Pints With Aquinas - Addiction, Mission, and Recovery w/ Breanne Demarco

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Breanne grew up in the Diocese of Austin, Texas and was heavily involved in various outreach ministries until she graduated and left the country to serve as a full-time foreign missionary. After traveling to 13 countries she returned home and began to serve in ministry Stateside - giving talks at youth retreats and events all over the U.S. She spent some time in the convent discerning her vocation, and also as the Campus Minister at Texas State University. She recently got married and now has two children. She has been sober for 8 years and has helped many other addicts pursue recovery along the way. In her free time, which doesn’t exist anymore since she is a mother, she likes to ride motorcycles, shoot guns, and go to Adoration. Support the Show: https://mattfradd.locals.com Show Sponsors: Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Strive21: https://strive21.com/matt  

Brianne, that's it. I have you on the show. Yes. It's so great to be here. Yes. I interviewed you once upon a time for that covenant podcast. That's right. We did do that. It was a while ago. And I feel like we is like the tip of the iceberg.

Like we talked a little bit, but it was there's so much more to the story. So I'm glad to be here to share. Yeah. And I'm honored to hear it. So, man, how do we how do we begin? Where's one begin with your life story? I mean, I guess I'll start with a little background so people kind of understand. You know, I grew up Catholic, but it was like it was Catholic, but kind of like,

OK, we go to mass on Sundays and all right, we give stuff up for Lent and make sure to follow the rules and that sort of thing. But it. All right, we give stuff up for Lent and make sure to follow the rules and that sort of thing. But I would go on retreats and have these encounters and come to know God. But really I feel like there were already little pieces maybe missing maybe in my heart where I was looking for love and maybe looking in the wrong places.

I mean, I feel like at an early age, I kind of started down that journey. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Texas. Yeah, yeah, in the Austin area and great parish, super active. My mom was pretty active in the parish and so I had that kind of witness,

but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just remember like by 12 years old, already struggling with like self-harm or like having these just suicidal ideation kind of thoughts. I mean, and I was like 12 or 13 years old. And so it started young. It definitely, yeah. Do you look back and was, was there events that took place in your life prior to that that led to that?

You know, what's interesting is I, I feel like I have tried to psychoanalyze, you know, through years of therapy and talking to people and group recovery and that sort of thing. It's like, it would be nice if there was this pinpoint like, aha, this is why I was the way I was. And I think oftentimes in life, like, I want that. I want that clear-cut answer. And there were many times I questioned God, like, why am I the way I am? And I realized that I think if God answered me, it still wouldn't be good enough for me. Like I would still be like, okay, but why?

Like I would push back on his answer. If God himself told me why I was the way I was, I would inevitably find something else to question or to kind of try to pick apart. And so, I mean, we moved when I was like 10 and that was a tough adjustment. I feel like growing up, I mean, we moved when I was like 10 and that was a tough adjustment. I feel like growing up, I was a tomboy. I was the type to play with Ninja Turtles

and catch frogs and that sort of thing. And when we moved, we moved from a small town to Austin, which was a much bigger town. And it was just really hard for me to make friends. And I remember getting picked on and bullied and that sort of thing. And I kind of lost, it's like I lost a part of who I was. I think I was, it's sad that you could lose that

at such a young age, but like, okay, just an example, right? I loved pink flamingos, okay? Random, I know. No, they're great. And so I was so stoked. I convinced my parents to buy me these two plastic pink flamingos. And when we got them, I must've been like nine or 10 years old. When we got them, I was so stoked, I convinced my parents to buy me these two plastic pink flamingos. And when we got them,

I must've been like nine or 10 years old. When we got them, I was like, cool, we get to put them in our front yard. My parents were like, let's put them in the backyard so people don't see it. Right? And in my mind, I'm like, what? Like, these are so cool. Like how cool would they be in our front yard?

Like we should want people to see it. And so like, there was this like, oh, maybe I'm wrong for liking that. Like maybe I'm weird. And that same year, like I had my mom make me this pink flamingo Hawaiian shirt, okay. I'm like a nine year old girl rocking a Hawaiian shirt, pink flamingos on it.

And I remember I wore it to school. It was my favorite shirt. She had just made it for me. She sewed it, you know, and made it. And people picked on me for it. Like I got bullied for it. And I remember I took it. Like I got bullied for it. I remember I took it home, I never wore it again. And it's amazing how little instances like that,

they're so trivial, they're so small. And yet it was enough to get me to question like, maybe like I'm weird, like maybe I'm not okay. Maybe I shouldn't like these things. Like maybe I need to be normal. And so then when we moved to Austin, it was like, I was trying to figure out what is normal. How do I become popular?

How do I become accepted by my peers? And because my identity wasn't deeply rooted in Christ, it meant I was gonna find other ways to define myself. So it meant a lot of crazy, like I was the kid, like in middle school, I was the kid who was like, just desperate for attention. And so I would be like, oh my gosh, this is so gross. You dare me to eat it like you did.

Like this is so gross. It wouldn't be gross if someone ate it. You dare me to like, and I was just like starving for that. Like, like, look at me. Like I'm, I'm doing something different or like I'm funny or I'm cool. And, um, and, and I was very young already struggling with that. Hmm. Okay. So nine Austin, good, decent home life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it, I often wonder like, because I think I look back like, okay, well, I didn't have bad parents. Like they weren't beating me. And so it made, when I started to fall down paths of like addiction and that sort of thing, it made it really difficult because it was like, well, my parents didn't beat the crap out of me like all these other addicts I know. So what the heck is wrong with me?

It almost felt worse. Like it felt like if at the very least I had a terrible home life, this would make sense. And then I wouldn't be wrong. But now I felt like even more messed up because like, what the heck? I had great parents. All my needs were met. Like I had things.

So like now what's wrong with me? Yeah. It's important that we don't minimize the little traumas that take place to us when we're young or whenever you find yourself saying, wasn't that bad. I shouldn't,, gotta be careful. I remember I was seven years old and we had just watched He-Man, this movie that came out back in the day.

And we were looking through these magazines at school and I cut out this picture of He-Man from the movie because I was really excited to show my dad. And driving home on the bus, my friend took it and ripped it in half. And I remember that breaking my heart because I wanted to show my dad something, you know? And sure, now that I'm 40, like if that happened, that wouldn't bother me. But you've got to imagine yourself as that

sweet little kid. Like, how would you talk? How would I talk to my nine year old boy if he was crying because his friend ripped up something he wanted to show his dad? Yeah, I would show him tremendous comfort and sympathy. I wouldn't be like, get over it. Often we talk to ourselves like that, not realizing you're a nine year old girl. And the thing about trauma is I think oftentimes people like to put it on a scale like this trauma is worse than that trauma, but that's not actually how trauma works. What trauma is, is oftentimes it's a situation happens and we are not prepared to handle it and we internalize it.

Okay, so the girl on the playground who gets called fat might be more traumatized by that if she didn't have the proper ways of processing that and allowing it to like, there's obviously therapy now, you can go back and like move it around in your brain so that way you can process it properly. But if in the moment she didn't have those tools and that equipment, that can actually traumatize her

more than let's say a girl who was abused, but she saw a therapist right away, she was able to process it and she didn't internalize it because the one who internalizes it will spend her lifetime believing it as true. And I think that's why we have to be careful when we say, and oftentimes I hear, you know, I'll share my story with people and they'll say,

man, like, I don't really have a good conversion story. Like, God didn't really do anything big in my life. And again, we're putting it on this like scale of comparison of like, yours is bigger than mine or yours is worse than mine. And I think we just have to say like, no, like my story is my story. And what hurt me hurt me. And maybe it wouldn't have hurt you. Maybe it didn't hurt the next person, but it destroyed me. You know,

I also think in this victim culture, there's also this reluctance to look at what hurt us because we don't want to be the people that we now demonize ourselves. Right? Like I don't be a victim and my dad wasn't that bad. And I like how you put that because something could be objectively far worse, but subjectively, I interpret it in a way that may wound me more than if something objectively worse had taken place. Yeah. Like if I allow that to become a core belief of mine, that I'm fat, that I'm unlovable, that I'm unworthy, I will then spend the rest of my life living out of that wound and thus making decisions that are basically affirming it.

So then it makes it even more true. And then it becomes even harder to then one day overturn that versus the person who may be severely traumatized, but right away has a ton of resources and therapy and processes it, then they are able to move past it in a way that maybe someone else can't. And so, yeah.

I had this, my beautiful bride, you know, she grew up just feeling like she was too much and stuff. And I just thought to myself, I did not expect to cry this early on. It's not even a big deal. Oh, we're gonna get there. But I remember saying to my bride, I was like, Oh, I wish I wish I could have been. And if you interpret this wrong, it'll sound you won't understand it.

But I thought I wish I could have been an adult when you were nine. So I could have come and like picked up your chin and went, look at me. You're so good. You know, and just helped her believe. OK, so you're nine. And so what happens? Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, my just helped her believe. Mm hmm. Okay. So you're nine. And so what happens? Yeah. Yeah.

And so, you know, my time I'm 12, I'm already I'm struggling with body image issues. You know, I feel like I'm ugly again. Some bullying took place. And then there were some some abuse that took place on on a bus. And so now things are starting to compound a little bit because the move was traumatic for me. And I didn't tell anyone about it. Like I didn't tell my parents that I was really struggling. I was crying myself to sleep in my room at night as a little 10 year old girl. Like I didn't have the tools to process it.

And I'm just like, I'm just trying to figure stuff out and I'm not able to. And I'm looking to the world. I'm looking to others. I'm looking to literally anyone like pay attention to me. Like I feel like I'm dying and I don't think I should feel this way. And I remember the first time I had a sip of alcohol. I was at a, it was like a party, right? It's like kind of like a wedding party where like everyone's busy doing things.

And I realized like a lot of these adults are dancing, their drinks are just on the table. And that first sip, it's like, I drank that first sip, and then I wanted more, and then I wanted more, and I wanted more, and I wanted more, and I drank until I couldn't drink anymore. And I remember- At the wedding?

Yeah. Were you a parent or? I was sneaking it. I mean, everyone's dancing, they're all a couple of drinks in, they're not really paying attention to me, and I'm just going to, if someone comes back to the table,

they don't know how much drink. And I remember after having several drinks, I looked in the mirror and for the first time in my life, I felt okay. And I remember looking at myself in the eyes and I was like, I feel okay. Not even I feel great. I just felt okay. I didn't feel bad. And it was like, I would then spend the rest of my life just trying to feel that okayness. And some people might, you know, cause we'll get into some of my alcoholism and what that looked like,

but I think oftentimes people are curious of like, is it genetic? Is it something that happened to you? Is it habitual? Is it something that like develops? Is it a coping mechanism? What I have found in my life is like, asking that question doesn't actually help me solve anything. In fact, it doesn't, it never helped me to stop drinking

when I was ready to stop drinking and I couldn't because I was a full-blown alcoholic at that point. Knowing why I was that or like, where did it come from or how did this, that wasn't helpful. And so already at that age, I just knew, like it seemed like it was, like there was something there because I felt okay with that thing. And- How old were you at this wedding? Probably 13.

Okay, yeah. I think I might've been about 13, maybe 14 is kind of pushing it. And, but you know, I didn't have access to it. So, you know, there wasn't really, it couldn't have become this like big thing all of a sudden because I didn't have access to it. So, you know, there wasn't really, it couldn't have become this like big thing all of a sudden because I didn't have access to it. But then I started struggling in high school, like bad.

I was struggling so bad. And I came home one day, I told my mom, I said, I can't do school anymore. And dropping out seemed like a great idea, but I knew she wasn't gonna let me drop out because I was a freshman. So what is that, like 14? She wasn't gonna say yes to that.

So I was like, how about I homeschool? And she was like, okay, like you think you can do that? I was like I could teach myself. So I Dropped out slash homeschooled, but it wasn't It was because I was having such a hard time. Like I felt like I couldn't fit in I felt like Like nothing I did was good enough Like there were always kids that were smarter than me, funnier than me, prettier than me. Like, and it was just this again,

like I didn't have the tools to cope with that. I didn't have someone to talk to. I was in it all alone and it was overwhelming. It was crushing me. And I was like, I'm not okay. And so pulling away from the situation seemed like a good solution, but it wasn't because now I am even more isolated

than I was when I was in school because now I'm at home all day by myself. And um, did you have close friends? Yes and no. I mean, I think, I think I kept people at a distance. I had friends, but there was also this distance of like, no, no, no, like, you couldn't possibly love me for me. Like you couldn't, so it was like, it had to keep people a little bit, yeah, we'll be friends, but you're not gonna get to know me in the way that like, a true friend would get to know me. And so when I pulled out to homeschool,

it was not even a big deal. Every now and I kind of hang out with my friends, but for the most part I isolated. Which for an addict, let me tell you, is not a great thing, because at this point, I guess if I'm high school, pornography addiction is starting to ramp up because now I'm at home with computer access, right? Was your mom at home while you were homeschooling or were you? She was doing like a part-time gig. I think she was doing youth ministry at the church part-time. And so she was at home a lot, but not always.

You know, she would leave for chunks of time. If I ever throw you off the story and you want to go somewhere, please just ignore the question. But I mean, you talked about pornography addiction ramping up. So when were you first exposed to that? Well, OK, so the very, very, very first time I was exposed, I didn't actually we were at a sleepover, we must've been about,

maybe 11, maybe? And it was girls sleepover and she had a computer in her room and she pulls this stuff up and my little sister's with me and my little sister was seven. And so when this stuff popped up on the screen, I took my little sister and we left the room and we went to the living room. And I told her, I said, let's just lay down out here, you know, it's late at night

or whatever. And I told her, let's just go to bed. And the other girls kind of stayed in the room and they stayed up for a bit. And I went home and I told my mom, because I, again, I grew up in the church, so I knew right from wrong. I knew this was not okay. And, and so, yeah, so that was technically my first exposure, but we didn't really see anything. But then fast forward to middle school when I was struggling and I got ahold of some magazine, some Cosmo something, and it had some detailed article in there about this girl and these relationships

she was having with this older man. And just very graphic, like very detailed. And I don't know, it was being passed around the locker room or something and somehow I ended up with it. And it was just enough to spark my curiosity. At this point, we had a computer, it was a family computer, so there was a password and we had to get permission to use it and it was in the family room.

But still I managed to look it up and it was yet another way that I felt like, okay, And it was yet another way that I felt like, okay, like feeling, getting this high, felt okay. But the weird thing about it is I felt okay while simultaneously feeling awful at the same time, because I did know it was wrong. And I felt like gross and dirty and shame and all that sort of stuff.

So that, but that it was like, there was this high there though, because in addition to it, you know, just having like biological reactions with my hormones and that sort of thing, because at this point I'm in like puberty. In addition to that, there was this like secrecy of like, I have to get away with this.

And so I had to time things, because again, it was in the family room. So I had to convince my mom, I need to access the computer, she have to get away with this. And so I had to time things. Cause again, it was in the family room. So I had to convince my mom, I need to access the computer. She had to come type the password. And then I had to make sure that nobody walked in. And so it became, there was an added level of like a high, so to speak, a rush of getting away with it. And so that ramped up big time.

And then I'm 15 years old and out of nowhere, I'm like, I had never done drugs, okay up until this point, right? I'm 15 years old and I'm like, I'm gonna do cocaine. Like just out of nowhere. Now, was that like a demonic thought? Like did, like where did that come? Was that an impulse?

Was that like mental illness? Where did that thought come from? I have no idea. But in my mind, it made sense because in my mind it's like, well, if I'm going to do drugs, I'm going to do drugs. Like, why would I waste my time on these like other like little kid drugs or like experimenting or whatever? Like, why would I do that?

Like, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And that was at 15. And by the time I was 16, I had my first overdose. How did you get access at 15 to cocaine? Oh, gosh, I don't even remember. I mean, I reached out to a couple of friends and like, you know, you show up to your first drug deal and you're just like. It's just this unreal experience because like you've only seen it in movies and stuff

and you don't know what's going to happen. And you're young. It's like I didn't have a car side. It had to be somewhere I could walk to, but it couldn movies and stuff and you don't know what's gonna happen. And you're young, it's like, I didn't have a car. So it had to be somewhere I could walk to, but it couldn't be at my house. And so I was at this nearby place and it didn't take long. I mean, by 69, I overdosed and I woke up on my parents' bed

and I'm looking at the ceiling fan and my mom has a little cup there for me to pee in because it's like a drug test. And I tested positive for like Coke and PCP and Xanax and hydro, like a bunch of different drugs all at once. And that's why like the overdose happened, shut down my system, you know. Who took you to the hospital? Well, so interestingly enough, when I passed out,

at the time when I was this age, I wanted to go into law enforcement or the military. And my mom knew that if she took me to the hospital, like I might end up with a record. Like they could then, like there's a paper trail of like, oh, she had an overdose and that could potentially ruin the possibility for me pursuing my dream career. So she called a nurse friend or whatever,

made sure I was like not gonna die die. And, but I remember like when I was looking at the ceiling fan and I woke up, my mom is in tears and she says to me, she's like, you could have died. And I looked at her square in the eyes and I said, I wish I would have. Because already at 16 years old,

like already like I would have. Because already at 16 years old, already I was struggling and I couldn't figure out. It was like, if you're ever at the beach and you try to grab the sand and the wave comes and it just sucks the sand between your fingers. I was grasping at sand and something helped me, something made me feel better, something complete me, something, and nothing was working.

And so I didn't actually want to die, but I also knew that already what I was getting into, I was already miserable. I mean, I was already probably watching porn every day at that point, by 16. By 16, I was definitely addicted. I don't know if it was daily yet, but it was close. And, you know, drugs and stealing and, you know, just looking up stuff online of like, you know, how to make explosives or like just looking to try to cause

chaos, right? To destroy myself and everything around me. And by 18, by 18, my parents are like, all right, you've got a problem. Like, and when they said that, I knew they were right. So they said, we wanna help you though. Like we know you have a problem and we love you

and we wanna help you. And so they sent me to rehab. Well, they offered, they weren't gonna like make me, but I said yes, because I was like, I'm dying and I don't know how to live. And this like, I'm not, I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to make it past 18. And if I don't figure something out.

So I went to rehab for 35 days. Okay. Where was this and what was it like? It was out in the middle of the nowhere desert. You know, it was at the time, at the time it was the only facility in the US that was acknowledging pornography as an addiction. This was back in like 2008. So it was like, a lot of places still were like,

well, it's a problem or like, yeah, it's a guy thing. But this was the only place I was like, no, no, no, like there's stuff going on in the brain here that's like very much addiction. And so they recognize that. So I went there for the pornography addiction, but also for chemical dependency issues, abusing drugs and that sort of thing.

It was a great experience. When I got there though, it was just like, I didn't know what to expect. And it really was nice to have like everything stripped away. Like they wouldn't even let you have coffee or sugar. Like they took everything, no caffeine, no sugar. Like if you wanted to soda, it had to be a diet caffeine-free Coke, okay.

