Pints With Aquinas - A Chat with Bishop Scott McCaig

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

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Bishop McCaig, great to have you. It's great to be here. Last time we met was when? Or were together rather? It's been years and years and even the times we did see each other most recently was very short periods of time. Yeah. When was that?

When was that? I honestly don't remember. I know that your wife came up at one point and visited some mutual friends the Michaelossix and I Chatted with her then shortly But it's yeah, it's hard to remember my spiritual director back when I lived in Canada. When was that 2011? I guess I guess so. Yeah, you were on that staff both. Yeah, we're at one point Yeah, and I think I was spiritually directing pretty much everybody on

at one point. Yeah. And I think I was spiritually directing pretty much everybody on staff. Everybody. It's one of those things where I felt bad because I knew that a lot of people were asking you, like, I don't feel bad enough not to ask. It was good times. I really enjoyed that time and all that was going on. You know, there was a lot of excitement. The ministry was doing really well at that time. And it was great to be a part of it. Yeah. And then you were the head of the Companions of the well at that time and it was great to be a part of it, yeah. And then you were the head of the Companions of the Cross at the time, I think. Yeah, so 2006 I was elected to be General Superior. So prior to that I had been Director of Formation. So developing our formation program for our seminarians and living with them.

Yeah, so formation work and all that it means. And then, yeah, I got the call to serve as General Superior in 2006 and re-elected in 2012. And then the Lord seemed to have other plans for me after that. Yeah, we'll get to that. But for the Americans watching, who are the Companions of the Cross? Companions of the Cross is a fairly small priestly community founded in 1985 by a pretty well-known Canadian priest. Father Robert Bedard, just Father Bob to us, he was a real pioneer of the New Evangelization, New Pentecost, Marian Movement, just a real force of renewal, especially North of the border. But, of course, he did a lot of international ministry as well.

Ordained in 1955 a priest to the Archdiocese of Ottawa, and was a high school teacher and principal for most of that. And then sometime in the mid-1970s when everybody's leaving the priesthood and there's confusion everywhere in the church, he really didn't know what he was going to do or what was going on, or a lot of confusion around his vocation as well. And he started to get interested in these people who were having these experiences with these charisms and with this renewal, this current of grace that seemed to be going through the church. And at first he sort of dismissed it, and then he started looking more seriously, because

some of the people being affected were what he would call A-type persons, like really solid, intelligent, balanced people. And you know, it's a long and hilarious story, the way he would tell it, you know. But he eventually persevered through an entire life in the Spirit Seminar and had a profound experience of renewal. The Lord revealed himself to him in a whole new manner and brought him into an experience of Jesus not just as a creedal statement that he believed and was convicted of, but as an experience,

as something that he knew in a personal manner. He felt like he had met Jesus. I think I remember him saying he woke up the next day after having been prayed over and just had this voracious appetite to read the Holy Scriptures. And it wasn't until he was a few hours in that he remembered, wow, this might be connected

if I'm remembering correctly. Exactly. No, that's precisely the story. They asked him what he needed when they prayed over him. And he basically said, look, he had given up on prayer. He was a dutiful priest. He celebrated Mass every day. He did the office. But in terms of personal prayer, in terms of going into your room

and quiet, closing the door and being alone with your father and speaking to him, that had disappeared from his life. And he knew it was wrong. And so he asked for the gift of prayer. And yeah, the next morning he woke up and he had this voracious hunger for the Scriptures. And he's reading them and, you know, things are jumping off the page in him and his heart is stirred, heart's burning for the gospel in a new way that he had never experienced before. And then he sort of realized, this is exactly what I prayed for. Yeah, it was shortly after that that he read the newly minted Evangelii Nuziandi by Pope

Paul VI, now Saint Paul VI, and it completely changed the way he looked at the ministry of the church, at the way he carried out his own priestly ministry, the way he preached. He really understood in a new way that the church exists to evangelize, to draw people into encounter with the living and risen Jesus. And, you know, so there was just a fundamental turn

in his life. So he was, as I say, a renewal. He was 20, 25, 30 years ahead of the curve in understanding the ecclesiology of Vatican II around charisms, of understanding the church's mission of evangelization, that Christendom was collapsing or collapsed, gone, rear view mirror, and that we had to rethink the way we do church, that we had to rethink our mission, we had

to train our priests differently. We needed to retool the church for a new apostolic age. He was getting that, even then, in the mid-1970s, you know. He started spiritually directing a number of young men in the seminary that were coming around and flocking around him, and it was out of that group that the community was formed. So, it's a community dedicated to the new evangelization, in the John Paul II way of thinking, very influenced by Evangelii Nuziandi. thinking, very influenced by Evangelii Nuziandi. Some of its, the spirituality flowing from the cross, the triumphant cross, the exaltation of the cross.

So the mission is evangelization. We do just about anything that a bishop wants us to do as long as we can live in community and evangelize according to the spirit of the founder. Strong devotion to the church, loyalty, fidelity, orthodoxy. We believe in divine revelation and we don't want a monkey with it. We want to be faithful to it. Understanding there's a development of doctrine, but we need to be faithful to what God has told us to do. We don't, you know, one of his favorite sayings is, we don't need more good ideas, we need more good news. This is Father Bob. Yeah. Devotion to the Blessed Mother,

all consecrated to her, to Jesus through her, à la Saint-Louis de Montfort. Eucharistic, very focused on Eucharistic worship, both within Mass and then adoration outside of Mass, and open to using all of those special graces, as Lumen Gentium calls them. Those special graces, those empowerment gifts to build up the church mentioned in that document. I remember being so impressed. I served with the ministries of Canada back in 2002, and for those at home, NetSense, the national evangelization team. We should probably get a kickback for the amount of plugging we're gonna do with these guys. It's in Canada, it's in Ireland, it's in Australia, NET Ministries, you want to serve for nine months if you're between the ages of 18 and 30 and you're single,

you want to travel around running retreats. And get an amazing formation, an amazing formation. It's maybe one of the best boot camps or novitiates for laity out there. You know, it's an immersion into the Christian life, a serious immersion into Christian life and mission. Is it perfect? No. What ministry is? But they do an amazing job. Neil, would you put links to net Australia, Ireland and Canada? And I also think Uganda as well,

if people are receiving this thing. You know, I don't think they take outsiders. I think they're just taking from within. And I didn't plug Net USA, because I feel like they're probably doing okay. So if you want to go to Australia for a year. I met the first Net team I met, they were parked at my church.

This is a couple of years after my conversion. There were surfboards on the roof. I didn't know any young people in my area who love Christ. So I show up at the rectory and I just see these young, happy Catholics. And like, first thing I said was, can I can I help you or can you help me? And that's when I first met Net and I just had to do it. But but that's what I the point was, that's when I first met the companions. And I was so impressed with them.

I just I was for about a hot minute. It was discerning joining them because just such man was for about a hot minute, it was discerning joining him because just such manly, good, solid priests. That was my experience. Well, I think Father Bob really had a great sense of what it required to become a real community. Not another one of his little sayings. He had so many of these little sayings, you know. Oh, he was terrific. Another one of his little sayings, he had so many of these little sayings, you know. Oh, he was terrific. Take God very seriously.

Take God very seriously, but do not take yourself seriously. Have a sense of humor. You know, be a human being. You have to be a son of God and a real person, even before you're a minister, you know? So there was no fear of being human. I remember there was one religious community that was getting a lot of vocations at that time, just when I was around when I was ordained, and of course they all wore exactly the same, you know, clerical suits with pressed the same way, their haircut was all the same way, it

was all pasted down in exactly the same manner, they, you know, I mean their manners were impeccable and it drove him crazy. He would say, where are the all the same way, it was all pasted down in exactly the same manner. I mean, their manners were impeccable and it drove him crazy. He would say, where are the beards? Where's the character? You look at biblical figures and God seems to like people with some zest and some fire in their belly and some individuality as well. That's what I appreciate about the Phris of the Renewal. They seem to have that idea as well. Absolutely.

They're all very different kind of characters. Yeah. You're on the same mission, but you're free to be an individual as well. Yeah. What's some of your favorite Father Bobadad sayings? I think that's probably one of my favorite right there, but the one that always comes to bite me in the backside is, a decision to stay up late is a decision not to pray in the morning. You know, uh, he was really big on, get up first fruits are for the Lord, you know? Uh, so,

well he would drill that into us again and again and again. It's funny, you know, now that you ask me, I'm going to draw a blank, but my, my favorite father, Bob, but I'd say which I use in many of my talks is since discernment became fashionable No one's made a decision since Perhaps his most memorable saying is something that he believed the Lord told him When he became a pastor for the first time and I don't even remember what the year is but nothing was happening at this parish. It was a dead parish.

And he had no idea what to do. He had been a teacher his whole priesthood, you know. What do I do here? What do I do here? And he's crying out to the Lord in prayer. And what he felt like the Lord was saying, sort of that resonance in the heart, you know, he's not claiming locutions or any extraordinary, but that silent hearing, that listening we all have in prayer, he felt the Lord was saying,

I don't want you to do anything beyond what you're supposed to do as a priest, but I want you to give me permission to do what I wanna do here. And not only that, I want you to tell the people you're giving me permission, and then I want you to ask them for their permission too. And if I get enough permissions I'm gonna move and that's exactly what happened for a year or a year and a half he would sneak it into

every homily he was an extremely effective preacher could use humor like no one I've ever seen before he would have you he had that dry Jewish world weary exactly yeah the dry human he would have got on really well with have you cry off. He had that dry, Jewish, world-weary type of humor, didn't he? Yeah, exactly. I imagine he would have got on really well with Father Benedict Rochelle. Oh, they were good friends. Oh yeah, they were good friends, absolutely. But he would disarm you with humor and then just wham! Hit you with the gospel and you're left there gasping for breath, you know. But that's what he did for a year, year and a half, is preaching permission. You know, I'm giving God permission to do what he wants to do in this parish, and I want you to give him

permission too. And then things started happening. Men started coming into the church and weeping. There was an anointing on the place. People started having conversions. The worship was extremely anointed, and people were drawn into an experience of meeting the Lord through the liturgy of the Lord. And it just, it was a phenomenon. It really was. It was quite an amazing event. He wrote a book called Give God Permission, his own autobiography, you know.

We had to piece it together because he never really finished it before he died. So we took pieces from different talks and put the whole thing together. Neil, you can make reference to that on the Companions website, I believe. But yeah, it's an extraordinary story and in some ways becomes a model for us as Companions. It's like, do we really believe that God is alive? Do we really believe that Jesus rose from the dead and wants to run the church? And if we do, then why are we trying

to manage him all the time? Now there's certain things that the church tells us we have to do as priests, of course. But in terms of major initiatives, major moves, major, why aren't we asking God? And why aren't we asking and trusting that he can get through to us? He can put calls into people's hearts.

He can stir charisms in people's hearts. He can initiate things within the people of God. And then you see what he's doing and you support it. You get behind it. So another one of his famous little sayings there is, no major moves until we hear the Lord give the direction, you know. So waiting upon the Lord, waiting upon the Lord, you know. I know that might sound super spiritual to some people, but we have to ask ourselves if we really believe that Jesus was in that tabernacle and sitting

there, and if there was a golden throne with the risen body of Jesus sitting there, would we act any differently? When we walked into the church, when we prayed before the blessed sac? Would it change the way we act? If we honestly really believed, He is alive, He is risen from the dead, He is the Lord of glory and majesty,

that what we see in Revelations 1, 2 through to 2, Jesus in all his priestly and kingly glory and his majesty and his divinity, the ancient of days with the sword of the spirit in the midst of the church holding all the power, Kyrios, Lord. If we really believe that, would our life be any different? And I think that's one of the fundamental things that he left us in his spiritual patrimony is He is risen. He is alive. Let's live like it and let's lean into him

It's a trance such a great point I mean, I feel like sometimes we offer more reverence to a first-class relic Yeah, then we do to the Eucharist which we have the honor of receiving and as you put it if our Lord Manifested himself to me in his glory, how would I act? It would be very differently. Yeah. So what does that say about my belief in the Eucharist or how I might need to rethink how I act in the presence of the Eucharist? And I don't think it's a matter of of a lack of of proper dispositions.

I think it's it's a matter of a lack of proper dispositions. I think it's a matter of we become overly accustomed to handling such precious things. This is why I'm glad that we don't have the Blessed Sacrament in my house. Right. Because sometimes you think that, well, imagine if we could have permission, we could start a chapel in the house. It would just become, you know, it would be, I would get over it real quick, I'm ashamed to say. Yeah, I mean, I think that's just part of the weakness of our human nature. We're handling

nitroglycerin and we're handling it very, very, you know, irreverently or not very carefully. But when we realize who the Lord is and what He's capable of doing, it changes things. It's one of the reasons I loved the emphasis in the last years of John Paul II's papacy on start afresh from Christ. Begin again, rediscover him as living Lord. Rediscover him, re-encounter him, especially in the scriptures,

especially through the practice of Lectio Divina. You know, it's great that we do biblical study, it's great that we have a really good intellectual knowledge of what the scriptures are, where they come from, you know, the Sitz and Liebman, and all of the categories of historical critical method, that's all got its place. I'm not knocking that at all.

But there's a time to come to the scriptures where we're invoking the Holy Spirit whose primary duty is to reveal to us who Jesus is. To reveal to us the glory of God shining on the face of Jesus. You know, to tear down that darkness that's before us, to let us see him as he truly is. To come to the scriptures with that,

and then to encounter Jesus in the scripture. To really meet him there, to wrestle with Him, to come with complete confidence, as Paul said. And the word there is paresia in the Greek. I'm not sure I pronounced that correctly, I'm not a Greek scholar, but it means unguarded. You know, I hold nothing back. I'm speaking as one friend to another

who has nothing to hide and to really speak to the Lord from that place about what we're reading and being honest. Lord, this makes me mad. Or Lord, I can't do this. Or Lord, I need your help. Or God, have mercy on me. Whatever the act is that's stirred in one's heart, whether it's adoration, contrition, thanksgiving,

supplication, or just silent awe to allow the Lord Jesus, to allow His Holy Spirit to really lead our prayer life. So I'm a huge advocate of Alexia Divina. Yeah, I wonder sometimes if we, I think it was Chesterton who said something like, let your faith be less of a syllogism or of a love affair.

Maybe he didn't say that exactly, but it's something like that where I worry that sometimes I treat Christ like a philosopher who lived a long time ago, who told me how to live, who told me how to live my sexuality, who told me the sorts of things I should do, and I'd rather that, like it's safer, if there was just a set of axioms to live by,

and then I get to enforce that upon everybody and invite them to follow the wisdom of this guy who lived 2,000 years ago. There's a sense in which that's true. I mean, he did live 2,000 years ago. He did say things. We do want to live by them. But I love what I love about my charismatic friends, and I'd love to talk about that word a bit more because it's been tarnished, maybe rightly so.

I want to know where the movement is today, what you think about that. But what I love about my friends who are charismatic in their prayer is they treat Jesus Christ as if he's real and as if he's moving now and as if he's active. They interpret the times in light of the movement of the Holy Spirit. And there can be danger in that. And we've seen the danger, like people go overboard or people start falling into heresy or tinkering with the liturgy and say they got this word from the Lord, which clearly doesn't seem to be true. And maybe in response to that, we say, well, it would be better if you just went away. Lack of discernment, lack of maturity, a little bit of illuminism's creeping in. But before we get into that, I would say, coming back to your point on Chesterton,

there's something that I often say, and that is, in the long history of the church, there has never been a devotion to the sacred brain of Jesus. And sometimes we reduce our faith to that. We have a devotion to the sacred heart of Jesus, whose heart burns with love for us, who is this mad eros agape, love for us. Our faith is about relationship to the living God, and it's easy to reduce it, to have that schism between head and heart,

and to operate merely on an intellectual basis. And don't get me wrong, I mean, in terms of the four voices of God that we talk about, you know, God is truth is the one that speaks to me most powerfully, you know, so I pursue truth, I love truth, I'm passionately in love with the great scripture scholars that illumine the scriptures for us. I love a good book of philosophy

and theology. But, you know, Cardinal Ratzinger, before he was Pope Benedict XVI, talked about conversion is the conversion of the whole person. Yes, the intellect. Yes, the will. I'm choosing to make a decision for him. But it also involves the heart. It also involves we're human beings and Jesus came to relate to us as human beings. He loved us with a human heart. He had a human soul, you know, and we can sometimes forget the humanity of Jesus and that he relates to us as human. So a lot of times the critiques I see and some of them, you know, like you know as well as I do, there can be a lot of immaturity in the way people express a powerful experience. I've certainly been there. Yeah. And so have I.

