Pints With Aquinas - Brazilian Jiu-Jietsu & The Spiritual Life w/ Andrew Swafford

Episode Date: September 7, 2021

In this episode, I chat with Andrew Swafford about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and its relation to the spiritual life. We discuss: - The particular challenges of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. - Virtues you can learn from it. - Combat tips. - The morality of UFC and other fighting sports. - And more!   Sign up for my free course on St. Augustine's "Confessions"!   SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/   GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/  This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show.   LINKS Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas   MY BOOKS Get my NEW book "How To Be Happy: Saint Thomas' Secret To A Good Life," out now! Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

I'd like to announce my new book, How to Be Happy, St. Thomas' Secret to a Good Life. Although just about every marketing firm, self-help guru and man on the street has an answer, very few, if any, understand true happiness. It doesn't come from power, pleasure, popularity or possessions. So what is happiness and how do we find it? In How To Be Happy, I rely on the help of St. Thomas Aquinas to show what will and won't bring us happiness in this life. My hope is that by making the thought of Aquinas accessible for today, my new book will be

a helpful guide to a good life. Check the link in the description of this video to get your copy today. Dr. Andrew Swofford, nice to have you back on the show. Hey Matt, so good to be with you. This is awesome, man. Remember last time I had you on the show, I was like, hey, fly into Atlanta, get an Uber, drive an hour north. And then COVID broke like two weeks later, right? Yeah, yeah. It was right before Yeah, yeah, it was right before COVID. Yeah. How have you done during the COVID season? How have things been? Oh, I mean, like a lot of people, but we moved into a new house just this past March and

we had 1883 and a lot of lots of renovations and we, you know, COVID hit right in the middle of that. And so that slowed things down quite a bit. That's about the age of our house here in Steubenville. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. But finding work is really difficult. Everybody's redoing their houses, right? So it's like everybody's at home, you know, and tired of what they're looking at. And so all these workers, I mean, they had, it's like they didn't need our work, right?

They're like, you know, I'll be there in six months. We're like, man, will you please come and show up and do this work? Because I'm incompetent. I can't do it myself. Ah, yeah, terrific. Did you do traveling or just – were you traveling a lot before? I mean, you're a full-time university professor. Yeah, you know, not a little bit, but not too much.

I filmed the Hebrew study in May of 2020 during – so during COVID. We filmed that near Philadelphia. And that was – so I did the Romans one the year before with an audience. And then Hebrews, I had to film that with no audience. So to kind of, you know, look at a camera and try to gin up the energy and get going. Yeah, it was a little bit different. I think it came out okay.

When I went there, though, the hotel, I got on my connecting flight. I was at an airport, I think in Nashville, getting ready to fly into Philly. And I got this text. It's like, your hotel hotel reservation this hotel ain't open So I had to call my people at Ascension like hey, I don't know where I'm gonna stay Yeah, this thing's crazy right now. So it was kind of fly by the seat of your pants and but you know It's like everybody else. I mean we You know, I mean with the students college students have been kicked in

Well March of 2020 that spring they went home at some at halfway through the semester like i think most colleges did and went online and you know they just they missed their friends they missed the sacraments um the next fall fall of 2020 we were in person the whole time at benedict and uh everything was was also taped so i had a handful of students quarantined at one time or another uh but we made it we made it and we had some some threats from the county to like shut us down and this and that and so we were kind of I mean I designed all my syllabi thinking we might shut this down and go home but we we made it and then the last spring of 2020 I'm sorry spring of 2021 I was on sabbatical so I kind of checked out and was hoping hoping praying that I have taught my last class with a

mask on. So keep my fingers crossed. But hopefully that remains true. Spring of 2021. So last spring, yeah. Like just a few months ago. Right, right. So I haven't taught since the last previous fall a year ago.

So it was like three or four months off for your sabbatical? Well, I didn't teach any classes in the spring semester. What did you do during that time? So I had some writing projects for Ascension. And I gave a paper at the Ave Maria conference in February on the Messianic banquet theme as background for the Eucharist back in February. So, yeah, just kind of working on some things.

And so those, hopefully, you know, they're not out yet. Next summer, a couple things should come out. What's one of the most interesting insights you've learned recently in your Bible research and study and teaching? Well, I've been really into the Messianic banquet stuff for this reason. It's so common to think of, you know, we're like, oh, the Jews, they just wanted a military messiah. They just wanted a political kingdom. And many people wanted just that. Like, there's no doubt.

But there's also another strain that you see in various – you can see it in the Old Testament that basically looks at Sinai as sort of the template in that they're hoping for a new exodus. A new exodus. And the first exodus from Egypt to Sinai, and really ultimately to Jerusalem Earthly Temple. But on Sinai, you know, where you have the covenant sacrifice and the word of God proclaimed in Exodus 24, verse 7 and 8,

and then you have a communion meal with Moses and the elders on top of Sinai in Exodus 24, verse 11. And basically, up top of Sinai is like going to heaven itself, God's presence. And so this communion meal, I mean, the Exodus doesn't terminate in political liberation. It terminates in worship, in liturgy, in the whole tabernacle complex. And so the prophets look back at this in this hope for a new Exodus, and they see this messianic banquet motif that what happened on the top of Sinai, this banquet meal in the very presence of God, this is sort of the prototype of what God

was in the fullness of time when in the messianic age, I mean, like Isaiah 25 or 6 through 8, you see this in Zechariah, and then you see this in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, 2 Baruch, some in 1 Enoch, where there's this hope that there'll be this Messianic banquet marked by an abundance of wine that overcomes sin and death. And you're like, oh, my gosh, this is the Eucharist. And so you think about these things, and I mean, you'd blab on forever, but like, so when Jesus heals the centurion servants. Can you just pull this out a little

bit so it's directly in front of your mouth there. Okay, so when Jesus. Or just twist it towards your mouth. Okay, when Jesus heals the centurion servant in St. Matthew and then in Matthew 8, 11, 12 he says, you know, basically, I have not

found such faith in Israel. He prays the centurion and he said, they'll, basically, I have not found such faith in Israel. He prays the sanctuary. He said, people will come from east and west. And that's not just geography. This is more of that. And they'll come and sit at table. So there's the banquet motif. With Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So not just from all places, but from all times. And those who reject this will be the weeping and gnashing teeth. So this is clearly an eschatological banquet that's gathering the deceased, right? So in other words, what I like to say to students is, it's not just that Jesus is mimicking, obviously, like these Jewish expectations. How does he tap into them and transcend them? When we know these expectations, how do Jesus' words kind of resound all the more? So the Messianic Banker motif was pretty exciting. It was fun to present that. It was received pretty well. We had people like, well, like Waldstein was there. He's here now. Michael Waldstein,

Gregory of All. So I had some theologians and Bible scholars in the audience. Yeah, what's that like, giving a paper at an academic conference like that? How do you get feedback? And are you get feedback? And are you nervous as you stand there before your peers? Oh, you're definitely nervous because there's, I mean, it's a very healthy, beautiful thing. But, you know, I mean, the academy, like anything else, can invite the egos in us all, right? So the lights are bright, the lights are on. And, you know, the questions are afterward, right?

