Pints With Aquinas - A Priest Explains Exorcisms, Demons, and Spiritual Warfare (Msgr. Charles Pope) | Ep. 600

Episode Date: October 12, 2026

Why did the Church stop talking about hell? Monsignor Charles Pope on demons, exorcism, angels, and the call to repent. Ep. 600 Enjoy these episodes and other exclusive content ad free, one week early with DailyWire+ : https://get.dailywire.com - - - 📚 Resources Mentioned: The Hell There Is by Msgr. Charles Pope: https://tanbooks.com/products/books/the-hell-there-is-an-exploration-of-an-often-rejected-doctrine-of-the-church Theotokos Rosaries: https://dwplus.shop/TheotokosRosaries Truthly 30 Day Free Trial: https://get.truthly.ai/TlbX/MATT30 - - - Today's Sponsors:  Catholic Match: Visit https://CatholicMatch.com or download the app today. It’s free to get started. Charity Mobile: Visit https://charitymobile.com/mattfradd Free phone offer with Code: MATTFRADD Hallow: Make time for God with Hallow’s 21 Days of Prayer Challenge. Pray alongside someone new each day and discover a routine you can carry beyond the challenge. Download Hallow for 3 months free and join at https://Hallow.com/FRADD PreBorn!: Please join PreBorn and The Daily Wire as we help rescue 50,000 more babies' lives. For $28, you can sponsor an ultrasound and help save a baby’s life.  To donate, dial #250 & say the keyword “BABY” or donate securely at https://PreBorn.com/PINTS Quo: Today's episode is brought to you by Quo, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. Try QUO for free + get 20% off your first 6 months at https://Quo.com/PINTS  Seven Weeks Coffee: Go to https://SevenWeeksCoffee.com/PINTS and subscribe to save 15% forever, plus you’ll receive a free gift. Use promo code PINTS for an extra 10% off your first order, bringing your first order savings to 25%, plus that free gift. - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe⁠⁠ 📲 Download the free Daily Wire app today on iPhone, Android, Roku, Apple TV, Samsung, and more. - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠⁠⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠⁠⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠⁠⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch⁠⁠ 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I remember talking to a certain vision. Would you please pray for it? I really feel like demons have jumped my back. I mean, this is so over the top. He said, oh, Charles, demons don't exist. He said that. There's a lot of modern biblical criticism. Jesus didn't really multiply the lows.

He didn't even necessarily rise from the dead. It's no wonder they stopped talking about hell if the demons don't exist. Is there any indication that exorcisms are on the rise? I know the number's up. You kick God to the curb and you create an opening, it's going to be filled, you know. Actual exorcisms are rare, and the most of the rest of them. They need deliverance, but not exorcism. And how do you know they really are, as opposed to just dealing with something psychological?

It's a process of discernment. And, of course, the other thing to remember is there are four preternatural signs. Are you going to tell me what they are? Most people who do get possessed, there's some door they help to open, not always. Okay, what does that mean? What are doors people can open to the demonic? Monsignia Pope, thank you very much for coming on the show. Good to be here, real privilege.

You've been a priest for 38 years, so I'll start with a softball question. What's the state of the church like, as far as you see it? Well, I'm going to say it was tough when I entered the seminary in the 80s. It was really bad. And in a certain sense, worse than it is now, because we didn't even have the catechism published yet. Everything was the Wild West. Anybody could say anything they wanted and say it was Catholic in the spirit of Vatican to or whatever. There was no real go-to point to say, here are our fundamental beliefs put in a modern setting after the council.

That didn't even exist yet. Code of Canon Law had just come out the year before. And so, as I say, it was kind of the Wild West. And there wasn't all that we have today. We didn't have wonderful podcasts and things like this or even magazines. There was a couple of, we had the remnant and we had the wanderer. And if you got those delivered to the seminary, had it come in a plain brown rapper.

Because you'd get in trouble for reading it. But so there really weren't, there wasn't really in much alternative. And so it was just kind of this bland sort of progressivism and kind of a distaste for tradition. It was, you know, considered if you wanted to wear clerics too often, that's bad. Don't pray the rosary out loud in public like this.

You know, this is a lot of weird things that were really... Where did that come from? Yeah, well. Because this feels like a worldwide for them. Yeah. And obviously it was after the council. Yeah. But the council happened within a cultural context as well.

Sure. I think, I blame my own generation. I'm at the very end of the baby boomers. I was born in 1961. I think the baby boomers ended at 64. So we threw a revolution, a cultural revolution. Before it was a religious one, it was a cultural one. It started in Europe right after the war.

And then it came here to America and it really exploded on the scene in the late 60s. I mean, you know, you look at the early 60s. Everyone's wearing suits and ties and everything is very formal. And by the late 60s, it's jeans, long hair and guys and just, you know, it was a total complete change. And what a rapid change in so few years. So I think the whole idea that infected that time was we got to throw off all this old stuff. As the age of Aquarius, they were singing. This is the age of Aquarius, and things are old or bad.

We are come of age. We are the technological age. We gone to the moon and back, you know. And so we're very proud of ourselves. And we kind of thought, hey, in this scientific age, you know, I asked an older priest when I was still a very young priest, why did you all do this? Why did you throw all this stuff away?

He says, well, he says, we were really concerned that, you know, living in a scientific age where universities and knowledge and learning are very, you know, precisely that the church looked old and outdated. And our worst nightmare was that some intellectual leader would walk into a Catholic church and see some old Polish lady fumbling her bees with a veil on. We just had to update for the modern age if the church was going to survive. And so this was kind of the idea, this adjournmento, some people used that term, and bringing the church up to date, opening up the windows of the church.

But we didn't notice that there was a cultural hurricane blowing outside. What was your seminary formation experience like in those conditions? It was rough, really rough. I will say, I went to Mount St. Mary, I'll just know, disclosure. It was considered at that time one of the more conservative because we still wore clerics, not casics, but clerics. And we had a very good spiritual theology and very good moral theology. We had Father Zilla.

Zilla was the great the theologian. He's been there for years and we always call him Godzilla because he still believed in God. But he was very good, very timistic and very helpful to me. But in scripture, we were told most of the things Jesus, he never really said this, he never really did this. And also in Christology and so on. You know, he never said this. He never thought he was God, never knew he was God. He barely existed at all, you know. It was all that Jesus seminar stuff, if our, you know, listeners know what that is. But it's just astonishing the arrogance that we thought we could figure out what he really

said or didn't say. Forgive me, but were you on board with what they were teaching you? No, I was completely shocked by it. I mean, I did, I said, I didn't, I don't think I came to seminary to lose my faith. And so I had some lifelines. I mean, Father Zilla was right there on the. scene, but I also had Ralph Martin, who you interviewed recently, he was, he wrote that magnificent book, Crisis of Truth, and he just laid it all out. And he gave scripture, and he defended

the church's teachings. And I tell you, that, that's, that about saved my, my vocation, because I was really thinking, well, you know, if the church doesn't even believe these things anymore, what am I doing here, you know? And I didn't have good, I didn't have good catechesis. I was, you know, the felt banner, a 1970s teenager, you know. And so I couldn't probably have told you all 10 commandments when I walked in. I could have come up with most of them, but maybe not all of them. That's how poor my own catechises was. But I have to say, I was utterly shocked with some of the things that were being said to me.

And I would talk to Father Zilla, and I got Ralph Martin's book. Someone recommended that. And also, there was a Father Francis Martin, not James. Father Francis, may he rest in peace. He was a wonderful, great priest, solid, great biblical scholar. knew all, he knew like seven or eight languages, you know, including Aramaic and ancient Greek and Hebrew, which is great if you're going to be, you know. And so those were my lifelines, you know, they really, I would say those men saved my vocation. I would also say, though, that when I went there, I was sort of the vanguard, maybe the, of just the first initial wave of these John Paul II priest.

I ended the seminar in 84, and I was already inspired by John Paul, and he was holding the line, like a good Pope should do, holding the line and saying, now look, you know, and he's... Rough time to be Holy Father, I'm sure. Sure, yeah, I'm a terrible. But all that said, now, you asked about this earlier, what's the condition of the church today? I think we've gone backwards in a lot of ways up to those bad old days,

but we have things like this podcast. We have the catechism. We have, you know, a canon law, which is still kind of a moving target, but we have basic ways that Catholics can find out. In fact, I was listening recently to Eric Salmons. Yeah, he's great. And he made a very, I think, good observation

that most young adults today, who are practicing Catholics. And we have to admit that's about 10% of young adults. But the ones who come are very traditional, and they love the church and the Lord. And the ones who come to my church, along lines for the confessional, they come to adoration,

much more pious than I ever was, even at their age, you know. But that said, I think, who we have alternatives. He noted, though, that most young adults aren't really plugged into a parish. They get most of their awareness of the faith from the internet,

from some social media and, you know, some of the things like what you're doing, and I think we've got to keep that up. It's harder for me as a pastor, though, because, you know, a pastor wants to kind of have a stable flock. Yes. But young adults come and go very quickly, and they don't come every Sunday to the same church. But that said, I mean, we have to adjust. I think we, but I would like to think that people would come and join a parish, and this is my

parish, and I'm going to stay here for decades. But that's just not the lives people are living. It's harder to pastor a parish now. Who are my leaders? How can I develop them and count on them to be here three years from now? So it's harder. But I will say, I think he's, Eric Salmons is on to something there when he says that. And that's why I think today is things are bad.

And we can talk about why in a minute. But they're not, at least there's option. Yeah. There's other ways for people to get information about the faith. Well, I want to thank you sincerely for wearing. your cassock. And I don't judge any priest who doesn't. That's not the point. But I do want to invite those priests listening to please wear your casic because as a layman, when I see you, if I don't know who you are, I know that you're serious about your vocation. And as a sinner,

that's what I need you to be. Yeah. I know I can trust you with my confession. Right. I can bring the state of my soul to you. And there's just a trust there. And so was that a choice you made at some point and that you encourage other priests to do? Yeah, I don't know why. I always had a traditional bent. I think it was from my grandmother. She always said she missed the old Latin Mass, and they'd recivated her church.

She was a beautiful marble altars, and they just jackhammered them and put up just, you know, junk. But so she was just heartbroken. And I guess I picked that up from her. She always prayed her beads, and I said, I got to pray the rosary too. I love my grandmother. But anyway, she was, I think I got some of that.

And I noticed that, you know, all the old pictures, the priest wore the long robes. And I did ask, again, I asked a priest, why did you all get rid of the casting? And I would ask a lot of these questions. And I wasn't trying to be provocative. I wondered what was on their mind? Yeah. I mean, could we really call this a success? I mean, churches are emptying, you know?

Yeah. But they said, well, you got to remember, they sewed us into those things when we went into the seminary. and they were foul smelling their perspiration odors and missing buttons and food stains and, you know, anything you can imagine and we just thought of them as filthy rags. And they even made us play volleyball and basketball wearing casics.

And that might be a little excessive. There could be some time to get into exercise clothes and perhaps have some time where you're, I know, maybe hanging up to let it air out. But I love the casick. For me, well, I'll be honest, the cassock hides a multitude. of sins. And I'm kind of...

Well, that too, yeah. But that said, I mean, it's comfortable, it's loose fitting, it breathes, it's airy. Especially if people see in the hot weather, in that terrible way, it's just the opposite. You were a sign of contradiction, you know, which is what I want to see. That's what I want to see. Because when I grew up, of course, in the 80s and 90s, I remember a priest came into our little diocese of Port Piri, his name was Father Paul Crotty, and he was the first priest I had ever seen, not where the cassock, but where the collar.

Yeah, oh my. And I was so grateful even for that witness. Yeah, yeah. But to your point that there was all this shedding off of the apparent baggage that apparently separated you from me. Right. But I want you separated from me. Like, I actually want a father. Yeah.

And I'd like, it's like if you're, it's like if a father smokes marijuana with his kids to be cool. No child needs that. And I, and I, as your spiritual son, I need a priest to act like fathers. Yeah. Maybe it's that there's a level of responsibility that a priest doesn't believe himself capable of reaching and that he's afraid of reaching that causes him to say, ah, don't call me father. And I'm not going to, but we don't need them. Please, please aspire. No, I think you're right about that.

And once again, I noted that coming up, that Catholics appreciated when priest even just like you say, war clerics, let alone the cassock. and yeah, they want us to be out there be visible. We have religious sisters in my convent, and they had these beautiful habits they wear, and they walk through the neighborhood. I try to join them. I'm the ugly duckling that goes along, but we pray the rosary going around Lincoln Park,

and the people are like, you know, some people stop and take pictures. They're like, oh, this is something different. And isn't true that after the council, when certain religious sisters threw away the habits, those were the ones that died. They died. And it's not just because of the habits, but casting it off is illustrative of what else they were.

