Pints With Aquinas - BONUS | Lizzie Reezay's public conversion

Episode Date: January 4, 2019

Many of you have asked me to interview Lizzie Reezay—who has well over 200,000 subscribers on Youtube! Well, I heard you, and did just that. We talk about what it was like converting from Protestantism to Catholicism in such a public way. Learn more about Lizzie here. See her Youtube channel here. SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Good morning, everybody, buddy, buddy. First week of the new year, how's it going? How's that new year's resolution panning out for you? One week ago, you were talking about working out every morning, eating well, I hope that's going well, and you're not listening to this curled up in warm laundry, eating bread. Today, I interview a young woman by the name of Lizzie Rizze. Now,

many of you have reached out to me and have asked me to do this interview. Lizzie has well over 200,000 subscribers to her YouTube channel. Not long ago, she was a staunch Protestant who had a lot of misunderstandings about the Catholic faith, but the more she learned about Catholicism, the more charmed she became and more convinced she became of the church's truth claims. And not long ago now announced her decision to become a Catholic. And so she has been, she's now a full-fledged Catholic. And today we talk about what that was like. I think you're going to really enjoy the show, even if you're an evangelical. I hope I've made this abundantly clear. If you're a Protestant listening to me, I love you. I think

you are freaking awesome. I think we Catholics can learn a lot from you. Do I want you to be Catholic? Yeah, I do, because I love you. And I think that Catholicism is the fullness of Christianity. But I don't ever want to come across as like a patronizing guy who thinks I'm better than you, because God knows I'm a schmuck, you know, and I have a lot of evangelical friends in my life and I learn a lot from them. So, also along the same lines, I just got an amazing message over Patreon from one of my patrons. I want to read it to you. I'm going to withhold the man's name because he asked me to, but listen to this. It's very quick. He says, I am grateful for your work, which has opened the eyes of this humble Protestant. Just about everything I had ever learned about Catholic faith is wrong, and I am overwhelmed by its beauty.

My wife is hostile to the church, and I'm struggling with that. So, if you're listening to me right now, which you are, obviously, would you please offer a prayer for this man and his wife? Powerful to think that somebody could begin listening to Pints with Aquinas, not really be super excited about the Catholic faith, and then not only enjoy the show, but just start supporting me on Patreon. Thank you for doing that. Before we get into today's show, I want to say two things. Number one, if you haven't already, would you please consider reviewing Pints with Aquinas wherever you listen to us? Getting good five-star reviews on iTunes really helps us get the word out about this podcast. So that would be amazing. I know it's

just a few clicks for you, but it means a lot to me. And so thanks if you've already done that. If you haven't done that, please leave us a review on iTunes. Secondly, please follow us on all of our social media. Like we have a whole Instagram account devoted to Pints with Aquinas. It's my name, Matt Fradd. So check that out. You can follow me on Twitter and Facebook. We have a whole Pints with Aquinas Facebook group. And then, you know, finally just maybe share this podcast with some people. I don't have like a big marketing machine that helps people learn about, you know, finally, just maybe share this podcast with some people. I don't have like a big marketing machine that helps people learn about, you know, this podcast. So, I rely on you. Like if you're a fan, like if you enjoy these shows, do me a favor and share it on social media and tell your friends about it.

That'd be sweet. All right. Here's the show. It's so good to chat with you. I was sitting up last night with my bride, and we were looking at some of your YouTube videos, and it was really, really awesome to see the cool stuff that you've been doing. Yeah, it's been so fun.

I really like how my YouTube has kind of transitioned through the years. So I've been having so much fun just like binging, making theology videos. That's awesome. So great to have you on the show. Tell me, since this is the first time we've actually really chatted, and our listeners a bit about yourself. So my name is Lizzie. I grew up in Florida and then I moved to California for college. So I went to Pepperdine University and I majored in philosophy

and religion. So that's kind of where I went down the wrong road if I didn't want to end up becoming Catholic, just because there were a lot of Catholics who I became really close friends with in college. And a lot of them were converting into Catholicism while I was at Pepperdine. So that was kind of the first thing that was kind of a catalyst that made me start to research in. Okay, let's just back up a bit for our listeners who perhaps haven't come across your stuff, although you do have a huge following on YouTube. So you grew up, you weren't Catholic, obviously. Yeah, so I grew up in Churches of Christ, which is from the Stone Campbell movement, the American Restoration movement in like the 1850s. And my parents were actually missionaries in Russia.

So the first few years of my life, I was living there. And then we moved back to the States when I was about four. And my dad is a history professor and my mom works in accounting. So kind of my whole life, our family was super involved in all of our churches. I was teaching Bible classes, leading BBS. We were just, that was the core of my family's social life. And connecting theologically, intellectually is kind of the core and the glue that holds my family together. Mm-hmm.

