Pints With Aquinas - 49: What are the 4 cardinal and 3 theological virtues? With Dr. Kevin Vost

Episode Date: March 21, 2017

Today I chat with Dr. Kevin Vost about the 4 cardinal and 3 theological virtues. --- SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 49. How you doing? Good. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask St. Thomas the question, what are the four cardinal and three theological virtues? Great to have you with us here at Bites with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Today I will be joined on the show by Dr. Kevin Voest. He's written several books, including books on St. Thomas Aquinas. We'll talk a little bit about his work in the show.

But I'm excited about this podcast. We're going to be talking about the four cardinal and three theological virtues. Not only will we be speaking about the four cardinal and three theological virtues. Not only will we be speaking about what they are and what Thomas had to say about them, but Dr. Voest will lead you through a memory technique that will make it so that you will never be able to forget these virtues again. Oh, and by the way, those who support Pints with Aquinas on Patreon get access to an ever-growing library of exclusive audio content of interviews that I do with philosophers, theologians, and apologists. One of those interviews is with Kevin Vost. So if you want to hear about how he became a Catholic after being a lifelong atheist, please consider supporting the show. Go to pintswithaquinas.com,

click the Patreon banner, and learn how you can support. And a huge thanks to all of you who already do. Okay, enjoy the show. Dr. Voest, it's great to have you with us. Oh, it's my pleasure to be with you, Matt. Before we delve into today's topic, tell us a little bit about yourself. Sure. My name is Kevin Voest. I'm a clinical psychologist and Catholic author, a recently retired guy. In brief, I was raised Catholic, spent about 25 years as an atheist, St. Thomas Aquinas' writings, and the Holy Spirit brought me back to the church in my early 40s and been there ever since.

Fantastic. Well, today we're going to talk about virtues, and I'm excited to do that. We're going to do a couple of things. We're going to have you lead us through a sort of memorization process, a sort of thought experiment, which I can tell you, dear listeners, if you have not had the pleasure of reading Dr. Vost's books, you're going to be really surprised. If you listen to this attentively, I can guarantee you it'll be very difficult for you after this podcast to try and forget the seven virtues. That's how helpful this memorization technique will be. And then we will go over the four cardinal virtues and the three theological ones. But before we do that, we should probably decide or figure out what a virtue is. So, of course, Aquinas having, they say, baptized Aristotle is going to agree with him in saying that a virtue, this is at least what Aristotle says in the Nicomachean Ethics, is the habit of choosing the mean between the extremes of deficiency and excess with regard to a particular emotion or action. And so what he

means there is, if you think of courage, courage is going to be the mean between the two extremes of deficiency and excess. Well, what might be excess courage, if you will? Well, that might be some kind of recklessness. And of course, a deficiency of that would be cowardice. And what we want is to find the middle ground. And the reason Aristotle and Aquinas is going to call it a habit is because at least these cardinal virtues and other virtues as well will only be attained by exercising them. Anything you want to add or critique to that, Dr. Bost? No, I think that that's right on target, that Thomas borrows that from Aristotle and agrees with him. Thomas also sometimes talks about virtues as perfections of our powers,

and I kind of love that concept too, that whatever God-given powers we have in terms of our reasoning abilities and so on, virtues perfect them. Yeah, very good. And he addresses this issue of virtues for our listeners in the first part of the second part of the Suma Theologiae. And in particular, I'm looking here. You can probably do this by memory, could you? Well, it depends. It depends on what you're looking for. Here we go. Virtues. So, he talks about the virtues beginning with question 55,