Yeah. It's a big sign. But I will say that getting back to, you know, the state of the church today. Yeah. I'm very alarmed. I have to say, we'll go back about 14, maybe 15 years ago. I was out pruning the roses in front of the rectory. And I thought to myself, Benedict was the Pope.

at the time. And I said, you know, I think I understand now, Lord, which you've been up to. You know, you've been pruning the church. And but I was feeling pretty good about the church at that moment. I said, you know, most of the young priests are very solid. They're not rebels. You know, they love the teachings. They want to be good priest and ambassadors of the truth. Many of our younger, newer bishops were very solid men as well. And, you know, I said, I hope, I hope, Lord, maybe the, maybe we're fine again to get some springtime. And then two weeks later, lightning struck the Vatican and Benedict resigned.

And we went to the turmoil. And I was deeply saddened that he chose to do that. And I remember what John Paul said. They said, were you saddened, sorry to cut you off. Were you saddened at the time or just retrospect? No, I was at the time. In fact, I was kind of furious. Because I guess I was, I remember what John Paul had said.

He said, what they asked him, well, why don't you resign? I mean, look at you, you're in terrible shape. Yeah. Because Jesus didn't come down from the cross. That's what he said. Oh, wow. And that was my thinking. And I can understand if someone is in, you know, semi-comatose or something,

they may have to have some method of, you know, retiring him and bringing a new Pope on board. But, you know, I didn't, I just didn't understand why he did that. And, and of course, we had a tough time with Francis. I'm just going to say it, you know. We had a tough, tough, those were the toughest. 13 years in my priesthood. Years ago, a husband and a wife in Lithuania sent me one of their handmade rosaries, and I was so struck by it, the weight, the quality, the care in every detail. It was seriously the most

beautiful rosary I'd ever seen. Now, in collaboration with Theotokos Rosaries, I'm making two of their hand-crafted rosaries available to you over at dailywire.com slash shop. Italian olive wood, gold, plated brass, microbreed cord built for a life. time of prayer, each one made by hand in Lithuania. These are not just beautiful rosaries. They can be family heirlooms that you would pass down. Use for personal devotion. You could also give them as a wedding gift, ordination gift, confirmation gift, or for graduation. Now the first batch sold out right away. So, pre-order yours now at dailywire.com slash shop before the next batch is gone. That's dailywire.com slash shop. I've always thought it's, and maybe I'm wrong, but it's,

it's always seemed to me that it's better just to be very straightforward about how tough those years were as opposed to pretending to the world that everything was great. People aren't idiots. They can see things aren't great. And it seems to me that in acknowledging that they weren't great, you're doing two things, you're being honest. And you're also in a roundabout way teaching them or informing them that the Catholic Church never taught that every pope would be a saint and a scholar. No, no, indeed. We know it from our history.

That's not been the case. We've had some very saintly popes and some very wicked ones, you know. I will say, though, the difference today is that if the pope sneezes, the entire world knows about it. He's much more visible today. Some of those wicked popes, the Medici's and so on, where, you know, people, Rome was far away. We are in the mountains, Ultramont, ultramontents. And so you have the, but now the problem is that if, A pope is struggling in some way,

with instant knowledge around the earth. And if a pope just makes a minor utterance about something, it's like, you know. And I've been of the mind. This goes back to even John Paul and certainly Benedict and then certainly Francis, that popes should speak a lot less. Being a little opinionated here, but I speak a lot, but I'm a priest.

But the reason I say that is that I think popes have a sacred trust. with God's people, because it says in the Catechism and the Second Vatican Council that Catholics should give religious assent of the mind and heart, even to non-infallible teachings of the Pope. Well, that means the Pope better be pretty careful about what he says, because just because he has an opinion about a soccer team or the weather or the climate or the whatever doesn't mean this is a matter of faith and morals. And lay people shouldn't have to figure all that out. Pops, I think, have to be therefore very, very careful to vet everything they say. And I don't want to have just a paper.

You know, he's up there reading a paper that's been pre-approved, but there's just too much exposure. And he's asked to be commenting on all kinds of things that, well, his opinions really know better than others about certain political issues here, in that country or there. I do want the Pope to be a moral leader. And to speak out about when we go to war and things like that, I don't expect the Pope to support wars, just knee-jerk.

But on the other hand, I don't expect pop to start to discard the just war doctrine, which is very important. It's all we've got. I think it's probably poorly named. You know, the just war doctrine should probably be named the limitation of war doctrine. That's right. It's not an excuse to go to war. It's meant to limit it.

Yeah, it's trying to say, you better meet some of these criteria. And once you're in war, you better observe. And I think that's what we've got. Now, it's not perfect. wars comes right out of hell. I mean, we're dealing with a very bad situation. However, at least there's something to frame it up. And I think, by the way, that we've actually had a lot of influence in modern warfare with our just war doctrine.

All this very careful targeting of bombs now. You know, World War II, we just carpet bombed all of Dresden and we firebomb Tokyo and, of course, then the atom bomb. Total, no discrimination between combatants and non. It was a just war to get into, but the way it was fought, I'm afraid, both on both sides, of course, but it was pretty miserable. But all these years of bringing the just war doctrine back to the four, I think it's helped in our own military. We try, and all of us smart bombs aren't perfect, but the point is at least we're thinking that way. You know, it sounds like just wipe them all out. They all want to die.

We were very careful to say, well, the leader seems to be in this building. Yes. And so I think it's still active and useful. And Francis just wanted to have nothing. He wanted to just get rid of it all together. He was very critical of it. And, you know, Pope Leo has been a little bit that way too. And so all I'll say is that I think sometimes though popes get drawn into these things.

And maybe Pope should be less out there. Kind of the Pope's rock star. He sort of was championed by John Paul. He started with Paul the 6th because, man, goodness gracious, the Pope's coming to America. Unheard of. And then he went to the United Nations. Then he celebrated Mass and Shea Stadium. And this was like unheard of.

I mean, that was like the completely different thing. And then John Paul, who came, you know, he built on that. And I give him credit. I mean, I think he reached a lot of people. But on the other hand, I don't think every pope has that gift or that stamina. And he didn't have that stamina at the end. And I think that's what I think also affected Benedict a great deal, that he had to sort of be out there and to make all these travels and journeys.

Yeah. You know. I'd say John Paul II was responsible for my conversion in the sense that it was at World Youth Day in the year 2000 as a 17-year-old punk agnostic kid who was only going for a free trip to Rome. It was there that I encountered real Catholic men and women who loved Jesus Christ in the church. And it was like there were aliens. I had no idea what was going on. No, he was a father.

Yeah. He was a father. Yeah. And I think we have to, it's always to say, I'm being a little opinionate about the popes. I don't run a perfect parish. I want him to get that disclaimer. I mean, it's easy for me to complain about a bishop or a pope and how they run

this or don't run that. I don't do everything perfectly either. But I do think that with the popes, the importance, maybe toned down a little bit on all the appearances. And there was a bishop who recently wrote that letter concerning how the endless schedule of meetings that the Pope has every day at the Vatican. Every head of state, every, I don't know, some rock star, I forget what her name was, some punk rock star. And he's meets with this parade of people and he has to meet with them and go through. I'm far too introverted for that father.

If I was asked to be Pope, I would be like, here's the schedule. And we'd people for 10 minutes a day, all of them. Yeah, all of them, amen. Except for Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays and Mondays. On Wednesdays for 10 minutes. Good for you. No, and as I say, I don't know to what degree the popes get roped into that. Yeah.

I just wonder if maybe, I think that, I forget the name of the bishop. I think he was from the Netherlands, but he suggested that maybe popes should be less exposed and popes should be less required to meet with every single head of state about every single thing and maybe spend more time, have more time to pray and study. And I want to know what happens to the gifts everybody brings the Holy Father. Yeah. Like is there a bin that they're going to? Yeah.

But I suppose, yeah. Some of them have to sort of. I mean, some of the things that are given are worth saving. Yeah. And then you've also got Bono's sunglasses. Yeah. Like, do I have to keep these? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you have a flea market? Vatican flea market, you know. It's hard, right? Because you want to be a realist about what's going on. Uh, we certainly don't.

want to be naive. So it's good, I think, to say what's good and what's bad. It seems to me what's good is I do think I'm seeing an assurgeance of young people joining the church. Yeah, right. Like I went to adoration last night at the cathedral here. And it was like a college crowd. It's great.

Went to Holy Mass this morning. I would say the median age was maybe 25. That's great. And there was about 50 people there. Oh, you're right. And the people I see, the young people I see today being serious about the faith are not the kind of people who are like, what if women became priests? Yeah, right. What if sodomy was actually okay and we just misunderstood this for 2,000 years?

That's not happening. No, that's right. Now it is happening from certain prelates, it seems to me. It's very sad, yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, they're going to answer to God. If they don't represent the teachings of Scripture and of the church, you know, well, we're going through a section in the Brewery night right now, the Liturgy of the Hours. by St. Augustine on his meditation on wicked shepherds.

Yeah. What does he say? Well, he basically says they're going to be punished the most of all. And, you know, they will answer to God. And he warns, you know, how, and God, you know, he just quotes, you know, all through his, you know, Jeremiah and Isaiah, but also Zephaniah, all these who just be, just, were just angry at the shepherds especially. This might be unfair. So I'll say it.

and then you can temper it for me if you think it necessary. But I sometimes get the impression, a certain among older clergy or bishops, not from all of them. There's a lot of terrific ones. I just mean when I get this impression occasionally, it's that they want a church where the only doctrine is, doctrine isn't that important and God likes everybody and nothing really matters. That's the, is that?

Yeah. And I mentioned earlier that we got very horizontal. And it's all that we got to reach people and we do. You were just talking about a good example. But I would say that, no, what we have to do is magnify the Lord. Amen. The church's first work is to worship God and to just drive back demons when we do it, you know. Liturgy is not just this sort of ritual to go through.

I mean, you ring a church bell that's consecrated. Demons hate that stuff. Really? You, you know, you celebrate a liturgy. You push back the darkness. I mean, we have to get back into the understanding that we do benefit. But it's main reason. I love the way Thomas puts it in the suma,

that the obligation to worship God, he doesn't tuck it under where you might think as a treatise on charity or faith. He trucks it under the one on justice. Yes. We owe God worship. He's been too good. Everything we have is from him.

He is God. He is the Lord. He is not just deserving, he and worthy, but he is to be praised. And anything else is a grave injustice. And that's where we have to get back to thinking that I'm here. first and foremost to worship God.

And so, well, I don't like that choir. Or I don't like, you know, we're all kind of wrapped up in those little things. And, of course, the way liturgy has been conducted, and I want to emphasize, this is not intrinsic. It doesn't have to be intrinsic to the new mass. But the priest facing the people kind of a closed circle, which is really not a good look when you think about it. It's kind of effeminate.

Yeah, and I think it's also, yeah, the idea of the priest's, standing before the Lord, facing the Lord with the people and for them, and going up to the altar of God. I want to make it clear that I'm not condemning the priest facing the people. I'm just saying this idea of the closed circle. And there's this obsession in Catholic music about we, the gathered people. We are here. We are gathered. We are one. We are, we are, we are, you know, the light of the world. We are, you know. You'd think we'd already have enough of ourselves. Why do we need to keep talking about ourselves? I know where that came from. But I'll get to that in a second if we get back to it. But you know, I have a parish where gospel music is used for our main liturgy.

And people say, well, gospel music in the Catholic church, I don't know. Well, I will say this though in defense of gospel music, it's all about God. What God is doing, what God has done, God. Whereas so much modern Catholic music is just a sort of tedious reflection. There was a book by Thomas Day, Why Catholics Can't Sing.

And he described much of modern Catholic liturgy as the aware, gathered community celebrating itself. Yes, yes. It's very horizontal. Okay, this is a question. It's an uncomfortable question for all the Catholic singles out there. Is your future spouse actually impossible to find, or have you created a job description? no human being could possibly satisfy. Must be holy, good, kind, excellent.

Open to children, obviously, six foot eight, plays exactly three approved musical instruments, shares all 12 of my hobbies, has the correct haircut, loves my favorite obscure saint, and photographs perfectly from every single angle. Okay, like at that point, maybe you've gone too far. Look, dating requires discernment, but discernment means knowing the difference, between what actually matters and what doesn't. Shared faith matters, yes, character matters, yes, virtue matters, your views on marriage, children, the direction of your life matter, yes, enormously.