People told me several months later that when they met me I frightened them and rightly so. I was just on fire for the Lord I just wanted to tell everybody every stranger But isn't that better than somebody who is bored and and you know has it is as accepted as syllogism Yeah, like I think it was the Paul Pope Paul the sixth who said You know if you don't have any enthusiasm in your faith. I have to question whether you have any You know if our conversion has not touched our heart as well as our will and our intellect, is it an incomplete conversion?

I'm not saying it's not a conversion, I'm saying it's a very incomplete conversion. It's not a fully human conversion. What does it mean, heart? What do we mean by that? The heart doesn't think, the heart doesn't will. I mean, it does if you want to define it differently to how we often think of it, but what do we mean by heart? Yeah, biblically speaking it's the center of the person. We think of heart in the modern world

almost strictly in terms of emotion, but it's much deeper than that. It's the true self. It's your unguarded, unfiltered person in original innocence, if you will. That's the place from which the ache for truth, beauty and goodness comes from. That's the place for fulfillment, the desire, the yearning for fulfillment comes for. The hunger for God and for human communion and for authentic desire, that's, it's the center,

it's the core of the person, you know? I believe in historical context, they used to think that the heart played a much bigger role, like literally biologically in decision making and in just emotional things. So the actual organ, you mean the organ itself. Yeah, the organ of the heart, they used to believe in I think Aquinas' time.

I also saw, I don't remember the name of the documentary, but it was a weird kind of pseudosciencey documentary. So don't go on this. But they were talking about a study where they had checked when people were reacting to things, checking both the brain and the heart. And there was activity in the heart. Fascinating for the brain kind of indicating that it might be more of a. And aren't people talking about there being like a bright more more,

what do they say? Not brain cells, but stuff in your gut that's actually being affected as you make decisions and react to things. Oh yeah. The, uh, I've heard that point point is we're far more complex than perhaps we've been given to believe. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. But that heart is the real center of the person, you know, and the authentic, how you put that, yeah, that ache. Oh, I know that ache. Yeah. So conversion has to involve the whole self. But I do think that in in in modern Western society,

there is there is a real schism between the head and the heart. And a lot of people act and move from the brain, from the mind in a way that is almost exclusive. What does that look like? Help us understand that, because I want to discern where and I fall into it. I think maybe I'll describe it negatively. People who are afraid to feel or think that any manifestation of feeling in prayer is somehow manipulative, over enthusiasm, emotion, manipulation, whatever. And it can be, just like the intellect can be fooled and manipulated and used, you know? I think that probably one of the reasons that

Charismatics, if you will, get a bad name, is because there is in what we call the effusion of the Holy Spirit, or sometimes the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very profound encounter which hits you at a level that is beyond the brain. And you really feel like you have met the Living Christ. Not met him as a historical figure, but met him in a deeply personal manner which is hard to describe. And it is life-changing. It is exciting. If anything was going to induce emotion, wouldn't it be encountering the God who loves you? And you know, once again, my beloved Father Bob, he says, once people get baptized in the Holy Spirit, they should be locked in a closet for six months

and then allowed to come out. That is true of me. I would say 2000, I wish somebody had done that, lock me away for a bit. Exactly. But I do think the grace or this current of grace as Francis likes to talk about it, is a gift to the church. Because whenever there has been major evangelical renewals in the church, in her history, times when we need to have evangelical outreach, when we become a professing church, to use that language, when we're on mission in a new way, we tend to have these outflows of the Holy Spirit, these moments of Pentecost in the church that empower it. Give us some examples.

Well, for example, when the Cathedral of Chartres was being built, when was this? It's in France. I don't think it's too far. I mean, when is it? So we're talking about the, is it the 11th or the 12th century? Around then. Yeah. So just to give an idea, this is antiquity. This is knowledge is modern. And I believe now, please don't quote me directly, but I've read the story several times. So I'm going by memory. But I believe the local bishop said, you weren't even allowed to work on that thing

unless you'd been to confession in the last seven days. And they started gathering and reciting litanies and praying together before they would work on it and what happened was Charismatic phenomenon began to erupt So apparently glossolalia this this gift of prayer intercession prophetic words healings all sorts of things began to began to happen another example is the canonization mass of St. Francis of Assisi.

There was an explosion of essentially tongues, prayer gifts and prophecy and all sorts of things which then ignited a whole other wave of evangelization in Europe. I'm told that after the great Arian heresy there was another great influx of the Holy Spirit, another infusion. So, the idea that this is something unique or new is just not true. It's there in the history of the Church. And, very notably, it tends to go with times of evangelization. Yep. Renewal. And so, really the biblical archetype is there. Before Jesus sends the apostles out on mission, what does he do? Does he say immediately go? Or does he say,

no, go and wait and pray for the promise of my father, this other advocate who will come to you. And that's what happens on Pentecost Sunday and etc. I'm thinking if my memory serves that Aquinas says that the gift of tongues isn't something that not that he has to be right but if memory serves I think he said that this was something for the apostolic age. So the notion of dispensationalism the idea that the charisms the more extraordinary charisms were only for the apostolic age is something that Vatican II put an end to the controversy on. It made it very clear that we're not dispensationalists, that it wasn't just for a certain period

of the Church, that it is part of the ongoing reality of the Church. Now, there's a lot of qualifications to be made, you know, a tremendous amount of qualifications. The first I would say is to talk about your concern about sort of an Illuminism. Well, the Holy Spirit told me so. Yeah. Doesn't matter what the bishop said. Doesn't matter what the priest said. Doesn't matter what the catechism says. That's Illuminism. So, that's the idea that I receive, you know, marching instructions directly from the Lord through this experience, and it ignores the mediation of the Church. That is not Catholic teaching that has been condemned from the moment

ago. So it is for the office holders in the Church, the episcopoi, the presbyteroi, the priests and the bishop especially, to test the spirits, to test the spirits, to bless those, to identify authentic charisms, to equip people to do them and then set them on their way. The analogy I like to use is a powerful river. If you've got a powerful river, you've got a force to be reckoned with. Let's say you've only got a river but you don't have any water. Well, what you've got is a ditch, a very nice looking ditch.

It might look great, but there's no power in it. What if you've got water but no ditches, or no sides? Well, then you've got a flood, which is more destructive than anything else. It's a great analogy for the institutional and charismatic dimensions of the Church. We need them both. The Church was founded as a hierarchical body by the Lord Himself. He Himself appointed apostles, and the apostles have their successors, and there's Presbyter Roy, and there's Deaconoi. There is a structure to Mother Church which is intended by Jesus himself. The office of Peter is intended by Jesus himself. So some idea that we can have a free-floating spirituality

without the mediation of the church is contrary to the will of the Lord himself. But we need more than just office holders. And the power comes from the charisms working in the individual lives of individual Christians. So this is something the Second Vatican Council clarified. And to back up a little bit, I hope you don't mind me running on with this matter. No, this is terrific. That's the great thing about long-form discussion. It's alright.

You take as long as you need. I'm loving it. In Vatican I, there were three schemas that were intended and the first dealt with a lot of the philosophical concerns of the day, you know, that was kind of dealt with. And then the second schema dealt with papal primacy and the role of the clergy. The third schema was to deal with the role of the laity. Well what happens of course is the Franco-Prussian War breaks out and all the bishops have to flee back to their own dioceses

to take care of their people. So the first Vatican Council was incompleted. And the first two sessions are complete, the third one is not. So for almost 100 years, you have in theology what we call an ecclesial imbalance, because all the emphasis is on the clergy. And so you get this idea,

which is never the teaching of the church, but you get this idea, which is never the teaching of the church, but you get this idea that father and sister do everything and the lay people pray, pay and obey. Sit in their pew, drop money in the collection basket, raise your kids and stay out of the way. And if anything needs to happen, it's father and sister that do it. You can get away with that in a time of Christendom to a certain extent. Just real, I wanna interject something real quickly.

This was true in Ireland when my wife and I served as missionaries there. That seems to be more kind of ensconced there than perhaps in America or Canada because people would say, no, no, no, no, no. You must be, are you a Mormon? Are you a Jehovah's Witness? They couldn't believe there could be such a thing

as lay missionaries. Exactly, yeah. So, but that was ensconced in the human brain. So part of what the Second Vatican Council intended to do was to complete the First Vatican Council. Many people don't realize it in 1958 before John XXIII started the Second Vatican Council, he had to close the First Vatican Council.

But that's what we see in Lumen Gentium, we see it in the document on priesthood, we see it on the document of the laity as well. What is the lay vocation? Well, it's not of the world, but it's in the world. So those who after the second Vatican Council said, well, we need active participation of the laity, and so they started creating more spaces, more jobs within the liturgy. No, they were missing the whole point. You know, the laity's primary mission, although we need all that, primary mission is in the world. So in the world of politics, in the world of art, culture, finances, etc., etc., etc., and to bring the gospel to those places, to permeate, to be the leaven of the world,

to be witnesses to Jesus in the workplace, in the school, in the family, or whatever, and then hopefully stimulate those questions that people wanna know why you live like this, and the evangelization process can really go from there, leaven in the world. But what's clear in the Second Vatican Council is the Lord equips us with the Isaiahan gifts

of the Holy Spirit, absolutely, but then also what is called special graces or charisms of the Spirit, which are given to everyone of the faithful, from the lowest to the highest in rank, if you will. Just following St. Paul, the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for the upbuilding of the church. Isn't it wonderful that you say something and someone goes,

hang on a minute, that doesn't sound Catholic. You're like, well, the apostle Paul, fair enough. But that's how, and the office of governance for the priesthood is not just a matter of hiring and firing the secretary or making sure somebody pays the bill to get the roof fixed. Fundamentally, spiritually, it's about mobilizing the laity for mission. Helping them to identify the charisms that God has given them for the upbuilding of the church,

equipping them, and then overseeing and sending them out, blessing them. You know, so you've got people in your parish, Father, who have charisms of mercy, who have a charism which means that people experience their activity as more than just natural. They're touching the heart of God through your ministry. This was going to ask you, what's the difference? What do we mean by charism and how is that different to just a natural talent someone might have? Yeah, so I think the easiest way to explain it is the difference? What do we mean by charism and how is that different to just a natural talent someone might have?

Yeah, so I think the easiest way to explain it is to say, how can you identify a charism in your life? And I think the Catherine of Siena Institute has a great training program, a gifts identification program, and they describe it as a couple of things happen that you can tell. Number one, when you're operating in a charism, something wakes up inside of you. You know, it's like a sheep dog seeing sheep for the first time in its life, man. There's a sparkle in its eye, and it knows why it was created. Something comes alive inside of you when you're working in your charism, because it's the Holy Spirit that's moving, who's empowering and anointing the natural gifts that you already have. There's

a trajectory here. Grace builds on nature, perfects nature. The second thing is it works. You have a charism for teaching. People experience it as more than just human teaching. Their hearts are on fire. Something's happening here. God is touching their lives. There's something real.

And then the third thing is you don't have to convince anybody, they come looking for you. You know, so the great joke is, you know, well I have a gift of prophecy, but I have to convince everybody that I have a gift of prophecy. You don't have a gift of prophecy, you know. So that's how you can tell. Grace is building on nature, but there's something alive inside of you, and so you get up in the morning and your head pops off the pillow because you're excited to get at it. You want to get at it. You're yearning to get at it.

The spirit is moving within you. People experience it as different. You know, you just think of the people who Mother Teresa touched and cared for. You know, testimony after testimony, it was not just a social worker. It was, somehow they were being touched in the flesh by Jesus.

It was more going on here than just human ministry. There was something happening. And it's not just the extraordinary gifts. This is the other hang up people have, the extraordinary gifts. The council makes it clear, from the extraordinary to the most ordinary gifts. So administration and helps and service and giving and there's a whole array of

gifts that are mentioned in the scriptures that we wouldn't normally automatically think of as of charisms. But they're as necessary for the building up of the church as the extraordinary ones. You know, there's very few miracle workers, but there's a whole lot of people needed to teach. There's a whole lot of people needed to hospitality ministry or just another gift that comes to mind. The Companions of the Cross have a group of women who have formed a sisterhood, the servants of the cross.

And they also, Father Bob is one of their founders, along with Sister Anna Chan, their mother. And at one point, they had a small downtown, inner-city parish they were living in. It was a companion's parish, but they were living in the rectory. And they started an outreach, an outreach of poor in the neighborhood.

They called it, well, I outreach of poor in the neighborhood. They call it, well, I think it was eggs and fellowship. And so without anything more than an opening prayer, a blessing of the food, and a closing prayer when the meal was over, they would open their doors and street people would bring them in and cook them meals and love them. Well, I was a general superior of the companions

at that point, and I was getting letters. Some of them from people you could tell were barely, barely able to write. But they were writing me letters saying, when the sisters take care of us, they don't even have to open their mouths and talk about Jesus. We feel like Jesus is loving us.

They were experiencing the love of Jesus through the hospitality. I found out later that three of the four sisters doing that, their number one charism was hospitality. So this is a key understanding, I believe, of the ecclesiology of the Second Vatican Council. It's completing the First Vatican Council.

First Vatican Council was very clear about the institutional aspect of the church. But as John Paul II said very clearly in 1998 at the Pentecost Vigil, co-essential to that is the charismatic dimension of the church. They have to work together. You need the banks of the river, but you also need the water in the river.

And the clergy's there to direct that power, direct it in the right direction, make sure it's not destroying anything, make sure it's properly ordered, make sure it's properly discerned, step in and correct it when it's a little off or there's tendencies towards a luminism or there's some teaching that's a little off. Help us connect this back with the scriptures when Saint Paul says what would happen if everybody was an eyeball? You know, so what you're saying now is just scriptural.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if you read the epistles of St. Paul, honestly, there is a basic presumption that everybody has charisms and that they're using them. When you see it with new eyes, when you begin to look for it, you go, there it is, it's everywhere. And it's the functioning of the mystical body of Christ. Jesus is still baptizing, Jesus is still preaching, Jesus is still healing, Jesus is still offering the sacrifice,

the Eucharist, the eschatological Todah, He's still doing all these things, only now He's doing them through his mystical body, the church. Some of those things he's doing through holy orders, and some of those things he's doing through the laity. But all of us are part of the mystical body of Jesus, and we've all got our part to play. And how do you know what part you're supposed to play?

By discerning what charism he's anointed you with. So I think it's really clear, it's really clear when you read Lumen Gentium, when you read you know the priests, the I'm sorry the the documents name is escaping me right now but both on the laity and on the priesthood you know the priesthood is supposed to, you know that threefold, identify, equip, and commission the laity in the charisms, the special graces that God gives them. You know, whether they're extraordinary or completely normal, because everybody's got

them. Do you think we need a different word than charismatic? Because I don't know, when I think charismatic, I think people who were fired up back in the 70s and 80s and who chose to live together and good for them But then it just when I see those sort of people today. I don't resonate with them often and Yeah, I'm kind of put off honestly by and maybe I shouldn't be so feel free to push back No, I think I think they're kind of charismatic expressive masses. I'm put off by drum kits at mass entirely I'm put off by all that. So is that just a matter of me being a sort of liturgical? No, no, I don't think so.

