Pints With Aquinas - 36: Can you explain to me the Hail Mary?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 36. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today, we'll ask St. Thomas, can you tell me a little bit about the Hail Mary? Thank you for joining us at Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. And thanks very much for tuning in. If you're a new listener, I want to recommend that you go back and be sure to check out the rest of these episodes. You know, many podcasts

Starting point is 00:00:51 out there today have to do with, you know, events of the day and that sort of thing. But these definitely don't. Every one of these podcasts revolves around a question that Thomas deals with in his different writings, predominantly the Summa Theologiae. So, feel free to go back and listen to whatever you want to listen to. Today, we're going to be talking about the Hail Mary. And next week, since it's a couple of days after Christmas, I thought I would share with you a talk that was given by Dr. Peter Kreeft. I would share with you a talk that was given by Dr. Peter Kreeft. Peter is a philosopher at Boston College and a prolific author, just a terrific guy. We'll be quoting him for, depending on when our blessed Lord comes back, for years and years to come. And you notice that I've said about St. Thomas Aquinas that he's the angelic doctor, right? Well, the reason he's called that is because he had so much to say

Starting point is 00:01:51 about the angels. And so, in next week's podcast, you'll get to hear a talk from Peter Kreeft about St. Thomas' view on the holy angels. So, look forward to that. But today, we're going to be talking about the Hail Mary. And look, I understand that we've got lots of Protestant listeners. I want to let you know, I love you. And you can get a lot out of this, all right? You know, don't think that, you know, I'm telling you to convert here on the spot. You know, just you can get a lot out of what Aquinas said about the Hail Mary without having to subscribe to all of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you know that. And obviously, the fact that you're listening to this shows that you're, you know,

Starting point is 00:02:36 this sounds like I'm pandering to you, but I'm not. You're an open-minded sort of individual. Yeah, so thanks for listening. I think, you know, beautiful Protestant brothers and sisters who so often put us Catholics to shame in how they love and revere the sacred scriptures, you know. Look, even if you disagree with me and St. Thomas and the Catholic Church about Mary and certain doctrines having to do with her, you can agree with me on this, that in Luke 1, verse 48, she says, Mary says, from now on, all generations will call me blessed. So, why not call her blessed Mary? Why don't we look at her blessedness? This blessedness that, of course, was given to her by God. We shouldn't be afraid to look at that. And so, I hope that you'll be cool looking at that with me now.

Starting point is 00:03:30 This is on the angelic salutation, okay? Now, for our Catholic listeners, you know that the first part of the prayer, the Hail Mary, is taken directly from Scripture, right? Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. This comes from who? Well, this comes from the angel Gabriel. And the second part, where we say, blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of thy womb. This comes from the Holy Spirit, which inspired Mary's cousin Elizabeth to proclaim this when she went to visit them. But what's interesting, what you might not know, is it wasn't until the 14th century, or around then, if my memory serves, that what we consider the second part of the Hail Mary today, Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for our sinners now in the hour of our death, that wasn't actually added

Starting point is 00:04:30 until after the time of Aquinas. And so, in his reflection on the Hail Mary, he looks at just that first half because that's all there was and that's the scriptural part. And so, that's what we'll take a look at. Now, keep in mind that the doctrine or the dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary, all right, this idea that Mary from the first moment of her conception was preserved from all stain of sin, wasn't yet fully formulated. And so, Aquinas gets it wrong, okay, when he says that Mary was maybe conceived in sin, but when she was born, from that point on, she was sinless. And if that bothers you, or if you're kind of wondering what that all is about, I'm not going to get into that here a great deal. If you want to learn more about this, okay, what Thomas thought and that sort of thing, go check out the sixth episode of Pints with