Here we go. Virtues. So he talks about the virtues beginning with question 55. And he talks about the cardinal virtues and theological virtues. And that's going to be questions 61 and 62. So we're not going to, of course, read all of what Aquinas said, because that would take us too far afield. But for our listeners, if you want to read more about it, that's where you can go. But anyway, Dr. Vose, tell us about this memorization technique. Sure, sure. It just so happened that my specialty in psychology was memory and memory improvement. And when I came back to the church, I remembered that I'd read that in the history of some of the most famous memorization techniques, particularly one called the method of loci or locations, Thomas Aquinas himself was a key figure in perfecting these techniques. And if you look in the Summa Theologica, the second part of the second part, the 49th question in the first article is entitled, Whether Memory is a Part of Prudence? And Thomas will tell you, yes, it is. And he'll actually describe a bit these ancient memory techniques that you can use to memorize just about

anything. Fantastic. Well, now, you've got two, I think you might now have three books, is that right, on this memorization technique? You have Memorize the Mass, which is your latest book. That's right. Memorize the Faith, Memorize the Reasons, and Memorize the Mass. Fantastic. Now, which one was it that you discussed the seven virtues in? That was the first, memorize the faith. Excellent. All right. Well, do you want to lead us through this? What do you call it? Thought experiment or maybe not a thought experiment? Yeah, we call it a thought experiment. Sometimes I call them memory tours because you're kind of taking a tour through a house. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Well, great. If people are ready,

one of the key elements of memory, even when you're using these techniques, is to focus and attention. And another is imagination. So I'll ask everyone if they would please give me their full attention and set their imaginations on high. That means get off the treadmill. That's right. You've done your high-intensity interval. Now, let's rest for a couple of minutes. So I want to invite you to come with me to my house in central illinois and we're going to go through the front door i'm going to invite you into my dining room because this is where i keep the virtues so here's our first location number one you just cross the threshold into my dining

room and you're met there by a woman who you're told her nickname is prude and her full name is prudence so maybe you're expecting this this older lady there you're told her nickname is Prude and her full name is Prudence. So maybe you're expecting this older lady. There's probably not a whole lot of Prudences out there now. But you're surprised to find she's actually a beautiful young woman, a woman, this Prudence is, except something very strange about her. And we can elaborate this a little bit later. But she actually has three faces. So here's this young, beautiful woman, Prudence.

You realize she has three faces looking So here's this young beautiful woman, Prudence. You realize she has three faces looking at different directions. And just to lock this in, let's imagine she's nibbling on prunes. So we will not forget that prude sound that will remind us of prudence. Okay, so that's our first stop. Right in the threshold of the dining room, there is prudence. Number two, now you're going to come to my dining room table. And sitting there at the first chair is this guy in these flowing black robes and he has a mallet so obviously he's a judge so second location the first chair there is sitting a judge and he will obviously remind us of justice that's the virtue of justice that he's representing for us now right on top of that table i mentioned

there's a huge child's fort. When I was little, they would sell these. They'd be like a castle or like the Calvary's wooden forts out in the Wild West. But whatever kind you want, imagine a huge fort there because that reminds us of the virtue of fortitude. Okay, so that was the third location. Now let's go over to the wall. And on the wall is a huge wall thermometer telling what the temperature it is inside. And the reason it's telling it's there is so temperature will remind us of the

virtue named temperance. So thermometer, temperature reminds us of temperance. That is the fourth virtue. Now we're back to the dining room table, and there's only three virtues left. And people probably will recognize these names from 1 Corinthians 13. They're simply faith, hope, and charity. But if we want to lock them in with this memory method, we'll go to that first chair on the left there, and there is faith. If you want to, picture like a glowing face. So the face will remind you of faith. The chair at the end of the table, let's imagine some giant hope chest is sitting there, just something to remind you of hope. And then finally, that last chair on the other side, imagine that they're sitting, there's a big glass of cherry tea, or the chair has tea, just to remind us of charity. Now, the way these memory methods work, St. Thomas Aquinas often said,

repetition is the mother of memory. Also, these techniques lock things in backwards and forwards. Let's just really quickly go through them one more time, but backwards. That last chair there, we had the chair with T for charity. The chair at the end, you had the hope chest for hope. The chair on the left there, we had the glowing face for faith. Now we're back on the wall with the wall thermometer, temperature for temperance. The big fort for fortitude in the center of the table, the judge for justice at that first chair, and of course, prudence let us in. So if we have that down there, we work through this little tour, go around the room, we'll find prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance, faith, hope, and charity, the four cardinal and the three theological virtues.