And so, with all the respect i was there too especially those graduate students read it's like the question oh the question is preceded by like a massive comment it's like well how does this resonate with the third uh recension uh the german edition you know page 47 footnote 95 it's like this ain't a question brother yeah uh so but it wasn't it wasn't like that it was it great. But, you know, I mean, because... You good, Joe? Yeah. So it's fun.

It's good. Yeah, do I get nervous? Of course. Totally. I mean, you're there with your... I had some of my colleagues with me in the audience, too, and you want to perform in front of them. What's the difference?

Because you do a lot of public lectures as well, like you've been doing here at the Franciscans Defending the Faith. Yeah. What's the difference as you prepare for? Yeah. So, I mean, ideally the public lectures are rooted in serious academic work, right? Because you never want to make bad arguments for good things, right? So you want to know that you have kind of turned over every stone, or at least as many as you can.

There's a technicality that shows up in an academic conference. So you typically read a paper because the argument is too dense to kind of give it extemporaneously. And for better or for worse, you know, good theology is one of my dear friends, Father Ketch and Cuddy, he's a Dominican priest. He's like, look, there's no truth about God that shouldn't move you. There's no truth about God that shouldn't move you. There's no truth about God that shouldn't move you. The theology really should shape and form not just the head, but the head and the heart.

And it's, you know, cliche to say, but in the academy, especially when you're just tied in, you know, with minutia and abstruse things, arcane things, and it can be easy to get caught up in those details and maybe miss the whole point of why you went into theology in the first place. And so I think doing the public lectures, I think it's good to have a hand in both because you come back to the people, details and maybe missed the whole point of why you went into theology in the first place. And so I think doing the public lectures, I think it's good to have a hand in both because you come back to the people, you realize, this is why I got into this. And I want to give you academic solid teaching. But theology is also about conversion.

It's about God, who God is, and what he's doing. It's not about my own ego, CV, publications. And I mean, I wish it weren't the case, but academics are not immune to this. And I felt these pressures more at other times in my life because especially when you're early on, like you're trying to establish yourself. Yeah, you cut your teeth. But any other career has this, right?

Yeah, and then do you have like mentors or something who would kind of help you along with this and say, here's how not to let ego get in the way. Here is the way to kind of keep Christ central. Yeah, that's a good question. So I'm pretty blessed at Benedictine. There's, I think, 10 of us in theology. These are great, great friends.

And then there's about seven or eight in philosophy. And so there's a lot of feedback back and forth. And I will even say, and this probably is just my own perspective, but things seem to have even change since i've been there so long i'm about to start my 15th year um when you first come at least when i first came you're insecure and there's a lot of you feel like there's a lot of one-upping like what have you read what have you published what did you know etc etc what language do you know um but then after everybody gets settled in and again i think i was probably imposing this on my experience there

because you know i was the new guy. And everybody kind of knows, look, we all do what we do really well. We're supporting each other. There's no need to compete. And then you have some of your more veteran colleagues say, look, just do what you can. Do what you need to do. But keep first things first. Your wife, your kids, kids your family and even your

students right I mean remember why you went into this in the first place yeah do you think yeah it makes sense you would lose a lot if you were just kind of busy yourself in books get another doctorate give academic papers and then not actually break it down to people who are trying to walk the walk yeah well and in I mean it, this is my experience. Not to diminish that work. No, absolutely, but it's easier in a sense to sit in a graduate seminar where you can assume

a whole bunch of lingo than to go teach some beginners. Like it takes the master. That's what Lewis is, right? I was just reading Lewis the other day. You look at these great, yeah, I mean, it takes the master to be able to unpack this for someone who isn't assuming a whole set of jargon and the like. And for me, my scholarship someone who isn't assuming a whole set of jargon and the

like. And for me, my scholarship has really things that have grown up out of, especially since the dissertation, out of my classroom experience. I mean, so it's hard for me to get too excited about something that doesn't have at least some payoff for my students or some payoff in the public square for conversion. There's people doing great work, but I've resisted the kind of rabbit trail approach. And for me, getting into Wojtyla's life has been hugely influential in that Wojtyla, JP2, first read academic, but clearly subordinated his entire academic enterprise to the promulgation of the gospel. And I've tried to use that as kind of a model for me.

Yeah, and you said you were teaching your students like the life of Wojtyla and said that they were, through that, appreciating his theology, philosophy? So that's one of the talks that I'm giving here at the Defending the Faith Conference. So here we are in Steubenville, Ohio, with, you know, so good to be with you all and so many other people. About five years ago or so, I started teaching a class on JP2, and I always loved JP2, always admired him from afar, but really dove into his bio. And what I found with students, and, you know and I've done this a couple times at Benedictine,

and we have a study abroad program in Florence, Italy. And spring of 2018, I taught on JP2 in Florence. And so there we were, 48 of our students from Benedictine, my whole family. So I had four kids at the time. I mean, every meal. What a gift. Oh, my gosh. I mean, it formed them, but it also formed us, formed me. And what I found over and over again with this generation

with JP2 is they think highly of him because their mentor spoke highly of him, but they don't know the man. They don't know the human story. And when you dive into the human story, ideas like TOB or even like a book, Love and Responsibility, which I usually read with them, when they read that on the heels of his ministry to college students, they're like, whoa, this isn't just ideas. This is a dude who went kayaking, who went camping, who hung out with them. They could ask him anything. And this is the fruit of that.

And so the group of young people, beginning of when J.P.T.U. was first stationed in Krakow, it was at St. Florian's in 1949. This was the beginning of his college outreach. He's 29 years old, so he was born in 1920. And this group that emerges, and we're in the heart of communism in Poland. Communism, it's been a great way to teach them about communism because it's not just an economic system.

