Pints With Aquinas - 73: Why I don't call myself Gay, With Daniel Mattson ... Also Fr. James Martin's new book

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 73. I'm Matt Fradd. Today we'll be continuing our discussion from last week on homosexuality. If you haven't yet listened to last week's episode, I encourage you to do that before listening to this one. Last week, we spoke about what the Catechism of the Catholic Church had to say. We spoke about what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say in the Summa Theologiae. Today, we're going to be talking specifically about terminology. We'll learn that Daniel finds the word gay, lesbian to be quite impoverished and reductionistic. We'll talk about that and then we'll talk about what certain leaders in the church, like Father James Martin, who recently wrote a book on building bridges to the LGBT community, why that might be less than helpful, despite the fact that it's probably coming from a really good place. Also, after listening to this interview, if you like what you've heard and you want to

Starting point is 00:01:10 hear Daniel's story, not just the apologetic philosophical stuff, but his story, you can become a patron of Pints with Aquinas by going to pintswithaquinas.com and clicking support, and that'll lead you to a Patreon page where you can give two bucks a month. That's it. And by giving two bucks a month, you get access to an ever growing audio library of exclusive content, interviews I've done with philosophers, theologians, and converts. Daniel's is one of those interviews that you'll get to listen to. All right, here's part two of the show. Hey, Daniel, good to have you back on the show with us. Last week, you began talking about people like me. That's something you said a bunch. And I'm trying to, I really want to get to this

Starting point is 00:01:51 issue of why you don't call yourself gay. And if that is true, what would you call yourself and why does terminology matter? Well, that's one of the basic messages of my book. With me growing up, I had to figure out, all right, what does this all mean? Okay, I find myself attracted to the same sex I can recall in the first grade, that first moment. But I didn't have a word for it. I grew up in the 70s and 80s. And we were not inundated with this division of the world between gay and straight. I just thought of myself as a boy, right?

Starting point is 00:02:42 But then in adolescence and into college, when these attractions to men became more intractable and more ever-present, you know, that's when I started hearing about the word gay. And I said, well, maybe this is who I am. But it didn't seem to fit me. At the time, the people who you knew were identifying as gay were really activists. They ran into St. Patrick's Cathedral during a mass and threw condoms, this group called Act Up. And I said, I have nothing in common. Yeah, really classy, right? And they were very, it was very a political action movement at that point. And I thought, I don't have anything to do with these people. And then, you know, by the time I got to college

Starting point is 00:03:21 and out of college, I had really kind of started to turn my back on the church because I didn't think it really had much to do with me. And I was angry at God. At this point, more and more people, celebrities were starting to come out, that sort of thing. And I thought, well, I guess maybe this is who I am. I guess I am a gay man. I thought, well, I guess maybe this is who I am. I guess I am a gay man. But it never seemed to fit my experience.

Starting point is 00:03:56 I quote in my book the African-American novelist James Baldwin, who – Yeah, I read that. Yeah, it's a very interesting quote because he always had relationships with men. quote, because he always had relationships with men. Share the basic, I know you probably don't have it there in front of you, but for our listeners, what was he saying? Yeah, well he said he was being interviewed towards the end of his life about quote unquote being gay, and he said, you know, I've never thought of myself as gay. The word gay has always rubbed me the wrong way. I've just never known what to make

Starting point is 00:04:25 of it. It hasn't made sense of my experience. And I think, you know, it's interesting to have a novelist, a person who works with words, right? That's his living. And he's saying, well, am I gay? And he said, no, this doesn't make sense of my experience to be suddenly I take on this name and I take on a role and he said that too he said everything about the gay community has always bewildered me and I've never known to make of it and he said I don't understand all the role playing

Starting point is 00:05:01 and I still don't and I have to say that has been my reaction too. I think Even before you became Catholic or embraced your Catholic faith? Yeah, you know, I've always kind of been, you know, I beat by my own, a man marches by by beating my own drum. I wanted to think through things. I just tend to think through things and I said, you know, okay, at one point I said to myself through things. I just tend to think through things. And I said, you know, okay. At one point, I said to myself, I guess I am gay.

Starting point is 00:05:31 Well, what does that mean? What does it even mean? I have no interest in going to gay bars. I went to Boys Town in Chicago, which is sort of like the LGBT area. And a friend kind of introduced me to it. I said, well, these are not my people. I feel uncomfortable with this. I'm just a Midwest guy who happens to like men, and I just want to have a relationship with a man.