Wow, that's amazing. So, growing up, what was your take on Catholicism? Did you know Catholics? Had you heard about the Catholic Church? Was it just one denomination among many? So, when we lived in Indiana, there were a lot of Catholics, but I was so young at the time. I was in elementary and middle school, so I never really talked to them or thought about it. My church as a whole believed that Catholics are going to hell. We believed anyone who is not full immersion baptized was going to hell. So that was kind of my first exposure. But a really funny story. So I have a vivid memory of being in first grade and we were

having a discussion at my table and someone was talking about the mother of God. And I was so intense. And I said, that's not in the Bible. Show me where that is in the Bible. And so looking back, I realized that was a Catholic kid in my class. That is so funny. All right. So then when you went to university and you started studying philosophy, were you into your faith like with Church of Christ then? Yes. I was so obsessed.

Christianity was the core of me and my life. I started my YouTube when I was 15 and I was making Christian videos from the beginning. So a lot of your followers, because how many followers do you have now? 200,000. Yeah. So a lot of those followers, are they people who followed you while you were evangelical or Protestant or however you defined yourself? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

I've been there since the beginning. Oh my gosh. Wow. I often think to myself like the moral courage it must take for a person to convert who has some sort of platform like it's it's difficult enough for anybody to just have that paradigm shift having to tell their loved ones but to have so many people following you you've almost got a stake in this right like they could all abandon you and i'm sure you've told this story hundreds of times, but this is the first time I'm kind of hearing it. And it's just, I find it fascinating. What was that like as you were in university and started to become attracted to Catholicism? I feel like I haven't talked about

this that much, kind of my fears with my subscribers, but I did keep it a secret from everyone the whole time I was converting and in RCIA. I announced it a few weeks before I was confirmed. And I kind of hate admitting this, but I kind of wanted to not manipulate, but I wanted to make my subscribers open to Catholicism before announcing that I was going to convert. That makes sense. Soften the blow kind of thing, you know? Soften the landing. Yes.

Because I thought if people heard I was converting, they would automatically not listen anymore. So I had a lot of videos where I was sharing things. And then in parentheses, I would put, as a Protestant. sharing things. And then in parentheses, I would put as a Protestant. So what was some of the first videos that you threw out there to help introduce your Protestant viewers to Catholicism? I made one video, why saved by faith alone, salvation is wrong. I made 10 lies Protestants believe about Catholics. Why Mary is a Perpetual Virgin. I talked about the Catholic views of hell and purgatory, but in a way that was more subtle. I even made a video talking about why all Protestants should be Catholic.

Whoa! This is before you announced that you were Catholic? Like a year before, yeah. This is before you announced that you were Catholic? Like a year before, yeah. So I'm sure you were watching eagerly the comment section to see what your followers were saying. What were they saying? There were a lot of Catholics who thought I would convert, but everyone was fooled. I'm really good at manipulating people. And I mean, my whole job is speaking to people and affecting people's emotions and thinking in depth how I am in my videos.

So I said things in such a way that none of my Protestant viewers would know that I was going to become Catholic. So were a lot of your Protestant viewers listening to you and thinking, well, those Catholics are definitely wrong, but yeah, we should be fair in the way we treat Catholics. Was that sort of how they responded? Yeah, definitely. None of my Protestant viewers thought I was veering towards Catholicism, because I would just be very intense at the beginning of a video and say, I'm not going to be Catholic. I'm not converting in. I'm not in RCIA. And it was true. I didn't start RCIA until like six months after I knew I was going to become Catholic.

So why were your fellows in college or university becoming Catholic? I think everyone, it was for different reasons. I know that one of the professors in our philosophy department is catholic and a catholic convert and so I think some people may have had discussions with him and then there were a few people older than me in the department who were like cradle catholics and so I think there were just some discussions that they were having. But one guy in our department, he studied in BA in Argentina for study abroad, and it's such a Catholic country. And so that kind of changed his thinking and made him research in. And yeah, I think for everyone, it was different. But just seeing other people converting like me, it kind of made them question and want to research in more. And were some of your friends just as intense in their Protestant profession as you were? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This one guy, Chad, who was a senior when I was a freshman, I learned sort of recently that his freshman year at Pepperdine, he was

getting into a debate on his Facebook, that Catholics are not Christians and going to hell publicly on Facebook, debating this. So people even felt stronger than I did about their... And he's one of the guys that ended up converting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So way before I even arrived at Pepperdine, there was already this trend of philosophy majors researching in more. What was it about philosophy in particular that perhaps helped lead you to the church? Maybe that in philosophy, it's emphasized to seek truth and to change your beliefs to correspond with truth. You're constantly questioning things, constantly reading opposing positions, and it's just ingrained into your psyche that you love truth so much,

you want to change, you want to be wrong. And I think that kind of moral formation just makes everyone humble when it comes to our epistemic views. Yeah. I remember I heard you in one of your videos, you brought up a great point by C.S. Lewis, who said that when we were kids, we were saying like, what's that? Tell me about that. Like, why is that? And we wanted to grasp the truth of things. But as we grow older, we just like to philosophize out of boredom or something. We're not even after truth anymore. Yeah. It's like we just enjoy arguing.

