Pints With Aquinas - Cardinal George Pell on the Synod of Synodality

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

Matt and Thursday have a discussion on the Synod on Synodality and Cdl. Pell's article on it published posthumously. Join Us on Locals (before we get banned on YT): https://mattfradd.locals.com/ References: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/t... https://www.synod.va/content/dam/syno... --- 📚 My new book!: https://amzn.to/3FXQDuj 🔴 LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ 🔴 SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas We get a small kick back from affiliate links.

All right, we're live. Welcome to Pines with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. Today we pray for the repose of the soul, not only of Pope Benedict, but more recently, Cardinal George Pell, who was an amazing Australian Cardinal who was falsely accused to have committed sexual abuse. He was even imprisoned for it. I had the great privilege of speaking in Australia,

my home country, a couple of years ago, and I got to stand outside of his prison cell and pray for him there. Earlier than that, it was either at World Youth Day in Rome or Canada, I forget which one, my bishop, Bishop Eugene Hurley, introduced me to Cardinal Pell on an airplane. I remember, first of all, realizing just what a tall man he was. He used to play Aussie rules football,

so he was a big guy. He was constantly under attack by the Australian media, our NPR types in Australia, whatever that translates to in Australia, were always going after him. The reason people were so angry with him is that he believed and held to, taught unambiguously what the Catholic Church teaches and will never change, right, on human sexuality. They hated him, absolutely hated the guy. But this is why the young people especially loved him because he was just like a clear light. Today, among other things, I want to read something. This came out from The Spectator. This, if I'm not mistaken, is his final article

that he ever wrote. This comes from The Spectator. Feel free to throw this up. Shortly before he died on Tuesday, Cardinal George Pell wrote the following article for The Spectator in which he denounced the vat. Real quick, just move the window over to the right a little bit. Sure. Like that. Yeah, that's good.

Right there. Oh, it's fine. What about that? Is that good? Just leave it. It's something terrible. I can figure. But the specter in which he denounced the Vatican's plans for its forthcoming Senate of Synodality as a toxic nightmare. So we want to get to that in a minute. But I want to kind of sayodality as a toxic nightmare. So we wanna get to that in a minute,

but I wanna kinda say something before we get to this. You know, I just had a episode the other day in which we talked about schismatics, we talked about set of a contests and things like this. And so it might seem surprising now that I'm going to read an article from Cardinal George Pell calling the church to kind of amend the way in

which it's say, listening or proclaiming the truth. One thing I'm seeing in the church today, which bothers me is this knee-jerk reaction. So you've got a lot of YouTube channels out there that are continually criticizing Pope Francis and the bishops. And I think people have their fill of that. They get tired of that, and then they want to say, no, no, no, Pope Francis is a great Pope, he's a saint, he's the best, all of the Germans are, the German bishops, all the bishops are perfect. We don't need to do that. That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. I think you can hold, I think you could think, I'm not publicly making this statement, but I think you could say that Pope Francis, you wouldn't trust him to catechize your children. I think you could say that and also acknowledge him as the true pope.

So I don't think we want to fall into either side. We don't want to fall into apostasy. We don't want to fall into schism, obviously, God save us from those things. But we also don't want to fall into the trap of saying that the church is beyond criticism, that the pope, that the bishops, that the priests, that ourselves, beyond criticism. Certainly the Pope wouldn't think that. Surely he'd be the first to say, I'm open to criticism. I think if you asked the bishops officially, they would say the same thing. Canon Law seems to say this. They're constantly, within the last few years, constantly ragging against clericalism. So they surely, I mean, I want to take them at their word and think that they would like

us to speak out. Yeah, with as much charity as we're able. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologiae talked about how we can indeed criticize our bishops. And let's, first of all, for those who are like, what is synodality anyway? So here's an article on CNA from Ed Condon. He says this, the term is often used to describe the process of fraternal collaboration and discernment that bodies like the synod were created to express but some critics have suggested that the term is vaguely defined and this is why

like people don't know what it is when you ask them. They think it has something to do with listening but they're not sure and that I think is illustrative of the fact that it is vaguely defined and can be used in a move toward a more democratic or parliamentary way of governing the church and teaching doctrine. Before we see what Pope Francis had to say, any thoughts on that? No, I think that what you and I were just saying before we went live is that that sounds great if we weren't in a time where it's clear that we need to do more teaching than listening. Yeah. I think this is Ralph Martin, Dr. Ralph Martin's opinion on the Second Vatican Council. He says Second