Because they didn't want you to cross a dick. I mean, they would, they made their ketchup from scratch. That's how serious they were about no sugar, right? And you should have seen us addicts, man. We were all just feigning for like sugar. Well, we would sit around and talk about Snickers bars. I mean, we were just like anything, right? Caffeine or or a Coke or something. How did people react differently to coming off of those drugs,

including sugar and coffee? They react differently. Was there a similarity to it? You know, it was interesting because I felt like it was, it was harder because of that. Like all of us who were, and some people were coming, man, some people were going through some serious withdrawal. I mean, coming off of hard stuff and- And are they isolated?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you're detoxing from something heavy, they kind of put you, you're in this like, this room that's attached to like where the nurses all hang out. And so, you know, my first day there, I see a tissue box just fly out of one of the rooms and this chick's coming off of meth and she's, you know,

she's pissed and, you know, later on she apologized to all the nurses when she kind of like came to her senses, you know, but it was like, it was, you spent the first few days there so they can make sure like you're not gonna die and you're okay. And then once you got off of that, then you like ended up like in a room

Further off, but they had all sorts of things there to really help You know they had like the you know You can ride a horse or you can go swim laps in the pool or there's like acupuncture They had all this stuff and all that stuff was great but what was better was like the therapy the therapy, the very intense work you were doing to focus on your addiction and what was going on. The problem with that, at least in my case, was a lot of times they want to know what your trigger was.

If we could just figure out what your triggers are, then you can avoid your thing, whatever your addiction is. And so I sat down and it's like, all right, all right, what triggers me? Like, okay, when my mom says this, that triggers me. Okay, well, when she says that, that triggers me. Okay, well, when the weather's nice, like I get pissed. Or like when the weather's bad, I get pissed. Or when the weather's like, like, it was very,

I quickly realized like, like literally everything. Like air is my trigger. Like being alive makes me want to do these things. Just breathing air. And I was like, I'm screwed. Yeah, like I'm screwed. If just being alive drives me like I have these compulsions to to self harm or to do these, you know, addictive behaviors.

What hope is there for me? Because my triggers list is endless. And that must have just driven you deeper into that pit of isolation, right? Like if other people have this nice little puzzle piece, I don't. There's something deeply wrong with me at my core. Like what the heck is wrong with me? Because everyone else is saying they're like, oh, well, you know, this is my trigger and this is my trigger. And those are the things that, you know, and I'm like, what? Like, that's it? That's the, those are the only things. Like, I mean, like I trigger myself.

Like me being who I am is enough to get me to say, like, let's get messed up. Let's do some drugs. Let's drink till we can't think anymore. So that was hard. That was hard realizing that. But I think it was a good thing to realize early on. But it was a hard thing to realize early on. Because now what's the solution? And so in my mind I'm like, well, there's no saving me. So I get out of rehab and-

And was there any kind of help there? Did you feel like something was resolved? Did you have any hope for the future? Yes and no. The big help was I was introduced to the 12 step program there. You go to 12 step meetings. If you have problems with alcohol or drugs. Some people were there for other unrelated things.

But if you have those, you go to 12 step meetings. And that was huge because that would one day, spoiler alert, one day save my life. All right. We'll get to that. But we were in a group therapy once and they put you in your groups based on like what you're there for. All right. we'll get to that. But we were in a group therapy once and they put you in your groups based on like what you're there for. All right, so all the alcoholics are with the alcoholics and all the drugies are with the drugies and all that, I was with the sex addicts. Okay, now I'm 18, I was there primarily for porn.

All right, but a lot of the people in the sex addict group were like there for like infidelity and that sort of thing too. So it was kind of a mixed group. And one of the times you share your first step. You basically go through this whole, this is everything I've ever done. This is how my addiction has destroyed my life.

And I remember I shared a lot of the stuff that had been going on with me. And a guy in the group therapy said, I would never let any of my children go near you. And he said that, like right after I like, I opened up and I said, here's all my wounds, here's all my bags, here's the ways that sex addiction has ruined my life.

And he said that. And it was- Is this just another- He was just another guy in the group. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And it was just like, I left the group and I remember like I'm in the desert, right? And I see the cactus and I'm like, man, I just want to jump in that cactus. You know, like that's where I belong. Like this was your deepest fear that I

can't let people close. Right. If they do, I'll finally open up because I'm like, this is rehab. This is a safe place. This is like where I'm supposed to like get better. And it was like a dagger in the wound. And I was like, ah, and you know, kind of shame on the group moderator, the therapist who was there, she should have maybe intervened and told him something. And I think eventually she, cause I told her, I pulled her aside at some point and I was like, Hey, that really hurt. Like I was burying my soul and that man said that to me and he was a grown, he was like twice my age, you know, and I'm 18. Like I still feelying my soul and that man said that to me and he was a grunt He was like twice my age, you know, I'm 18 like I still feel like a kid

you know and and such for a grown man that like it was very intimidating and So was rehab helpful. Yes. Was it hurtful too? Yes and so then I get out of that and I'm like, alright, I got to figure this stuff out because like I Don't know that I'm gonna get the help that I need and I don't know where it's gonna come from, I got to figure this stuff out because like, I don't know that I'm going to get the help that I need. And I don't know where it's going to come from, but I got to keep trying. And um, your parents hopeful? I think so.

I mean, they spent a lot of money on rehab. Yeah. It was like, and this was, this was back in 2008. So like 2008 money, it was like 45 grand for me to go for 35 days. So and their insurance wouldn't cover it because they're like, this is not an actual condition or whatever. So I think they were helpful,

but I was a little more skeptical because I kind of knew the insanity of my own mind and it just felt like, man, because I could see other people in therapy and things were working for them, things were clicking. They were like, we had trauma week where you go through all your trauma and people were having these massive breakthroughs.

They were processing this childhood trauma and stuff. And I'm sitting there like, wasn't my trauma? And it was hard, it was hard for me to figure out. So already I'm kind of like, okay, I don't know where I'm supposed to head, but I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try my best. Because again, I didn't want to die, but the suicidal ideation kept coming up

because it seemed like the best option. If the therapist couldn't save me, if the $45,000 rehab couldn't save me, if my parents couldn't save me, if pulling out of public school couldn't save me. Like if all these things I tried to like again grasp at the sand here, like if none of that worked, maybe it would just be easier to just not be alive. And so I fought that for a very long time. And were you out of high school or homeschool at this point? Yeah. So I'm 18 and, and then here's thing. Out of nowhere, boom, God calls me to go do

mission work. And I'm like, Lord, I'm a hot mess. And I just got out of rehab and there's no way you're actually calling me to go do mission work. And I was like, thanks for the offer, but that's not for me. So my mom says, you should go check out this Catholic company. They're based out of South Louisiana. And I was like, why does everything have to be Catholic with you, Mom? Cause I thought like, if I go do something, I'll do like Peace Corps, you know,

like I'll go do something nice for some people. And maybe that'll help me. Like maybe it'll set me straight, but she wanted it to be Catholic. So I was like, all right, I'll go check this place out just to appease you, mom, and get you off my back. So I go to this place, it's called Family Missions Company,

they're based in South Louisiana, and they have a come and see. And I go there and that first night, I'm like, I'm on the porch, I'm sucking down cigarettes, and I'm just like, this is not for me. These people are praying all the time, they love Jesus too much. They're like always happy. And I just, it felt like, like, there's just no way God is going to call me to this. There's just no way. And, and I left there like, all right, God, I gave it a chance. I went to the come and see, right?

Cute idea, Lord, but not for me. And so I went and I got a job as a security officer in downtown Austin, and that's kind of the gig I was doing. And again, I'm trying to figure out this whole, I'm trying to navigate this like recovery thing, failing at it pretty miserably, but trying to get back up on my feet. And the Lord was so persistent with the calling. It's like every time I'd open scripture,

it would be like, so all you have and give alms to the poor, grow out to all the nations and preach the good news. And I would slam the, it would be like, sell all you have and give alms to the poor, go out to all the nations and preach the good news. And I would slam the Bible shut and be like, ah, like, and try to move on from it. And I remember this one day, I was, I had called a military recruiter in the morning and I left my cell phone number on his, he didn't answer.

So I left him a message. I left my cell phone number with him. And I talked to Family Adm admissions company days, weeks. I had called them and they didn't, like left them a message and I was waiting to hear back from them and weeks had gone by. So I said this prayer, okay, because they didn't have my cell phone. They had my home phone. I said this prayer to God. I said, look, whoever calls me back first today is like what I know your will is. Okay, now I stacked it pretty hard in favor for that because first of all, recruiters,

I mean, come on, they like answer on the first ring. Of course, the recruiter is going to call me back that day. He's going to call me back within an hour. And he has my cell phone. And my phone rings about an hour later and I'm like, haha, I'm going to join the military. And I answer it's my mom and she says, hi, I just wanna let you know, a family missions company just called. They left a message on the house phone and I'm just letting you know.

And I was so mad because she didn't have to do that. She could have waited until I got home from work and been like, hey, you have a message on the answering machine, right? But she felt the need to call me while I was at work to tell me I had a message. And I was like, man, like I stacked that hard. Like there's just no way. And so I kept praying throughout the year and I just kept feeling this tug. Another time, like this, um, this job I was going to land instead of security

job was going to get a job at the local jail. And the next day on the front page was the jail I was applying to, and it said how they were laying people off. And it was on the front page of a paper. So God put it on the front page. Now, here's the crazy thing. I didn't read the newspaper. I didn't get the paper. But that day, for some reason, I had a newspaper in my hands,

and it was on the front page. Okay, again, another sign. At this point, I'm like, he's not gonna stop. Like God is calling me to do something that I don't wanna do. Like it felt like some of the prophets, you know, who are like trying to run from God's call. And I'm like, I'm gonna get swallowed by a whale

or something if I don't watch out. And so I went to daily mass and I gave God one last ultimatum. I said, look, Lord, we're playing games, you and I. Like you and I are playing these games and I'm tired of these games. I said, if you really, really want me to do this, I need a sign and I need one right now.

And I was like, okay, amen. You know, and I sat down and I waited for Mass to start. And that day we had a visiting priest and he walks onto the altar. And the very first thing he says before he starts Mass is he says, I just want to offer up this mass for all those who are discerning mission work. Now, after you've had this conversation with our Lord, now I have been massed many times

and I've heard priests offer mass for those discerning religious life or those doing mission work, but never the combination of those discerning mission work. And I'm looking around like, did everyone else hear that? Like, and my heart sank because it was not the answer I wanted, but I had peace. My heart sank because it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like I want to live my life. I wanted to like go down this career path of like joining the military and then getting on with a, like a police task force.

Like I wanted to bomb squad. Like I had this whole idea of like what the military and then getting on with a police task force. Like I wanted to bomb squad. Like I had this whole idea of like what I was gonna be. And I was gonna prove to the world that I was strong and capable and confident. And you want me to go live with a bunch of poor people that I don't even care about in other countries? And so like I was disheartened, but there was so much peace.

It was like, I was like, okay, Lord, all right. You want this, I don't want this, but do you want this? I know you got my back, let's do it. So I called up Family Missions Company. A year later, after swearing I would never go back there because they were crazy Jesus people, I was back there to enter formation. And I just so happened to be in an intake

with three people who were double majors in theology and catechetics from Steubenville, okay? All right? And I'm sitting there and that first week is like hell for me because like, I was doing lines of cocaine and these kids are talking about like some eschatological, like I'm like, what is that? The study of escalators? Like, I have no idea, like what is going on? And they're so smart and they know like scripture, you know, I felt like, like, you know, when Nacho Lever was like, people don't think I know a buttload of crap about the gospels, but I do. Like, I was trying to like prove myself. Like, I know, like, I don't know

what y'all are talking about, but I do know some things, right? And it was so intimidating. And, and that first week I was so miserable. And I took it to prayer again. I was like, all right, Lord, remember this was your idea and I cannot do this if I'm going to be miserable. And I took it to prayer again. I was like, all right, Lord, remember this was your idea. And I cannot do this if I'm going to be miserable. And I'm internalizing a lot of it. And like, I already feel less than because of all these wounds and insecurities I have. And because of my past, right? Now, on top of that, they're so much smarter. And like, they know all this Jesus stuff that I don't. And I thought I was pretty Catholic. Are you doing lines of Coke now? No. Okay. Although I had a pill problem leading up right to intake. And so I had to like cold turkey that.

And so that was a miracle that God helped me do that. And again, it just, it felt, I just knew God was calling me. I mean, it felt so counterintuitive because it's like, no, I have this other stuff going on. Don't you want me to do this stuff? But at some point I had to realize like, maybe this is the next step for me. Like maybe, we tried the rehab,

we tried the psychiatry stuff. We tried, like maybe the next step is to get out of my isolation, to be of service, to travel around the world, to get sick and get diarrhea in other countries, like to eat the weird foods and to surrender myself completely to God's will and allow him to work through the poor, the poorest of the poor,

those who couldn't possibly have anything to offer me, of the poor, those who couldn't possibly have anything to offer me to allow God to use them to restore those broken pieces in who I was. And so I had to be like, all right, Lord, like do it. I'm miserable at this intake thing. And the next day I woke up and it was like night and day, like all of a sudden I was like, I love these people. I love, I love missions, I love these people. I love missions.

I love all these things. And so we spent time in formation and we get sent out. I committed to two years of it and I spent time all over in all sorts of countries. And I have so many wonderful stories for missions. So many wonderful stories. And I love, I wish we would learn from the Mormon church, cause I love that they make their young people do this. They're like, yeah,

go get out of your head, get out of your world. Go be uncomfortable for what you believe in because like I'm Catholic and I'll go to mass and I'll say all the parts and all of, but do you want me to go talk to other people about you Lord? Like that's, now I'm uncomfortable or like learning another language is so humbling. It's so humbling because... It's exhausting. It's exhausting, right? And I remember my first Bible study, I was in Ecuador. My Spanish is terrible. And I remember we went to a Bible study right away. And I have this Bible

that has like the English column and the Spanish column next to each other. So like, as they're reading the Spanish, I can see exactly what it says in English. And I have so much to say, so much to say about this reading because I'm like, oh, I love this. And it gets to me and I have to say it in Spanish. And I remember I just said something like, I like this reading because it's true because that's all I knew.

That's all the Spanish I knew. And everyone's like, okay, like this is the missionary. Like she's the most teachers about Jesus. That like, that was it. And I just, I was so embarrassed because I had so much, like I went from feeling like a smart articulate person in the U.S. to like a child in another country

because I'd be at the store and I didn't know the word for candle. And I'm like pointing or I'm trying to describe them. Like it felt, it felt awful. But it was like, every day I got up and I did it again out of love for the Lord. Like, all right, Lord, like you're humbling me big time and it hurts, but I'm gonna do it for you

because you called me here. And that was a big part of it. But I think the other big part that I really got out of it is a deep love for the universal church that I could have read about it maybe in like Sunday school or seen like a cool, like powerful YouTube video with like, you know, music and stuff like that, very moving. But God gave me firsthand experiences.

I'll never forget, I was in Ecuador, okay? We had hiked, okay, first of all, we drove to the Amazon jungle, and then we drove another couple hours further in, and then we got to like, there's not even roads anymore, so we get out of the Jeep and we're like hiking into the jungle. We are deep in the jungle, okay? And you know, we're like, with the machetes trying to get through and get to this tribe, we have a priest with us and he speaks Kichwa, which is the local language. And we get there and we have mass,

and I'll never forget, I'm standing there, deep in the jungle, and we're in this like little pavilion, right? And the priest has this like little headlamp on, because it had gotten dark by the time we got there. And he goes to like raise the host, and behind me is like all the noises of the jungle, right? The weird birds and the bugs

and the things that are gonna eat you. It's all behind me. And I'm staying there listening to this mass in Kichwa, and yet I know all these parts. And when he holds the host up, it's glowing because he's got the little headlamp. And it just felt like, here's Jesus, like the Jesus that I know,

like I came to the edge of the earth. I'm deep in the middle of the jungle and here you are Lord. You came just as far like you are everywhere. And having that moment and just this deep love for like, this is the universal church. And seeing that that was like penetrated to my soul in a way that like I knew my faith could not be shaken. And then another profound experience was World Youth Day 2010, maybe it was in Madrid. Okay. Okay. Old boy Benny was up there, Pope Benny, and he comes out,

okay, we had hiked for miles and miles and miles and four million people, right? You know, you're in a giant airfield or a giant place and there's four million people and there's flags from all over the world and we're standing there. And next to us is like a group from maybe Brazil and then over here is a group from like Poland and we can't speak the language,

we're all just like, yeah, you know, giving each other thumbs up, hi, hi, okay. And here's what's incredible. All of a sudden, it's time for adoration, right? And so like Jesus comes out and four million people fall on their knees in adoration. And all you can hear is the sound of the flags flapping in the wind.

And four million people fall silent before the Lord. And these four million people from all over the world speaking all sorts of languages at once break out in song, singing the O solitaris hostia in Latin. Four million voices. I couldn't talk to this Polish guy and this Brazilian guy two minutes ago, but now him and I are adoring the same Lord on our knees, singing the same words to a song that's been sung for a thousand years. And it's like missions, traveling the world, seeing the church in other countries, solidified my faith in a way that I,

like I just knew it would never be shaken. And I needed that because my life was about to get much worse with the addictions and all that stuff, okay. So- For those who are thinking we're wrapping up. Yeah, yeah, okay. It's who are thinking we're wrapping up. Yeah, okay. It's about to get worse. Oh yeah.

And it was like, I could see, and obviously God used the poor to teach me so many things. We'll get to like, you know, the homeless ministry that I did post that, because I always say that missions ruined me for the better. Like it did, it like ruined me because I had this deep love for the poor now and the humility. And I met saints, I met saints in these other countries.

You know, I remember I went to visit this man in Mexico. I didn't know why I was there because my Spanish was still pretty terrible, but I knew he had just had one of his legs amputated. So I was like, all right, you know, I'll go and I'll sit and I'll pray with him and, you know, bring him something to eat. So I'm sitting at the foot of his bed and he's missing a leg and his other leg is wrapped up in a bandage.

And he's kind of talking to me and I'm picking up every other word. I don't know exactly what's going on or why his leg was amputated, why this one is in a bandage. And I hear a word that kind of sounds like gangrene and then he like pulls off the bandage and his foot is like right here.

And he had gangrene on that leg and it got chopped off and it had spread to this leg and now this leg was gonna need to be chopped off. Okay. And I'm looking at this man and I'm like, okay, like, well, would you like to pray? Like, cause now I don't know what to say. How do you console a man who's about to lose his other leg?

He just lost one of them. He's about to, I mean, he's going to lose the other one. And in Mexico, particularly in the poor where we were, if you didn't have your legs, you didn't go anywhere. You were going to be in your house for the rest of your life. There were no like handicap ramps and like nice wheelchairs. If you did not have your legs, you were going to be bedridden in your house

for the rest of your life. I mean, it's essentially like a house arrest sentence in a way. And so I look at this man and I'm like, all right, you know, let's pray. What would you like prayer for? And I asked it kind of rhetorically, like, of course he's going to want prayer for healing for this other leg. Like, look at it. It's like, going to fall off. And he pauses and he looks out the window and he says, you know, I just want to pray for everyone else out there in the world who's like really struggling. And I was pissed because I'm like, are you kidding? You want to pray for the world, the world that forgot about you,

the world that doesn't give a crap about the fact that you're about to be bedridden for the rest of your life. Like the world that has moved out that doesn't even know you exist, you wanna pray for them? And like, it showed like the bitterness in my own heart, right, because I'm like, that's not like, but it showed that like he was a saint because that's what he wanted to pray for.

