Pints With Aquinas - 5 Myths About Catholic Sexual Ethics DEBUNKED | Christopher West | Last Call Ep. 29

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Starting point is 00:01:50 The church wants to invade my bedroom. The two become one flesh, and it refers to Christ and the church. This is my body given for you. Masturbation is self-care. NFP is the same as contraception. The church is sexist because it won't allow women to be priests. The natural reality reveals the supernatural reality.

Starting point is 00:02:13 What does that say? Christopher West, thank you very much for sitting down with me. Matthew Fred, it is my honor. There are many myths about what the Catholic Church teaches and thinks about sex. Why asking me those? Well, because I couldn't think we're going to talk about sex. I remember Dr. Peter Craft saying that people think the Catholic Church teaches about sex what airports teach about smoking, namely, okay, if you have to do it, will you at least do it in there?

Starting point is 00:02:46 That is good. I love Peter Crave for those very keen insights he has. So you haven't seen these myths. We're going to throw them at you. Who knows, maybe I will overturn your Catholic beliefs. I doubt it. I doubt it. Myth one, the church wants to invade.

Starting point is 00:03:00 invade my bedroom. Yeah. Another way to put it, the church, why is the church so obsessed with sex? What do we mean when we say or feel that? And I get it. I, of course, I've heard this plenty of times. The church is obsessed with sex. Why don't you stay it on my bedroom? I would say the church is keenly interested in teaching the world how to love. And the fundamental call to love is inscribed in our bodies. The gospel is summed up in the words of Christ, love one another as I have loved you. This is the summary of the whole beautiful, glorious picture.

Starting point is 00:03:42 And one of the great insights of John Paul II's teaching in particular, he's not the only one to say it, is that that call to love, love one another as I have loved you, is chiseled by God, right in the sexual difference. Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church. For this reason a man leaves his father and mother,

Starting point is 00:04:05 cleaves to his wife, the two become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and it refers to Christ and the church. The church is keenly interested because the church loves all of humanity and wants all of humanity to rejoice in the glory of loving as God loves, that's what it's all about.

Starting point is 00:04:30 And the call to love as God loves is chiseled in our sexuality. So the keen interest is in witnessing to the truth of love. And the idea that, you know, why is the church invading my bedroom? Well, if you're baptized, you're bringing the church with you

Starting point is 00:04:49 into the bedroom. What is happening in the bedroom is meant to be the living out of Christ's love for the church. We can be uncomfortable with that. If we really press into that, we're like, uh, uh, uh, and we want to put churchy things over here and sex things over there. And that's exactly what the enemy wants us to do.

Starting point is 00:05:17 They belong together. Spirituality and sexuality go together. And wrestling with our, our own discomforts in that regard, fears in that regard, ambivalence in that regard. Can I just have my churchy Sunday stuff over here? And I'm going to dip into a little porn over here. Well, if you're dipping into porn over here, what's going on there? That's a diabolic mockery of a heavenly reality.

Starting point is 00:05:43 Porn has to be untwisted so that we can see the great mystery. What is the great mystery? The divine love is meant to be revealed through our bodies, through our sexuality. Great answer. I'm sure you could talk about this. I'd go on and I'll pause. That's excellent. What's one book you might point people to about this that you've written, just in general, if they want to learn more? Start with Fill These Hearts. Okay, all right, fill these hearts. We'll put a link to that book. God's sex and the meaning of life. Myth number two, and you'll have to explain what NFP is. NFP is the same as contraception. Yeah, so natural family planning versus contraception. Let's define our terms.

Starting point is 00:06:25 just Catholic. Yeah, it's just Catholic contraception. That's what people say. Okay, contraception is the choice to activate my generative powers and thwart them at the same time. Natural family planning is, I mean, that's the phrase people use. I don't, I don't think it's the best descriptor. I think periodic abstinence is more accurate. where rather than choosing to activate my generative power and thwart it at the same time, I'm choosing not to activate my generative power. And whenever I do choose to activate my generative power, I never thwart it. Whoever uses natural family planning appropriately,

Starting point is 00:07:13 never, never activates the generative power and thwarts it at the same time. What they do is they understand the cycle of a woman. They understand that this is the way God made it. This might be news to people. They might not even realize that you can tell when a woman is fertile or not. With modern methods of natural family planning, you can know with 99 plus percent accuracy when a woman is fertile and when a woman is infertile. And actually, the window in which conception can happen is only about 24 to 48 hours.