Vatican Council, fantastic, beautiful, documents are wonderful, needed, whatever ambiguities were within the text have been clarified. His critique is of the spirit of Vatican II. If by that you mean, well, we just need to run around listening to heretics and listening to people who oppose church teaching. Surely that is true. We do need to listen to people, even those who disagree with the church. It's not as if they are not coming from anywhere of goodwill. Many are, many aren't, but that we have to instruct, we have to be instructed, especially in a day and age like this where we don't know what the church teaches.

And guess what? Hell exists and it's eternal and it's possible. Then it's an act of charity for the church at some point to cease its listening and start its commanding, start its rebuking. And this is what makes me really sympathetic to where the trads are at. I mean, we criticize, people criticize the mad trads. I think, and you and I were just speaking about this, there's a legitimate reason trads are mad.

And I think this is one of them. Yeah, I think what we just, you know, just, I mean, like we keep, you and I think this is one of them. Yeah I think what we just you know just I mean like we keep you and I keep saying we were just saying so we we talked about this to make sure that we were very clear with what we were saying because we didn't want to say anything too far one way or the other we wanted to be clear and what we kind of settled on was saying that we don't think that that like we don't want to say and accuse the hierarchy of falling short of the spiritual works of mercy but that we are sympathetic and understand those who perceive it in that manner

and don't want to tell them that they are Somehow insane or accuse them of being ridiculous. We don't want to gaslight people from either side Yeah, and so what we want to say is We don't want to have slight people from either side. Yeah. And so what we want to say is Very clearly we understand if you have perceived it in that way that they are falling short of the spiritual work of murky of mercy Of rebuking the sinner. Yeah, and and in case you're thinking to yourself, we have no right to bring our issues and concerns to our bishops if you that, then you're at odds with Pope Francis. Pope Francis, it says on the CNA article, launched the Synod of Synodality in October 2021

as a worldwide undertaking during which Catholics were encouraged to submit feedback to their local dioceses. Are we doing that? Yeah. Pope Francis is the bishop of the dioiocese of what the vat of Rome of Rome. So he is open to receiving feedback and We have a prince of the church who's gone to his eternal reward who has offered his feedback And that's what we want to read through today Yeah and and if you if you feel one way or the other about the Senate on synodality, it sounds like the the Holy Pontiff is asking you to

some submit feedback to your bishop. So here it is, baby. The Catholic and this is from the late Cardinal George Cardinal Pell, the Catholic Synod of Bishops is now busy constructing what they think of as God's dream of synodality. Unfortunately, this divine dream is developed into a toxic nightmare. Despite the bishops professed good intentions, they have produced a 45 page booklet which represents its account of the discussions of the first stage of listening and discernment

held in many parts of the world. And it is one of the most incoherent documents ever sent out from Rome. While we thank God that Catholic numbers around the globe, especially in Africa and Asia, are increasing, the picture is radically different in Latin America with losses to the Protestants as well as the secularists. With no sense of irony, the document entitled Enlarge the Space of Your Tent, and the aim of doing so is to accommodate not the newly baptized, those who have answered the call to repent and believe, but anyone

who might be interested enough to listen. Participants are urged to be welcoming and radically inclusive, no one is excluded. The document does not urge even the Catholic participants to make disciples of all nations, much less to preach the Savior in season and out of season. The first task for everyone and especially the teachers is to listen in the Spirit according to this recent update of the Good News. Synodality as a way of being for the Church is not to be defined, but just to be lived.

