Pints With Aquinas - 67.5 Why Norm Geisler is wrong about Aquinas and the assumption of Mary

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 67.5. I'm Matt Fradd. Today, since it's the feast of the Assumption of Mary, I thought I would talk about that a bit. And also, something kind of special is going to happen too, so buckle up. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. The reason this is a 0.5 episode is it's not going to be a full-fledged episode. Instead, I'm going to respond to what Norman Geisler wrote on Aquinas not accepting the assumption of Mary. Just real briefly. He's completely wrong. And then I would like to share with you something really cool we've just done.

Starting point is 00:01:00 I'm really excited about it. You hear me talk all the time about those who support Pints with Aquinas on Patreon and that those who do support us get different gifts in return. Well, for those of you who give $5 a month, you get access to an ever-growing audio library of audio books. And we just paid a professional voice guy, I think that's their official title, voice guy, to read Pope Pius XII's Apostolic Constitution in which he defined Mary as having been assumed into heaven. So, if you're like me and you've got a lot of reading that you're doing that you would like to do, you would like to read more papal encyclicals, but goodness, you know, it's hard to find the time, please consider supporting Pines with Aquinas and you'll begin to get access to these encyclicals. And as I say, they're really professionally recorded. So,

Starting point is 00:01:54 at the end of this episode, I'll play five to ten minutes of it for you so you can get an idea of what it's like. And again, to listen to that entire audio book, you'd go to patreon.com slash PWA. But what about, oh, I've got to tell you something else that's really cool. On this day, the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, my co-writer, Robert Delfino, and I have submitted the final manuscript to our publisher on Aquinas' Five Proofs for the Existence of God. Over the last year and a half, we've been writing a book, a Socratic dialogue on the five ways of St. Thomas Aquinas. Because I think that many people, the reason they're afraid of Aquinas' five ways is they're more confusing. There's more explanation that's needed, and that's because he's relying on Aristotelian metaphysics and terminology.

Starting point is 00:02:50 And so, because of that, many of us, myself included, turn to simpler, I don't mean unsophisticated, but simpler arguments for the existence of God from terrific Protestant personalities, such as philosopher William Lane Craig or Alvin Plantinga. The whole point of this book is to finally equip you so you will feel comfortable to know what Aquinas is talking about in The Five Ways and how to employ those arguments yourself. And what's really cool is we've done it in the form of a Socratic dialogue between an atheist and a Catholic who meet at a coffee shop. And over the course of several meetings, they go through both the objections Aquinas sets himself for atheism, and then goes through one by

Starting point is 00:03:38 one each of these arguments. We're like super, super proud of it. It's taken forever. Well, not forever. It's taken a long time and I think it's going to be really beneficial. So, I just wanted to share that good news with you as well. All right, the assumption of the mother of God, what is it? Well, let's first take a look at what the catechism of the Catholic Church has to say. what the catechism of the Catholic Church has to say. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up, body and soul, into heavenly glory and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things,

Starting point is 00:04:23 so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of Lords and conquer, Mary, it wasn't defined whether or not she died or not. Most people or the tradition seems to be that she did die and then was assumed body and soul into heaven. That's why in the East, we call it the Dormition of Mary. Now, so that was defined in 1950 by Pope Pius XII, in 1950 by Pope Pius XII, as I've already said. But here's something that's kind of bothered me. Sometimes people think that, what, 1950? And they mistakenly think that a dogma is essentially coming up with a belief. But that's not true. The church infallibly defines things, not all from the get-go, right, at 33 AD, AD 33, I should say, but when a dispute arises and the magisterium, that is the teaching authority of the church, wants to make something clear, right, that this was part of the deposit of faith. right? That this was part of the deposit of faith. So, look, let's just read from Norm Geisel here. This is from Christianity Today. Norm Geisel, I've read some of his apologetic stuff and I find it quite interesting. He's got some really great stuff to read, but he does tend to lean towards

Starting point is 00:05:57 the, you know, not favorable to Catholic side, which is fine, right? I mean, at least he's consistent. He's not wanting a false ecumenism or something. Okay, but it really bothered me when he brought Aquinas into the issue. So, the whole point of this article is it's called Thomas Aquinas, he's our man. All right, so he's trying to say like we as evangelicals can learn from Aquinas too, which I obviously agree with. But to say or to insinuate that Aquinas really wasn't Catholic in the sense that he didn't accept these core beliefs of Catholics is just nonsense. All right, so here's a quote from him. He says, many of the Catholic beliefs that concern Protestants, most were not declared dogma