Starting point is 00:05:58 I don't want to get involved with gay pride parades. They're embarrassing. Why don't you put some clothes on, please? So none of this really made sense in my experience. And so I tried it on for about a year or so, and then it just seemed so limiting. Later on, when I encountered the Catholic Church's thinking, there's this beautiful teaching of the Congregation for the Doctor of the Faith in 1986 on the letter on the pastoral care of the homosexual person. And it says this remarkable thing. It says

Starting point is 00:06:35 basically that a person has too much dignity to have a reductionist view of his sexual orientation based on his inclinations. You know, feelings are very fickle. Why would we base our identification on our feelings? And the church said that today the church provides a badly needed context when she refuses to consider the person as a homosexual or a heterosexual, but rather as an heir and child of God, beloved child of God. That reminds me to interject there. A good friend of mine in her 50s came to Christ in a very powerful way after a whole life of what might be called

Starting point is 00:07:20 radical feminism in which she totally supported the homosexual lifestyle and pornography and all sorts of things. And when she became Christian, a friend of hers said to her, well, what do you think of gay people? And she says, well, I don't think much of gay people. Like, I don't spend time thinking about people, you know, who have this inclination. But if you're asking, what do I think about such people? I suppose I would say that they're loved and cherished children of God just like the rest of us, you know? Very simple answer. Well, yeah, Mother Teresa, she was interviewed by a reporter. Well, Mother Teresa, what do you think about homosexuals? And she stopped the reporter. You mean children of God? Okay, what do you think about the homosexual children of God? No, you mean children of God? Okay, what do you think about the homosexual children of God?

Starting point is 00:08:06 No, you mean children of God. And finally, the reporter got it. And the rest of the interview, he referred to the LGBT population as children, beloved children of God, because that's how Mother Teresa sees them. So, tell us what's wrong with saying you're gay. Like someone says to you, um, I'm gay or what do you think of gay people? And you want to try to help them understand why that's not an appropriate title. What do you say? Well, for me, you know, there's, there's, first off, we'll talk about how I talk about myself. I identify as a man. I say, what? Imagine that, you that. An arbitrary social construct. Cool. Right. Joking, joking. Yes. Some people say, oh, well, you identify as a same-sex attracted man.

Starting point is 00:08:57 No, I identify as a man. I'm a man just like any other man with particular challenges. But what I would say is that, well, I live with same-sex attractions. And that's clunky, admittedly clunky. But I feel that – But again, again, to go back to what you said earlier, we want nuance over slogans. Right, right. It's so important to be able to – it's liberating as a human person to be able to see yourself correctly. So if I say I'm gay, it means that somehow I am a certain type of creature. I'm a certain sexual creature, and the definition of my sexuality is that I'm gay.

Starting point is 00:09:44 And so therefore, well, how is a gay man supposed to live in the world? When we look around, well, if you're in the church, somehow all you're doing is you're denying your true nature. The church is having you deny your true nature. Right. Like demanding a bird should not fly or a fish should not live in the water. Exactly. I mean, so if I'm viewing myself, you know, and this whole Lady Gaga argument, you're born that way. If I somehow believe that I'm born gay and that this is, and people are saying, oh, God made you gay. Well, I think doesn't Father James Martin come close to saying that? Yes, he does. That's another topic, but we should address it, I think doesn't Father James Martin come close to saying that? Yes, he does.

Starting point is 00:10:25 That's another topic, but we should address it, I think. Yes, sure. Yeah, so prominent priests and prelates in the church are buying the Lady Gaga argument that we are born gay. Well, here's the problem. If we're born gay and it's a gift, well, then it should be good for us to act upon it. And so then the church, well, the church is just an arbitrary moral dictator that has decided, no, no for you, but yes, for this person. So this division of gay and straight, the other problem with gay and straight is what does it do about our human sexuality?