There was a series of talks. I think snoot is a word. I use the word snoot. I don't know if snoot is a liturgical word. We'll have to look that up. Is it a pictionary word? Benedict the 16th, well, they put together a series of talks both from before and after he was Pope called New Outpourings of the Spirit. I think Ignatius Press put it out. And he says some really important things in there. And one of them is, yeah, there was a certain immaturity and a lack of theological reflection about the movement

in its early days. And so the reception of the church to the renewal on one side and the actual practice of the renewal on one side, and the actual practice of the renewal on the other, there was a lot lacking on both sides of the equation. So there was a lot of, unfortunately, because there was a vacuum of Catholic teaching, because most office holders were scared of this movement, so they didn't say anything about it, they ignored it. So where did people go to get information? Well, into Protestant sources. And so, you get Pentecostal

theology slipping in, you get, you know, sources which are not properly integrating the institutional and charismatic aspects of this, not properly bringing it under the tradition and in the tradition of the Church, from the heart of the church, excorde e ecclesia, you know, so mistakes were made. And as Father Bob said, people who get touched by the power of the Holy Spirit for the first time often tend to have exaggerations or there's a lot of emotion. I also think it's true that people who are broken are very attracted to the power of it because they find a place where they might receive healing, but they carry a lot of that human brokenness into it. Yeah.

So you've got some of that. We can't throw the baby out with the bath water. This is it. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? You're going to look at people being emotional, who are bringing Protestant things in and just say, okay, no more of that charism stuff? Well, then you have to throw out St. Paul.

This is all our patrimony in the church. Do we throw out the Our Father because the Christadelphians pray it too? You know, because some heretical group will say, you know, praise the Our Father so we won't pray it anymore. Do we not read the scriptures since our Protestants emphasize that? Exactly.

And as Louis de Montfort says, the enemy doesn't counterfeit copper, counterfeits gold. That's why some of the greatest aberrations in the church's devotions over the years have been the most important things like the Eucharist, like Our Lady, like the Holy Spirit. The greatest aberrations can be in those areas because that's precisely what he wants to tip over, tip over that cart, and he can really do some damage to the church, right? So, no, I don't think you're wrong to say that some of the expressions of it were really,

were off and needed to be corrected and needed maturity. Once again, Father Bob saying, you know, the renewal will come into its own not when the whole church comes to the renewal, but when the renewal enters into the whole church. And I don't think it's absolutely critical that you have a quote unquote Pentecostal spirituality in order to be moving in power in the gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit. Because surely some of this is temperament, isn't it? Some of it is.

The expression of it. I don't think that an authentic charism that God gives you is prone to, you know, extroverts or whatever. But I do think that the way you express it is going to be extroverted or introverted depending on your own disposition, right? So the way it's manifested. But I'm not going to throw out the very answer, the Lord's provision, because I don't like this or that.

The truth is that renewal periods in church history are messy. They have always been messy, they always will be messy. When God starts doing something that is outside of our accustomed way of doing things, it throws us off. But are we going to tell the Lord what he can and cannot do? You know, the provision of the Holy Spirit coming in what we would call kind of a quote unquote new Pentecost, but it's not new, it's just the same pouring out of the Holy Spirit from Jesus. Because we're in an area of crisis when Christendom has collapsed,

it's in our rear view mirror, when everything that we relied on in the past is gone and the church needs to retool herself for a new apostolic age, and he provides the grace of the Holy Spirit, this current of grace to get it done. Are we the ones to say, yeah, no thanks, no thanks, my ideas are better? I don't think we can do that. And I don't care if you prefer the Tridentine Mass, the Byzantine liturgy, the Chaldean liturgy,

the Novus Ordo, or something from the Coptic rite. I don't think it matters. I think we need the Holy Spirit. And I think that if we study the church's history carefully, we'll see how the saints responded to it. Read the life of Philip Neary and tell me there weren't charisms operating. Tell me what happened with him. Well, he was, I forget the year now, he was celebrating mass in the catacombs, I think

the, I'm trying to remember, St. Sebastian catacombs. It was an altar of a first century martyr. He was celebrating mass on it, and a ball of fire, he said, came out of the tomb and went down into his throat. He swallowed it and set his heart on fire. And that was the beginning of his re-evangelizing Rome. I mean, in Rome they call him the second founder of Rome. He re-evangelized the city. When did he live, Neil? Saint Philip Neary. I heard a great story about a prideful man

who came to confession and confessed pride and Philip Neary made him carry a cat around town for a few hours or something to that effect. Stories like that are quite common with him, aren't they? Exactly. Like I heard in the 1500s, he died in 1595. Okay. Yeah.

So I don't remember the year of that event, but it really was a profound outpouring of the Holy Spirit into his life with very evident charisms. You also think of the mendicant orders. That would be another example. Mendicant orders, yeah. Speak about that. So this isn't, well, I mean... Just for those who aren't aware of the word mendicant or mendicare. Mendicant, well, really it's apostolic monks.

Yeah. So prior to the 13th century, the 1200s, you know, you have the Benedictines and various offshoots of Benedictines all over the place, and the Cistercians and the Carthusians. But Francis and Dominic both found communities that are living religious life, but they're apostolic. Yeah, they were so unrespected that Thomas Aquinas' mother had his brother arrest him and hold him up with that, because she wanted him to be a Benedictine,

because the Dominicans were just this raggy kinda order. And remember that there was many people at the time who felt that this was an innovation which was not welcome in the church. Yes. This is not the way we do things. I'm quite excited to argue for this at the University of Paris. So when God does new things sometimes we need to, as John Paul II said, he comes in surprising ways to, as John Paul II said, he comes in surprising ways and carries people to new forms of commitment, which, you know, like this whole idea of the spirit blows where he wills. He knows what we need in every period of history.

The analogy I like to use is when Jesus was walking through the Holy Land in his earthly ministry, he didn't do exactly the same thing everywhere he went. He met the needs. Even similar things like healing the blind. Yeah. Sometimes he spits into mud, sometimes he does this. Like if you were following him around trying to write down how to heal the blind, it would be very frustrating. Exactly. But he doesn't do exactly the same. He meets the needs of the time. Well, I think that Jesus in the

church is walking through the ages and he gives us what we need in every era of the church. So does every era of the church look exactly the same? Is it a cookie-cutter? Can we take the year say 1014 and say that that applies to everything that we do from the first century to the 21st century? Well, in some ways yes. There are some standards. There's the sacraments and there's, you know, the institution of the church. There's reliance on the Holy Spirit. There's certain aspects of spirituality which are universal. But we also have to let the Lord be the Lord. And if he wants to found a whole movement of apostolic monks which changes the whole

perception and understanding of the church and a radical outreach of evangelization which converts half the world, well, he's Lord, he's curious, you know? I think, trying to speak for my friends who would be more traditionally minded, they would say, I'm all for the Lord working and nobody's saying the Lord may not work. What we're seeing though is incredible amounts of abuse, Catholics who are uncatechized. I saw a mass taking place in Chicago the other day, I think it was, where people were blowing bubbles and dancing around,

making a mockery, it seems to me, of the sacrament. And when you see that, you become very skeptical of anybody who's talking about changes in the church. Yeah. Help steal their position and understand it. No, absolutely. And I sympathize with the position. Because I think, Ralph McInerney wrote a great book years ago, What Went Wrong with Vatican II, or something of that like.

And I agree with his thesis. The problem isn't the council, the problem was the application of the council. And I think that's essentially what we heard from John Paul the Great and Benedict as well. You know, read the text. It's inspiring. It speaks to our time. There's a lot of prophetic stuff in there. And even those three or four different texts that people have trouble with. I read, you know, Bishop Schneider's critique. And even he said there's only about three or four different things in there, but even those have been largely explained in the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict in an extremely satisfactory

manner, which gels with the whole tradition of the Church. But the craziness that went on, it was almost like something was unleashed in the Church, and it wasn't holy, you know? I mean, I've met priests who are talking about they're trying to consecrate pizza and pop, you know, for kids, trying to make it more relevant, the Eucharist. And there was just this absolutely crazy throwing out of everything which was part of the historical understanding,

self-understanding of the church. So I have a lot of sympathy for that kind of thing, part of the historical understanding, self-understanding of the Church. So, I have a lot of sympathy for that kind of feeling. I feel the same way. The abuses, the liturgical abuses that go on. Unbelievable. You know, heartbreaking. Is that the problem of the Novo Sordo, or is or is that the problem way the novus order is being celebrated?

You know as you know priests will tell you from the 50s the way the tridentine mass was being celebrated in the 50s That was an abuse too. They would rattle through an entire tridentine mass in 20 minutes, you know People would come in and get halfway through the rosary and they're out the door again, you know, so I Don't once again. I guess the point I'm making is I sympathize. There's a lot of things going wrong. There's a lot of abuses happening both in the teaching of the church and in the liturgy of the church and in her outreach. A lot of things. And that's why my own personal conviction is we need to, we need to get back to divine revelation.

We're spending so much effort and so much energy arguing and dickering about ecclesial politics and liturgical politics and social justice politics, and I'm not saying they're not important. They have various levels and degrees of importance. But let's get serious about what Jesus called us to do. Let's get serious about going into all the world and making disciples, about baptizing in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, about teaching people to obey everything that the Lord taught us. I think, though, what's frightening for people, people though is if I do convert you, I'm scared about the church you might attend.

Yeah. Well, I think this is where there's a level of trust has to happen. But I think more and more we have to form these communities of faith. Groups like Amazing Parish, Divine Renovation, other groups like that, even many traditionalist communities. I have no issue with the Tridentine Liturgy. It's a beautiful liturgy. As a bishop, I'm required to be able to celebrate it myself.

I love, well, my Latin is very weak, so I struggle. But as part of a diocese that also includes Catholics of other rights, I also need to be able to celebrate the Byzantine liturgy. I think that there's a beauty in the diversity of the Church. And why in the world do we get in this either-or concept? Why not both-and? When it comes to music with the nova sordo, I think there's room for contemporary forms,

provided they are worshipful. Worshipful. Polka masses don't meet that grade. You know? I think what's difficult is it feels like there's too much wiggle room when you say contemporary is okay if it's worshipful. You know? Well, and it's... If you go with the Second Vatican Council and it says give Gregorian chant prior place, then let's just do that. Absolutely. Well, I

have no issue with that and I love Gregorian chant. Yeah. I like the way that Father James Mallon and Divine Renovation do it, you know. So, for example, in St. Benedict's Parish, which is a Companions of the Cross parish in Halifax, the Saturday evening Mass is, hey, it is very traditional. It smells and bells, Gregorian chant, taisé, whatever, you know, it's very traditional. It's a lot of incense chanted, you know.

The early Mass on, I think, Sunday morning is organ music, the traditional hymns, you know, the old hymns, lift high the cross, etc., etc. And then the 11 o'clock mass would be a more charismatic mass, if you will. But the music selection is made by people who understand the liturgy, who understand liturgical moments, and who understand the kindurgy, who understand liturgical moments, and who understand the kind of worship that draws the heart into the liturgical movement, and into the liturgical moment, right?

I think Benedict in Spirit of the Liturgy has a lot of good things to say about this. And I also agree that in the Latin rite, we should be preserving the pride of place for Gregorian. I think that we should and especially in high solemn masses on the great feast days and everything else I think there's there's something of the timelessness and the beauty of it. Especially in a fluid society where the sense of the sacred has been robbed from every corner. Yeah.

To have to go to mass that feels just as reverent as a 7-Eleven shopping run. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. No, I don't have an issue with, you know, the desire to return and, you know, take from the treasure house what is old and what is new. I think we have to carefully discern. I'm a proponent of the reform of the reform of the liturgy. If I understand correctly in my own studies,

what we have in the Nova Sordo is essentially about a fifth century pontifical mass. Explain that for us. Well, it would be very similar to what was being celebrated in the fifth century. The Nova Sordo. The Nova S century. The Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo, yeah. As it's laid out.

As it's laid out today. I don't think that they were celebrating Populorum. I think they were probably, you know. Say that again? You don't think we're celebrating? They were celebrating around the altar so that the priest is facing the people. I think they were probably doing it the other way. But nonetheless, the prayer, the structure, the flow of the liturgy would be very similar

to what we have now. And there's something, and I think this is what we forget. There was a desire at the time of the Vatican Council, and I think there's something very authentic in this. They call it ressourcement. They wanna get back to the biblical and patristic sources. They wanna purify the church in a way that knocks off the barnacles of things

that are no longer serving the church's mission. They want to get biblical, they want to get patristic. Now, did some people misuse that? Absolutely. But is that an impulse from the Spirit? I think so. I think there's something in that. I've celebrated Mass all over the world, traveling as a missionary with renewal ministries.

I've seen properly inculturated liturgies in Africa, in Southeast Asia, in Vietnam, and it's done reverently and beautifully and powerfully. And I think it was a proper understanding of the enculturation of the liturgy which the Novus Ordo made possible. And I think that was the goal, a mass with which to evangelize the world, which put a deeper emphasis on the word of God

and which reclaimed some of the other Eucharistic prayers, although the first Eucharistic prayer is still the Roman canon, it still has pride of place. But like the fourth Eucharistic prayer, which is roughly St. Basil, you know, it's so evangelical and the carigma is just so prominent in it, it is so powerful. The majesty of God reaching down into this broken world despite our sin and reconciling us to himself with his two arms of the Son and the Holy Spirit. And I mean, it's majestic. It's beautiful.

I think one of the things that attracts people to orthodoxy today or even to Eastern Catholicism is that we are entering a liturgy that was written by Basil the Great and Chrysostom, you know, with some changes, but you feel like you're being put in touch with the early church. Whereas when you go to the nervous auto and you know, way more than me. So I'm not trying to tell you something, but I'm just trying to understand it. It feels like there was a radical break from what had naturally evolved. That just seems like a violence took place.

So I don't know how you can see that as a. I, you know, I can see that as a good thing. You know, I sympathize with that position too. Largely, I believe it's the way it was implemented rather than, I mean, I've seen the Novus Ordo celebrated with great dignity and solemnity using chant and incense and it is beautiful. I went to a Novus order that was celebrated essentially according to sacrosanctum concilium.

And, you know, most people, I don't think, would be able to tell that it wasn't the Latin mass, you know. So, you know, what do you think about those who say, yeah, good. I'm OK. Like, I mean, section and concilium said Gregorian chant prior to place has said nothing about the priest facing the people. It said that the we should know the Latin in the ordinary, or the ordinary in Latin. But I would feel today that if there were people

trying to push for that, there would be a lot of pushback against them from the hierarchy who would say, no, no, you're trying to drag us back. Well, some of the hierarchy, some of them. Certainly not from me. Okay. I think the problem is that the question has become so charged

that it's hard to actually have real conversations where you can hear each other. Because people who are reacting against these abuses, they rightfully are afraid of what they've seen and the abuses, and so there is a retrenchment, and absolutely, and I can understand it. That's a great way to put it. It's understandable why you might at some point circle the wagons, if you feel the wagons are under attack. So it's hard to have that give and take and that back and forth, but when you read Sanctor Sanctum Concilium, there's some things there that I think were really important.

So for example, active participation, very misunderstood. It was received by much of the church as, well, we need more people doing more stuff in the liturgy. That's not what it means. It means, do you understand that as a lay person, what you're fundamentally doing at every sacrifice of the Mass is you are giving the Father in the immolation of Jesus himself in an unbloodied manner. You're giving Jesus to the Father for the salvation of the world.

Yes, through the mediation of the priest and the mediation of the church, absolutely, absolutely required, but in your lay priesthood, if you will, your royal priesthood, that's what you're doing. Part of what had happened, unfortunately, and it was never the intention, but by the time you get to the 50s or 60s or even earlier, you know, at least I'm told from priests who are celebrating it is you had three liturgies going on. The priest is doing his private mass at the altar. The choir is singing. He might have done the creed ten minutes ago, and now the choir is catching up and doing the creed, and the average layperson is sitting there doing the rosary.

So there is not this one movement to the Father through the Son in the Spirit. So there was a desire to bring that into one liturgy. So the private silent prayer is said aloud now so that people can unite heart and mind to the act of offering. So that they too are offering Jesus to the Father in an unbloodied manner as we enter into that liturgy of heaven through the mass.

