Pints With Aquinas - 90: Why did Jesus descend into Hell?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with St. Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask Thomas Aquinas, why did Jesus descend into hell? In the Q&A portion of today's episode, we discuss a bunch of stuff. I get questions on Stoicism, what Stoicism is, what can we learn from it, how is it different to Christianity. We get another question on how an accidentally ordered sequence of causes can give rise to an essentially ordered series, if that's even possible. What Aquinas had to say on scrupulosity, and then how to talk about the Catholic Church to people who only want to talk about the awful things individual Catholics have

Starting point is 00:00:44 done. So it's going to be a real fun episode. Here we go. Enjoy the show. Thanks very much for joining us here again at Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a bar stool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. One of the many awesome things that Thomas Aquinas did was write a commentary on the Apostles' Creed. Before we look at that particular creed and that particular line that we want to have a look at in today's episode, maybe a little bit of background is in order. Maybe you've heard of the Nicene Creed or the Apostles' Creed. What are they? Where do they come from? What's the difference? Well, the Nicene Creed was written in the year 325 in the city of Nicaea. This is the longer creed that's said at every Catholic mass on Sundays. The Apostles' Creed is a shorter

Starting point is 00:01:47 version. The earliest historical evidence for that creed is from a letter written by the Council of Milan in 390. And that's the one that Aquinas writes a commentary on. In particular, what we want to look at today is the line, he descended to the dead, right? And his seat, and then he rose on the third day. Why don't we just read the Apostles' Creed together so we're all on the same page. This is how Aquinas translates it, at least this is the English from the Latin. I believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.

Starting point is 00:02:26 He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. Now, this next line is what we're going to be focusing on in this podcast. He descended to the underworld. The third day, He rose again. Now, underworld is sometimes translated hell, and it's sometimes translated dead, and you'll see why that's the case in this episode. He descended to the underworld. The third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated

Starting point is 00:02:55 at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. And as I say, we're going to be looking at that one line, he descended to the underworld, or to the dead, or to hell. And Aquinas gives us four reasons that Jesus Christ did that. But before we look at those four reasons, it's important that we clear up perhaps a misconception. Why is it that we use these different words? Underworld, dead, hell, sometimes Abraham's bosom even. Well, I think the

Starting point is 00:03:33 reason we use these different words is because we're referring to different things in a sense. So when we talk about Christ descending into hell, well, we're not talking about the hell of the damned. That is to say, there were both just and unjust souls in the realm of the dead, and their experience of this realm was very different. When Christ descended there into hell, right, into the place of the dead, into the underworld. He descended as a savior to those righteous souls and led them out of the place of the dead. But he did not, when we say Christ destroyed hell, it's important we don't think that Christ, or we say Christ emptied hell. You hear this in some songs. Yeah, he emptied the just,

Starting point is 00:04:26 but he didn't empty hell of the unjust. Okay. So, scripture often uses the term hell, sheol in Hebrews, Hades in Greek, okay, to refer not just to the hell of the damned, but to the abode of the dead, which consisted both, as I say, of the righteous and unrighteous. So, let's read a little bit from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. By the way, if you don't own a copy of the Catechism, I really encourage you to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is an absolute goldmine. I know, you know, maybe you made a New Year's resolution. It's only been a few weeks in. Maybe you've already broken it. But if you were looking for something to do that would really increase your faith and knowledge of the Catholic Church and Christianity, getting the Catechism of the

Starting point is 00:05:20 Catholic Church and just reading one or two chapters or paragraphs a day would really help you. And that goes too for you evangelical Protestant listeners of Pints with Aquinas. If you're an evangelical listening to me, you've probably had the experience where a Catholic came up to you and they started evangelizing you, right? And maybe you got the sense that they didn't even know what you believed. And maybe they didn't even pause to find out. I'm sorry if that happened. I've been guilty of that myself. You know how frustrating that is, right? Where people misunderstand your faith or what you believe, and they attack something that you don't even hold. Well, that's frustrating for both Protestants and Catholics. So, if you're a Protestant out there and you think the Catholic