This was a systematic promulgation of atheism. This was a redefinition of sexuality of the family. This was a redefinition of the past, the present, and an attempt to be the arbiter of the future. And he took these students where they really couldn't trust anybody. They couldn't trust their peers, who's an informer. And they finally, for the first time,

could enter into real Christian and Catholic fellowship and friendship and actually acknowledge their faith. And he had to take them out and he formed this community. And they called themselves eventually środowisko, which means environment, or he liked milieu milieu and it was sort of like a zone of freedom in the midst of communist Poland where they could really enter this kind of deep friendship and and he these people he saw them get married so they have kids got some other kids many circumstances he got to know

their grandkids and so this became so from 53 to 78 until they became Pope they went every year on a two-week kayaking trip in August and so when when I presented this to our students, in fact, we were coming back from Subiaco, and I said, and they're about to have a reading on short of East go in this kind of communist situation. I said, I want you to look for this word short of East go. And my prayer is that this time in Florence will be our short of East go. And they just latched onto they even made t-shirts by the end like it's it's a long story but we actually are running a house to college students and this started after we came back this is part of the move and they call it the short of East go house because it's not the whole purpose is an

apostolate to build up Catholic culture campus right to have a place to go where you can have fun the joy of the gospel, but we gather. I mean, what virtuous friendship is, it's not just running at each other. It's about something. It's running towards each. Absolutely. With someone towards something. Exactly. Precisely.

And they had a, and these are great students, but that semester, man, there was conversions happening, conversions deepening. It was like, who wants to go all in? Who wants to be a Jedi for Jesus? Who wants to, I mean, we got great students great students but it's you know things are different than back in the day and it's like it's easier to kind of do a little bit of a poser thing maybe you say a rosary maybe you go to mass a couple times a week sure but the human formation might be lacking with chastity and drunkenness and i don't mean

just to fall i mean kind of like you know not seeing it as a problem and so we had a lot of students like i want to go all in. And then it gets exciting. So cool, isn't it? Do you have many students like that who come into your theology or theology you teach, right? Theology class, scripture class, and you can tell they're not really buying this stuff? Is anyone kind of antagonistic towards the faith or is it more just a sort of apathy? So, I mean, so Benedictine, where I actually went as a student,

we have, you know, especially with athletics. I mean, if I get a student from New Jersey or Oregon, we have students from 49 states, so I think everything but Maine right now. They're either there to play football or for the faith, right? So there's definitely a room to evangelize and to be kind of in the world, not out of the world, even though we have a number of just incredible, amazing students. So, yeah, that definitely happens. And there's also maybe another category where you have students who maybe had a conversion.

Maybe they went to a student book conference in high school. Maybe they're even there to do theology or evangelization. But the culture is seeping in everywhere, right? So occasionally, you know, even those students will have struggles and negative influences and the like. And I think this is where Voitier has been so big for me is, but, you know, this is kind of related

to the kind of academic minutiae question, especially for those students. And really, I think it's true for all of us. You know, if you get in too far into the weeds and the minutiae and they and you can't answer those so what's the point question yeah what's the upshot what does this matter when you can't answer that it's like it sterilizes um what's happening whereas voitiwa is kind of an anchor um like they see the point and they're willing to read hard things. I mean, L&R, 11,000,000 is not an easy text.

I mean, Witness to Hope, not an easy text. Like they plow through those things because they see that this matters. And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes they get pushback, sometimes this and that. It depends on the class. But I think harnessing why we're doing theology helps a lot, if that makes sense or not. Because if they can't see the point, they can't see the upshot, it's hard for all of us to be motivated.

Yeah, for sure. So what have you been doing outside the classroom other than working on your new house? Yeah, well, that and our new family jam is jiu-jitsu. So it's so like Brazilian BJJ. I mean, we started back, oh, my gosh, back in March, about six months. So I got a colleague in philosophy, Jim Badden. He's your, what's his name?

Pat Flynn. He's on the Pat Flynn Show quite a bit. Your listeners might know him there. But about six years ago, he started it with his kids. And he's a great, great, great guy. And I've watched what's happened to his kids and he's been talking about for years you know and um his oldest who's now a marine so start when he's like 13 uh i said well has he gotten more confident and he's like you know he's become more confident and more cautious i'm like what do you

mean he's like well now you know by the look of a guy i mean he might be trained like you don't want to know yeah you don't know. Yeah, you don't know. And I'm like that humble confidence, like that won me over initially. So initially it was like self-defense for my older boys. Right, so they're 15 and 14 now. And, but then I'm like, man, I want to learn this art. This is because the whole, and people are like,

some people are like, what's Jiu Jitsu? And I'm like, look, just think UFC, but no punching. Right, or think wrestling with less rules, right? With joint locks and choke holds and stuff like that. And the whole deal is like the smaller, less athletic guy can win based on position and leverage and when i first started man dudes 20 years older than me were just whipping me around because and they weren't 20 years older and as big as you i presume or were they i mean it's all over i got some yeah probably not but i mean like it's amazing what just like the know-how the knowledge

because you're a big guy that That's my point. Yeah. I mean, there's some big dudes there that still whip me. And I'm at the beginning stages. But I know. And I told you before we came, I did my first jiu-jitsu class last Thursday. So it was crazy. Just this morning we were texting. What should we talk about?

Yeah, I know. So we had our first tournament a couple weeks ago. Did you? Me and the two older boys. Tell me what that was like. Well, I was nervous as heck. But I mean, so now like my six-year-old son and my 10-year-old daughter. So now we have five of us in.

Only my wife left. But at first she's like, what are we doing here? What are you doing? But she's been won over by just the transformation. And so, yeah, so my second son, he took second place in his division. This is like a local tournament in Topeka, Kansas. So we had to drive an hour to get there, but... It's difficult to get kids to learn

those different holds and locks. Is that what they're doing at five or are they more just sort of... Well, the six-year-old is a little bit more just kind of getting them started. But my 10-year-old daughter and the two older boys, like they're learning everything. And I'll say this, my 15 or 14-year-old,

I mean, if I go like 80%, like they're more technically sound than I am. If I go 80%, they can submit me. No way. Yeah, I promise you. And it's like, I'm like, this is awesome, right? So, but yeah, my one son took second, and then my other son won one, lost one. And I only had three guys in my bracket.

So I was in the 30 to 39-year-old bracket, white belt, you know, weight, right? So, you know, when you have local tournaments, there's often not that many people. And by some miracle, I actually beat them both. The first dude should have beat me. He was throwing me around. And I just kind of kept my balance and ended up on top. And the second guy, I submitted, though, with a key lock. And I was like, I'm cloud nine.