Starting point is 00:05:31 Aquinas. It's called, Why Didn't You Accept the Immaculate Conception, St. Thomas? And you'll listen to that and you'll discover it's a lot less scandalous than it sounds. All right, so let's look at Thomas Aquinas' reflection on the Hail Mary. Okay, so let's begin here. It was just that first phrase, Hail Mary. Aquinas says, we must now consider concerning the first part of this prayer that in ancient times, it was no small event when angels appeared to men, and that man should show them reverence was especially praiseworthy. Thus, it is written to the praise of Abraham that he received the angels with all courtesy and showed them reverence. But that an angel should show reverence to a man was never heard of until the angel reverently greeted the Blessed

Starting point is 00:06:29 Virgin, saying, Hail. In olden times, an angel would not show reverence to a man, but a man would deeply revere an angel. This is because angels are greater than men, and indeed in three ways. First, they are greater than men in dignity. This is because the angel is of a spiritual nature. You make your angels spirits, Psalm 103, 4. But on the other hand, man is of a corruptible nature. For Abraham said, I will speak to my Lord, whereas I am dust and ashes. Genesis 18.27. It was not fitting, therefore, that a spiritual and incorruptible creature should show reverence to one that is corruptible as is a man. Secondly, an angel is closer to God. The angel indeed is of the family of God and as it were stands ever by him. In Daniel chapter 7 verse 10, we read thousands of thousands ministered to him and 10,000 times 100,000 stood before him.

Starting point is 00:07:50 Man, on the other hand, is rather a stranger and far off from God because of sin. Psalm 44, 8 says, I have gone afar. I have gone afar. Therefore, it is fitting that man should reverence an angel who is an intimate and one of the household of the king. Then, thirdly, the angels far exceed men in the fullness of the splendor of divine grace, for angels participate in the highest degree in the divine That's a quotation from Job 25.3. But men, on the contrary, although they partake somewhat of the light of grace, nevertheless do so in a much slighter degree and with a certain obscurity. It was, therefore, not fitting that an angel should show reverence to a man until, until it should come to pass that one would be found in human nature who exceeded the angels in these three points in which we have seen that they

Starting point is 00:09:19 excel over men. And this was the blessed virgin. To show that she excelled the angels in these, the angel desired to show her reverence. And so he said, Ave, that is hail. Okay, let's pause for a moment there. Profound stuff. And a real good point. It's not angels who show reverence to men. It's men who ought to show reverence to angels and for the three reasons Aquinas mentions. And yet, what is different about this woman? What is different about her to you? What is different about her to you and me and every other creature? You know, if I were to say to you, every other creature. You know, if I were to say to you, dear podcast listener, who are you? You might say to me, well, I'm Mary or Simon or something. And I'd say to you, no, I didn't ask your name. Who are you? Now, suppose you said, well, I'm Australian or I'm American or Filipino or something.

Starting point is 00:10:27 And I said, look, I didn't ask you your nationality. Who are you? And at this point, you might become rather flummoxed and say something like, I like this and that sport. I'm into this stuff. My mom and dad, their names are such and such. And I might say, fine, that's all great information. Didn't ask you though about your hobbies and what your interests are. Didn't ask you who your parents are. I asked you, who are you? Now, that does sound like a rather frustrating conversation, but the point I'm trying to get at is this. Our deepest identity

Starting point is 00:11:05 lies in the fact that we are sons and daughters of God the Father. We are what we are before him and nothing else. And what we are is loved his. Okay. How is Mary different to you and I? In this way, not only is she the daughter of God, the father, but she's also in a mystical sense, the spouse of God the Son. So this one woman, this one woman in relation to God, almighty God, is daughter, spouse, and mother. And for this reason, this intimacy she has, which no other creature has, the angel desired to show her reverence and therefore says, Ave. Okay, let's move on to the next phrase, full of grace. So, Hail Mary and then full of grace. What does Aquinas have to say here? The Blessed Virgin, says Aquinas, was superior to any of the angels in the fullness of grace.