It revolves around five creative tensions, starting from radical inclusion and moving towards mission in a participatory style, practicing co-responsibility with other believers and people of good will. Difficulties are acknowledged such as war, genocide and the gap between the clergy and laity, but all can be sustained, say the bishops, by a lively spirituality. The image of the church as an expanding tent with the Lord at its centre comes from Isaiah, and the point of it is to the church as an expanding tent with the Lord at its center comes from Isaiah and the point of it is to emphasize that this expanding tent is a place where people are heard and not judged, not excluded. So we read that the people of God need new strategies,

not quarrels and clashes but dialogue where the distinction between believers and unbelievers is rejected. The people of God must actually listen, it insists, to the cry of the poor and of the earth. Because of differences of opinion on abortion, contraception, the ordination of women to the priesthood and homosexual activity, some felt that no definitive position on these issues can be established or proposed. Shame on them. I'm sorry.

No, I'm not sorry. Shame on them. No, don't apologize. This is also true of polygamy and divorce and remarriage. However, the document is clear on the special problem of the inferior position of women in the dangers of clericalism. So there we go. Although the positive contribution of many priests is acknowledged.

What is one to make of this potpourri, this outpouring of new age goodwill? It is not a summary of Catholic faith or New Testament teaching. It is incomplete, hostile, and significant ways to the apostolic tradition and nowhere acknowledges the New Testament as the Word of God, normative for all teaching on faith and morals. The Old Testament is ignored, patriarchy rejected, and the Mosaic law, including the Ten Commandments, is not acknowledged. Two points can be made initially.

The two final synods in Rome in 2023 and 24 will need to clarify their teachings on moral matters. As the relator, chief writer and manager, Cardinal Jacques-Claude Holleric has publicly rejected the basic teachings of the Church on sexuality, on the grounds that they contradict modern science. We did look up that quote and that is a correct characterization. Repent, Cardinal, repent. In normal times, this would have meant that his continuing as relator was inappropriate, indeed impossible. The synods have to choose whether they are servants and defenders of the apostolic tradition

on faith and morals or whether their discernment compels them to assert their sovereignty over Catholic teaching, they must decide whether basic teachings on things like priesthood and morality can be parked in a pluralist limbo where some choose to redefine sins downwards and most agree to differ respectfully. Outside the synod, discipline is loosening, especially in Northern Europe, where a few bishops have not been rebuked, even after asserting a bishop's right to dissent. A de facto pluralism already exists more widely in some parishes and religious orders on things like blessing homosexual activity. Any thoughts before we, I think we're about halfway through.

Sorry, I know you're fine. I'm Sorry, I- No, you're fine. I'm skimming the- Just the fact that- I'm skimming the, you know, the other thing we should have done before we went live. I found the document that he's referring to. Yeah. So I'm skimming it and just kind of- The fact that we have a bishop who is not denouncing homosexual activity as intrinsically

evil and disordered at the head of this is seriously problematic. I found the quote on homosexuality I think he's referring to, but I haven't read it yet. Yeah, feel free to check it out. So I can give a cold read if you want me to. No, I feel you, I'll read a few more paragraphs. This is, this is, this is golden again. Thank God for a good prince of the church, the late Cardinal, George Cardinal Pell. Diocesan bishops are the successors of the apostles, the chief teachers in each diocese

and the focus of local unity for their people and of universal unity around the pope, the successor of Peter. Since the time of St Irenaeus of Lyon, the bishop is also the guarantor of continuing fidelity to Christ teaching, the apostolic tradition. They are governors and sometimes judges as well as teachers and sacramental celebrants and are not just wall flowers or rubber stamps. Enlarge the tent is alive to the failings of bishops who sometimes do not listen have autocratic tendencies. See, that's what's funny. That's what's kind of ironic here that this seems to be a criticism of those bishops who aren't listening

So we're speaking so To then look at those who are like this is seriously problematic I'm having people fall away from the Catholic faith because they're getting taught nonsense from the pulpit and That nonsense isn't being corrected to then tell them that they're the problem again gaslighting. So I just found an interesting quote on liturgy in the document. Go for it. The reports emphasize in many ways.