Now, I'll probably get my tail whipped the next time. So I'm at the beginning stages. But I know just enough to know there's a galaxy out here that I don't know about. And I want to know this art. As I said, I've only gone once. I plan on bringing my kids next week. So I know just enough to know there's a galaxy out here that I don't know about, and I want to know this art. As I said, I've only gone once. I plan on bringing my kids next week, so I know nothing. Oh, I literally looked up a YouTube video last week,

like what do I need to know before I go? And the number one thing they said, what do you think it is? As soon as I say it, you'll be like, absolutely. Calm down, don't panic. Hygiene. Because, dude, I had a guy's sweaty face pressed against mine. It was like aggressive cuddling. And you have to like shower, brush your teeth, you know, make sure.

Honestly, because you are right up in each other's grill. Dude, it knocks the like dualism out of you. I mean, it's like I have a body. It's cool. But think about this. Like we are so. So my colleague, Jim Madden, he does a lot with philosophy of mind. And he's, you know, all the neurology and anatomism and he records on this.

And so he's like, look, I mean, for most of our historical existence, like, you know, you're there and I'm here. We have this, like, separation. He's like, look, in jiu-jitsu, it's like, your partner's got a cold, you get a cold. I mean, like, you know, it's like we're so afraid of the body and getting closer in this time of covert yeah or you know dudes rolling like this like oh is this is a sexual like no it ain't sexual we're trying to learn how to kill each other right I mean like and that like you know it's so cool so I mean

almost like it brings back it kind of balances out that weird view we have of is this sexual it's like it kind of shows you in a real tangible way that it's not that of course you know i mean i had a dude just last thursday his butt was pressed against my chest his face was pressing my head into the mat got me into an arm lock this repeatedly got to know him really well but that's the point i don't know if it's like where you are but it's like a team sense yeah people are real cool and it And it's not nearly as macho as you think. No. It's sort of like.

I was really nervous, I have to say. Because Les Nevsky was going to go with me. But then he bailed because he had a busy couple of weeks. Yeah. So I went on my own. I was really scared. I'm like, I'm just like, I'm out of shape. I'm not strong.

I hope this isn't one of these. But as you say, people were really cool. And you know what? It's probably because humility. Because no matter how good you are right someone's kicked your butt before and can do it again so they may not look like they could on the street but you probably could in real life but but but just because their skill you know and there's a humility there too like you said because because i asked my buddy i'm like okay like okay i'm you know i'm near i'm gonna be 40 soon right so um how old are you now uh 39 i'll be 40 in december

yeah so so so maybe my next year my bracket will get better because it's 40 to 40 but i'm like you know i'm asking about like injuries and stuff like this like look the way you get hurt in jiu-jitsu typically is you don't have the humility to tap when you need to so like it's like if you're beat just tap right and it's like it's that easy and he told me stories about his um like his sons are really good like they compete um like he's got a 15 year old uh who's who he's he's like six three but he competes as an adult adult blue belt and uh stories of you know sometimes you'll get macho guys come to the gym and and this has been a while but um i guess this 20 this is when uh oh no this is the other son who's now like 17.

When he was 15, was rolling with his 25-year-old, and the dude was just like getting beat and like couldn't take it. And his son just – he's like, if you're not going to tap, I'm going to hold this choke. And the dude passed out. And our – you know, our technically terms professor for jiu-jitsu, which is beautiful. You like that? He calls – you know, he's like, don't call me that-jitsu, which is beautiful. You like that?

He calls, you know, he's like, don't call me that. Call me coach. But he's like, that's all you can do. Because if you don't have the humility to tap and just say I've been beat, then this is what happens. And, you know, I don't mean to talk to you about this, but like I would trade. I worshipped at the altar of sports all my life.

I would go back now and I would trade all my years of football to start jiu-jitsu as like a 10-year-old. And why? Well, I mean, sports are great. at the altar sports all my life i would go back now and i would trade all my years of football to start jiu jitsu as like a 10 year old because and why well i mean sports are great they can teach character i'm still a fan absolutely and my kids still play them um but it's like you know like in football we use all these like military metaphors it's like dude this is a game this ain't like a real war right this is a game and it like, you want to know how to throw a ball or be able to kill someone if you need to? And God forbid, you hope it never happens,

but it's like, what really matters in training the man or the woman, right, for self-defense? But isn't there, I mean, there's obviously, I think it seems like there's virtues in football that you wouldn't learn from jujitsu. It's not a team sport in jujitsu so much. I'm not denying that, that's true. But I just think there is a,

there's such a vanity and chasing the glory in our culture. Take Benedictine, for example. I love the football players. I was there, right? But when you get a student who's like a cross-country runner, track runner, kind of a non-glory sport. I see. Especially in Kansas, too. I'm sure college football

in Kansas is everything. No? You know, I mean, it's a, I mean, probably yes and no. I mean, like everywhere else, sports is like king. I used to live in Texas.

College football in Texas is massive. Well, I mean, I grew up in Ohio, but Texas, California, Florida, typically Ohio, Pennsylvania, some of those are up there from high school football. But yes and no on a smaller level. Now, the football team at Benedictine, you get guys from all over the country

who weren't quite good enough to play big time. So, I mean, it's better than you would think. But I guess my point is, so you're right. There's a team dynamic. There's things, there's virtues you learn in other sports. But you personally would go back and well so I've got

I've had long discussions with my brother-in-law for example because he's like why aren't you know I learned so much from football I'm like I get it

I get it but the lessons you're talking about I don't think that you could not have learned them on a farm a hundred years ago you see what I'm saying

like so I get that sports can teach you that lesson for some you that lesson. For some kids that might be the best approach. But if you grew up in a bigger family and you're like serving, I mean here's where I was, and I think a lot of people are like this.

I had intense work ethic when the lights were on. Right, I could go all day with the mirror right there and with the kind of the varsity, you know Friday night lights glory and trying to play college ball. But I didn't have serious work ethic when nobody was watching to, like, do household chores or to rake the leaves or, like, that old school farm ethic that has the discipline to do things when the lights aren't on. I'm not sure that in the American context sports teach you that. Maybe some do.

And maybe something like cross country does more so. But the whole varsity blues culture, I remember when that movie came out in high school, it's like, ah, that's what I want to be, right? I mean, like, I don't know. So, you know, I don't mean to overdo it, oversell it. Sure, sure. And we homeschool, too, so this is going to give them something to compete in. And it's also something that you can take with you forever, right?