Starting point is 00:06:01 Church is wrong on many things, that's fine. You're welcome to think that, but getting a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church will help you to realize exactly what it is the Catholic Church teaches. Because I could just say as a Catholic, I've often had the experience where a Protestant accused me of holding a belief that the Catholic Church doesn't hold. So, you could get this book, Copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and it would help you understand exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. You can still disagree with it, but at least you'll disagree with it because of what the Catholic Church says about itself and not because of what some maybe Protestant apologetic work has to say about the Catholic Church. So, let's talk a little bit about this here. Here's what it says in paragraph 232 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When Christ descended into hell, right, or into the abode of the dead, right, he descended there because he was a man, okay, man and God, of course, but like all men, he experienced death. So when we say that he rose from the dead, that presupposes that he died. And if he died, he went into the realm of the dead. But unlike all those prior to him who went to the place of the dead, he descended, says the Catechism of the Catholic Church, he descended there as a savior, proclaiming the good news to the spirits imprisoned there. Okay. Jesus, the Catechism says,

Starting point is 00:07:28 did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him, to free the just who had gone before him. The gospel was preached even to the dead, we read in 1 Peter 4, verse 6. The descent into hell, says the catechism, brings the gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment, to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, right? It's an important part of his ministry, to proclaim the gospel to the dead. The Catechism continues, a phase which is condensed in time, but vast in its real significance. The spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

Starting point is 00:08:26 Okay, I want to read a little quotation here. It's a homily from Holy Saturday. It's an ancient homily for Holy Saturday. By the way, if you can hear someone murmuring in the corner, that's my dog Maximus. What are you doing, Maximus? Okay, he doesn't talk apparently. Here's what the, Maximus. What are you doing, Maximus? Okay. He doesn't talk apparently. Here's what the homily says. And this is so powerful. This is powerful. Today, a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness, a great silence

Starting point is 00:08:57 because the king is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep, greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death. He has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve captive with him. He who is both their God and the son of Eve. How powerful is that? I am your God who for your sake have become your son. I order you, O sleeper to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead. Oh my gosh. Brothers and sisters, that is so powerful. There are some beautiful

Starting point is 00:09:54 icons and paintings of Christ's descent into the dead, and I want to share some of them with you. If you go to paintswithaquinas.com under this particular podcast, I'll throw up a few of these pictures so you can see them for yourself. Here's one I'm looking at right now. It is so powerful. You have here Jesus Christ who has Adam by the hand, right? Eve is before him. And then you have the Old Testament patriarchs and matriarchs behind them. And he's leading them out of a gigantic black beast with fangs and red teeth, right? This symbolizes death. And there's one, two, three, four, five demons

Starting point is 00:10:37 trying desperately to shut the mouth and keep shut the mouth of death. There's even one demon, very cute of him, throwing a chain around the mouth of death and desperately trying to pull that jaw shut, but in vain, because Christ is victorious and he is calmly leading Adam and Eve and the others out of death. You've got to go and check this out. It is such a powerful image. But let's read that line again. I love this, right? Imagine this. Imagine Christ descending to the abode of the dead and he goes to Eve, right? And he says this, I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. I order you, O sleeper, to awake. That is better than anything in Lord of the Rings, maybe. Right?

Starting point is 00:11:40 I mean, that is so powerful. Many of you know that my family and I go to a Byzantine Catholic church, and this idea of Christ conquered death by death is very prominent, especially around Easter time. I was visiting Dallas to see my in-laws a couple of years back, and we went to a Byzantine church for divine liturgy. And they had this thing that they did there, where whenever you said Christ has trampled death by death, everyone in the congregation trampled their feet twice. So it's like, I have trampled death by death.

Starting point is 00:12:19 And it was so powerful and glorious. Okay. All right. It was so powerful and glorious. Okay. All right. So let's read from Thomas Aquinas himself. What are these four reasons? I'm getting really excited here. Christ descended into hell.

