Pints With Aquinas - 5 Common Objections to Hell Debunked by a Catholic Theologian | Dr. Ralph Martin | Last Call Ep. 27

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

It’s Last Call! Dr. Ralph Martin is back to tackle five of the toughest objections to the Church's teaching on hell. Enjoy these episodes and exclusive content ad free, one week early with DailyWire+: https://get.dailywire.com Pints: Last Call Ep. 27 - - - 📚Resources Mentioned: The Coming Judgement: Are We Ready? By Dr. Ralph Martin:  https://a.co/d/02Gw8n6s Truthly 30 Day Free Trial: https://get.truthly.ai/TlbX/MATT30 - - - Sponsors: Exodus 90 - Download the Exodus 90 app to start your 14-day Free trial today, or visit https://Exodus90.com/matt to learn more. Catholic Match - Visit https://CatholicMatch.com or download the app today. It’s free to get started. Find your forever. "Kazen Dayl and the Admiral of the Air" - Available on amazon and audible here: https://a.co/d/0dHAlHZG Learn more at: https://www.loganhaywardauthor.com - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe⁠⁠ 📲 Download the free Daily Wire app today on iPhone, Android, Roku, Apple TV, Samsung, and more. - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠⁠⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠⁠⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠⁠⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch⁠⁠ 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if a few minutes with God could change the direction of your entire day? With pray.com, you can begin each morning with powerful daily prayers, inspiring Bible stories, and messages created to strengthen your faith. Whether you need peace, encouragement, or a fresh start, pray.com helps you make prayer part of your everyday life. Download the pray.com app today. Hell was invented by the church to control people. That is so ignorant. It's so stupid. Jesus thought about hell before the church existed.

Most people aren't bad enough to go to hell. A loving God wouldn't torture someone in hell for all eternity. Cold showers, holy hours, and 2 a.m. night vigils. Join Father Columba Jordan and the Exodus 90 Brotherhood for the St. Michael's Lent Challenge. start August 12th. Download the Exodus 90 app today or visit Exodus 90.com slash Matt. Dr. Ralph Martin, thank you very much for being on last call. Well, it sounds pretty final. The last call. Speaking of final, you have written a book called The Coming Judgment, Are We Ready? And part of what you talk about here, of course, is the last things, death, judgment, heaven, and

hell and so I have five objections about hell or that's the most objectional doctrine is it it is yeah yeah yeah my senior pope when he wrote his book that the hell there is said that's the one the one doctrine that people really have a really hard time with and even people like c s lewis would say i wish it wasn't true either but it has the full weight of scripture and the patristics and tradition. Yeah. What do you think when you hear people say things like that? I don't wish, I wish it were, weren't true either. Do you think that's a wrong attitude to take? Well, I think it's an understandable attitude because we're speaking from our perspective and not God's perspective. And our perspective is pretty narrow, pretty limited, pretty time and spacebound,

and pretty dark relatively to the light of God. And so I feel like it's normal for us fallen human beings to not understand the height and the depths and the width either of God's love or his justice or his holiness. Because presumably from the vantage point of heaven, we'll praise God for his justice and for hell. Yeah. And we'll be amazed at his long-sufferingness, will be amazed at his mercy, will be amazed at how many chances he gave to people not to go to hell.

Yeah. I got a feeling that people are going to balk at what I just said there, right? From the vantage point of heaven, we'll praise God for hell. but phrase it differently. Suppose God exists, which he does. Suppose hell exists, which it does and he has showed us, then it seems wrong to say, I wish it weren't true, because we're saying, I wish, are we saying, what are we saying?

I wish that's something that God has ordained. Yeah, we're saying we have a better idea that God, than what should have happened. And quite honestly, time after time, doctrine after doctrine, experience after experience, we have to say, like Job said, I don't understand, but the Lord gives, the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord, because you're basically, your fundamental knowledge is that God is just, God is love. I don't understand now, but I will understand someday.

And when I do understand someday, I'll praise him for his wisdom, for his justice, for his love, and how justice and mercy really won in him. All right, well, we have these, let's just jump into him. Here's the first objection. A loving God wouldn't torture someone in hell for all eternity. Well, I would agree that a loving God wouldn't torture somebody in hell for all eternity, but God doesn't torture somebody in hell for all eternity. The fundamental reality about hell is that it's the choice of the people who are there,

not to humble themselves, not to submit, not to repent of their sins, is not to surrender themselves to the God who created them, to whom they owe everything. And they're saying no to all that. And so that puts them into a state of hell. You know, it puts them into a state of suffering because they're choosing it. It's what they want and it's what they're choosing, but it's hell.