So fantastic. cardinal and the three theological virtues. So fantastic. What I love about that is, usually when you tell people, I'll help you understand or memorize, rather, say, the seven virtues or the Ten Commandments, someone might think, well, I don't know if you'll be able to help me. But not only will you help them do that, but you'll help them remember them backwards, which is pretty cool. Yeah, I will do it in order. And one kind of cool thing about it, there's different kinds of memory, like what you just get verbally from reading a list or reading a book, and the kind of memories that you actually experience something, and those tend to be richer and stay with you better. So, these kind of techniques kind of turn that material into a

lived experience. Right. And the stranger the image, the more it seems to impress itself on the memory, doesn't it? That's right. Hopefully, no one will forget Prudence with her three faces. We'll have to explain at some point why she has three. Or whether it's possible to be a beautiful woman and have three faces. That's a whole other discussion. That's true. That's a good point. Maybe you can only see one at a time, hopefully. Yeah. All right. Well, let's begin by just addressing first the four cardinal virtues. And I'll just read a little bit from what Thomas says, and then I'll let you go for it. This is in question 61, having to do with the cardinal virtues, and article two, whether there are

four cardinal virtues. And here's what Aquinas says. Things may be numbered either in respect of their formal principles or according to the subjects in which they are, and either way we find that there are four cardinal virtues. For the formal principle of virtue of which we speak now is good as defined by reason, which good is considered in two ways. First, as existing in the very act of reason, and thus we have one principle virtue called prudence. Second, according as the reason puts its order into something else, either into operations, and then we have justice, or into passions, and then we need two virtues. For the need of putting

the order of reason into the passions is due to their thwarting reason. And this occurs in two ways. First, by the passions inciting to something against reason, and then the passions need a curb, which we call temperance. Secondly, by the passions withdrawing us from following the dictate of reason, e.g. through fear of danger or toil, and then man needs to be strengthened for that which reason dictates, lest he turn back, and to this end there is fortitude. Very good. So, why don't we go through those one by one and just get your take on each? Sure, sure. I'll just say I always love reading or hearing St. Thomas explain things. It's always so magnificent, you know. He understands these things just inside

and out and just lays out their beauty because he knew so well human nature, you know, what makes us up, our passions and our reasoning abilities and so on. So, yeah. So, let's go back in our tour. Here's that crazy image of prudence with three faces. Well, first, okay, what in essence is prudence? It's also called a practical wisdom. It's where we know how to choose the right means to attain virtuous goals. So, it's also called a practical wisdom. It's where we know how to choose the right means to attain virtuous goals. So it's also been called like a charioteer of the other moral virtues. It guides fortitude and temperance and justice. But why does prudence have three faces? Well, some of the ancient thinkers, like St. Albert the Great, Thomas' teacher, said,

well, to be prudent, we achieve virtuous goals in the future by acting in the present guided by what we have learned in the past. So those three phases of prudence represent the past, the present, and the future. And the virtue actually has what's called three, well, three, at least three parts. Memory is the part that relates to the past. Understanding is the key part that relates to the past, understanding is the key part that relates to the present, and foresight or thinking ahead is the key part that relates to the future. Now, Thomas himself even elaborated further and gave eight parts, different things like you have to have caution, you have to be able to be shrewd and sometimes think on your feet, and so forth.