We just enjoy reading opposing positions and debating. But I read The Great Divorce while I was considering becoming Catholic. And that just really forced me to think that, yes, growing up, it was so fun creating my own theologies and just coming up with these like absurd views about what heaven is and salvation and who God is. It was so fun to me to personalize my theologies. But didn't Church of Christ have very specific views about? No, no, not at all. Each church is autonomous.

We have no headquarters. So Disciples of Christ, which also came out of the Stone Campbell movement, they have a headquarters. But each Church of Christ is independent. So there's great diversity in beliefs. Wow. Yeah, it is funny to me. I remember I went to a, what are they called? The sort of Baptist church that the girls can't wear pants and there's no drums allowed. I forget what it was, but I remember- We had musical instruments at my church,

but we could wear pants to church. Yeah. Well, y'all were sinners, you see. These were the real Christians. But I remember them saying like, there's no hierarchy here. And I remember being like, oh, okay, but like, who's in charge? And they're like, that guy. So, you can't escape it. Yeah. That's one of the reasons too, I hated Catholicism because it was the opposite of Church of Christ. It's the most hierarchy of any church in the world. So, inherently, I just did not trust it. You do bring up such a good point, though, right? Like, if there is no magisterium, so if we as Christians believe that God has revealed Himself to us, and that we can know things about what He has revealed, that's kind of what the magisterium means, I guess, right? That we can know with certainty what God has revealed. But if we can't, then it just becomes this matter of speculation, you know? Well, what's your view on homosexuality? Or what's

your view on, can you lose your salvation? And yeah, as you say, it's like, I could see people just sort of not intentionally coming up with things that suit them. I don't think anyone would think of it that way. But at the end, like, given human nature, I imagine that is what happens for many people. Yeah, absolutely. I think at the time, I didn't realize that it was so relativistic. I didn't zoom out all the way and see what was happening big picture. But I kind of came to a point after college where I'd interacted with so many Christians at my school from different denominations. And I was even questioning within myself what church I would be part of in the future. where I'd interacted with so many Christians at my school from different denominations. And I was even questioning within myself what church I would be part of in the future.

And I just realized that there were so many. And it just seemed like this joke to believe that you could find one that is true. Because there's thousands. And so just the chance that you could end up figuring out which was true, it was just a relativistic mess. Yeah, I mean, this is probably an overly simplistic way to think of it, but in a sense, it's like either there's a pope or some people end up becoming their own pope, you know? Yeah. And again, I don't want to kind of like caricature anybody i'm sure we have like faithful protestant listeners who are like that is not at all how it works

so i don't mean to do that but i think for some people it is that way you know you just open up scripture and whatever it appears to say is the truth and if someone disagrees with you then you have your reasons as to why they're wrong and And it becomes just this big debate. And then you're like, sometimes I just want to say like, really? Like after 2000 years, do we really not know about the nature of baptism? Like 2000 years and the church still hasn't figured out how you're saved and whether you can lose that salvation.

Like that doesn't seem right. Yeah. I saw a meme the other day and it was talking about how 2000 years after, after Jesus and the apostles, you're finally figuring out the truth about some theology. But I think people, you're just not self-aware that it's happening because you think that it's so obvious what the Bible says, because you've been surrounded by that your whole life. Okay. So what was it like when you finally came out? Like, did you tell your parents that you were becoming Catholic before you announced it on YouTube?

How did that happen? Yes, I told them before, but I told my parents when I was three months into RCIA. So probably like nine or ten months after I knew I would become Catholic. Why didn't you become Orthodox or something? This is something I hear from a lot of converts. You know, they look at Orthodoxy, they'll look at some other sort of Eastern Oriental Church, are they anything but Catholicism? I presume you looked into Orthodoxy too? Yeah, I hear a lot of converts talking about Orthodox versus Catholicism and why they didn't become Orthodox, but I think most of them really didn't fall in love with Orthodox. That was my first reaction.

I was attending Divine Liturgy for three months before I ever went to Mass. And I still – Just so you know, that's where I go. My family, we go to an Eastern Catholic church. We've been there for three years. Oh, my gosh. That's amazing. I was actually there this morning celebrating the divine yeah yeah yeah i love the eastern liturgy so much it's like being in heaven all the ice and incense it's beautiful yeah but

for me it really came down to authority and the pope and so obviously we're like're like brothers and sisters, and there's so much overlap. I've even heard it described as the right and left lung of the church, but ultimately, it comes down to the papacy. So what did you begin reading or viewing or listening to that helped convince you of the church's teaching on papal authority? you of the church's teaching on papal authority? There's a book by Stephen Ray, Upon This Rock. Yeah, I know Steve. That's a great book. A ton of primary documents. And what I love about what he did is he quoted all of these Protestant scholars. That was a majority of the book. So he was just showing what Protestant theologians well came to, like what they even have to admit.