So that stream landing of the liturgy such that we're all on the same page doing the same thing, I think was important. I think that was a key movement. The idea that the worship should be, you should be able to enter into it. You should be able to chant it as well. There should be a level of understanding so that you can pray the liturgy. And if you're praying in a language you don't understand, if you're praying a complicated piece of music that you can't follow, that's not gonna allow you to do it. Is there a place for more complicated, more complex,

more beautiful hymns? Absolutely, like the Offertory, like the post communion hymns as Benedict XVI made clear. But in some of those other hymns, like entering into the Lord's presence with praise and thanksgiving, communion hymns as Benedict the 16th made clear, but in some of those other hymns like entering into the Lord's presence with praise and thanksgiving. I shouldn't be going to a concert, I should be entering into worship as in preparing to meet the living God through this holy sacrifice re-presented at the altar. You know, anyway, I'm not sure. I mean, I think a lot of this desire to circle the wagons and to go back.

Surely some of it, I would say a lot of it would come from the fact that we live in a polarized society, many of us from broken families. It doesn't feel like the culture stable. We're afraid of the future. We're afraid of our ideological opponents politically. And so we just need something that's standard, doesn't change, that's just reliable. And I don't disagree with that.

But I do think that that comes from a, that reaction from the chaos isn't good. You know, like if it feels like everything's on fire and then it feels like the church is on fire, which is what it's been like for many of us, I'd say over the last 10 years. We felt 10 years ago society is on fire, but Pope Benedict's at the helm and we are the church and this is great. Pope Francis comes along and people have a lot of questions about Pope Francis. It feels like he's doing a lot of questionable things or things that we

would think are wrong. And so now it feels like there's no safe space anymore. Not in my house, not in America or wherever you live, not even in the church. So bloody hell, like I need something. And often I think that something is clung to with an inordinate fervor that turns people off and that may not be healthy. But I understand why we're doing it.

No, I do too. And I think that we have to provide that something that people can be healthy. But I understand why we're doing it. No, I do too. And I think that we have to provide that something that people can cling to. My fear is twofold here. One is that there's a great danger for the enemy to take what is a good desire and twist it into something bad. You know, Ignatius, I forget which rule it is

in the rules for discernment of experience. You know, he's more than happy to sing in the choir, to go along with you in something that is good, but then slowly turn it. And I think the danger is that we can become jaded, we become angry, we become almost mean-spirited. And so, in my desire to preserve that which is true and good and beautiful in the church, I get mad at everything that is not in accord with that. I start judging in my heart. I get jaded. I get this edge that starts, this cynicism that hearts. Regulations. Is that a fruit of the Spirit?

I think that's something that the enemy can move in and capture people and it's a very dangerous thing. You and I both know people who started out, you know, full of the joy of the Lord and full of excitement about Jesus and about falling in love with Jesus and about the mission of evangelization. And now they're just angry. They're angry about everything.

And you talk to them and it's all they wanna do is complain about this and complain about They're angry about everything. And you talk to them and it's all they want to do is complain about this and complain about that and complain about this. And I just want to shake them and say, can't you see what's happened? Can't you see what's happened? You've been turned here. You've been turned. You know, when we start to lose the joy that the bridegroom brings, we should be, there should be alarm bells going off. And it brings me to the second qualification I would make to what you just said, and that is, God brings good from all things for those who love him. If he's allowing a trial within the church,

just maybe there's some things we need to be learning. Just maybe some of our security was in things that are here today and gone tomorrow. Maybe we're more, we're finding our security in ecclesial politics instead of in the person of Jesus. Maybe our joy is found in particular expressions of particular spiritualities instead of in the Lord Himself. Maybe there's a stripping going on here and a pruning in the church and the Lord is bringing us back to himself. I'm not saying he caused anything in the first place, but he will use all things for good. I think that's one of the points that Ralph Martin is making. I really regard Ralph as a prophet.

And prophets are never popular because prophets ask very uncomfortable questions that we don't like to answer. And we don't want to face the answers because it's too painful to face the answers. But when he talks about the church being under the judgment of the Lord right now, he is exposing the rot. He is letting the light fall on areas that were hidden in the darkness. I think he's right. And I think it's all for the good of Mother Church.

Does it hurt? It hurts like hell. Is it painful? Oh, man. Do I find joy in being associated with some of the things that some of my brother bishops have done? It's a painful place to be. But if I step back and if I say, Jesus, what are you doing and how do I get on board with what you're doing? And I think that Ralph is right.

I think that one of the things he's doing is he's purifying us of what maybe Francis would call an ecclesial centrism or a too much inward focus. Let's get back to focusing on the living Lord. Let's get focused on Jesus and his mission and the church as the mystical body of Christ empowered to live out his mission on the earth. I think we have to get back to that.

I think that's why get back to that. I think that's why charagmatic evangelization has become so important in our time. And then followed up with a real healthy, orthodox catechesis rooted in divine revelation. Not more good ideas, but good news. You know, and then equipping people for their mission within the church.

That's where our joy is. That's where things are gonna come from. I'm tempted here to talk about scandal, a biblical view of scandal, because I've talked about this a lot to various people who have been, I think, shaken in their faith. Seeing scandal after scandal after scandal in the church, it seemed for a while there that every time you open the, you were scared to open

a Catholic newspaper or, but I think it's really important as Catholics, we understand that right from the beginning, what is going on? What is going on in the world? Let me use an analogy. When you get two weather systems, a high pressure system and a low pressure system, and they collide into each other, what do you get? Some sort of storm.

You get storms. And the greater the difference in the pressure, the more violent the storms are. That is a perfect description of the history of the church. Because what we're talking about is the kingdom of God invading, slamming into the kingdom of this world, which the scriptures make clear is under the dominion of the evil one. It's a fallen world. And the kingdom of God is invading, and the gates of hell cannot prevail. We often

think of that scripture in the reverse way. You know, the enemy's attack on us can't succeed. No, no, it's the other way around. He can't stop, you know, our attack, the attack of the Kingdom of God. It's invading. And so there's a clash of kingdoms going on. And whenever you get the clash of kingdoms, you're gonna get storms. Jesus lost one of the 12. Jesus lost one of the 12. The other apostles don't come off looking that great either,

do they, when you read the scriptures? It's only after a lifetime of purification, of suffering, of proclaiming the Word, of persevering that they become the saints that we now rightly venerate. What the hell was going on in Galatia? That Paul has to start his letter, you stupid Galatians! What was going on in Corinth that he has to excommunicate somebody from a distance? That on the same hand, these marvelous, magnificent gifts of the Holy Spirit are being manifested and yet corruption in the same body.

Did Jesus not warn us that the kingdom of God would be like... a field of wheat in which the enemy would sow tares. They would grow up together, but in the end he would separate them. Did he not tell us there would be wolves in sheep's clothing? Did he not tell us that he would have to separate

the sheep from the goats at the end of time? Did he not say it was like a fisherman bringing up a great load of fish where he used to keep some and throw others out? You know, we shouldn't be shocked or surprised if we know the scripture and if we understand the biblical worldview that the church is going to have difficulty, corruption, scandal, at the same time

as it manifests saints who shine with blazing glory, who light up everything around them, advances in human culture, advances in education and holiness and human rights and basic fundamental human dignity. Everywhere the church has been, these things have advanced, you know? But there's also those weeds among the wheat.

Why do we not expect to see that? We should expect to see that. I think what's troubling for many people is when they see it in the hierarchy, namely the very people they're meant to be obedient to. Was Judas not one of the 12? He was. You know?

Yeah, it is disheartening But we have to remember feel right like if it's if it's people in my family you say they follow The church and then they're sinners then I can deal with that, but you understand It's really difficult for people when if they feel like many bishops don't have their back like it's LG It's like LGBTQ pride month and how many bishops have spoken openly, helping their flock resist these these attacks, telling them to stay away from so-called gay pride parades when you don't see them, not even that they're not well, they're not leading sometimes. And then it feels like they're also in bed with the enemy.

So it's like, well, who the hell am I supposed to listen to? And how can I trust that I can listen to you? I think this is one of the things the Lord is teaching us is, you know, look at the saints who lived in times of great difficulty in the church. You know, look at them and study their lives in the confusion of the Reformation period. What did those saints do? You know, it's easy and I'm not saying that that's not a problem, because it is a problem. If a shepherd is not defending his sheep, he's going to, he's accountable to the Lord. And let me tell you something, I take that, you know, I sit in my own chapel on a daily

basis and I go, Lord, forgive me in any way that I'm failing. Forgive me in any way that I'm dropping the ball here. Because I'm going to answer for them. I'm going to answer for all of that, you know. So, I'm not excusing anything. But I am saying, look at those saints and what did they do? They didn't excuse their behavior because the bishop isn't acting the way he should be acting or they don't like this particular pope, they took responsibility for their area of competency. What is God called me to and I'm gonna do the best I can? I'm gonna be the saint that Jesus calls me to be in my call, in my vocation, in my sphere of influence.

Amen. It is saints that reform the church. And in my little analogy of storms, you know, in the darkest, when two storm systems collide, and it's dark, right? You don't see the sun. You know, I've been driving around at noon in a storm when there's twisters going, and you can't see the lights in the car ahead of you.

You pull off and hope you're not going to hit the ditch. But then all of a sudden, you can see everything clearly. Boom! Everything's clear, and you can see where everything is, because a flash of lightning came and it threw light on everything. Saints are the lightning in the midst of the storm. They throw light on everything. They help us to see the true parameters of what is going on and help us to get on board.

And that's my call, that's your call, that's every one of us's call in our own environment, in the midst of the storms that we find ourselves, be the lightning. Be the lightning. Make the difference. Be the saint. I can blame my not being a saint on anybody,

but it ain't gonna hold up when I stand before the saint. I can blame my not being a saint on anybody, but it ain't gonna hold up when I stand before the Lord. You know, He's given me the graces, the gifts. He's given me all that I need to be a saint where I am right now. It's not whether we do great things, it's whether we do great things, we're little things with great amount, you know? And I think something we all have to be on guard on about those of us who love the church is that we don't replace our prayer life for, as you called it, ecclesial politics, because it feels productive to get angry somehow. And so it's like, well, do you pray?

Yes, I pray. And I'm very angry about it. And I scroll through my political ecclesial news feeds. And maybe that's substituting my time of prayer. I remember when I was on net, I would spend my hour of prayer time that they encouraged us to do daily just studying apologetics, which is great, but it wasn't that heart-to-heart communication with the Savior who loved me and how much further from the way things should be if what I'm doing is

just getting angry about bishops and forwarding things and retweeting things and and I get it and I fall into it but I don't want to like I really want to love Jesus and not just be angry I think I think the Lord's growing me in that area I feel that but but I think all of us have to kind of reflect and say have I but am I becoming like that am I just am I just getting angry because it feels productive it feels like I have control over something do you think that's what does? Do you think that's why we like it? I think so, because there's something cathartic about it. It's a place to let out emotion. Yeah. It is a way to let out all that pent-up emotion and anger and whatever, and it feels good

to get it off your chest. And you couple that with social media. That's a dangerous place. But I think the place that we have to do that is in prayer. When I'm frustrated and angry about things going on in the church, or I feel hamstrung that I can't do what I would like to do, I bring that to the chapel. And I tell the Lord, look, Lord, I'm mad. I'm ticked off. And sometimes I use harder language than that, you know.

And here's why. I mean, He knows it anyway. But I think sometimes, you know, here's the level of our prayer, you know? And here's why. I mean, He knows it anyway. But I think sometimes, you know, here's the level of our prayer, you know? Oh Lord, in this pericope, blah, blah, blah, and here's what's really going on in my life, you know? Down here, you know, anger and lust and unforgiveness and self-hatred and this and that and the other thing. And the Lord is just saying, oh, please. Bring me your heart. And the Lord is just saying, oh please. Bring me your heart. Bring me your heart.

That's real prayer when those two things come together. When real prayer meets the Lord in reality, in truth, in authenticity, that's prayer. And that gives the Lord permission to speak into our lives and deal with what we need to deal with. That's what makes saints. That with what we need to deal with. That's what makes saints. That's what we need to be. I'm always struck by the fact that when Jesus calls the apostles, He calls them to be with Him and to be sent out. And I think that's true of all disciples.

And I think that's true of all disciples. Our first ministry, our first call is to the Lord, to real relationship, and from there, we carry him into our life. We carry all that he's doing within us into our life. That prayer of St. John Newman, you know, about being the radiance of Christ, carrying the aroma of Christ in the world, May people only see you and not me. That's yeah.

How did you become a bishop? And when you were 20, if somebody had said you'd be a Catholic bishop one day. Yeah, that would have caused a lot of laughter. So I didn't grow up Catholic. I had a journey into the church. I won't tell the whole story because it's a long one, but you know, worked my way through do I believe in God, and do I believe Christ is who he claimed to be, and that eventually led to the question of, you know, 30,000 denominations, which one is, you know, the one I should belong to. And I saw people from all sorts of denominations

that were authentic and beautiful people, honest people who had good reasons for believing what they believed. Although clearly they didn't line up, they contradicted each other. But my undergrad degree was in history, and so when I basically began to hear the same thing everywhere,

that we're living the authentic life of the apostolic church, and everybody else got off that road somehow in certain ways. Well, saying that to somebody studying history is like throwing raw meat in front of a Rottweiler, right? It's like, what did the early church believe? Those whom the apostles taught, how did they interpret the scriptures? How did they understand these things?

Which brought me to Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Irenaeus, which, which of course led me into the Catholic Church, you know. So, 1987, Holy Saturday Vigil, I was received into the church. What year? 1987. Terrific. Yeah. I was four. Continue. Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. I really appreciate that.

You're welcome. I think I'm going to have some milk of magnesium lay down now. So my first full year as a Catholic was on Net Uniminisharies. Really? Was it? Which was... 1984, 1985? No, it was no, 87, 88.

Okay, so you came to church and then a couple of years later... Came to the church and somebody suggested I should apply for net. I took my youth group to a net retreat and a team leader by the name of Meg Nichols said you should apply for net. And she's thinking three or four years once you've actually, once the chrism on your head has actually dried. But I thought right away, I was so confident I didn't even apply for university the next year. And I found out later that they said, no, he's been a Catholic like 14 hours, we're not going to take him on the road. But then a number of them came back

after the weekend and said, I think the Lord wants this guy on the road. So I was accepted. But it was the best thing for me. What a year of formation in the scripture, formation in fraternity and a life of what it means to be an authentic Catholic disciple. It was just such a rich environment to grow and to learn. Could you sum up one more time, I think we did it in the beginning, what is net? Because we're going to have some links below. And I was joking about not putting that USA in the bottom. We should definitely do that. But what is NET? Well, it stands for National Evangelization Teams.

And the reference is to the NET thrown into the sea. So an image of evangelization. And it's essentially young people between the ages of 18. And I don't know what the cutoff date is anymore. 2830. 2830, somewhere in there, who give a year of their life to bringing Christ to young people in youth groups, in schools, in all sorts of different ways. They use a variety of techniques, talks, small groups, music, skits, basically anything that is going to grab somebody's attention and let them have

an encounter with Jesus in a real way. Thank you. I didn't want to interrupt your story, but I just wanted to make sure people knew what that was. So you served with Net. Yeah. Served with Net. I was certain I was going to go home and marry a college sweetheart. That didn't quite work out the way I'd expected. Ended up in Ottawa with the companions of the cross. I had met this Father Bob Bedard at a charismatic conference that Net was ministering at. So impressed with the man. It's like, I want to be this kind of priest, you know. I want to make a difference. I want to expand the tent pegs of the kingdom of God.

And so I came and I joined and I was ordained in 1995 to the priesthood. I did all sorts of different things. I was an associate pastor, a pastor, a hospital chaplain. I worked in formation work. I did some street ministry. I eventually worked in formation work with the Companions of the Cross, director of formation, and did two terms as general superior of the community. Loved it. Fantastic. And then got a phone call one day. Yeah, tell me about that. How did that happen? You want to hear the story? I do, yeah.

Yeah, okay. So, the Apostolic Nuncio, at that time, Archbishop Bonazzi, I had met him on a number of occasions, and we had had a number of different conversations about issues in the church. He'd asked my opinion about things. He was helping with certain movements that I was also helping with. So I was

around Catholic Christian Outreach, University Ministry, Catholic's focus, if you will, or Canada's focus, if you will, Net Youth Ministries, Spiritual Motherhood of Priests, and other groups. Yeah, so I knew him and I'd spoken with him a number of times and he had called me on occasion asking me, you know, what I thought about this or that or the other thing. So the Lord completely set me up because the year before these white envelopes started going around. And these white envelopes is when a priest is being checked out, when the nuncio is trying to find out about a priest whether they would be a good candidate for the episcopacy. Pete This goes to the bishops.

