Pints With Aquinas - 35: Should we pray to the saints in heaven?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 35. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask St. Thomas the question, Do the saints in heaven pray for us? And may we pray to them. Good to have you with us again at Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. I want to thank those who reviewed the podcast this past week, and I have selected five people to win a copy of my new book, Pints with Aquinas, 50-plus deep thoughts from the angelic doctor. Now, if you want to know whether you won or not, whether you won or not, I need you to do this. Go to pintswithaquinas.com and the five winners will be written up the top in red. If that's one of you, you can email me at mattatpintswithaquinas.com

Starting point is 00:01:16 with your address and I will post you a copy of my new book. You'll have it just in time for Christmas. If you didn't win, I'm sorry, but you can buy the book from Amazon right now. It's $9.95. Okay, enough of me trying to sell you stuff. We are going to talk about the saints in heaven, whether they pray for us and whether we might pray to them. So, what I'll do is we'll read what Aquinas has to say, and then I might give somewhat of an apologetic for why Christians pray to the saints and what that means. Now, I understand we have many Protestant listeners, and I want to thank you again for listening and being open-minded enough to put up with me and St. Thomas Aquinas week in and week out, no doubt there will be things that we disagree about. But I wonder if you'd be open to this being true. You know, as a Protestant, it seems to me that you should go where the Bible leads you,

Starting point is 00:02:18 right? It's not like you have some sort of authority that can say to you what the Bible says as a Protestant. You believe that you can interpret it, look at the tradition and come to your own conclusion. So, here's somewhat of a soft sell approach. You know, you should be open to, you know, you can remain a Protestant, right? And yet, except if the Bible teaches it, if we've got good reason to think that it's true, that we can pray to the saints in heaven. Now, maybe right now that sounds like a ridiculous assertion, but hopefully by the end of the podcast, it won't. Okay. But either way,

Starting point is 00:02:58 please stick with us, whether you agree with the Catholic church's position or not, because you'll learn some things. And if you still disagree with the Catholic Church's position or not, because you'll learn some things. And if you still disagree with the Catholic Church's position at the end of this podcast, well, at least you'll know what it is you disagree with, and you might be able to argue with Catholics better about it. Okay, so this comes from the second part of the second part of the Summa Theologiae. Question 83, Article 11, whether the saints in heaven pray for us. Now, I'm thinking about right now what I should do, whether I should read some objections. I think that's what I'll do. I'll read some of the objections Aquinas sets himself, see his responses, then read his main answer, and then I'll explain how I see things.

Starting point is 00:03:53 Okay. All right. Let's look at a couple of objections here. This is objection two. Let's look at a couple of objections here. This is objection two. The saints conform their will to God perfectly so that they will only what God wills. Now, what God wills is always fulfilled. Therefore, it would be useless for the saints to pray for us. And Aquinas in one sentence responds, the saints impetrate whatever God wishes to take place through their prayers, and they pray for that which they deem will be granted through their prayers according to God's will. Another objection here. Further, just as the saints in heaven are above, so are those in purgatory, for they no longer sin. Now, those in purgatory do not pray for us. On the contrary, we pray for them. Therefore, neither do the saints in heaven pray for us. Okay, side note, if you're wondering, if you're a new listener to Pints with Aquinas,

Starting point is 00:05:09 and you're like, okay, it's talking about purgatory, I'm checking out. You know, I did a whole podcast on Pints, sorry, on purgatory, which I'd invite you to listen to. Let me see what number it was so you can go back and check it out. This is great podcast material, isn't it, when I go silent? Ah, number four. So, it's the fourth episode, Does Purgatory Really Exist? So, if you haven't listened to that podcast and you're curious about purgatory, go listen to episode four of Pints with Aquinas. But essentially, the argument is, look, those in purgatory don't pray for us, okay? So, therefore, neither do the saints in heaven pray for us. And Aquinas responds,