Whether somebody checks every incidental box on your list, maybe give them a chance. That's one reason. Catholic match is such a useful place to start. You're already in a community of singles who share the Catholic faith and are looking for something serious, ultimately sacramental marriage. and Catholic Match isn't just interested in matching people. It builds tools meant to move you toward an actual date. Intentional messaging, private photo sharing, even in-app video chat,

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So there are plenty of ways to support the pro-life movement that require something from you. Your time, your money, showing up, volunteering. The one I'm about to suggest is ridiculously easy. Change who sends you your phone bill. And I'm talking about Charity Mobile. With Charity Mobile, that ordinary expense can help. help support the culture of life. They're proudly pro-life and every month a percentage of what you pay goes directly to a pro-life pro-family charity that you actually get to choose. So over the last 30 years, that's added up to millions of dollars donated, which is awesome. And the thing is you still get what you actually want from a wireless company. You're going to get nationwide coverage, no contracts, plans starting under $50 before taxes and fees. They even have customers. service staffed by pro-life Americans. So it seems to me this is a pretty straightforward thing, straightforward question would be if you're going to pay someone for phone service anyway,

who would you rather support? Go check out, charitymobile.com slash Matt Frad. Use promo code Matt Frad for a free phone with every new line plus free activation and free shipping. That's charitymobile.com slash Matt Frad. You had mentioned demons earlier, and I know you've been involved in deliverance ministry it seems to me that C.S. Lewis was right. Okay. We can we can fall into the trap of trying to find demons under every rock. But it seems to me that if, yeah, if you're 20 or older, that's not your problem. Like your problem is that you think that the demonic is a superstition. There is no spiritual warfare. There is no hell. In your experience, yeah. I can get very personal to begin with. In my mid-30s, I basically had a, a nervous breakdown. I was a young priest, maybe four years ordained, and the diocese asked me to take a very difficult parish as pastor. I mean, there was no money. It was insane. I mean, you're trying to keep a school open that nobody could afford. So I could go on and but I was still in the kind of

young man. I can do this. I can control everything. And so I went in there thinking, I had to fix it all. And I had a nervous breakdown. They had to peel me off the ceiling. And after a week or so, in the weekend evaluation, shall we say, in the mental hospital, or the hospital psych ward. I came forth, and I did outpatient work, but I have to say, I remember talking to a certain bishop, not my own ordinary, but it was a bishop that I, and he said, I said, would you please pray for it? I really feel like demons have jumped my back. I mean, this is so over the top. I feel humility, anger, I can't sleep, and I just went through terrible, terrible time. And I would fall asleep maybe for an hour and wake up in a panic.

I mean, this, that wasn't, that's not normal. I mean, that's way over the topic. People get anxious, that's normal. But I tell you, and I just knew that this was so over the top. And nobody really talked about demons much in those days. How did the bishop respond to you? Oh, Charles, he says demons don't exist. He said that.

Yeah, yeah. What are you doing as an allegory? Yeah, I know, yeah. Jesus never got that memo. He cast out allegories? Or when he was, tempted in the desert by an allegory. Anyway, but you see the idea.

I think, unfortunately, that took hold. There's a lot of modern biblical criticism that takes a very worldly view of scripture. Miracles didn't really happen. Jesus didn't really multiply the lows. He got them to share. You know, that kind of explanation for things, which, I mean, he didn't even necessarily really rise from the dead. He lived on in their memory.

if there's no miracles and there's no I mean what do I'm doing around here you know let's get out of here a lot of faces need slapping yeah but anyway I was really shocked and the bishop said that he was an otherwise fairly orthodox it's no wonder it's no wonder bishops well again I want to make it clear I'm not talking about the majority I'm just I know very many good bishops right but it's no wonder they stopped talking about hell yeah if the demons don't exist Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, all of these things were just medieval things, you know, that bewitched people and they're fear-based and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, and, you know, I wrote that book on hell. I mean, trying to get us back to a biblical and Christ-centered understanding of it. And so I wrote a whole book on the topic. Yeah, we have it right here. It's called The Hell There Is. We'll put a link in the description below. Thank you for writing. Yeah, and my main goal in that was to try to get people to understand that hell doesn't exist because of some mean, angry God that wants to cast people into a fiery pit.

But rather, hell exists because God is deeply reverential of human freedom. I mean, I wouldn't be. I wouldn't trust human beings for a minute with freedom. But he gave us freedom because he wants sons and daughters who love him. And you can't love without freedom. And so I think God made us free. And he said, really, it's honestly, the choice really is yours. Yes.

And therefore, you know, but Father, but Father, everybody wants to go to heaven. They want to go to a self-designed heaven. Ah. Well, there'll be a golf course or whatever. And, you know, that's not the real heaven. The real heaven is the kingdom of God and all of his fullness. It has a lot of values, for example, that people today don't like. For example, love your enemy.

Forgive. Very unpopular. We have a grievance culture. I'm a victim. I must destroy people who are oppressing me. I must overwhelm them or something. And so this is, or, you know, chastity. Chast, please.

I mean, and this is what the kingdom of heaven is really about. And the esteem of these things and the magnificence. the magnificence of God being at the center, not me, and all of that kind of stuff. And you're just, see, what I'm trying to say is that, no, not everybody does want heaven. And that's why there's a hell. Because to think that we're going to go all our life saying,

I don't want to forgive my enemy, I don't kill my enemy. I want, you know, I want to, you know, destroy them politically and every other way I can. And I, you know, I don't want to forgive. You know, I want justice. I want vengeance. And I certainly don't want chastity. And to think that suddenly you're going to show.

but the purlegation say, how beautiful, let me in. Right. It's just not the way we're built. And God, as a gentleman, won't lobotomize us and brainwash us like a twisted boyfriend. Right. You're going to be with me and you're going to like it. And beatings will continue until morale improves. But anyway, I think that it's, so I was trying to base it on help people to kind of recast the question.

That is actually deeply respectful, God, who, I mean, the thing. God of the whole universe made me free to say no to him. Wow, I wouldn't have done that, you know. But nevertheless, that's where it is. And the other thing I wanted to say is that, you know, people think, oh, it's the funniest story I have in the book. There was a, I was preaching one Sunday. It was that Sunday that the gospel was the road to damnation is wide, many follow it,

how narrow the road to salvation, how few there are. So I preached on both heaven and hell that morning. And it came out of mass and a woman came to the, to me. and said, Father, I did not hear the Jesus I know in your words today. And I said, but I was quoting him. And she said, oh, we know he never really said that. You see, she was, she had been studying the Bible, you know, doing Bible studies, you know, that were modernist. But that said, you know, and I said, well, you know, now here's the thing, though, man, you know,

21 of the 38 parables are about this topic. You know, I mean, Jesus talked about it a lot, you know. There's a wise and the versions, the foolish versions, those on the right, those in the left, those who here come blessed to my father, those who hear depart from me, there are those, there's the wheat and the tears, you know, the sheep and the goat, there's all of these parables, the basic who says, you've got a decision to make. And you got to realize Jesus is trying to illustrate. My favorite one really is the prodigal son.

Most people miss that. It's not everything about the first son. back with the father. Hallelujah. Glory. But it's the second son who's openly respectful, but doesn't really love his father, doesn't know his father, he's off in the distance. And when he finds out that his father is welcome back to that son of yours, not a brother of mine, he's furious and won't even go into the feast. And there's this picture of the father pleading for him to come into the feast.

We have to celebrate. He's no, you never even gave me a kid goat and on and on a ghost. And the story just, the parable just ends. Because you have to finish it and I have to finish it. Am I willing to go into the party, into heaven, on God's terms or not? Some people prefer to stay outside and brood. Another funny little parable story. There was a woman who came to me when I was a very young priest, my first assignment. And she says, Father, the neighborhood is changing.

You know, kind of code language there. I said, okay, tell me more. Well, you know, black people are moving in. And I said, what are we going to do about that, Father? I said, how about go and knock on their door and invite them to come to church? And she was like, and she says, Father, I don't like black people. I'm afraid of them. And I'm saying, I appreciate your honesty.

But you won't be happy in heaven. Easy where this is going. Oh, I'll be happy. I pray the rosary every day and I'll be with Jesus and Mary. I know, but there's black people in heaven. And she was so mad. She didn't talk to me for two. weeks. But I have to say to her credit, she somehow came around. She said, you know, in our school

by the time I left there was mostly African American children. And she was in there as a tutor, helping them get through math. And just, you know, she got a lot of them into higher, you know, to just lots of great gifts. So there was a conversion there, you know. But the point is that we think that everybody wants what God is offering. And they don't. And even most of us struggle at some level we're very worldly. Jesus sums it up. He says, look, here's the nature of the judgment. This is from John 3. Here's the nature of the judgment that the light has come into the world, but many prefer the darkness. And that word that's translated, prefer, is Agape. Their highest love is reserved for the things of the world and the darkness. They don't really want the light.

So that prefer is in the Greek is love. They love. Yeah, they had their highest love. love for. Wow, wow. Yeah. And so, you know, it helps to spell it out a little for us. And it's still a mystery. Yeah. And people say, well, why is it eternal and so on? Again, it's not about God again. It's about us. There is a mystery, but it's, most of us experience that I'm 65 now. It gets harder to change as we get older. But at a certain point, our decisions kind of begin to add up. There's an old saying, so a thought, reap a deed. So a deed, reap a habit. So a habit, reap a character. So a character and reap a destiny. And it all just begins.

with those thoughts that produce deeds and then habits. And it gets harder and harder to change. Now, I don't mean to say they're no deathbed conversions, but they're not as common as people think. I've been a priest for a long time, and I'm surprised how often I go to somebody who's actively dying, and they just don't really, I didn't kill anybody thought.

Oh. And so it's just astonishing to me, you know, and we generally don't get lots of emergency calls like that. And that sort of surprised me. thought there'd be a lot more of those deathbed conversions. But you know, you go on a certain path long enough, it's going to get harder and harder to change. And, you know, we, we are, our ability to rationalize is horrible, horribly high. It's horrible. But. And one way to see that is we all know someone in our life who is a pain in the behind, everyone around them, and they

cannot see it. And that always makes me think, well, how sure am I that I'm not that? guy to my wife, to my children. Am I so sure? Now, I'm not hard to live with, like, some of you. Exactly. Yeah, no, I, yes. And we're so slow to apologize. Yeah, right. You know, how many times in my marriage was it more important to me that I showed my wife that here's why I was, you see, why technically I had to, instead of taking the opposite and just being like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. And not having to fight for my point. Yeah, right. Like the arrogance. Yeah, yeah. And if I do that with a beautiful woman named Cameron. If I learn to do that, if that's part of my character, then I'm likely to do that with the good God. You're right? Yeah, we can be very

ugly. We don't like to think of it, but yeah, we can be very, very ugly and opinionated. And I'm not opinionated, by the way. I'm pretty opinionated by that. That's why I have so little to say here. But anyway, the point I think being with the book on hell was to just try to recast it, that it really is not about how mean God is. It's about how hard-hearted and we can turn away. It's done very gradually. And God has to take a lot of things into consideration when he judges us. I mean, we're not going to be simplistic about, you know, but at the end of the day, it exists. You get what you want. And Jesus suggested that sadly most people prefer the darkness. And this is what we see in our seems to be, at least in Fatima. Yeah. I mean, and this is the other

thing. We make excuses for not teaching children about hell and the Blessed Virgin had took them on a tour. Wow. I heard this that up in Canada and I don't know if it's still true, but they had actually said in the Catholic schools of Canada that you couldn't do the oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, you know, the fatten. I think that is correct. And they said it might scare the children. Yes, I believe that's correct. So that's kind of silly. See, the beautiful thing is we can finally acknowledge how bad we are. Yeah. When we experience and know about the beautiful love of God.

Oh, yeah. That God doesn't love us collectively the way someone who owns bees loves his beehive. Yeah. He knows us and loves us. Yeah, he even likes us. And so once you know that, it's almost like he can go, oh. Yeah. So I can put down my gut and I can finally acknowledge how wicked I am and experience the most.

But it's like before I know that, I can't let you know how wicked I am because I need. to be loved. My deepest desire is to be loved and rightly so. My biggest fear is to be rejected. Yes. Yeah. And it should be. That is your right to fear that. But when you get, when you get to accept the love of the God of your universe. But you're singing my tune there. Another thing I tried to say is especially at the end of my book. Look, if you don't know the bad news, the good news is no news. It means nothing. So yes, there is bad news. People, there is a hell and people go there. Sadly, probably in bigger numbers than we want to admit today. But that said, go before the crucifix and say,

oh, I'm so glad you love me and you did that for me. And to be utterly astonished at the awesome, glorious, wonderful love and mercy and grace of Jesus Christ who died for us for me. He's the son of God. He's God himself. And he died for me. And then suddenly, you know, you get the gift of tears and you start to weep for your sins,

but you also weep for joy. And that's, see, there's not many joyful Christians today. either. Oh, we're going to get rid of hell. But there's not. Yeah, so where's the joy? So, well, it's in the bag, you know. And then again, why bother then if everything's in the bag? Most people think, oh, everyone's basically going to go. We need to have Hitler down there. We always need Hitler around. But basically, everybody's going to go to heaven. Then why bother going to church? Why bother praying? Why read scripture? Who needs sacraments? Everything kind of just, and gee, I wonder why our churches are so empty. This occurred to me recently when I realized that the word

narcissism had become the new buzzword. And I thought, I bet if I go onto YouTube, there will be zero videos about overcoming my own narcissism. And so, of course, I type it in it. It's all about your mom, your sister, your boss, your husband. You're not you. You're fine. You're great.

You're not responsible. Your mother dropped you on your head when you were two. Yeah, it's her fault. It's her fault, right. Let me ask you this, because I know that you interact with a lot of people, including exorcists. Are exorcism still happening today? Is there demonic activity on the rise? Or is this just the imagination of hyper-pious priests and Catholics?

