Pints With Aquinas - Can Atheists Be Saved? w/ Fr. Gregory Pine

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

Fr. Pine talks about whether an atheist can be saved and what the different types of unbelief are.  🟣 Join Us on Locals (before we get banned on YT): https://mattfradd.locals.com/ 📖 Fr. Pine's Book: https://bit.ly/3lEsP8F ✝️ Show Sponsor: https://hallow.com/mattfradd 🖥️ Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ 🟢 Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas 👕 Merch: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com 🚫 FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ 🔵 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd We get a small kick back from affiliate links.

Hello, my name is Fr. Gregory Pine and I'm a Dominican friar of the province of St. Joseph and this is Pines with Aquinas. In this episode we're going to talk about whether atheists can be saved. Sometimes you hear people say things like, well, they can't be held responsible or they're certainly not culpable or their ignorance is invincible and it seems like all you have to do to make it into heaven is not know enough, which is crazy. So let's get after it. All right.

So as is our custom in these videos, we want to receive the principles and then rehearse the arguments. So that way we can think well about the issues ourselves. And when you're talking about faith discourse or theology, those principles are just what God reveals. So Christian revelation, because we believe that God speaks and that he makes us capable of receiving that revelation. So, revelation seems to admit the possibility of damnation. You can consult the sacred scriptures, the church's tradition, and both speak to this possibility.

The scriptures, often in parables like Divis and Lazarusus one makes his way to the bosom of Abraham the other to a place of terrible suffering and there's an untraversable chasm between them or you can think about yeah like the mention of Gehenna it's better that you pluck your eye out and cast it from you or cut off your hand and cast it from you and that you make your way towards heaven maimed as it were or dismembered rather than be cast bodily into Gehenna so the stakes are high. Or you can think about the scriptures mention of the wailing and grinding of teeth which awaits those who are cast out from whatever setting. So like the man who shows up at the wedding without the garment he's been pulled in from

the highways and byways but he hasn't made himself as were, well disposed or well prepared for the wedding banquet. Or you can think about the parables that come at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, like the five prudent virgins and then the five, as the Greek says, moronic virgins, and having to go buy their oil and come back to the wedding feast, they're locked outside. Okay, so maybe the clearest one would be the parable of the sheep and the goats who are divided on the basis of their visiting mercy upon those poor and lonely and lost and whatever. However, they're described there in that particular passage and Christ identifies with those who are in prison and stand

in need of visits or those who are sick and stand in need of healing or okay so those who attended to Christ in his distressing disguises merit heaven and those who did not merit hell. This point is clarified by the church's tradition and her doctrinal pronouncements. Oftentimes it comes into the conversation regarding predestination which the church revisits at a variety of points. Second Council orange council of curacy council of valence Certainly in the council of Trent and you'll hear it said that if you go to heaven It's by God's predestinating grace if you go to hell it's by your choice against that grace So we're free the Lord has placed our life in our hands

God desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We read in 1st Timothy 2, 4, But the possibility of failure of defection remains because we can choose. So that's the church's revelation, but then we think of that revelation or we process that revelation in our own cultural setting. And there are cultural moments when this revelation seems less tolerable to certain thinkers whether Christian or otherwise and I think it's a good yeah it's just a good reflection that we can have here is a like what what am I reasoning upon when I think about this issue because we should be reasoning upon revelation rather than just reasoning upon our intuitions or our experience which have a certain validity but I would say a relative validity because yeah sometimes you hear people introduce their experience into the conversation as if it were infallible when we know that is not

the case. So you'll hear some 20th century thinkers almost explain hell away. Now I'm not going to do justice to his theory but certainly Carl Rahner in his theory of like fundamental option he'll teach that like I can affirm my belief and my love of God, even while doing things contrary to that faith and charity, because it's like more basic. It's more fundamental, but it becomes kind of strange and dichotomized. And then I'll talk about like anonymous Christianity where one can pertain to the church by a kind of, um, unschemitized or unreflected, I don't know, belonging when it's just not clear that that is the case or that that coheres with the truth of the matter. And certainly the way

that his theory was applied, it led to, yeah, just lack of fervor when it came to the proclamation of the gospel and lack of making use of those means which God appoints for our salvation like the sacrament of confession. So I think just as an initial point, we're agnostic about the particular fate of individuals. Like we don't assign people to hell with certainty, unless you're Dante, but even then we hope for the salvation of those who have gone before us in death and we commend them to the mercy of God But we also don't entertain magical thinking just because it would make us feel better Okay, so then all right, let's get into it and think through some of these distinctions some of these further distinctions So that way we can yeah, we can advance in the discourse