Starting point is 00:12:38 Okay. First, says Aquinas, he wished to take upon himself the entire punishment for our sin and thus atone for its entire guilt. The punishment for the sin of man was not alone death of the body, but it was also a punishment of the soul since the soul had its share in sin and it was punished by being deprived of the beatific vision. And as yet, no atonement had been offered whereby this punishment would be taken away. Therefore, before the coming of Christ, all men, even the holy fathers after their death, descended into the underworld accordingly in order to take upon himself most perfectly the punishment due to sinners. Christ not only suffered death, but also his soul descended to the underworld. Listen to this. This is powerful. He, that is Christ, however, descended for a different cause than did the fathers, for they did so out of necessity

Starting point is 00:13:38 and were of necessity taken there and detained. But Christ descended there of his own power and free will. I am counted among them that go down to the pit. I am become as a man without help, free among the dead. That's a quotation from Psalm 87, 5 from the Vulgate. The others were there as captives, but Christ was freely there, right? And that's true too of Christ's death. It's like Christ, second most blessed Trinity, chose to die, right? He participated in what man had to participate in because of the punishment for his sin fully. Here's the second reason. The second reason Christ ascended to the dead is that he might perfectly deliver all his friends. Christ had his friends both in the world and in the underworld.

Starting point is 00:14:33 The former were his friends in that they possessed charity, and the latter were there who departed this life with charity and faith in the future Redeemer, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and other just and good men. Therefore, since Christ had dwelt among his friends in this world and had delivered them by his death, so he wished to visit his friends who were detained in the underworld and deliver them also. It says in Sirach 24, 45, I will penetrate all the lower parts of the earth and will behold all that hope in the Lord. Okay, the third reason that Jesus Christ ascended into hell is that he would completely triumph over the devil. I love this bit. This one's a really cool

Starting point is 00:15:18 point. He says, now a person is perfectly vanquished when he's not only overcome in conflict, but also when the assault is carried into his very home and the seat of his kingdom is taken away from him. Thus, Christ triumphed over the devil and on the cross, he completely vanquished him. Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world, that is the devil, be cast out. That's from John 12, 31. To make this triumph complete, Christ wished to deprive the devil of the seat of his kingdom and to imprison him in his own house, which is the underworld. Christ therefore descended there and despoiled the devil of everything

Starting point is 00:16:02 and bound him, taking away his prey. Taking away his prey. Likewise, Christ, who had received the power and possession of heaven and earth, desired too the possession of the underworld. As says the apostles, that in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow of those that are in heaven, on earth, and on the earth. And we also read in Mark's gospel in chapter 16, verse 17, my name they shall cast out devils. In my name they shall cast out devils. A practice that you might consider taking up is this.

Starting point is 00:16:38 We read in Philippians chapter 2 that at the name of Christ, every knee shall bow. Now, if you were to do that every time you heard the name of Jesus, that might be a cool thing, but it might be like super, I don't know, inconvenient. So, one way to practice reverence of our blessed Lord's name is to bow the head. Whenever you hear the name of Jesus, whether it's spoken in prayer or in blasphemy, just to do a little bow of the head. This point was driven home to me when I used to work at Catholic Answers, and my direct supervisor, Tim Staples, who many of you know, fantastic man, I noticed he would do that. Whenever we were on the radio show together,

Starting point is 00:17:17 and if the name of Jesus was spoken, he would always bow his head. Now, I had heard that that was something that you might consider doing, but I had never actually encountered a person who did it. And so, just a suggestion that at the name of Jesus, we read in Philippians, right? Every knee should bow. How about from this point on, you try to make it a habit and I try to make it a habit that at the name of Jesus, right? The vanquisher of hell, you and I bow our heads not in a dramatic way you know that makes everyone feel awkward around us but just in a humble way to acknowledge the name of our savior here's the fourth reason that jesus christ descended into hell the fourth and final reason

Starting point is 00:17:59 says um says aquinas is that christ might free the just who are in the underworld. For as Christ wished to suffer death to deliver the living from death, so also he would descend into the underworld to deliver those who were there. That's why we read in Zechariah, you also by the blood of your testament sent forth your prisoners out of the pit where there is no water. And again, we read in Hosea, O death, I will be your death. O hell, I will be your bite. I love that. Now, we mentioned this in the beginning of the episode that when Christ despoiled, right, hell, death, and when he emptied hell, that doesn't mean that he emptied the place of the damned. And Aquinas says that here, although Christ wholly overcame death, yet not so completely did he destroy the underworld, but as it were, he bit it. I love it. He bit it. He took a bite out of it.