Well, or both. Okay, let's maybe give some, you know, some parameters. First of all, we actual exorcisms are rare. Now, when I say rare, I mean statistically rare. They are going on. There's probably, you know, thousands and thousands of exorcisms going on throughout the world. But the vast majority of people who report, I think I've got a demon, I think they're not possessed. There are certainly being, there's three forms of, I mean, demonic incursions, you probably know.

Temptation, all of us got that one. But also oppression. And that's like when I was in my 30s. Most people go through a certain point in their life where something's like really over the top here. I mean, this isn't just I'm having a bad mood or something. so that they feel very heavily beset by demons, whether emotionally, sometimes even physically, you know, their room is trashed or they're being beaten up. That's not the mean they're possessed. An actual possession where a demon is able to possess the lower faculties of a person and speak and act through them.

That's rare, but it does occur. And that is what the major right of extracism is reserved for. for the oppression and other just kind of temptations and things that we would use deliverance prayers, which are not the major right of exorcism. Some of them have some pretty tough things to say to the demon. Hey, get lost. You know, I mean, it's, you know, in fact, frankly,

the old baptismal right has some really big exhortesio, reconnoisseumoske sentenium to him diabolet, you know, recognize your son as, oh, you diabolical one, and leave this child of God who has been clenital. for Christ. You know, there were four of them and they were strong. So even though those aren't major exorcisms, they have, they have strong wording. So I don't want to say that deliverance praying has a completely different tenor to it, but actual possession, let's say 150 or 200 people approach the diocese and see, I think I'm possessed. You're probably going to find about

between one and 10 percent really are. And the most of the rest of them, it's about they need deliverance, but not exorcism. And how do you know they really are as opposed to just dealing with something psychological? Well, what exorcists do is they do, they go through some, well, first of all, you always do a background check. And every exorcist who does that work would be required to rule out medical things, first of all, that usually there's to be some kind of psychological evaluation, even if it's not a full, you know, psychological evaluation, but someone who's trained to,

see, you know, psychological aspects. So you want to rule out some things first. And then when it's reasonably certain that a person may have either oppression or possession, usually they pray diagnostic prayers. Okay. Which means you pray a certain number of prayers that are meant to sort of call out if a demon is possessing. These prayers cause or make the demons step forward. One of them is, you know, precipio TB, you know, I command you.

if you are present to step forward now and tell me your name, you know. How effective is that? Well, most exorcists tell me that it's quite effective. Those prayers really bug, it's talking about narcissism. I mean, demons are the most narcissistic of all, you know. And most exorcists tell me, yeah, they're pretty powerful. Now, they might be able to hide for a session, but if they're there, they're going to step forward and say, listen, you stupid little priest.

Do you know who I am? You know, and they'll come, they'll step forward. And so it's a process of discernment. And of course, the other thing to remember is there are four preternatural signs that the right of exorcism assigns to, it must be at least one of them, ideally two, preternatural signs. So for example, are you going to tell me what they are? Yes, sure.

We would call hidden knowledge where the person knows things that they couldn't know. Someone might a demon might say to a priest. Your mother used to call you, blah, blah, blah, you know. Really? I never told anybody that. I was embarrassed by that. And, you know, so the priest knows, well, that's... Or the knowledge of languages.

The person doesn't say no any Latin or any other languages, but suddenly the demon steps who comes forward is aware of the meaning of these words. They speak ancient languages, and they understand what the Latin is commanding. saying, but the person themselves doesn't know Latin. So it's the knowledge of... I had an exorcist once tell me that while he was performing the right of exorcism, the demon made fun of his Latin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard that too. I would like to say I'm a good Latinist. I know my Latin, but... So you'd appreciate what the demons correction is. But no, I mean, you know, you would hear some guys. And that's why I think, you know, there's a lot of people

say that the rights should all be done in Latin as more powerful. Yes, but if it makes the demons laugh and holler at your bad pronunciation. Exor chisotabit, Taibi, diobale, you know, I mean, they're just gonna hoot and lower.

You know, so I think if a priest doesn't know enough Latin, do it in English. All right, so hidden knowledge. Yeah, oh yeah.

Languages they shouldn't know. Unusual physical strength. Okay. Or physical abilities. What's examples of this that you see? Well, again, I've been told these kinds of stories that,

um, In one exorcism, a young girl, maybe 120 pounds max, could just with her arm and possessed state cast a 300-pound man like a rag doll across the room. Or sometimes they can assume unusual postures leaning way back. Levitation is sometimes reported. It's pretty rare. I'm aware of a case of someone who, you know, this person who was possessed would sometimes be thrown all the way across the room to the room.

the other side, you know, up in the air and spun around and slammed down. So those are very unusual physical things. Yes. And so one of these has to be present. Is that correct? Yeah, you want to at least have one of these pre-internatural signs. Yeah, one will do. A final one is pretty vague.

What's that? But it's aversion to the sacred. Okay. You know, because, but the person isn't normally averse to the sacred, but suddenly, you know, you bring out a relic and they're like, you know, that kind of a thing. Oh. Is there change in the voice at all or not? Well, yeah. I think most extras would say we also add in, we don't really treat it as a preternatural sign,

but usually there's a change in the eyes and also the sound of the voice. How so? The face just looks rigid and the eyes rivet and they look through you, you know. I don't know if I can imitate it very well, but the point is that there's a kind of a riveting look. and the face, it's still their face, but there's a change in the appearance. It's tight or it's, you know, assuming a kind of a demeanor that just doesn't, it's not normal to the person.

So I think those would be the main, you know, the fourth signs of pre-internatural, but there are other minor signs that you would probably look for to, that there's a definite person who step forward here that's different than that person. their body is still there and their soul is they can't possess the soul

only the faculty is the body but that some other person has stepped forward and is manifesting and it reminds me maybe this is the wrong way of thinking of it as a mock incarnation yeah exactly people have asked me because I do teach angels and demons

I am a for several like the Avala Institute and for the Institute of Catholic Culture and for the Leo the 13th Institute I do some training there for so I teach angels and demons and I would just say that so a lot of these things

I've certainly learned from that too I would say that the whole experience is a very wrenching one for everybody who goes through it on the other hand it's very affirming of the faith

it must yeah I'm sure if you're for real yeah you're a priest who goes through one exorcism like that it'd be difficult to deny the existence Yeah, and to that bishop who said that, I just wanted to say to him, I didn't say anything because, you know, I was just a young priest, but I, you're going to be very surprised one day. You're going to look them in the eye. Is there any indication that exorcisms are on the rise as fewer and fewer people are baptized, or do we not have that data? Well, I think we have data. Certainly there's a lot more.

Let's get in our time machine and go back to 1940. Exorcisms were rare in this country. Really? Very rare. And there was a whole way of thinking that had already taken hold in the church long before the council. We'd like to blame everything on the council. But long before that, there was just rise of psychologism, I'll call it, everything psychology. They're not, they don't have demons, just send them to the psychiatric doctor, you know.

And sometimes that was true, you know, people who have like schizophrenia often hear voices and, you know, do things. But at the end of the day, yeah, I know. know the numbers up because we pretty much weren't doing them at all. And then I would say maybe about 20 years ago, thanks to certain exorcist in Rome, who began to revive interest in this and say, this is important. And as part of the ministry of the church, we've begun against. And that's the first reason they're up. But the second reason they're up, obviously, is you kick God to the curb and you create an opening, you know, a space. It's going to be filled, you know. And it's, the demons are very happy to fill that space.

People say, well, I don't need God, kick God to the curb. And then, you know, you're a sitting duck. Now, I would say to people who are in a state of grace, don't be anxious that you're going to sit there and just suddenly get possessed. That is extremely rare. Most people who do get possessed, there's some door they help to open,

not always, but some door they help to open. Okay, what does that mean? What are doors people can open to the demonic? Well, maybe they toyed around with tarot cards or palm readers or they dabbled in the occult, even things like crystals. And I would also say

people need to get much more sober about yoga. How, did you tell me about that? Well, oh, it's just stretching. No, what you're doing is you're assuming positions that are based on certain Buddhist and Hindu gods. And you're asking that the energy channel through you. And this is not just stretching. This is a religious practice and more power to them, but it's not ours.

Jesus never said this. And so to dabble into this and talk about chakra and energy flows through the body and, you know, all these kinds of trying to manipulate that through rikey and all these. It's all about trying to control and to manipulate. And God said, no, just trust me. I don't want you to run after these false gods. And I want you just to trust me. and they're going to harm you. I'm not, you know. The first commandment is meant to protect us. It's not because God has a big ego.

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How do you pray? It sounds like a simple question until you try to answer it. Do you have a prayer you return to, a particular time of day, or do you mostly pray when something goes wrong? That question is at the heart of Hallow's 21 days of prayer challenge. Each day, someone new shares how they pray and invites you to pray alongside them. You're going to hear from people like Coach Prime, Gwen Stefani, priests, pastors, parents, and others. It's really important and I think it'll be really helpful to you. This isn't 21 days of abstract theological discussion.

It's 21 prayers and ways of praying you can take with you. Maybe you find one for the morning or one you remember when things get difficult. maybe you relearn how to be still and make time for God. Phones, work, news, there's always a reason not to stop and pray. Whether you've prayed your whole life or aren't really sure how to begin, give God 21 days, show up, pray alongside someone new and see what happens. Download Hello for three months for free and join the 21 Days Prayer Challenge at hallow.com slash frad. That's hello.com slash frad. So is one of the ways we know of these as you call them

openings to the demonic. Is that through exorcisms? Is that how we come to know of this? Or how do we Well, no, there was a long tradition. In other words, sorry, in other words, if you're engaging in an exorcism with somebody, do priests report that they tend to have histories of dabbling in the occult and so on? Yeah, I would say the majority of people who, who end up being possessed, have had some dabbling in the occult. Now, there are some strange exceptions. We don't know why.

But as I say, generally, you know, generally if you're in a state of grace, you're not going to be, you know, able to be easily cursed by some witch or you're not going to be able to easily be possessed by demons. You know, but if you're not, and you're going to live apart from the church and the sacraments, you know, you're a sitting duck.

But that said, even then, most people don't get, you know, diabolically oppressed or possessed. I mean, in most cases, the devil feels, well, he's already mine. I don't need to mess with him, you know. What does infestation mean? And what are some examples of that that you've either seen or heard of? Yes. An infestation refers to when demons seem to be inhabiting a certain place, a house, sometimes a field or, you know, some location.

And so that's what we call an infestation. station. And it's very interesting in the training I did, you know, and also teaching on angels and demons and the different things, we were told that the first thing when an exorcist is called to go to a house that someone's reporting, I think there's demons here. Yeah. His first position, is this demons or is a ghost? Okay. And again, the Catholic church doesn't say ghost exists, but it's a long tradition that there does seem to be a lot of evidence that, people from there who have died are able to sometimes reach out. And Aquinas talks about this.

It could be a soul in purgatory, besetching our prayers and so on. Yeah. So even if there isn't an official dogma, we try to. So what's the distinction? And again, in the exorcist tradition, and as we teach on angels and demons, there's a, well, first of all, demons wreck things. They break things. They create chaos.

Whereas a ghost doesn't break and wreck things. There's a tension getting. Like, faucets will come on. And that's it. Okay. Or lights. Wait a minute. There's nobody who out of that light come on.

You know, that kind of a thing. And so, if that, if, you know, you see some of that, you might, you might say, well, you know, you could read the prayers, exorcists and prayers. Usually they use the exorcist. They'll use the Leonine. prayers. Chapter 3, it's called of the right. And that's meant for places more than people. But at the end of the day, you might still read it, but you would also maybe say, if someone here needs our prayers, I want you to know, we're going to offer a series of 10 masses for your intention or something. If it is someone maybe from purgatory, oh, by the way, another rule of

thumb that exorcists talk about is that if the so-called ghost is talking to you, The only thing that usually a ghost should be able to say is help. Oh. But if they start having chatty conversations with you and things, generally one would say, no. Now, there are exceptions. No, what? No, that's not a ghost. Yeah, that's probably not a demon.

Okay. But that said, generally most hauntings aren't lengthy discussions and things like that. So all that said, we have a situation now where once you've, if you've determined that it's a ghost, the best thing is to pray. Unfortunately, don't call ghostbusters. You know, ghosts deserve our sympathy. Yeah. See, not our fear and anger and all of that.

So, but if it is a demon, an infestation, then one uses the exorcism, right, with incense and holy water and some of those things to begin to drive back. Sometimes it has to, you know, well, it's not always a one and you're done. You know, sometimes it has to be done several times. And then the proof's in the pudding if the occurrences, cease. What are some examples, if you do you? don't mind me asking of things you've heard when it was likely to be demons, as you say, breaking things.