Starting point is 00:11:06 straight, what does it do about our human sexuality? It limits the definition of our human sexuality to the erotic and to what's associated with the genitals, right? It's who am I romantically or sexually attracted to? That becomes my sexual identity. You're gay? Okay, you're sexually and romantically attracted to the same sex. You're straight? Okay. You're sexually and romantically attracted to the same sex. You're straight? Okay. Or maybe you're somewhere in between. But the Church's teaching on human sexuality is far richer than that. Imagine sitting there, I really like to use this example, would we ever say of Christ that he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became a straight man? I've never heard that put like that, so no, I guess not. Well, it's just absurd. It's just absurd. And then to say of Our Lady that she realized her

Starting point is 00:12:00 heterosexual orientation by giving birth to Jesus. You know, God help us if we were to think that way. So I'd like to use that example because it points out how limiting and impoverished these words are, because we forget what sex is for. What is sex for? Yes, it has these elements of physical enjoyment in the proper area, the procreation of children. But what is sexuality really ordered towards? It's ordered towards fatherhood or motherhood. It's far more than romantic feelings or sexual intimacy. And indeed, who are the two people who have lived out what it means to be

Starting point is 00:12:48 a sexual creature as a man or a sexual creature as a woman, who has lived that out more fully or more completely than our Lord and our Lord's mother? Christopher West. I'm just joking. I love Christopher West to death. That wasn't me making fun Christopher West. I'm just joking. I love Christopher West to death. That wasn't me making fun of him. I was just trying to be funny. Keep going. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:13:13 Fantastic. You got the prize. But, you know, you sit there and say, okay, they never engaged in what we have made be the most important part of human sexuality. We've turned things upside down that what you do in the bedroom is the pinnacle of human sexuality. And that's simply not the case. That's a long way of saying that for me, gay and straight and now we have bisexual and pansexual and all these crazy determinations, they are such limiting and impoverished words. That's the key, I think, we as Catholics want to be able to communicate that these aren't words that liberate the human person, but as you say, they're impoverished, they're reductionistic. That's right. Just goes to show what happens when we unhinge ourselves from objective ontology, and we just begin drifting, right? And that seems like what we're doing today, just sort of drifting through a super relativistic, yeah, sorry. And our children are the ones who are

Starting point is 00:14:23 drifting at sea, getting bumped up and down, it's getting so confused about it so you know this is why i think the church one of our our missions in the world is to say look the only things that are true are male and female those are only true sexual identities and we have feelings and inclinations that need to be governed by our reason do you have a problem with the word homosexual person? Like if someone says, like, would you ever say I'm a homosexual? No, I don't say that either. I mean, you know, in the church... Do you have less beef with that than the I'm gay?

Starting point is 00:14:57 Because it kind of sounds like the same thing. You know, yeah, to say I'm a homosexual person, you know, the church uses that phrase in some of its documents. It never uses the words gay or straight. But I really think that as we move forward, I think the church is going to start moving away from that. Yeah, I like that. I love what you said too about, I mean, if we define ourselves by our sexual or romantic inclinations, our life's going to become extremely confused extremely quickly. I've been married for 11 years this coming Saturday, and there have been- Congratulations.

Starting point is 00:15:37 Thank you very much. There have been multiple times where I've found myself sexually attracted to a woman who I'm sitting by on the airplane, let's say, or somebody I encounter somewhere and have a conversation with. To begin to define myself, and this Jason Everett's put it this way, not that I've ever committed adultery, thank God, but suppose I did, I wouldn't say, well, I'm an adulterous sexual, and you need to accept that this is my true identity, and I need to embrace that, you know, gosh, your life would become confusing very quickly. And I suppose this is the trap, though. As soon as you begin saying, okay, she's gay, he's gay, you're homosexual, as soon as you do that, you're essentially, as you put it, classifying them as a sort of different

Starting point is 00:16:25 species, different kind of person. But the person who consumes pornography, if we all bought the line, okay, this is a pornosexual, didn't you realize that pornosexuals exist? Oh, wow, you're a pornosexual. Well, now if that's who you are, then I know I'm reiterating just what you said earlier. Oh, absolutely. But it's exactly right. So, we've almost lost the debate is the point I'm getting to. Right. As soon as we concede that you could be gay or whatever. Well, exactly. And really, we lost the debate when we separated sex from children. You know, it really goes back to contraception.

Starting point is 00:17:07 goes back to contraception. You know, I can't remember who it was, but someone a lot wiser and smarter than me, that if I knew the name, everybody would be impressed. But he said, this moral philosopher apparently said, around the time of Humanae Vitae, that contraception was the homosexualization of sex. You know, basically, there's no purpose to it anymore. There's no end for it. What's the end? And the only end is pleasure. And if we say that that's what's great about it, well, then you could have the pornosexual or Miley Cyrus, who says, I'm a pansexual. And well, let's embrace who you choose to be, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, as we begin to wrap up here,

Starting point is 00:17:51 let's maybe just address the Catechism of the Catholic Church and some things that I want to get your opinion on what Father James Martin has said in his recent book. In particular, maybe this is how we can bridge the two together. I like that. Thank you. Paragraph 23 the Catechism of the Catechism, thank you, paragraph 2357 of the Catechism, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. And then you have a very popular priest, such as Jesuit Father James Martin. He has said that it's wrong, like the catechism's language is insensitive.