So, like, I mean, I hope to do this until I can't do it anymore. And there's no – again, one more thing. Like, in the high school sports, you play club ball earlier on, you miss a practice, it's like the end of the world. But jujitsu doesn't have a season. You've got to be committed

to the program, to the team, if you're going to get better and you're going to help your partners get better. But you miss a practice, it'll be here when you get back. You know what I mean? It's demanding, but yeah.

I like that because when I had my kids in soccer, the idea of, okay, you get to practice twice a week, and they're only like eight years old or something, you know? So I do like that where it's like, hey, we've got something more important on tonight or our family just wants to be together as a family tonight. But as you say, it's like on every day of the week, basically. Yeah, I mean, so I just think that there's something balanced about that. I'm not sure what I think of the week, basically. Yeah, I mean, so I just think that there's something balanced about that. I'm not sure what I think of the morality of UFC.

And here's an argument I've heard. I want to run it by you. Yeah. And it's something like we shouldn't physically harm somebody unless we have a good reason. Entertainment isn't a good reason. And UFC is all about that um so so that that would be an argument from the perspective of those engaged in the fight but then also when cock

fighting and bear baiting were criminalized it wasn't what was the first one you said cock uh cock fighting where you have roosters rip each other apart you know that wasn't just for concern for the animals it was also because of the belief that watching this sport vulgarized people and that makes sense to me like if you're like oh dude i love cockfighting and we went and you showed me some back alley cockfighting thing i'd think less of you as a person i think i'd be right to think less of you and i think that think that UFC is sort of like human cockfighting. And so while there's a part of me that would, I love watching it. Like I don't watch it, but if I did, I'm sure I'd enjoy it. I'd probably enjoy boxing even more. And I can

see why people get into the art of it and submitting. That stuff makes sense to me. But what we know about the sport and the long lasting injuries that result from it, how can we continue to justify it as a sport to watch and enjoy? But what we know about the sport and the long-lasting injuries that result from it, how can we continue to justify it as a sport to watch and enjoy? Well, I totally get it. And I probably, and I don't know if this is my new bias or not, I would have been there, I think, even a year ago. I think on the one hand, you could raise the same question about football, right? The CTE, the head injury stuff, but also not just football.

I mean, hockey. There's lots of sports you can concussion. And I don't know the data on UFC in terms of – becoming a fan is relatively new to me, but I have become a fan. People on the inside, so they offer MMA classes at our gym as well. And like our, our coach, he, he had 54 pro MMA fights and, and, and, you know, not like UFC level, but think like, think like the minor leagues of, of that kind of stuff that he competed as a pro fighter. The art of it is real. It's not just a slugfest. It's not just, it's the same thing with boxing,

the art of it is real. It's not just a slugfest. It's not just, it's the same thing with boxing, right? So my interest in it really is this. I want to see how jujitsu works if someone's trying to punch me. You know, how does this really work in a real fight? Does that make sense?

So yeah, no, I mean, it's not, and I think it's probably UFC is on like the edge. Like you go past this edge and you've gone past civilization, right? So I'm with you on the concern. And jujitsu is sort of like one level down, right? So it's like, it's not the punching, but it's the joint locks, it's the choke holds,

it's the like, you know, if I didn't stop when you tapped, like you would break an arm or die. So I get it, I totally understand from the outside. I think because there really is, like these fighters that you're seeing, they're not just like grunts. They're just're just you know you could do without maybe some of the showmanship and some of the you know i mean you know and but i again this is still pretty new but i i respect it i appreciate it uh i've even watched some of it with my my older boys because

because i want them to see okay you know being on the bottom might be great in jiu-jitsu in like guard position for the, things like that. How does that change if someone's trying to punch you? So to kind of get them to see that. Now my one son is like, I wanna do MMA as soon as I turn 18, so he wants to take, he's got a few screws loose. But I think it would be good for my sons,

and I'd like to do it when I get more advanced, to just take a few MMA classes. I don't see myself ever competing there, but just to kind of have that experience of what is this like? And this is going to sound crazy, but I've been saying this for a few years that when my 16 year old, well, he's 15 for the last few years, I've been saying, you know, when you turn 16, we're going to have a boxing match, headgear, you know, like safe. But like, I want you to have the experience of taking a punch. And I want you to have the experience of having taken my best.

And it's sort of like the, you know, all cultures have always had this like male right of like becoming a man, the before and the after, you know. And my wife still thinks I'm crazy. And, you know, but we're still planning on going through with this. Again, not to like hurt each other. Right. And this is not against his will. You you know like i'm going to punch you right he wants it just and he's going to get me at my youngest right so my my young guy my two-year-old

is going to give me a different version of me but i just think that his what will happen to him internally so it's sort of like i'm blabbing on i'm not giving you an answer but the whole toxic masculinity right i mean like right today and this is this is terrible people might yell at me for this but like I mean some in years past it wasn't the worst thing in the world for that 12 year old to get in a fight at recess right because one like you have that experience uh you're not that you're picking on someone but like you know just stand up to the bully what have you but like now one on the one hand oh toxic masculinity get that guy out of here or some dude might pull a gun yeah do you know what i mean and so doing jiu-jitsu or even ufc or

it's an outlet for some of that stuff that is still in a relatively controlled environment that's still relatively speaking should not end in in death or serious injury i get that you know but i think anytime you go into contact sports, you're going to take a risk. But what does it do internally to the young boy or the young girl? I mean, my daughter Kate, so Jim, my friend, I mean, his daughter is like 17. She's a blue belt.

It's like the confidence that she has now after doing this for like seven years, like that's a pretty cool thing. And you can still be feminine and do it but it's like you know it's a crazy world out there too so i think self-defense especially for the ladies it's it's not a bad thing so that's my two cents is that i think ufc serves that purpose of like what is this how powerful is this art in a real combat environment and back i mean back there for me it would be like can i take this guy like am i bigger stronger it's like no no am i skilled enough to believe in my skills and not just in my brute strength because someone's I mean back there for me it would be like, can I take this guy? Like am I bigger, stronger? It's like no, no.