Starting point is 00:07:50 However, sperm can live for five to seven days. Right? So, funny enough, when you know the biology and how it works, you might have been conceived in the grocery store. Wow. Thank you. Your mom was pushing the cart, you know, had intercourse a few days ago, pushing the cart. Whoop, I just conceived.

Starting point is 00:08:11 Wow. Because the sperm live in a woman's body is designed to keep sperm alive until ovulation happens for a certain amount of time. I can already see this is going to be the title of the video, pregnant in the grocery store. No, conceived. Conceived in the grocery store. No, it's just a humorous way of-

Starting point is 00:08:27 No, it's an interesting point. I didn't really think about that. Yeah, reflecting on the beauty of the design, right? We are made to bring life into the world, and this is a good and beautiful thing. There are also good reasons not to bring life into the world. The church has never taught that you're obligated to have as many children as as physically possible.

Starting point is 00:08:48 In fact, John Paul II said, you may have a moral duty not to bring another child into the world. However, there is a big difference between rendering the act sterile and abstaining from a naturally fertile act. And some will say, oh, come on, what is the big difference between sterilizing the act yourself and just waiting till it's naturally infertile? to which I would respond, what is the big difference between killing grandma and just waiting till she dies naturally? Well, I'll tell you the big difference. One is a serious sin called murder. The other, grandma's still dead, but there's no sin involved whatsoever because her death is an act of God. And I just want everybody to pause right there and ponder that. If you can understand the difference between euthanasia and natural death, you can understand the difference between contraception and natural family planning.

Starting point is 00:09:54 Same difference. I'm not saying contraception is murder. What I'm saying is in natural death and natural infertility, God remains God. In euthanasia and contraception, we are taking the powers of life in. into our own hands and we are making ourselves like God. That's the original sin to make ourselves like God. What practical advice do you give to someone who says, I don't know if I have a good enough reason or not, and I'm afraid that if I don't have a good enough reason and I abstain, am I sinning? Yes. This has to be the motivator, love. Whether I engage in intercourse or whether I abstain from

Starting point is 00:10:38 intercourse, am I being motivated by love? If I'm being motivated by selfishness in either case, I'm not being motivated by love. And the purpose of the sexual act is to express divine love. Divine love is generous. It generates, and this is why God gave us genitals, so we could image his generous, generating love. You may have good reason not to engage your generative powers. Okay, don't activate them. But if you activate them, you are in a pact, a covenant pact with the Creator, with the Lord and Giver of Life. And you are saying, I surrender to the Lord and giver of life. A woman said to me years ago, I'll never forget it. 30 years ago, I was given a presentation on this. And she said, Christopher, I've never heard any of this. We're supposed to be participating in the life-giving love of the Trinity.

Starting point is 00:11:40 Never thought of it. And she said, but what if I want to have sex with my husband and we don't want the Holy Spirit there? And I was like, oh, that is exactly why contraception is so damaging to a marriage, because that's exactly what you're saying, whether you know it or not. Who's the Holy Spirit? What do we say in the Nicene Creed? The Lord, the giver of life. When we render, and this is the keyword, when we render our genitals unable to generate, we're saying, I don't want the Holy Spirit to be part of this act. Even in the naturally infertile times, a couple can and should say, Holy Spirit, every time you come together in the marriage bed, you should pray. Holy Spirit, if it is your will, if it is your will, let there be life. You may know with 99% certainty it's not his will. Okay, it's not his will. But it's a his hands, you're not taking the powers of life into your own.