Starting point is 00:19:02 He did not free all from the underworld, but those only who were without mortal sin. He likewise liberated those without original sin, from which they as individuals were freed by circumcision, or before the institution of circumcision, they who had been saved through their parents' faith, which refers to those who died before having the use of reason, or by the sacrifices and by their faith in the future coming of Christ, which refers to adults. The reason they were there in the underworld is original sin, which they had contracted from Adam, and from which, as members of the human race, they could not be delivered except by Christ. of the human race, they could not be delivered except by Christ. So those were the four reasons,

Starting point is 00:19:53 Aquinas gives, for why Christ descended into hell. He wanted to take upon himself the entire punishment for sin. That was the first reason. The second reason is that he might perfectly deliver all of his friends. The third reason is that he would completely triumph over the devil. And the fourth reason is so that he could deliver the just from the place of the dead. Now, Aquinas then says there are four things we should consider. Now that we know why Christ went to hell, what are the four things we can learn from this? I'm going to go over these four very quickly. I'm not going to read the entirety of Thomas's text. Rather, I will put that in the show notes and you can read it for yourself. But basically, the first thing we should consider is we should have a firm hope in God. We have a God that's not just willing to save those who were present in his day and age,

Starting point is 00:20:41 right, in the land of the living and those after him, he even went to the place of the dead to liberate the just souls. So no matter how bad your life is right now, or whether you are in a place of despair or hopelessness, or whether you will be, to recognize that Christ can reach you there and we should hope in him. And the second reason he gives us is that we ought to conceive a fear of God and avoid all presumption, okay? So, you know, it might be tempting to think, like, God is bigger than my sin. Well, that's true, but you need to confess it. And don't presume that just because God will save any sinner if he repents, that he will save you if you don't, all right? You and I still can go to hell. All right. And so don't presume that God will save you. Don't be like, well, I can just sin. I'll ask forgiveness of

Starting point is 00:21:31 my death, but or something like that. Don't presume. The third thing, now this is going to, I don't know, maybe rub you the wrong way, but he says we ought, this is the third thing we should learn from this. We ought to arouse in ourselves a mental anxiety. Yep, that's what he said. He said, this ought to make you anxious. Why? Why? Isn't anxiety what I'm trying to get away from? Well, yes, but you ought to realize that hell is real and it's a real possibility for you, right? And you should consider that, right? That no matter how great you think you are, I mean, everybody thinks they're great. I mean, let's just be honest. Everyone out there doing horrendous things or not so horrendous things, if you were to ask them why they're doing these

Starting point is 00:22:14 horrendous things would say that they are justified in doing these horrendous things. Like we are so good at justifying our sin. Stop it. Stop it. Repent of your sin and turn to Christ. The recognition that hell is real and eternal and that you and I might very well end up there ought to create within us a mental anxiety. Not so that we can remain in that anxiety, but so we can remind ourselves that Christ is our Savior and to turn to him and beg him the grace that we can live good lives. The fourth thing we should take away is just as Christ showed tremendous love in helping those who couldn't help themselves, so we should show love to those who cannot help themselves in purgatory. Now, if you're listening to me and you're like, what is this mortal sin talk? What

Starting point is 00:23:03 is purgatory? What do you mean people can go to hell? Well, I've done episodes on each of these. I've done a whole episode on mortal sin. I've done a whole episode on hell. I've done a whole episode on purgatory. I'm not going to get into all that right now, but suffice it to say, it's the Catholic Church's position that those who are in a state of purification before the beatific vision cannot help themselves and they rely on our prayers. So, we should, Aquinas says, pray for our loved ones, essentially, who have gone before us. So those are the four things we should take away. Again, I will throw up Aquinas' words, the four reasons that I read earlier, and then these four takeaways that I didn't go through word for word, so you can see them for yourselves. I'll also throw up some icons and beautiful paintings

Starting point is 00:23:44 in that page at pintofaquinas.com for you to take a look at. I hope this was a very helpful episode. Now, as I said in the beginning, it's time for some Q&A. I want to just say a big thanks to everybody who supports Pints with Aquinas on Patreon. If you have not yet started supporting Pints with Aquinas and you listen to this show and you get a lot out of it and you want to give back, I would be so appreciative. Go to pintswithaquinas.com, click support, and there you'll see, it'll take you to Patreon. You can give 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month. I give you different gifts in return, like a free signed copy of my book, a free Pints with Aquinas beer stein. You get access to an exclusive audio library