Am I skilled enough to believe in my skills and not just in my brute strength? Because someone's always gonna be bigger than you. And what do you know about how Brazilian jiu-jitsu kind of rose to prominence here in the States? So I mean just a little bit, but the Gracies, there's a bunch of Gracies, so I don't know the first name of, but like-

I just know by the way that everyone in the comment section is gonna be like, I thought like matt was doing like these joe rogan style interviews and now he's actually just doing joe rogan so whoops but keep going that's exactly right so like in the 90s when ufc to my knowledge was first emerging and that's back when it was like a pay-per-view thing and i remember in high school and checking some of that out and there's this guy named gracie who was submitting and like triangle chokes, these bigger striker guys. And it was like, oh my gosh,

the dude who's not even thrown a punch is winning these matches. And I think that's where it like really, the US took notes like what the heck just happened? I mean, this dude is like smaller, 180 pounds and he's beating all these guys. And I think that's, and there's a bunch of Gracie's that have, like I think in California and whatnot,

that that's where it's really emerged. I've heard people say, and I don't know nearly enough about this to take an opinion, but that the American context too, so it came from Brazil, but American wrestling has kind of helped or has kind of cross-fertilized with jujitsu and some would even say developed kind of an Americanized kind of cross-fertilized with jiu-jitsu. And some would even say developed kind of an Americanized version of jiu-jitsu.

I don't know how much that's right or not. But I know our coach, for example, is a college wrestler and then in college got into jiu-jitsu, MMA, and kind of got going back to like 2000, right around there. And so that kind of was the beginning of his moving in this direction. I just think people, I mean, the whole idea is that the weaker, less athletic guy or gal can win by position and leverage. The reason it's such an art is, I mean, if you do the right move, like one of our coaches will say, look, if you have to strain,

it's not the right move. The right move at the right time should be unbeatable so it's like a chess match where you're thinking two or three steps ahead and it's not it's just not a grunt macho thing it's like do you have the skills that'll be with you the rest of your life that's why i love it so much that's awesome do your kids do other sports or is yeah so um i mean they've they've done um so baseball soccer basketball um and then but as my older ones have have aged out i mean there's a Yeah, so they've done baseball, soccer, basketball. But as my older ones have aged out, there's a point where they'll be freshmen in high school next year.

They're 14 months apart. We homeschool them in the same grade. At least in Kansas, you have to take five classes that can be at the high school. And so we're just going to keep homeschooling. In Atchison, there's like 180 kids homeschooled that are like 15, 16. So it's almost like a co-op. It's almost like another school, right? So because of them aging out of some of the, you know,

jiu-jitsu is really all they're doing now. My younger kids are still playing soccer and still playing baseball, softball. To your point earlier, I wonder if this has something to do with it. You know, when you play soccer, you train once or twice a week maybe, and then you have this match where everybody or twice a week maybe and then you have this match where everybody stands around kind of screaming and watching you but like in jujitsu almost every time you go it's training and then you work up for a tournament but that's not like you're doing a tournament every week right and and you don't have like you know

mass unless you're maybe a gracie like massive crowds you know i i think i just so i get you don't have you don't have, you don't have inherently the team dynamic because you're by yourself. I do think there is a team dynamic because, you know, like at the gym, there's people from all different levels, you know, brown belt, I mean, sensei's black belt,

blue, purple, white, and they remember what it was like to be a white belt and they like sincerely want to help you. So there's a team dynamic, but it's not the same. But I just think that the humility and the, and also, but also the confidence though so like okay so you play on a team you win a championship yeah you're excited but like you own that a little bit but like you step onto the mat and you win a match or you you

know i like our coach like says like it's not winning losing it's winning and learning um but like you did that nobody else did it for you it wasn't like a lucky call from the ref like that's right you did that. And again, I'm at the very beginning. I won two matches. The first guy should have totally beat me. But like, there was something like, wow. Did you get beat at all in this tournament?

I didn't get beat, no. I mean, like I said, three guys in our bracket. But the second guy though, I did submit. And that was, it was like, I'm actually doing jujitsu. Right, it's not just like a, cause you know, there's a little bit with white, they say with white belts, it's like, errr, you know, it's, they don't have the skill to really do it.

But doing an actual move that I learned and executing, it's like, wow, this stuff really, really works. Have you asked your professor, your instructor, if you could go against him? What would happen if you did? Oh, he would destroy me. Oh my gosh. No, he would, lots of those guys would destroy me.

And do, I mean, on a regular basis. But even they've said like, dude, you've gotten so much better just because you, you know, you just, it's up here. It's not like you're like, like my buddy, for example, that I'm talking about, he competed as a power lifter in grad school, PhD at Purdue. And he's since lost a ton of weight. He's like, he hasn't, he hasn't touched a free weight in two years. He's like, I'd rather get better at jujitsu. And he's like, well, do you want to train so you can look like you can win in a fight?

Or do you want to actually be able to win in a fight? I love it. Both? Yeah, but he's just like, forget the vanity of it all. And even if some guys will show up for a little bit like, I'm not in good enough shape. That's me. That's totally me. We're always like, hey, dude, you're not going to get in jiu-jitsu shape by running on a treadmill.

It's almost like the spiritual life. It's's like don't perfect yourself and then come to the lord it's like no no just stick it out submit yourself to the discipline submit yourself to the way and then submit on the mat well but like that's i mean it's sort of like man that's the wrong it just you will it will get you in shape that's a great and this is really good advice for those who are watching right because you do think that's like, once I get my stuff together, then I can do that as opposed to just coming as you are. And there's no substitute for rolling. I mean, like, you can run all you want, but, like, rolling on the mat. It's so true.

Is the only way you get in shape to roll on the mat. Like, I used to do CrossFit, and it would destroy me. And destroyed me quicker than it did most people in the same box as me. But there is something about wrestling with someone because you are just high alert and like five minutes of rolling, as you put it, yeah, that's like more exhausting than running a few miles. It is.

Maybe not. The transition, no, it totally is. But what the transition, I've already started to experience a little bit is knowing how and when to exert your energy in jiu-jitsu. Because jiu-jitsu can be a slower game. And the white belt's like, the whole time,

and he's gassed in two minutes. And you see these seasoned guys, and they're in a bad position. The heart slows down. They're just waiting for you to make a mistake, holding their energy, and then boom. And all of a sudden,

you're like, what just happened? And you're tapping out. So the seasoned guys know how to use their energy. So this is really good. There's a lot of analogies here to the spiritual life. How would you analogize that to the spiritual life? You know, I mean, people are going to say I'm crazy.