I'm sure you've heard people object to eternal conscious torment, which is essentially what the church maintains, and have offered other options to try to reconcile the passages in scripture. And so people will talk about annihilationism. Yes. The idea that to be damned means essentially to go out of existence. So at the end of the world, there will be those in heaven, and then that's it, because everyone else will be annihilated.

And that's their way to try to reconcile the very obvious teaching of something like hell. Right. with that. So what's your objection to that? Why can't we accept that? Well, I can't accept that because God doesn't say that that's what's going to happen. And the church doesn't interpret scripture, that that's the correct way of interpreting it. There are scriptures, there's all kinds of scriptures that if you take just that scripture, you'll come into a heretical point of view because you can't just take an isolated scripture. You've got to take it how it all works together and how it can be harmonized.

You know, the church teaches that all scripture is one. And if there's an apparent contradiction, you've got to look for a way of harmonizing them type of thing. So there are scriptures that say, the wicked will be destroyed. And some people say, well, that means that they don't exist anymore. The church says, no, they're going to be destroyed and what God had in mind for them because they destroyed it themselves, type of thing. So without the church interpreting scripture, you can become an Aryan, you can become an annihilationist, you could become a Job was witness, you can become a what in those? what. And so that's why the Catholic Church is so important. If the Lord wanted people to really have the path to salvation stand out clearly, that he wanted a sacred scripture to accomplish

the purpose which it was created, that needed to be an authoritative body, just like there was at the beginning of the church that said, gee, all these books are circulating, which ones are really truthful, which ones are really giving us an accurate account of Jesus. And they said, these books and not these books. And so, you know, there's the internal, all. authenticity of the books themselves. They could be defended in lots of different ways like John Bergsmart does. But the bottom line is the church, the living tradition of the church, those who knew the apostles, those who were the apostles, those who heard their preaching and teaching said, this is what they taught, not that. This is how they understood it,

not that. And that's the bottom line. Well, speaking of the church, here is the second objection that I sometimes have heard. And many people are very willing to accept this. Hell was invented by the church, and it was invented by the church to control people. And maybe this took place in those nasty middle ages or something. Yeah, that is so ignorant. It's so stupid. I mean, hell wasn't invented by the church. Jesus taught about hell before the church existed. You know, Jesus thought about hell when he's preaching and teaching Galilee, we was gathering disciples before he even established a church, you know. So that was a fundamental part of his preaching and teaching.

Even the Jesus seminar that tried to pick out the really authentic things that Jesus said, the inauthentic things that he said, would agree that that's the primitive teaching of Jesus. That's part of his message. That's the theme of many of his parables. Is it possible that the church will one day come to, someone might ask, through doctrinal development, come to decide that hell is it? actually sure hell exists but no one goes there there we go well we can thread the needle that way someone might say well i would say that theoretically it's possible but that would fly against the whole

weight of scripture and tradition the whole weight of scripture and tradition doesn't give us numbers or percentages but it lets us know that people are there it doesn't definitively declare that but the whole thrust of the teaching leans in that direction broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are traveling that way, narrow is the door that leads to life. A few that are finding it, and the fact that few are finding it isn't the will of God, God wills the whole universe to be saved. But the reality is we see with their own eyes, lots of people reject, lots of people love their sin, lots of people don't want to repent, you know. So it's, you know, even when Carl Rerh in, you know, while World War II was raging and just after

World War II. He was spinning his theory of the anonymous Christian that, well, people deep down are already really a Christian. They have this thing called a supernatural existential, they're older related to God, and they don't do something terrible to deny it. They're all saved. This was while the Jews were being carted off to concentration camps by really evil people, and really awful things were being done. And so he has this optimistic view that everybody's basically could and it's just not true. Just not true. Okay.

