Pints With Aquinas - Christian Mysticism, The Brown Scapular, and The Little Way (Fr Michael-Joseph Paris, O.C.D.)

Episode Date: December 12, 2024

Fr. Michael-Joseph Paris, O.C.D., is a dedicated Discalced Carmelite priest currently serving as the Subprior and Director of Postulants at the Carmelite community in Holy Hill, Wisconsin. He was ordained in 2011 for the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., and later joined the Carmelites in 2016. Known for his deep devotion to St. Thérèse of Lisieux, Fr. Paris has extensively studied her life and writings, sharing his insights through various platforms. He is also a co-host of the "Carmelcast" podcast and the "Catholic Classics" series on Ascension Presents, where he delves into profound spiritual and theological topics. — Discalced Carmelites, Immaculate Heart of Mary Province https://www.discalcedcarmel.org/ ICS Publications Channel https://www.youtube.com/@ICSPublications — 🍺 Get episodes a week early, 🍺 score a free PWA beer stein, and 🍺 enjoy exclusive streams with me! Become an annual supporter at https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors: Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/matt Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Strive21: https://strive21.com/matt 💻 Social Media: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd X: https://www.x.com/@Pints_W_Aquinas TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 Store: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com/

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There's a part in Story of the Soul, it sounds almost like a nihilist or something, where she says like, this mocking voice says to me, like rejoice, rejoice in this heaven that awaits you. When you die, you're gonna find not only that it doesn't, it's not there, but the night of nothingness. The night of nothingness. And she's like, now I'm afraid I don't wanna say more.

You know, so it's like- She says that'm afraid I don't want to say more, you know So it's like she says that yeah in the manuscript. Mm-hmm So tea drink a coffee drinker I tend to be tea yeah. Yeah if I do I want to be a tea guy. Yeah I want to be a tea guy. Yeah. Just like I want to be a pipe guy. I can't make the, I can't enjoy it as much. Yeah. What is, what's the difference with the pipe?

I've never experienced the pipe. Yeah. Well, the pipe, it's a lot less tobacco. First of all, second of all, you have your mouth around acrylic, not leaf. Yeah. That's a different experience. Yeah. Um, also you kind of have to keep it in your

craw to keep it lit. If you take it out, it tends to go out. Oh sure. Whereas a cigar you can put down for five minutes. Yes, okay. Are you ready Josiah? Yeah, anyway, g'day. It's nice to have you. Good to be here. Thank you so much for coming. Oh yeah, it's a great honour. Thank you. I saw a video of yours on Ascension Presents talking about the scapula. Ah. So I wrote to Father Paine, like, who is this guy? So who is this guy? Yeah, who's this guy? That's a good question.

Well, Discalced Carmelite Friar, priest, Christian, first of all. And yeah, I just, I'm such a blessing to be here and to be able to share about the scapular share about our spirituality Or whatever whatever we want to talk about. Yeah, were you always a carmelite? um, no, I was uh, I was not a carmelite actually I started Well, I after I had my conversion I was discerning different orders and thinking about a lot of different places and every time I visited it

Just didn't seem to fit, you know, like it was, everything was, or certain things were really good, but other ways I just knew like, I don't think this is for me. And so I ended up in Diocesan Seminary. And it was kind of by default, but in a way then God just like made it very clear I was meant to be in Diocesan Seminary and ended up becoming a Diocesan priest.

And then five years into being a priest, ended up becoming a Carmelite. What was that transition like? Yeah. If you don't mind talking about it. No, not at all. It's crazy. I mean, Pope Francis has a good phrase from way back.

I remember at the beginning of his papacy, he said, God is a God of surprises. And I experienced that firsthand in the sense that I had no idea that God would call me to the religious life after I was ordained a priest. I knew it was possible, but I kind of always looked at priests who did that and thought like, God, it's kind of, they're kind of trying to just like run from the ministry, you know, or it's like, it's getting too hectic. So they, they just want to go pray and that'd

be nice. You know, it's kind of like a fantasy, right? And so I already kind of had that in my mind. So when, when I started experiencing this call to Carmel, it was like, I don't know. I don't know if this is for me. I don't think I could do this. I don't wanna be one of those guys that just like runs away. And God just, so I just, yeah, it was through reading Carmelite spirituality, it just became so clear to me,

like this is who I am, I guess. It's not just like something I like or something I wanna do. It's like, this is me and my being is caramel, you know? And I was like, and how am I supposed to live that? You know, and many people can live it in different ways, but then little by little, God just started showing me like, I actually want you to be a friar, you know,

a Carmelite friar. And so, yeah, so it was like, it was a big surprise in that sense. I did not see that coming, but it became like one of the most joyful things I can, yeah, so it was like, it was a big surprise in that sense, I did not see that coming. But it became like the one of the most joyful things I can yet of my life. And how long have you been a Carmelite friar? I've been a Carmelite friar now.

