybe we're taking beer and vodka. You really do know you're getting drunk. Maybe you don't want to admit that to yourself when you're on your way to the party, but you kind of know you are. And so, if you're responsible for your drunkenness, that is a mortal sin if you do so intentionally and knowing that it's wrong. And then you are guilty for the sins that you commit after being drunk, but those sins are diminished.

Starting point is 00:21:59 Okay. So, let's say you get drunk. Okay. And then let's say you look at pornography. Let's say you get drunk, okay? And then let's say you look at pornography. You're guilty, okay, for the sin of drunkenness, all right? You need to confess that this is a mortal sin. But we wouldn't say that the pornography necessarily that you looked at was a mortal sin. Why? Because, again, you didn't have the faculty of reason. So even though, of course, pornography is a gravely

Starting point is 00:22:26 wrong act, okay, if one commits it, you know, without his full wits being about him, then, as Aquinas says, that sin is diminished. So it might be a venial sin. So wherefore Augustine, this is what Aquinas finishes here, Lot's guilt is to be measured not by the incest, but by his drunkenness. Was he culpable for his drunkenness or not? And if he wasn't, then the drunkenness wasn't a sin and the incest wasn't a sin. So, I hope that's great. I hope that's been a help for you today. Let's be examples to the people around us. You know, let's set the bar high, guys. This isn't a matter of, I'm going to go out tonight, I'm only going to have five beers because I know I won't be totally drunk. No, like, let's just

Starting point is 00:23:15 drink in moderation. Let's be examples to our friends. It's kind of a sad thing. You know, when I was a teenager, we'd get drunk and we'd'd have these big deep heart to hearts with each other. It was like the only way we could be real with each other was by being intoxicated. How sad is that? So I think you and I should set an example that we can have fun and that we can have interesting conversations without drinking too much. So stay classy, friends. God bless you. Couple of things I want to ask you to do for me, if you would. Number one, please rate Pints with Aquinas if you like it.

Starting point is 00:23:53 If you hate it, you know what? Just don't worry about rating it. It's cool. It's cool. Five-star review. Please rate it. That would help me and it would help future listeners.

Starting point is 00:24:02 Why is that? Because if people type stuff into iTunes podcasts like Theology or St. Thomas Aquinas, this podcast will only come up to the top if it's got lots of ratings. And so you could really help me out by rating this podcast. Secondly, please follow me, Matt Fradd. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram. And also you might visit the site pintswithaquinas.com. Until next time, God bless you. to carry you and I would give my whole life to carry you

Pints With Aquinas - 24: Are you cool if I get hammered drunk?

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