In his situation, he was worried about others and not himself. And he wasn't like even angry at God for like, why would you like, I already lost one leg, like you're gonna take my other one too? And so I got to meet these saints in these other countries and that's a little fair, I mean, it did so much for my faith.

And I'm like, okay, it's like saints exist. It's not just something I've read in a book. It's not just like the little statue I see in mass, like I've met them. So I come back from that. You know- Is this after World Youth Day in Germany or? Yeah, so I did, yeah.

You're still doing missions after. Right, so I was rather itinerant. Our mission company normally did, like you spent a year in one place, or some places like Taiwan, you would spend two years because the language was such a, by the time you got a hold of it, you know, but, but the way at the time that I was there, they needed people to kind of be around, move around a lot more. And so they, they had me doing that. I was leading trips, different places. And so I ended up going to like seven

or eight countries in that time. Um, is your drug and porn addiction dormant at this point? It's amazing. So it's a grace, right? It's a grace. I would say I was not indulging in those behaviors. It certainly was not healed in any way, but it's like God put a stop in it to give me a little reprieve so he could work on these other things

he really needed me to know because it was gonna get much worse. And he's like, no, you need to know my voice. You need to have a prayer life. You need to have like a deep faith because you're gonna be rocked and you're gonna be crushed and you need this. Looking back, I can say that.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, it's all right. Yep. So then I get out of missions and I come back Stateside. And it was like, here I was, I had just gone like two years without, you know, any sort of addiction issues.

And the moment I get back, it's like, like nothing happened. Like I'm back to the races. And this time I'm 21 now. Are you living at home? No. So I came back Stateside and I was there in South Louisiana. I was helping with like kind of there at the mission base. And then I was doing like some like local ministry stuff. Also met a lot of saints down there too. Let me tell you, there are people who are doing some amazing things all over. And so I was rubbing shoulders with a lot of great

people, but it's like, okay, now I can buy alcohol. And so what's to stop me from doing good stuff during the day and then just getting wasted at night? And you can only maintain that for so long before it just, that's the thing about alcohol. Like for me, it felt like, I got a handle of this. Like, I like to drink, I just like beer, it's not a big deal. And then it's like, like, I got a handle of this. Like, you know, I like to drink. I just like beer, you know, it's not a big deal.

And then it's like, all right, well, now I'm needing to drink more often and more throughout the day. And now I'm watching pornography more because it's like I get drunk and now I'm like- Your defenses are down. Yeah, and now it's like, I don't care what happens. And then I watch pornography and I feel terrible.

And then I have this eating disorder that starts up at this time too, because I lost weight in missions. And I got a bunch of like affirmations and praise. And I was like, oh, you look so good. Oh my goodness. And I was like, well, like people really like me when I've lost weight.

And so that kind of started this vicious cycle of like bulimia, binging and purging. And then that gets mixed up with the alcohol and the pornography. And now it's, now it's like this weird rinse, lather, repeat cycle. I get caught in almost, almost like a tornado. It's like, all right. I drink too much. I watch porn. I feel bad that I watch porn. So I binge and I purge. And then I drink because I just binge and I purge. And so like my stomach's empty. So now I can get drunk faster. It's like just insane. I mean, I'm losing my mind in this.

And... Did anyone know about this at this mission? Did you get a confession? I had one person kind of call me out on it once. She's like, you know, cause we were at a retreat, we were helping out on this retreat. And like, I kept going to like throw up and stuff. And she kind of like said something about it.

And of course, like any addict, I like denied it right away. Like, I don't know what you're talking about sort of thing. Um, and so she knew, but it wasn't enough to like, like, I don't think she knew what to do. Like, were you going to confession for the alcohol, the alcohol? Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was going, especially with the pornography, I alcohol. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was going, especially with the pornography,

I felt like, you know, as an alcoholic, like I felt like, like I didn't have a problem. So I wasn't confessing the alcohol very much, but I was confessing the pornography because that's still very much felt wrong to me. And so it culminates with a suicide attempt because at this point I'm like in this tornado, right? And I can't figure how to get out.

And I'm trying to seek help. And I saw a couple priests, I was talking to people, I was reaching out, I'm trying all these tools. And again, it was like, I didn't want to die, but also like, I didn't want to die, but also like I didn't want to live. Like if this was gonna be the rest of my life, which at the time it felt like it, because literally every day I would resolve,

I'm never gonna do this again, or I'm never gonna do these behaviors again. And then the very next day I was doing it again. And it's such a hopeless feeling. And I just felt like no one can save me. I can't save myself. I've tried all these other things. And interestingly, Thomas Aquinas addresses suicide in the Summa. Does he?

And well, he addresses everything in the Summa. It's amazing. But one thing he says is that whenever we choose sin, we're choosing what we perceive to be good. We don't ever choose evil for the sake of evil. And so he says that even the suicide chooses suicide in a way out of love for self. Like there's a sense in which I want the good. I it's not a good. It's an objective evil, of course, but it's a perceived good. So the person who chooses suicide is choosing what they believe to be good. Yeah. Wow. And at the time, that's what it, and

I was also on, I forget which medication it was, it was an SSRI and I'm not going to get into all that, but literally on the pill bottle, it does say like it increases your risk for suicide, because it increases suicidal ideation. And so if you're already having that, you are increasing your risks. Okay. So I'm taking this medication. And it felt, honestly, it felt demonic too at the same time because I was having these nightmares, like Satan is in my dreams and I'm seeing him and I'm smelling him and he like entered into me.

And like, it felt like it was so layered. Like we have these addictions, we have like this attack that's happening, we have this medication that's influencing me in a way and so it just boiled over. And I just at one point impulsively was like, this is it, I'm done, I'm tapping out. Like I'm just tired.

I'm just so tired of doing this thing every single day and I'm never gonna get better. And I just don't know what else to do. And so I took, I don't know, like my prescription for like one pill, I took like 30 or 40, okay? And I called EMS because I was staying at a lady's house and I didn't want her to find me.

So I was like, okay, if I call EMS, they'll cart me out of here and she's not gonna find like a dead body in her house. You took 30 to 40 pills. Yeah. Called them, took them, laid down. I told them though, if I call EMS, they'll cart me out of here and she's not going to find like a dead body in her house. You took 30 to 40 pills. Yeah. Called them, took them, laid down. I told them though, and I called them. I said, look, I took two pills.

Okay. So, because I want, I didn't want them to actually save me. I just needed them to get me out of there. Yeah. But I had nowhere else to go because I'm living with this lady. Okay. Okay. So they, they show up and, uh.

Are you unconscious? Not yet. And they show up and I have blood running down my leg because instead of writing a suicide note, I decided to carve something in my leg. And uh, and so they see that and they're kind of like, okay, we got to take you to the hospital. Because even though I said, oh, it was just two pills, I'm fine. I'm fine. They're kind of like, okay, you're not fine.

So they take me to the hospital and when I get there, I tell them right away, you cannot contact my parents. And the reason I said that was because I knew I was an adult and so they would have to like respect my privacy and that sort of thing. But I also didn't want them to like get ahold of my medical records and know if like I'm allergic to anything, because again, I don't want them to save me. Right? So I don't want them to know if I'm allergic

to medications or have conditions or that sort of thing. And so they bring me to this room and a nurse comes in and she brings me this giant charcoal drink and she tells me to drink it and she walks out of the room. I take one look at it and I get up and I drop it in the trash. And when I dropped it, I remember the trash can was empty

and there was just thud when it fell down, right? It was a huge cup. And then I blacked out. And I flatlined and I'm unconscious for three days at that point as they like, I guess, pump my stomach, revive me. I'm not sure exactly what happened because they couldn't tell my parents

and I don't have any recollection of it, but I know that the only memory I have is a priest comes into the hospital room and he was a Dominican, so he's got like the hood and he sits down. He's an old, old Dominican too, and his rosary beads were like, you know, making the clacking noise. And he sits at the foot of my bed and I close my eyes. And when I open them again, it's now Jesus sitting at the foot of my bed.

And I'm looking at Jesus and I'm embarrassed. And I'm like, don't look at me because I have tubes shoved down my throat. I have tubes in my nose. I have two, like my hairs, like I'm literally in the worst condition of my entire life, the ugliest I could possibly be. Because not only do I have all this stuff going on,

but here is the author of life, the man who gave me my life. And I just tried to throw it all away, throw it in his face and say, I don't want this anymore, you take it back. And I was embarrassed and I was like, please leave me alone. And that was my reaction. I didn't say it, but that was the thought.

St. Peter, get away from me. Yeah, yeah. And he doubles down and instead of getting up and walking off, he smiles and he stares even deeper at me. And I'm like, aren't you pissed at me? Don't you want to yell at me? Don't you want to tell me like how screwed up I am? Like, like, like say it to me, Lord. Tell me how awful I am. And he does the opposite. And he says, I love you and you're beautiful and you are mine. And I'm staring at Jesus at the foot of my bed and I close my eyes and it all goes black. And that's the only memory I have from those three days. Wow. Did you ask questions about who the Dominican priest was?

So I asked the lady I'd been living with, she called a priest right away. She very devout Catholic woman. I owe her so much for her charity to me and her husband, because she took me in knowing I was a recovering porn addict and she knew I was struggling not to the degree that I was, but she knew I had some stuff going on. Oh, but she loved me in spite of it. And so she called it a priest right away because I was out. They didn't know if I was gonna live. And so she's like, we need some last rites

and we need prayers. And so he was just like, I guess he was there at a parish. So I have this encounter with Christ And so he was just like, I guess he was there at a parish. And so I have this encounter with Christ and the hospital releases me to come to a psychiatric ward in Austin. Real quick, was it like you saw Christ with your eyes? Yes, so I have no memories from that.

Apparently my dad drove out to Louisiana, was there in the hospital room with me. No memories of him being there. I don't even remember the eight hour drive back to Austin because I was still like heavily under like medication and stuff. And like I said, I'd opened my eyes and I saw it was the Dominican priest

and when I closed them and when I I reopen them, now he was Christ. OK, you know, in persona, Christie sort of thing, I guess. But you know, your dignity. Oh, my goodness. And so here's the part of the story where I wish I could be like, and then like Jesus appeared to me and I fell in love with him and I never sinned again. And everything is so nice. And dang it, I want that story because that's such a great story.

People love that, like, turning it around and never look back and I'm clean now and so forth. Everybody, you know, I still struggled after that. There was a lot of work that still had to be done because encountering Christ was like just the beginning. It was encountering love, but I still needed after that. There was a lot of work that still had to be done because encountering Christ was like just the beginning. It was encountering love, but I still needed so much healing.

I was still so broken. And because when I say I was an alcoholic, I was an alcoholic. Like passing out in public places, getting in accidents, car accidents. I got pulled over once. I should have gotten a DWI, but the cop let me go. I mean, just like, it was serious.

And I would drink, what was crazy about it when I would start drinking, I would throw a bunch of beers in the van and I would just drive as I was just pounding them, pounding them. And I would end up in cities I didn't know. I'd end up like pass out on the side of the road. I'd wake up like at a bar in like a four hour drive away

from where I started. I mean, it was just like, like insanity. I would go places and not have any recollection. I'd wake up in hotels with strangers, with men and like not have any idea how I got there or even where I was. I'd walk out and I would just look around and I'd have to pull out my phone, figure out what town am I in, where am I, where's my car?

I'd walk around parking lots pushing my car button. And that's like, I was gone to the point to where it was like a real problem. Cause I think sometimes people are like, yeah, you know, I drink a little too much. And this was like a serious issue. And that, that can be healed by Christ in an instant because he can do it.

But I think for a lot of alcoholics that I've met in recovery, it's actually a very long process that requires a lot of work. So Christ encounter met in recovery. It's actually a very long process. That requires a lot of work. So Christ encountering me was like him saying, I'm not giving up on you, so you don't get to call it quits either. I'm going to save you from the state that you're in, because he did. I should have died. I'm going to save you because like, we're gonna get through this, we're gonna work on this. And so what happens next? So I get back to Austin.

Now I gotta like start over, I have to do rehab again. I'm doing intensive outpatient therapy and I'm trying to learn new coping mechanisms and stuff like that. And just when I think I make progress, it's like I'd slip up with something and then it's so easy to say, well, screw it, if I already slipped up with porn,

I might as well do this and I might as well do that. Then at this point, like I meet this guy and I'm not sober and him and I start dating and it's probably my first serious relationship. So I'm like, oh, like this is great. But the crazy thing is I entered this relationship knowing that God did not want me to.

I took it to prayer and God was like, nope, he's not good for you. He's got a pill problem, you're an alcoholic, you guys are not, this is not going to work out." And I was like, but I really like him. And, you know, let's, let's come on, like, let's just have a little fun. And, and I willingly went against God's will. And that was a bad decision. And then the fallout was even worse because then fast forward a little bit, maybe about a year, because then, fast forward a little bit, maybe about a year, I get the call to religious life, to go to the convent.

Okay? Now, this isn't a new call because I had always kind of felt drawn to that. When I was in missions and I saw like missionaries of charity or just other nuns in other countries, I was like, man, that's what I want to do. Like I just want to give my life to the Lord. I want to be of service and that sort of thing.

And so then I'm dating this guy and I feel this deep call to the convent, but I'm like, Lord, like I'm dating this guy. Like, let me have my fun. I'll go be a nun when I'm older. Like, how about that? Let me live my life a little bit and I'll go be a nun. And I remember this one time I was at a retreat.

I was helping out with a youth retreat. And I'm before, I had just gone to confession, I'm before the blessed sacrament and I'm praying and I like have this, you know, vision, like just in my own mind, like of like Jesus coming to sit next to me and he's like, so what's the deal? He's like, so you love me, right? And I was like, yes, Lord, like, yes, I love you.

And he's like, and you want to be a nun, right? I was like, yes, Lord, like I do actually. And he's like, then start acting like one nun, right? I was like, yes, Lord, like I do actually. And he's like, then start acting like one. And he got up and he walked off. And he was right. I wanted to be a nun, but I wasn't doing anything to actively discern it. I wasn't visiting convents.

I wasn't living a life of prayer. I wasn't immersed in the sacraments. It's like this, I had this desire and I felt this call, but I was just completely ignoring it. And I'm dating this guy. He's like, start acting like it then. And so I knew I'd have to break up with this guy that I shouldn't have dated in the first place. And now I'm going to break his heart. And he was devastated because he was like, you're breaking up with me for Jesus. Cause I was like, well, I want to go like look at convents and maybe be a nun and both. And he did not understand it.

He was an atheist, so he didn't really didn't make any sense to him. And like, and I hurt him big time because he really did like me. And that was very difficult to get over. But now I'm getting this call to the religious life. And I start calling up orders and I'm getting a lot of nos. Because you had shared your story or because they just said no. Here's the thing, there's not like a standard for,

especially for women communities. For priesthood, there tends to be a standard, but for like communities or like, you know, brothers and monks and that sort of thing, it's like each community has their own requirements. So I had some say, well, you're too old. You know, I was 24 or 25, 25. Had some say you're too old.

I had some say no, because I had tattoos. I had some say no, cause I wasn't a virgin. I had some say no, because of my past, all sorts of nos. And that was hard because I'm trying to surrender to the Lord in his will for my life. And I'm trying to get past some of these demons, these battles that I've been fighting my whole life. And now I feel like I'm getting judged by them. And like no one wants to give me a shot. And I finally found a community that's like, yes, you can come, you know,

you'll do a psychiatric evaluation and then you can come enter our aspirancy program and postulancy and then you can begin the process, okay, if God continues it. And it was so amazing. I'm not gonna mention the community just because they are well known,

but I spent the next six months just thriving in the convent. The structure, the prayer life, the sacraments, and it was absolutely overwhelming because it was like figuring out what I was meant to do with my life while at the same time falling in love with the love of my life. It was like what I was meant to do with my life while at the same time falling in love with the love of my life. It was like what I'm supposed to do and who I'm supposed to be with at the same time merged together and it is just it's glorious and and and every day like is so blessed and the Lord is doing so much and I'm journaling and reading and I'm growing in my faith in profound ways and I'm loving community life and

And then out of nowhere The sister has to sit me down and she says Because I had shared that when I was younger I was on antidepressants like when I was in high school But it had been ten years since I'd been on antidepressants So like as far as I was concerned was, it was not an issue anymore. Like I understand if like, okay, I'm still having to take them. It's like, okay, maybe go look into that.

But like I was thriving in the convent. Like it was not an issue, but apparently with this community, you can't have any past of any sort of prescription, like medication for like mental health stuff. And she was crying as she told me this because she had seen me thriving in this environment. Okay.

And I'm devastated because I broke up with this guy. I let go of this job where I had a lot of money coming in bonuses and I walked away from it because I'm gonna be a nun. I don't need that money, right? I walked away from that. I sold my things. I took my name off of my apartment lease.

Like I was in it and I was so in love with it. And she was in tears because she felt like it was like an injustice. Like you could kind of tell she did not, like she's being obedient to her superior who told her that she had to tell me this. And I was so crushed. I went to the chapel and I just cried and I cried

and I cried because I'm like, I don't know what you want from me, Lord. Like it felt like another blow. It felt like another wound of someone looking at my past and saying, you're not good enough. And it was like, it was like a bitter, bitter rejection. It was like getting dumped. And I felt so rejected, like,

and I look at Christ on the cross, I'm in this chapel, and I'm like, if anyone understands rejection, it's Christ on the cross. Because He was rejected not only then in that moment, but I reject Him every day when I sin. And all of humanity, there are people who reject Him. All of humanity has rejected Him at one point on the cross. And I looked at Him and I knew he knew

what I was feeling. That bitter sting of rejection of people saying, I don't want you or you're not good enough or whatever the judgment is. And so I was like, okay, Lord, like I know I'm not alone in this. And so I went back home and like the first month back, I have no idea what to do. And so I just start pounding alcohol

because I don't like, I'm not good enough for the convent. And in my mind, it's like the convent in a way represented the church, which represents God. And so like, if I'm not good enough for God, then I'm not good enough for anyone or anything. And so I just start pounding drinks. And then it's like a huge wake-up call. Cause I had just gone like six months without a drink

and thriving and like loving life, thriving, falling in love with the Lord, like a vibrant prayer life. And so it scared the crap out of me when I came back. It was like nothing, like again, like I never left off. Like I never stopped. So I dragged my butt to a 12 step meeting and that was my, that was the start. I didn't know this, but that was actually my sobriety day.

It was February 16th of, no, February 22nd of 2016. And from, so begins the sobriety process, which is a long and very painful process. And as I get sober with alcohol, some of my other addictions are starting to come in and check. At the time, I had been struggling with stealing for a long time, like shoplifting from stores

and stuff. Not while I was in the convent, but before that. And I remember once I got into the 12-step program, it's like my sponsor called me out, like, you can't be doing that. You cannot be sober and say you're working a program and surrendering your life to God and stealing from stores. And so like that had to get in check, right? And then these other things like pornography and the eating disorder and the drugs. And the interesting thing about early sobriety is there are massive victories that you are mountains, mountains that you are scaling and nobody knows it.