Pete Yes. Pete I see. Pete They send out these envelopes to people who work with them. So, I'd received these before, and they basically say, would this person be a good candidate as a bishop? Would they make a good bishop? And, you know, asking a lot of questions about their life and whatever else, you know. And at one point, I noticed there was a lot of those showing up in mailboxes from people I knew but they weren't coming to me and I was like oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Saint Clementine's, you know, where Pope Saint Clement is. And I just begged for his intercession and grace that, you know, this might pass me by, if you will. But asking for intercession for the courage, should it happen?

But I thought I'd dodged the bullet because the diocese that were open and looking for bishops all got filled. And so I thought, okay, I'm on the woods. So was it a genuine relief? It was, oh yeah. Yeah, I suppose if you're a priest who wants to be a bishop, then you probably shouldn't be one, that's what they say, isn't that right? Well, at this point, I'd been a general superior for almost 10 years.

I was under no illusions. And my vice superior in the Companions of the Cross had been named a bishop two years earlier, Bishop Christian Riesbeth. That's right, yeah. And I knew what he was living. He's a very close friend and remains a very close friend. He's one of the finest bishops I've ever met.

Amazing man of God. So I was under no illusion. So there was genuine relief. Then the next year, so my devotion, my personal devotion life has always been, I've always been attracted to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the pierced and burning heart of Jesus, the eros agape of God, the love of God for humanity that is a suffering love, a self-sacrificing love.

And the modern manifestation of the devotion to the Sacred Heart is really, you know, Divine Mercy. So during the year of Divine Mercy, on the feast of Divine Mercy, I get a phone call. And the nuncio says, are you going to the holy hour of Divine Mercy at this particular parish? And I said, yeah, I'm going to hear confessions. And he said, great. Immediately afterwards, can I grab you for a few minutes? I just want to ask you a question.

Great. I'm fine with questions. I love them. I'm thinking nothing of it, right? And so we're still within the hour of mercy on the Sunday of Divine Mercy during the year of Divine Mercy, you know? And he just starts chatting and he's saying,

you know, the military ornate of Canada needs a bishop and I'm thinking, okay, he's looking for names. And so I'm going through a short list in my head of who do I know is a priest with a missionary heart who has had military experience and is perfectly bilingual because you have to have French. And do you have French? I had none. And barely had English. So I'm having a little,

I'm almost half paying attention because I'm thinking of names. Yeah. And then he turns to me nonchalantly and as whatever, as you know, it just as you know, pass me a can of a glass of water. He just, you know, turns and says, and Pope Francis has appointed you. And of course, it, you know, it means this and it means that. I'm just, I'm not even sure I heard it correctly. So I'm just stunned. And I didn't hear what he said for the next two sentences. And then he turns again and he says,

you know, this presumes that you accept. Do you accept? And at that moment, once again, a line from good old Father Bobby, Father Bob Bidart, goes through my head, because he used to say it all the time in reference to Our Lady and Our Marian devotion, the word that the Lord wants to hear from you is yes. In case you were wondering. In case you were wondering. So I said yes, And then I immediately threw

in and say, but I don't speak any French. And he says, that's okay. Your lessons start tomorrow. No. Yeah. And then I said, but I have no military experience. And he says, that's okay. We want someone from coming in from the outside. And so I, yeah, my face was white. Somebody said, I looked like I had seen a ghost as I walked out of the church and went home and didn't sleep for two nights. Really? Now, what what's the etiquette? I mean, can a can a priest presumably say no, but but but do they often?

And what's that? My understanding is, yes, you can say no, but you have to have a very good reason. In fact, by the time that you're informed that you've been named, yeah, you've already been named in Rome. So in other words, if you want to beg off, you have to write a letter, a personal letter to the Holy Father telling him why you cannot accept.

So I heard from one bishop, I won't tell you who, because he may not appreciate me sharing it, but he said, I can't do it. And the nuncio said to him, well, why not? And he's thinking maybe there's something in his closet or something he made a mistake when he was younger or something to that effect. And he says, well, I've been a chancellor

and I've been a vicar general, and I know what it requires and I know I don't have it. I'm just being honest, I just don't have it. It's not in me. I can't do that. It says, well, you'll have to write to the Holy Father. And at this time it was John Paul II. So he wrote a letter to John Paul II and he sent it off and a couple weeks later he gets

a letter back from John Paul II that says, I read your letter with great interest and I was extremely edified by the depth of your self-knowledge and humility and it has only increased my confidence that you will be a great bishop. Request denied. Oh, fantastic. So, yeah. So you said yes. And so what happens at that point?

Did you, when did you meet the Holy Father? Not until later. The first thing you do is you decide on a date that it will be announced. And in the meantime, you have to do some work. So you've got to decide who's going to ordain you. So which bishop you're going to ask to ordain you. And which are the two bishops that will be the co-consecrators.

Where it's going to happen, therators, where it's going to happen, the feast on which it's going to happen. You've got some work to do to come up with your coat of arms and, you know, put some thought and prayer into it because it really should signify who you are and what you want your minister to be about, you know, your Episcopal motto as well, which you should put some time and effort and energy in to really think about. This sounds like the fun bit of becoming a bishop. Yeah, that's the fun stuff. And then, you know, you've got to get the bishops, shall we say the bishops bling? Okay, yes.

The castings in the ring and the pectoral cross and all of that, you know, so. Tell me about your pectoral cross that you chose. So, yeah, I understand that it used to be quite traditional for bishops to have relics in their pectoral cross. And so, when I was in Rome looking for one, somebody offered to buy me a cross and wanted, and at first I only saw the front of it and said, you know, this is the cross we'd like to get you. And I said, it's beautiful. I would, I would, I would be very grateful. And then I realized, oh, grateful. And then I realized, oh, it's got a spot at the back for relics. And so I prayed and – And there were no relics in it at the time?

No, no, it's just empty. Okay. And I prayed about who were going to be my Episcopal patrons, who were the saints that I really needed to lean into. And one of them was St. Clement of Rome. Because of that day I spent begging him, you know, for intercession, for if this is not God, let it go by. And if it is God, then please give me the courage to respond. So I have a chip of bone from St. Clement of Rome.

John Paul II is my hero. He always was. He was the pope when I came into the church. His vision of the church, my whole community is based on his vision, so he's my guy. Not perfect, nobody was. They're the vicars of Christ, they're not Christ. You know? What?

And, but, so I've got a piece of his cassock, and it was St. Therese of Lisieux who taught me confidence. Oh, me too. Who helped me to overcome my myself, my insecurities, my self-loathing at times, my scrupulosity, my beating up on myself, and really gave me, taught me what it means to really believe in the gospel, to really trust taught me what it means to really believe in the gospel, to really trust that it's not about my performance, but God's goodness. And so I have a piece of her hair in there as well. How did you get a piece of Therese's hair?

There's a priest in my community, Father Carlos Martins, who has a whole ministry of rags. Oh yes, I met him. I stayed with him in Toronto when he was at the university. I think the University of Toronto. So I reached out to him and he says, he said, no problem. And so I can hook you up. Yeah. So he, he has the authority, you know, to, to seal reliquaries, you know,

to authenticate the relics and to seal the reliquaries. And so when you say you have a chip of bone and a piece of hair and a piece of cassock is, I presume these have been removed from Their reliquary or whatever it was placed in or are they in little reliquaries? No To be honest, I don't know. Yeah, I've seen a picture of it and they're just sort of in one reliquary Oh and they get slipped in there and then is it together? Is it sealed or it's sealed? It's glued Yeah, it's yeah, that is so. Catholics are so weird, isn't it? I know.

We bang on about how sacred the body is, but if you're holy and dead, we'll throw you in the chipper and spread your pieces throughout the world. It's the most crazy thing in the world, and yet it's so biblical, right? I mean, I agree, but tell us why. Well, I mean, look at the bones of Joseph raising somebody from the dead when a corpse is put on them, you know, the handkerchief of St. Paul and the shadow of St. Peter and God working through mediums, you know, working not mediums as in spiritualists, but you know, the medium of nature,

it's just everywhere in the scripture. It's also just so human. That's what I love about being Catholic. You don't have to put your humanity to one side Yeah, you know, yeah very beautiful for a for a little motto. I I chose something from Mother Teresa which was in My and my understanding of it is you can find that online Neil. Maybe you could throw it up on the screen for folks So, I don't know if anybody's interested in this or not. I am. Okay.

Bishop Scott McCaig's Episcopal motto. Motto? No. Motto, yeah. I chose it. Mother Teresa, and apparently 1947 had an apparition of Jesus suffering on the cross with all these souls crying out to him. And this is when he spoke to her and said, I want you to be my light in the darkest places.

And the whole time, our lady was holding her. Our lady had her arm around her and was holding her. So apparently she would often say, and Austin said to the sisters and to the brotherhood, that's where you need to be, near the cross with Mary. Near the cross with Mary. So that's what I took. Yokshtakruchem kum Maria, near the cross with Mary. Near the cross with Mary. So that's what I took. Yokstokruchem kum Maria, near the cross with Mary.

Being a companion of the cross. Did you find it? I found the phrase. Okay. We'll find it, we'll throw it up after the break. It's gonna be so much fun. Can I come up with an episode? You can come up with a motto.

Well, it could be a personal motto. Yes. But one last little piece that's fun. I was told a story, now I don't know if it's 100% true, but I was told it from several different people, so I think it's true, that when John Paul II was elected pope, the first thing you have to do at the end of a papal election is you have to sign your name the first time, which ends the conclave. So your new name. Well of course, you know, ink's, you know, pens blot with ink and mistakes can be made and so they always have an extra one

ready. Well my understanding is that he signed his name for the first time and then the Latin expert, you know, grabs the paper and is starting to pull it away as if he had made a big mistake. And he drops his hand on the paper and looks at him and this specialist looks at him and says, Holy Father, Holy Father, there's no J in Latin. There's no J in the Latin language because he had signed his name with this big, huge, looping J. Euanus, you know, John Paul II. It should have been I and he wrote a big J and so there's no J in Latin and apparently he turned to him and said, daddy is now. So in my in my episcopal motto I've got Iucs de Crucem with a J instead of an I. Okay, fantastic.

I imagine it must take great humility on part of a bishop to allow one to kiss their ring. It feels, yeah, it feels very odd, but I think it's reminding yourself that it's not you, it's Jesus. It's got nothing to do with you. That's what I want to say to a priest. If I, you know, in the Eastern tradition, I was in the Byzantine kind of, well, we would go to a church for three years, you'd kiss a priest's hand. And if a priest would have pulled away from me, I think that's what I'd say, like,

well, this has got nothing to do with you. Give me your bloody hand. I was told that Catherine Doherty at Madonna House, the priest in my community, an old Marine, Father Ed Wade, tells the story of, I believe it was him. I could be wrong. I'm getting old. All my stories get jumbled, you know.

That's all right. They become better that way. But they stand when a priest enters the room at Madonna House when you come for the first time. And I guess this priest entered, I forget if it was Father Ed or somebody, and everybody stood and he's like, oh, no, no, no, no, you know, just call me Joe. And, you know, nobody needs to stand, no fuss. And apparently, Catherine Doherty looked at him and says, Father, get over yourself. Oh, that's so good. It's not about you. That's so good. It's not about you. That's so good.

It's about Jesus that you bring to us, you know? Amen. It really does take humility to receive honor. It really does. I mean, maybe you're arrogant and you want it, but I mean, for most of us, it would feel really weird, I imagine, to have somebody take your hand and kiss your ring.

Yeah, it is. Mother Teresa said something to that effect in an interview. She said, what's it like when all these people cheer you and call you a living saint? And she said, well, I just think about the donkey that carried Jesus. And she said, in my country, the sacred animal is a cow. So she just said, I would just tell Jesus, Lord,

they're really cheering you. I'm just the old cow that you're coming in on. That's terrific, yeah. You know, I think that's, may he become greater and we become lesser. Funny story about this. So that's from John 3.30, right? I was reading Aquinas' commentary on it

and Aquinas is sometimes hilarious and I'm pretty sure he's not meaning to be. It's sort of like your nerdy friend who's like super funny, but he doesn't realize he's being funny. So he says he one of his reflections on that is, well, this did happen literally because Christ became greater on the cross, whereas John had his head removed and so physically became less like, dude, that is not that that wonderful, interesting,

one of the full eggs of Jesus. All right, let's take we're going to take a break and then come back when we come back. I want to talk about your devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, maybe a bit more about the Eucharist, and then we're going to take some questions from our locals and Patreon supporters. Sounds great. Sweet. Thank you.

Matt, Matt, we're live. We're live. Welcome to the intermission, everybody. Well, I'll let you know about a few things that we got going on. First, I've started a brand new channel called Victory. It's a people who want to over. That's not real whiskey.

I feel like I have to tell you that and talk about like how to overcome porn. That's water or it's whiskey. So it like I have to tell you that and talk about like how to overcome porn. That's water Or it's whiskey. So it's called victory This is the new channel and it helps people overcome pornography and we hope that you will go and subscribe My goal was to get 5,000 subscribers by July 1st. We've almost got 9,000. So let's make it 10,000 by July 50,000 by July 1st, we would absolutely love that click the link in the description below below, go check that out. Second, I wanna tell you about the greatest app on Earth. It's called, no it's not called Victory, we don't have one yet.

Then that'll be the greatest one. It's called Halo. Halo.com slash Matt Fradd. Halo is the best Catholic prayer and meditation app on the market. You didn't even know you needed it, but once you download it, you'll realize that you did. It's absolutely fantastic.

If you go to Halo, H-A-L-L-O-W.com slash Matt Fradd, sign up there, you'll get three months for free. You can try it out. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay a cent, but I think you'll love it so much that you'll continue to use it. If you wanna grow in your prayer life, if you wanna make it a more regular part of your day,

you can't go past hello. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Also, if you want Scott Hahn to read you to sleep. Yes, Scott Hahn does a sleep story. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Did I tell you that it was super weird when I saw him at mass the next day? It's an intimate thing.

I have him laying on my pillow, not him, you understand, but the phone laying on my pillow and he's reading soft words to me. I love you, Scott. And then I saw him the next day and blushed. I also want to invite you to become part of our free speech community over on locals. Locals as I say, free speech community, it'll be there long after YouTube has, maybe they

won't ban me, but I wouldn't put it past them. Did you know that TikTok just gave us an official strike? So if, if TikTok bans me, I'm not even making this up. It will be part of my official bio. And we should probably have t-shirts banned on TikTok. Yes, because honestly I lost respect for myself when I joined TikTok. Anyway, point is, if Big Tech censors me and censors these conversations, we're not going to be censored over at matfrad.

And also follow us on TikTok. Yeah, matfrad.locals.com, matfrad.locals.com. We are releasing a bunch of stuff that's going to be available over there. For example, Dr. Ed Faser, who is the expert I would say on Thomas Aquinas's five ways has just recorded a very Substantive seven-part video series teaching you about the five ways of Aquinas how to understand it how to respond to atheistic objections It's not gonna be available to the public, but it will be available over on matfrad.locals.com We're also putting together a real ink on paper newsletter that's going to be beautifully produced

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That's just something else you'll get in return Matt frat dot locals.com that frat dot locals.com. Thanks for being here That's a real physical paper. That's right So you could even get a paper cut can't get that on electronic newsletter Also, if you haven't yet, please subscribe click subscribe on this channel click the bell button that'll make me feel good if nothing else cheers this is very circular you're watching it I'm watching me yeah let me have a look at it yeah ooo

and like who designs it you design it no no but after you design, who puts it together and makes it look nice? There's a, there's, yeah, I mean, there's a coat of arms place that does this in Canada. I'm sure they have the same in the States that properly registers it and, and, and all of that. Nice. But you know, the idea is you're supposed to put some time and thought and prayer into

it so that it expresses something of who you are. Like very quickly, I chose the three stripes because my background is Celt, you know. So cool. And so, they had a strong devotion to the triune God, you know, just think of St. Patrick's Breastplate or whatever else. The centrality of the cross, because I'm a companion of the cross, the sacrifice, it's red for the color of the sacrifice of Jesus. The star in the upper corner is Our Lady, because she's always been a huge part of

my spiritual life. And then the other side is the patron of the Canadian military ordinary, which is St. Martin of Tours. And of course, he was a catechumen for the church, and still a soldier, and he, a catechumen for the church, I was still a soldier, and he saw a poor man, and he took off his Roman cloak, and he cut it in half so that this poor man could have something to keep warm in, while later in a dream Jesus came to him and said, I was that poor man. And, you know, look at Martin he has shared with me his, and he was also, you know, a lay person and later deacon, priest and then bishop, so he covers all of the bases in terms of our chaplains, you know.