So what did your parents say when you told them you were an RCIA? It was devastating. My dad described it as if I was in a horrible car accident and in the ER and I could die. Oh, gosh. Poor guy. are and I could die. Oh, gosh. Poor guy. I mean, I'm sure it might be easy for our Catholic listeners to be unsympathetic to what your father said, but I would just say to those Catholic listeners, put yourself in Lizzie's dad's shoes. And like, imagine if your child, say, became a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness. I mean, this is sort of how he viewed it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that even if I became Muslim, it would be like Catholicism would be even worse because he just saw it as so far away from the truth of God.

Yeah. And what did you do? Did you decide it was best not to argue about these things? Have you guys opened up a discussion about these things? Do you just not talk about it? I mean, all of the above. I sent them like a 10,000-word email explaining why I was converting. Your first book.

I mean, that turned into my book, definitely. But I wanted to explain intellectually how I got into that point, and I wanted to convert them as well. And so I gave a ton of church father quotes, a ton of Bible verses. I explained everything. And my dad ended up responding to some of it. But I mean, he's in the middle of the semester. He's a professor.

So he didn't have time to respond to every single point. But after that interaction, I mean, it's been kind of waves of how bad it has been. Now I'm on pretty good terms with my parents, but there were times where my dad wouldn't talk to me for a month or two. And I mean, I cried a ton. I even like starved myself a few times because I felt like I needed to punish myself for how much I was hurting them. I'm so sorry that happened. And your dad's a historian, and you were quoting church fathers to him. So what was that like? He specializes in the Cold War and modern history.

So obviously he's super intelligent, so informed on everything going on in the world and in like the 20th century. But that's honestly just not his emphasis. So it's not that I don't respect him intellectually or he's not open to truth. It's just, he hasn't read all of that. So I mean, if he had like hundreds of hours to research it, I think he would, but I just think he doesn't think he would find anything. Yeah. That makes sense, right? It's like's like, you only kind of invest time and energy into something that you think is worthwhile.

Like if somebody came to your door and was talking about Joseph Smith and the Mormon church, and they gave you a huge tome to read, you'd be like, you know what, I'm okay. Like, you know, and I don't need to read this to know that I think you're wrong, or that I'm justified. That's a really good parallel. Ironically, I've spent dozens of hours researching into Mormonism. Have you? Yeah, beautiful. The Mormons are some of the most beautiful people on the planet without question. I wish most Catholics acted the way most Mormons have acted towards me.

They've just been the most beautiful and delightful and, yeah, upstanding people. And they have the highest marriage success rate. They have, like, I think the top three highest attendance rate. Wow. Wow. They're doing something right for sure. Hey, so, okay, so you tell your parents you're an RCIA and then, like, lead us through how you made this announcement on YouTube and the fallout afterwards. Yeah.

So, I told them in November. afterwards? Yeah. So I told them in November and then obviously I told, I told all my friends in the spring and summer of 2017. So my friends were the first people to find out, but I think I gradually started telling subscribers. So people message me and I know so many people personally, cause we just messaged back on back and forth on all my social media. So I started telling a lot of people individually, but I didn't announce in a YouTube video until February or March when I was basically all the way through RCIA. And that video, I put so much planning into how to present it because I wanted enough people to really, really question and stop and want to look in because I love my subscribers so much and I just want them to find what I have found. I have to say, just as a side note, that really comes through. That's one of

the things I noticed while viewing your videos. It's like it's like, you are so authentic and yourself, it's very charming. And I can see why people feel so, um, attracted to you. And so they feel like they're in the same room as you, as you're speaking into a camera, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And in that video, I was very, like within the first minute, I was like, I hate this. I hate that this is happening. I hated this because I really did. And I just wanted everyone to know that it wasn't some spur of the moment emotional thing, but that I didn't want what was happening. And I really, really hope that some of my lifelong, not lifelong, but subscribers who have been here for years, I hope that really rocked their worldview and made them question. What did they say in the comment section? Did you get a sense of how it went over?

It blew up so much in the Catholic world that I honestly didn't even get a read on what was happening. Everything just kind of, yeah, everything kind of went crazy. It was like there was an earthquake on my channel for a few months. And if there's an earthquake, you need to get away from the earthquake and not be within it. Interesting. How so? What do you mean by that? I was on like EWTN posted my story on their Facebook page. And then basically overnight I woke up that night. I remember I was like at my best friend's house. I was at a dinner and my boyfriend texts me, his RCIA director had called him and my boyfriend texts me that I was on EWTN.