Well, here's another objection. Most people aren't bad enough to go to hell. And this is the sort of thing that I heard as a kid and many people here. Yeah, sure, maybe Hitler, maybe, is in hell. Mussolini, others, but that's about it. Most of us are too good to go to hell. Yeah, we're not serial killers, so we don't have anything to worry about. Well, I would say that, you know, when the Lord speaks to the prophet Ezekiel, he says things like, you know, if the just man is just all his life, but at the end turns away, he's going to die.

If he is bad all his life, but at the end repents, he's going to be saved. And then the Lord... This is in Ezekiel? Ezekiel, yeah, Ezekiel 18. I immediately think of Moses, who was denied entry into the promised land because of his disobedience. Yeah, yeah. But then people say, then the Lord says to Ezekiel, people are going to say, well, your ways are not fear, Lord, your ways are not fair. And then the Lord responds saying, it's not my ways that are unfair. It's your ways that are unfair because it's as high as the sky is above the earth or my wisdom and my thoughts above your wisdom and your thoughts. So we need to always remember that there's a huge difference between God and us. And when there's a difference of opinion between us and God, I think we've got to go with God, you know,

because we're so limited in our understanding of things. We're so limited and seeing the big picture, we're so limited. We don't see the end, we didn't see the beginning. Only God knows the beginning and the end. Only God knows what's on the other side of the tapestry. Yeah, I mean, Thomas Aquinas in the first part of the Sumer, almost the very beginning, I think,

talks about the necessity of sacred doctrine, right? And he's responding to those who would say, we don't really need theology. We don't need God to reveal himself because everything we can know, we can know through philosophy. And I bring that up because I know there's been times in my life, I will sit down and I will philosophize, you know, and I'll think, gee, that's pretty good. Yeah. You know, God is all loving. Yeah.

And an all loving God wouldn't want anybody go to hell. And since he gets what he wants, and I'd like you to respond to this, therefore nobody's in hell. And I think that's a lovely little good argument there. And then I'll open up the scriptures. And it's like a splash of cold water in the face. And I got a decision to make at that point. Do I want to follow my own reasoning, my own philosophy, or do I want to follow the word of God? And it also seems interesting to me that many of us wanting to get out of accepting the reality of the existence of hell will try our very best to go, well, the Greek word technically means this.

and he's using images of fire, but like, how would there be fire in hell? And we do this. But what's interesting to me is if we took all of those verses that we're desperately trying to avoid, and suppose all of those verses had to do with heaven or something we very much wanted to believe, there would be no such desire to get around them. We would just very much be okay with them at face value. So maybe talk to that, just this, maybe the dark and intellect that goes into the scriptures. Yeah, I think it's rooted also in not wanting to be accountable,

not wanting for there to really be consequences to things we do that are not right, but wanting to be able to get our free pass on doing whatever we want to do without having to worry about punishment or consequences, even natural consequences. You know, like we betray a friend and a friend is angry at us. We don't want that. We say, why are you angry? It says, it would be you betrayed me, you know. There's consequences to our actions.

we want to escape consequences to our actions. You know, we're living in that culture where everybody gets a trophy, right? You know, the winner's get a trophy, the loses got a trophy, the person who gets a trophy, you know. It's sort of like there's no consequences. Now, Paul said in Romans chapter 11, consider both the kindness and the severity of God. He's saying we can't lose sight of mercy, we can't lose sight of justice.

You got to consider both. of those things. Both are part of God's nature. He combines them in an absolutely perfect way. We can't express it perfectly. But for the last 50 years, Matt, all we've been hearing about is the kindness of God, honestly. So there's been a big distortion in people's psyches. We've been accustomed to a God of kindness but not a God of justice, a God of mercy, but not a God of holiness. And so we do have to go through a chiropractic adjustment, so to speak. Things of God, a little out of shape, out of alignment in our minds, in our souls, in our emotions. And so we need to, I think, in order to come to a healthy Christianity, healthy Catholicism, we need to be willing to be

adjusted out of a distorted psyche that was created at us by avoiding half of who God's nature is. So I'm an old man, and I know that I'm an old man because I don't like texting. I look at the younger generation and they just have like a full-on relationship through text messages. And I've said to my children on multiple occasions, just call them. And they look at me like, why would I do that? Here's the thing. You cannot ultimately develop a relationship over text message. And a dating app, for example, works the same way. A dating app should have one job, to put itself out of a job. Catholic match is a tool, not a destination. If the conversation is going well, don't spend weeks just texting back and forth over the app. Suggest coffee. Go on a walk after Sunday Mass. You'll