Starting point is 00:05:53 those who are in purgatory, though they are above us on account of their impeccability, yet they are below us as to the pains which they suffer. And in this respect, they are not in a condition to pray, but rather in a condition that requires us to pray for them. Okay. Let's see here. Objection four. Further, if the saints in heaven pray for us, the prayers of the higher saints would be more efficacious. And so, we ought not to implore the help of the lower saints' prayers, Aquinas responds, that are above them. Wherefore, we ought to pray not only to the higher, but also to the lower saints, else we should have to implore the mercy of God alone. Nevertheless, it happens sometimes that prayers addressed to a saint of lower degree are more efficacious, either because he is implored with greater devotion or because God wishes to make known His sanctity. Let's think of an analogy here,

Starting point is 00:07:08 should we? There are certain people who have miraculous gifts. Some people have the gift of healing, or at least are purported to. And I think generally speaking as Christians, we accept that in principle. So, if this objection worked, it would follow that we shouldn't seek this person's prayers for us, for healing. We should only go to God, you know, because God is clearly infinitely higher than this person with this gift of healing. And yet, we recognize that those, quote-unquote, above us in the spiritual life, or who may have certain gifts we do not, are called to help those beneath them. And in the same way, we can pray to a saint of lower stature, I'm not even sure how we'd figure out what that is, and because it is God's will that inferior beings should be helped by all of those who are above them. Okay, let's look at the fifth objection.

Starting point is 00:08:13 Further, the soul of Peter is not Peter. If therefore the souls of the saints pray for us, so long as they are separated from their bodies, we ought not to call upon Saint Peter, but on his soul to pray for us. Yet the church does the contrary. The saints, therefore, do not pray for us, at least before the resurrection. Aquinas responds, It is because the saints, while living, merited to pray for us that we invoke them under the names by which they were known in this life, and by which they are better known to us, and also in order to indicate our belief in the resurrection, according to the saying of Exodus 3.6, I am the God of Abraham. So, you and I are body and soul composites. When we die, even if we are before God in heaven, there is something that is not

Starting point is 00:09:08 yet perfect. And that is before the final judgment, we will not yet have our bodies. And so that's where that objection is coming from. All right. Why don't we go ahead and And look at what Aquinas says. It is written in 2 Maccabees 15.14, This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. Now, of course, if you are an evangelical Protestant, you are unlikely to accept 2 Maccabees, and I'm not going to get into a big discussion about why I think you should, but let's continue because I think the argument will still stand

Starting point is 00:09:51 without it. As Jerome says, the error of Vilanteus consisted in saying that while we live, we can pray one for another, but that after we are dead, none of our prayers for others can be heard, seeing that not even the martyr's prayers are granted when they pray for their blood to be avenged. But this is absolutely false because since prayers offered for others proceed from charity, as stated above, the greater the charity of the saints in heaven, the more they pray for wayfarers, since the latter can be helped by prayers. And the more closely they are united to God, and the more are their prayers efficacious. For the divine order is such that lower beings receive an overflow of the excellence of the higher, even as the air receives the brightness of the sun. Wherefore, it is said of Christ in Hebrews 7.25, going to God by his own power to make intercession for us.

Starting point is 00:11:15 Hence, Jerome says, if the apostles and martyrs, while yet in the body and having to be solicitous for themselves, can pray for others, how much more now that they have the crown of victory and triumph. I think that really sums it up, that last quote there from Jerome. So, why don't we read that one more time? If the apostles and martyrs, while yet in the body and having to be solicitous for themselves, can pray for others, even amidst their strife and hardships, why not think that now that they're in heaven, that they would cease to pray for us? Wouldn't they pray for us all the more? Okay. Let me try and see if I can make an argument for the prayers of the saints in heaven. We know from 1 Corinthians 12.20 that Christ has one body. He doesn't have two bodies, right? One in heaven, one on earth. And since the saved are not separated from that one body by death, we read that in Romans 8.38. And since no part of that one body can claim to not need another part, 1 Corinthians 12.21, why would we think it wrong to seek the

Starting point is 00:12:35 prayerful assistance of the saints in heaven? Now, sometimes those, and maybe you're one of them, who object to prayers to the saints, they point to 1 Timothy 2.5, which states that there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. And so, they'll say, what is it about the word only that you don't understand? But if you're one of these people who have perhaps asked that, or maybe someone's asked that of you, I'd encourage you to read, I think it's the three verses or four verses leading up to verse five in 1 Timothy chapter two. And here's what you'll see. You'll see St. Paul exhorting us to pray for one another. He calls it good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior. So, here's the question. If I can ask a saint on earth to pray for me without usurping the unique mediatorship of Christ,