So each of these virtues is very, very rich. But to put it again in a nutshell, prudence is that practical wisdom whereby we're guided by the good things we've learned in the past to make good choices in the present that will produce good results in the future. Excellent. All right, moving along. Sure. Then if people recall, the second one, you move to that first chair where we saw the judge there to remind us of justice and justice thomas says perfects our powers of our will that we will the right things especially in terms of giving each other person their rightful due so it's treating all people uh fairly whether there are superiors and authorities or are inferiors or are equals. So that justice thing is that virtue that allows us to treat fairly with everyone we come across.

And of course, anger is sometimes kind of said to be completely, you know, evil, and yet there is a just anger. And how does that fit into this virtue of justice? And how does that fit into this virtue of justice? Sure, sure. At times there can be a just anger. And Thomas says then, you know, if someone has done something that really has harmed someone, they may even need to be punished. But if you express your anger in a just way, you're going to express it not in a way to harm that person who has transgressed, but in a way that's going to make things right, to punish them, to correct them for the future, perhaps. So, there can be times when there is a call for just anger, except we're supposed to express it also in a prudent way, in a way that does not produce more harm. Great. Okay. Let's keep going.

Sure. Up on that table there. Yeah. There we saw that child's fort for fortitude. And earlier, you talked about courage, and it's kind of a synonym for courage. And to fortify something means to make it stronger. So yes, that virtue is what Thomas says. It's a virtue that we use to obtain something, do something that's important, but it's not easy. So it's this kind of fortitude that allows us to do it. And just thinking in practical terms in our world today, there can be fortitude simply in speaking out your mind and what you truly believe for things like, you know, the sanctity of life for the unborn or for people at the end of their lifespan. There's all kinds of ways that call on us as Catholic Christians to express our fortitude in our belief of what is right. Can fortitude be thought to be synonymous with courage, or is there a difference? Well, I think, you know, sometimes we do use it as courage, but again, just to make this brief, Thomas talks about four key parts, which I really love. He talks about two active parts of fortitude. One is magnanimity, or this is a greatness

of soul, where you're just focused on things that are difficult and important. It's kind of like you're not going to sweat the small stuff. You're focused on doing good things, really important things. And also, magnificence, which means making great things. And sometimes this is even in the outlay of money. So how is that related to fortitude? Well, in fortitude, sometimes we'll take risks, even put our own bodies at risk. With magnificence, we can even be generous, give out our funds, kind of not fearing a threat to our pocketbook to achieve good

things for the church, you know, building a cathedral, helping some kind of Catholic apostolate. So these are two positive aspects of fortitude where we do and build great things, but also the two we probably know best are enduring aspects. This is patience, where again we will endure what other people say, though it may not be what we like, that we have patience for other people's actions without exploding in anger. And also perseverance, that we stay the course even when the goals we're

trying to receive don't come quickly. So I think it's just kind of beautiful the way it looks at two positive related virtues of magnanimity and magnificence and two enduring virtues of patience and perseverance. Excellent. Okay, and the fourth cardinal virtue is temperance. Yes, and temperance is what, you know, reigns in our kind of cupiscable appetites or, you know, our lusts and desires for things that are pleasant and pleasurable for us. So, this would be the kind of virtue we call into combat. For example, the sins of lust and gluttony. And I think, too, Thomas really highlights a helpful distinction here with also what he calls the related or partial virtue of continence. And let me give an example here.

Let's say you're at the office and there's somebody buying a box of donuts. And you really want one and you think, I could probably have one donut, so you go ahead and have the donut. But then, boy, you'd sure like another one. But let's say you go through in your mind, I really don't need that, it's not going to be good for my health, and you decide, okay, you resist this temptation, you're not going to go for that donut. Well, you've exercised that virtue of continence, but this virtue of temperance, through repeated acts of continence, you may reach the point where you no longer even have that desire for that

second donut. So we can sort of see temperance as God giving us ways to build up towards it in some areas by those repeated acts of reining ourselves in. So we may at some point reach the point where that internal conflict is not there in the way it used to be. And this is what Aristotle touches upon again in the Nicomachean Ethics with his four character states, the difference between the continent man, the virtuous man. It may be the case that you're not over indulging in something or even sinning by, say, looking at pornography or masturbating, but you may not yet be at the level of the virtuous man because it's a sign of the virtuous man that he finds acting virtuously a joyful and life-giving thing.