Starting point is 00:18:29 And not only has he said that, I've also heard him say that those who say the Bible talks against homosexuality, you know, don't realize that, you know, Leviticus also, and then he confuses the Mosaic law with the moral law. I'm like, this is like step one. How could you be confusing these? And then he says, and Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. And then he says, and I've heard all of these directly from his mouth, when St. Paul does speak about homosexuality, we have to realize he's a man of his time. So it's like he wants it both ways. So if St. Paul talks about homosexuality, he's a man of his time. But Jesus never spoke about it.

Starting point is 00:19:07 And if he did, would you accept it or would you just say he's also a man of his time? So that was a bit of a rant. But tell me what you think of Father James Martin's book. Maybe what, if any, merit it has and why it's unhelpful and people should go and buy your book immediately. Well, I think you about summed it up for me. Well, Father Martin, I am convinced that his book does come from a good place. You know, he does, you know, his big mantra are three words in the catechism's treatment that says people with the homosexual inclination

Starting point is 00:19:45 should be treated with sensitivity, respect, and compassion. Well, that's all well and good, but we have to have true compassion and true respect. And really what he's engaging in is something that the 1986 letter on the pastoral care of the homosexual person warned against. pastoral care of the homosexual person warned against. That document talked about how people were beginning to think that homosexuality was in some way good or at least neutral, and that it had gifts that come from it. This is something that Father Martin is talking about, the gifts

Starting point is 00:20:20 of people who are gay, like music ministers who just give their gifts to people. And the document also talked about it warned against studied ambiguity. And really, what you see with Father Martin is really a persistent ambiguity. He never comes out and talks about the church's teaching as good news. He just never even discusses it. Pete My understanding is he doesn't even put it negatively and say, okay, yes, sodomy is a sin, and then goes on to make his point. It's almost

Starting point is 00:20:52 like if he would just come out and affirm Catholic teaching, that would almost be like, okay, now I can hear the rest of the stuff you're trying to say, but why do you seem so reluctant to affirm, yeah, the good news of the church's teaching on chastity? Right. And he's even said things. He says, well, the word objectively disordered to describe the inclination and intrinsically disordered to describe the behavior. Those are needlessly harmful. Well, I'm sorry, as a man who has been on the other side, Father Martin, I need those like a protective fence. I need those words.

Starting point is 00:21:29 That protects me from ever crossing that line again. And he says, well, we could change the words to differently ordered. Well, that changes the whole teaching. differently ordered. Well, that changes the whole teaching. Because look, in my office, I don't pile things. I don't file things. I'm a piler, right? But I can still find things. You know, there's no moral issue between those two. If you're going to say differently ordered, it's basically saying, well, homosexuality is good. It's just a different form of human sexuality. So it's really a slippery slope towards approval of same-sex behavior. He wants to have this bridge of communication from the church hierarchy to the LGBT community.

Starting point is 00:22:24 Well, there is a bridge, and it's confession, and it's the cross. And it's always been there. And the job of the merciful priest, St. John Paul II said that the priest is a merciful bridge builder between the people and God. And he doesn't talk about that at all in his book. His book, I think, is very dangerous because it's sentimentality and it's really going to lead souls astray, which is why people should buy my book. Pete Now, my understanding, and apparently,

Starting point is 00:23:01 this almost happened by accident, your book and his book came out on the exact same day, correct? Yes. That's awesome. Hey, all right, well, look, as we wrap up here today, you know, please speak to those listening who may experience same-sex attraction or love those who do. You know, what can they do now if they want to follow the Church's teaching? Step one is going to be buy your book, which I want you to talk about, and then continue from there. Well, you know, I basically wrote my book to myself when I was about 20. I wrote the book that I wish I could have read, because I loved Jesus. I loved God. I wanted to follow Him as best I could, but I was confronted with these desires that pulled very strongly against me.