Starting point is 00:12:28 And as an indication of this, the angel showed reverence to her by saying, full of grace. This is as if he said, I show you reverence because you dost excel me in the fullness of grace. because you dost excel me in the fullness of grace. The Blessed Virgin is said to be full of grace in three ways. First, as regards her soul, she was full of grace. The grace of God is given for two chief purposes, namely to do good and to avoid evil. The Blessed Virgin then received grace in the most perfect degree because she had avoided every sin more than any other saint after Christ. Thus, it is said, quote, and this is from Song of Songs 4-7, You are fair, my beloved, and there is not a spot in you. Saint Augustine says,

Starting point is 00:13:28 quote, if we could bring together all the saints and ask them if they were entirely without sin, all of them, with the exception of the Blessed Virgin, would say with one voice, if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. I accept, however, the holy virgin of whom because of the honor of God, I wish to omit all mention of sin. For we know that to her was granted grace to overcome every kind of sin by him whom she merited to conceive and bring forth, and he certainly was holy without sin. All right, so let's just pause there a moment. Suppose you're listening to me right now and, you know, you might enjoy the podcast, but you strongly disagree with the Catholic Church who

Starting point is 00:14:22 would say that Mary was without sin. Look, you're welcome to, but can you at least sympathize with us when the earliest church, the earliest Christians, such as St. Augustine, right? Someone as prominent as St. Augustine agrees with us, you know. Can you at least sympathize with us? That's rather a soft sell sort of question, but I hope you see that, you know, when Catholics believe certain things, it's not because they were made up by some monk, you know, in the 15th century or something. No, no, these were things that date back to the apostles, the teaching of the apostles, and the earliest Christians believed them. Even if their belief and their expression of that belief differed accidentally, it didn't substantially.

Starting point is 00:15:12 All right. So, that was Aquinas quoting Augustine. And here's what Aquinas goes on to say. Aquinas, Christ excelled the blessed virgin in this, that he was conceived and born without original sin, while the blessed virgin was conceived in original sin, but was not born in it. Okay. Aquinas is wrong on this point. I mentioned that at the beginning of this podcast. Now, of course, at the time, theologians were trying to reconcile the sinfulness of, or the sin we've inherited, right, original sin, with the fact that Mary was without sin. This is something, of course, Thomas taught. Thomas knew and taught that Mary was without sin. And yet, how do we reconcile original sin with this? And so, he wasn't really sure how to

Starting point is 00:16:08 do that. But the church has since taught and clarified on this matter that Mary was conceived from the first moment of her existence without the stain of original sin and never committed sin after that. Again, I say a lot more about this in the sixth episode of Pints with Aquinas, so I'm not going to go on and talk about that here. So, be sure to go check that out. Okay, back to Aquinas. She, Mary, exercised the works of all the virtues, whereas the saints are conspicuous for the exercise of certain special virtues. Thus, one excelled in humility, another in chastity, another in mercy, to the extent that they are the special exemplars of these virtues. As, for example, Saint Nicholas is an exemplar of the the virtues. In her is the fullness of the virtue of humility.

Starting point is 00:17:11 Behold the handmaid of the Lord, we read in Luke 1.38. And again, he has looked on the humility of his handmaid, Luke 1.48. So she is also exemplar of the virtue of chastity. In Luke 1.34, we read her saying, because I know not man, and thus it is with all the virtues as is evident. Mary was full of grace, not only in the performance of all good, but also in the avoidance of all evil. Again, the blessed virgin was full of grace in the overflowing effect of this grace upon her flesh or body. For while it is a great thing in the saints that the abundance of grace sanctified their souls, yet, moreover, the soul of the Holy Virgin was so filled with grace that from her soul, grace poured into her flesh from which was conceived the Son of God. Hugh of St. Victor says this, quote, because the love of the Holy Spirit so inflamed her soul, he worked a wonder in her flesh in that from it was born God made man.