Yeah, exactly right. It is a beautiful progression, even in the realm of the natural virtues. Yeah, how we can, once that we've actually, you know, really fully practicing these virtues, they provide the pleasure of their own, a higher pleasure, a pleasure in keeping with our highest capacities as human beings. I think it was Christopher West who used this analogy. He said, you know, I don't need the law, thy shall not climb a clock tower and, you know, murder people with an Uzi. I don't need that law, you know, and if the law was stated, I wouldn't get all uptight and angry about it. But we do tend to get upset at the laws that do make a demand on our, well, our weakness, don't we? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, you know, so the

virtues there, I have another example here. It seems to me like, look at them like as oars. We're rowing our boat, you know, toward God and the truth. God is so generous. So, he also gives us a whole other category of special aids called the gifts of the Holy Spirit that are also then like the sails that we can open up, and God is providing the sail within our wind. So, it's like all these virtues, we strive to develop them in ourselves, and God is also going to give us special graces that if we, you know, cooperate with Him, it's going to even help us perfect these virtues and really be able to practice and then really experience the joy that comes from them. Excellent.

Okay, well, those are the four cardinal virtues. We should point out, too, why they're called cardinal virtues to begin with. Do you want to explain that? Sure, sure. And these virtues are in the Old Testament. They're also in the classical pagan writings. And the cardinae is from the Latin. They're referred to like the hinges of

a door, like you mentioned, four hinges on a door. So, kind of the idea that these are fundamental to the virtues, and the other virtues kind of swing from them. Now, I've even seen this depicted in places with these four cardinal virtues as a door, but then on top, there's this triangular kind of capstone that has three other virtues, which are even higher. Excellent. So that's what we want to talk about now. And as you mentioned earlier, people are probably familiar with 1 Corinthians 13, 13, where St. Paul says, and now these three remain, faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. Would you begin by sharing with us how the theological virtues differ from the cardinal ones?

Sure. And in general, the cardinal virtues are referred to at times also as the natural virtues by the fact that the way God made us as human beings, we all have these appetites and we have a will and an intellect. And those are the virtues that by our nature can be used to perfect them. But these theological virtues are purely gratuitous gifts from God. When we accept Christ into our hearts, the Holy Spirit bestows these virtues upon us. And these are the virtues that can guide us toward heaven, to spend eternity with God. So again, they're in a whole different plane. Instead of being called natural virtues, they're also called supernatural or theological infused virtues that God gives to us.

So these are infused into man through baptism, correct? That's right. That's right. When we're baptized in the name of the Father, the Holy Spirit, they are part of those graces that flow into our souls. Let's read what Aquinas says just briefly on this before we let you comment on each. This is from, again, the first part of the second part, question 62 and article one. Let's see, are there any theological virtues? And Aquinas says, and I, like you, just love Aquinas. Every time I read him, I get giddy. And part of the reason is he's so clear. It's almost like he sees reality in slow motion and

he's able to be like, there are four things in this action or in this particular thing. It's wonderful. He says, man is perfected by virtue for those actions whereby he is directed to happiness, as was explained above. Now, man's happiness is twofold, as was also stated above. fold, as was also stated above, one is proportionate to human nature, a happiness to it, which man can obtain by means of his natural principles. The other is a happiness surpassing man's nature, and which man can obtain by the power of God alone, by a kind of participation of the Godhead, about which it is written in 2 Peter 1.4, that by Christ we are made partakers of the divine nature. And because such happiness surpasses the capacity of human nature,

man's natural principles, which enable him to act well according to his capacity, do not suffice to direct man to this same happiness. Hence, it is necessary for man to receive from God some additional principles, whereby he may be directed to supernatural happiness, even as he is directed to his conatural end, by means of his natural principles, albeit not without divine assistance. Such like principles are called theological virtues. First, because their object is God in as much as they direct us a right to God. Secondly, because they are infused in us by God alone. Thirdly, because these virtues are not made known to us, save by divine revelation contained in holy writ.