So when we talk about an atheist, you know There are a variety of things that this particular there are a variety of things that this particular word or a variety of people that this particular word might kind of capture. So you have non-theists, which are people who don't really engage with the question. It's almost as if they're innocent of theistic claims. So it's not like a tried and found wanting or did and subsequently rejected. It's just like a non-engagement, which I think we see more and more of. And then you have agnostics who engage the question, but without a resolution. OK, so it's like, yeah, all right.

But then genuinely doubt, which is to say they're caught between two opposing positions, not inclining to one or the other. And then you have the atheist, who I would say in the strict sense is the person who engages the question of religious belief and rejects the religious option. So this third one is the most problematic because it represents a kind of intellectual or volitional obstacle to belief. And I would also add, just by way of addendum, that there are practical versions of each of these. So these would be like speculative stances, what I just described, but then there are practical versions of them? Like some people just live as if, without ever even thinking about this particular question.

Okay, so then what would it mean then for an atheist to be saved? Well, what does salvation mean? Because that's what it means to be saved, is to profit from, to enjoy salvation. So salvation is by, I mean it's the protagonist of salvation is Christ. So if one is saved, one is saved by Christ in his church through faith and charity, which would be like those interior principles which apply Christ's grace through the church and sacraments to our lives. So it's always going to be Christ's, it's always going to be the church's, it's always going to be the sacraments which are moving and operating in our lives if salvation is to be the churches, it's always going to be the sacraments which are moving and operating in our lives if salvation is to be applied.

We can also have confidence that God gives enough. God gives each a grace sufficient for salvation. That doesn't mean that everyone is necessarily saved. It means that he affords a grace sufficient to salvation. And God strings his graces together so that often when we enjoy a particular grace or profit from a particular grace, there are other graces that so that often when we you know, enjoy a particular grace or profit from a particular grace There are other graces that will come in its wake not in that we've made those graces to be Efficacious in our life, but God shows himself generous

It seems in a kind of pattern with what st. Augustine will call preventant graces consequent graces, but kind of like a grace daisy chain So God is giving enough and he's giving us grace through a variety of different means, right? We can even speak about the natural laws giving a kind of grace like the way that St. Paul describes it in Romans 1 and 2. You have to be careful there so don't take that out of context just read those first two chapters and then we can think about the grace mediated by the old covenant and then by the new covenant and you'll have, you know, Christian authors expanding upon what St. Paul says in his letters that, you know, if, if it's, you know, the only way by which a person could come to knowledge of God, we believe that God would send kind of appoint special missions to persons who like live way far off from Christian civilization and wouldn't encounter the Gospel message otherwise, like ministering angels. So God's going to make himself known and he's going to make himself lovable to all persons of all times.

It might be more difficult for some and more easy for others. The point is not for it to be fair. The point is for it to be available and for us to incline to it. And I want to emphasize the point that if we are saved, it's not just saved by being quote-unquote good people who don't kill anybody, as you hear sometimes kind of said, those who make kind of weak use of the sacrament of confession and just say like, I'm basically fine, I'm just here for you to tell me that I'm basically fine. It's like, no, we have to we have to grapple with our sins, our vicesices so as to heal and grow beyond them. And another point is if you were saved, we're not saved by ignorance. I mentioned this at the beginning of the video. It's not sufficient to say like,

well, I didn't know enough, right? I wasn't responsible. I wasn't culpable. I have invincible ignorance. You are not saved by nothing. You are saved by something. Now there might be reasons for you to be less responsible, less culpable, and for your ignorance perhaps to be invincible, but that doesn't mean that you're saved by your ignorance. It's always better to inform yourself, it's always better to grow your mind and heart on the way to God. So then what is required, or what is asked? St. Thomas focuses especially on this verse from Hebrews, chapter 11, specifically verse six. And he says, and without faith, this is the author of the letter to the Hebrews and without faith, it is impossible to please him. Him is God for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists. And that he rewards those who seek him.