Starting point is 00:18:28 End quote. And in Luke 1.35, he read, And therefore also the holy, which shall be born of you, shall be called the Son of God. The plentitude of grace in Mary was such that its effects overflow upon all men. It is a great thing in a saint when he has grace to bring about the salvation of many. We would agree with that, wouldn't we? So if we think of a particular preacher, someone who's brought many people to Jesus Christ, we would say, well, this is a great thing, you know, that by God's

Starting point is 00:19:06 grace, he's been able to bring many to salvation. But, says Aquinas, it is exceedingly wonderful when grace is of such abundance as to be sufficient for the salvation of all men in the world. salvation of all men in the world. And this is true of Christ and the blessed virgin. Thus, a thousand bucklers, that is remedies against dangers, hang therefrom. And again, this is a spiritual reflection Aquinas is doing of the Song of Songs, chapter four, verse four. Likewise, in every work of virtue, one can have her, excuse me, let me say that again. Likewise, in every work of virtue, one can have her as one's helper. Of her, it was spoken from Sirach 24, 25, in me is all grace of the way and of the truth in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Therefore, Mary is full of grace, exceeding the angels in this fullness.

Starting point is 00:20:14 And very fittingly, is she called Mary, which means in herself enlightened. in herself enlightened. The Lord will fill your soul with brightness, Isaiah 48, 11, and she will illumine others throughout the world, for which reason she is compared to the sun and to the moon. You know, that's a great analogy right there. Let's just pause for a moment. This analogy of the sun and the moon. Whenever Christians talk about the beauty and the virtue and the splendor of Mary, in an analogous way, it's like talking about the beauty and the splendor of the moon. Well, why do I say that? Because the moon doesn't generate light in and through itself, does it? It merely reflects the sun. Right.

Starting point is 00:21:09 Same thing's true of Mary. Whenever we praise Mary for her virtue, for her humility, for her chastity, etc., this is a reflection. She allowed herself, by God's grace, to be a reflection of Him who is all good. So, any praises we give to Mary, we're giving to God. And sometimes I think people can become rather scrupulous. They think, well, I shouldn't praise her because really it's all God's, you know. Well, yeah, that's true. But look, I mean, it's kind of like I got four

Starting point is 00:21:47 kids. My wife, more than me, I suppose, helped bring them about. But when people praise our children, I don't say, well, what about me? What about my wife? I mean, really, we're the ones that feed them and clothe them and make sure they're not dirty and that they look presentable. No, we take delight when people praise our children. Likewise, it is just ridiculous and scrupulous and wrong, forgive me for being so blunt about this, to think that in praising Mary for her beauty, for saying, you are blessed among women, among all women, you are the most blessed. That God the Father is sitting up on his throne feeling envious and angry because we're not giving him the attention. He delights when we rejoice in the virtue he has allowed us to possess.

Starting point is 00:22:48 Let's move on. The Lord is with you. Okay, so hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Isn't it beautiful how much we can plumb the depths of each of these sentences? The blessed virgin excels the angels in her closeness to God. The angel Gabriel indicated this when he said the the Lord is with you, as if to say, I reverence you because you are nearer to God than I, because the Lord is with you. By the Lord, he means the father with the son and the Holy Spirit, who in like manner are not with any angel or any other spirit. The holy, which shall be born of you, shall be called the son Luke 1.35. Here's a great quote from Augustine that reminds me of what we just read there. Listen to this. Him whom the heavens cannot contain, the womb of one woman bore. She ruled our ruler.

Starting point is 00:23:59 She carried him in whom we all are. She gave milk to our bread. Powerful stuff. Back to Aquinas. The Lord is not with the angel in the same manner as with the blessed virgin, for with her he is as a son. We spoke about this earlier, didn't we? And with the angel, he is the Lord. The Lord, the Holy Ghost is in her as in a temple. So that it is said, the temple of the Lord, the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit. Because she conceived by the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost shall come upon you, we read in Luke 1.35. The Blessed Virgin is closer to God than is an angel because with her are the Lord the Father, the Lord the Son, and the Lord the Holy Ghost. In a word, the Holy Trinity.