I love it. I love it. I'd like to ask about the green hat on top. That is traditional. That's just an image of being a bishop. You'll notice it when it's a cardinal, it'll be a red hat. I see. Cool. Yeah. You'll notice that when it's a cardinal, it'll be a red hat. I see, cool.

You know, it's funny, when I came to Christ, or he came to me in the year 2000, and I immediately started, the only kind of other Christians in my area who loved our Lord were Protestants. I didn't have anyone my age. In fact, he was my bishop, who was my main source of fellowship. Bishop Eugene Hurley, saint, love the man, absolutely love him.

He was such a beautiful example to me. So I'd go over to his house, have cups of tea. It was a little more laid back in Australia as it is here. You know, but, you know, it's a lot of Protestants, you know, that I'd meet up with. And that's when I started to have to learn, how do I respond to these objections? And are they even can I even respond to them? Maybe they're right.

And so I started trying to understand how Catholics view the Blessed Mother and explain you her to Protestants. I think in the beginning, I was a little apprehensive, as many people are, when they encounter the work of Louis de Montfort and Maximilian Colbe. Now, like I hear Colbe, I'm like, go further, Coward, more, more. No, I'm just joking, but I just I love it. I love our blessed mother. Talk about your own love for her.

Yeah, well, I would have had the same sort of hang-ups coming from a non-Catholic background, and wondering if that sort of withdrew from the centrality of Christ. Mm-hmm. But I think I got some good teaching early on that I recognized that the saints manifest the glory of the Lord. They don't detract from His glory or from His mediatorship, you know? That in the same way that in the church I can ask you to pray for me and, you know, I can pray for you. Well, you know, Moses and Elijah are appearing to Jesus and they're talking to him, so clearly that's not an issue.

You know, the book of Revelation has the, you know, the 24 elders around the throne and they're clearly offering the prayers of the saints through incense, so I didn't have an issue with intercession of the saints fairly quickly. It took me time to kind of gather. To be honest, at first I just trusted the church, because my first issue was one of authority. Why should I believe, you know, the Catholic Church rather than, you know, this or that or the other thing? And I came to realize that, oh my goodness, even the Protestants accept the first six ecumenical councils. I mean, why do we believe those books are in the Bible? Because Catholic bishops came together in council under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and said so. Why do we believe in the way that we describe the Holy Trinity? Or Christ as one person with two natures? I mean, all of this was worked out

a thousand years before anybody even imagined that you could be a Christian and not in communion with the bishops, right? So, the authority issue had been settled for me. So even though I didn't have all the answers, I knew that there were answers, and so I trusted. And it was later that I started running into people like Scott Hahn and others and their eggs of Jesus and just going, oh, wow, okay, boom. Once it is, it's discovered the know, discovered the whole typology of the Queen Mother in the Old Testament and Our Lady, and seeing that in the Gospel of Luke, and seeing that in the Book of Revelation, seeing that at the wedding feast of Cana,

it's just, wow. And seeing how the earliest Christians revered her, prayed to her, sang hymns to her. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's important whenever we're speaking about something that we know will be misunderstood or is likely to be misunderstood, that we begin by saying what we don't mean. Yeah. So if I'm talking to a Muslim and I'm trying to talk about the Trinity, the first thing I'll do is say we're not saying there are three gods,

we don't believe in three gods. It's almost like once you set that up, you're going to set the parameters up. Then wherever you go within them might be up to your taste or it might be a difference in expression. And so I always like pointing out that Louis de Montfort says in the total consecration, no, no, uh, uh, total consecration, true devotion. Thank you. True devotion. How he says, uh, Mary, uh, you know, God has no need of her, no absolute need of her. Never has, doesn't now. She is an atom or less than an atom, nothing at all, yet, there's the next important point, given that he's chosen to bring about his most marvelous work through her, we can trust that he who doesn't

change will continue to use her, that sort of thing. Absolutely. It's important to say that. And so much of, I think, was it Fulton Sheeon she I was it was Archbishop Fulton Sheen who said you know there are millions You know there isn't a hundred people in America who ate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who mistakenly Hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be I think that's different now. You know well I could be but it's only was at the time back when people thought men were men and women women right now I'm sure Yes, different. No, it's true though. It's true. And you can say

something similar, right? There aren't a hundred pro- well, yeah, who knows? But I don't want to pretend that Protestants aren't very thoughtful people who have investigated what the Church has said about herself. There certainly are those. But I think many Protestants have assumptions about what Catholics believe and teach. Yeah, so those whole surprise by truth books that were put up by Marcus Crotei where they... Pat Madrid. Yeah. I think.

Yeah. Yeah. That's correct. Yeah. So all these conversion stories of Protestant pastors and whatever, and it just seems like in every single one, they're making assumptions about the sacramental system or they're making assumptions about the deification of Mary or they're making assumptions about the sacramental system, or they're making assumptions about the deification of Mary, or they're making assumptions of this or that or the other thing, and then when they actually study the Catholic faith, they realize it wasn't the case at all. You know,

it was much different than what they had assumed. So, but you know, in ecumenical dialogue, I try to remember that, and because sometimes I can make assumptions about my Protestant brothers and sisters too, and you know, there's much that can be learned. There's aspects of the tradition that we have, what shall we say, we've not used to the full, which they are using, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And total consecration to our blessed mother. When did you do that, and do you do it yearly or? So my devotion grew over time. I mean, I very quickly sort of gravitated to the Blessed Mother and prayed the rosary

was my principal way of relating to her. It wasn't actually until I had become a priest that at Madonna House with my spiritual director, I made the full consecration in kind of a serious manner, in a deliberately a serious manner, in a deliberately, consciously serious manner to Jesus through Mary. So that has been an integral part of my own walk with the Lord ever since then. You know, it's letting her be in my life who God wants her to be, which is Queen Mother, the great

Ghabura, you know, the one who brings my needs and petitions before him in a very particular way, who covers me with her mantle of maternal love, protection, intercession, you know. The analogy I love to use when explaining this to people is, to Jesus through Mary does not mean that she's a physical barrier that I have to go through to get to Jesus, nor does it mean that I have to talk to her first in order to talk to Jesus. It's much like if I wanted to scale Mount Robeson. I could sit down with a bunch of topographical maps and histories and try and figure out the best way up the mountain. Or I could go get a guide who knows the mountain like the back of her hand, who knows every trail and every stream and every vista and what's danger and what isn't dangerous and

the best time of the season to go and where the sun sets and the quickest, safest, most efficient way up the mountain. Well, that's what Our Lady is for me. And I've yet to meet somebody who has a real devotion to the Blessed Mother, who doesn't also have a real love and devotion to the Holy Eucharist. Yeah. Have you? I've found that my devotion to Our Lady increases my devotion for Jesus, especially in the Eucharist.

Because I, in fact, when I'm praying the rosary on the third joyful mystery, the nativity, I often ask Our Lady, help me to love Jesus in the Eucharist with the same love that you had holding him in your arms for that first time. Because I think that is really, it's a Eucharistic image. Because Eucharist continues, in a way, the incarnation of the Lord. He's continuing to unite himself to physical creation throughout history. And so there's a definite connection there. Well, also just the idea that Bethlehem means house of bread and manger is a word for eat,

isn't it? Yeah, there's something to that. Yeah. Yeah. Munger, munger. Yeah. I mean, it's remarkable. And he's put in a feeding trough, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Munger, munger. Yeah. I mean, it's remarkable. And he's put in a feeding trough, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. What, suppose there's somebody out there, they want to maybe reignite their love of the Holy Rosary, but maybe it's gone stale, maybe they just find it repetitive. What would you say? Well first of all, I could point them to a deeper understanding of who Our Lady is, because that's the first thing I think you need to know. And I used to think that Scott Hahn's book, Hail Holy Queen, was the best.

I think that it has some competition now in Brant Petrie's Jesus, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary or something that affects. That is also stunningly good. or something that affects, yeah. That is also stunningly good. I mean, so understanding what God's plan is for her in your life makes a huge difference. Then I would say the proof is in the pudding. Start praying it and see what happens. I really do believe that it is a profoundly beautiful way to do Lectio Divina. Because essentially what it is, in my opinion anyway, is you're sitting at, and with Catherine Doherty I'm stealing this from, you're sitting with the Blessed Mother at the kitchen table in Nazareth and she's explaining to you who her son is. That's lovely.

You know, so you're going through, you're meditating on the mysteries as you're asking for her, you know, to bring those virtues into your life. You know, so, you know, first of all, you're saying you're blessed among women, and because you perfectly manifest this virtue or this gift or this grace that we see in this mystery. You know? Now please pray for me that I would receive this in a deeper way. So it's intercessory. And I believe that, you know, as you're meditating, you're going to get some guidance, you're

going to get some help to see things you never saw, to have a deeper understanding of who Jesus is as she takes you and walks you into the heart of her son through those beads, or through those mysteries, you know? I also think it's very powerful in spiritual warfare, you know? Mason- How so? Or in what way have you experienced that? Chris- Yeah, well, for example, you know, so biblically, first of all, most of you would know Mary is the ark of the new covenant, right? Just as the old covenant carried, you know, the the the staff of Aaron, the priestly staff which was dead, which bloomed again, which came to life,

the manna from the desert, and the table of the law, the words in stone. Well, Our Lady carries within her what? She carries the word of God become flesh, she carries the great high priest who will die and come to life again, and the living bread come down from heaven. She carries that, you know. The very same, there's about five or, I think René Laurentin said there's 12 allusions to Mary being the arch of the covenant in Luke chapter one and chapter two, you know? Went into the hill country for three months and the Holy Spirit comes down, the same Greek word used, you know, etc., etc. Well now think about what the Ark was in the Old Testament.

Well first of all, it was a privileged place of encounter with the Lord. The Lord is the Lord of the universe. He's everywhere. But there's a privileged place of encounter because he's there on the mercy seat. Our Lady is a privileged place of encounter. She brings you directly into the heart of God. I've never heard that before. That's beautiful.

So beautiful, so powerful. Yeah, that's really good. But also when Israel is at war, where do they put the ark? They carry it into battle to assure their victory. At the front of the army. Because when the ark is at the front of the army, the battle belongs to the Lord. And so I think there's this intuition in the church right from the moment, from the get-go. This is a woman who crushes the head of the enemy.

She is as terrible as an army and battle array to the enemy. And read the lives, read the experts, read the exorcists. You know, I've been involved in deliverance ministry myself to quite a degree at one time in my life. They hate that woman. The demons fear that woman. There's even a sense in which, as I've heard it read on many occasions, there's even a sense in which they hate her more and are more fearful of her than Jesus. Why? Not because she's greater than Jesus, because she's just the moon reflecting his light, the light of the Sun. She's just a creature. But to be defeated by the Word of God become flesh is one thing. Right.

It would be like if I got into a fight with a man and his wife beat me up instead. That's far more humiliating. Yeah. But to get beaten by a simple creature is, you know, this bag of water that's, you know, that's a mere creature, you know, and she defeats him by her humility and she crushes his, like, that is just too much to bear. That is too much. So, I think another insight that a priest in my community had, he was asking the Lord in his own Lectio Divina, he was praying through the Annunciation, why are the words hail Cacare Tomine,

which is what it says in the Greek, which is actually her new name, right? She is, and what it means in the Greek is, she who was, past tense continuous, made perfect in grace or transformed in grace, which is also at least an intimation of the Immaculate Conception, you know, probably not strong enough on its own to be a proof, but it's an intimation. Why does that throw the enemy into such a fit? Why is that so powerful? And the insight came, well, when did the enemy hear

those words for the first time? One of the seven archangels before the Lord comes and bows before a probably 13 or 14 year old girl. It says, hail, Cacaritomene, hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. And you can just see the head going. Who was promised to come in Genesis? The new woman and her seed who would defeat the enemy and his seed. Here she is.

Here she is. Here's the one whose son is gonna bust his head and destroy his kingdom. So every time we pray the Hail Mary it throws the enemy into disarray and scatters his plans because you're invoking her whose whole job is to mess up his plans. Amen. So when the saints call the Rosary a weapon they're not being hyperbolic. No. Yeah the scourge of the enemy. I think Saint Padre Pio called it right. Very good. Yeah Well, we have a ton of questions from our supporters and feel free feel free to think of this as the lightning round

No pressure to give a comprehensive and satisfactory answer. I can give a comprehensive and satisfactory answer Well, this will be an excuse now. You can say, I said not to, and that is why you didn't. Now I'm gonna, you know, I haven't read these ahead of time, so I'll. Uh-oh. Yeah, so we'll see what happens here.

Local supporter Ben says, does the church hierarchy understand that the more worldly and modern the church becomes, the less people are interested? If not, why not? I would agree. I think it can be a problem. There's a need here in which we have to walk a knife's edge. We have to see the signs of the times and then we have to respond to it prophetically. Some of that means being able to speak the language of the time in a way that will be understood.

So there's a certain way in which we do need to understand modern culture and be able to speak to it in a way and in a language that can be understood and that won't be alienating. But we can't accommodate ourselves to the culture, which is by definition the world, which is an enemy of God, because there's aspects within it which are contrary to God and his plans. So there's two mistakes that we can make in the church, and one is to give up and accommodate ourselves to things which are contrary to God's will, which are contrary to the commandments, which are contrary to the mission of the church, to just sell out to what is convenient and what is easy and what is culturally going to win us friends or appear to win us friends, which it doesn't. And that's just surrendering the fear of God to the fear of man.

And then there is the other mistake of becoming so rigid and inflexible that we don't care if anybody's listening to our message or can understand it. So we have to watch walk that nice edge. I think that we can find examples of both in the church today. And I think we have to be very careful. It's not an easy place to walk and we're going to make mistakes. But the moment we start surrendering the gospel to popular ideologies for the sake of convenience or the path of least resistance.

Or trying to make them like us more. Trying to make them... You know what? It will never work. In my own country, Canada, there's a big deal about the whole residential schools thing. People forget that the reason the church even bothered to accept the government's invitation to be involved in those schools is because it was the latest modern craze.

It was the latest sociological fact that the best way, the best thing for the native peoples was to, you know, to Europeanize them and to, we always get in trouble when we sacrifice our own theology, our own understanding of what God has said in favor of some local or some recent sociological trend. When we sacrifice that, we're dead, we're dead in the water,

because it's the gospel has power. And it is the gospel that brings human flourishing. It's the gospel that speaks to what human beings really are and what we really need and will build up human dignity, will allow us to thrive as human beings. So yeah, it's a great question. And does the hierarchy understand that? I would say read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In principle, we do. Are we always faithful in living it out? I think that one of the great troubles we have is that in addition to being holy by her very essence, because she is founded by Christ and is the body of Christ, the Church is also filled with sinners who are too often influenced by their own culture and their own times, sometimes in ways they don't even understand. One of the analogies I love to use, I know I'm being long-winded here in my answer, is think for a moment of the way that the people of,

the leaders of the Jewish people in the first century received Jesus. You know, they're seeing him do the signs of the Messiah. They're seeing things, he's acting and doing things in the very person of God. Taking the very Torah and saying, you have heard it said, but I say to you, claiming lordship over the Sabbath, forgiving sins, etc., etc.