Starting point is 00:23:46 And for a time, I got angry and I turned my back on him. I did not believe that God was a loving father or that he cared for me. I just thought he was a rule maker. Well, I made the mistake that we made in the Garden of Eden. You know, God has these commandments there to love us, but to live it out is hard, and we need community, we need support. And I talk about in the book that you cannot go this alone. You have to share this with a priest, a loved, you know, your family, ideally, but not with everyone. You shouldn't come out and then get pigeonholed into this type of person. And I'll also recommend the Courage Apostolate. This is a ministry that has done great service to me. You were there at the conference last week, Matt, and you can go to

Starting point is 00:24:40 couragerc.org, and there are Courage chapters that are springing up all over the country. And if nothing else, reach out to the Courage chaplain and talk to him and just say, I just want help. I need help. And Courage chaplains are well experienced in all of these issues of dealing with how to live a fulfilling life as a single person. And for family members, so often family members, especially if somebody has come out and they've embraced this gay identity and they've left the church behind, they want to immediately find out a way, how do I fix my child, right? That's the first and primary goal of them. And what I urge them is say, no, don't worry about that so much right now. Love your child unconditionally. Now, loving unconditionally doesn't mean approval,

Starting point is 00:25:41 but instead of, so often, really orthodox, faithful Catholic parents will kind of say, well, this is the wrong thing. You know this is the wrong thing you're doing. Well, they know that. They know your stand. Parents and loved ones need to just focus on just loving and being there and to listen. and being there and to listen. Rather than preaching, listen. Say, son, I didn't know, but I can only imagine how painful this has been. Can you tell me what this has been like? I'm not going to talk to you about the church's teaching at all. I just want to know deeper what this has been like for you. To go into that, to go to listen and listen and not say anything.

Starting point is 00:26:26 go into that, to go to listen and listen and not say anything. Just say, just give them a hug. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. There's going to be time that the Holy Spirit will provide for talking about the church's teaching. But right now, you've got to view that son or daughter who just came out as a toddler, who scraped his knee and is hurting. And just listen and love them and then journey forward along with them. Then you can learn how best to witness to the truth by the resources at the Courage Apostolate. There's a group from parents and family and friends and courage, which you can find there. And there's local groups that are building up there. The most important thing that parents have to do is to always put their son or daughter

Starting point is 00:27:12 on the altar at Mass and say, God, I give you my son or daughter. I trust you to bring him back to you. You know, it's really, God doesn't have any spiritual grandchildren, is something that one of my friends in the Courage Apostolate says. And parents just often do more damage in their attempts to get their child back into the fold than if they just loved them and said, I love them. Gave them some space, yeah. Gave them some space. Gave them some space, right.

Starting point is 00:27:48 That's really powerful. Thanks so much. I'm sure people have said this to you in the past, and I don't know how you respond to it, but I'm going to say it. Thank you for having the courage to do this. Thank you for having the courage to write this book. Thank you for putting your face and name on it. I'm sure that makes you the target for a lot of vitriol, as can be seen by your Amazon reviewers.

Starting point is 00:28:11 So apart from buying Daniel's book, everyone must go review it on Amazon to balance out those people who clearly never read the book in the first place and just wanted to give him a poor review, I think. But thank you so much, Daniel. Oh, thank you. It's a gift. Oh, man, I hope you enjoyed those two interviews as much as I did and that you learned a lot from them. Like I did be sure to get Daniel Mattson's book. Would you, I got it. I I'm reading it right

Starting point is 00:28:35 now, as I said in the interview, and it's really well-written and terrific. As you can see, um, Daniel's a intelligent, insightful man, and you'll learn a lot from him. So be sure to get that book. Just go to Amazon and type in Daniel Mattson or Why I Don't Call Myself Gay, and you can get that book there. Also, as I said in the beginning, if you want to listen to his different interview I did with him in which he just shares his story with us, go to pintswithaquinas.com, click Patreon or click support, and from there, you give two bucks a month to support the show and you can have a whole access to a whole bunch of interviews, including the one I did with him recently.

Starting point is 00:29:10 Thanks so much. Chat with you next week. Lest we be frauds or worse accused Hollow me to deepen in you Whose wolves am I feeding myself to? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you

Starting point is 00:30:03 And I would give my whole life to carry you to carry you and i would give my whole life to carry you to carry you to carry you to carry you To carry you To carry you To carry you There were birds in your tears falling from the sky Into a dry riverbed that began to flow down

Pints With Aquinas - 73: Why I don't call myself Gay, With Daniel Mattson ... Also Fr. James Martin's new book

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