Starting point is 00:12:39 Every vocation, whether it is to marriage or religious life, is going to require discernment and making a choice. And sometimes when we make that choice, the religious order or the man or woman that we're interested in pursuing is going to deny us, is going to say, actually, I don't feel called into this relationship. And that's okay. Rejection isn't the system breaking. the system working. Every, no thank you, get you one step closer to the right, yes. Catholic

Starting point is 00:13:12 match exists to help faithful Catholics actually meet and discern marriage, not endlessly wonder what if. Don't let summer become an I'll restart in the fall excuse. The momentum you build now carries into the rest of the year. So I want to encourage you to seriously consider Catholic match. You can start your journey at Catholicmatch.com or download the app. It's free to get started. And I'll be honest, I mean, because I've heard so many great reviews from people, like individuals who don't even work for Catholic match, this is something I would try if I was single. But I'm not, so I won't. But if you are, you should consider it. A lot of us have a misconception about freedom. What is freedom? Well, when we talk about freedom, we can talk about

Starting point is 00:13:54 being free from something, such as constraints, and this is usually what people mean today when they talk about freedom. But we also need to be talking about freedom for something. Right. So the truest freedom is to be free to be who we are and not enslaved to our passions and our sins. This is why I really appreciate Exodus 90. It's an invitation to step away from the distractions and habits that keep us spiritually numb and creates space for prayer, fraternity and a deeper encounter with the Father's love. The goal isn't hardship for its own sake. The goal is freedom in Christ. Join Father Colomber Jordan, CFR and the Exodus 90 Brotherhood for the St. Michael. Lent Challenge happening now through September 29th. Invite a few men in your life to begin the

Starting point is 00:14:41 journey together. St. Michael's Lent with Father Columber Jordan is happening now. Download the Exodus 90 app to start your 14-day free trial or visit Exodus 90.com slash Matt to learn more. That's Exodus 90.com slash Matt. Become the man you were created to be. Third myth. And if by now you don't realize that you shouldn't be playing this in front of children, you should have realized that probably because of the title, but please watch this first before you decide whether or not young people should watch. Because I got a question here, and it has to do with masturbation. There's a myth in today's culture, it's been here for a long time, that masturbation is self-care. Isn't it funny how we put these euphemisms on to dress up something ugly? That it's necessary, that it's good.

Starting point is 00:15:26 Yes, we love, we love to use language that justifies our... Hooking up, right? Women's health care. A. abortion and so on. Why is the church against something that's necessary and good is what they is what they say? Well, what is necessary and good for the human person. What is necessary and good for the human person is to learn how to love as God loves. No one, no human being will find what he or she is looking for if he or she does not learn how to love as God loves. We're back to what I said earlier. The summary of the whole of life comes in those words of Christ, love one another as I have loved you. And we're back again to the fundamental fact that God has

Starting point is 00:16:15 chiseled that call to love as he loves in the sexual difference. With original sin that what God created, the sexual drive, the sexual yearning, the sexual desire that God created in the beginning before sin messed it up was exactly the desire to love divinely. The sentiment of male sexual desire in the beginning before sin messed it up was, this is my body given for you. It is an outward pouring of oneself for another in sacrificial love. The sentiment of erotic desire for a woman before sin thwarted it, messed it up was, let it be done to me according to your word. Let me receive this love, let me return this love, and let it bear the fruit that God wants it to bear. With original

Starting point is 00:17:15 sin, erotic desire has gone from an outward gift of self. It's become inverted, and it's now a desire to please myself. Masturbation is the epitome of the inversion of the inversion of of eros. And those who are caught in that trap of masturbating, as long as they're caught in that trap, thank God we can be freed from that trap. But as long as you are in the grips of that, you are incapacitating yourself to be a gift. If it's just about me, I'm pleasing myself. Take someone, God bless us all. We know how difficult it is in our culture to live chastely. But just to pick a common scenario, 13-year-old boy learns how to masturbate. Say he marries at 25, 12 years later.

Starting point is 00:18:12 And say even, they saved sex for marriage, but he masturbated the whole way up to the day before the wedding. What's the wedding night going to be? How has his whole psychosexual development been formed? Please myself. When I feel the itch, I scratch it. This man is not in control of his desires. His desires are in control of him. And whenever you are not in control of your desires,

Starting point is 00:18:39 but they're in control of you, you're going to try to control others to gratify your desires. Well put, yeah. This man is not going to be capacitated to be a gift on his wedding night. He's going to be masturbating, but now he's going to be using his wife's body to do it.