Starting point is 00:06:42 until long after Aquinas. For example, Aquinas defined the immaculate conception of Mary. Sorry, Aquinas denied the immaculate conception of Mary, and it was not declared dogma until 1854. Look, we've done whole episodes on this. It is true that Aquinas was wrong about the immaculate conception of Mary. But it's interesting when people say this, like he denied this. Yeah, but guess what? He did believe that she was sinless her entire life. He just wasn't sure how to reconcile that, you know, or how to explain when it occurred. All right. So, I think he perhaps played with the idea that she may have been sanctified in utero or something like that, but okay, let's move on. And then he says,

Starting point is 00:07:34 Aquinas never believed in the bodily assumption of Mary, which was defined in 1950. Look, and what's crazy is later on, he says, we just have to read Aquinas, right? Like he's like, just read the man yourself and then you'll see how he's our man. Let me read two direct excerpts from St. Thomas Aquinas to show that he absolutely did accept bodily assumption of Mary. Now, it's true that he never addressed the assumption of Mary directly as an article in the Summa Theologiae or elsewhere, but it doesn't mean he didn't accept it. For example, in the Summa Theologiae in the third part, question 27, article 1, he's talking about there whether the Blessed Virgin was sanctified

Starting point is 00:08:25 before her birth from the womb. Now, check this out. Not only does he share that he accepts and believes the assumption of Mary, but he even quotes Augustine, right? Augustine as believing it too. Here's a quote from Aquinas. But as Augustine in his tractate on the assumption of the virgin argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven and yet scripture does not relate this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, right there, we can see that he's mistaken. Now, of course, it's interesting too that he would quote Saint Augustine, right there, we can see that he's mistaken. Now, of course, it's interesting too that he would quote Saint Augustine, right? Augustine was born in the 4th century, died in around 420, 430, sometime around then. So, there you go. I mean, not only does Aquinas show that he believes in

Starting point is 00:09:19 the Assumption of Mary, but he's talking about its pedigree in the early church. I don't mean that. Sorry, ancient pedigree, I guess I'm trying to say. Here's another thing. This is directly, we've talked about this as well on a previous podcast. This is St. Thomas Aquinas' beautiful writings on the angelic salutation, on the Hail Mary. You can go back and find that in a previous podcast. We read through the whole thing. It's gorgeous. But if Norman Geisler would just do what he encouraged us to do and read Thomas Aquinas, he would know that Thomas Aquinas accepted the assumption of Mary. Here's another quote from Aquinas. The blessed virgin was free of this because she was assumed in the body into heaven, for we believe that after death, she was raised up and born to heaven. There you go.

Starting point is 00:10:15 Did you see Aquinas said that after death? That goes back to my point that the general consensus was that she died first. And then he quotes Psalm 131.8 that says, O Lord, into thy resting place thou and the ark of thy majesty, right? This idea that the ark of the covenant of the Old Testament was a type of the blessed Virgin Mary who contained God within her womb. So, I hope that settles it. But to this issue that, again, I brought it up in the beginning that, you know, this dogma wasn't defined until then. Yeah, but again, dogmas aren't defined until disputes arise in the church and the church wants to settle a question. For example, it wasn't until the Council of Nicaea that the Trinity was officially defined, okay? It wasn't until the Council of Trent,

Starting point is 00:11:07 and that was well after Aquinas, that the canon of Scripture was infallibly defined. That doesn't mean it was the first time it was discussed, obviously. If memory serves, the first enumeration we have of Holy Scripture comes from Pope Damasus I in the year 8382 at the Council of Rome, all right? That was further ratified by the councils of Hippo and Carthage, okay? But it wasn't actually defined infallibly until Trent. So, it's just, a dogma isn't when, you know, a belief is invented. Again, a dogma... By the way, what does dogma mean? Probably should have defined that a long time ago. Dogma originally just meant opinion, but it doesn't really have that connotation today. Here's a somewhat recent definition from the late Cardinal Avery Dulles. He says, in current Catholic usage, the term dogma means a divinely

Starting point is 00:12:07 revealed truth proclaimed as such by the infallible teaching authority of the church and hence binding on all the faithful without exception now and forever. And that's from his work, The Survival of Dogma. So, a dogma is part of the original deposit of faith, right? It's not something that the apostles didn't believe and then someone else began to believe. It's something that the apostles actually taught in seed form. Yeah, perhaps. For example, the Trinity. Clearly, the apostles and how they understood and explained the Trinity would be primitive compared to, say, St. Athanasius. But just because St. Athanasius has a more robust understanding of the Trinity, that doesn't mean that the apostles didn't teach it. Anyway, so have a beautiful feast of the