Yeah, shoot. Gosh, eight years. Okay. Yeah. Were you afraid as a diocesan priest that the novelty would wear off and you'd be stuck in this order that you made, you know what I mean? Like I should have just remained a secular priest who read Carmelite spirituality.

Was that a fear? Wow. You just spoke directly to my heart. I just know that would be probably something I would do. Definitely. No, it was, it was. Cause I thought, cause I've been, you know, every once in a while you can get really into something, you know, and it's like, I do it like every Tuesday, every Tuesday, I'm really into something. And by Friday I don't want anything to do with it. Yes, I think we're built the same way. Different personalities.

Yeah, but yeah. But it's cool though in a way because it keeps you interested, engaged, you know, and so I love like, I love different saints, you know, I'd always go through different phases of the saints. And so I remember when Carmel started, I did think like, maybe this is just that, like is it just a fad kind of, not a fad,

but it's just something I'm really into right now and I don't wanna make a rash decision, you know, and do something like lock myself in. And I remember it got to a point where I was like, I was actually really nervous, like, am I going the wrong way with this? Am I just like taking this like to an extreme? And I prayed one night, I was like,

Lord, like if I'm going the wrong path and I don't wanna mess up my life in a sense, but I like do it this, you know, please show me, you know? and I really prayed like just please make it clear if I'm doing the wrong thing and and that next morning I remember I was I was in the rectory. It was a Sunday afternoon and the doorbell rang and of course, I was like, I don't want to get the door. I just said, you know, I'm really tired I was like, no, let me go. Let me go down there and and Opened it up and it was this lady who was like, hey, I'm a secular Carmelite.

You know, it was just like a third order lay Carmelite. And I just want to let you know, I'm praying for you. And I met you like five years ago and you might not remember, but I was going to Avila to do this course on spirituality. And I told you I would pray for you there in Avila to St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross. And I did, and I bought you something actually.

And today I just knew it was the day I should give it to you. And it was a priestly vestment of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Wow. You know, it's just like, what? So those kinds of things just helped me see like, all right, this is from God. Like, this is not just me getting into something and kind of helped offset that fear

that I really did have, you know. Wow. For those who are unfamiliar, what are the Carmelites? Who are the Carmelites? Yeah, well the Carmelites, we really base ourselves on the prophet Elijah, you know? I mean, we consider him our spiritual father because he was on Mount Carmel.

So all those like, you know, wild things he did, you know, slaying the prophets of Baal, calling down fire, was all on Mount Carmel. And so we consider him like, he kind of started this way of life on Mount Carmel. And so we consider him like he kind of started this way of life on Mount Carmel. And you hear about like the company of prophets, so these kind of followers of Elijah that he had with him. And the kind of the spiritual tradition is that kept going, you know, like after Elijah, like that kept going up until the time of Christ. What was it that kept

going? These prophets. Man in prayer? Yeah, living a life of prayer and prophetic kind of ministry in a way, but deeply rooted in prayer. And with Our Lady too. So Mary was always at the beginning, because if you remember in the Book of Kings, Elijah had a vision of Mary in the cloud. I do not remember this. You don't see that? Maybe if you say the verse, I'll go, oh yeah, what is this? No, this is, it's hard to draw out of actually. It's really symbolism, especially like medieval kind of accommodation of the scripture. So it's when Elijah, the drought is ending and he tells his servant, go look to see if

you see anything. And then they see a little cloud. And that little cloud, we've kind of see, read into that, that Elijah saw our lady actually. It doesn't say that though. No, it doesn't say that. It just says the cloud. It does a cloud. Protestants are screaming right now watching this.