Starting point is 00:18:53 And she will feel it. She will not feel loved and honored as an unrepeatable person. She will feel used and manipulated as an object. for his selfish indulgence. And vice versa, it's been so depressing to see the proliferation of vibrators in places like CVS. Talk about a sign of the degradation and solopsism that our culture is plunging into.

Starting point is 00:19:15 Yes, yes. And I never want it to sound just like a man's problem. It goes the other way too, and I'm glad you said that. What does it do to do to a woman, do you know? So I like to think that masculinity boiled down could be thought of as strength on behalf of others, right? This is my body given up for you. and how masturbation pornography trains us to say the opposite.

Starting point is 00:19:33 This is your body taken by me. We kind of miss the point of manhood. Not being a woman, I don't know. I know you're not a woman either, but presumably you speak to women. What does it do to them? Well, I think if you take it to its extreme, it becomes my body, my choice.

Starting point is 00:19:47 Okay. That would be the... Interesting. The kind of furthermost expression of this inversion. Yeah. Right? My body, my choice. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:59 Well, the mystery. is that somebody else's body is now within you because you are designed by God to carry another. There's another person in you with a body that reveals this divine mystery. It is a stunning, stunning truth that human life begin. I mean, we just seem so normal. But when you ponder it, what a mystery. What a mystery that we all begin our lives in another. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:34 This mystery of indwelling. And it's something divine because what does Christ say? The Father in me and I in the Father and you in us. The theology of the body reveals that indwelling in the very act of generation and in the very first nine months of our existence. We have to return to an awe and wonder of the mystery. Absolutely. Absolutely. Myth four. Living together before marriage is the only way to determine compatibility. It's archaic and repressive to tell men and women to stay apart until marriage. Well, here we have another euphemism, living together. Yeah. Right. There's not that I ever recommend it, but if we're strictly just listening to those words, living together and not using it as a euphemism, there is.

Starting point is 00:21:28 nothing inherently wrong with a man and a woman being under the same roof. That's not itself sin. Again, I'm not encouraging this, but I'm just trying to clarify, why do we call it living together? What you're actually doing is engaging in the marital act when you're not married. Okay, I don't like the way we term it when we say premarital sex is wrong, because that makes it sound like, oh, post-marital sex is okay. Pre and post, if those are the qualifiers, we're not getting at the essence of it. I like to speak instead of marital sex versus non-marital or even anti-marital sex. What does that mean? Sex has a meaning, and the meaning is, this is my body given for you. Let it be done to me according to your word. It's divine.

Starting point is 00:22:27 a divine language. John Paul II says, our bodies have a language and the language is prophetic. Why? What's a prophet meant to do? Proclaim the truth of God's love. What is that truth? God's love is free. They do not take my life from me, Jesus says. I lay it down freely. It's total. There's no reservation. This is my body given for you with no half measure. He loved us to the end, scripture says. He does not ration the gift of the spirit. It's a free, a total, or unreserved gift of self. It's faithful. I will never leave you.

Starting point is 00:23:06 I will never forsake you, Jesus says. It's life-giving. I've come that my bride might have life and have it to the full. Free, total, faithful, fruitful love. That's how Christ loves. Another name for that kind of love is marriage. That's what a man and a woman commit to at the altar. Have you come here freely?

Starting point is 00:23:27 to give yourselves wholeheartedly. Yes, we have. Do you promise to be faithful unto death? Yes, we do. Do you promise to receive children lovingly from God? Yes, we do. They just expressed with words, we are committing to love as God loves.