Starting point is 00:12:59 Assumption of Mary today. Have a beer, have a pint of beer if you're not having one already, and ask our Blessed Mother to lead you, and please, to lead me closer to her Son, Jesus Christ. Now, as I mentioned in the beginning of the show, because of your support on Patreon, we've been able to pay an official voiceover book reading dude, again, I'm pretty sure that's the official title, to read Pope Pius XII's Apostolic Constitution, in which he defines Mary as having been, not defined, but defined infallibly, as Mary being assumed into heaven. So, I'm going to play a bit of that now, and I really want to encourage you to support Pints with Aquinas so you can listen to the whole of this book for, you know, five bucks

Starting point is 00:13:45 a month and also realize that we're going to be uploading new audio books. I've got a couple in mind that you'll have access to by supporting the show as well. Again, if you want to support the show, go to pintswithaquinas.com, click the Patreon banner or click support and that's how you can do it. So, you know, if you don't want to just listen to like a teaser, maybe just go do that right now and you can listen to the whole thing. Otherwise, here's five to 10 minutes of that beautiful, beautiful letter. God bless and chat with you next week. Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII Munificatissimos Deus Defining the Dogma of the Assumption

Starting point is 00:14:30 An audio production by Pints with Aquinas Learn more at pintswithaquinas.com The Most Bountiful God, who is Almighty, the plan of whose providence rests upon wisdom and love, tempers in the secret purpose of his own mind the sorrows of peoples and of individual men by means of joys that he interposes in their lives from time to time, in such a way that, under different conditions and in different ways, all things may work together unto good for those who love him. Now, just like the present age, our pontificate is weighed down by ever so many cares, anxieties,

Starting point is 00:15:15 and troubles, by reason of very severe calamities that have taken place, and by reason of the fact that many have strayed away from truth and virtue. Nevertheless, we are greatly consoled to see that, while the Catholic faith is being professed publicly and vigorously, piety toward the Virgin Mother of God is flourishing and daily growing more fervent, and that almost everywhere on earth it is showing indications of a better and holier life.

Starting point is 00:15:47 Thus, while the Blessed Virgin is fulfilling in the most affectionate manner her maternal duties on behalf of those redeemed by the blood of Christ, the minds and the hearts of her children are being vigorously aroused to a more assiduous consideration of her prerogatives. more assiduous consideration of her prerogatives. Actually, God, who from all eternity regards Mary with a most favorable and unique affection, has, when the fullness of time came, put the plan of his providence into effect in such a way that all the privileges and prerogatives he had granted to her in his sovereign generosity were to shine forth in her in a kind of perfect harmony. And although the church has always recognized this supreme

Starting point is 00:16:32 generosity and the perfect harmony of graces, and has daily studied them more and more throughout the course of the centuries, still it is our own age that the privilege of the bodily assumption into heaven of Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, has certainly shown forth more clearly. That privilege has shown forth in new radiance since our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the living Mother of God's immaculate conception. These two privileges are most closely bound to one another. Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through baptism has been born again in a supernatural way

Starting point is 00:17:18 has conquered sin and death through the same Christ. Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul. will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her immaculate conception, and as a result, she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end

Starting point is 00:18:05 of time for the redemption of her body. Thus, when it was solemnly proclaimed that Mary, the virgin mother of God, was from the very beginning free from the taint of original sin, the minds of the faithful were filled with a stronger hope that the day might soon come when the dogma of the Virgin Mary's bodily assumption into heaven would also be defined by the Church's supreme teaching authority. Actually, it was seen that not only individual Catholics, but also those who could speak for nations or ecclesiastical provinces, and even a considerable number of the Fathers of the Vatican Council,

Starting point is 00:18:45 urgently petitioned the Apostolic See to this effect. During the course of time, such postulations and petitions did not decrease, but rather grew continually in number and in urgency. In this cause, there were pious crusades of prayer. Many outstanding theologians eagerly and zealously carried out investigations on this subject, either privately or in public ecclesiastical institutions and in other schools where the sacred disciplines are taught. Marian congresses, both national and international in scope, have been held in many parts of the Catholic world. These studies and investigations have brought out into even clearer light the fact that the dogma of the Virgin Mary's assumption into heaven is contained in the deposit of Christian faith

Starting point is 00:19:36 entrusted to the Church. They have resulted in many more petitions, begging and urging the apostolic see that this truth be solemnly defined. All right, that's all the time we have for you this week. I hope you enjoyed that little snippet of the beautiful apostolic constitution. As I said, you want to listen to the whole thing, go to pintswithaquinas.com and click support or the Patreon banner and become a Donator person. And that's how you listen to the rest of the thing. Thanks so much for tuning in week after week. If you haven't yet reviewed the show on iTunes, go ahead and do that.

Starting point is 00:20:13 And that would be the bomb. God bless you. Bye. Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive?

Pints With Aquinas - 67.5 Why Norm Geisler is wrong about Aquinas and the assumption of Mary

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