Nobody sees it. The fact that I would go a day without a drink, nobody cared. I mean, like, no, it's going to clap unless they really like to be an alcoholic. Right, right, right. And like, I remember the first time I went to a store and I'm walking up to like, you know, the little like alarms that go off when you're stealing something, okay. Because I had been a compulsive stealer for so long, right, walking up to those things

was very like anxiety inducing. Like, did I take something that's gonna set them off? Am I gonna run? Like, what's gonna happen? Am I gonna get caught? And I remember the first time I walked up to it and I didn't steal anything. I was like, with my head held so high,

I'm like marching through those things. And when I went through them, I wanted to turn around and be like, everyone, I didn't take anything. Like check my bag. Don't you wanna look in my bag? Like I didn't take anything from your store. Like I wanted to celebrate this victory.

And of course I'm not gonna do that cause that's like weird a little bit. But I get to my car and I just sit there and I'm like, yes, like there's just this little quiet victory in my car of like, okay, that was the first time and let's see if we can get another time. And let's see if we can just kind of build on that. And so I'm having these like little victories,

these moments of like hope, like little glimmers of like, okay, like I'm overcoming some of these things and it's slow and it's painful and it's so hard. It's so much work. And at this point though, I'm like, but what does God want from me? Aside from me to be sober and have this like happy, joyous and free life, what does he really want from me?

Vocation wise or like job wise. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. So I talked to my youth minister, my youth minister at our parish. I had volunteered with him a lot, so that's why I say my youth minister. And he said, you know, we have a massive parish. We have 400 kids in our youth group. We're thriving. We're successful in every way. He's like, but there were a thousand students, seniors in high school who graduated from the local high school last year. He said, what did we do for them?

I said, we didn't do a darn thing for them. I mean, we cater to the kids who come to us. We don't go to them. He's like, exactly. And I was like, so like a missionary going to them, like the high school, and he's like, yeah, that's what I'm thinking. And I'm like, I said, Chris, I'm like, it's 2016.

I'm like, they're not gonna let you walk into a high school to talk to kids about Jesus? Like, come on, like, this is crazy. And he's like, we gotta try. And I'm looking for something to do, right? And I'm crazy enough to try it. So I was like, all right, well, let's, so we pitch it to the parish. And of course, the parish is like, we don't have money. And so we're like, okay, we'll fundraise. You okay? And then parish is like, all right. So then we have to get an exemption from the diocese because all the, like, you know,

the rules in place that are there to protect minors. I need an exemption for all the rules, basically. Like, I need to be able to give kids rides. I need to go places like alone, like one-on-one with kids and that sort of thing. And I just remember thinking like, there's no way, there's no way the diocese is going to budge on that. And they gave us the green light. They said, okay. And so I'm like, okay, the money came in, the diocese gave us a green light. Now we've got to talk to the high school and convince them to let me come in. I'm like, there's no way they're going to say like, yeah, come in and talk to our kids about Jesus. Principal's like, okay. So before I know it, I am a missionary at a public high school in 2016 and the mission field is I am bringing Christ to them

instead of sitting in our little church and waiting for them to come and being like, we have free pizza or like trying to bribe them to come to us. I'm going into the trenches. And it is so hard. Because remember remember high school was a nightmare for me. And I remembered the first time I walked into that cafeteria, I'm all by myself, right? It's my first time there. And there's that feeling of where do I sit? That terrifying feeling when you're a misfit

and you're in high school and you don't know where you're gonna sit and you just want one of your friends to call you over, someone to say, come sit with me. You don't wanna sit alone. Like I'm reliving that, okay. But I'm sober now. And God is slowly beginning to build up in me what was so terribly broken at one point.

And that first day was awful. I don't, I mean, I might've sat alone that first day, I think. But by the second day, I was like, all right, what's the quickest way to a kid's heart? Candy, duh. So I buy a bunch of candy, right? And the good thing about high schoolers is they're so chill that you can just look

at them across the room. They don't even have to know who you are. And you hold up like a candy, and they'll be like, you know, throw it, you know? And start a conversation. You throw the candy at them, you walk over. And so it was just like slow, just building, hey, this is who I am, having conversations with them.

After every lunch period, I would like take notes. Okay, this kid's name was blah, blah, blah. He likes this, tomorrow he has a test in that. Like, I'm gonna pray for him for this. And like, I'm taking notes because I'm meeting a ton of kids. Primarily I'm focusing on freshmen because the goal is like to kind of journey with them.

Plus they're the kids that can't leave the campus. So like, they're the ones that- They're the ones that interrupt. Yeah, they have to be in the cafeteria. And it's beginning to be so beautiful. And I'm starting to meet these kids. I'm starting to love on these kids. I'm starting to bring Christ to these kids

who would never step foot in a church. And a lot of these kids, I'm starting to love on these kids, I'm starting to bring Christ to these kids who would never step foot in a church. And a lot of these kids, like I'm specifically targeting the kids who are coming from broken homes, the kids who are not doing well in school, the kids that are the hardest to love are often the ones that need it the most and they are hard to love because they don't behave the best. Yeah. Or the annoying kids. You want to talk about hard to love? Sometimes it's easier to love the troublemaker who calls you the B word. Like it's easier to love him

than the kid who's like, who talks a little too much or who can't sit still. And I'm like, ah, but he needs to be loved just as much as that troublemaker does. So I'm going, like I'm trying to have these conversations with these either super nerdy, super awkward kids or these super annoying kids. And I'm really just like, Lord, like use me.

And I'm reaching out to them and we're building and we're starting to see fruit. And I'm going to football games. I'm going just wherever they are, wherever they are. I'm meeting them where they're at to bring them closer to Christ and having these beautiful conversations. And then about a year later, parish politics happened

and our youth minister was not getting along with someone who was on the like higher up end of the parish. And so to send him a message, they wanted to can the one program that fell under him, which was this outreach program. And they later admitted to that. And so that's why I'm able to say that so definitively.

But I was heartbroken because I'm investing in these kids, specifically kids who have had teachers and parents give up on them. Like every adult in their life has already said, you're too much trouble, you're too annoying. I can't deal with you. And finally an adult comes along. They open up to this adult. They trust me. And now I'm going to bail on them just like everyone else because of parish politics. We had the money that was there. The fruit was coming in. Like some of these kids were coming to youth groups. Some of these kids were coming to know Christ through

this program. I was only a year in. I mean, I was just barely setting the groundwork. I was so excited for the next year. And I had some of the kids tell me like, I thought you were going to like, like I was ready to invite you to prom my senior year. Like, you know, like I thought you would be there. And it was so hard. I remember this one kid, he had just met me and he asked me to come with him to go where his brother died. His brother had gotten hit on a motorcycle

and he wanted to go and sit. And of course I'm gonna be Christ and so I'm gonna sit with him, right? Like shepherds should smell like they're sheep. Like I should be rubbing elbows with these, just being there with them in the trenches. And so we go, you're not from the hood. And I'm not saying this was the hood or the ghetto,

but you sometimes gotta pour one out for the homie. So he tells me his brother's favorite beer. Okay, so we go and we pick up a beer, which is kind of funny because I'm an alcoholic and he's like a 16 year old kid and I'm buying a beer and it is wrong in every way. But like I knew we're gonna pour it out. Like it's for his brother, like, okay.

So I'm like trying to remain cool. Okay, so we get there, we pour it out. We're sitting there and he pulls out his phone and we're sitting there on the side of the road, cars are zimmy, it's a very busy street. And he pulls out his phone and he shows me, he pulls up a YouTube video. And someone had filmed the accident

or like the cleanup of the accident. And in this video are his brother's legs and his feet, his shoes sticking out from behind a car. And this person who filmed this video has it monetized and is making money off of this. And this brother is sitting next to me and he's like, I've asked this guy to take this down. Like this is my brother and he's dead. And he's in this video and people are commenting about this dead body that's like my brother and this guy won't take it down,

he's making money off of it because it's a spectacle. And my heart is breaking for this kid, but what causes it to break even more is this kid had just met me. He was so hungry. Like, where are the other adults in his life? Where are his friends? He just met me. I was a stranger. And immediately he draws me into this intimate part of his life. And he says, come sit with me in my pain. Come listen to my story. And that's the mission field right now.

These kids are dying of loneliness. They're so starved. Like people think that like we have to like fix all these problems in these kids' lives. And it's like, you just have to show up. Show up and listen and say, I'm here with you. Because like he invited me in like that. because like he invited me in like that.

And I had another kid, this is also great, witness to how beautiful this program was. He texts me, it's two in the morning. I get a text from this kid. He says, I just bought drugs and I don't wanna do them. Oh, bless him. First of all, he reached out and that's incredible. That is a grace. Did you get the text?

I got the text. Now it's 2 a.m. I'm about to break every rule in the book of do not do this, right? So here's a church minister driving at 2 a.m. to meet up with a 16 year old boy in a parking lot in the dark who has drugs, right? So he texted me and I texted him back right away.

I said, okay, you don't wanna do them? Like I'll take them. And he's like, nah, I spent money on it. I spent a lot of money. I said, okay, I'll buy it from you and then you lose nothing. And he goes, all right, let's just meet up. So we meet up.

I show up to this parking lot. He hands me a baggie of heroin and meth. Okay. And I'm standing there and I'm like, shit, shit, shit. Cause like, I didn't think, well now what do I do? He gave it to me. I'm an addict. Okay. I don't want this.

I'm not going to get in my car with it. I'm not just going to throw it to, like, I don't know what I'm doing and I look at him and I say Don't take your eyes off of me and I like pop my trunk and I'm like looking for what's in my I find it an empty Coke can and I like Dump the baggies in the coke can and there's like some freon and I dumped some free on it I probably made like some super drug in the process, but like I tied it in a bag and I thrown in dumpster Okay, he's not gonna use it

But like I tied it in a bag and I thrown in a dumpster. Okay, he's not gonna use it And I broke every rule in the book to do it but I couldn't help but feel like that's what Jesus would do for me He would say You got yourself in a situation You you took you you're trying to do these drugs. I'll take it. Give me your burden. I will bear it for you." And I couldn't help but feel like that, like that's what this kid needed in that moment. He needed Christ to show up and say,

"'I got you. You don't have to do this. And I'm not mad. And we're gonna get through it together.'" And you know, Pope Francis's saying of shepherds should smell like their sheep. I felt like in that moment, what it means is like his pain is my pain, right?

Like his drug purchase was my drug purchase. And like I should be so immersed in my ministry with those I'm serving that like, no, no, no, like this is ours. We're gonna carry this cross side by side together. And we're gonna shoulder the weight together because together we can actually do it. You don't have to do it alone.

I tried for my entire life to do it alone. And so I knew the feeling. And so if his pain is my pain, then his joy is also my joy. And 30 days later, he sends me a sobriety chip. You get these chips and 12 step programs for how many months you have or how many days. And I cried when he sent me the picture because his joy was my joy. 30 days clean and this was a kid who had struggled so much.

I had been helping him left and right and every time I helped him, it seemed like things were getting worse. Like he went from doing this drug to this drug to now he's having sex and now he's doing this and that. And I'm just like, Lord, like, I'm gonna keep showing up for this kid because that's what you did for me,

but like, it's not looking good. And I was there for him in that moment. And that's the hard part of ministry is a lot of times you're investing, you're investing, you're investing. And maybe you're gonna have a beautiful moment like that, but there's a lot of times you don't have that. But I was like, my job every day is to say, Lord, how are you calling me to serve you?

How are you calling me to be a part of the body of Christ? And what's that gonna look like today? And sometimes it is losing sleep and driving somewhere at two in the morning and risking jail time. I mean, if cops had rolled up, guess who's going to jail? Guess who has drugs in their hands? And you bought it. You didn't just take it. You bought it from it.

And imagine the headlines, youth minister, vice drugs off of kid in parking lot. And, but again, like, I just, I just felt like, like, like, like Christ shows up for us like that time and time again, He's in our life saying, you don't have to do this on your own. Give it to me, just give it to me and I'll take it for you. And I knew that that's what this kid needed. So this ministry was so effective and then it gets canned, right? Because of parish politics and I'm crushed and now I'm like, Lord, come on. I thought this seemed like a great calling for me because I'm not married,

I could give of myself to these kids and serve them full-time, and it was blossoming and there was fruit. And I'm sober and I realize I don't know what direction my life is headed and I also don't know who I am because most of my life I'd been using and self-medicating and that sort of thing. And so I'm like, I'm just going to go walk across Spain. I'm going to go do the Camino and just try to figure out where God wants me to go next and that sort of thing. And so I'm like, I'm just gonna go walk across Spain. I'm gonna go do the Camino. And just try to figure out where God wants me to go next and who I even am. So I pack it up and I leave. And I do it by myself and I get there and I'm like,

nobody talked to me, I'm on a spiritual journey. Right away I'm like, I have an idea of what this is gonna be for me. And I need answers. And so I don't wanna make friends with people. Everyone's like, oh, hi, huh. Like everyone's like, oh, hi. And I'm like, no, no, like I'm, I'm going to like get through this.

And I'm miserable because of it. Like my feet hurt. I don't have that like community at the end of the day and blah, blah, blah. And, and God sends me a community and he, and he gets me through it. But what I did was every morning I was waking up and I was asking God that question of like, who do you say that I am?

I mean, he asked us that, right? He asked the apostles that and he asks us that. But I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm turning the tables. Who do you say that I am? Because I honestly don't know. I know I'm not an addict, but I feel like I am. And I thought it was called to religious life,

but you said no to that. And then I thought it was called to all these minist but you said no to that. And then I thought I was called to all these ministries and you've been closing the doors on those. And I'm like, I need... And so every day I woke up asking God, who do you say that I am? And every day I'd hike another day, not get any answers, right? And then at some point, like halfway through this kind of just a side story, I called my mom and I said, mom, I'm walking the Camino with Jesus. And she's like, oh, that's nice, honey. And I said, no, really the guy who plays Jesus,

he's out here walking it. And Jim Caviezo was actually out there walking it. I didn't know his name. I just knew he was like the Jesus guy in the movie. And him and I talked for a few days. We actually walked together and he's a, I was a Texan, I'm a Texan and he was a Cowboys fan. And so we had that in common.

I'm like, yeah, Texas. And he would give me the updates because it was football season time. Anyway, so we're walking, we're walking, and every day I'm asking Lord, like, who do you say that I am? And I get to the very end of the walk and I'm at the ocean.

I just walked from France all the way across Spain. And I'm like, well, all right, God, thanks for nothing. Like I felt like I was no closer to any sort of answers. And then it dawns on me on the plane ride back that sometimes asking the question, like, yeah, sometimes it's about getting the answer, but sometimes it's also just about asking the question like, yeah, sometimes it's about getting the answer, but sometimes it's also just about asking the question. And what I learned in the Camino,

what it taught me was every morning I asked the Lord, who do you say that I am? And I turned to him for my identity every day. And that's what I should be doing every day, even now that I'm not walking the Camino. Lord, who do you say that I am? Because it's so, I can be so quick to forget what he says. It's like, I have to ask it every day because I'm dumb

and I'm one ear out the other, like I'm gonna forget or life happens and I get hurt again and then I question that so like every day I ask the Lord who do you say that I am and then I and I submit myself to that Now what is my past say that I am not like what is my current? What is my job or my vocation because again, I don't know what I'm supposed to do next. I Want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called Strive21.com slash Matt.

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for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Fred. So I get back and then at that point I went to check out one more community that was kind of like starting up because I'm like, again, I don't feel called to marriage life. Just because the convent didn't work out, I wasn't like, oh, well, I guess now I'll go get married. It's like, no, I don't feel that way. And so when I checked out this other community

and it was beautiful and I thought that's what was it, and then all of a sudden God sends me this very clear red flag, like this is not it, go home. So I go home and I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'll just go like maybe to college. Like I honestly have no clue what I'm doing at this point. And I go to college and I'm living at home and I'm like taking classes.

And I remember sitting there, I'm staring out the window and we're learning about like cell division or like, oh, this is the mitochondria and like, oh, like, and I'm just like, I don't care. Like missions had, I had already done so much ministry that I'm like, there are souls out there. Like there are people out there who spend their entire lives never knowing

the love of the father. They're isolated, they are alone, they are unloved and they have no clue that God loves them. And you want me to worry about like how plants photosynthesize and like, like I don't care about this. And I, and I, I suddenly told God, I said, look, I need to be in ministry. Like, okay, if I need to get a degree, that's fine, but it's got to be in conjunction with ministry. Like I need to be doing both. I can't just be focusing on school because it just seems so pointless to me. And, but I don't have a degree

and you can't just go be a youth minister without a degree, at least not normally. And I run into this priest at this wedding and he says, "'What are you doing these days?' And I'm like, oh, you know, just going to school. And he's like, well, you know, I have this campus ministry job and I really need a campus minister.

And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like I'll look into it. I'm trying to play it cool, but in my head, I'm like, oh my gosh, like this would be amazing. Like it'd be a full-time ministry gig. Like this would be amazing. But you know, I didn't want to seem like desperate or like, you know, I didn't want him to think that.

So I was like, yeah, I'll send you my resume. He's like, no, really, I think you should apply. And then so I did and give me the job. And so then I found myself as a campus minister at a college there outside of Austin, full-time ministry. And at this point, I'm like, I can suddenly see like, wow, I could be a consecrated single person serving the Lord full-time in the world, like doing ministry, but like to not have the kind of the restraints that a married person has for someone in the convent. Like, okay, if I was in the convent, there's no way they would have let me leave at two in the morning to go buy heroin off of a kid,

right? You know? Very unlikely. Yeah. Right. And if I was a wife and a mother, like I would need to get home for dinner and I couldn't just be disappearing like that. So I'm like, Lord, maybe there's a place for me in the church after all. Maybe it's just gonna look very different than what I thought because I wanted the habit. I wanted the habit, I wanted the convent,

I wanted the singing the Salvation at night before bed and doing the office and I wanted all of that. And God had to remind me that like, it's not up to me to decide what my holiness looks like, like how he wants me to be holy. I'm not gonna make myself a saint. Like I'm gonna do the opposite. Like I'm gonna, like I already tried, right,

to better myself and it always made things worse when I took things into my own hands. So I had to realize like, okay, if God's gonna make me a saint, it's gonna look how he wants it to look. And I want it to look a certain way, but that doesn't mean that that's actually what's going to be what sanctifies me.

And so I had to like surrender to like, okay, it's gonna look different. It's gonna look different. And so I started discerning, you know, consecrated single life and I'm thriving. Oh, yet again, I'm in ministry and it's like, it's campus ministry, so it's even cooler because you don't need permission slips

and you can go do stuff super late at night. And I'm working 55 hours a week and we're like up late. I mean, I'm up there 12 hours a day, usually at the student center and it's just beautiful. It's just incredible. And then I'm talking to my spiritual director and he's like, so do you have any friends? And I was like, well, you know,

like the college kids I minister to, he's like, no, no, no, no, no. Not the people you minister to. He's like, friends your age, people that aren't, you know, people you're ministering to. And I was like, no, cause I had to move there for this job. And so I didn't have any friends.

He's like, you should meet up with like a group of people and start hanging out with aside from your ministry. I was like, that's probably wise. So I meet up with this group and it's like, it's like an outdoors group. And so we kind of go camping or we go to baseball games and we're like all in the central Texas area. They're all people my age and stuff.

We have a lot of common interests. And there's this guy there. And I remember it was the first time I met him and we were at this hangout. And I leaned over to the guy that was next to me and I said, you see that guy right there? I said, that's the kind of guy you take home to mama. Cause like he was like well put together,

he was dressed nice, you know, he had a nice car. It just seemed like, like he had it, like everyone else was a little crazy like me, but he had it together. And my very next thought was, but a guy like that would never go for a girl like me. Like I'm too messed up. I have too much baggage.