Excellent. Well, yeah, you've already shared with us the kind of memory technique to remember faith, hope, and love. But as you say, it's one, if we're vaguely familiar with the scriptures, we'll be able to remember those ones. Do you want to say a word about each? Sure, sure. And with faith, I think, you know, in our day, too, we hear so much the idea that somehow faith is opposed to reason or, you know, religion versus science. But faith is really something that takes us, it's not contrary to our reason, but takes us where our reason cannot go. It perfects us. It comes through God's revelation. So I'll give a quote from Father Garagou Lagrange,

one of the great 20th century Thomists. He says, Faith may be likened to the sun and science or knowledge to a candle, but nothing need prevent the sun and a candle from shining light on the same object together. So, there are certain things about God that we can obtain just through our own knowledge and reasoning, and there are higher truths that come directly from God himself. So, that's where we get that special infusion where the sunlight of God, you know, takes us where the flashlight of our own intellects cannot go. So, yes, go ahead, Matt.

No, I was going to say, that's excellent. I've also heard the analogy, faith is to reason what a telescope is to natural sight. Yeah, that's beautiful, too. Exactly. I love that. Also, very simple and straightforward, and it's taking us to see things that are far beyond what we can see naturally. But those things don't contradict or prove that what we see naturally is wrong. They give us a truth that we couldn't obtain, a further, deeper truth we couldn't obtain without them. Right. And what about the next virtue that is of hope, something I think that many of us are in desperate need of today?

Yeah, absolutely. And Thomas talks about the virtue of hope is, basically, hope is the hope that we're going to live eternally with God, and that God is going to give us the help that we need to get there with Him. He's going to give us things like these infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that if we will just be willing and cooperate with God, we will attain that eternally beatific vision with Him. God, we will attain that eternally beatific vision with Him. I'm reminded of Therese of Lisieux. I forget where, perhaps in her diary. She said something to the effect of, you know, I feel called to the great heights of holiness, and I know, Jesus, that you wouldn't inspire that aspiration within me unless you would give me the means necessary to attain it. I love that tremendous hope that she has. She looks at herself and she says, look, I'm, you know, I'm totally incapable of rising to the heights of holiness. I think she said something like, compared to the great saints,

if they would be likened to tremendous mountains, she's like a grain of sand trodden into the path. And yet she, through that virtue, that theological virtue of hope, she knew that Christ could accomplish in her what he inspired her to wish to attain. Ah, you know, that's beautiful, Matt. And it also reminds me of something that St. Catherine of Siena wrote in her dialogues regarding hope. She said we should never give in to despair, which would be a lack of hope, you know, kind of like denying God's limitless mercy. But she said that God told her that, you know, God was more offended not by Judas' betrayal of Jesus Christ, but by the fact that he did not think God could forgive him.

So, even for Judas, you know, God's mercy and forgiveness is there if we ask for it. So, we should never abandon hope. Pete I think many of us, at least sort of subconsciously, treat God's mercy. Do you remember that episode of Seinfeld, the soup Nazi? Oh, yes. And he says, he bangs on the counter, no soup for you, no more soup for you. And I think very often, you know, we might approach the sacrament of confession and we think, goodness gracious, I don't know how many times I've confessed this, maybe God's mercy is evaporating. But of course, to think that is to

limit God and to kind of make Him a bigger, slightly bigger version of us. That's so right. And when we do go through the sacrament of reconciliation, boom, the floodgates are open again to all God's graces every time. Excellent. And the seventh and final virtue is love. Pete Yeah, love or charity is the highest. And Thomas says that this is a virtue that will last eternally. Because, you know, once we're there with God in heaven, we're not going to need faith because faith is about things unseen and we will see.