Well, I can say that I know of some stories that have been told of, sadly, some former religious houses that became haunts of demons. You know, there's a lot of bad stuff going on in some of those places in the late 60s and through the 70s. So, you know, but I'm aware of some teams of actions. is usually several priests and other lay assistants kind of going through there some servers with incense and just reading the prayers all throughout the building and finding that how did they how did they what made them think that you know well it'd be it had become either a

nursing home or it had become a seminary or something and there was just a lot of people leaving and getting sick and different weird things like that and so they were It was thought to go ahead and do an exorcism. Leaving and getting sick doesn't sound terribly dramatic. No, but when the numbers are really strange and high. So it's just, I don't know all the stories, but I can say that one particular place where a religious community had a wing of the school where they lived. And it was discovered that there was pentagrams and different things in the basement there. And they'd really got that order, a particular order, I won't mention the name, upon very bad.

And so they were pretty clear, this is demonic here. And, um, golly. I was in Ireland and I won't mention the order either, but it's, it was meant to be some of the kind of marines of our religious orders. Yeah. We went there to host a retreat and we went into one of the rooms. It was the library. Mm-hmm. And it, and the Blessed Sacrament was stuffed in the corner.

The tabernacle was stuffed in the corner. And we said, what's going on? Yeah. They had cleared out the chapel for yoga. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We could repeat these stories. Oh, yeah.

No need, but. But that said, I think that what we want to do is maybe, I think the healthy approach when it comes to questions of angels and demons. First of all, let's be careful to remember. Demons are not omnipotent. They're not omniscient. They're not, they can't just do whatever they want. God limits their powers.

Angels are more powerful. God is more powerful. Amen. Sacraments are more powerful than exorcisms. which is the Sacramento, and on and on I could go. Also, the healthy thing I think is to realize that I told you back in the 40s, there was this all psychological. And we got out of the business.

That's our job. And we got out of the business and we handed it over to the experts. But they were dealing with mental health issues. But there's almost always some overlap that we should at least respect. Yes. And then we can always pray for them, even if it's informal exorcism. You know, when I'm teaching angel and the demons of priests, well, what should I do?

Well, you can always pray with them, Father. And you can give them a recommendation to talk to the therapist. But the point is, keep praying with them. You're their priest. Pray. I mean, just basic pastoral care would suggest that we shouldn't have just handed this whole thing over. So I think a healthy thing is to remember that if someone, even if someone is just outright possessed, that there's probably psychological elements.

And even if you drive out the demons, they're going to still need care. And so we shouldn't just say it's one thing or the other. It's almost always a little bit of overlap. Yeah. I think that's the healthy thing. And that way, we don't want to become overly superstitious or go to the other extreme where everything's demons. Yeah.

And we're, you know, driving everything out. And we miss good medical care and things that we should be doing. And as you know, there are some sad cases out there in the past where, you know, doctors should have been consulted during an exorcism but wasn't. the and the person was either deeply hurt or injured or in one case, the young lady died. This is going way back now into the previous century. But, you know, it's important to be careful. I mean, to your point about the faithful not having excessive fear about the demonic,

they need only read St. Athanasius biography of St. Anthony of Egypt, who made it extremely clear that the demons are cowards, that they hate the sign of the cross. He says, if a demon appears to you, all you have. have to say is who are you and wence and they will flee. Okay. So that's that's good. Now I heard someone say and I wonder if this is true is a confession in one sense more powerful than an exorcism and why? Because it's a sacrament. An exorcism is a sacramental. So as you probably know, but I'll just repeat for some of our listeners here. A sacrament works as we say ex-operi operato By the very fact that it's worked, something objective is done.

So absolution is given, which is a real grace. Holy Communion, or the Eucharist is confected, to use, you know, confective. The words actually produce it. It's just by the very fact that you work the work, it's worked. Whereas ex-operi operanthus is the mode when we deal with sacramentals. That is to say, like, you know, I got my scapeter somewhere. under all these layers. But, you know, but it depends, those aren't just, you know, they don't work infallibly.

It depends a lot on the piety and the, uh, of the person wearing it and their prayerfulness and so on. So sacramentals depend a lot, both on the one who might be, uh, giving it and the one who might be receiving it. Some sacramentals who just received like a medal. Yeah. It's blessed. But sometimes a sacramental would be a blessing from a priest for any number of things, um, including,

um, uh, deliverance kind of praying. And frankly, even outright exorcism, it's not a sacrament. It's a sacramental. It's a blessing. And it doesn't have quite the immediate power. It depends a lot on the person's openness to receive the graces, as well as the one who's, say, the priest or the exorcist, to some degree on their holiness and so on. So there's a lot of things that sacramentals depend on to be particularly fruitful,

whereas the sacrament is by the word. wrought is just it is what it is. I want to move on to the topic of angels, since you've said you teach on that. But before we kind of leave the topic of hell and the demonic, I have one more question. What does it mean to say Christ descended into hell? Where did he go? What did he do? What should Catholics know about that?

Yeah, in English, we have kind of an unfortunate thing. It's translated to hell. There were some translations of the creed that I wasn't entirely against where they started. He descended to the dead. When Christ descended to the hell, it wasn't the hell of the damned. It was the place where all the righteous souls. The righteous souls who were detained because Christ hadn't yet come to open the gates, so to speak, of heaven. And Christ descended and went down among them, called the harrowing of hell.

You know, he went down and he woke them up. I love, I love, there's a beautiful meditation on Holy Saturday in the Brewery. that's all about this magnificent going, Jesus went down among the dead. And he first went to Adam and Eve. And it says that he, he said to them, Awake, O sleeper, and I, their Christ will give you light. I, who am your God, for your sake, have become your son.

And they get up and, you know, basically, you know, if you follow the story more, he basically turned out the devil's trophy room. He turned it out, woke all the dead up and said, get in line. We're going up yonder. There's a beautiful icon in the Byzantine tradition of Christ leading Adam and Eve out of the mouth of the serpent. You also have the cross that Christ stands on. But I just want to throw that out to the scrupulous listener who is afraid that they're too far gone. When Adam and Eve who started this mess are saints, you are not too far gone.

Right. Amen to that. Yeah. And so as I say, there's also this beautiful tradition if you go to the Holy Land. and I've been privileged to say mass up at the Golgatha, right there where Christ was crucified at the Latin altar there. And then also in the edicule where the slab, where he rose from the dead, and it's electrifying. You feel this energy moving through you. But I've been in both places,

but when you're up in the Galgotha, there's a tradition that was also where Adam was buried. His body was buried. And so as the blood of Christ dripped down from the cross and went through the rock, and it touched the dry bones of Adam. He got up and danced a jig. Come on.

It's just lovely stories, you know. We see in some religious art a skull, don't we, at the base of the cross, which represents Adam. Yeah. And that's the tradition, yeah. So whether or not, you know, you can really say, well, that's the tomb of Adam, you know. But the point is that, you know, it's a beautiful tradition.

And so, yeah, now, yeah, about angels, I want to say, I love to teach about them more than demons. Well, good. What do Catholics need to be? need to know about angels. Angels are everywhere. Myriads and myriads. You know, whenever they're described, you know,

numbers beyond imagining. And there's nine, you know, the nine ranks, they're sometimes called nine choirs. Where do we get that idea from? Well, St. Thomas mainly, he's the great angelic doctor. But let's be careful to remember, and I always say this when I'm teaching angelogy, angelology, if you want to,

sometimes people pronounce it, angelogy. is that these things Thomas says we understand, but they're not all de feide definita dogma. Some of them are just well attested to teachings. Like they call it a sentencia communis, a common teaching of the church. So we read from the fathers of the church and so on, how the early church understood angels and so on.

Now, angels are in, so the nine choirs come from there. Now, Thomas would, he sort of specifies, he see, in different places in the Bible, they're called by these different names. But it would seem that they also have different functions and so on. And so there are nine ranks that we know of. There may be more, but nine ranks that we can say,

well, it seems in scripture these names are used, you know. And so we have, you know, we have, of course, the cherub and the seraphim and thrones up there in the throne room of heaven. They minister in the third heavens, the highest heavens. And then we have, you know, we have to here on Earth, the lowest, well, I'll go to the middle realm. I mean, you have the principalities and powers and thrones. And then here on earth, you have the angels, the archangels, and the, what do I miss you? I missed one.

Anyway, but the point is that I think that it's interesting to think about the cosmology. Because a lot of people get to say, it says heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will never pass. Well, I didn't think heaven would pass. Well, when the Jewish people thought of heavens, they had three heavens in mind. And some people say seven, but I think pretty well three. Where's the first heaven? That's where God lives. That's not going anywhere.

There's also, though, the heavens where the planets and the stars are. That's the second heavens. And then there's the first heavens, which is here on Earth. And that's where the clouds and the birds are. Okay. So first heavens, second heaven, and third. And there's three ranks of angels ministering in each of those three ranks of heaven. and some of them are moving the stars

and some of them are ministering to God in heaven and then the ones in the middle range are moving the stars and the planets and so on. And then we have some here on earth and we think of a guardian angels but it's not just human beings that have a guardian angel, sometimes a diocese, a church has an angel

to the angel of the Church of Ephesus, write this, you know, and so on. Large countries are said to have, you know, guardian angels. Think of the angel of Portugal that presented himself or itself. Sure, amen, yeah. So, anyway, there's all this activity, but now here's what, again, some people say, oh, this is also trite. You know, we're angels.

Isn't that cute? You know, well, we know better now. We have, we know physics and we know, well, I would say that, take an airplane. I just got off a one earlier this morning. How does an airplane lift off? Well, a physicist will say, well, you sculpt the wind. and it's a combination of thrust and lift. You sculpt the wing so the pressure is less above the wing

and higher beneath it, and it lifts with the thrust. Okay, that's a nice physical explanation. Thomas would say, well, the angels lift it. Now, he's not being primitive. Okay, what's he being? He's saying that behind all of these physical things are angels, that God works everything through his angels. It's like a neural network.

So when you say the angels move the start, What do you not mean? Well, I'm not saying that we can't physically say, well, there's a combination of gravity and, you know, the different swirlings and things. But at the end of the day, it's still behind that is an angelic order. And that God ministers all of creation. Like a deeper level of being. Yeah. So if God is the basement of being, yeah, I think that might be one way to understand.

Yeah. Or I might be completely wrong. So I feel for it. Well, I would put God at the top. But he's ministering everything through the ministry of angels. Okay. If a leaf falls, you know, oh, that's gravity and that's air. Okay, but everything that happens, God, is, he's doing it all.

Yes. He holds all creation together himself. But he ministers it through the angels. So it's a little bit like if I want to charge my cell phone, I don't plug it into 120. I have to have that little brick that brings 120 volts. down to whatever 40 or whatever volts, whatever it is. Otherwise, I'll fry it. I'll just completely fry the phone.

I think that's kind of the way that is God is so awesome that he has to attenuate. It's just a way I like to think of it. That's helpful. But we just keep thinking that's just directly between me and God. And that's not, God doesn't work, God works hierarchically. God's really into hierarchy. I know. We hate that stuff in the modern world.

We want anarchy. But he's all about it. Yeah. But all that said, I think I just love the role of the angels and the liturgy and that all these things that are going on in the liturgy are just, most of the fathers of the church say that if the, I love that, for example, origin says that the angels are there at the liturgy and they are judging the homily. Oh, holding up their signs, I guess.

Careful priest, you know. Or, but anything that a human being does in the liturgy has an angel assisting it. So the preaching, the angels assisting. When the deacon prepares the chalice, the angels are also participating. Everything you can think of in the liturgy has an angelic counterpart. And the place is filled with angels, myriads and myriads. What does it mean to say that a place is filled with angels when angels aren't corporeal? Yeah.

Thomas speaks of angels being in a... place in terms of where they're exercising their influence. See, we don't speak of them and being in a place like you and I are in a place, but rather where they exercise their influence. So the answer to the question, how many angels could dance on the head of a pin is? It's silly. Okay. I thought the answer was as many as God wishes.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's doesn't, they don't dance on the head of a pin in the sense that they take up a certain amount of space. That's right. That's right. They're no more, you can no more see an angel than you can see a thought. I see. I mean, they're pure spirit. Now, by the way, there are some earlier traditions in their very earliest days of the church

where some people, some of the fathers spoke of maybe some of the angels as having bodies. But that kind of fell away. And generally, angels don't, they can take up the form or the appearance of having a body. But they don't. They're just, they're pure spirit. What do you wish Catholics knew about their guardian angels? Because I think a lot of Catholics have no clue even that there are such things. They're forgetful as a guardian angel, yeah.

Well, I like to think, first of all, the main way we interact with our guardian angel is through the voice of our conscience. Okay. See, if you read Exodus, now he's talking more about not just our personal guardian angels, but he gives the basic, people have turned angels into fluffy. Yes. They're not. They're powerful, awesome. Classic image that we often see in the west of this giant woman in a nightgown, leaving two kids over rickety bridge. Yeah, right. God bless their attempt, but that is how a lot of people just view our guardian angel.