Starting point is 00:24:51 Indeed of her we sing, noble resting place of the triune God. The Lord is with you. Are the most praise laden words that the angel could have uttered. All right, we have two more quick sections to go. Blessed art thou among women, and then blessed is the fruit of your womb. So, let's look upon that first one. Blessed art thou among women. The blessed virgin exceeds the angel in purity. She is not only pure, but she obtains purity for others. She is purity itself wholly lacking in every guilt of sin, for she never incurred either mortal or venial sin. So too, she was free from the penalties of sin. Sinful man, on the contrary, incurs a threefold curse on account of sin. The first fell upon woman who conceives in corruption, bears her child with difficulty,

Starting point is 00:26:01 and brings it forth in pain. The blessed virgin was wholly free of this, since she conceived without corruption, bore her child in comfort and brought him forth in joy. In Isaiah 35.2, we read and Aquinas uses this as a sort of spiritual meditation on the blessed mother. It shall bud forth and blossom and shall rejoice with joy and praise. Now, the second penalty was inflicted upon man in that he shall earn his bread by the sweat of his brow. The blessed virgin was also immune from this because, as the apostle says, virgins are free from the cares of this world and are occupied wholly with the things of the Lord. The third curse is common both to man and woman in that both shall one day return

Starting point is 00:26:54 to dust. The blessed virgin was spared this penalty for her body was raised up into heaven. And so we believe that after her death, she was revived and transported into heaven. Arise, O Lord, into your resting place, you and the ark which you hast sanctified. That comes from Psalm 131.8. Because the blessed virgin was immune from these punishments, she is blessed among women. Moreover, she alone escaped the curse of sin, brought forth the source of blessing and opened the gate of heaven. It is surely fitting that her name is Mary, which is akin to the star of the sea, Maria Maristella. For just as sailors are directed to port by the star of the sea, so also Christians are by Mary guided to glory. Finally, let's look at blessed is the fruit of your womb.

Starting point is 00:27:58 The sinner often seeks for something which he does not find. But to the just man it is given to find what he seeks. The substance of the sinner is kept for the just. Thus Eve sought the fruit of the tree of good and evil, but she did not find in it that which she sought. Everything Eve desired, however, was given to the blessed virgin. Eve sought that which the devil falsely promised her, namely, that she and Adam would be as gods. Excuse me. Knowing good and evil, you shall be, says the liar as gods, Genesis 3.5. But he lied because he is a liar and the father of lies, John 8.44. Eve was not made like God after having eaten of the

Starting point is 00:28:54 fruit, but rather she was unlike God in that by her sin, she withdrew from God and was driven out of paradise. The blessed virgin, however, and all Christians found in the fruit of her womb him whereby we are all united to God and are made like to him. When he shall appear, we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3.2. Eve looked for pleasure in the fruit of the tree because it was good to eat, but she did not find this pleasure in it. And on the contrary, she had once discovered she was naked and was stricken with sorrow. In the fruit of the blessed virgin, we find sweetness and salvation. He who eats my flesh has eternal life. Oh, my brothers and sisters, the Lord is speaking to me right now as I read this. How true is this of sin? How true is this of sin? You may know that much of the work that I do

Starting point is 00:29:51 outside of this podcast and my studies in philosophy is work having to do with pornography, pornography addiction. I have a podcast, another one called Integrity Restored, by the way. If you're interested, that's all about pornography. But listen to this. The sinner often seeks for something which he does not find, but to the just man it is given to find what he seeks. How true is that? How true is that? How true is that? Eve looked for pleasure in the fruit of the tree because it was good to eat, but she did not find the pleasure in it. And on the contrary, she had once discovered she was naked and was stricken with sorrow. Oh, brothers and sisters, how true is this of you and me when we turn to sexual sin? All right.