Starting point is 00:23:44 And then, when they come together in the marital act, this is where the words of the wedding vows become flesh, where we express with the language of our bodies the marital love we just committed to or at least we're meant to. Yeah. I remember years ago I was doing marriage prep and this couple raised their hands

Starting point is 00:24:09 and I had challenged them lovingly to save sex and she raised her hands. Come on, Christopher, we're getting married in a month. What's the difference between us having sex now and us having sex then? And I said to her, well, that's exactly. the problem. There will be no difference. And what you're doing right now is not marital. And there's no magic trick on the wedding day that suddenly makes what you're going to do that night,

Starting point is 00:24:37 marital. And if you've been training yourself in non-marital sex, which is we're going to have sex to try it out to see if we're compatible or you give me the pleasure I like, Marital sex is either something you give yourself to or you don't. There's no trying it out. If you're trying it out, it's not marital. Yeah. So you're training yourself in lying for months or years, and there's no trick that suddenly makes it honest.

Starting point is 00:25:12 You're going to bring those same non-marital or even antimerital attitudes with you right into... And to use another analogy I know you've used and have heard, people will say, well, you wouldn't buy a car without test driving at first. What does that say? You just treated that person like a product. That person is not a product. You can't experiment. You can't try out another person. The person demands, if we're honest, if we really look at our hearts and what we really desire, We want to be seen and known as indispensable, irreplaceable, and unrepeatable. What does sex look like when it expresses to another person, you are indispensable.

Starting point is 00:26:03 I will never throw you away. You are irreplaceable. I will never replace you with someone else. You are unrepeatable. There's no other you, and I can't imagine comparing you. or measuring you against somebody else. We want to be loved and seen and known as indispensable, irreplaceable, and unrepeatable. And the church is inviting us to recognize what we're made for, what we long for,

Starting point is 00:26:34 and never settle for anything less. Final myth is that the church is sexist because it won't allow women to be priests. Yes. There are many things that men and women can both do. Women are right to stand up in the modern world against an exaggerated emphasis on the difference of the sexes, which has been part of culture, where no, a woman can't be an attorney because she menstruates or whatever. There's nothing about a woman being a woman that means she can't be an attorney. And we can go the other way too and say, you know, with a certain stereotypical exaggeration of the sex differences, men might have been afraid to do what might have been

Starting point is 00:27:30 traditionally called women's work. Even just things like changing the diaper. Yeah. Yeah. Even those kind of things. Recognizing, hey, we've exaggerated that and there should be more interchange here is appropriate. But in the end, there is why. thing that a woman can do, at least one, that I will never be able to do. And that's conceive

Starting point is 00:27:56 a child, bear that child, birth that child, and nurse that child at the breast. A woman has to do that. That's where the sexual difference matters. There's one thing at least a man can do that a woman will never be able to do. And that's impregnate, inseminate, be a father, right? If people priesthood has nothing to do with that essential difference, there's no reason a woman can't do it. Okay. But if priesthood has something essential to do with fathering and fatherhood, paternity, and insemination, the giving of the seed, then it is right to recognize only a man can do it. And priesthood is not a career choice.

Starting point is 00:28:47 Priesthood is spiritual fatherhood. And this is why a man trains to be a priest in a seminary. Because he's learning to give that spiritual seed. A woman is absolutely right to say, hey, I can be a doctor, I can be a lawyer, I can be an astronaut, I can be a father. No, you can't be a father. Only a man can be a father.

Starting point is 00:29:16 This is where the sexual difference matters. Only a woman can be a mother. This is where the sexual difference matters. So I got a question for you. What content or media have you consumed today? Yes, Pines to the Quietness, because you're awesome. Thank you very much. But what else?

Starting point is 00:29:31 Your Instagram feed, X, hopefully not, but maybe. So often we spend more time consuming the words of men than the words of God. But there is actually a way that you can better understand the Scriptures, and do it in a way that's quite easy. This is why I love the St. Paul Center. With courses taught by Scott Hahn, John Bergsma, and other leading Catholic scholars, you'll encounter Christ in scripture and grow in confidence to share your faith with others. You know that I've had Dr. Scott Hahn on the show before, if you watch Pints regularly. He is so brilliant. So is Dr. John

Starting point is 00:30:09 Bergsma. They take these lofty concepts and they're able to bring it down to our level in a way that doesn't just enrich our intellect so that we can impress other people, but it can just benefit our lives. So, no Christ, share Christ, start your 30-day free trial today at St. Paul'scenter.com slash pints, and if you become an annual supporter, they will send you a free copy of the complete Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. So then what if somebody says, okay, fine, I can't be a father, but I can be a mother, and there are such things as nuns who are called mother, so therefore mothers who are nuns should be able to celebrate the Holy Mass and be priests. So let's talk about the Holy Mass.