And we almost treat them like pets. So, for example, the Vatican had to remind us, don't name your guardian angel. Don't do that. Because you name something beneath you. You don't name. That's important to reiterate, because I hear a lot of people still doing that. And here's what God says, though, about how we should interact with our angels. He says, I'm sending you an angel to guard you. And you will listen to his voice. And you will heed it because it is my voice he's giving you. see so in other words angels are to be respected angels are to in every way you know we we should heed them and honor them and respect them and not treat them like pets or say oh goddine angel would you do this for me yeah or something you know you know silly for example i will ask my guardian angel if i'm maybe in a conflict with somebody yes guardian angel if it be your will would you go to her or his guardian angel and see if you can kind of push this along a little

Could you, you know, I don't say do this, I'd say, would you? And I've often found angels can work stuff out when there's intractable debates and frustrations between people I love. Yes. Yeah. Tell me about holy water. Is this just a Catholic superstition? Or what happens when we bless our hotel rooms or? Yeah.

Well, I think that, you know, what we want to say is that because the water is blessed, it then converts the blessing on the things that touch. And, you know, that doesn't mean, well, only this little spot of wood is bled. I mean, but the idea is, though, that we, we sprinkle some holy water, and there comes, if you will, like maybe rose petals or something. There's a, there's a lot of blessings that descend on what it touches. So that's the first thing, you know, but holy water's, if you read the right, I'd like to use the older right of blessing of holy water. It's just, it's more beefy. You exercise the salt and then you bless the salt, then you exercise water. and you bless the water and then you mix them

and you do one more blessing. So a lot of blessing, and it often mentions, may this water be unto all who use it, you know, may it drive away demons, may it bring blessings, may it convey health and other helps to the people who use it. So that it's meant to bring all those things, not just, you know, sort of drive away something

or just simply bless it in some vague sense. but it's meant for a very specific, you know, blessings of our life, our health, our homes, our places of work, and the things we want to bring blessings to. And so it's also meant to, as I say, bring health and welfare. So I think, you know, one of the things, by the way, Stephen Rosetti wrote a great book that should have been, I mean, it should be in every seminary. It's called the priestly blessing. Okay.

And one of the funny things is that in the seminary, one of the first things that most of us, we get asked 100 times a day sometimes to bless things. Father, we bless us. Father, we bless us. We have no theology of it. And it's a beautiful book where he goes through the teachings, the documents, and all the things that you might. And he goes through and explains the priestly blessing and why it's important. And so that we priests have a better and more elevated sense of what we're doing. You know, there's one of the quick thought about blessings from priest. The blessings from a priest come through his hands. Okay. But why does the priest then wear the humoral veil when he holds up the monstrance? And some people know this, but many don't. It's because in that case, it's not coming through the priest's hands. It's Jesus. It's right there, Jesus.

And so he covers his hands to make that clearer. What's your advice to Catholics with, say, blessed medals? What's the advantage of wearing something like this? How do you explain it to somebody that it's not merely superstitious? and perhaps back to our discussion about infestation and temptation of these sorts of things, is there, what's the role of wearing sacramentals? Yeah, like I have my scapular on under here too. I would say that, you know, the main way to explain it is to say, well, this is a way of saying,

I'm trying my very best to stay dedicated to God or to a certain prayers of a certain saint or the crucifix reminding me the source of my salvation, that I'm consecrated, I'm taken over to God. I'm taken out of the world of darkness and I brought a, into the kingdom of light at my baptism. That's deliverance. And we're brought out, and then this now, we're signed for Christ.

In the book of Revelation, as well as in the Old Testament, they were told to trace a tau on the forehead of everyone who is to be saved. And so this is kind of another way of manifesting that. You can't really see the Tao except on Ash Wednesday. But at the end of the day, it's a way of saying, I'm set apart in some way. And I'm trying to live this.

It should not be treated as superstitious. I know there's promises that if you die wearing the scapeter, but I'm sorry if you die wearing the scapillar doing something you shouldn't be doing mortally, that's not going to save you. The point is that it implies it's like a scapillar for a religious. They're living a consecrated life, a life that's set apart, and that is pleasing to God. And so there's so many other ways we could describe it,

but I would use mainly those under the, I'm trying, this is a reminder to me, as you said earlier about clerical things and religious habits, it's also an external sign or a sacramental to others who may see it, and it's certainly a reminder of the individual who wears it. One of the things I try to do after night prayer with my family every night is I'll take the crucifix and I'll put it to the lips of my children and wife. Beautiful. And I wanted to ask you about the power of a parent's blessing.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think a lot of people fell away from this idea that a parent could bless the child. Only priests can bless, you know. And yes, in many cases, certainly in the liturgy. But parents can and should bless their children. I probably avoiding overtly, well, sorry, I think he may overtly priestly blessings. But, you know, a sign of the cross on the forehead or just, you know, laying on it, you know, pressing. But at the end of the day, I think, no, we should want to emphasize that the parental

blessing is very important and very powerful because, you know, a parent has special authority over that child as long as they're a minor and still in their household. This also comes up a lot in this question of, can parents even tell demons to leave their children alone and so on? The answer is yes, but it's kind of different rules of thumb, you know, when does a parent's authority to do those kind of blessings or things cease, you know, and usually when a child goes out of the house and as quote emancipated, but, you know, there's different points of view on some of that. I began this conversation by asking you about the state of the church. I want to ask you about the state of the culture. Oh, dear. What culture? That's great. Here you go. Here's a better

question. What does culture mean? Well, you know, it's interesting. If you look at the word culture, the word cult is at the root of it. Now, cult comes off badly in English, but that's just our problem. Cultus in Latin means a shared devotion, a religion that binds us to God and to each other. So there's two words, culture and religion. Culture, though, is... So a culture means that any group, a nation, or a large group, looks all of them to God, to the one God.

And what makes it a culture, then, is that there's something above everyone in all the different differences in that culture, that they all look, to and owe allegiance to as well as to listen to. So in our country, we've always, in America, we've been, we're not, we had a lot of sectarian differences, but we had the basic biblical narrative, which kind of served as the cultists that built our culture, but that's gone now. It's almost, almost nobody has a biblical worldview.

I say almost nobody, but I mean, you know, and no longer do we all agree on basic things. And so you take that away, and there really can't be a culture because there isn't a shared cultists. There has to be something above us. Yeah. So what is this? So we all owe allegiance to and that it unites us. What is it that we live in? I guess you, because I'm with you.

Like, I've heard common, sorry, culture described, and you described it much better than this is going to be. But life lived in common. And you look at Americans today and you go, well, what are we have in common? I think it was Anthony Esseland who said something like the Super Bowl, New Year's Eve and a hangover. That's about it. Nobody can say things like that, like Anthony has to look like. He's great. He is terrific.

But I have to say that I think there's also another thing that I find, you know, I hate when people say, I'm spiritual but not religious. Oh, please. Now, religion is a beautiful word and we need to recapture it. It comes from legal legale. It means to be held close by God. To be, you know, to be, it's the ties that bind. And none of this.

we're held close by God, we're held close to each other. It's a beautiful idea of being bound in an embrace, and it's not like being tied up in a rope, but it's the opposite. It's that embrace. Religion is a beautiful word that we need to recover. And so let's be the ties that bind, you know, an old Protestant hymn. But it's a beautiful thought, you know, that religion binds us to God, but in the good sense, like an embrace, binds. And because of that, we are bound to each other. And so take away God and the whole thing

kind of crumbles. It's like decapitating, so to speak, a body. The whole body then falls to pieces and goes away. And I'm afraid I'm not real optimistic about Western culture right now. I think America, we stand more of a chance. I think Europe, not too. Why do we stand more of a chance? Most of our immigrants are Catholic and Christian, whereas Europe is not the case. But I think that we still have a lot of people who still come to this country who still have, you know, the rudiments of faith. And God bless us. And where we be in some of our parishes today were the Hispanics who've come and filled our once dead and our empty churches.

I'm excited about our immigrants mainly. I don't want illegal immigration that has to be dealt with but um we have to have order but at the end of the day I'm very I think that we still haven't wholly discarded the religion but even worse I think what Europe is they've discarded their faith but another faith is coming in it's not known for its tolerance it's not known for it you know it was quite depressing I mean I lived in Austria for six months and the small towns are okay but you go to a big city and it's Islamified yeah There's Muslims and trannies, and then the rest of us are just sort of frightened people walking around, hoping nothing bad will happen to us. You know, that's interesting. It almost harkens back, though. You know, the Muslims made it all the way to the gates of Vienna. Yeah, they did. And there's a lot of, if you go in Bavaria and Austria, you'll see a lot of Muslim influence still to this day.

But, yeah, I tell you, I'm going to be going to Fatima next in November. I've been there several times. Isn't it interesting that the Quran. speaks of the greatest woman ever born is Mary, the mother of Jesus. And the second greatest woman is Fatima. Yes, the daughter of Muhammad's daughter. Yeah. I think it was Fulton Sheen. Yeah, said that the Blessed Virgin Mary would convert the Marmadans. I hope so. Right now it doesn't look so good. But I mean, she's biding her time. Yeah. Because it didn't look so good down in Mexico. They weren't making many converts. And our lady stepped on the scene and there were nine million.

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they wonder, am I allowed to invite my, this homosexual couple over for dinner? Or, you know, maybe something to do with transgenderism. Like, where's, how should we navigate these things? I know that's a complex question. It's going to depend on circumstance. Sure. Well, I do think that a couple of things occurred to me to say. First of all, I like the way, Benedict always put it, he said that love without charity without truth is weak and

soft, but truth without love is hard and hold, hold, and they need to be together. Okay. Now another thought I though would have about the idea of truth and charity is that

you know, we have this refrain today. A lot of people say if you don't agree with me you hate me and I think once you were saying so here's and that's another reason why I think the idea of hell is kind of gone south in most people's mind we have we're living in an age where we've reduced love to mere kindness now kindness is an aspect of love but so is rebuke yeah correction and so we need to I think somehow recover the idea that love is I want what's best for you and errors will not make you happy, lies, and sins are not going to make you happy.

I want what's best for you. And so out of my love for you, I want you to know this truth so that you don't fall into traps that have already been shown to be traps by our previous generations. Why re-learned the whole thing? So in any way, there's some way we have to recover

that love is not just, you know, it's not just kindness. There's a place for kindness, but true love, any parent knows. If you're just kind to your kids all the time, they're spoiled, rotten, and they don't know good from bad. I mean, you know, it's, they have to be corrected. That's real love. Otherwise, you know, they're going to go out in the world just completely lost. So somewhere, I think that's going to have to be, how we, you know, how we can, you know,

recover a proper understanding of love. unfortunately in English, we have only one word. And so much so that we were kidding earlier, but God loves you. He even likes you, because like is almost taken on more meaning now than love. I love my car. I love my coffee.

I love my wife. I love God. What do you mean? Yeah. And at least, I know certainly ancient Greek, but certainly other languages have different words for love. And I can't think that in English we have many others Yeah.

Affection. Yes. Maybe. But yeah. So as I say somewhere, people really struggle when they hear they're supposed to, quote, love their enemy. You know, doesn't what I feel good? You know, it's not, we think, people think love means just feeling. And it's, you know, it's a little sterile.

But, you know, Thomas, of course, says it. And Bishop Barron always reminds us, love is to will the good of the other. Right. Well, it's a little sterile. But I get that. That's more close to the truth, though. then there's, I feel affection, you know, at every moment for even my enemy while he beats me up. You know, feelings are going to be, they're not facts.

I think it's probably fair to say that the reasons a lot of Catholics are confused is that we stop teaching the old catechism. So Baltimore Catechism, should we bring it back or something like that? Well, you know, it's interesting. I used it for number four or five years in my own, I do a whole family catechises approach in my parents. but I would say that what I found was they memorized these things but never reflected on what it really meant and that's the shortcoming now I don't say they shouldn't memorize I think we should bring that kind of stuff back but God made me to know him love him and serve him this life and be happy with him forever in the next life where is God God is everywhere and okay but stop

what does that mean he's everywhere God made me to know him love him and serve him You know, let's talk, let's unpack that a little. And that's where I think sometimes the older format of just memorizing, oh, I mean, hundreds of questions and answers might have fallen a little short. It has a danger, let's put it that way. It was certainly better than this vague, vapid, God let you, and, you know, try to be good. And, you know, I could tell you every sermon I ever heard growing up in three sentences. That was it, was it?

Well, Jesus is challenging us to do better today. let us try to do better. Now please stand for the creed. I mean, I don't mean to be too critical, but it's just so substance less. There's no substance anymore. And I always like to tell people what I'm going to tell them about. Yesterday I was preaching a sermon and saying,

I want to talk to you today about the fear of the Lord. Good. And then I, you know, so that it's not just this sort of vapid kind of stuff. Anyway, we struggle a lot to really teach it. I don't think, I don't have a silver. bullet. I don't know how to hand on the faith to children. I don't have the silver bullet. This is the way, and we just do it this. Well, it helps if the parents love Jesus Christ and

the Catholic faith because then the children are exposed to it all the time. And you know, I get questions all the time from parents. Oh, I put my kid through Catholic school and did all the right things father. That's why they don't go to church anymore. Precisely why he's not in a good place. Right. It's sad. Yeah, it is sad. But I ask them. Catholic schools. Chest and Academy's doing great stuff. Don't get me wrong. Regina Chaley, they're good, but I'd say the most of them are terrible. Yeah, they were just, they were just in public school things with a very thin patina of faith.