Starting point is 00:24:23 of interviews. You get monthly videos. You get monthly live streams, all sorts of stuff that I'll give you in return for being awesome and supporting Pints with Aquinas. Also, if you want to be able to ask me a question, the way to do that is by becoming a supporter on Patreon. So let's take a look at some of the questions that we've got in. The first comes from Patrick Landry. Hey, Patrick. You say, hey, Matt, would you please discuss or possibly do a podcast on Stoics and why we should be careful when reading them? One of my book clubs recently read Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday. I went on and read The Obstacle is the Way as well. I don't really understand Stoicism or why it is opposed to Christianity. I would love to hear and

Starting point is 00:25:02 learn more. Thanks. Oh, okay. Well, thanks very much. I haven't read the two books that you've referred to, but I did my master's degree in the history of philosophy, so obviously have some familiarity with Stoicism. It was founded by a bloke called Zeno of Citium about 300 years before or 400 years before Christ. They were actually contemporaries and rivals of a group called the Epicureans. I've talked about them before, I think, on this show. Epicurus held the belief that happiness is the goal of life and pleasure is what it's going to take to secure happiness. So they were kind of like moral hedonists, you know, the right thing to do is the thing that's pleasurable. But the reason I bring up

Starting point is 00:25:45 the Epicureans is that they were also rivals. So like the Epicureans, Stoics were materialists. Everything's material. There is no soul. But the Stoics believed not just in a random combination of atoms like others did. They believed that there was this sort of divine force behind everything, kind of like the force in Star Wars. So when we talk about like this divine force, we're still not yet talking about something immaterial, okay? Because they were, you'll remember, materialists. And so this divine rational force guides and governs everything according to its plan. And this led to a sort of endorsement of ethical resignation, you might call it. Okay. So the basic idea for the Stoics is that, look, much of nature is outside of our control and it's inevitable anyway. So stop trying

Starting point is 00:26:42 to control everything around you and And instead, just try and control your emotions as well. Here's a famous Stoic quote. Here it is. I'm just going to... What's his name? Epictetus. Okay, here it is. Epictetus, he said, and he lived about, Epictetus, he said, and he lived about, he was born 50 and lived to 138 AD. So this is after the time of Christ. He said this, ask not that events should happen as you will, but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you shall have peace. Now that's a bit of a tongue twister. So let me say that again. Ask not that events should happen as you will, but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will find peace. So, this bloke, Epictetus, was actually a Roman, and even though Stoicism began with the Greeks, Romans kind of developed

Starting point is 00:27:34 it. One classic work by the Romans, well, there's a number of famous Roman Stoics, right, like Cicero and Seneca, but one thing I'm thinking in particular is Marcus Aurelius, he wrote a book called The Meditations. That might be something that you're interested in reading. So, you know, you ask, what's the problem? How does it conflict with Christianity? Well, I mean, as I just said there, and maybe you'd listen to that and you thought, well, there's a lot of that that's rather admirable. You know, we should be more interested in controlling ourselves, what we can control, as opposed to trying to control everyone else and trying to control

Starting point is 00:28:09 nature and trying to control things that are outside of our control. And to that degree, I think Stoicism is great. But there is this sense in Stoicism that we should sort of shut down our desires, right? So, just accept things as they happen. Whereas I think for the Christian, right? So, just accept things as they happen. Whereas I think for the Christian, right, there is this personal God who is the fulfillment of all our desire. And therefore, Christianity isn't like Stoicism because it's not about depressing our desires. It's actually about allowing them to bud forth and direct themselves, ourselves, towards this God who longs to satisfy us. I've read this quote a bunch on the podcast before, so forgive me if you're getting sick of it, but it's from C.S. Lewis. In one of his homilies, or one of his teachings, he said,