But they can't believe in his divinity because they can't get past his humanity. Oh, that's a great analogy. You know? Yeah. They can't see the divine glory coming from him because they can't believe that God gets earwax. Yeah. Or he's got to cut his fingernails. Yeah. You know? Or he gets tired. Yeah. And I think it's the same thing that many people can't see the divine glory shining in the church through her sacraments, through her teaching, through her saints, through her all of this majesty of because they can't get past the fact that it is mediated through broken weak human beings, people that St. Paul himself says are

cracked pots trying to hold the immeasurable grace because it's leak it out. So I would hate to think that people are, that I'm a barrier to the glory of God shining through Mother Church by my own weakness in humanity and sin, but that people can see beyond the humanity and see God at work. Tony Foy, who is actually the director of ministries of Ireland and a patron, says, Bishop Scott, we've talked, we've talked about this. So I don't think we're going to do it again,

but let it be known, Tony, that we have a link in the description. If anybody wants to go check out net ministries in Ireland, go to Ireland for a year. If you love Guinness and hate the sun, you will love the ministries of Ireland. All right, another question. This is a real quick one from a local Bill. He says Bishop mentioned pop and pizza

I'd like to know what pop is soda next question, right? All right Harry says does the bishop think the German synod is leading to a schism or is there still hope that it can be resolved without schism I Would I would be lying if I said that I have any special insight into this. I think it is extremely, extremely problematic that they're proposing things which are contrary to divine revelation. You know, the idea of a synod is supposed to be getting together and together discerning according to clear

biblical principles what God is asking of us. That by its very nature precludes things which are contrary to God's law, to God's Word, to things which are divine revelation. So the moment you begin proposing things which are contrary to what is revealed by God himself, boy, you got real issues here. And I think that this is a real, real serious problem. I don't know what the outcome is going to be. My guess is that they're going to propose these things to Rome, and Rome is obviously going to say no, like they said with blessing of same-sex couples, you know, yes have pastoral accompany Yes treat these people with mercy and with love Respect their human dignity bend over to try and reach them with love and compassion and mercy

Show the true face of the loving Christ to them, but we can't bless something which is contrary to their own good, which is what God's law is. You know, when I used to teach catechism class, or confirmation classes when I was still a pastor, I would say to them, let me explain to you what God's law is, okay? It's not there, some arbitrary rule to you what God's law is, okay? It's not there, some arbitrary rule to make your life miserable.

It's there for a reason. I'm going to teach you that reason. I said, let's all go out to the football field. And they would all go out to the football field. And I would line them up along one goal line. And then I would stand at like the 50-yard line or whatever else. And I would say, now, imagine I said to you, guys I have something great for you over here, something fantastic, something that in

the deepest part of your hearts you ache for and I told you run across that field and I'll give it to you, would you do it? And they're like, oh yeah no problem father, you're cool, you ride a Harley, you're a great guy, yeah we trust you. And I say, great, great. Now what if, what if you start running across that field and some of you get blown to pieces because there's landmines in it, and some of you get wounded desperately because there's barbed wire and razor blades and all sorts of things in that field that are really going to hurt you, and I never bothered to tell you. What do you think of me now?

You should have told us. You should have told us that those things were there. If you really cared about us, you would tell us where we shouldn't step and tell us the proper way to get through that field. I said, now, my friends, you understand God's law. Please don't do this. Please don't do this. It's going to hurt you. It's going to wound you in ways you can't even imagine. It has a

potential to destroy your soul and I love you and I don't want you to do that. And as you go through this world, I'm showing you the way. In fact, I even came among you to walk the way so that you could follow me. And I'm showing you the way. In fact, I even came among you to walk the way so that you could follow me. And I'm there with you every step of the way if you call on me. That's God's law. That's the commandments. That's the beatitudes, the path through the minefield in this world. We're not helping people. If we're pretending that it's okay to do things which are going to hurt them. That's not love. That's not love.

Thank you. Jessica. I know you're from Canada Bishop, but Jessica says how might we those in America prepare as a church or as individuals for the potential terrorism that comes as a result from the overturning of Roe? Wow, it's a really, it's a great question and it's a difficult question. I think that we have to, I think there's a certain amount

of spin that the media is gonna do that there's nothing we can do to prevent. Okay, I just think that's the reality. But being misunderstood, being mislabeled, being misjudged is part of the walk of the Christian. We follow the master who was misjudged, who was misrepresented, who was lied about. I think that we have to avoid the danger of getting mean, spirited, angry, and using the world's own weapons to fight the world. I think we have to fight with the spiritual weapons of light, which is forgiveness and mercy and kindness and goodness and love. Does that mean we just roll over? No. We make a defense, as Peter says.

We make a defense, but we do it with kindness, with gentleness, and with the object to win hearts, not arguments. You can win an argument and lose a soul. We need to be the people who are loving the victims of abortion. We need to be the people who are loving, even our enemies who are promoting this. Because you know what, ultimately they're not my enemy. They're blinded. They're blinded.

There's another enemy behind them. And Jesus died for them. And I need to love them. If I can't have Jesus, if I hate the people he died for, if there's that hatred in my heart. So let's use the means and the message of the gospel. Speak with clarity, speak with firmness, but speak with kindness, with gentleness, and let your life witness to the love of God, which is bigger than all of this.

Pete And please God, the Lord will grant there to be martyrs in this country. Shouldn't this be something for which we rejoice? Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think you go looking for martyrdom. I think Thomas Moore shows us, you know, he did everything he could to avoid it. But if it comes to that, then I'm willing. And I really yeah, well, I the only way I would ever be willing is if the Lord did it in me, because I'm a coward. I tell you that I don't even like getting needles. Right.

But it's it's hard. It's hard to think that that's very hyperbolic. It seems to me that I had Dr. Jennifer Rebecca Morris on the show recently, and she referred to those who are pushing this sexual revolution agenda as a sort of gnostic death cult at war with reality and with the body. And it seems to me that this is the most cherished sacrament of the Gnostic death cult.

And it's interesting that as they're most, if you want to, if you agree with that, or if you don't have to tell me if you do, but that's if that's one way of looking at it, if we begin to tinker with their most cherished of sacraments, then it makes sense to me why there's been a lot of attacks on the on the blessed Eucharist, our most cherished. But again, I love what you said there. The enemy is not Nancy Pelosi. The enemy is not Joe Biden. These are our brothers and sisters who we should pray and fast for and remember who our true enemy is. Maybe that's part of the problem of forgetting about spiritual warfare is you mistake who your

enemy is. Well, that's it. And I think that if we really do see with spiritual eyes, we're going to recognize that ultimately what we're dealing with deep down is a demonic hatred of Christ. And we have to see the people involved in these movements as victims. They're deceived. There is, you know, there is what is St. Paul's term, you know, a blindness which has come upon them. There's a darkness there, and we have to pray and fast them out of this, and love them out of this. Look, it could have been me.

It could have been you. And if we don't start with a fundamental preposition that, but for the grace of God, I am lost, if I don't really understand that I'm a brand pulled from the burning, then I am so filled with pride that there's nothing I can do. It could be me. How can I withhold from someone who is alienated from God the love that I received when I was alienated from God? Amen.

You know, like John of the Cross, right? You love God to the extent that you love, you know, the most hateful person in your life. And no more. And don't kid yourself. You know, so that's a hard call. That's a hard, hard call. That's a martyrdom in itself. And do I do it perfectly? Oh, no.

No, no, no, not at all. But I think it's what Jesus asks of us. And I think we need to step up. Local supporter Nick asks, How can the laity best love their bishops at this time? That's a good question. Oh, pray for us. And I mean, really pray for us. Not just sort of, oh yeah, and bless the bishop.

But I mean, really, really go after them. Bring them to your rosary. Offer it, consecrate them to Jesus through our lady. It's not fun. And I don't know a bishop who's having fun. You are the point at which everybody brings their problems, and nothing you do is ever gonna be good enough for at least a third of the people of God.

So the fear of God has got to dominate. You've got to do what you believe, to really listen to people, to really care about what they have to say, to hear what they're saying and what they're not saying, and make the best decisions you can by the guidance of God. And you're gonna get it right sometimes, you're gonna get it wrong sometimes.

But I think the best thing you can do to support your bishops is pray for them. And you know what, if they do something good, they do something right, send them a letter. Because bishops get stacks of letters of everybody who's angry at them. Very seldom do they get anybody writing them and saying, bishop, I know you agonized over this decision. I didn't even completely agree with you, but thank you for listening to us.

Thank you for trying. Thank you for caring. You know? Yeah, it's a matter of basic human psychology that if you want to see more of a particular behavior, you should praise that behavior. I do that with my kids all the time. Yeah, you know, and if yeah, it's kind of like what Bishop Cordiglione did recently out of love for Nancy Pelosi. I think if if if if if if the if if you want to call them the left if the pro aborts if their shouting is louder than our praise and offers of prayer and thanks, then that's just not helpful, you know? Well, nobody wants to be hated.

Yeah, turns out. Nobody wants to be hated. And I think it's important for bishops to know who supports them as well. It's important to know that they have people that are praying for them. They care about them and They need to hear it because of all they hear is push back push back push back they're human beings Yeah, I don't remember the last time I've prayed for my bishop here in studentville I don't think I ever have you do it every mass. Oh, do I? Yeah, that's true minimum That's a very minimum. I know they did it consciously apparently I didn't

but it's it's good. It's a good reminder that we're told to pray for the Holy Father and we ought to. But what I often tell people, good way to remember is, you know, you pray that first our father and three Hail Marys at the beginning of a rosary. You know, just include include your local bishop. Mm hmm. Yeah, love it. Patron Jay Heal says, What is the status of the Eucharistic letter

relating to worthy reception that was being worked on last winter? I was told by a bishop that it was under heavy attack. What is the best way to address this in your opinion? Thank you. Actually, to be honest, I'm not sure what letter is being referred to. It might be a letter from the American bishops, and of course I'm part of the Canadian bishops conference so I'm not aware of it. With regards to worthy reception, well of course, yeah, I mean I could speak to that more generally and that is very clearly, I think there is, there's a great blessing and gift in the church that people are receiving the Eucharist more often. That is general, I mean in overall speaking that's a good thing. However, what can sometimes come with that is a laissez-faire attitude where we forget that we really do need to be properly prepared. So if we're aware of grave

sin in our lives, we really should go to confession first unless it's an impossibility and it's and possibility and it's a necessity to go or whatever. This could also deal with the idea of politicians who are clearly in scandalous situations contrary to the Church's teaching. Listen, whatever bishops are saying back and forth, or supporting or not supporting, the teaching of the Church is very clear. It's clear in the Catechism, it's clear in the Code of Canon Law. And so unless there is going to be a deliberation

and a change to those two things, I'm a man under obedience. And so I need to uphold those. And as I said earlier, I'm not helping someone if I'm putting them in a position where they're receiving unworthily and thereby hurting themselves, you know. Yeah. So L. Duncan said excited for this interview.

What if anything surprised or concerns Bishop McCaig about practicing Catholics and the way we're living the faith currently the good and the bad? What blind spots or beams in our eyes have you noticed? Thank you. I think we've covered a lot of them. I think the great danger today is because it's so divisive in the church to allow the enemy to distract us from what matters most and to allow a jaded angry spirit

to invade and to take over. I think that's my greatest concern. You know what? Listen, I've read the book. I know how it ends. Stay faithful. You know, as I said earlier, we're in the middle of a clash of kingdoms and there's gonna be weeds and there's gonna be wheat, but it is in the hands of divine providence. The Lord is gonna bring good from all things and if he's permitting something, he's got to plan for something even better to come out of it. It requires fortitude. It requires faith. It requires perseverance. But my focus has got to be the

living and risen Lord. You know what? Every pope, every single pope has got their strengths and weaknesses. My hero, John Paul II, my whole structure of theology, my sense of mission, my spirituality is so rooted in that man. I carry his relic right here on my heart, you know. But he had to trust people too, and he trusted people who told him, no, Massiel's the real deal. And he believed him. He trusted people who told him, oh no, the stuff against McCarrick is nonsense. It's all slander.

He made mistakes too. Do I think that he did something purposely wrong? No, I don't. Obviously I don't. Just to say that even the best saints, even the best popes, even the best vicars of Christ, they're vicars, vicars of Christ, they are not Christ. And I think sometimes we can get that confused. It's Jesus who is the head of the church. It is Jesus that I worship. It is Jesus that from day to day I need to follow and be a disciple of and popes come and popes go Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall

Ideologies come and go I Need to be rooted in what is eternal and what is gonna last forever Because this this isn't all gonna last you know, this is all fading away And what is eternal is what I should be focused on the analogy that came to to mind when you said, I've read the book, I know who wins in the end would be like recording a football game, wanting to go home and watch it from the beginning. And someone tells you that your team won and you're like, I'll watch it anyway. It's not like you're unduly anxious when it seems that your team's losing in the

first quarter. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Good. Amen. OK, let's see who's this. We have a local supporter. Brian Birch says, What is the best way to approach the topic of IVF with a friend who has fallen away Catholic, baptized, but no, no formal catechesis and has children via IVF and a few more still frozen. I want her to come back to the church, but worry if this subject is handled poorly, she will reject the church entirely.

This goes back to what you said about how important it is as a church who wishes to evangelize that we understand who we're evangelizing. Like it will do me no good to go out into the streets of Steubenville and start proclaiming the gospel in Latin, no matter how good I feel about the fact that I'm doing that or if I know that a woman's had a particular something gone wrong in her life maybe she had an abortion well I'm gonna address that with tremendous sensitivity without downplaying the truth like we have to understand where people are right if we want to evangelize them and I think this

is this is where pastoral accompaniment you know I think some people have gotten tired of the word because it's been used in so many strange and I think inappropriate ways. But this is what it genuinely means. Walk alongside someone and love them first. Then their hearts are gonna begin to open to what you might have to say. You preach at somebody before you show them

that you love them, they're gonna shut down right away. Educate yourself, find out what the church says, find out why it's wrong, find out why it's contrary to human dignity. I'd tell people to go check out chastity.com, Jason Everett's ministry. He's done a lot of good work on this. But the first thing you have to do

is pray for them and love them. And that's gonna open hearts. You know, I did a little bit of a study for the Ontario bishops. I hired a couple of people with Catholic Christian Outreach, University Campus Ministry in Canada, to look at a lot of the Pew and others type studies that are being done about when we're losing Catholics

and why in those first, you know, up until university age. And what is working and why is it working? And it was quite surprising to, well, maybe surprising in some ways, not surprising in others. Without knowing the answer, I bet I can guess it. Well, there's three things that became clear. Absolutely.

Do you want to try? Well, I think, honestly, I think that the, and you tell me this is right, maybe I haven't just think of this on the fly, but I think the primary reason people fall away from the faith is they don't feel, they don't feel like they belong for whatever reason. That sounds really trite and superficial. It'd be cooler if I said something like,

they haven't accepted the rigorous truth and the philosophical system of the Catholic Church, but I think it's just like, they want a place to belong. This is why these ideologies are so tempting. You have nailed the number one reason that places that are successful are first places that people feel loved and welcomed. Because when they feel loved and welcomed,

they feel like they matter. And a parish where if you don't show up on Sunday, somebody calls you and say, hey, are you okay? Are you sick? Can I bring you some chicken soup? You know, that makes a difference. But if you're an anonymous number sitting in the pew, so we tend to think, unfortunately, in evangelization is if you believe what we believe and you behave the way we say you're supposed to behave, then you're allowed to belong. But you see, evangelization flips that on its head.

Evangelization is if you are welcomed and loved and cared for, hearts begin to open to the truth. They begin to take seriously what you're saying because you're witnessing it with your lives. And then they begin to bring their lives in order. And that takes time. And that's where walking with someone and being okay when they stumble and fall and loving them back and being with them every

step of the way, that's real care. And by the way, that's the way you should care for yourself too. Like self-hatred, turns out it doesn't actually help. It's not even conducive to holiness. It will push you further and further into hell. It's about bringing all of yourself before the Lord and realizing that you are a delight to him. That even your sins, your most grievous sins, when you repent of them are a delight to Jesus because surely it's delightful for the Savior to save. But for some reason our first suspicion is that Jesus is just angry with us. That's the curse of the fall. Our first instinct is to hide from God. And Jansenism, right? It's the

whole... But the second thing it was, you know, so number one it was love and acceptance, which we do a very poor job at at most places. But where evangelization is successful is where they create community first. CCO, NET, other places. They create relationships. And from that relationship, you can begin to work on something, you begin to build something. The second thing is to explain simply why Jesus matters to you personally.