Sorry, this is from 3.5. Which document? Paragraph 88. This is the document Cardinal Powell is referring to. So enlarge your tent. document paragraph eighty eight this is the document cardinal pals referring to so in larger tent paragraph eighty eight dates the reports emphasize in many ways the deep link between synodality and liturgy quote in walking together prayer devotion prayer devotion to Mary as a missionary disciple listening to the world lexio divina and liturgical celebration inspired the purpose of belonging Which is from the Colombian report. So I think these are the synodal

So it sounds like there were different stages and we're at we're now approaching the continental stage of the worldwide stage And so this seems to be from the document the synodal report from the country of Colombia from the document, the synodal report from the country of Columbia. But like, this is another one of those things where, like. If you're already. Angry, I can't help but think that this is what celibates think a good way a parent should lead their children. Just listen to them. Maybe they just want to drink sugar and watch cartoons all day and you know we should journey together. It's like no there is an authority

natural authority here. There is a natural hierarchy in the home and I and I need to be listened to. The other thing is of course God has revealed his wishes to us his commandments towards us. I'm sorry I'm just I people should read this document because there are some quotes that I'm seeing here that like I want to express but they feel like so much worse than they are out of context. They're not good. They sound.

We'll put a link in the description below. Yeah, but I do like this point of Cardinal Pell in large intent is alive, right? It's aware. It seems to be aware of the failings of bishops who sometimes do not listen, have autocratic tendencies and can be clericalist and individualist. Fair enough. Again, that's why our Holy Father Pope Francis has invited us to speak to the bishops. There are signs of hope, of effective leadership and cooperation, but the document opines that pyramid models of authority should be destroyed.

I really hope it doesn't do that. And the only genuine authority comes from love and service. Right? Love and service doesn't negate hierarchy. The opposite of hierarchy is anarchy. It's not peace or sitting around singing Kumbaya. Let's continue. Baptismal dignity is to be emphasized.

Not ministerial ordination and governance style should be less hierarchical and more circular and participative. The main actors in all Catholic synods and councils and in all orthodox synods have been the bishops. In a gentle cooperative way, this should be asserted and put into practice at the continental synods, so that pastoral initiatives remain within the limits of sound doctrine. Bishops are not there simply to validate due process and offer a nihil obstat to what they have observed. None of the synod's participants, lay religious priests or bishops, are well served by the

synod ruling that voting is not allowed and propositions cannot be proposed. To pass on only the organizing committees views to the Holy Father for him to do as he decides is an abuse of synodality a Sideline of the bishops which is unjustified by scripture or tradition It is not due process and it is and is liable to manipulation. I think doesn't this like enlarging of the tent and then like the more. Like this just feels like the church is becoming infected by the same problems that Western and American politics are affected by, where we have people talking

about like, oh oh we need to vote and have all these voices and then when it comes to like the time the stage where difference can actually be made the voting stops and it's a small group of people deciding you do you understand what you mean like it feels like we complaint we hear about like if you turned on Tucker Carlson, he'd probably complain about an issue that

sounded eerily similar to this tonight in American politics. So we're being invited to give our opinion, but your fear is that the opinion is only welcomed if it aligns with- Well, like this is what Pell just said, right? The only, like they're not voting on what gets passed on to the Pope, the organizing committee is. So whoever's on the organizing committee, whoever was appointed there is making the final decision. So this is what he said, it's an abuse of synodality.