And so then from that moment, I start getting emails from all of these Catholic radio stations, podcasts, Catholic writers. And so literally like within overnight, I wake up the next day and I have like dozens and dozens of emails and, you know, people wanted to give me book deals, like all of these things. And it was awful. Like it was just so awful to have this all at once when I never, I never expected anything like that to happen this is completely overwhelming or what else was it like was it kind of a little gross did you feel like

people were trying to take advantage of this moment and kind of like we're gonna sell your books and make money from this or I don't mean to say they have bad intentions but I think that would have been something that went through my head yeah I mean there definitely were situations where I felt used but yeah it was just it was a whirlwind and it was happening so fast that I honestly didn't get to process it as it was going on it was just like I was scheduling all these interviews and phone calls and I think that it wasn't until the summer that I even processed what had happened yeah my goodness gracious. So then what's it like being, I mean, what's it, so yeah,

it sounded like you had been intellectually convinced for a while before you made this announcement, which I think is probably a really smart move, because I could see a lot of people just kind of on the spur of the moment in a fit of enthusiasm making the announcement. And then what do you know, they do a bit more study and they realize actually i'm not that into the catholic church so so i mean what's what's that been like being a catholic in 2018 because obviously there's been all of these scandals that have erupted yeah we've seen we've seen so much despicable behavior on the part of lay people and priests and even bishops. Gee, it's like, come on in, the water's terrible.

Yeah. Yeah. What's that been like for you? I mean, were you tempted to sort of idealize the priesthood, the papacy, the kind of institution of the church, and then all this happened? Or how was that for you? Yeah, it was really hard because just in general my personality kind of idolizes everything I always I have the purest intentions and I see the good in people like I have these so high expectations of everything being amazing and perfect and so I discovered the most beautiful thing but then within a few months it was like everything I loved was turned upside down. And it was so hard being surrounded by all of these lifelong Catholics who wanted to leave. And my subscribers were wanting to leave.

And so a few months after I came out about this, I just got confirmed. I'm a baby Catholic. Yeah, I know all these arguments from the early church, but I'm not informed on anything that has happened with the modern church. I mean, I haven't gotten to the 20th century yet with my research. And so, all at once, I'm expected to be a spokesperson on these issues. And it was just, I wasn't prepared for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally. Totally. Was there a point in which you looked at the whole mess of the church and went, okay, maybe I've just made a mistake here?

No, I'm not emotional with making decisions. So I became Catholic because of the first and second centuries, what was going on at the time. So I don't care what bishops, what the Pope, what priests are doing today. All I care about with the bishops and the Pope is apostolic secession. And if the Pope needs to make an ex-cathedral statement, but anything else, I don't care. Like their purpose. Yeah. There's this old story about a Jew who was entering RCIA and he had to make a business trip to Rome.

You've probably heard it, so forgive me. No, I haven't. Well, the priest who was leading him through RCIA said, look, why don't you just hang off before going on this business trip? Wait till you've been baptized and confirmed and then maybe make the trip. Because my fear is that once you see the scandal and rot in Rome and in the Vatican, you won't want to become Catholic. And he said, well, no, no, I have to go. And so he went off on this two, three-month trip. And when he came back, he said, okay, I'm ready to continue and be baptized.

He said, well, didn't you go to Rome? Didn't you see the corruption? And he said, oh, yeah, but I'm a businessman. I'm very practical. Like he said, oh, yeah, but I'm a businessman. I'm very practical. I know that an institution that didn't have God behind it and was that corrupt would have folded in like two months, let alone 2000 years. Yeah.

I mean, that was actually a huge, huge reason for being able to convert because there were so many heresies in the first and second centuries. I mean, it's overwhelming. It's insanity. How many heresy groups? And that was just such a big deal. heresies in the first and second centuries. I mean, it's overwhelming. It's insanity how many heresy groups. And that was just such a big deal. Like, if any original truth had come out of all of those heresies, it's got to be the Holy Spirit working. Yeah. Yeah, you even think, I mean, we just had the feast day of St. Nicholas recently with the Arian heresy, where my understanding is the majority of the bishops were heretics, essentially siding with Arius. It's very easy to kind of forget, especially people like me, right,

who've been through John Paul II. I came to Christ when I was 2,000. That was my conversion year. And then Benedict. You have this very small view of the Catholic Church, and you forget that there's been scandals and all sorts of junk that's been taking place for 2,000 years. In a way, obviously every event is unique, scandals and all sorts of junk that's been taking place for 2,000 years.