Starting point is 00:13:49 me without usurping the unique mediatorship of Christ, why can't the same be true of a heavenly one? Does that make sense? I mean, if I can ask you to pray for me, and suppose you're an evangelical brother of mine, you'll probably say, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to pray for you. You know, it would be an honor, maybe. You wouldn't say to me, ah, look, there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Why are you making me a mediator? But in a sense, when 1 Timothy 2.5 is talking about Christ being the mediator with a capital M in a sense. We do not usurp the mediatorship of Christ by asking our Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us. So, I just want to ask that question, if that can be true of earthly Christians, why can't it be true of heavenly ones? So, just something to think about. Now, maybe you'll respond, because they're dead.

Starting point is 00:14:47 something to think about. Now, maybe you'll respond, because they're dead. Fair enough, but that's false, isn't it? They're actually more alive than we, and not just alive, but fully righteous. Read Revelation 21-27. Also, if they're fully righteous, because nothing unclean shall enter heaven, then doesn't this make us think, it makes me think, of what St. James wrote about in James 5-16, where he says, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. And here, the saints in heaven, they're perfected in charity, they're perfected in charity. They're perfected in righteousness. Why not think that their prayers could be efficacious? Now, I suspect that many Protestants who are offended, perhaps, by the doctrine of praying to saints, I suspect it's because it rests on a misunderstanding, okay? And I think

Starting point is 00:15:48 that's to be expected, okay? We have been separated for 500-something years as Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians, and so we're going to use terminology differently. And so, it's fine, it makes sense, but I think what's important is that we don't just sort of get hung up on, you know, just hitting a wall. I think we should define our terms to try and gain as much common ground as possible. Okay. So, if an evangelical says, I'm going to pray to God or I'm going to worship God, they tend to use those words interchangeably. But when Catholics use the word pray, they mean it in the traditional English sense, okay? So, which is to ask. Now, if you've ever read the King James Version of the Bible, by the way, a confession moment here. Yes, I'm a Catholic, but I think that the King James Version is absolutely beautiful, perhaps the most

Starting point is 00:17:01 beautifully written. But if you have read the King James Version, you may have run across the verse in 1 Kings 2, verse 20, I pray thee, say me not nay. Now, there's a reason I don't read the King James Version, even though I find it beautiful. And that's because as beautiful as it is, it's also very confusing. And I think that sentence shows it. But it's basically, it's clear from the context of this passage that Bathsheba is not worshipping her son Solomon, but asking something of him when she says, I pray thee, right? She's meaning I'm making a request of you. Sometimes I've encountered this. Catholics feel the need to say, no, we don't pray to the saints. We pray with the saints. Now, while this is technically true, we do pray with them to God. We request their prayers. Once you understand what a Catholic means by pray, you'll see that Catholics do in fact pray to the saints and that this doesn't constitute idolatry. Okay. So, I hope that helps.

Starting point is 00:18:15 When I pray to St. Francis of Assisi, when I pray to the mother of Jesus, I don't mean that I'm worshipping these people. I mean that I'm requesting their prayers. That's what I mean. So, I hope that clears some things up. All right, let's continue. In the book of Revelation, we see that those who reside in heaven, okay, so if you're looking for a particular text in which we see those in heaven praying for those on earth. You could look here. We see that those in heaven are receiving the prayers of the saints on earth and are offering them to God. That's in Revelation 8, 3 through 4 and Revelation 5, 8. So, be sure to check them out. So, it shouldn't surprise us that our brothers and sisters in heaven,

Starting point is 00:19:15 So, it shouldn't surprise us that our brothers and sisters in heaven, which surround us, right, like a great cloud of witnesses, we read that in Hebrews 12.1, are interceding on our behalf, being perfected in love. Like I said earlier, they are more, not less, concerned with our salvation. A final point to consider is this, that the early church prayed to the saints in heaven. Okay. This is absolutely undeniable. And like I've said in other podcasts, I think this should interest us. I think we should take this seriously. If I am an evangelical Christian who thinks that to pray to the saints in heaven is an act of idolatry, how do I explain that, A, for the bulk of Christian history, Christians have prayed to saints from the very earliest times after the apostles and the apostles themselves, I would argue. But even today,