So his complaint is that like, one, like what is synodality, is it a good thing? And then two, if it is, if the things you guys say are good about synodality are good, then why aren't you, like you abandon them as soon as it comes to the stage when it matters? Like I'm tracking. This is like where I get to this point where it's like I don't want to fall into the angry

rad trad mindset where I'm just like screaming about like their evil. They hate us or you know like they want to control us or they want to like destroy the church but like Look at that and tell me like if you're like a novice or no Like I don't even I don't want to sound it say in a way that sounds condescending But if you're like a like think that like all this stuff is great and that taylor marshal is an evil person Read this stuff by cardinal pelt read this document and tell me that Taylor Marshall and Jay Dyer Who's on the docks by the way who's orthodox still has criticisms

But it talks constantly about footprint tell me that these guys are totally insane for having this perception. We all like simple narratives It simplifies our worldview. We like to think that Australians are laid back, Americans are loud, at least people outside of America, the French are arrogant, you know, the Italians or whatever. Like we like a simple narrative. It makes our world simpler. But to point to any individual, say a public figure and to say they're entirely this way or entirely that way is, is not fair. You know, so, but that isn't to say they're entirely this way or entirely that way is not fair. No. So, but that isn't to say that there aren't abuses or, I don't know, tendencies that certain people, including myself, may a culprit could lead others to, but

I see one criticism I've gotten and I know I'll get for this too. I got an email. Someone said, like, I was commenting on certain things that were taking place. And someone said, you need to stay away from this stuff. He's like, do what you're good at and just expound to people the beauty of the Catholic faith. Yeah, fine. Here's the problem with that.

The people who are listening to pines with Aquinas are also trying to wrestle with things like this. So what are you going to do? Just like not engage them, not respond to them and allow certain YouTube channels, and I'm not making a statement of which ones, but some that may cross that line and fall into conspiracy theories or something like that, or might try to justify set of accountism or schism. It's like they're the only people discussing it at that point. So you've got these well-meaning people who are trying to become Catholic, but they have legitimate

questions. You see what I'm saying? I know. I totally understand what you're saying. And it's like even more regrettable because as a public figure, you get put into this place where it's an impossible dichotomy. Either you have to engage in it and feel like maybe you're falling short of something of some responsibility you may have as a public figure. Yeah. Or you have to like, or you either have to shut your mouth. You either have to shut your mouth and not engage and, and wonder if you're

falling short of a responsibility or you have to not engage in it or you have to engage in it. And then like, here we are doing this, like doing this incredibly delicate dance. You and I, we don't want to say anything that comes across in a way that can say. Like, we're trying so hard to be, you know, that, you know, it's like faithful as sons of the church. Yeah, literally. It's like we've got it's like there's some like kids who are like in their teenage years, right?

So they're old enough to have some idea of what's right and wrong and they want to be taught and then they're looking at their parents and realizing that their parents need to be corrected and here they are in this awkward and sad and just heartbreaking situation where they don't know how to do it. That's exactly right, brother. And that's what's happening. Like you don't know how to say these things in a way. And so all you can do is pray and ask the Lord for the strength and for the strength

to say it correctly. It's like it's heartbreaking. I don't know what else to say about it. Yeah. We're almost done here. By an enormous margin, regularly worshipipping Catholics everywhere do not endorse the present Synod findings. How's that?

So if you want to listen to us and by you, by if you want to listen to us like we're talking about a German bishop who is, it seems very close to endorsing sodomy, or at least seems to refuse to denounce them as intrinsically disordered. Like that's one of the guys in charge of the synod. So I like that, by an enormous margin. So I want to invite, because it's not just Americans who listen to this show.

I think that's the other kind of way people gaslight the trads as they say, this is just an American thing First of all as an Australian. I'm offended for my American friends when they're told that it's like even if it were why would that? Why would it follow that they don't have a point? Even if it even if it was only us Americans who were being had crazy Cardinals and bishops Then all the more reason to in that state, like there's all these quotes from the middle the middle 20th century popes about how like the nation and or the you know the that more secular bonds of people are still

matter. Yeah and not just correcting our own bishops but like pointing to the abuse of other bishops, say the German bishops. And then you and then Americans get told that's just an American thing, which is such a sneering remark. Like couldn't it be possible that certain American Catholics know what the hell they're talking about and might have a point? Shouldn't we be should we be listening to all members of the church?