In a way, obviously every event is unique, but in a way it's not unique to have a sort of crisis in the church because there has never been an idyllic period in the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this is minor compared to things that have happened in the past. Well, yeah, awesome. What about Thomas Aquinas? Did you ever find your way into reading him or any of the scholastics? Yeah, absolutely. And with what we were talking about earlier with why all these philosophy majors were converting, that was a huge part of it as well. I think that every single thing you're reading in philosophy goes back

to Christianity and the existence of God and miracles in the soul. Even though like 90% of analytical philosophers are atheists, everything we're reading still has to do with religion and God. And so I think a lot of our classes, like in ethics, we were debating utilitarianism versus virtue ethics. And then in philosophy of mind, we're talking about physicalism, materialism, dualism, all these things. And so that just forces you to question a lot of things that we kind of take for granted that we've inherited from our culture. Yeah. So you spoke to me on the phone the other day a little bit about kind of the moral law and the Catholic view of morality and ethics in general. Did that help convince you of the

Church's claims or was that something you kind of discovered after becoming Catholic? Yeah. I think that seeing the flaws in analytical philosophy, which for like seven years, even from high school, had been like the core, the rock of how I understood philosophy. What do you mean by the eras of analytical philosophy? So, this book by Alastair MacIntyre, which we were talking about earlier after Ruchu, he is an analytical philosopher and a Catholic, but he explains how during the Enlightenment, there were kind of all these myths projected about intellectualism. And we kind of inherited a lot of things from Aquinas and medieval philosophy, but kind of rejected that whole period. And so, I think just everything

going on right now in our education system, where we kind of skip over all of the middle ages and then it's this myth that the enlightenment was when we came back to intellectualism and science and the dark ages just the fact that anything like that is in our culture i had to kind of go big picture and realize that there were major major issues and mcintyre argues that the Enlightenment was a failure, and that there were some positive social things that came out of utilitarianism, but ultimately, virtue ethics is the only consistent moral system. And is that something you saw exemplified in the Catholic Church, whereas perhaps you didn't see it in your Protestant circles?

Like, how did the Catholic church's view of ethics differ from the way you were brought up with the Christians you hung out with? That's interesting. I think that my, maybe it's my personality, maybe it was my environment, but I'm very much kind of like mean, ends, means, I don't know what i'm trying to say the ends justify the means yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's just how i've always gone about doing things and it wasn't until like my sophomore year in college it was my ethics class with my catholic professor there were like six people in the class so we had so many intimate discussions. And there were two Catholics in the class as well. And so I was kind of presenting all these arguments for utilitarianism. And they were just, I mean, there's so many thought experiments, which kind of like there's the railroad thought, there's the railroad thought experiment where you could turn the tracks and kill five people instead of two. And you're in a hospital. And if you kill one person and take all their organs, you can save nine more people. And so just all of these thought experiments that really makes you question what is going on. And so I think ultimately what made me want to leave utilitarianism was because there's no practical way to apply it.

there's no practical way to apply it there's no way to kind of cohesively see big picture what will happen based upon the consequences you want the good the most positive effect for the most people but because we're not omniscient because we don't know the future it's like impossible to apply that yeah yeah that's fascinating and then just this idea to you're coming from aristotle and aquinas the idea that to be happy and to the degree in which we can be happy in this life is going to mean that we be virtuous. Yeah. I don't know, sometimes we have this false sense that it's hell all the way to heaven and heaven all the way to hell, if you know what I mean. And we fail to realize that if we want, it's within our best interest to be virtuous, because if we're not virtuous, we can't be happy. Is that something that, you know, was a revelation to you?

Or is that something you already kind of had thought about and known about as an evangelical? I think that in my religious environment, it was very much like divine command theory type stuff, where we weren't encouraged to think through ethics. It was just kind of like, this is in the Bible, so do this. And there was no, it wasn't, we weren't supposed to question, we weren't supposed to think through things. And so so in my political theory class, my sophomore year of college with a Catholic professor, we discussed Aristotle so intensely. And I mean, this concept of eudaimonia, human flourishing, where that's kind of the end of all humans, that just completely revolutionized the way I saw the world and the way

I saw my life. That it's not about thinking like in the moment, what is the best thing, but big picture, what is like the purpose of our soul and how can we get there? Yeah, I think this is why, even though, you know, there are certain evangelical groups that we absolutely need to learn from, who can teach us a lot about, I mean, this is my opinion, you know, loving sacred scripture, ministering to the poor, things like that. I do think one of the ways there's a sort of poverty in the evangelical world is their view on human sexuality. You know, if you were to pick up a book on just like, say, questions about sex, and as a Christian, like, what can I do? What can't I do? It's so impoverished. It's like they don't have the

wisdom of John Paul II, of Thomas Aquinas, of natural law. The sexual ethics was one of the things that attracted me the most, because based upon if you don't, if you have birth control, if you allow married couples to have birth control, you're basically saying that sex on its own, just for the unity of the relationship, is the purpose for sex. And so I was at a point since college where I was pro-gay marriage because based upon that logic where sex can only be for the unity of the relationship, if you're consistent, then you should allow gay marriage. And I just saw all of my Christian friends who started having sex with their boyfriends and girlfriends. And it was so shocking to me that that was happening. But I realized that the Catholic sexual ethic, where it also has to be for procreation, where it is family, that is what is necessary to convince millennials to save sex for marriage. And I made a video on like back when I was like 20 or 19 or 20 talking about the Bible verses for