We're not going to need hope that we'll be with God because we already will be. But that love will last forever. And also, I love the way Thomas talks about love, the virtue of charity while we're here on earth, because he compares it to the fires of a powerful furnace. And he said, the more powerful your furnace of love is, the farther it's going to reach. So it's going to reach out there to people you don't know. It's going to reach out to your enemies. And yet, at the same time, the more powerful that furnace is, the people closest to you are also going to get the most heat. So, your charity is also going to begin at home and burn just intensely for those people closest to you. Now, I suppose someone might say, are you telling me that a non-baptized person or a non-baptized person

who's an atheist can't exhibit this sort of charity, that it can only be infused? Well, I mean, a person, you know, can love within natural limits, but this is an infused love whereby we love God and neighbors through God, through God's grace. So, it is a special gift that enables us to do this. I think somebody said there have never been any atheist leprosy colonies. You know, when you look at people like Mother Teresa, you say, wow, that's what the theological virtue of charity looks like. Yeah, absolutely. Many of these natural virtues can only go so far, but the theological infused virtues or the gifts of the Holy Spirit take us far beyond.

For example, with the virtue of fortitude, you know, virtually any Catholic martyr, and there's countless numbers, have been given this great gift so they love God and the truth even more than their own bodies. Absolutely. Well, that's been really helpful. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Tell us about your latest book. Sure, sure. You know, when I came back to the church, I was so moved by St. Thomas Aquinas

that every book I've written was in some way or another inspired by Thomas. I'm actually holding one in my hand. Let me do the plug for you, because they tell me if you do the plug, it's a shameless plug, but if I do it, it's okay. And you may wish to speak about another book.

But I wanted to let all of our listeners know about this fantastic little book. It's called The One-Minute Aquinas, The Doctor's Quick Answers to Fundamental Questions. Now, it's a substantive book in that it's about 270 pages. But it's a really easy read. You can sit down over a cup of coffee and just read a chapter at a time. So, I want to throw that out there. That's put out by Sophia Press. It's called The One Minute Aquinas. I'd encourage everyone out listening to get that. What else are you working on? Well, I appreciate that because that book, when I came back to the church in 2004,

I wanted to write that book, but it took me about 10 years of study before I even could think about it. The last book is called The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Every Spiritual Warrior's Guide to God's Invincible Gifts. And as always, the core knowledge base here is the way St. Thomas Aquinas addresses these gifts. But I will note in passing that in studying these virtues, I also found that his good friend, the great Franciscan, St. Bonaventure, also did a Lenten series where he discussed each one of these seven gifts one by one and also gave us beautiful complimentary insight. So that's the last one, the ones on the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It was a great joy for me to be able to write that. Has that book been published yet? Yes, that book came out in December. That's a book, another from Sophia Institute Press. Great. Excellent. Well, thanks so Sophia Institute Press. Great. Excellent. Well, thanks so much for your time today. And just finally, what's your website online that people can visit?

DrVost.com. Just D-R-V-O-S-T.com. Excellent. Thanks for your time today. Oh, you're most welcome, Matt. God bless. Okay, thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Pints with Aquinas. I really hope that y'all are getting a lot out of these episodes. A couple of things I would like to ask you. Number one, if you haven't yet, consider joining the private Facebook group we have on, well, Facebook.

It's called Pints with Aquinas. It's obviously free, and we would just love to have you as part of the discussion. So if you're interested in beer or philosophy or St. Thomas Aquinas or theology, which I'm sure you are if you've listened this far, then why not join the discussion? Secondly, I'd like to ask you to please consider, if you haven't yet, rating Pints with Aquinas on iTunes. People tell me that the more ratings one gets, the higher that podcast will come up when people search different things on iTunes.

So that would be a tremendous help. Go to iTunes and consider rating the podcast. Until next week, God bless you. To carry you