Starting point is 00:20:06 the bulk of Christianity, which is Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Orthodox, whatever, they are praying to the saints as well. So, even today, the majority of Christians pray to the saints. And maybe that doesn't convince you because you might say, well, errors kind of crept into Christianity, which sort of some pagan sort of influences brought this about. But look, even prior to the time of Constantine and shortly after, we see Christians all praying to the saints in heaven. So, I think this is something we should take seriously. Now, look, the early Christians were not inerrant, okay? I get that. A non-Catholic Christian still, though, even though they're not inerrant, they shouldn't dismiss this lightly.

Starting point is 00:20:53 Let me just give you one example. Is that okay from the early church? I could give a lot more, but let me just close here. Well, see, I'm always tempted. I get excited. I want to share with you one quotation, but I know I'm going to be like, instead, let me do 500. So, we'll see. Maybe I'll quote a few, several from the early church. Okay. So, this first one comes from St. Augustine, okay? And he says this, and this is from, and I'm going to butcher the name here, but against Faustus, the Manichaean, F-A-U-S-T-U-S. It comes from that letter. Okay. He says, a Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity, the memorial of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in the merits and be aided by their prayers. So, I think that's something we should consider.

Starting point is 00:21:52 All right, let's do a few more. Clement of Alexandria, who wrote this around AD 208, in this way is he, and by he he's talking about the true Christian, always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping. And though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him. So, getting back to what I said earlier, there is one body of Christ, not two, not one in heaven, one on earth, one body of Christ. And this body of Christ, it's not divided and the saints are not divided from it either, right? And we are supposed

Starting point is 00:22:38 to help each other as this body of Christ. One part can't say to another part, I have no need of you. So, I don't think we should say of the saints in heaven, I have no need of you either. Here is another quotation from Origen, and this is from his letter prayer. I think it's paragraph 11, if I'm reading correctly. He says, but not the high priest alone prays for those who pray sincerely. Who's the high priest? He's talking about Christ. Okay. But also the angels.

Starting point is 00:23:09 Okay. So he's saying the angels pray for us too. And he goes on as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep. Okay. Let's do one more and then I'll stop. And this is from Cyril of Jerusalem in his catechetical lectures. And he wrote this around AD 350. Okay.

Starting point is 00:23:35 He says, and he's talking, I think, in regards to the divine liturgy, the Holy Mass. He says, then during the Eucharistic prayer, we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep. also of those who have already fallen asleep. First, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications, God would receive our petition. So, I think that's all we'll have to say here today, all the time we have for on Pints with Aquinas. I pray that that's been a help for you. And I'm going to ask a question that might seem a little insincere, given the context, but I actually mean it. Would you please pray for me? Would you please pray for my family? Would you pray for the work that I'm engaged in? I'm sure many of you know, a big part of my work consists in traveling the country and speaking to around 50,000 people every year. And I speak on issues to do with the Catholic faith, including how pornography affects us negatively. So please

Starting point is 00:24:34 pray for my efforts and I will make a special effort. It's around lunchtime right now. I'm going to stop this podcast and go sit outside and I'm just going to just take some time to be before our Lord and I will be praying for all the listeners of Pints with Aquinas. Until next time, two things I want to ask you. One, follow me on Twitter at Matt Fradd. That's my handle. And two, please rate us on iTunes. And again, thanks to those who rated last week and reviewed the podcast. Another reminder, if you did review the podcast last week, be sure to go to pintswithaquinas.com and up the top, you'll see the five winners in red. Send me your postal address at the email provided and I will post you a copy of my new book. All right, until next week,

Starting point is 00:25:18 God bless you. I took you in Too many grains of salt and juice Lest we be frauds or worse, accused Lest we be frauds or worse accused Hollow me to deepen you Whose wolves am I feeding myself to? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive?

Pints With Aquinas - 35: Should we pray to the saints in heaven?

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.