And don't American Catholics deserve to be taught? Well, and but the point I was trying to make is just that I have many listeners throughout the world from all different countries We checked yesterday and so we had seven downloads from Vatican City. Yeah, so wherever you are Bishops he's listening. Well, no, but I think so. But well if you are love you Pope Francis praying for you but tell your bishops say we want to be taught the faith. And whenever you hear a bishop teach the truth, and of course, they very often do thank them for it. Whenever a priest or a bishop says something

that kicks up against secular and satanic dogma, praise them for it. You know, all right. Oh, and letanic dogma. Praise them for it. You know, all right. Oh, and let's finish this. Um, neither is there much enthusiasm at senior church levels. Continued meetings of this sort deepen division and a knowing few can exploit the muddle and goodwill. The ex Anglicans among us are right to identify the deepening confusion,

the attack on traditional morals and the insertion into the dialogue of neo-Marxist jargon about exclusion, alienation, identity, marginalization, the voiceless, LGBTQ, as well as the displacement of Christian notions of forgiveness, sin, sacrifice, healing, redemption. Why the silence on the afterlife of reward or punishment on the four last things, death and judgment, heaven and hell so far the synodal way has neglected indeed downgraded the transcendent covered up the centrality of Christ with appeals to the Holy Spirit and encouraged resentment especially among participants working documents are not part of the magisterium they they are one basis for discussion, to be judged by the

whole people of God and especially by the bishops with and under the Pope. The working document needs radical changes. The bishops must realize that there is work to be done in God's name sooner rather than later. And so we just pray that Pope Francis will put a stop to some of this craziness. We pray that some of these bishops who are advocating for intrinsically evil things would repent. Because, look, here's the thing. All of us are going to have to face judgment. I'm going to have to face judgment for all of the words I speak carelessly.

God have mercy on me, a sinner. And so will our cardinals. Yeah, I was talking to a friend recently who was looking at the state of the Catholic Church and he was bemoaning it. And I said, I think it's way worse than you think it is. I think it's way worse than Taylor Marshall thinks it is. But I said, he said to me, but what I realized is the largest part of this church is the church triumphant. They are part of the same church. So we might look to some of our leaders, we might look to our own failings, our own cowardice and despair, but our King is Jesus Christ. Our Queen Mother is the Blessed Virgin

Mary. Our older brothers and sisters are in heaven. The angels, the archangels, I mean there is so much power there that there's really no call to despair But there is a call I think because Pope Francis has asked for it to offer our feedback to our To our bishops to our priests. Yeah, I think Matt and I will be reaching out to our bishop Monfortin Yeah, let's do that And we'd encourage you guys to do the same for you. Should we close with the prayer? Yeah here I feel like we should absolutely tough discussion. I feel like we should ask the guys to do the same for you. Should we close with the prayer? Yeah. I feel like we should. Absolutely. A really tough discussion.

I feel like we should ask the Lord to come into it. Yeah. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. Amen. Oh, heavenly king, comforter, spirit of truth, everywhere present and filling all things, you are the treasury of blessing and the giver of life. Come and dwell within us Cleanse us of all stain and save our souls. Oh gracious one Father we ask your blessing upon your church. We ask your blessing upon

us humble sons and daughters we ask your blessing upon the clergy who are also your humble sons guide your church and help us not to lose heart. Help us not just to get our dopamine fix from news, ecclesial news articles. Help us to be first and foremost men and women of prayer who wake up every morning and surrender their day to you, who pray throughout the day, who teach their children the faith, and we trust in you. We thank you for Pope Francis.

We ask you to bless him and to guide him as our universal shepherd. We pray for the heretics within the church that they would be instructed and converted. Yeah. Blessed Mother, pray for us. Pray for me. Pray for our listeners. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. St. Anthony of Padua, hammer of heretics. Pray for us in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.