So St. Thomas kind of schematizes this that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him, he associates that with the existence of God and the providence of God. And then he maps that onto the two most basic revelations or two most basic beliefs, as it were, or articles of Christian faith, which are the Triune God and the Incarnate Lord. So it's obviously super important to know the Triune God and the Incarnate Lord because this is the by whom and the for whom of revelation and grace. This is the God from whom and the God unto whom we are called by revelation and grace. And so that's just what we mean by salvation. So you need to know from whom and for whom in order to actually participate consciously in this saving event. So St. Thomas will say, you know, before the coming of Christ, the great ones had, you know, those who were saved

had an explicit knowledge. The lesser ones, they had an implicit knowledge and in the current dispensation were required or were expected to have an explicit knowledge of the triune God and of the incarnate Lord There might be certain circumstances in which you might imagine an implicit knowledge would be sufficient But basically we're called to know and we're called to love and we're called to be drawn into this trauma of salvation so In this time when the proclamation of the gospel has advanced to the point that it has advanced to, I think there's a real responsibility because more people are capable of having explicit knowledge of the triune God and the incarnate Lord

which St. Thomas will say kind of sums up the Creed. He'll sometimes say the Creed is divided into 14 articles or 12 articles but he says you can kind of group them all together or class them under these two headings. And so this is this is the faith, this is the substance of the faith, is to know God and the Christ whom he has sent for our salvation. And an atheist, you know, the third one that I described above, who was chosen against, who has consciously cut himself off from, is posing obstacles, right? Posing impediments to this encounter with God. God's going to always be trying to break through.

So, Reginald Gary Goulagrange says that at every moment, you know, of every day, God is offering even to the most hardened of sinners, at least the grace sufficient to pray, which doesn't mean the grace of justification, but it means a grace, a kind of actual grace with which to begin or upon which to build. And so an atheist who is cutting himself off actively from this, is cutting himself off from salvation. All that just seems like the straight read of the situation. So we can't just hamper our efforts by a kind of wishful thinking which says, well maybe it'll come by some other means. It might come by some other means. But maybe we're those means.

We might in fact be those means. Not because God needs us, God could do it by any way he saw fit to do. But because God wants us to be implicated in the drama of salvation for our good, for his glory, and our salvation, and the salvation of those to whom we are sent. So I don't think we can indulge a kind of wishful thinking, alright, to, I don't know, quiet our anxieties or smooth over our otherwise troubled minds. God's mercy is powerful. It is indeed powerful. And we commend all persons to the mercy of God. But part of commending all persons to the mercy of God means to ourselves be protagonists in that commendation. So it means a real evangelical acting, which means proclaiming the gospel, which means praying, and which means whilst commending, also mediating the mercy of God to those whom were sent. So can an atheist be saved? Yes, but by your proclamation of the gospel and by your mediation of his mercy, which is to say the mercy of God.

But on its own terms, yeah, we just don't know enough to pronounce further. So that's what I wanted to say. I hope that you have profited from it. Um, please do subscribe to the channel. This is Pines with Aquinas. So click subscribe, push the bell, get sweet updates when other things come out. Also check out God's Planting. Uh, we had an episode called Extra Ecclesiae Omnilis Salus, which is about this particular issue.

And you might find that helpful or fruitful for kind of growing in your knowledge of the issue. Uh, but that's a podcast that I contribute to with four of the Dominican friars. We also have some retreats this summer and fall, which you're most welcome to cordially invited. So check out details for that at godsblending.org. Another cool event that's coming up, and maybe I'll just make this my last announcement, is the Dominican Rosary Pilgrimage, which is taking place on September 30th in Washington, D.C. at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the

Immaculate Conception. It's just going to be like a big awesome Rosary-a-thon Preterama. So I'm giving a couple talks and some other Dominicans whom you know are also giving some talks. So you'll meet people there from God's Planting and the Thomistic Institute and other things besides, and it's going to be awesome. So check that out at the website. Just Google Dominican Rosary Pilgrimage. Okay, none of my prayers for you, please pray for me and I'll look forward to chatting with you next time on Pines with Aquinas.