I'm too broken. And so I put it out of my head. And then two years later, we start talking, me and this guy. And I'm like, oh no, because the last time I talked to a guy and it wasn't God's will, it did not work out very well.

And so I'm like, Lord, do you want this? Cause like, I thought, like, I thought I was going to be single forever and I thought I was going to be married to you. And like, I was totally cool with that. I had already accepted, like, I was a little upset about it. Like I was like, okay, well, I might be like lonely and bitter for the rest of my life,

but like, if it's the Lord's will, I'll do it. You know, like I was like, okay with it. And, and Lord's will, I'll do it." You know, like I was like, okay with it. And God's like, in that moment, I took it to prayer and the Lord was like, just look, you don't have to commit to anything, just see where this goes. Like just trust me and just see where it goes. All right. So I'm like, okay, fine. All right. All right. I trust you. to see where it goes. All right, so I'm like, okay, fine. All right, all right, I trust you. Then I find out this guy's an atheist. And I'm like, okay, all right, first of all,

I never imagined myself getting married, but I darn sure did not imagine myself marrying an atheist. Okay, that is on the very bottom of my list. Okay, I could probably marry a bunch of other denominations before I would ever get to that. So I start talking to this guy seriously, and right away I'm going through all the red flags. Like, okay, well, we can't have sex till marriage.

He's like, okay. I'm like, okay, well, I'm not gonna be able to contracept when we get married, we're gonna have to have a bunch of babies. And he's like, okay, I'm like, well, we're gonna have to raise all those babies Catholic, because I'm Catholic. And so that's what I have to do and commit to. And he's like, okay.

He's like, I'm looking for the thing to end the relationship, right? Like I'm like, where's the deal breaker second? I was like, it's not gonna work out. And he's just like, okay, he's okay with all of it. So then I get back to the chapel and I'm like, okay, okay, okay, God, hold on. I'm like, this is crazy.

This is crazy. I'd like, this is crazy. This is crazy. Like I don't wanna marry an atheist. And God was like, why? And I was like, because it's gonna be hard. And I don't want that. He's like, oh. He's like, what if the hard way is actually the holy way as it often is in life?

And I'm like, oh no. Cause he was right. Selfishly, I wanted, again, I wanted my holiness to look how I wanted it to look. Okay, if I can't have the convent, I want the super Catholic husband who's gonna pray a rosary with me every night, who's gonna lay his hands on me when I have a headache,

he's gonna pray over me before he goes to work. Like I want my life to look a certain way, not like, Lord, I got clean for you. Like, I gave things up for you. I serve you in missionary full-time. Like, I felt like the very least you could do, God, is send a Catholic boy my way. But this guy, his parents were atheists, and his brothers were atheists, and it dawned on me like, who's going to pray for him? His mama ain't praying for him. His brothers aren't praying for him. If it's not me, who's going to pray for him?

And it felt wrong to be like, well, because you're an atheist, I can't marry you. Now, I will say this, I would never advise, I don't think it's wise to tell Catholics to marry non-Catholics. I really think Catholics should marry Catholics. However, if I've learned anything in life, it's also to not question the will of God. So I'm also not gonna make the statement

that Catholics shouldn't marry an atheist because what the heck do I know? The other day I put lotion on my toothbrush because I'm not paying attention. That's how dumb I am, okay? So like why would I then pretend to know like, oh yes, like no Catholics should marry atheists ever because it's never gonna work out.

Like there's this fantastic book, the Diary of Elizabeth Liss, it's something French. She married an atheist, devout, devout woman prayed a lot, was immersed in the sacraments. She kept a diary, right? She just loved him like Christ was calling her to love him. And she died young. And when she died, he read her diary. Not only did he come to believe in God, he became a Catholic, and then he became a priest. She never saw it in her lifetime. Obviously, she's in heaven, then she's aware, but at least in her lifetime, she just poured out, and she poured out, and she poured out. And suddenly I started to see, maybe God has something

here for me. I don't like it. I want the super Catholic wedding and I want like all my babies to like know all their prayers in Latin and, but here's the amazing thing. My husband has taught me so much about my faith. So you got married to him. Oh yeah. That's the thing. Spoiler everyone. Okay.

So we do get married. But, but so I bring this up because in the dating process I'm already seeing this. Okay. So in the dating process, I'm already seeing this, okay? So in the dating process, at one point he came to visit me and we went, I went, I'm like, I have to go to confession. You know, I'd slept up with porn. And so it's like, I gotta go to confession. It's Saturday, it's only on Saturdays at 3.30.

This is my only time and he was there on a Saturday. He's like, all right, like I'll go with you. And I'm like, that's so lame though. You're just gonna sit there. He's like, no, no, no, it's fine. So we drive to the church and I go to pull the door open and there's a sign on it. And it says, confessions are canceled today.

And I'm like, ugh. And I looked at him and I'm like, well, I tried. You know, you see that God, I tried. It's not my fault they're canceled. And he looks at me and he goes, wait, confessions are just canceled? And I'm like, yeah, that's what the sign says. He's like, why? I'm like, I don't know, but maybe the priest is busy. I don't know. And he goes, but you can't receive communion if you don't like go

to confession first. I'm like, yeah, I know. And he was like, so it's really important that you go. And I'm like, well, yeah. And he's like, well, is there anywhere else around that you could go to like another church? And there was another church, but it was 20 minutes away. And I knew that by the time I got there, the line would be long and I probably wasn't gonna get in. So like, I'm trying to tell him like, no, like it's fine. He's like, no, no, no, we can do it.

We can do it. So like he pulls me in the car, we drive to this church, we get to the church and there's a long line. And so I look at my, I look at, we were dating at the time, so I look at my boyfriend, I say, I'm probably not going to get in. And he goes, wait, so like, there's going to be this long line and the priest is just going to come out and like shrug and be like, sorry, y'all can't get in and walk off. And I'm like, pretty much. Yeah, that's what happens. And so he's like blown away. He can't believe that like such an important thing can be so non-important almost, right? And I'm like, it's giving me a new, like I've been Catholic my whole life. So a lot of the stuff is just like, well, this is just how it is.

Second nature. Yeah. And like, and even like, had he not been with me, I would have gone home. Yeah. You know, he pushed me to go to another church, right? Because any- What a great atheist. What a great atheist. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, this atheist is causing me to go to another church, right? Because, and he kept stressing. What a great atheist. What a great atheist! And I'm sitting here and I'm like, this atheist is causing me to grow in holiness.

And I'm like, oh my, like. Did you get the confession? I did. And I got it and it was funny, because Mass is gonna start soon and they're praying the rosary and I look over and he has his phone out and he had Googled like what a rosary was

and he's like reading about it while he's sitting there waiting. And then I get out of confession and we sit in the car and he says, he goes, ee, ee, ee, ee, and he starts making this noise. I said, what are you doing? And he goes, you hear that?

And I'm like, yeah, what the heck is that? And he goes, that's your soul, it's squeaky clean. And he's like, ee, ee, ee, and he's making this noise. And I crack up because like, again, confession has just become second, especially for someone who's like slipping with pornography every week, you know, and stuff like it's just become second nature in a lot of ways. And I've forgotten just how massive it is. And he's suddenly like shining a light on that for me. And it's like, it's like a wake up call, right? And I'm like, okay, okay,

okay, maybe God can do something with this. And it's been, it's been a fascinating journey because even when we were doing marriage prep, because he'll ask questions that I've never even thought to ask. He'll be like, why does God have to be perfect? And I'm like, well, he is like, I don't know why. Like, I don't know. Like he just is. He's like, no, but and so he's, he's, it's like a fresh lens lens that like I can view the faith all of a sudden. Yeah. So it's like a fresh lens that I can view the faith all of a sudden. Yeah, it's sort of like when I have a friend of mine come and visit Australia with me,

and they haven't seen Australia before. I've seen it a lot, and all of a sudden I'm seeing everything through their eyes. It feels like I'm seeing it for the first time. And so suddenly you're like, whoa, this is actually really cool. And so we're doing marriage prep, and we're meeting with the priest and the priest is like, okay, here's the readings you can pick from. And here's like the vows you can pick from. And he's given us like the list and we're kind of looking at it.

And of course, I'm just like, oh, I like these vows, you know, like, and my boyfriend's like, who wrote these? I'm like, I don't know who wrote them. Like these are the ones you have to pick from. Like this is what the church says and this is what you have to say. And he's like, well, I wanna, he's like, if I'm gonna say this to you on the altar as a commitment to you,

like I need to know who wrote this and when. And like, and so he is causing me to like grow in my faith because now I'm having to research everything. And in a weird way, being married to an atheist causes me to grow more because I feel like I'm constantly having to witness the faith. And the same, not that Catholics don't do this, okay, but there's something about when you're with other Catholics, you know what's right and wrong. You know that you're human. You know that like, okay, like there's sin, concupiscence. So you're kind of a little more like,

we're trying our hardest. But I'm the only witness he has to the faith. No pressure. No pressure. And so I'm like, when I get upset with him, like immediately I'm like, oh, I have to apologize. I have to apologize because he knows what I believe. He goes to mass with me every Sunday, right?

And he walks up with our two year old so the two year old can get a blessing because I'm holding the one year old. You know, and he gets a little blessing in the process. I don't know if he realizes that, but I'm always like. We go to the priest for that reason though, because I'm like, I want him blessed. Um, we go to the priest for that reason though, cause I'm like, I want him blessed.

Um, but it's been this incredible journey and it is hard. It is hard because there are things that are like, like when I have a headache, I don't get to be like, Hey, pray for my headache. I'm like, Hey, wish me luck. Like, you know, like it's, yeah. Like, and so there's these little moments where, like I am envious. Like when I, I had to get off of social media for this reason. Yeah. Because my friends would be like, me and my husband did this novena together and we prayed this and we prayed that. And it, and it here's, here's my head again, like, like, was I not good enough for the

Catholic marriage to God? Like really you pulled the comment for me, you pulled my ministries from me. You know, now you have me in this, this difficult marriage that's unequally yoked. And so that's been like something like I've also had to come and accept. But let me tell you something. This past Christmas, I'm walking by the living room, and I overhear my husband, and he's holding my two-year-old. And he's explaining the nativity set to my two-year-old, and he's explaining the nativity set to my

two-year-old. And he's saying, like, here's baby Jesus, and here's his mama Mary, and here's Joseph. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, God can use anyone. And it's so humbling to hear that from an atheist. Because it's like, here I am thinking I have to shoulder everything. Like I'm the Catholic in the marriage. So like all the catechesis is going to fall on me. All the witnessing of like teaching them their prayers and reading the Bible and like all that's going to fall on me. And that's what I made up in my head. But God in that moment was like, he got it all backwards. Like I had you marry this man for a reason. And so it's like, Oh, okay. Like it, and, and he, I'm the worst

at praying before meals and he remembers every time he'll I'll be okay. In all fairness though, I have been breastfeeding and pregnant for three years in a row. Okay, so when I sit down, it is time to eat. Now we have a few minutes because the one of the babies is gonna go crazy or need to nurse. But I'll be like, Scarf, I'm already halfway through my meal

and he's just sitting there like this. He hasn't touched his meal. And I go, and I'm like, oh, let's pray, you know? And so it's just been this amazing journey. And again, I don't advise people to do it, but I know that there are a lot of women out there and men in marriages, and maybe it's not an atheist, maybe it's a Muslim, maybe it's, you know.

In a way, in a way, it's easier that he's an atheist because he doesn't have a dog in the fight. I feel like if I was married to a Protestant, then everything would be like an argument because it's like, well, who's right? One of us is right. Yeah, I mean, and I guess you can say that about an atheist too, but he's not one of the angry atheists.

He's not combative. He's not, he's not hostile. And he was a history major. So I kind of have that in my favor because I'm like, hey, we have a lot of history in the church, you know, like, cause I'm know, he was a history major. So I kind of have that in my favor because I'm like, Hey, we have a lot of history in the church, you know, like, cause I'm like, who majors in history? What a lame thing to major in like, come on. But I wanted to touch on social media because you are absolutely right that, I mean, first

of all, we all are aware that we try to put our best self forward. Or if we're like a little prickly like me, sometimes you put other things forward to upset people. But for the most part, when we're talking about our families, we really try to make them look squeaky clean. And I am so glad you got off social media for that reason, because it can be so damaging. I have a very beautiful friend here, Dr. Matt Bruninger. He's a psychologist. And he's like, Matt, listen to me. It's like I've met so many people, you scratch anyone's life and there's stuff beneath it. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not trying to relish in the fact that people we think are perfect aren't. Yeah. But it's just that just to say that I think one of the reasons we love stories like yours is because we know our own misery.

misery. We've run into our own poverty enough that it's tiring to keep that image of perfection. So that when we hear someone like, we love you, we love people who share this so vulnerably and beautifully because we know in the depths of our hearts that we're not our social media selves. And I kind of wanted to, you know, I just bought a beautiful book, Theology of Home, right? Yeah. Beautiful book. Yeah.

Love it. I love it. I had her on the show. I love all the stuff she's written and it, but I'm looking at these images and I'm like, does she live? And like, where is this place? So I, I would love to do that. I would love to do it.

So I took a picture of my front porch and I have a dead plant in the pot. Okay. And there's a juice box sitting in it that my two year old left there. Okay. And I take a picture of that and I'm like theology of home, like this, here's a plan I forgot about, you know, and here's a juice box that's half drunk and he probably picked it up later and drank it the next day or something like that. And I let him cause because you know I'm also cool is if you create a theology of home with because you can take artistic photos of like mess yes yes that's that's what it was the most

artistic photo I could take of this potted plant on my dirty porch with like it smudges all on my like glass door from my kids hands and fingers and And it's like, and that's like, that's like our lives, all of us, all of us have these messy lives and my life has been so messy and we're all afraid to show that. And I think, I did homeless ministry for a while and we gotta talk about that, I feel like,

because it's such a beautiful thing. I think that's why sometimes we avert our eyes from homeless people. Oh, I could try to think right now. Well, we have a lot of homeless here. I had this very humbling experience a couple of months ago. There's this fella here in town. He's always got the same story about why he needs money. And he forgets every time, apparently, that he's seen me and asked me for money before, asked me for something before. And this one day, I don't know, I

was just feeling, I was in a bad mood. And I just, I was really rude to him. I was like, Oh, let me guess you want like something like that. I was a jerk and he was so awesome. Cause he's like, why would you humiliate me? Why are you gonna speak like that to me like that? And I was, I knew it was right. It was like the next day I had a friar of the renewal on my show and I went to confession. But yeah, it's like, you're a nuisance.

I don't want to look at it. I don't, you know. I think we want the poor to be like, uh, what is it now? Oliver twist? Is that the poor kid is like, we want them like polished in a way, or like polite and grateful and like be poor, but be poor. How I want you to be poor and we want them to look a certain way. And so I did homeless ministry. I guess before I went to the convent, I was living with my sister. We were living in these apartments and we were right next to a major overpass

and there were always homeless people right underneath. And one day I was in the car with my sister. I said, you see those people right there? I point at them and she's like, yeah. I'm like, those are our neighbors. I said, I'm gonna get to know them. So I would show up with a pack of cigarettes. Like after work, I'd go out there.

And I tried to go out there early evening because they're not too drunk yet, a pack of cigarettes. Like after work, I'd go out there. And I try to go out there early evening because they're not too drunk yet, a lot of them. And I would sit out there and I would just hang out with them. And I learned so much. Okay, here's a couple of things I learned, a couple of nuggets and hopefully they mean something. But the first that I learned

was most homeless people haven't been touched in a really long time because they're dirty, because they have scabies, because they have lice. Like I would be hanging out with them and I could see the lice, right? Okay? But we're wired for touch. Humans are wired for physical contact.

And I can't imagine what it's like to go 30 years without someone ever saying your name or touching you. Not only not touching you, but being repulsed by you. If you come near them, they scoot over because you smell bad and you probably are carrying something that they don't want. And so often I would feel like I need to give them money and I need to fix their whole life

and I need to do these things, but like it's free to give a hug. So what I learned from part of that was anytime I was at an intersection, there's a homeless person, I'd roll down my window, I'd ask for their name and I'd ask if I could give them a hug. And I'd throw that car in park

and I'd get out and I'd give them a hug. And obviously people should always, especially with homeless ministry, there's a certain level of prudence. It's funny you say that because my wife, before we were married, used to take homeless people out for lunch. And I'm like, you cannot do that anymore.

Right. I'm not allowing it. Like I'm actually doing the whole submit thing at this point. Yeah, like I am the head of the house. I'm like, you will not do that. No, because I don't want her to be in danger. Yeah.

And, and, but the other things that I realized. So one is like, if you're a single person, I mean, look, I'm also from Texas. So, you know, like, I don't know what that meant, but I love how you said it. Look, all right. All right. I'm five foot nothing. All right. And I carry a gun because like, oh, what am I going to do?

Fight someone? Come on, come on. I can't do anything. But there is a certain amount of prunes there. The more you're around homeless people, the more you can read them. There was only one time I kind of got a little sketch out of one of the guys I knew really well.

Man, I could see it in his eyes. It was so weird, we were talking and just having a normal conversation and it was like a light switch. And his eyes got weird and he starts ripping out hair. And he starts throwing tufts of hair at me and he's getting in my face and I'm like, all right man, yeah and I'm out of there right? But he later apologized the next day he apologized like he knew he got he got weird on me like that and but here's the

thing about homeless ministry I think we over complicated I think all of us think we have to solve their lives now imagine if the only time people ever talked to you was when they wanted to solve your life. Because most homeless people, that's the only time people talk to you. Here's the soup kitchen. Here's where you can get a bed tonight. Here's the only time people talk to them is to say,

let me help you. Let me, and maybe sometimes that's what they need. But if that's the only time people like, no one ever asked the homeless people like, how's your day? What are you doing this weekend? They have plans, believe it or not. It seems so weird because we've dehumanized them.

Like homeless people can't possibly have plans. I remember the first time I saw a woman's humanity, she was a homeless woman. She comes in, she sits next to me and she has a card, like a greeting, a birthday card that she got from like a CVS or something. And she's looking at it so tenderly, and she keeps opening it and closing it. And she finally tells me, she says,

I got invited to my niece's birthday, her seven year old birthday party today. Now, of course, it's across town. There's no way she's gonna make it. And this card that she's holding, she didn't pay for, she stole it. But there was this, there was this love in her and this hope in her of like, I got invited to a birthday party.

And so I got this card from my niece. And she kept looking at it as if it was like, gonna take her there somehow. And I saw this woman who had the heart of like any mother or any proud aunt, right? Who wants to be there? And I was like, wow, like, like I would get my nephew a card for his birthday.

Like she's like me, right? And she's looking at it fondly and she's not gonna go. And I know that and she knows that. But there was like this like hope there. And when I would do homeless ministry, because I wasn't in a formal, this is the other thing, we want it polished. I wanna sign up to help at the soup kitchen.