learn more in one hour together than 50 messages ever could. And I know what you're thinking, but Matt, you're a boomer. I am, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Visit Catholicmatch.com. And remember, the goal isn't more messages. It's meeting the right person. And Catholic Match can help you with that. Catholicmatch.com and be sure to download the app. Every time I advertise this on my show, there's at least one comment saying, I met my wife, I met my husband. through Catholic match. Seems to be working for them. Might work for you. Check it out. A lot of us have a misconception about freedom. What is freedom? Well, when we talk about freedom, we can talk about being free from something, such as constraints, and this is usually what people

mean today when they talk about freedom. But we also need to be talking about freedom for something. Right. So the truest freedom is to be free to be who we are and not enslaved to our passions and our sins. This is why I really appreciate Exodus 90. It's an invitation to step away from the distractions and habits that keep us spiritually numb and create space for prayer, fraternity, and a deeper encounter with the Father's love. The goal isn't hardship for its own sake. The goal is freedom in Christ. Join Father Colomber Jordan, CFR and the Exodus 90 Brotherhood for the St. Michael's Lent Challenge happening now through September 29th. Invite a few men in your life to begin the journey together. St. Michael's Lent with Father Columbar Jordan is happening

now. Download the Exodus 90 app to start your 14-day free trial or visit Exodus 90.com slash Matt to learn more. That's Exodus 90.com slash Matt. Become the man you were created to be. Now you did quote Ezekiel in saying that the good can choose against God in the end and the bad can choose for God. But maybe give you one more shot at this because this is an objection. I hear a lot. I'm not bad enough to go to hell. Yeah. Well, how do we know? How do we know really what's good? How do we know what God really expects of a human being?

You know, when the Lord met somebody, he said, the person said, good master. And Jesus said, nobody's good except God. So compared to God, we're not in a great place, you know. And when Jesus revealed the secrets of hearts, he said to the Pharisees, it's not the food that goes into your body that makes you unclean. It's what comes out of your heart. What comes out of your heart? Envy.

Jealouses. Lust. Greed. Murder. Hostility. Unforgiveness. Jealousy. These are the things that make you unclean.

And then the book of religion says no unclean thing can enter the kingdom. So these unclean things in us need to be purified. and if they're seriously unclean, and if we cling to them as something we will never give up, people do say things like, I can never forgive that person. And we pray the Lord's prayer. And it says, forgive us our trespasses

as we forgive those who trespass against us. Like, what are we doing, praying judgment on us? Do we realize what we're saying? Do we realize that? You know, Jesus says, if you refuse to forgive your people, your brother, you will not be forgiven by your Heavenly Father. So this is such a high value to the Lord

that you can be, quote, a good person and not kill anybody, but because you're hating your brother and forgiving to let go of it, you're endangering your eternal salvation. There's a whole list of gravely distorted things in the human soul that script tells us can keep us out of the kingdom of God depending on the seriousness of them,

depending on how deeply we hold them in our soul and our depth of our refusal to let go of them. You know, even the things that people today consider just normal, Come on, get with the times. 1 Corinthians chapter 6, Paul says, don't anybody deceive you. The immoral will not enter the kingdom of God.

And then he spells it out. The fornicator, the adulterer, the person who engages in homosexual activity, not talking about orientation or temptation, but talking about doing sexual things with people of the same sex. The drunkard, the robber, you know, so on, will not enter the kingdom of God.

But then the good news is the next sentence. but such were some of you, but you've been set free by the cleansing waters of God, the mercy of God, the waters of baptism, the Holy Spirit. But then later on he goes to say, First Corinthians 3, I think that's the text that you use sometimes, says, your temples of the Holy Spirit. And then he says, how dare you, you're members of the body of Christ, you're one spirit and one body with Jesus. So how dare you take your own body, which is sacred, and make it join it with the members of the of a prostitute. God forbid, he says, you know. Thank you. This next one is not so much an objection. It's really a question that people find objectionable, namely, doesn't the church teach that unbaptized

babies go to hell? Yeah. Well, actually, Matt, for a long time, the church did teach that. But let me explain before people get shocked about how can the church, how can the church teach terror. For a long time, the prevailing theological opinion in the church was that what scripture says about, you need to be born again of water in the spirit, that without the sacment of baptism, you can't be saved. And that is a teaching of the church and teaching of scripture. And so in order to kind of deal with the baby not having been capable of committing a serious sin, freely chosen. Even though they had original sin, they were born into a situation of alienation from God.