Starting point is 00:30:50 John Paul II describes the Eucharist as the sacrament of the bridegroom and of the bride. It's the bridegroom who gives up his body for the bride. It is absolutely essential that there is a man on the cross and a woman at the foot of the cross. It cannot be the other way around. this is my body given for you. The congregation in this case is the bride. And you're like, wait a minute, there are men out there. How can they be the bride? Well, in our baptism, we all have, whether you're male or female, we are part of the priesthood of all believers and the bridehood of all believers. In the corporate personality of the church,

Starting point is 00:31:42 there's always both, within both. So you and I, even though we're men, by virtue of our baptism, we are part of the bridehood of all believers. And every woman, by virtue of our baptism, in this corporate vision of the church, is part of the priesthood of all believers. But as soon as you single out one member of the church and say you are going to be the sign of the bride,

Starting point is 00:32:10 it has to be a woman. Yep, yep, yep. And then you say, we're gonna single out one member of the corporate body to be the sacrament of the bridegroom. It has to be a man. Okay. For a woman to attempt to confer the Eucharist,

Starting point is 00:32:24 the relationship is now bride to bride, and there is no possibility of a holy communion, and there's no possibility of new life. Grace, the order of grace, the Eucharist is part of the order of grace. Grace perfects nature. Mm-hmm. And the natural reality reveals the supernatural reality.

Starting point is 00:32:46 So it would be like saying, why can't I baptize somebody with sand? Yes. What do you have against sand? Correct, correct, correct. The physical reality to communicate the spiritual mystery, or let's put it this way, the natural reality to communicate the supernatural reality must properly symbolize the supernatural reality. You cannot have a Eucharist with graham crackers and Coca-Cola. It has to be wheat bread and it has to be grape alcohol, grape wine.

Starting point is 00:33:17 You cannot have a valid Eucharist with a woman conferring the sacrament because you need the bridegroom to say to the bride, this is my body given for you. In a world where we think two women can get married, we also think a woman can be a priest. Because it comes from the very same failure to recognize the fundamental meaning of the sexual difference. For those who are just hearing about this for the first time, because we have many Protestant and Mormon and skeptical viewers, would you still recommend that book, which I learned and got a lot out of, the good news about sex and marriage?

Starting point is 00:33:53 Oh, yes, that's my Q&A book. Yeah. It has 150 plus questions. Great place to start. Absolutely a great place to start. Yeah. And it's sort of, it's nice for the uninitiated. because it's not overwhelming.

Starting point is 00:34:03 You can pick out the question you want. Yeah, and I throw out also, my wife and I have a show called the Ask Christopher West, hosted by Wendy West show. Yep. And we've answered over 400 of questions just like this. Awesome. All right, so we'll link to those books and that podcast,

Starting point is 00:34:20 and then finally you have a new book I want people to know about. Yes, the truth and the lie, what it means to be human in the age of AI. So the truth is all about embodiment. how our body reveals our humanity. The lie is that we'll be liberated from the body in order to be truly human. So that's what's battling it out in this whole AI question.

Starting point is 00:34:45 Is the body something essentially human or is the body something we want to be liberated from to be more human? That plays itself out in this AI question with remarkable tension, shall we say. I read most of it, not yet through the entire thing, but a lot of it, and it's really good. You can tell that you are completely poised to address this question, given how much you've reflected on the human person because of your study of Carol Voitia. We will link to that below and we'll also give them a promo code for 20% off, I think.

Starting point is 00:35:20 Yes, the promo code is Pints for 20% off that book. Thank you, Christopher. Thank you, Matt.

Pints With Aquinas - 5 Myths About Catholic Sexual Ethics DEBUNKED | Christopher West | Last Call Ep. 29

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