homosexuality, the etymology, the culture, how it's not talking about the modern concept of gay marriage, which I still agree with. And the comments on that video really affected me because everyone was just commenting Bible verses out of context. Bible verse, Bible verse, Bible verse. And it made me realize that there's no respect for intellectualism amongst a lot of Protestants. It's just like, this is like, you know what I mean? Like they don't, they don't put it in context. Right. There's no, there's no sort of philosophy undergirding. And it's just, and it's certainly, we're not saying this of all Protestants, but I, you

know, for many, it's almost like if, if there were no verse explicitly denouncing homosexuality, they would say, well, fair game. And even though there are explicit verses, those are now trying to be got around. But it's the same reason when you bring up contraception, well, where's that in the Bible as if it has to be, you know? Yeah. So, way before I even considered Catholicism, I realized that the Catholic Church was the only consistent, sound argument against gay marriage. And that was something that I respected. I couldn't respect any of these Protestant arguments, but the Catholic argument was sound.

So you said you were for so-called same-sex marriage. Is that something you're still for? I had to conform to all Catholic dogma. Look at you, faithful Catholic. That's awesome. Yeah, I just love how you are just like super in and not a hypocrite. You're like this. It's just so humble, right? It's like even if there are things you don't fully understand,

I love that it sounds like you're saying, well, this, I'm just, I accept this. Yeah. And you're certainly, well, this, I'm just, I accept this. Yeah. And you're certainly not doing it unthinkingly. It's very clear that you are intellectually motivated and interested in all these things. Yeah. I question everything. And I think particularly because I had to explain to my parents and in front of my whole

YouTube audience, I needed really strong arguments for everything to prove. I mean, not to just prove to everyone, but to prove to myself that it was true. But something I wanted to say about dogma, I think that as a convert, there's more pressure to accept everyone. Because I had to read at my confirmation, I accept all the Catholic Church's teachings. And so I'm not going to lie when I'm saying that in front of my priest, in front of all my friends and my parish community. And so, it just forces you to really, really think. And if you don't agree to just not be Catholic, I mean, there's thousands of other churches. If you don't agree with Catholicism, then leave and don't be like,

that's honestly my thoughts on a lot of things. Amen. I kind of want to say that to certain bishops and priests right now who will go unnamed, but it's like, you know, if you don't, if you don't buy this, like what Jesus said and stuff, like, you know, you don't have to be a priest. Right. And of course the same thing can be said to certain lay ministers in the church, but yeah. Yeah. So, okay. There's so many options, so... Yeah. Well, let's talk, I want to talk a little bit about hate mail and how you handle that because I, you know, I have a YouTube channel now and it's just kind of getting started. And already I've realized very quickly that comments on YouTube, it's like the lowest form of human discourse. It's gross. Yeah. Some of, you know, some things are very constructive and nice and insightful,

but a lot of it is just harsh and mean and angry. And since you're a veteran in this area, how have you handled this? It's so interesting because I've been thinking about this so much lately. I was on a panel this weekend and I was asked this question and my response was, I don't get hate. It's so weird. I think it's what I was explaining earlier where I kind of have this like beautiful view and always see the best in people and like rose tinted glasses. That's how I see the entire world. And so when people write something that other people will perceive as negative, I don't perceive it as negative. And what I find is that sometimes I'll read a comment

and it'll seem disrespectful or condescending. But once I replied to the person and just answered their question, they're chill and they're calm. Like I got a comment today from a Protestant who is like, should Protestant, should evangelicals blindly trust the church's teachings? And so a lot of people would be like, wow, that person is so angry and disrespectful. But I just answered their question. I just explained how I actually read the Bible a ton before trusting the tradition. And so I think that if you view people charitably, there's less people who actually hate you. That's a really interesting point. I think you're right. I think most of us kind of come at these sort of YouTube comments with our elbows up,

ready to fight, and we almost read the comment cynically, negatively. know honestly this is another good argument against sola scriptura right like because you have the text what else do you need and it's like but you can come at a text and not understand what is being meant or what's being being said and it's so true though right like when someone let's say they are a little kind of aggravated or harsh if you just respond charitably i agree i often find that kind that it kind of shocks them. And then they're like, oh, okay. Thank you so much for, you know, recognizing me as a human being kind of thing. And it's disarming, just like in my personal relationships too. Like if someone's upset, I just am really calm. And like what I say with where like I manipulate people a lot,

I guess some people view manipulate in a negative way and i don't i just know how to affect people's emotions and get them to feel a certain way you're talking about rhetoric right so it's like like syllogisms aren't enough to convince we need sort of tone of voice and and passion and and you're good at that you know yeah so what's what's the future with your YouTube channel, with you yourself? I mean, are you looking at writing books? Or are you just like, no, everybody back off and let me kind of like learn the faith I've just entered? Yeah, I do kind of feel that sometimes where I just want to be more chill.