But I mean, what's the first principle of a natural law? Do good. Do no evil. Do good. Do good and avoid evil, right? And jiu-jitsu is all about, it's a self-defense thing. It's all about using the leverage of your opponent against them. I mean, it's all about, think about the cross. Like cross like here's this great evil and i will turn it on its head

and make it the greatest good or happy fault and maybe i'm crazy but i see jujitsu as comporting with a sacramental worldview in that sense and that like it's not about violence for violence sake it's about disarming and disabling my opponent not even throwing a punch not putting myself in a bad position not breaking my hand but i'll take your evil and i'll turn it around and i will hold you in a position that you'll either will break your will and you'll give up and leave us alone or you know i mean so it's it's um again i'm not a violent guy it's not like the macho thing but it's i i do think there's something beautiful about the art that is like effortless when it's done by the masters that is

the opposite of kind of just like a grunt macho i'm gonna i'm gonna hit you in the head fast yeah yeah and even what you said earlier there about the white belt being kind of hyper vigilant and the older man having kind of that prudence knowing how to hold back knowing when to strike i was just thinking too you know there's something like that in the Christian life when somebody first comes to Christ and there's that passion and enthusiasm, which is great to see. And maybe they just run a million miles ahead and but the first time they hit a wall or the prayer dries up, maybe they give up as opposed to kind of taking into account our human nature. And I don't know. I think you're exactly oh i think my conversion like i was so filled with the holy spirit and i needed i mean i needed always but i needed it to overcome

certain sins i mean that that that the lord wooed me in such a powerful way it's like he picked me up and threw me over the wall like i look back and i think about like free will and grace and i'm like that experience like i chose it i chose the. I chose to remove myself from a bad relationship with a girlfriend. But I literally don't think I could have done otherwise. It was so inexorable. And I look back and I'm like, I absolutely needed that. And there'll be times in life where we'll need that consolation. But that honeymoon stage, as we all know, it doesn't last forever and and even in

marriage and we've been married my wife Sarah 16 years now there's a it's sort of like an athlete's second wind right so that there's the emotional highs there's the honeymoon stage yeah and because I think some people present this as but then if you're gonna make it it's gonna be an act of the will and just kind of I'm gonna be faithful even though I hate it it's like no marriage that's not what marriage is. But there is a sense in which the initial feelings, the initial emotional, spiritual life or marriage will subside and that will grow our love all the more because we're going

to, because the danger early on is you're seeking the Lord or your spouse for your own sake because of how you make me feel. But as the love matures, becomes more firmly rooted in the act of the will, there's kind of a second wind of the emotions that go deeper. And Wojtyla actually talks about this in Love and Possibility, that the emotional connection becomes more sober, less idealized. I mean, when you fall in love with the ideal, is that even the real person? But as the love matures, you become not just by your will,

but even emotionally attached to not the idealized version of the person, but the real person, virtues and flaws and all. And there's a real kind of double backing on the will and the emotion where I would even say, especially in marriage, but I think even with the Lord, it's good if the will is firmly committed to cultivate that emotional connection. And it's almost an act of the will to connect with my wife, and even with the Lord. So I think the emotional highs can go up and down throughout our life. That's Ignatian, right, the constellation of desolation.

But, yeah, there's a difference between enthusiasm and real sustained commitment, real sustained fidelity. But it doesn't mean you leave the emotions behind. You can still cultivate them. I remember just finding it really embarrassing when I first realized how much of my concern for my bride had more to do with me than her. Because you're kind of blind to that in the beginning. You just see this person who looks like Eden, like the garden. You're like, you're gorgeous.

I will sell everything for you. And so I did. I moved to America. Sold everything. Yeah, exactly. And so I did. I moved to America, sold everything. Yeah, exactly.

But it is a very humbling experience as you begin to journey through marriage and you realize how much of that, especially when the tough times come, because that's when you realize this is when the rubber hits the road, as it were. This is where do I love you for your sake or do I love you for my sake? And I would say everybody, except maybe St. Joseph, realizes that at least part of it, maybe a great deal of it, is I loved you for my sake because I loved what you gave me. Absolutely. And I guess it's during that time that marriages get tough for people.

I mean, in marriage, I've told students, look, marriage is when your spouse will see what's your worst and love you through it and love you through it. Tongue-in-cheek, to say it another way, is in marriage you take the novitiate after the vows. But it's a beautiful thing, though, but that vulnerability

that, you know, I've been able to put my best foot forward for so long. I can do the dog and pony show from seven to 12. But now it's like,

you see all of me. The good, the bad, and the ugly. But that's what makes it so beautiful. And like, I'm sure you'd say the same thing.

I wouldn't trade for a second when we have 16 years in to go back to dating could you imagine no i i it gets richer every year so there's a deepening i i religious have said the same thing to me i mean on the one hand the honeymoon phase does subside but when you stay the course and you do it right and you're committed to loving jesus in your spouse i mean that's the only source of unconditional because the people you love the most they're gonna hurt you if you're gonna love i'm gonna love j Jesus in your spouse, I mean, that's the only source of unconditional love, because the people you love the most, they're going to hurt you. If you're going to love, I'm going to love Jesus in my spouse. Not perfect, but this is how, this is the only way it works. What happens over time is there's an even deeper, in my opinion, emotional connection. Like, it's not choose the will, or this is Voight-Thieu, right? It's not the will or the emotions,

the will or sexual pleasure. It's, look, if you root this in a firm act of the will, the experience of love, psychologically, emotionally, and even sexually, will be not suppressed but enhanced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful, dude. Beautiful. What are you speaking on today? You and I are both speaking at today's conference.

Yeah, yeah. So the applied biblical studies a couple days ago I did on the Messianic banquet stuff that we were talking about earlier. And then today I've got one on the letter to the Hebrews. That's right. And then one on John Paul II kind of looking at trying to replicate that experience with the students for them, kind of how his bio can teach us about kind of passing on Catholic culture. And where can people pick up your stuff?

Actually, when we did that interview, Hebrews was just coming out, I think. Yeah. Well, I don't think it was. I hadn't filmed it yet. Okay. Yeah, because it was in March. Maybe it was just Romans you gave to me. Yeah, well, I don't think it was. I hadn't filmed it yet. Oh, okay. Yeah, because it was in March. Maybe it was just Romans you gave to me. Yeah, Romans was the previous fall.

So where do people get all this great stuff? So Ascension Press has got the Hebrews study, so it's a DVD study. Or you can do it digitally. It's cheaper digitally and a book that goes with it. Same thing with Romans, same format, book and DVD study or digitally. Great Adventure Bible, I was part of putting that together. People know about that, especially Father Mike's podcast, man. I mean, it's so beautiful.