Starting point is 00:28:56 you know, when we consider the unblushing promises of reward from Christ in the Gospels, it would seem that our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. He says we're half-hearted creatures that are fooling about with drink, sex, and ambition, while infinite joy is being offered to us. So, I guess, whereas Stoicism might say, shut up your desires so you won't be disappointed, Christianity is about redirecting our desires to God. So, I hope that's the beginning of a help to that question. Thanks so much, Patrick. desires to God. So I hope that's the beginning of a help to that question. Thanks so much, Patrick. Let's see another question here. John McLeod Moyer, thanks for your support, John. You said, is it possible for an accidentally ordered sequence of causes to give rise to an essentially ordered sequence of causes? Yes, yes it is. By the way, for those of you unfamiliar,

Starting point is 00:29:42 an essentially ordered series of causes is one in which all the causation is happening at the same time. So here's an example. I grab I, who am, you know, in one sense, okay, in one sense, part of an accidentally ordered series of causes, you know, my dad gave birth to me. If my dad dies, I continue to live. If I die and my son continues to live, hopefully, I might pick up an egg beater and I might grab that crank and I might start rotating it, okay? And there's different gears on this egg beater and each of these particular gears are causes and they're all happening simultaneously. And so, in that sense, we could say that an accidentally ordered sequence of causes, you know, you have to look at it from one particular aspect, okay? My dad gave birth to me, you know, I picked up an egg beater, you know, this is all happening over time. And then once I start cranking that egg beater, it's now an essentially ordered sequence of causes. So,

Starting point is 00:30:41 hope that's a help. Luca asks, what does, if he does, St. Thomas say about scrupulosity? That's a really good question, and I haven't looked into it a great deal, so I'm not sure. My suspicion is that he wouldn't necessarily use the phrase or speak to it in a way that we might speak to it about today. I mentioned last week that I think Martin Luther was influenced by William of Ockham, not last week, a couple of weeks ago, and that he had this, you know, I mean, Martin Luther was seriously scrupulous and terrified of going to hell. And I think that had something to do with William Ockham's notion that the good is what the law commands, and it's all about the law. It becomes all about legalism and so forth. When I struggled with scrupulosity, two things

Starting point is 00:31:30 helped me a great deal. One was the writings of St. Therese of Lisieux. In particular, there's a wonderful book called I Believe in Love, which is a meditation or rather a retreat of sorts based on the teachings of Therese of Lisieux. If you struggle with scrupulosity, I would strongly recommend that you get that book, I Believe in Love. That really helped me. The second thing that helped me was reading what the Council of Trent had to say on the issue of salvation. That actually helped me a great deal as well because the Council of Trent never said that we can't have a sort of moral certainty of our salvation. They just said that we can't have certainty,

Starting point is 00:32:11 absolute certainty. And there's a difference, right? Like, moral certainty is, you know, I have no reason. You know, I have a high degree of confidence. That's what moral certainty is, a high degree of confidence. I mean, when you think about every time you receive the Blessed Sacrament, you're essentially saying, I have a high degree of confidence. I mean, when you think about every time you receive the blessed sacrament, you're essentially saying, I have a high degree of confidence. If I were to die right now, I would be in heaven, or else you wouldn't be receiving the Eucharist, right? And anyway, that book and reading the Council of Trent, what it talks about salvation, that really helped me. You might find that a help for yourself as well. So, thanks very much for that question. Okay, here we go. I haven't read these questions ahead of time, so I'm never really sure what to

Starting point is 00:32:50 expect. Hector Sabolis, thank you so much, Hector. You say, hello, Matt. Hope you are doing great with a new job. You are making a real difference. Your podcast has changed the way I think about philosophy and theology. I'm a physics student at the University of Costa Rica. Yes, Central America. philosophy and theology. I'm a physics student at the University of Costa Rica. Yes, Central America. Dismissing the topic, oh, disgusting maybe? Dismissing the topics you develop as irrelevant or too simple is often encouraged in our faculty conversations, but now I see the beauty and truth in it. My Catholic faith has rekindled as I now strive to read Aquinas and Pascal. My question is, how do you convey to non-Catholics the truth that the church proclaims when they only see our previous faults since the medieval era?