I'm gonna show up, you're gonna give me gloves and hair net and you're gonna tell me where to stand and what to do. And I'm gonna help out the soup kitchen. I'm going to show up, you're going to give me gloves and hair net, and you're going to tell me where to stand and what to do, and I'm going to smile at the homeless people. I'm going to feel really good afterwards, because I did it. But sometimes, yes, we can serve them in that way, but sometimes God is calling us to step out and to forge the path, because there's not always those ministries set up.

You know how many times I'm like, oh, who's doing prison ministry at the parish? No one. All right. I guess I can't go visit the in prison. You know, I look at like the corporal works of mercy. Yes, I can do that. It's like, well, then why don't I start it? Or how much is a stamp? Why don't I send letters?

That's another thing that I do as I write inmates. But because I can't always go visit them. I used to I used to go and because I can't always go visit them, I used to, I used to go and give talks at prisons, female prisons. I did a couple of male prisons once, but female prisons are a little bit better for women to speak at.

Yeah, I bet. But like, I'm a coward, and the moment I have a way out of doing something that makes me uncomfortable, I'm taking it. Oh, sorry, there's no homeless ministry set up for me. I don't know what else to do. I don't know how to help them. I don't know how to fix their lives.

Like, how about just ask them what their favorite, like these are people who had a favorite color growing up as a kid. Like these, the homeless man you see missing half of his teeth, who's unrecognizable to his own parents was once a little boy who had a favorite color and who had a desire to be a firefighter one day. And we lose sight of that because now they look so different from what we imagine most humans to look like. And it's,

and I think one of the things that at least that made me uncomfortable was And I think one of the things that at least that made me uncomfortable was seeing their poverty showed me my poverty. Because I'm a fool if I think that I have it more together than that homeless guy does. Because in an instant I could lose everything. In an instant, I'm a recovering addict, okay. There's nothing to stop me tonight from picking

up a drink and ending up under a bridge. I could not make it home. There's literally nothing stopping me other than God's grace. So when I look at this homeless person and I say like, like I'm not one of them. I'm different from them. Like, no, no, no, no. Like, we are all beggars before God. All of us are homeless people, bumbling about, trying to figure out this thing we call life, and we have nothing but our own sin to show for it. That's, if you want to like, oh, what are your possessions or what do you have that's your own? My sin. That's it. Everything else is a gift from God. How did I mean, are you sober now? Can I ask? Yeah. I mean, how long is it? Celebrated eight years.

Where is God? Eight years in February, February 22nd. And and that's helped a lot. A lot of clarity has come from that. I work with other people in recovery. I'll go to prisons, I'll work with, here's, all right, we do have to talk a little bit about alcoholism and addiction because there was a lot of people,

I would almost say everyone watching this right now knows someone who's either currently struggling, has struggling, or has died struggling from some sort of chemical dependency drugs or alcohol, especially right now with, you know, the opioid opioid crisis. I mean, it's, it's, it's everywhere. And it's gut wrenching when you're watching someone destroy their lives and you don't know how to help them.

So what scares me is it feels like your story is such that they're... I mean, it sounds like you're saying to me you couldn't think of something your parents could have done to make things any different. Exactly. That's scary. This is what everyone... Because now I can't control it. This is what everyone does not want to hear, but it needs to be said. If there is an addict or an alcoholic in your life, there's nothing you can do to desire sobriety for them.

Now, there are some tangible ways that you can encourage that, that you can support them. But the thing with an addict or an alcoholic is by nature of the disease of it, they're going to destroy everything around themselves, including the relationship they have with you. They're gonna steal from you, they're gonna lie to you, they're gonna manipulate you, they're gonna use you. So after AA was started, this organization popped up as well.

It's also a 12-step group, it's called Al-Anon. And that's for people who know addicts and alcoholics. The reason that happened was because you have these alcoholics getting sober and they're like, sweet, like I haven't drank in 10 years or whatever. Meanwhile, there's like a trail of damage behind them. Like it's like they were a tornado and they destroyed everything behind them. But they're like, well, but I'm clean now, isn't life grand? They destroyed everything behind them, but they're like, well, but I'm clean now.

Isn't life grand? And you have the carnage and all the loved ones who are traumatized still. They don't, they have trust issues now. They don't, they're, they're still like scared for the phone call of like an OD. Like has your folks had to go through something? Oh yeah. For every alcoholic or addict who is using or in recovery, those around them, I strongly encourage something like Al-Anon because you have to do your own recovery. You have to learn when to set boundaries. You have to learn what is yours and what is theirs.

Did you see that movie with Steve Carrell? It's a terrible, terrible movie. Kyle, maybe you could look it up. Beautiful boy. Thank you, beautiful boy. Wow. That's about his son who is... I haven't seen it, but I've heard of it. Oh, it's painful.

I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad movie. I'm just saying it was so painful to watch. And this is why the disease, this is why the disease is so crazy. And we call it a disease in NAA because, um, all right, there's so many layers here. When someone has cancer, you don't look at them and say, well, just have better willpower and not have cancer. Okay. Okay. And what we find is an alcoholic has a disease.

In the sense that they can't just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And also in the sense that they have a physical allergy, like a physical, an allergic reaction happens. What's an allergic reaction? Well, it's an abnormal reaction to the ingestion or consumption of something. Right. Okay. So think about someone with a peanut allergy. Yeah. You would never look at someone with a peanut allergy and say, well, don't have a peanut allergy or man, you could have just one peanut. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because, no, it's going to trigger a reaction. OK. So for the alcoholic, one drink triggers the reaction of,

now I need more. That was always me. Yeah, yeah. You know, even if I said, OK, I'm going to have one drink. I've never in my life had one drink. But every time I drank, I told myself, I'm just going to have one. And then 13 beers later, I'm like, all right, I guess I'm going to drive home now. I'm just gonna have one. And then 13 beers later, I'm like,

all right, I guess I'm gonna drive home now. I'm wasted, right? Did you read Matthew Perry's book before he passed away? I haven't read it. I haven't either, but I hear it's really great. And he pointed that out. I think when he was young, he had a drink. And the experience he talks about sounds like what you said,

and it's one that I've never had. Like I can have one drink, okay. Right. Or what drives me nuts is sometimes my husband will drink a half a beer and stick it in the fridge and I'm like, first of all, it's going to get flat. First of all, that's disgusting to drink at the next day. Right. Okay. But second of all, who the heck has half a beer? Like, and, and, and how, I mean, was it difficult for you to have him drink around you at all? Well, here's the thing, and this is another thing people need to realize about sobriety. Okay, early recovery is hard.

And so things like that are helpful if people say, but you shouldn't say, oh, there's so and so, like, we can't drink around them, they have a drinking problem and they're in recovery. Like, the best way is to just kind of say, hey, I'm so happy that you're in recovery now, how can I support you in that? And they might say, can you get the alcohol out of the house? Or they might say, can you not drink around me? Maybe, in early recovery, Matt, I couldn't go anywhere.

It's like I'd be at the gas station, there's little beers on ice, and there's just like that bead of sweat dropping down them. And I'm like, I'm there to like get gas. And I'm like, look at these, just sitting here. Does I'm like, look at, look at these, just sitting here. Does anyone else see these beers? Does, do people, everyone, like nobody's paying attention to the beers.

And I'm like, right. So in the beginning, I had to, I had to stop. I had to, I couldn't cook because I had no idea how to cook without downing bottles of wine. It was just activities that you would associate drinking with and what you were sort of drinking with every activity. Literally every activity.

I didn't know how to clean my house without getting plastered first. Okay. It was in sick. What did your house look like after you cleaned it? You know what? I tell you, I would put on music and I would just get wasted and I would clean as much as I could until I passed out. You know? Okay.

So one way to do it. Yeah. Oh, and there was, I remember there's one time I had to go to a wedding and I needed a dress. And I was like, I don't want to go dress shopping. I know, if I get drunk first, I won't really know that I'm dress shopping. And I ended up passing out at the mall on like a bench and I never made it to the wedding.

I never bought a dress, never made to a wedding. Woke up, I don't know how much later, got in my car and drove home. Okay. So the thing about it is in early recovery, you can absolutely ask someone how they can support you. However, when someone's been working their butt off hard in a program and you go,

oh, sorry, I don't wanna drink this around you. I don't wanna, I'm insulted if people do that because I'm like, what do you think? I'm an animal? You think I'm just gonna like lose all control and grab it out of your hands? And like, I have worked my butt off to do this program so I can be sober and in a weird way.

Yeah, it's like the big book also say, which is the AA book, it says that even if we were to go all the way to like to just avoid alcohol, that's actually not a solution because you could go all the way to Alaska and an Eskimo is gonna show up and pull out a bottle and say, oh, it's a fine day for a drink, isn't it? Like the big book makes the joke that like it's everywhere.

So avoiding places in the beginning is helpful, but that's not the solution. People think that people go to AA or any 12 step program to learn how to not do the behavior. The steps say nothing about, like, don't drink. The program is actually about looking at yourself, taking an inventory, finding out where your character defects are, making amends, trying to right the wrongs that you did, recognizing what your resentments are, and setting things right, and then it's about service

to God and to others. Like the program, we don't just sit around and say, well, how do we not drink? Because there's nothing that can stop an alcoholic from drinking. This is the crazy thing, okay? True story. Woman in a meeting, okay?

She is sitting in jail for a DWI, and she gets the news that her daughter got hit by a drunk driver and died. Now she's sitting in jail for a DWI and her daughter gets hit by a drunk driver and dies. Her daughter was 10. Gosh. And in that moment you say, obviously a parent is like, if I had been out of jail, like if I had been there, maybe she wouldn't have died.

I mean, the guilt, the guilt, right? But most people see that, normal drinkers, and they say that right there would be a reason for me to swear off drinking I would never drink again, the loss of my child. And she made that promise to herself in jail. And when she got out, she went and she drank again. This is why people don't understand alcoholism.

It doesn't make sense sense because we would say, why would you do that? Here's the reality. If you asked me when I was drinking, would you give up your job for your alcohol? Would you give up your money? Would you give up your family? Would you give up your life?

Yes, 100%. I would give it all up for alcohol. And that's the crazy thing about an alcoholic is the repercussions consequences mean nothing. I knew another guy, he was the driver. He gets in an accident, he wakes up in jail, he finds out his daughter who was in the car with him died in that accident.

He killed her because he was drunk and he got in an accident. Again, gets out of jail after serving time for intoxicated manslaughter, goes back to drinking. That's the hopelessness of an alcoholic. And people think like willpower, if the death of your own child cannot stop you from drinking, your willpower is no match. And the big book talks about that the only thing

that can save the alcoholic is God himself. That's it. There's no other solution that alcoholics have ever found out. AA has been around for a hundred years. Thousands, tens of thousands of people have achieved recovery in the program. Yeah, I remember when I started this website, I used to have back in the day called The Porn Effect. And if you ever heard of that or whatever, but I was trying to help, whatever. And I shared about essay and things like this. And this fella wrote to me privately, kind of attacking me for sharing this.

And he was saying like, all you gotta do is get on your knees and confession. It's all you gotta do. All this other stuff is unhelpful. I don't say this with any sort of joy, but he was arrested shortly after, you know, in a hotel with hookers and cocaine. And I'm not saying that every, I'm not saying, obviously,

as you said, the Lord can heal us in a moment, the Lord can heal us in confession, but it'd be kind of like saying, well, I broke my leg. Can't the Lord just heal you of your broken leg? Well, yes, but usually how your leg is healed is a natural means. Usually there's a lot of work involved and in a way it's better when that work is involved because then you have to go back and repair. If God just took away my alcoholism in a moment like that and I didn't have to work for it. I'd say, sweet, I'm healed and I'd move on.

But because he hasn't taken it away, what it means is every day my knees hit the floor and I say, Lord, help me today to not take a drink. What's been the hardest drug to overcome? And we can use drug loosely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As someone who has experienced and tried quite a bit of things out there,

quitting alcohol and drugs, actually cigarettes was really hard too, but those things in a way are not easier, but they're black and white. I know where you're going with this, and you're exactly right. My eating disorder, figuring out how to eat like a normal person

after 10 years of making myself vomit after binging on food. Right. That was hard. Same thing with pornography. Figuring out my sexuality. Right. How to use that because these are- You can swear off alcohol and be healthy. Never touch it again.

You can swear off coke and probably be in a better place. Right. Not have bloody noses every morning. Yeah, but sexual desire and the desire for food are natural and good. So now you have to learn how to food or sex. Now you have to learn how to do it in moderation, which is something you've never been able to do. So would it be fair to say it's not that the experience of coke or, God forbid, meth or these sorts of things isn't much more

intense and difficult to give up in one sense than porn. It's just that you now have to live with a healthy sexual desire, whereas you don't have to live with a healthy desire for meth. Right, right. In a way you can eradicate it and kind of not. Now, you do have to fight because as you know, like I have to fight the temptation, because the reality is if you pulled out drugs right now, put them on the table. I don't know what I would do.

I promise I won't do that. Right, right. But yes, I get it. But the would do. I promise I wouldn't do that. Right, right. But yes, I get it. But the reality is like, I'm still an addict. And so I do have to be careful because I think sometimes people can get cocky and say, well, you know, I haven't done that stuff in 10 years. I could be around it.

It's not a big deal. And like, I've seen so many people relapse after 15 years of sobriety and then I'm at their funeral like three days later, like, because it's that quick sometimes, just getting back into it and hitting it hard. But the behavior stuff, and so like sexual stuff, food stuff, stuff that involves like learning now, healthy behaviors and boundaries and that sort of thing, it is challenging because now you're navigating it

and you don't know how, and maybe you've never done it in a healthy way. And like, and it's the same 12 steps, it's the same principles that are helping me to achieve abstinence or sobriety in all aspects, is it's me surrendering to God's will, it's me recognizing my powerlessness, and then it's allowing God to come in and do for me what I can't do for myself. Okay, so it's the same across the board, but there is this added layer of like, okay,

well, how do I do this normally then versus without alcohol? Like I just don't touch it. And in fact, once I got sober, I didn't receive, like when I'd go to mass, I wouldn't receive the blood, right? And I remember there was this one time I was there as the campus minister and the priest, he knew I was the campus minister,

I was sitting up at the front because I had to do the readings. And I guess he has a gluten allergy because there was like a little host in there, he didn't wanna like drink it. And so he comes over to me with the chalice. And now I'm in the middle of mass and I'm like, do I cause a scene?

Do I say, no, I'm an alcoholic, I can't. And I'm just like, and so I just say a quick prayer and I'm like, Lord, turn that wine into water. Let's do a reverse wedding at Cana. Okay. Like just, you know, and, and because I was just put in the spot and I just didn't know what to do. And he's like handing it to me. And so I just like down the hatch and, and you know, it didn't like, I really felt like the Lord performed a miracle and it was not a big deal. Right, right.

But most alcoholics I knew do abstain because like we don't know, maybe, maybe it will, maybe it won't. What's the risk if it does though? What do you think about those who say you really shouldn't be identifying with your sin and to say I am an addict is to identify with something that's actually not your core identity. Yeah, you know, I struggle with that because like, okay, like, I think it's just a matter of knowing. But no, sorry, I don't mean to

catch off. I don't mean to ask you the question and give you the answer, but it just occurred to me that it's sort of like when we say I'm a sinner. I mean, that isn't your core identity. Your core identity is you're a beloved son, but it's important that you remind yourself. So that's what I was going to say. It's a matter of the order. If I know at the core, I am a beloved daughter of God and I'm an alcoholic and I'm this and I'm that and I'm this and I'm that at the core, I know my identity. If I'm asking, if I'm asking God every day, who do you say that I am? He's reaffirming that.

So those other labels, they kind of wash over me. I don't mind telling people I'm a porn addict or an alcoholic. Like I have no problem saying that. And in a way I need to say it because I'll forget. And there are times where I'll have the thought, I could have just one. I mean, I haven't had a drink in like five years. I could totally, there's many times where I'll have the thought, I could have just one. I mean, I haven't had a drink in like five years.

I could totally, there's many times where I'm like, man, it'd be nice to just sit down with my husband and have a glass of wine after a long day. And just, or you know, maybe have two drinks and get a little flirty with him. Like there's times I long for that connection with him. And in my head, I think like, yeah, I could do it. Never in my life have I had just one drink.

And that's why I have to say I'm an alcoholic because the moment I hit cocky and say, Oh, I've been sober for so long. I could handle it. I'll forget. And that's, that's why you can go to a meeting and there's someone in there who's 30 years sober and they're still going to a meeting. How does your husband support you? So he, he went to, it's amazing, when we were dating, I told him about it. And he said, before we get married, I want to go with you to an AA meeting. He's like, because this is obviously a part of who you

are, and it's an important part. And I want to understand it because he's not an alcoholic, he doesn't have any in his family. He's like, and I want to understand you more and understand it. And so he went with me and then he has gone with me a few times to what's called a birthday meeting, which is like when you celebrate years of sobriety. It's your sober birthday and they let you get up and kind of say some things. And he's gone with me a few times

and he's been so supportive. And anytime I'm like, babe, I need to make it to a meeting. He's like, I'll watch the kids. Like he's very, very, very supportive. And it's been a beautiful thing because he drinks around me all the time. I mean, you know, and not a lot, like I said, like he'll drink a half a beer.

It's so, so lame. But, but you know, I'll catch a whiff of it. And you know, it smells great. And like, I remember, well, what's funny is like, I remember and I don't, because if you were to ask me like, what kind of alcohol did you like? It's like, whatever got me drunk is the fastest. Are you kidding?

Like I'd buy the cheapest handle of whatever god awful tequila it was. And I would just, because that's what was there, right? And I would just down it. And I remember one time, I forgot where, I went with my sister, we were at a restaurant and she took a sip of her drink and she goes, ew, and she puts it down.

And we continue eating. And I'm looking at it at the time I was drinking, but like, and I'm on my like, you know, this giant margaritas, I'm on like my third one. And she had put her drink down and I looked at her and I'm like, so you're just not gonna drink that? She's like, I don't like it, it tastes gross. And I'm like-

What does that have to do with anything? I'm like, it doesn't matter if it tastes gross. It's alcohol, like you just throw that down the hatch. Like you don't waste that. The idea that people could appreciate alcohol appropriately and for its taste. Yeah, like that blew my mind. Like if you asked me what beer I liked when I was drinking, it's like, I don't know.

I don't remember even like, like I remember how it tasted, but like not enough to know nuances. Like it was always just, how can I get as drunk as I, as fast as I can, as drunk as I can. And, and it was like every time though, I thought I could have control. Every time, every time I drink, it was like, I'm just gonna have water. I'm just gonna hang out,

I'll just have a couple. And I mean, like I would wake up in weird places and like one time I woke up in the rafters of a concert, it was a Rush concert, I think. And like, I'm in the rafters, making out with some guy who was like the light tech. He was like wearing a vest, he was up there doing the lightings and stuff.

No idea how I got there. I don't even remember who I was at that concert with. I have no idea how I got home. I mean, like that's, so when I talk about, like it was in AA, we say it's like life or death for us. Like for us to drink is to die. That's part of what we mean is like, it gets bad. There were times where like, yeah, I was drinking to like,

you could say I was drinking to Medicaid or you could say I was drinking cause like I was insecure. But there were also times where like, I was drinking for no reason at all, just because it was there and I couldn't stop. And that's the allergy part. The adverse reaction is we crave more to the point, and we can't stop. We just keep going and keep going until we black out,

we throw up, and here's the thing about addiction, is it only leads, there's only two paths. You're either gonna end up on the road to recovery or you're going to die. That's it. In between, maybe you'll go to jail first, maybe you'll go to rehab first, maybe you'll go to a mental institution,

maybe, you know, like there's kind of this winding back and forth, but ultimately at the very end is either sobriety or death and that's it. For an addict or an alcoholic, there's no other path. And so for loved ones, it is truly a devastating thing to witness because you're watching someone destroy everything around themselves. They're killing themselves and they don't care.