That's what my school was like. Yeah, that mine, you know. And often we learned about Buddhism or something else. Yeah. God forbid that we would treat the Catholic faith. But here's why I come back, though, to parents when they say, well, I put my kid through, they don't come. I say, well, why do you go to Mass?

And they look at me like, I don't know. It's a rule, you know, or something like, if it's something, And so I say to them, well, look, let me tell you why I go to Mass. Well, you're a priest. You have to. No, no, no, no. Just as a disciple, okay? Here's why I go to Mass.

I go to Mass because Jesus Christ walks the aisle of my church. And he greets me. And he asks me how I'm doing, the penitential right and so on. And he teaches me. And he feeds me with his body and blood. And all these years are going to Mass. I don't know where I'd be without that. I'm a change man going to mass every day for the last 45 years in my life since I entered seminary

mass every day rosary every day you know confession once a week prayer meditation on God's word it works I'm a change man I'm not what I want to be I'm not what I used to be a wonderful change I'm so grateful to God's sacraments to work I go to mass because it works because I my whole personality is being changed more and more into the one I encounter in every liturgy, Jesus Christ. Now, I mean, I just beg parents, try to take some of that and put it together. Don't lie. But if you've been going faithfully to Mass for years, you're going to say, I've come a long way. I mean, I'm not where I need to be yet, but I've come a long way because the Mass is transformative.

Sacraments are not tedious rituals. They are transformative realities. But how many children have ever heard their parents even say them, I really love the Lord. I want you to know why. He's been good to me. He's seen me through so many things. You know, testify.

But it's just not an archaithic tradition. The Protestants do a pretty good job of it. Testimony is a big part of the Protestant. Even their hymns. I once was lost in sin. But Jesus took me in and then a little light from heaven filled my heart. He bathed my heart in love and wrote my name above. and just a little talk with Jesus made me whole.

And it sounds a little trite. But the point is it's a formula. It's beautiful. It's simple. It's not right. It's simple. It's a model. Yeah.

And we don't do well with it. One year in my parish, I said, I want everyone to write a thank you note to Jesus for Christmas. And we're going to put in the basket over here by the Kresch. I want you to just thank him for all the good he's done. Try to think of some really, what is he done in your life? And I want you to write that to him. keep a copy. And when someone says, why do you go to that church? Why do you read that Bible? Yeah. I'll tell you why.

Yeah. Love is my life. Love is further and kindled by expressing thanks. You know, if I never told my wife I loved her or why I loved her, my love isn't going to grow as well as it may, you know, just to say, Jesus, I love you. Yeah. I love you for your character. I love you for saving me. Yeah. I love you for loving me when I can't even stand myself half the time. Yeah, right, right. Oh, yeah. Well, there's a lot of division in the church, and one of the primary divisions we see, at least online, is Latin Mass or Novice Auto. So I'm going to ask you an unfair question. Latin Mass or Novice Order, which is better? I like both forms of the Mass for very different reasons. I think that those of it, I love the old Latin liturgy. I've

celebrated a very, I was Latin Mass when Latin Mass was not only not cool, it was career destroying. I was saying the Latin Mass was back in 1988, 89 when I was ordained a priest. 88, I was on the deacon, and I was up there in the, we had three parishes in my diocese at that time that were allowed under the indult of John Paul. But, you know, the bishop will hate you if you would do that. So I said, well, I mean, people need the mass. So I just, you know, and the Cardinal did ultimately give me permission. He says, are you sure, you're pretty young for that. I don't know.

Leave that for the old guys, you know. Anyway, you know, that's how that wrong that was now. But at the end of the day, I love it. But I do have respect for the new mass. And I want to emphasize that it's possible to celebrate the new mass very reverently, but unfortunately, it just isn't most places. But I will say what I do like about it is that it does engage the people. When I'm saying low mass in the old right,

I feel like are there people back there? Who cares? I mean, I'm talking to a mumbling, I'm mumbling, hopefully, but I mean whispering is what I mean to say Latin to a server and they're just kind of all sitting out there. And I'm not saying they're not, I don't want to, but it's not really engaging in the fuller sense.

So I like that the new mass does engage them a good bit more in making responses and, you know, things like that. But, you know, it engages, but I also like, I also like the beefier lectionary and so on. And I know people say, well, that's too many different readings. And you're, you know, you're like, well, okay. But to me, more scriptures. If you're allowed to have an opinion, that's yours. Yeah, yeah.

That's fun. So as far as though, the old mess, it's just, oh, my gosh, the awesomeness of it. And especially, I always specialize. I was licensed to fly solemn high. Solem high mass. And that was almost all the masses I did because they had a couple of other priests who could cover low mass. But to be able to sing, although priestly parts and so on was harder to find. So I would often do the solemn highs.

And so we had, you know, the priest, the deacon, the subdeacon. It's a beautiful, magnificent movement back and forth. It's reverend, the glorious music, the chant, yes, but we also had a lot of Renaissance polyphony to die for. You know, I start lifting off there like, John, Conchutino. Yeah, Joseph. Yeah. Joseph.

Anyway, but I just had to pull me back down, but I mean, just the glory. Yes. And that this is probably a lot like heaven is like. Yeah. And this is like the heavenly liturgy. It seems to better express what it is we're doing, at least, because I understand your point that the Novosota could be celebrated beautifully, but I also agree with your point that nine times

out of 10. If you're on vacation, you just pop into a local church. Yeah, it's not going to be real edifying. Even if it's just, you know, decent and okay, you know, the priest's not doing wacky stuff, but it doesn't really capture you. Everything is just so casual today. We're casual about everything in our so-called culture. What's the future of the Latin Mass in the church? It's going to grow. Give me your prediction for the next 50 years and not just on the ground, but from up top. Yeah. Well, I think if up top they continue to sort of push against it, it's only going to make it more intriguing. Why would they be so hard against this thing? You know, what's that all about? And I think that if they wanted to, I would go with Gamaliel. Remember what he said?

No. In the Acts of the Apostle, Rabbi Gamalio. Yes, of course. He said, they've got to get rid of these guys. This is terrible. He says, well, look, he says, if this is of God, no one can stop it. If it's not of God, it'll, and it's just a man, it'll go away on its own. Yes. Well, I think it's of God. Yeah. No, I'm not saying that this, I'm not even here to say we should exclusively go back to it. Right.

But I just think it's going to grow because people are tired of this. They want something different than just this kind of casual stuff that's not really that inspiring. I know we all have our own perspectives and all of our perspectives are limited. And so I'm not pretending to know anything more than anybody else, except just to say that from my little corner of reality, it seems to me that if the church would take its knee off of the neck of the Latin. Yeah. It would explode. Maybe slowly. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe it wouldn't explode. Maybe there's a lot more people who love the Nova Sordo, and I'm not given that enough credit. But I just see people will flock to it because, as you say, we live in such a drab, laxie-daisy world. I want to go somewhere and kiss the earth. Yeah. I want something to be reverent. Can something be reverent? Or is nothing allowed to be?

No, everything is casualty. We almost never get dressed up anymore. Now, to be fair, I live in Florida, and in August, it's very hard when I get dressed up. But even there, we should. There's plenty of air conditioning, you know, come on. That's true. Isn't it funny back when there was an air conditioning, people dressed to the nines? Come on.

Oh, man, they were really. But all that said, I think another thing about the, in terms of the liturgy, you know, Benedict always hoped for a kind of a cross-pollination to happen to that maybe if we had this other, first of all, it actually did a nice job of ending some of the liturgy wars. People had a place they could go and people could kind of sort it out for themselves. And now we're back to liturgy wars again

because of the restrictions. It just seemed to me like it would have been such a great, both loving, pastoral, and pragmatic move to open up the Latin Mass after the excommunication of the SSBX. Exactly. It would have been like, well, that's what John Paul did, right? He established Calaisia Day,

almost the very same time he had to do the excommunication. communications that time. So I think, yeah, it would have been a really powerful saying, hey, you all have a home here. You don't have to go with these leaders who are, you know, saying we don't have to obey the Pope when we don't think we have to obey the Pope or in a matter of faith and morals and so on. And so I think somewhere, yeah, it would have been, it was a, it was a missed opportunity. It would have been awfully, I think, a healing thing. And so, and I never quite understood. That was a part of Francis

that made me most sad. It's one thing to not prefer those older traditions. I'm glad we're done with all that stuff. Okay, that's your opinion, fine. But to sort of render literally psychologically imbalanced priests who still

wear a certain kind of hat or a cacic or say the Catholics who want the old mass that somehow they're psychologically unstable even, let alone. And some of the things he said were very hurtful. And I thought, well, you know, that doesn't sound like what a father ought to be saying to his children.

And that always broke my heart. And so I think people who go to the Latin Mass have been abominably treated. You know, and the saddest thing is, you know, everyone else, we're a welcoming church, we're your welcome, all are welcome, you know, the kind of excessiveness of that. And then all of a sudden, unless you do that, you don't even, you can't even come to our churches. You've got to be over in some shrine or over a hotel. You can't even come into our church. I mean, it was remarkably distinct from everything else he ever said. Welcome, welcome, welcome, all are welcome. And my gosh, it's just, anyway, it was both the singularity of his distaste,

as well as the selectivity of how he did things. And, you know, so I just say, you can, And anyway, alas, it's a lot of sadness in my heart about it. Really, I'm very, I have a lot of sadness. And I still know people who are very deeply hurt, and they're marginalized. He always says, go to the margins. But he created new margins when he did that. And we don't want you is the message. Don't come to our churches.

And if you do, you have to do it in some place other than our parish churches. And we complied in Washington. But thanks be to God, we have three rather nice sites like the Franciscan monastery, a very beautiful old church, you know. But I can say that we shouldn't have had to do that. And there was obviously some fear there, I think, too. They think that somehow this is going to negate all the liturgical movement that they did. And I think, you know, well, what do you mean by the liturgical movement?

Because if you read the council, the actual counsel, and what it foresaw as some liturgical things that would probably be a good thing to explore, a little more vernacular, but not the loss of Latin. You know, music, Gregorian Chanto still pride of place. And, you know, so people should have, it should also be trained in the Latin parts that pertain to them. And all these, well, none of that came. And we've got something that's much, much further away from the council documents.

It's a funny thing to say, but I think it's true that the old mass looks more like the mass the council talked about than the new mass, which went far beyond. and never mentioned turning the altars around. It never mentioned communion in the hand. It never mentioned, I don't know, so many things we have today. So I have a lot of sadness in my heart. But that said, I've settled down with the Nova Sordo,

and I'll be honest, a very lively gospel choir at the hour 11 o'clock. But I do more traditional masses at the other times. And I try to meet other people's needs, and I think it's legitimate still. It's allowed in the church to, to, you know, allow cultural things like gospel music or how the Africans have done a beautiful job

and integrating some of their ceremonial things like the offatory is a big deal when you go to an African liturgy, you know. Everyone comes up, the other's a kind of a, I'm called it dance, not like we mean liturgical dance, but it's, anyway, it's, so right now, there's a lot of diversity, and I can live with that, but I hope that maybe why not our diversity?

Yeah. What's your OCIA parish looking like? Do you have a lot of people inquiring into Catholicism? A good number. I don't actually have a huge parish. I have about 900 families, and I have about 400 some people in church on Sunday. It's a typical city parish in Washington. You got to remember our parishes were built before the automobile. Yeah. And they're a mile apart. Yeah. So, but that said, we've got a good number of people signed up this year. And I think, but it's not like bursting at the same. seems and I think we got to be honest though and Eric Sammons was saying the same thing he's saying yes is true the number seemed to be up but for everyone who enters the church about eight people leave right we're still hemorrhaging oh I agree with Eric what is your advice then to these new

Catholics maybe especially the ones who are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed what pitfalls do you encourage them or advise them to avoid yeah well I try I try I try to ask them to be realistic about the church. I think sometimes, not all, but many converts have very idealistic notions about the church. The church, they have the Eucharist, it has the Eucharist, and then they kind of come in and they see sort of sleepy people who don't seem like they understand the true presence. And I said, try to think of the church a little bit like Noah's Ark. It's going to get you home, but it's kind of smelly. You know, Ecclesia semper reformanda, always the church is always a need of reform. And so we're entering into,

an imperfect place. Jesus said, wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there will be a fight. Oh, wait, no, he didn't say that. I know. But I always like to remind them that there's, you're going to at times be discouraged. But you know, Christ, there was a lot for him to be discouraged about those 12 apostles for kind of, you know, and it was a pretty, pretty difficult operation, shall we say. And even if you read the acts of the apostles, you see, there were a lot of fights in the early church. And they were told, you know, to welcome the Gentile. Oh, yeah, right.