I've signed a book deal. So I'm editing through it. We signed it a while ago. So that's coming out and the publisher really likes working with me. So I have another manuscript about bipolar disorder. That's like 200 pages. So that we're going to work on that after my conversion book, I started doing some speaking engagements and there's a lot of people reaching out to me and I kind of want to go slow just because even though like I put myself online I do not like attention I don't like being in the spotlight if I'm at a catholic event and everyone's coming up to me I get so stressed out and I just

feel like like I love I love meeting people and taking pictures and like hugging people. But when it's just all at once, I almost feel like there's arrows coming at me. And like, I can't, I don't know who's coming at me. So I, like, I love doing speaking events, but I kind of, I want to go in slower and not go all at once just so I can adjust to it. No, I totally understand that. I mean, as somebody who gives a lot of public talks as well, I think I tend to be more introverted. I,

I burn out quickly when I'm in a group setting chatting with a group of people. And I need to go and be alone. And yeah, that can be overwhelming. I'm sure, you know, it's doubly so for you, given that this is a whole new thing to begin with, and then you've got the kind of crowd. Have you heard of the SEEK conference that's coming up in January? Yeah, several people were going to pay for me to go and I rejected it. I don't want to be there. I thought it would be horrible. Because if I'm not doing something like behind the scenes, then it's going to be horrible and everyone's just going to come up to me. So yeah. Have you had people kind of approach you in public and

tell you that they watch your videos? Yeah, absolutely. That's been happening for years. So I'm really used to that. But I think that like before all of this happened, I might be recognized like at a store, at a restaurant, at my college, like it happens in different places, but with Catholicism now, it's like, if I'm at a Catholic,

it's so many people there who will recognize me. Yeah. Yeah. Bloody Catholics. Yeah. It is actually kind of a small world after all, isn't it? When you join the church,

you look around, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I tell you what, it's When you join the church, you look around, you know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I tell you what, it's just a pleasure to talk to you. I really meant what I said, that you do such a beautiful job on your videos at connecting with your audience. I love how transparent you are, even about, as you alluded to a moment ago, your bipolar. I just thank you for the work that you do and God bless you for your courage. And yeah, praise be to Jesus

Christ that you had the courage to make a decision that could have really affected your quote unquote career. But you chose to be intellectually honest and consistent. That's, that's huge. I wish I pray to God I would have the same courage. So yeah. Yeah.

I mean, God has been with me through everything. And so it's just, it's developed and grown my trust for Him so much. I've been close to God since I was like a little girl, but this is the hardest thing I've ever been through. And just trusting Him and knowing that regardless of what happens, He'll be there. Any church I convert into and anything that happens.

So that's just been my rock through all of this. Glory to Jesus Christ. Hey, tell us and our listeners, how can we learn more about you? How can we follow you online? Yeah, so I'm super active on all my social media. If you look in the video descriptions of every single video, I put all my social media accounts. So my Facebook page is just my first and last name, Lizzie Rizze. And those are also my handles on Instagram and Twitter. And then obviously I have my YouTube channel. And for any younger viewers, I also have a Snapchat. And that's just...

Snap what? What is that? No, I'm just joking. Snapchat? Yeah, I'm just joking. I'm sorry. No, I do know what it is. I just... But I'm like 700 years old and uh so i don't know this is yeah but okay very cool you're on snapchat well that's awesome well i'll throw up links in the show notes and stuff so people can find you but thank you so very much as i as i said to you before we did this interview no doubt you've shared your story 101 times but people like me it's the first time we're hearing it and i find it absolutely riveting so thanks for thanks for

coming on and sharing it with us. Yeah. No, you asked me about a lot of facets of things that I honestly have never talked about. So you're such a good interviewer. And thank you for all that you do. So many people were reaching out to me that I'm going to be on your show. And they were like, I love Matt Fradd. And even this weekend, I was just chatting with different people.

And they're like, I always listen to Matt Frabb whenever I'm driving and in traffic. He's my favorite person. So it's amazing everything you're doing in the Catholic world. Well, thanks. It'd be great to meet up with you one of these days. Maybe we'll catch up at an event we're both speaking at. Who knows? Okay, everyone.

Thank you so much for listening to today's bonus episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you haven't yet subscribed to Pints with Aquinas, maybe you just check in here every Tuesday, do me a favor and subscribe because when we put out bonus episodes like this, you're not going to know that they exist unless you've subscribed. So be sure to do that. Thank you so much for listening week after week. God bless you.

Have a great new year. And seriously, you should be eating healthy. Get out of the laundry. Go on. Oh, wait. Just get out. It's okay. I'm not going to tell anybody. No, I'm not going to take a photo. Just come on. Up you get. All right. Here's some broccoli. I took you in

Too many grains of salt and gin