Again, consequences don't mean anything. Oh, you lost your job Oh, you lost money. Oh, you got a DWI. I wrecked a car and like That didn't stop me. I got pulled over. You know, it didn't stop me. I Think you know, like I'm thinking about the Internet a and how I don't know if I wouldn't use the term addiction But the dependence we have on technology is such that I could imagine many people saying, you know, would you rather eat one meal a day or have the internet? Internet? Yeah. Would you rather, gosh, how much people would give up so they could stay connected? Yeah. Skip meals, skip out on

functions. There's been many times where like, I've had to be somewhere and I'm either so engrossed in what I'm doing. Especially with porn. It's like, well, I'd rather stay home and binge porn all night than go to some function. I wanted to ask you that. Obviously we have a lot of women who watch this. What's your advice to women who right now are, you know, looking at porn? Maybe they would say they're addicted, maybe then wouldn't say that, but maybe they feel ashamed in it. I mean, it's hard to give blanket advice because it's like people are at different places in the journey. And so it's really hard to be like, oh, this is how I think I asked because

I know that the stigma still remains. Yeah. I remember when I started talking about this a thousand years ago, I'm deeply not, I'm not ashamed, but I'm embarrassed to say that I said what everyone else said back then, that women don't look at porn, it's more romance novels and things like that. I read novels, how insulting. I'm like, you really think I sit around and read a book when I could watch this super enticing thing

that like is way more entertaining? In fairness, I think that's right, but I also think there's no men reading romance novels, and there are women reading romance novels. Maybe older women. So I think there's a sense. Maybe novels and there are women reading romance novels Maybe older women Maybe older women but I would argue that 50 shades of stupid. I mean everyone was reading that stupid book except men And if you tried to write an equivalent for men, they wouldn't read it

So I just I know it's not true that women aren't attracted to visual porn But it's also not true to say that there isn't a sense in which women are attracted to You know like trashy novels in a way that yeah I think it's slightly I think it's a slightly different attraction to because they get why it's insulting Yeah, but then with a with a novel there's also more like there's more Sometimes just romance involved or like like fantasy involved whereas like with pornography Like I'm not romanticizing that guy. I'm not like, oh wow, I really like him. You know, I think it's a much more physical sort of thing

that's happening. And as far as for women, it's like, I kind of have the same thing that I would say to men, in that it is going to be the hardest thing, maybe the hardest thing that you will ever have to overcome. And it's going to be the hardest thing, maybe the hardest thing that you will ever have to overcome. And it's going to feel many days like you will never get there, but like to not give up.

Because for me, I mean, at my height, I was maybe watching pornography like 13 times a day or something like hours of it, staying up all night. My grades had changed. I wasn't like going to work out. Like I was willing to trade in everything to get high on this stuff, right? And I'm like, man, there's no hope for someone like me.

Like maybe someone is like, oh, once a week I do this. Like, okay, maybe there's hope for them because it's not that big of an issue. But I'm like, I can't stop. I remember one time, like my parents took away my internet and I'm in my car and I'm driving around my laptop and I'm hitting refresh to look for wifi so I and I'm in my car and I'm driving around my laptop and I'm hitting refresh to look for wifi so I can watch it in my car.

And it felt like I was looking for drugs. Like I'm driving around in the car, looking for a spot to pull over and get high. And I was like, man, this is addiction. This is addiction. So I do wanna affirm that like, sometimes people say things like, it's not really an addiction and stuff. And it's like, it's not up to anyone else to affirm that like, sometimes people say things, it's not really an addiction

stuff. And it's like, it's not up to anyone else to decide, but you, right? Like, you know, if you have a true problem with it or not, because I do know a couple people who are like, could take it or leave it. I think they're much more than minority. I think it's, it's become. Well, I think it also depends on how you want to define addiction to. I think that's the very first thing I want to ask somebody who says it's not an addiction,

because there's a psychological definition, there's a neurological definition. And a common psychological definition is repeating a behavior that you want to stop and feel like you can't or a repeated behavior with adverse consequences that you cannot seem to quit. Something like that. Like, so if that's how you're defining it, then yeah, of course porn can be an addiction for people. Yeah, so in the 12 step programs, first of all, we say that no one can determine if you're an alcoholic except for you or addict.

And the way that we kind of define it is, if you've ever tried to limit the amount you drink and you couldn't, or if you've ever tried to stop and you couldn't, you're addicted. So by limiting the amount, so maybe in the instance of porn, maybe you've said, okay, well, I'm only going to watch it once a week, or I'm only going to watch this kind of porn, and you can't seem to regulate it. Like you can't seem to put any sort of like, okay, this is the last, like, and then the whole, like, if you've ever tried to quit, and then you couldn't stay quit,

like you couldn't just not touch it again. If you've ever tried to quit, then perhaps. And again, it's something that you have to determine. See, all right, I'm thinking of playing devil's advocate here, right? Because all of us, unless we're perfect, struggle with sins of different kinds. And it might be gossip, it might be pride, it might be slander. I mean, there's a whole host of things, you know. But I wouldn't say, you know, let's say somebody gossips and they're trying to stop. And I don't know if you would say gossips and addiction just because you've told yourself you will never gossip again.

And then you had a relapse into gossiping. Yeah, well, I do think there's like the, the, um, Neurological component. Yes, the brain component. I think that plays a part because what, what is happening with pornography is very similar to drugs and alcohol. So I think it's more in that camp. Yeah, I agree. Whereas things like gossip or pride or whatever,

you're not quite having that intense of a reaction in your brain. The same centers that light up, aren't being lit up with some of those other sins. Yeah, it's not like, I imagine it's not the way for most people where they're like a temptation to gossip and they're like, I won't. Yeah, and then they get a hit from it. They're like, I need to gossip.

Yeah, there's no rush. Well, maybe there's a little bit. There's a rush, but it's not the same thing. Yeah, I think there's a greater thing at play, especially when we have some of these more physical things and then the bodily response, hormones, endorphins, all that sort of thing. And then the brain stuff.

So I think in that way, like it's more in that camp, but I will say like, it is such a lonely struggle because again, it's like when I was trying to overcome shoplifting, like you're not necessarily gonna go around and tell people like, hey, I didn't watch porn today. Like, hey, I didn't masturbate today. You know, like, and so your little victories

are gonna seem so small and like uncelebrated. Like they go on notice and like, almost like it doesn't matter. Oh, so what, you made it 24 hours. But that's not true. That's not true. Every victory you have is a victory. It's scaling a mountain.

It's overcoming something that you could have given into. So I would say that this is why it is very important that one has whatever you want to call it, an accountability partner or a sponsor, which is a little different. I know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a group.

Because that person will actually congratulate you. Yeah. They'll rejoice with you. And if they've gone through it themselves, they know how hard it was. They know what you had to do, the blood, sweat and tears, how many times you fought off the temptation, the thoughts, or maybe had to get out of your house and that sort of thing. And so I think that's an important thing to get people there because the other thing is every addiction that I know of that

really takes over thrives in isolation because you have to kind of push people out. Let's say you start off as I did, I felt like I was a social drinker, like, oh, I only drink at parties. All right, maybe I started off like that a little bit, but it wasn't very long before I was drinking alone in my room with empty bottles under my bed, passing out, blacking out, all alone,

crying, lots of tears, right? Not even wanting to drink. There were so many times I remember like pouring a glass of vodka and I'd just be like sobbing because I'm like, I don't even want to do this, man. Like I'm tired, you know, I'm hung over. I have the shakes like, and just not, you know, like again, not having that choice. And, and I think, I think pornography is that same way

is maybe it might start off where you're like, oh no, it's not a big deal. But if it progresses, which addictions do, they're progressive in nature, at some point you will get to a point to where you're cheating on your spouse or to where you're missing out on occasions because you get caught up or maybe you lose a job

because you get caught watching pornography. You start planning your day around it. Right, yeah. And so that happens too. So you need a community, you need that other person, you need to get out of that isolation because in that isolation, it's so much easier to just keep going because you can get away with it.

It's like, well, if no one's expecting me to show up to any social event, then I can just stay home all day and watch porn, right? But if people are counting on me, in fact, in the program, if I'm struggling, if I call my sponsor and I'm like, look, like I kind of want a drink, they say, go do something nice for someone right now.

Go do an act of service. Get out of your head, get out of yourself. And that action right there is enough to like get you over that little hump. And maybe right after that, you're like, I still want a drink. Then they say, okay, go do something else. Nice for someone, okay?

And if you keep doing that, it's like, you are, you're serving Christ and others. Was there ever a time where you had to go and ask somebody to lock you in their house? Or like, please don't let me leave this room. But the thing is when you're at that point, you're not at the point where you want to make a decision. You're at a point where you just want to go drink and rationality flies out the window. Yeah, yeah, it is hard. It is hard to get to that point. I mean, there have been times

where I like was really depressed. And I remember there's been maybe like two times where I asked like my mom or, you know, someone to hold my guns for me sort of sort of thing. I don't know that I ever did it quite with alcohol. Although with alcohol in the beginning I just avoided you know I used to love playing pool. I loved playing pool and I had to avoid pool halls. I loved going to concerts and I remember like my first concert without like downing beers I'm like what do I do with my hands? And like, it was just, it was awkward. I had to learn, I had to relearn how to do the kind of these social things. But it's hard to want to ask for help

when if you're in a certain mindset. Now this is what the sponsor is there to kind of help you with because most likely if you're working your program, your first reaction is let me call my sponsor, right? If you're not working the program, your first reaction is kind of like, my sponsor, right? If you're not working in the program, your first reaction is kind of like, well, I could maybe have just one, and like, you can kind of get caught up in your head

and you don't want to call your sponsor, you don't want to do these things. And I remember, to kind of illustrate that point, I was working in my program and I was maybe two years sober in AA, still trying to navigate some of these other things. And I went to this, I remember I was like, man, I am, now that I'm sober, I'm such a nice person.

And so I go to Hallmark to go buy birthday cards for people and anniversary cards. And I'm like, I'm so nice. Look at how I'm buying all these cards for people. And while I'm there, I see something, I think it's like a pair of socks or something random that, why is Hallmark even selling this?

But I wanted it. And I saw the price and it was like, no, I'm not gonna pay that for a pair of socks. Like that's crazy, but I want them. And so I'm like, well, I'm just gonna steal them because it's their fault for setting the price too high. Okay, this is addict thinking, right? It's everyone's fault, but mine as an addict.

So I steal the pair of socks and I pay for my cards because I'm sober now and I'm such a good person, but I steal the pair of socks and I pay for my cards because I'm sober now and I'm such a good person, but I steal the socks. And so then I get out to my car and I sit in my car and I wait till Hallmark closes because they were about to close. And then I call my sponsor and I say, hey, I just stole from the store.

And so we'll go back in there right now and take it, ask to see the manager and give it to, and I'm like, oh, they're closed. And they're like, well, first thing tomorrow morning, you are coming back and you're returning them. Have you done that? Okay, so the next morning I'm driving there and I'm thinking like, I'm thinking of my story

and I'm like, I know what I'll say. I'll be like, oh, my nephew was in the store and he's just a kid. And he's like, six years old, he took these here. So I'm like, I know what I'll say. I'll be like, oh, my nephew was in the store and he's just a kid. And he's like, you know, six years old, he took these here. Like, so I'm gonna return them. But again, it's not my fault, even though it very clearly is. And so I go in there, I ask to see the manager and the manager comes out

and I'm holding this stupid pair of socks. And I'm like, I feel so dumb because now I have to admit that I stole this. And like, look at what I stole. Yeah. It wasn't even like, it wasn't even a cell phone or something, you know, something like here's a dumb pair of socks. Okay.

And I'm standing there and I'm like, I'm like just dreading this moment. And I look at her and I said, hi, I'm working a program. I'm trying to get sober and get my life together. I said, and I still struggle and I'm failing in many ways. I still fail. I'm like, but I am trying to make things right. And I stole this from you yesterday. What can I do to make it right? I'm willing to accept whatever consequences you have for me. Wow. Okay. I'm saying all this because my sponsor told me that's what I need to say. Not because I want to, right?

But being willing to, this is the thing of recovery, being willing to accept whatever consequences, she could say, I'm calling the cops. Right. And I have to accept that. So I'm standing there and she gets tears in her eyes. And she looks at me and she says, my sister has been addicted to heroin for 10 years.

And she says, I just pray that one day she can be in a program like yours. And she's holding, and I'm holding these socks and she's got her hands on my hands. And we're having this moment in this hallmark store. And I realized that my drinking was about me, but even early in recovery, I made my recovery about me. And the program says, it's not about my recovery about me." And the program says,

it's not about you. It's about, the program says, once you turn your life over to the care of God, you are only concerned with two things for the rest of your life. How you can be of maximum service to God and to others. That's it. When you pray, you pray, Lord, thy will not mine be done. That is your only prayer. You don't pray for things you want because you pray, Lord, thy will not mine be done. That is your only prayer. You don't pray for things you want because you are selfish. You are an addict, you're an alcoholic. You will always put yourself first.

And even on a curvy, that's what I was doing. I made these talks all about me. God knew, God, out of all the managers and all the stores and all the, God knew, this was actually about this lady and giving her a little glimmer of hope because she's in a dark place because her sister is going to die if she doesn't get sober. Did you call your sponsor and tell him or her?

Yeah. Yeah. I call my sponsor and I told her afterwards and she's like, very good and hangs out. I'm sure there are good, but now I'm sure there are AA and SA. They're not all created equal. And to me, to my mind, having not been to one, it seems like a really bad idea if one is associated themselves as being addicted to sex or pornography, because these are very different things, it turns out, to be in a group with other people of

the opposite sex. Yeah. I went to a, when I first was trying to get sober, I was in and out of 12 set meetings, probably eight years before I got any sort of length of sobriety. I was in and out of 12-set meetings probably eight years before I got any sort of length of sobriety. I would go, I'd be like, yeah, it's not for me. I'd go, I'd be like, it is for me. And like I was on the fence, I was going back and forth. And at some point, I didn't care anymore

that I was walking into a room full of men and saying, hi, I'm Breanne and I'm a sex addict. I didn't care that I was saying that anymore. And I didn't care that it was men. And I didn't care, because I was drowning. And when you're drowning, you're like someone throw me a life raft. Someone throw me a life preserve.

You don't care who knows. Like I, at first I cared, because it's like, no, like I wanna do this, but I wanna do it discreetly. Or I don't, you know. And I'm not saying everyone has to do this. This was my experience. Okay At some point I was like I don't care anymore I need help I am as desperate as these men are I would sit in the rooms and they would all share and I would

Identify with everything they said. I mean I get it. I get that but should you have cared? That's my point Like wouldn't it be much more healthy if you were able to find a group of just women? There are women groups. The issue with that is the women groups perhaps meet, if you're lucky, if you're lucky to find a woman group, maybe it meets once a week. Whereas men's groups, you'll find 10 of them a day all over town. You could go in the morning, afternoon, and I needed it frequently. You know, and so I would go to the women's weekly meeting, but in between I was going to meetings with men. And I'll tell you, 10 years in and out of SAA,

I never had any incident ever. I never had a man say anything to me, I never had a man approach me afterwards, because here's the thing about, AA, you can get sent there by the judge, you can be court ordered, same thing with narcotics anonymous and cocaine anonymous, all that.

And so you have some people that are literally like there because they have to be there. You don't find that in SAA. The people who are in a sex addicts anonymous meeting are broken. They have their wife left them, their kids don't talk to them. They've maybe done some time even over their addiction.

They can't stop spending money on prostitutes. Like they are desperate for help. And so I did not find in this, sometimes you can find people who are half, like they're not really invested in recovery in some of those other groups, but with SSA, I never found that to be the case. Like if you're going to a meeting,

you're saying, hi everyone, I'm a sex addict. God bless them. It's bad. It's bad It's like that is your last because no one wants to do that That's not your first your first resort is like I'm gonna figure this out on my own I'm gonna solve this on my own again not in this world And so forgive me if this is wrong or sensitive that it would seem to me that in some circles It might even be trendy to be an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic and I'm working on myself, but to say I'm a sexaholic

Nothing appealing about that, you know trendy to be an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic and I'm working on myself, but to say I'm a sexaholic or sex. There's nothing appealing about that. You know, and this is again, why I think eating disorders and sex addictions are so hard is because if I tell someone like I'm getting sober and I don't use drugs anymore, they're like, oh, good for you. Like you get a pattern, like people, it's almost like it's more acceptable.

Now. That's what I mean, yeah. It's been around a lot longer than these other things. Okay. And I think these other things still confuse people. They don't know, when you tell them, like I- I was on a plane ride, about to give a big talk on pornography, and I was writing a book on pornography. And so I'm reading the white book,

Sexaholics Anonymous, right? So I'm on the plane and I'm sitting by the window seat and I'm reading this book and I get up and go to the bathroom and I come back and I realize that the cut because the white book is just white for those at home. There's no writing on the side. They make it very anonymous. But of course, it had curled over.

So I'm like, oh crap, what do I say? This is for work. So I just said nothing. Yeah. And see, so it can be awkward because I think also like people don't know how to handle that. They don't have maybe any experience. Like I said, I think most people know someone in their life who has become addicted to some sort of substance. But like, you know, with like, with eating disorders,

like people have no clue where to start with that. You're like, I'm in recovery for an eating disorder. They're like, okay, like, yeah, like, I don't know what that means. You look okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, how, so what about with, so how do you, you know, someone's early in recovery with alcohol, they know not to go into a bar.

What do you, what, sorry, what do you have, what measures do you have to set up to not fall back into pornography? So for me, it's like I will not watch a show that has any kind of sex scene in it at all Like I really want to watch Oppenheimer that seems like it would have been a cool movie But I've heard that there's gross stuff in it. So I can't you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah, but what do you what is it for you? So there's the saying in recovery that you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to achieve sobriety. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes. Now, until you are willing to do whatever it takes,

you will do what's called half measures and they will avail you nothing, okay? You're going to say, well, I know my computer's a problem, but I don't wanna get rid of it. So I'll put a filter on it. Okay, then you find a way around that, right? And so you're gonna do these half, you're gonna try all these measures because until you're willing to do whatever it takes,

you're not actually gonna reach it. If you are truly addicted, you will always find a way. I mean, alcohol is not allowed in jail. And I know plenty of people who get wasted in jail, okay? So you will find a way until you're willing to do whatever it takes. And in the instance of pornography, there's a lot of things you can do,

but until you're willing to do it, you're not gonna do it. If someone says, hey, your phone's causing you to sin, like your phone's causing you to slip in pornography, like just get rid of it. If you're not willing to do that, you're not ready. Because an addict who surrenders everything to God and says, I'm powerless, they recognize they're powerless, which means they can't do things

that normal people can do. When I got into recovery, I was so mad at first because I was young, I was like 24, 25. And I'm like, all my other friends get to go out and drink, or these people get to have a toast at their wedding, their own wedding. Right? Like, well, how come I don't? And there's this sense of entitlement of like, it's not fair, God, other people get to have cell phones, other people get to do these things. It's like, okay, but I'm not other people. Look at my, like, hello, look at my life,

look at my behaviors, I'm clearly not other people. And that radical surrender of like, okay, that's right. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, even if it looks different, even if it's weird, even if I don't get to watch this movie that everyone says is really great if I have to do that For me in my recovery. I have to be willing to do that and that willingness There is key the big books like that's part of the first step you have to be willing If you don't and that's that's why it's so hard to help an alcoholic or an addict is because until they are willing

They're not actually going to do it. Wow. You know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. And that's kind of the same concept. You can say, here's a great book to overcome your addiction. Here's some meetings you can go to. But they have to be willing to do whatever it takes. And that oftentimes takes rock bottom or like a level of desperation that I think

as a loved one, you just have to pray doesn't involve death. Like you have to pray that somebody hits rock bottom before they die. And we same thing with pornography, that they hit rock bottom before they end up in jail. Or in my case, it was suicide. Like pornography was going to kill me because I wanted to kill myself over it, right? And so in that sense, it was killing me. Killing my soul too, if you wanna bring that up. But that is where it leads. That's where all addictions lead, is to death.