They didn't deserve the pains of hell, but they weren't able to be born again at water and the spirit into supernatural life. So the theological opinion was this, this place called limbo of natural happiness. Well, this is different to hell, though. You began by saying the church taught that... Well, it's considered a level of hell, but a level... And it's a distinction that... Yes, yes, it's not...

The hell of the damned way. Yeah, it's not the hell of the dam, but they call it the limbo. Limbo, it's like a borderline territory, you know. So basically the shocking thing is that the church did teach that babies can't go to heaven. There you go. So, you know, which is part of the concern type of thing.

Now, what the catechism, the Catholic Church says, it's true that the only sure way we know of anybody getting to heaven by baptism, faith, persevering to the end type of thing. But because we know the mercy of God, we can reasonably hope that God has a provision for babies who buy without baptism to be in heaven. But we don't know for sure.

So all we can do is hope and pray. Now, unfortunately, I mean, and there's some theologians whom I respect to, I think can make a good case, that baptism of desire can handle this case, like when parents were planning to baptize their babies or wanting to baptize their babies, but the baby died before that could happen, baptism of desire would come into effect because that would apply. On the other hand, people sometimes jump to conclusion is that because it's

possible that God has a merciful way of having unbaptized babies, even baptized people, go to heaven, that everybody does. So we just don't know. It's similar to, we don't know. Some areas the Lord hasn't revealed to us for his own reasons. So I think the Lord wants us to take very, very seriously the importance of baptizing babies. But when a baby dies without baptism, not because of the negligence of the parents, but just because God may have a way of working things out for them. This might sound harsh to people, but I actually find it tremendously humble in this sense, the church says in the catechism of the Catholic Church that the church knows of no other means by which to assure someone's salvation. I love that the church doesn't edit

God's mail and hand it on to us. It gives us what it knows. And it says what it doesn't know, and that's important. It's important that we are very clear what God is revealed, and also important that we don't fill in the blanks when he hasn't filled in the blanks. Yeah. So the catechism says that while we are bound to the sacraments, God is not bound by them. And so God may choose to save us in a way, not only to himself. Right. Yeah, that's really helpful. Okay, final, I guess this is a question, not so much an objection, but shouldn't we then be terrified? Shouldn't we Christians walk around if hell is a real possibility?

Shouldn't we, I don't know, walk around terrified that we're going to go to hell? Well, we should do what St. Paul tells us to do, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, but not a debilitating, pathological fear and trembling, but a very healthy fear of the Lord. Now, a lot of times people say, well, fear of the Lord doesn't mean being afraid to go into hell. Fear of the Lord means respecting the reverencing God. That's true. But many of the saints, including St. Ignatius and many others say, a servile fear of hell is very good at the beginning of the spiritual life. It's really helpful to get you to turn away from sin and not want to experience the consequences of unrepented sin.

But servile fear should grow into filial feel. it should grow into whereas his perfect love cast out fear. So the fear of hell should not be the dominant thing, you know, in our life as we grow in the spiritual life, but the fear of hell at the beginning of the spiritual life, and even along the way, little reminders remembering can help strengthen us against temptation, but we're not supposed to live in a state of fear of hell. We're supposed to live in a state of joy in the Holy Spirit, gratitude for the relationship with Jesus, praising God for the salvation that he's made in a state of joy.

available to us and the hope that he's given us. You know, St. Peter says, set all your hope on the gift that's coming to you in Christ, Jesus appears. So sometimes people are scared to talk about the second coming. You know, in my book, I'm trying to kind of balance all that. But St. Peter says, set all your hope on the gift that's coming to you in Christ Jesus appears. What's the gift?