Now I know, and I've read everything. Yeah, you can't talk about personal relationship without talking about the church because the church mediates Jesus. I know all of that. I understand all that. I understand the rich theology of soteriology and all of this stuff. But you got to start somewhere and you have to start with the foundation. And when people don't understand why Jesus makes a difference to them personally, they don't tend to stick around. So the clear

proclamation, the kerygma as the beginning of the process is needed. And the third thing surprisingly is an experience of God. Which can be as simple as what they feel when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed in a beautiful time of prayer. When people pray with them or over them. A life in the Spirit seminar where they encounter the Holy Spirit in a whole new way. They open their heart to it. Whatever it is, it can take multiple forms. But when those three things are all there, churches tend to grow and evangelization is successful. But if even one of them is missing, it's like that three-legged stool. It tends not to stand. You can balance for a bit, but it's going to go down eventually. Yeah, that's really great. That's really great. No, no one likes feeling like a problem that needs to be solved.

That's why when the Mormons knock at your door, you're not terribly interested in opening because you say even if they've got the best intentions, you just get the sense that there's something about you that they think needs fixing and made me and let's say they're right. Even if they were right, it's still not a good place to be. And we need to take a holistic interest in the people we hang out with that we love. You know, like, what are you afraid of? What are you looking forward to this summer?

What Netflix show are you watching? Or maybe you're not on Netflix because that would be cooler. But what are you into? You know, it's why relational evangelization is so much more effective than anything else than filling stadiums and calling people to repentance and conversion or anything else. Because love, love is authentic. Here's a question from Emma W. Thanks for being a local supporter, Emma. I'll ask the question and I want to offer something before you answer. She says, how can we better live out the common priesthood of our baptism in our daily lives? And what I

wanted to say is, back when I was going to a Byzantine church for three years, I just felt that it was easier to be the priest of my house because of the well. And, and, and maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but this is how I felt. I enjoyed not having to go to daily mass or even feeling the pressure to do that. There wasn't any kind of pressure to go to another hour daily liturgy or an hour and a half daily liturgy, which, you know, they don't really shorten it to like 20 minutes like they do in the West. Right. And so what do we do? Well, we created a altar, sorry, a prayer corner with icons and candles. And so we'd wake up in the morning and we'd

we'd do our chanting and our prostrations. And it was very much a me leading my family in this prayer. I really love that. And there's something I miss about that that and not that I can't do it or shouldn't still do it but I don't know there's something about I love daily mass and I'm sure it's a good thing to do but I like that I didn't have to interrupt my family's day by getting into a car and going somewhere with people who I don't even talk to while I'm there necessarily. I really enjoyed that daily prayer. What am I trying to say? Help me. I think you're trying to say that the family is the first local community where you should be living out the faith. You know, it's the local church, if you will, you know?

And yeah, offering prayer, offering devotion together as a family is, yeah, I mean, it's just so important and it's, and it personalizes it. It's easy to sort of think when you go to Mass, well, that's Father's business up there, but here, in your own home, you're taking ownership of it in a different way. I think that we're supposed to take ownership in the church too, but it's just, it's harder getting there. So, I think finding ways and places where you are making an offering to the Lord. So, when you understand a baptismal priesthood, it's things like not taking the second muffin out of love in a sacrifice. So, it can be acts of small acts of penance. It can be small prayers that we make, that we offer up. Obviously, the devotions, the chaplet, and the rosary, and things like that. Offering your bodies as a living sacrifice.

So, the whole idea of trying to live purely and saying, you know what, this is a great movie but I, you know, I don't need that sex scene in my head, you know. And it's a way that I can make a sacrifice and I can make an offering unto the Lord, you know, or something to that effect. Yeah, so there's just multi-form ways that we can make that living sacrifice of our lives. Okay, so here's a question which you've probably answered. So feel free to give a quick answer or none. He says, this is Mitchell. He says, how should the laity respond if their bishop fails to speak out and defend the faith? Obviously continue to pray for their courage. Maybe not so obviously we say that but Apparently I don't do it much. So there you go. Is there anything else we can do?

I think that ultimately if there's something that's of grave concern That is a matter of conscience for you, then I think you write your shepherd. Don't write him in a complaining, blasting sort of manner, but just say, you know, your excellency, your grace, whatever, this is something that really concerns me and I would just like to bring this to your attention. And I'm open to being corrected, I'm open to being wrong here, but this is the way I'm seeing the way this is going down and it really is concerning and bothering to me We don't get many when you as it well You don't get many but as you when you as a bishop do receive a little like that

Maybe it's once every blue moon like what's your reaction to that sort of humility? It opens my heart immediately when I see that somebody's on side, somebody really cares, and they're not just looking to pick a fight, and they're not just looking to blast me and get it off their chest with a little catharsis, but they actually are, they're concerned. I take it seriously, and I would bring it to my own courier and discuss this and say, okay, what can we do, what should we do, what is God asking us to do? First of all, sometimes you actually have to get

to the truth of the matter because people's perceptions can be wrong. And I can remember letters like this where I wrote back and say, well, actually this is not what happened. Here's what really happened. You know, be willing to look at this again or, you know, there's some great,

there's some great training in a book called Crucial Conversations. I think that we should all be reading that book. It's basic human formation. Yeah. You know, we need to learn how to talk to each other again. I've often talked about the scourge of volantism and I think it's on us and it's really undermining our ability to have real conversations with each other.

What's Volantism? Okay, so I'm on another diatribe here. I hope you don't mind. Go for it. We had what we call the era of faith. So up until the late medieval period, what did that mean? Faith, the era of faith was we looked to divine revelation to tell us the truth about who we are, our place in the universe, how we're to relate to one another, how we're to govern ourselves, what is our final destiny, what is human dignity, all those sorts of things. Then we used our intellect to understand it and our will to carry it out.

When we had disagreements, we sat down, we talked to each other about what does divine revelation really mean and wrestled with it. So that's the era of faith. Then we passed into a period where faith was no longer seen, the enlightenment period, faith was no longer seen as a source of knowledge. So divine revelation is taken out of the picture. So now how do we decide all of those things about what life is about, human dignity, how do we live together?

Reason. Here's a problem though. So we decide by reason and then we live it out through our will. If we don't agree with each other, well then we have to have agreements in society that allow us to coexist with respect for one another and Allow liberty to each other That's why we have things like Charter of Rights and Freedoms and Liberty documents and the the rights of man and all these sorts of documents that are in almost every modern liberal democracy

That govern how we're to treat each other even though we have different worldview different ways of looking at things, different understandings of those fundamental questions of life. So that's what we would do when we disagree. We would sit down and talk about how can we live together even though we disagree about fundamental things. Well, many good philosophers say that we have passed now from the year of faith into the year of reason. Oh, amen. And now we're into the era of the will. Yes.

And what does that mean? The era of the will means what is true is what I want to be true. It's only a baby if I want it to be a baby. Don't confuse me with facts about the fact that married, or that pregnant women don't have two heads and four arms at somebody else's heads and somebody else's arms. Don't confuse me with the facts about DNA or anything else. It's what I want it to be.

My will determines reality. Reality is no longer received from above and understood. It's created by my own will. That's volantism. Here's the problem. When you don't agree with each other, what do you do? You can't go to Divine Revelation. You can't go to Reason. And you can't go to Reason. Smack each other. So what you do end up with is one group has got to control the other. One group has got to overthrow the other and impose themselves on the other.

What does critical race theory say? That very thing. We have to use the ruling class. What is going on with gender ideology? There's no room for encounter. There's no room to talk about this. There's no room to sit down and dialogue. The moment you say it is contrary to faith and reason, you're a bigot.

You're canceled. You're overthrown. So that's the great danger we live in, is it's about the will. It's what I want to be true is true. And as Catholics, we can't accept that. We can't accept that. We have to, and this is what Fratelli Tutti was all about. This is what Francis's

document is all about. Some people accuse him of indifferentism, but that's, if you read the document, it's not what it says. It says we have to live with each other in societies that are ruled by a common pursuit of human dignity, human rights, and the common good. And we have to be able to reason with each other. We have to be able to operate on things like, you know, a charter of rights and freedoms and other things. We can't just impose and destroy and knock down positions that we don't like and cancel people.

That's the thrust of that document and he is 100% absolutely right. Whether you like Francis or don't, that's the truth and that document and he is 100% absolutely right. Whether you like Francis or don't, that's the truth and we need to pursue that. As Catholics, my fear is that we start playing the same game they do. We start playing Volantism too and we start playing the power game. I fear for some groups of integralists who say that the only way the Catholic faith can be lived is if it permeates all society. Well, ultimately, I agree. The good part should, what is true and good and beautiful should flourish. We should see what's true and good and beautiful in society and support it and remove that

which is not true and not good and not beautiful. Absolutely. But we can't impose that on people who don't share our faith. We can't impose that on people who don't share our faith. We can't impose that on people who don't share our worldview. We have to begin by changing hearts. We have to begin by witnessing our faith. This is why you can't catechize and sacramentalize and impose social systems on people who are un-evangelized. That's why first things first. Anyway, I'm rambling here. This is terrific. No, you're not rambling at all. I mean, this is why the Church would say that if I force you to be baptized, it's not a valid baptism.

So I actually cannot impose the faith upon you in that sense. The document Dignitatis Humanae from Vatican II took a lot of heat from some groups that rejected the Council because they said that, you know, it was selling out. It's talking about indifferentism, you know, and we have to impose truth anywhere we can or whatever else, you know. But what the document is essentially saying is that, is, you know, you have to respect human dignity and you have to respect people's freedom of religious liberty. That doesn't say that you don't try to evangelize through witness and word and love. In fact, we should witness with love and with our words, you know. That's the way Paul VI sets it up in Evangelia Nuziandi, right? Live in such a way that people have to ask questions like, why are you like this?

It's so different. it's so beautiful. It's, you care about people, you take care of the poor, you love, you don't speak evil of people, you don't gossip or cheat on your taxes, you don't share your wives. What is it with you people? It's so attractive. And then you can begin to teach them,

you can begin to tell them. It opens hearts. It's not slapping them down with laws that they don't agree with. You can't coerce people into the faith. So the way John Paul, too, said it, which I thought summarizes it beautifully, is we propose the truth, we don't impose the truth. So that's where I would leave it. So I like what you said about you cannot catechize and sacramentalize those who are not evangelized. Yeah.

And it reminded me of Our Lady of Guadalupe, speaking of addressing a people in their own language or in ways they can understand. You've got this Mexican looking woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary. After all those attempts to convert and they weren't, they're evangelized. Now the people's arms are falling off trying to baptize them. Exactly. And even the clothing that she's wearing

is all enculturated. Beautiful. Her skin, everything. It's what a beautiful example of legitimate, authentic enculturation. Yes, yes. We shouldn't be afraid of it. Unless you want to take issue with that Lady Guadalupe.

I don't know too many traditional. Ah, yeah, no, that's not a good idea. I would rather. She's doing a war dance, by the way.pe. I don't know too many traditionalists. I'm not a good idea. I would rather. She's doing a war dance, by the way. Somebody pointed out her one knee is lifted. I know, I saw that. And so it's like, yeah, I'm glad I'm on her team. Peter says, since your excellency is the bishop

of a military ordinariette, do you have any words of encouragement or hope for those in the military that have lost their jobs over the mandates? Especially now that public servants get their jobs back, but the soldiers of chaplains and chaplains do not. It's yeah, boy, it's ugly. Let me just say, first of all, that, you know, the the document that came out of the CDF did encourage people to get the vaccines based on the the evidence that's there from a moral point of view. It was, you know, it was certainly legitimately moral to take the vaccines. However, it did leave that clause that says you can conscientiously object to this, almost as a prophetic stand, right? Mm-hmm. So I supported soldiers and written letters for soldiers

who did not want to take the vaccine. However, in my country, I think the vast majority, those religious exemptions were refused. A few of them were received, but it really depended on the commanding officer of the unit or the base or whatever else. They're taking the advice of the chaplain's branch, etc. But a lot of it depended on whether or not they could accommodate somebody. So if they were in a unit that required people to

be there and they couldn't work know work from home or whatever else so it was it was unevenly applied across the military in Canada and I think that's pretty much the case in the U.S. as well. My hope would be that now Commerheads would prevail. I'm not an expert and I fear to wade into the whole vaccine, whether it's working or not working, sort of debate, because I don't know. I'm reading stuff on the internet just like everybody else and I think you can find pretty much any position you want to find if you're willing to look. So it's very, very difficult. But my hope and my plea is that soldiers would not ultimately lose their jobs, that they would wait it out a little bit. I think some of the evidence about people who have had it,

who are unvaccinated, having natural immunity should come to the forefront. That's my hope that it would come to the forefront. But it's hard to say more than that. Unfortunately, it's not in my competency. I've certainly advocated for those who are unvaccinated and choose to be unvaccinated. Final question.

This is more of a fun question. You ride motorbikes. I ride a Harley Davidson motorcycle. Why is it? I mean, Harley Davidson has a... What kind of cigars do you smoke and what kind of scotch do you drink? You ask it, you really ask it?

Yeah. Well, why are you asking? Because there's certain ones that are just a little bit better. Yeah, yeah, well, Lagavulin 16 and then Southern Drawer Jacobs Ladder. But there's some that are better. So it's like the Cadillac of motorbikes.

I mean, it's the greatest, is it? Oh, I don't know, it's got a history around it. It's got a feel about it. It's got a gravitas, yeah. I've actually ridden about just, I've owned over the course of my lifetime. I fell in love with motorcycles when I was like eight years old when we got our first little Kawasaki KZ90.

I've ridden every kind of bike and I'm joking really. I just think motorcycles are an awful lot of fun if you have them safely. What do you love about riding? It's freedom. It really is just freedom. It's just you get on the road and it's wind therapy. It's wind therapy. You got some good music playing. You got the rumble of the bike

underneath you and you're just whipping down the highway and it's carefree. It's just so very enjoyable. Although it hurts now with the gas prices. Oh my goodness. Is it as dangerous as people say? Well, it can be, but I saw some statistics, excuse me, that would suggest that most of the accidents and most of the fatalities are from younger men with too much testosterone and way too much horsepower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Old farts like me riding Harleys, cruising down the highway at more reasonable speeds. I don't think that's nearly the

group that has to be so much worried. But you got to be cautious because whether you like it or not you do slip into people's blind spots easily. You got to ride a bit paranoid. I've never ridden a motorbike but I've been told that some of these motorbikes are incredibly heavy. A friend of mine was riding a bike, borrowed his friends, looking really cool, thought he was really great, came to a stop sign, started leaning over and the guy had to get someone out of another car to help him lift it back up.

The ultimate indignity, the ultimate indignity. Yes. They're very heavy. Yes. They can be depending on the bike, depending on the size. Yeah, for sure. Very good, very good. Anything else you want to... I just, I'm grateful. I'm always somewhat afraid of doing these kinds of interviews because I fear that I've not explained something well or that I've misled or that I've given impressions that

I didn't mean to give. It's always a danger. I would just say that, listen, I'm a man of the Church, and I think that when we need the answers, we go to the Scriptures, we go to the Catechism. And, you know, I'm an evangelical Catholic as well, which means that I really think we have to stay focused on the Jesus himself. And the enemy can divide and conquer, and we need to remain united. We need to be the body of Christ. More now, more than ever, we need to be a witness to the world of what it means, what it means to love, and what it means that God is a God of love. That doesn't mean soft love, sometimes love can be hard. But we're actually caring about people and seeking their good.

So truth and charity must always act together. Truth without charity can be a very blunt and hurtful weapon. And charity without truth can be very soft and mushy and hurt people as much as it helps. We need them both. Excellent, well thank you for your time. This has been great. God bless you.