And that's why it's so serious. And people are like, well, I just want to do something. It's like, you can pray for the person. Again, you can try to set up healthy boundaries. You can support them in the recovery. Like, hey, the moment you want to get sober, I'll drive you to meetings. Like, you can, there are things you can do

to support someone in it. But at the end of the day, they have to want it themselves. And I'm grateful that I had parents who always took me back, but not everyone has parents who are willing to do that because maybe there's other kids in the house and they've been a danger, and so now they've told their addict son, like you can't come in our house anymore

and that sort of thing, but there's still things that parents can do to support him in recovery. Maybe you don't welcome him into your home with open arms, but maybe you get him a place for a while, or maybe take him to meetings, or you find a halfway house. And there are tangible measures, so I don't want to make it sound like, oh, there's literally nothing you can do. Obviously you can pray as well, but like it- I like what you said, you can't desire sobriety in place of the addict. As we begin to wrap up, I would like to maybe kind of throw out some really helpful resources.

Again, they're not Band-Aids, they're not, you know, we've made those caveats and yet there are things that are helpful. Yes. I'll throw out a couple. If you're a man who wants to be free of porn, I created a 21 day detox from porn course called strive21.com.

It's free. Thousands of men have gone through it. Again, none of this is a silver bullet, but you might find that helpful. A friend of mine created a ministry called Magdala Ministries. We'll put a link for that in the description. They have video groups and chats.

If you're a woman who wants to overcome porn or masturbation, that could be a place to reach out to someone else. Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm a big proponent of 12 step groups. One of the main reasons is they're free. You can go to rehab and pay 40 grand, right? But a lot of people don't have that kind of money. And even a therapist, therapists aren't cheap. And a lot of people don't have that kind of money. And I'm not, therapists aren't cheap. And a lot of people don't have that kind of money. And I'm not saying not to do those things. If you have the means, certainly do them. But I know for a long time,

I felt like I was never gonna achieve sobriety because I didn't have that kind of money. What do you say to someone who's like, I'm not gonna show my face to a group of people I don't know. Okay, well, in that case, I will say that there are online meetings and phone meetings.

And so you can frequent those. But I will say that after a while, you need to get to the point to where you start making those in-person connections. Because here's the thing with phone meetings, is it's like people can be doing all sorts of things. Maybe they're not listening. You're like pouring your heart out sharing.

When you're in a room, you're, you know, I remember this one time, this guy, he was a crack head and an alcoholic, but crack was his first love. And let me tell you something, when crack heads get sober, they are amazing. They have an energy and a passion that only a crack head could have,

but now they have it about sobriety. And this man one time, man, he said what everyone in the room was thinking, because again, he was a crack head. He has literally lived on the streets. He does not care. He does not have shame. He's like, I've hit rock bottom.

So there was this kid in the meeting. I say kid, a young guy, and he was on his phone. And he was on his phone like the whole time. And of course people are sharing and people, and he was on his phone, and he was on his phone like the whole time. And of course, people are sharing and people, and there's no like hard, fast rules in meetings. We have suggestions and stuff, but like, he stops. He says, excuse me, young man. And he like goes over to the kid who's like on his phone.

And he says, some of us in here are in here because our lives depend on it. He says, I don't know what brought you here. He's like, but out of respect for the people here are in here because our lives depend on it. He says I don't know what brought you here He's like but out of respect for the people who are in here pouring out their heart and their soul Bless him. Yeah, you should put your phone down or step outside if you're gonna play your games on your phone And he said what all of the rest of us were too afraid to say but because he was a crackhead He was like, I don't yeah, I've seen some stuff. I've lived a life. And so I think, yes, you can do phone meetings, especially with SAA stuff. I understand that

there's a level of shame there, but allow the Lord to work through that and get you to the place to where eventually you're making these in-person real life connections because that's going to be far more fruitful than like random voices on a phone that you can't tell if they're listening. And someone's yelling at their kids and someone's phone isn't muted and they're doing dishes.

Same thing with Zoom, same thing. Some of them, I asked somebody once, what do you say to people like that? And he said, if you're afraid that people will see you there, well, you'll also see them there. Yeah. I thought that was a good answer. and that happened to me as some, a guy that I had acted out with and he had acted. I, I was a minor. Okay.

And he was, he was, he was a cop. He had a professional job. He was, he was a camp, like a school resource officer. So like a cop that worked with kids and years later, I run into him in a meeting and, um, and I remember seeing him and of course he saw me. And obviously that's quite awkward because he knows what I did and I know what he did, but we did it to each other. And so there's-

But you were a minor, so. Yeah, but so he's definitely in bigger trouble. But here's the thing is I'm sitting there and I'm like, that is the ruthlessness of this disease, of this addiction, is it has brought this grown man to his knees. It's brought me to my knees. And here we are, two broken people in this room, desperate for help, so desperate that we don't care if people see our face. Now, a big part of 12-step programs is anonymity. You don't use your last name. You're not supposed to say where you work, what you do, that sort of thing.

And they say at the end of every meeting, what is said here when you leave here, let it stay here. And everyone agrees, like, you know, we're not gonna share these things and that sort of thing. We're gonna protect your anonymity. You can like kind of share some things, but you have to like just be careful to not necessarily mention like details

that could give away someone's identity. But that's a big part of it. And so I do think like there is a level of protection that's there and I get that not everyone's there yet, but you have to be willing to do whatever it takes for your sobriety. And sometimes that means getting a little uncomfortable. And you're not, you walk into a meeting, you can walk out.

If it's too much after a while, you walk out. Like no one's, you're not trapped there. Nobody's gonna force you to be there. So I think that's a great resource. Al-Anon is a huge resource for those who have loved ones. Go to a meeting, sit around with a bunch of... One of my dear friends, he was a kid who used to be in youth group, and I went to a couple AA meetings with him.

He had a love for drugs, but he also had a love for alcohol, so we'd go to AA meetings for... Because the 12 steps are the same 12 steps in every program, and AA is kind of like the one that started, and so they all kind of fall under that umbrella, so you can go to that, and it kind of applies to all of them. And him and I went to meetings and two months ago, I was at his funeral, you know, he relapsed and he died.

And his mother though, had years ago, started going to Al-Anon. And what was incredible was to see her journey of recovery. This broken mother who had just been through the wringer with her son starts her own journey and she starts to come to life and she starts to allow the Lord to heal her wounds because she's so broken from him.

And it's hard because like we love these people but they're not themselves when they're doing these things. And it's this weird mind, like you're like, but you're my son and I love you, and like, but you're hurting me, and you're hurting the family, and you're destroying things. And it's so conflicting, it's so complex.

And when he died, I went over to her house, and there was this surrender that she had because she had worked a program. That the death of her addict's son was not destroying her in the way that I've seen it destroy some other parents who internalize it, it's all their fault, or maybe they're resentful, like, I can't believe, it's so complex.

Again, there's a lot of emotions going on, but she was like, it was like seeing a miracle to just see how she handled it with such grace and such surrender, like love for the Lord still. And she wasn't angry and she wasn't bitter. And of course she felt all the emotions that a parent does when they lose a child. Like she was still utterly devastated,

but she had worked on herself and you could see it. You could see the difference. And so I really encourage that. I think that's a great resource. And speaking of those who have to journey along those who are hurting them, there's a good resource called bloomforwomen.com. So if you're a wife whose husband is hooked on porn.

That's a tough one. Yeah. That's a tough, because as a woman, let me tell you, like all my insecurities can come out because it's like, I'm not good enough. Like he's having to go to other things and not me. And it just, and it feels like infidelity because it is, you know, he's, so that's a really difficult one. So if you're a woman in that situation, I definitely think,

I mean, and a man too, I think it's equally as difficult if she's struggling with pornography because again, it's, it's something that like they're not necessarily there. Yes, they're choosing it, but usually if somebody is choosing it, it's after years of having struggled with it. And so like, having been exposed to it when they were a child and that sort of thing. And so I think that's another, okay,

I want to throw out another resource before I forget is, um, and people might be like, there's not a resource. I think it's a great resource is, is the Catholic church. And I know this is going to sound cliche because like, you know, praying doesn't make it go away. However, however, there were so many times I crawled into a church after having slipped, after having a bender, after sleeping around, after whatever it was, and the church, like Christ was there in the tabernacle, or the sacrament of confession was

there. And there were many massive breakthroughs I had because I kept returning to God. Instead of turning my back and saying, well, I'm just gonna psychoanalyze this, or I'm just gonna do the 12 steps, or I'm just gonna, like, instead of saying, I'll go back to church when I have it together, I'm like, uh-uh, I'm going there as messy as I've ever been because I know that that place is where God wants me to be.

Like, he does not want me to get it together first. And there were many times I like frequented the sacraments, mass, confession, that sort of thing, or even just sitting in a church. And I remember one time I went in there and I had been drinking, and I sit in the back, and I'm sitting in a church church and I just feel so ashamed that I'm there drunk. And a priest walks up and I kind of tell him, I said, no, look, father, like, I don't know why I'm even sitting in this church, like, look at me, like I'm wasted. And God, like Jesus is there in the tabernacle

and he's seeing me in this pathetic state that like I've done this to myself and I do it every day and I can't stop and I'm so hopeless and there's no, and He kind of stops me and He's like, well, of course Christ sees you. He's like, but He would see you if you were out there too. And like I'm a fool to think like, oh, now that I'm in church, God sees me, but when I'm wasted outside of the church, He doesn't see me. And I needed, that was a huge breakthrough because it's like, there's no different. Like just cause I'm not in a building means like He can't see me somehow.

You know? And those little breakthroughs that I had, little moments of grace in confession where priests would say something or, I remember for the longest time, I grew up a tomboy, right? I ride a Harley, I have tattoos, I shoot guns, smoke cigars, like I've always been very tomboyish. And so when people would like talk about their relationship with the blessed mother, I just could not,

because every photo I saw of Mary, she looks so prim and proper. And she was just so graceful and like womanly. And I'm like, ah, like I just couldn't identify until I saw the image of the seven sorrows, like the sorrowful mother. And she's got this heart, look it up people. She's got this heart and it's like,

got all these swords going through it, right? It's actually pretty metal, all right? And as someone who used to listen to a ton of metal, I was like, wow, that's, that's, that I can identify with, okay? Being stabbed in the heart, right? The wounds, the pain, the suffering, the sorrow, I'm like, that's the Mary I can identify with. Now, if I had given up on the church or given up on Mary, I wouldn't have that devotion. And so I think there is something about going back to the church, picking up Saint's writings,

picking up scripture, even when maybe it seems like God hasn't really done much with it in a while or spoken to us or we're still struggling with this sin or that sin. I just think about how, like as bad as things got, how much worse they could have been if I had completely turned my back on God. Because there was, and now in a way it was harder this way too, because I had like one foot in one world and one in the other, and that like starts to like split you apart and it's hard to have that kind of like duality and it, you know, you feel like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde because you go to mass on Sunday, but then you're doing these other things during the week.

And sometimes I did wish, like I kind of wished that I didn't believe in God because then I could indulge in these things and not have the guilt or not have the shame or not. Like then I could just be free for all and I'd be happy. And you know, that's what I told myself, right? But now I look back and I'm like, I mean I'd probably be dead. I mean I'd probably be dead because if there was nothing, I mean at least every now and then I had the shame to say,

let me get my butt back into confession or let me try again. I failed. Let me go to mass. Let me you know pick up the daily readings. And there was this constant desire to try to run back to the Lord. And I think this is why my story is oftentimes, people oftentimes focus on like what I did in the extremes of it. And they're like, I can't relate to that. But like, I think the more,

the relatable thing in a story is like, how often I fell and had to get back up. And then it's like, okay, now I'm in the convent. Okay, but now I'm drinking again. Okay, but now I'm... And I think that's the more common conversion story, is that this is a daily conversion we have to have. Every day I have to repent of my sins. Every day I have to beg the Lord to save me from myself. My prayer in the morning is, Lord, help me to remain teachable. It's so simple. Help me to remain teachable. Because if I can remain teachable, you can show me the next right thing to do. Because a lot of times, I don't know how to handle situations, because I am selfish, and I

struggle with pride, and I have this inclination towards sin. So if I can remain teachable, God can show me and he can teach me and he can lead me and he can guide me. And I think that's the story of my conversion. I wish I had that moment that you sometimes hear. And it seems, again, it seems so nice because there's a clear cut moment. There's a bow.

There's a bow on it and it's pretty. But if I tell you, every day I have like return to God because every day I slip up. And that's the other beauty of working a program is every night when a program is actually written and very heavily inspired by Catholics, which is why I'm not surprised when someone's in recovery and there you hear like they're going to become Catholic. Like when Shia LaBeouf said it and then Russell Brand, okay, like Catholic, like when Shia LaBeouf said it and then Russell Brand, okay, like I'm kind of not surprised because it was heavily influenced by a Jesuit priest and also a nun. And so the steps themselves are pretty in line with church teaching. And at the end of the day, you take an inventory in the same way that you do an examination

of conscience, right? In the program, you take an inventory and you say, okay, like, where did I fall short today? Who do I owe an apology to? And you know, you apologize to God and you start every day with prayer. And so the program itself, if you really commit to it, I mean, it's just like, it's like a rocket ship

that leads you closer to the Lord. And so- Have you written your story? Is it online? Are you online anywhere? You know, look, I wanted to, I wanted to write a book, but here's the thing. We're just wanting to start with something like that. You know, it's one of those things where I'm like, I don't know how to, how do you just sit down and write and then who publishes it and where does it go and how does it, how

does it work? And so I've always wanted to kind of write a book and especially with, I mean, I only shared a fraction of stories. I mean, there's so many other incredible things that God did through some of those ministries and that sort of thing. So any publishers out there, let me know what I need to do. But I'm not, I don't really have

an established presence online. I will give out an email address because what now Sure, you were gonna get Slam and that's okay. Okay, that's okay Because you know what like at this point at this point in my life like the Lord is in charge I say that because I've had people on the show do that before and then reach out to me. Oh my gosh We had Christopher Weston here. Yeah, and he, if you've had a vasectomy, we will pay to get it reversed. If you reach out to us. And by we, he meant the Theology

of the Body Institute. He reached out to me recently. He's like, dude, I don't know how we're going to do it. Like it's like well over a hundred grand now we need to raise. So, well, thankfully you're not offering to pay people. There's nothing monetary involved. And also I'm not Christopher West. Well, yeah, but the platform, it'll go far and wide. So as we wrap up, what is your email and final word? Yes, so I'll give it up. So it's the one I created for the victory interview.

It's kind of like my email, and I've been corresponding with many women and men who are- God bless you. Yeah, we've been going back and forth. And look, I'm a mother, so I'm busy. And so I'm gonna say right now, I'm gonna give out my email address and I'll get back to you when I get back to you. Yeah, we've been going back and forth. And look, I'm a mother, so I'm busy. And so I'm gonna say right now, I'm gonna give out my email address and I'll get back to you when I get back to you.

Maybe it's a day, maybe it's a week, maybe it's two weeks, right? But I do think I have to put myself out there because it's a part of my program now. The big book says I have to be of maximum service to God and to others. You know what's of maximum service to me? Saying, don't email me, leave me alone,

I have other things to do. That benefits me a lot because I do have other things to do. Turns out. But if God wants me to journey with someone, that's what he wants me to do. And so I look to him for that like discretion of like, okay, how much time do I invest in this?

And again, if I'm turning to them every day, I don't have to be overwhelmed by it. I take it one day at a time. So the person in front of me, and I actually correspond with a lot of people via letter too. So people would rather that, like I think that's fun too. But I'll give out my email.

So it's the victory that's V, well, we'll put it in the show. It's victory the way it's victories. Yeah, we'll put it in the show. Let's just say it anyway, just in case someone is having a bad way it's Victory's spelled. Yeah, we'll put it in the show, but say it anyway just in case Thursday's having a bad day. Victory Brianne, yeah, my name is Brianne. So that's B-R-E-A-N-N-E.

People always wanna spell it with an I. There's no I's. At Gmail. Okay, victorybrianne.gmail.com. And you can reach out, and again, I'll respond when I can, if I can. And even if it's just like a, hey, like thanks for sharing your story, because here's the thing, here's the thing. And you know this, I'm gonna walk out and again, I'll respond when I can, if I can. And even if it's just like a, hey, like thanks for sharing your story

because here's the thing, here's the thing. And you know this, I'm gonna walk out of here and I'm gonna be like, why did I say that like that? Or, you know, like the devil gets into your head, like you shared too much or what were you thinking? Like thinking that your story would inspire anyone. Like right now everyone's judging you, people can't believe what you did, you know,

or you didn't share enough, you shared too much, all those thoughts. And so even if your email is just like, hey, thanks for sharing, it really blessed me, that's fine too. Maybe correspondence isn't even needed. Maybe I need the emails, everything in that. You think I'm gonna be bombarded?

Maybe I need that to help me knock it in my head about it because it's hard not to internalize, or let the insecurities kind of well up, because every time things didn't work out, I always internalize it like, well, something's wrong with me then. I think you shared beautifully and vulnerably, and you kind of revealed who we are, I am.

It's not like sin's so boring in a way, but what is beautiful is vulnerability and trust. I think that's why we have to share our stories because what we find is like, we're not that different. And like we all, again, we put the social media face on and we're like, no, no, no, but like, look, look, look, I have it together. But it's like, if I can sit here and say like, no, no, no, like I'm so broken and life is so messy and it's still hard. Like, yeah, okay, I'm eight years sober, but again, like my head has not hit the pillow tonight yet. So the day's not over. So today has not been guaranteed as far as my sobriety goes.

And not just my sobriety, but like, was I loving to my husband? Did I apologize to my kids when I yelled at them? Like there's so much work that we have to do every day. And I think if we can just all acknowledge that we're struggling with those things, then it's like, all right, all right, we're in this together then. And it's not like, so it's not so overwhelming at that point. It's, it's still hard, right? Because we're in it together,

but like we don't always have the help that we want, but it's not overwhelming. I think that way. Thank you. This has been wonderful. Thank you for flying all the way out here, having a terrible night's sleep. Thank you so much.