Yeah, I ain't coming over here, you know. And if they come in, they better live like Jews. And they had to have a whole council to sort of all that out. And sure, find out, the letter went out to all the churches saying, welcome them. And still, it was a lot of, I mean, it's, it's, we need to, I think, be careful to say that there's never been a perfect idealistic, a perfect time in the church. I would rate the 13th century as a pretty high watermark. But if you read the people who lived in the 13th century,

they thought it was the worst time ever. So I think somewhere we got to say, well, I'm here where, what does it say it says in the book of Syrac? Do not say, how is it that better things were better, previous times were better than these, but it is not in wisdom that you say this. So I think with all that in mind, I try to get them to realize.

the human dimension that they certainly encounter right away. I also think there is a understandable enthusiasm that converts bring with them. And I would suspect that many burn themselves out on a myriad of devotions. I think it was Jose Reyes. I'm not sure. But I think he said there are many devotions within the church's treasury, choose only a few, and remain faithful to them. Yes.

So I think this idea of a prayer. of a prayer rule. Yeah. It's very important. Yeah. Not as the maximum you'll do every day, but there should at least be a minimum. Minimum, yeah. So what are some of the devotions that you love?

Number one, of course, the rosary. Yeah. Got to be the rosary. And why is that? Well, I mean, our lady is just so insisted on it. And I like people to think that it's like a, as Padre Pio says, it's the weapon of our time. I actually have a rosary. I didn't bring it with me today, but the one I have back at the rectory is made out

22 caliber bullets. It's my 50-round clip. Boom, boom. I mean, but I think it's the best way we engage the battle, and it's the widest devotion, I think, in the church. Divine mercy is wonderful, too. Really wonderful. I really would certainly also strongly encourage Catholics

to follow the way of Louis-Marie de Montfort. You would. Yeah. And I know that there are some people who say this is a little much for them, some of the language. No, no. Why would you encourage that? for those who are unaware, maybe.

Well, let's put it this way, like the Montfort does himself. If it's true that God chose to come through Mary, he didn't have to. He could have just been on earth as a full-grown man. But he chose to come through Mary, and he came to us through her. Will he not continue to want to come through her in a spiritual way? That she can bring us a special devotion and a love, and that Jesus chooses to come through Mary, that that's a special place for us to say.

spend time in her heart. And so the basic idea is that I always like to put it this way. Jesus, we're encouraged to go to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And she, through her immaculate heart brings us closer to the sacred heart of her son. And he brings us to the heart of the father through the rent flesh that brings us back to the father, as the book of Hebrew says. The Pierce Vale. Well, this much is true. You have never met anyone with a true devotion to Mary who didn't also love the Holy Eucharist. Never. Right.

It's not possible. No. Yeah. And so I just say the surest way to Jesus, you know. Because it's imitating him. It's simply like, you know, especially non-Cathic, well, what's all this stuff? I said, well, you're asking why I love Mary and why I'm devoted to her and why do I entrust myself to her? Well, Jesus did all of that.

And I want to be just like Jesus. Yeah. No, I think that would be good advice for a new convert. And for those who are watching right now, who are either about to convert, who have just converted, you could set yourself a simple prayer rule, make a morning offering, pray the rosary, do an examination of conscience. I'm not saying that's all you do. But if you just did that and that was the anchor that grounded your day, you'd be off to a beautiful start. And the temptation, I think, for many of us, especially those who are new in the faith, is we get excited over novelty.

We'll hear about this or that chaplet or this or that scapula. And we mistake the feeling of novelty for devotion. Yeah. But being persistent in something. And Jose Marie Escriber famously said, Blessed be the monotony of Hail Mary's that purify you of the monotony of your sins. That's right.

Good way. Now, it's wonderful. I would also just add, you know, in terms of OCIA, we're calling it now, I would say that one of the problems I think we have in the church is what we call, you know, we love our big words, mystogia. We're terrible at, collectively anyway, terrible at mystogia.

We bring them through this long process, preparing them for the sacraments. Sacraments are celebrated on the Easter Vigil, and maybe they'll come for a few more sessions, and then summer kicks in, and there's not much left. And it's supposed to be a fairly vigorous period of mystogia, which is just that jazzy term that basically means post-baptismal catechesis. And in fact, in the early church, they didn't even really talk much about the sacraments. That was all done after they were received because it was the secret, the mysteries. And so you would be baptized.

And then there's a whole section, Ambrose, Augustine, all the great fathers have this whole mystagogical catechesis that they have. And they would spend, you know, the better part of a whole year, you know, beginning to integrate them and bring them more deeply into the mysteries that they'd celebrated. And so I wish sometimes in Paris churches we should almost have two teams, one that work the entrance. But once that's done, that's much more in time and in place, we spend a lot of energy on the RCIA we've always called it. All the rights and all that stuff. And that's good, it's good. But then all of a sudden Easter, now what? And some people, well, let's, I mean, you've heard the statistic probably as much as I have.

over 50% of people who enter into the church through RCAA are gone in five years. They're not coming to mass. Something isn't happening, you know. And again, if I had the Silver Bowl and I had all the time in the world, and I've always tried to at least spend some sessions and where I actually read Ambrose

and his catechetical mystogia and so on. But anyway, you see the vision. I mean, I think there's a lot of work we still need to do and keep that. Like, for example, even doing better with sponsors who are really supposed to be, like Godparents, who shepherd them through that first two years. It's just more of a formality.

You put your hand on the floor or whatever, you know, God parents. And I think somewhere we have to say, no, no, this is a real role. And the best times in my parish when I was, this is many years ago when many of us were younger and had more energy. but we had a training for sponsors

and we had, quote, professional sponsors. We developed a whole cadre of people whose job was just to sponsor these people and they might have two or three by the time, you know, as the years go by, but the idea is keep checking on them. If they're not coming, notice that and call and find out how are they doing

and, you know, explain and, you know, go to places with them, go tour the monastery. We have wonderful things in the Catholic ghetto of Northeast Washington. Washington. All the monasteries, the basilica's there, so many beautiful things to see there. So anyway, I think we could do a lot better. And I say it to my own detriment, too. I don't have everything up and running as the way it should be. Well, it's hard because as you're learning how to implement X, Y, or Z into a parish, the nature of the parish is changing. And so you have to

change how you do things. You mentioned it earlier that you would like to have families come and be there for 10, 20, 30 years. Yeah. But life is so transitory, again, back to perhaps having no culture or no place. Right. But then also, people are driving past parishes to go to others. Often, they're looking for a more reverent parish, but that makes it more difficult. Right.

How do I shepherd these people if they're not coming every week? Right. Yeah. What are some, let's wrap up on this question. What are some signs of concern and some signs of hope that you're seeing? I know we've discussed it, but perhaps. Well, signs of hope would be. Again, I am happy to see what I would say is a return to tradition,

especially among younger Catholics. My generation, the baby boomers, we just blew everything up. We just, you know, literally just iconoclast, boom, just tore out altars. It's so much destruction. And it's good to see people going back up into the attic and finding some of that stuff and saying, wow, this is neat. Yes. What, that old thing?

Yes. Yes, this whole thing. And so I'm very hopeful because I, you know, people say, well, what are we going to do to get the church this way or that way? Well, we don't have to invent something new. We have an ample tradition to go back and recover and move forward. Now, not every single thing from our tradition will always work at every stage, but we have so much stuff in the attic, so to speak,

and to just go up and bring it down and stop yelling and screaming at each other so much, that's old, that's no good. or that's, you know, that's not new. Or, you know, there's a lot of this sort of, yeah, I think it's almost emotional aversion to the tradition in my generation. Now, I'm, like I say, I'm the very tail end of the baby boom,

but I mean, we're the ones. We threw the revolution. We blew it all up. And so I think that I'm glad to see, I sometimes say to younger adults, we have a young adult mass and pretty well attended at my parish. And I say, I apologize. on behalf of my generation.

But that's where I find a lot of hope. I think the struggle is, we've got a lot of doctrinal uncertainty at the highest levels of the church. And we've got to get back to teaching with clarity. And there I am in my pulpit, trying to, you know, strongly. And they, well, the Pope didn't say,

he said this. You know, like, oh, geez, you know, you want headquarters at least have my back, you know. And so I don't know. You hear craziest things going on. And even in Rome, you know, the Cardinals, like recently, they just did this document on Nostratate, and they basically said that we want to avoid these concepts of one-world religion and so on. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

I want everyone to be Catholic. I think Jesus does. Yes, he does. He did say go to all the nations, did he? He didn't say just help them to be. better most of Hindus. Those were the words? We want to avoid?

Yeah, they talked about there's this problematic vision of a one-world religion. Oud omnes, unum sin, you know, Lord, that they might be one, you know. I mean, that was Jesus' prayer and his high priestly prayer, Father, that they may all be one, one flock and one shepherd. So Jesus never got that memo. But I mean, it's that kind of language. And for example, where you often hear, especially regarding evangelization, kind of really, what I would call very worldly thinking, we don't want to affect it.

anybody and we just want to make sure that we respect this tradition and that tradition. Well, respect it all you want, but at the end of the day, use that as a way to bring Christ, bring them to Christ. You know, people used to get on ships and go all over the world, missionaries. But again, some of us trace back to the problem that nobody thinks anybody's going to hell. Yeah. I mean, none of this really matters that much.

Come on, I mean, basically, it's all going to be a happy ending. And this is, so I don't know, but a lot of last. of doctrinal clarity, of course, the whole LBGT stuff. Oh, my gosh, what a mess. I mean, how the scriptures couldn't be clearer. And I understand, I don't know why some people have these attractions, but I respect them, but they're called to live celibately, or, you know, in effect, celibately, chastely.

There's no separate rules. I mean, scripture is very clear. And it's not just about homosexual stuff or same-sex attraction. It's about adultery, fornication, pornography, all these other things that are assailing people sexually. And so it's not as though we should just single it out. But the problem is they want the only, the price of admission is you have to agree with everything we say and do and celebrate it every June with us. You know, that's kind of the price of admission. It's not like, well, I certainly welcome people who are alcoholics or people who are struggling with their anger management.

to come to Mass. But I'm not going to tell you your anger's just fine. Go ahead and let them have it. Or just drink your head off. No. And I shouldn't be required to say or, you know, that this is just fine, all these other things. When God said differently. So, I mean, I could go down the list.

There's other things. Marriage. Oh, my gosh. And the annulments and just incredible. I mean, there's just so many doctrinal fuzziness today that it's very discouraging at time. and I've always believed very much in teaching with clarity. And that's why sometimes they get in trouble. That's why people love you too.

I mean that. That's not flattery. People really love you because of your clarity. Keep it up. Thank you. And sometimes you get lonely. But I mean, as I say, I would say, you know, really encourage your priests when they do speak. Yes.

Go up and say, that's the way it is, Father. Yes. I need to hear more of that. Yes. There's a lot of priests. You're like, well, I mean, it gets somebody upset. Yes. Well, I mean, I like the kind of idea of just treat everyone like they're a coward like you

and that they would benefit from the sort of things you coward like you are would also appreciate. Right. Well done. Please keep going. We got your back. But going back to hope, and I know we got to wrap it up. I would just say another sign of great hope for me, though, is that so many young priests, seminarians now too are just, they want the truth and they want to teach. They're not the rebels that my generation was entering into the seminary.

We're going to change the church, you know. that. And I see a great sign of hope in that, that even if, you know, it still remains that certain places in the church are going to be very baby boomerish, but until the last one of us dies, it may still be a problem. But at the end of the day, I'm very encouraged that the ranks coming behind are much more dedicated to the tradition and to the truth. Well, one thing people could do is honestly pick up your book, The Hell There Is, an exploration of an often rejected doctrine of the church. We'll put a link in. the description, buy one for yourself and buy one for your priest and give it to your priest

and great charity. Hey, I love you. Thank you for being a good pastor. We need to hear the whole truth that the church has to offer and we got your back if. Because of course, what we're not doing is saying, let's harp on hell to the exclusion of everything else. But what we've often done is harped on certain things to the exclusion of things that make our tummies hurt. And we don't really need a savior anymore if there isn't a hell. But thank God we got a savior. Here's the carigma in two sentences. You got it bad and that ain't good, but there's a doctor in the house and his name is Jesus. And if you give yourself to him, he'll go to work in your life and change the mess you are and the mess you made. That's the carigma. That's the, those eight sermons in the acts of the

apostles, the first preaching, they call it the carigma. It's, that's the content. That's it right there. Basically, it's a little bit of a longer form of repent and believe the good news. Gosh, you know, you stand a chance because you've got a savior. Amen. And otherwise, not looking so good. But we do have a savior. Amen. All right. Monsignor, Pope, thank you.

Thank you. So if you've made it this far, I'm willing to bet that you don't hate what you're watching. So you should, you know, maybe consider liking and subscribing. Go on. Consider it. Consider it. Who answers America's call for more energy? Our people do.

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