Yeah, yeah. How's that doing? I know it was like number one in the app store for a while or the podcasts. I mean, I don't know for sure, but I'm sure it's not there anymore. I mean, I think it's still pretty high. It's such a gift. Talk about perseverance. Oh, my gosh.

If I did something like that, I'm going to do Bible every, you know know i would have lasted like two months and then would have went look i hope you understand i can't keep doing this but i mean the fact this dude's no i mean for for sure i mean he uh and he's such a way such a way of not just like reading the word but but applying it and and just constantly something every time he talks it's like something new that you you didn't see before like wow that's a powerful application um and they just came out the paperback time he talks, it's like something new that you didn't see before. You're like, wow, that's a powerful application. And they just came out with a paperback version of that. It's coming out like this August, I guess. And then a couple projects for Ascension.

Yeah, a paperback of what? You mean the Ascension Bible? The Ascension Bible, yeah. It'll be a lot cheaper. And then a couple of projects for Ascension that I mentioned. One entails a, so my wife's part of this as well,

and Marcellino D'Ambrosio. We're going to be filming, leaving for Rome, literally like in maybe a week and a half or something like that. So we'll be filming this whole thing on site in Rome. So pray for that. We're real excited about that.

Awesome, man. Yeah, so that all should come out next summer. One of our sponsors here is hello oh yeah yeah and i got to talk about them but i want to talk about them have you heard of the app oh absolutely and uh a guy that i'm pretty good friends with nathan crankfield uh is now working for them and i think he's friends with some of the guys that found it i don't know the details at all but uh well i i just recommend people check it out i mean it's a very sophisticated app the guy who started i had him on the on the show recently, and he was kind of getting into kind of Buddhist meditation and

new age things. And he was very blessed, or at least at the time he thought he was, by that Headspace is one of the apps, Calm. But these lead into kind of new age ways of thinking or are themselves kind of new agey. So he started Halo. And I've been promoting them for like two years now, three years. That's how I heard of him was for your promotion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, dude, I swear to you, after this interview with him, I downloaded Headspace just to see what it was like.

I wasn't going to dabble too far into it, you know, but I couldn't believe. I would say his app is better, definitely better. And it's just – I don't know why that impresses me so much, but when you have this like Catholic entrepreneur who's trying to do something good and he creates something better than the best. It has the secular skill set is top notch. And that's what we need. It's unreal. It's sort of like the old school, like Jesus knockoff movie. It's like, okay, if you're going to do it, do it right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife, Sarah just recorded something. I forget

some psalms, a series of psalms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sleep stories. Totally cool. That's awesome. To those who are watching, there's a link in the description below. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Hello.

H-A-L-L-O-W dot com slash Matt Fradd. And you can sign up on their website and get it for a month free. You can also download the app and you'll get some things free but not all of it. So that's what you want to do on the website at hello.com slash Matt Fradd. But even now, they have Jonathan Rumi who plays as Jesus in The Chosen. He's reading through, I think, all of the Gospels in 30 days. And so you would listen to it. Listen to his gorgeous...

Hello and welcome to Hallow's 30-Day Gospel Challenge. How good is he? I'm Jonathan Rumi. He's so good. That's so good. Have you and your family gotten into Chosen? Yeah, actually. My youngest son likes it a lot.

I can't say. I actually haven't kept up with the second season. I've been meaning to go back and watch it from the get-go. Because my family called me down into the basement back when we lived in Atlanta. There's this new Jesus movie on. I thought, oh. You're right. All right.

I was offended that my wife would even play it. Because I'm like, we shouldn't be playing crap art to our kids, you know? Even if it is Jesus. Let's just read the Bible to them. Let's not subject them. And I could not believe how impressed I was. And how good Jonathan Rumi does. Oh, my gosh.

He's so good. And I went in, like you said, with low expectations. Because like, okay, what's this going to be? But our family got it. We've seen it both seasons. And the kids loved it. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I think it's been really well done. I mean, some of the characters, like Nicodemus' character. I mean, so many things you could say. But obviously, there's going to be artistic license. Yes. But I'm glad. Either don't have any artistic license and just stick directly to the words of Scripture, or just go for it.

I think it's cool. But the vast majority of what you see could have happened. Now, let me ask you this. As a biblical scholar, are there things that you see that you cringe at? I mean— You don't want to be overly critical, but— No, no, no. There's maybe like one or two spots where I'm like, hmm.

But honestly, like, I'm not going to—just like when I listen to homilies, I'm not going to be like theologian idiot. He's going to like—it's like, no, I'm a beggar. Technically. No, no, no. I want the crumbs at the floor. Right. So, so, so I try to like really restrain that kind of stuff. But, you know, like, so I think it was, and I'm not good.

I need to rewatch them to kind of have a pinpoint everything. But the, the scene with the Samaritan woman, which is beautiful. But the line about when, when Jesus, Jonathan Rumi is like you know we're getting rid of all that liturgical we're just going to worship in spirit which obviously is true

but there's a there's a wee bit of you know I mean and I think Dallas Jenkins has done a fabulous job of and I've heard that he's got like a Catholic priest

evangelical and a Jewish consultant and I think that that has really shown up in spades but that might be one little time where i was like there's a little bit of the evangelicalism coming through in terms of maybe an anti-liturgical sentiment but like that's so minor compared to what i the portrayal of mary i think has been beautiful i mean um so yeah i am thoroughly pleased and happily watching this with my family and um it's been powerful.

Yeah, to those who are watching, because I had Jonathan Rumi on the show, I think you can download the app, The Chosen, and watch it for free from that. Is that how you watch it? Or also, VidAngel. Okay, so we, my son, my oldest is really good, like far more technically advanced than I am.

He'll set the phone up, connect it to the TV, and so we can watch it on the big screen via the phone. So I think via the app. Sweet. I think that's what's happened. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks for dropping by. Thanks for being awesome.

Matt, it's just good to hang out with you, brother. And it's good to just, I mean, watch your ministry thrive from afar, your family, Cameron, all your kids. I mean, just honored to be your friend and honored to be with you, man. God bless you, brother. Sweet.

Thank you. That's it, dude. Thanks a lot. Just honored to be your friend and honored to be with you, man. God bless you, brother. Sweet. Thank you. That's it, dude. Thanks a lot. Kanskje vi kan ta en kål på en kål? សូវាប់បានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបាូវាប់ពីបានប់ពីបានប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពី ༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱� សូវាប់ពីបានប់ពីបានប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពី Bye.