Starting point is 00:30:33 You're tempted to look at pornography. You know it won't work, but you feel like you're on a train that you can't get off. And so you do. And you seek something. And what you seek is good. That's what you want. You want what? You want peace. You want delight. You want freedom. You want joy. You want pleasure. You want excitement, but you don't get it. And on the contrary, what you find is once it's all said and done, you find yourself as it were naked and stricken with sorrow.

Starting point is 00:31:11 So in the light of that little meditation, let's read Aquinas' line again. And for you, maybe it's not pornography, maybe it's not masturbation, maybe it's not fornication, maybe it's not prostitution. But mate, you know what it is. Eve looked for pleasure in the fruit of the tree because it was good to eat, but she did not find this pleasure in it. And on the contrary, she had once discovered she was naked and was stricken with sorrow. In the fruit of the blessed virgin, we find sweetness and salvation. That's what we're after, brothers and sisters. When we turn to porn, what we're after is the fruit of the Blessed Virgin.

Starting point is 00:31:51 Do you realize that? Every man who clicks on a porn site is looking for God. Every woman who clicks on a porn site is looking for the fruit of the Blessed Virgin's womb. Aquinas continues, The fruit which Eve desired was beautiful to look upon, but the fruit of the Blessed Virgin is far more beautiful, for the angels desire to look upon him. In Psalm 44.3 we read, You are beautiful above the sons of men.

Starting point is 00:32:22 He is the splendor of the glory of the father. Eve therefore looked in vain for that which she sought in the fruit of the tree, just as the sinner is disappointed in his sins. You know what this reminds me of right now as I'm saying this is that line, I don't know where it is in the gospel because I'm a good Catholic. It's where they go looking for Christ in the tomb. And what does the angel say to them? He says, why do you seek the living among the dead? This is what we seek when we seek Christ in sin. It is as if to say why why are you seeking joy why are you seeking life why are you seeking beauty and goodness in death you know he is not here all right um let me continue here we must seek in the fruit of the womb of the Virgin Mary whatsoever we desire.

Starting point is 00:33:28 This is he who is the fruit blessed by God, who has filled him with every grace, which in turn is poured out upon us who adore him. Blessed be God and the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. Ephesians 1, 3. He too is revered by the angels, benediction and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving, honor and power and strength to our God. Revelation 7, 12. And he is glorified by men. Every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. Amen, brothers and sisters. Thank you so much for being with us today. This was a much longer podcast than we are used to, but I think you'll agree with me, it was a worthwhile one. Before we close with a prayer, I would like to invite you,

Starting point is 00:34:32 if you haven't already, to rate Pints with Aquinas on iTunes. Leave us a review. We read all of them and, you know, my wife and I, and we thank you for them. I would also like to invite you to consider buying my book, Pints with Aquinas, 50 plus deep thoughts from the angelic doctor. If you've been wanting to read Aquinas for some time now, but have been too intimidated to try, this book is for you. It's a short book, as I say, over 50 deep thoughts from the angelic doctor, which I have divided into different chapters, such as God, Jesus, the sacraments, happiness, alcohol, et cetera, et cetera. There's a brief life of St. Thomas Aquinas in here that you can read. Other than that, we also have images of alcohol and explanations of the different types of beer. That's what I mean. Sorry, images of beer, not just alcohol. So there's like, grab a pint and then it'll tell you about a beer, like malt. Like what is a malt beer? What is a

Starting point is 00:35:30 lager? These sorts of things. So you can get that on Amazon and I'll throw a link to the description, in the description of this podcast to that book. And I'll also put the entire text, like I do every week. Every week I put the text of what I read in the description so that you can read along with it if you like. Okay? In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Starting point is 00:36:03 Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen. Am I feeding myself to you? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive?

Pints With Aquinas - 36: Can you explain to me the Hail Mary?

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