Resurrection from the dead, eternal life. So we should be looking for it with anticipation and joy to what's coming to us as we walk through the fidelity, the pain, the suffering, denying ourselves, carrying up our cross in this life. And then Jesus also says, you know, when you see all these scary things happen, look up in joy because the fullness of your salvation is coming. So for Christians, we're not supposed to be living in fear of the second coming, the final judgment of hell. We're supposed to have taken them into account in a mature, healthy way. We should use them as a resource to help us when we're getting confused or wavering as a strength against temptation, but our life should be

fundamentally characterized by joy, hope, gladness, looking forward to what's coming. Because the same St. Paul who said, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, also said, part of me wants to be away from you so that I can be with the Lord. Exactly, exactly. So you tell me, I'm going to say what I think, and you tell me if I'm wrong to think it, Christ is my salvation. My hope is not in me. It is not in my deeds or my own righteousness. It is in him. He is the mountain upon which I stand. If I jump off that mountain, which you cannot do by accident, then I need to repent or I will go to hell. But I'm not going to jump off this

mountain. Therefore, I'm confident in my own salvation. Yeah, I say it's even stronger than that. I say, Jesus says, nobody can snatch my sheep out of my hands. The Father will not allow my sheep to be snatched out of my hands. The only way we can get out of the hands of the Lord is to pry ourselves loose, and that's not something you do by accident. That's really helpful to point out, right? This distinction between venial and mortal sin matters, and that mortal sin is not something you go, whoops. Yeah, yeah. It takes effort. It takes... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Culpable of mortal sin definitely does, yeah. Two of my favorite novels of old time would have to be the Brothers Karamazov and the Lord of the Rings.

Beautifully written stories that reveal much about the human heart. One thing I've always appreciated is that the best stories don't just merely entertain us. They shape our imagination. That's why I was excited to hear about a new novel called Cazendale and the Admiral of the Air. It's a steampunk-inspired adventure that follows a bookish young man forced to flee his privileged life and survive in a dangerous crime-ridden world. Along the way, you'll meet an unforgettable cast of characters, including a nerdy draft dodger, a teenage quack doctor, giant salamander poachers, monks, mercenaries, and a runaway aviatrics. What really sets this book apart is that

suspense and theology go hand in hand. And unlike so much modern fiction, you won't find profanity getting in the way of a great story. It's even something you can read aloud or listen to with your older children or young adults. Find Carsendale and the Admiral of the Air on Amazon or Audible and learn more at Logan Haywoodauthor.com. What is some annoying things you hear people say about hell that you wish they wouldn't? Well, one of the most annoying things is them ignoring it. Not paying attention to it. I mean, Jesus talks about it for a purpose.

He thinks it's going to help us to know about hell. Yeah. If Jesus was a CCD teacher, he'd be kicked out. He might be. It depends on the parish. If he was in Germany or not. He might never have been allowed into the building because security would have turned them back.

Who's this scraggly looking guy acting like God? he must be mentally ill. That's what they said about him, isn't it? Yeah. His disciple says he must be disturbed. He must be crazy. He must have a demon. Yeah.

I mean, Jesus was disturbing. Well, your book is called The Coming Judgment. Are we ready? We'll put a link in the description below for people to check it out. Any final words? Well, thanks for talking about these things, Matt. I think we need it. You know, we need it every now and then.

And we don't need to talk about hell all the time. But every now and then we do. Sometime. Yeah, what was that excellent quote? Like, yeah, we shouldn't be talking about hell all the time. Because that's what people will say, you shouldn't be talking about hell all the time. Yeah. And you want to say, can I talk about hell sometimes?

Well, Father Corby Griffin, the rector of the seminary in Washington, D.C. said, he thinks not talking about hell undermines evangelization, undergiveness, all kinds of things. And he says, we shouldn't talk about hell all the time, but shouldn't we talk about it sometimes? And I think if people were honest, they would say, well, no, that's really what they mean. Some people don't want you to talk about at all. Yeah, they don't want to be part of the faith. They want to make a Catholicism in their own image.

You know, cafeteria Catholicism where you pick and choose isn't a harmless sport. It isn't like a, you know, acceptable option. You can be a cafeteria Catholic. No, being a cafeteria Catholic means that you're rejecting parts of the Word of God. you're disobeying and rebellion against the structure of salvation and creation that God is given to the human race. So, yeah, all I want to do, Matt, is understand, hear the Word of God and do it and pass it on faithfully. That's it. I don't want to focus on this or that.

I want to focus on what God's revealing to us for our salvation. God bless you, Ralph, and thanks to being on the show. Okay, thank you.