Starting point is 00:33:32 Blessings for you and your family. Take care. Thanks so much, Hector. You are awesome. And thanks for listening all the way from Costa Rica. And thank you for supporting the show. So this idea that I think one of the reasons it's tempting to not associate yourself with any particular institution is that whenever you do that, while you end up associating with the good that particular institution has done, you're also, in a sense, associating with all the evil that institution has done. You know what I mean? Like, as soon as you say, I'm a Catholic, evil that institution has done. You know what I mean? Like, as soon as you say, I'm a Catholic, you can say, you know, we have on our side Mother Teresa and Thomas Aquinas and whoever else.

Starting point is 00:34:16 Yeah, but there was also sex abuse scandals. There were also, like, abuses that happened, you know, prior to the time of the Protestant Reformation and after it. So, I think it's sort of immature to say that if any particular institution has had wicked members, that it therefore has nothing good to say. I think that's a really immature and naive way to think. So, I think what we should realize is that there have always been wicked people within Christ's church. In fact, one of the first 12 apostles, right, was Judas. He was a bishop, right? He was a bishop in the Catholic church. This is how Catholics look at it, dear Protestants, right? And he betrayed the Son of Man to death. And speaking of Tim Staples, he would say, you don't leave Jesus because of Judas. You don't leave Peter because of Judas. Or maybe you see the weakness of Peter, right? And Tim Sabres would say, you don't even leave

Starting point is 00:35:12 Peter because of Peter. So, recognizing that just because individual members of a particular institution have been wicked and done wicked things, that doesn't mean that institution is morally bankrupt. You might say to your friend, if they're looking for a church, you might say, well, if you're looking for a perfect church, you won't find it. And if you did, as soon as you join it, guess what? It won't be perfect anymore. I think all of us have this temptation to look outside of ourselves and to blame the evil taking place all around us and in institutions all around us. And certainly, you know, that can be a legitimate thing to blame and to call to repentance certain institutions that have done evil things. I mean, members in the Catholic Church have done evil things

Starting point is 00:35:53 and either should have repented of these things themselves. We also have Pope John Paul II, who repented publicly for the, you know, evil things that Catholics and Christians have done throughout the centuries. But I just think it's super immature and naive to dismiss the good that one might say because of the evil that person has done. Like you might say to that person, tell me about one of your heroes, right? And whoever it is, if we have any kind of public records on them, chances are they did some nasty things as well. That's just human nature. But that doesn't mean they didn't also have some inspiring things to say. So rather than looking at those who didn't take the medicine, look to those who did. That's how you judge a medicine. You don't say, is this

Starting point is 00:36:39 medicine good? Well, look at those people. They're dying. Yeah, they never took it. In this case, medicine is grace, right? It's the Catholic Church. It's the sacraments. Well, let's look at those who did take it. Well, those are the saints. Those are the ones who took Catholic church seriously. And if they sinned, they repented of it. So you don't judge an institution by the members who failed to uphold the teachings of the institution, right? You judge the institution based on what it teaches. So don't look at the sinners. Look at the institution based on what it teaches. So don't look at the sinners, look at what the church actually teaches. Was it abominable that priests committed sexual acts with young men, sometimes raped them? Yeah, that's very frigging abominable. That's disgusting and they ought to repent and thrown in prison.

Starting point is 00:37:26 Okay, good. But it's not like the Catholic Church said, priests, you ought to all rape young men. That's not what it taught. So don't judge an institution based on its members that fail to live up to the institution. I think that's what I would say. Sorry, that was a little long-winded, but that's what I'd have to say.

Starting point is 00:37:44 All right, guys, that's all the time I have for you this week. Thank you for tuning in week after week to Pints with Aquinas. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Facebook. We even have a Facebook group, which you can join and discuss with thousands of other people who listen to Pints with Aquinas. If you haven't yet reviewed Pints with Aquinas on iTunes, I'd really appreciate that. That would be super cool of you. Please tell your priest and your friends about this show and be sure to go to pintswithaquinas.com. And that's where you'll find all of these podcasts that we've done. You'll see all the icons I told you I would put up for this episode. You can see all of the comic book strips that we do. It's just a cool

Starting point is 00:38:18 place, pintswithaquinas.com. God bless. Chat with you next week.

Pints With Aquinas - 90: Why did Jesus descend into Hell?

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