No, this is, this is the, you know, the spiritual interpretation. I love it. I love it. And that this cloud would, that comes from the sea, but it's pure, right? So it comes from the sea, that's salty, but it's pure, so it's the Immaculate Conception. And it rains down, you know, the Messiah in our world. So this cloud brings the rain that ended the drought, the spiritual drought of sin and death in Jesus.

Praise God. So, so. That's what you get to do when you're the real church. You get to just interpret things however you'd like to interpret them, and everyone's gonna go along with it. That's really beautiful though. Right, right. It works. I mean it lines up, I feel like, you know, if you...

And so yeah, so then the tradition was that Elijah was so inspired by this virgin Messiah. I mean, virgin Messiah, alright, that's not right. He was a virgin. He was a virgin, to be clear. So yeah. By this virgin who would bring the Messiah, that he took a vow of virginity and all his followers as well would live this like pure kind of relationship with God on Mount Carmel and seeking God alone basically, you know, and then how that would play out in prophetic

ministry as well. So and that kept going, you know, so it's based on Our Lady and Elijah at the same time. And then you fast forward like, gosh, 1200 years, to where it's kind of like our first recorded history, is these guys just wound up on Mount Carmel. It's kind of like ragtag group of former Crusaders, pilgrims to the Holy Land. So around what around what year is this? Greg- This would be like in the mid-1100s or like late-1100s is where you see the Carmelites kind of first come to be formed in a kind of more like literal historical way. Mason- And from the beginning, did they have that sort of resonance with Elijah? And did they think of themselves as following that group of men that had prayed there since

his time? Or? Yeah. We would say yes. We don't have a lot of written documentation, but just the fact that they lived on Mount Carmel. And the Holy Land at that time too, it's even this way now. When you go, it's like everything kind of claims its fame because Jesus did this here,

or this happened here, right? And so it was the same back then. So it was like, obviously Carmel was like known for Elijah, right? So that there would have been this consciousness of like Elijah's presence, and they named their first chapel after Our Lady. So that too was kind of a sign because like they could have just named it after Elijah, but they named it after Mary. So it shows like they were totally dedicated to Mary, but in this kind of Elijah spirit on Mount Carmel, that there was consciousness of that, or at least like a seed of the spirit of Carmel was there in that way. Will Barron So when did this, as you put it,

a ragtag group of fellas come up with a prayer rule, get the scapula, the habit? Jason Kuznicki Yeah, yeah, well that was- Will Barron These are all very softball questions, but I actually am really interested and I think a lot of people are. I appreciate it though, and it's a good chance to share because yeah, you don't always get the history this way. And not that I explain it the best, but as time went on,

these guys who are living a very, you say, aromidical life, so kind of as like organized hermits, not too different from like maybe the Carthusians you could say, although they had a little bit of an apostolate, meaning that like if, so if there was some good reason to go out and preach or to like go do works of charity, like they were able to do that, they would leave their solitude and go do those works, but then they'd come right back to their solitude. So it was this kind of like the contemplative apostolic dimension work united in that way. And so as time went on though, they like, we need kind of protection, like a way of life that will like keep us, help us survive. Because if

they're just like informal, just kind of all there, like they could disband easily. So they asked Albert of Jerusalem, who's the Patriarch of the Holy Land, of the Latin Kingdom, to write them a rule. And basically he just kind of like wrote they ask Albert of Jerusalem, who's the Patriarch of the Holy Land of the Latin Kingdom, to write them a rule. And basically he just kind of like wrote what they were already doing and codified it. And it's a beautiful rule. It's very short, you know, and it's to the point, it's very spiritual. It's not like a lot of rules per se, but it's like kind of gives just like an overall sense of, you know, what the spirit of Carmel is, what they're supposed to live.

So it's a neat document from that time. Do you know offhand what some of the things are that is written in it? Yeah. I mean, one of the main things is we do this all in allegiance to Jesus Christ. That's kind of how it starts. So it just helps put the focus. It's all about the Lord. Whatever we do, it's just all for Him. Then it talks about like living in one cell and really the heart of it is like meditating on the Lord day and night

So they say like to to always be meditating on the law of the Lord Which which really for us means like always living a kind of contemplative existence trying to like always be praying no matter what you're doing And that that that's possible to you, kind of gives hope that like, one can live that way. You can always be meditating on the law of the Lord, whatever you're doing. Was there any kind of prayer rule that was established and had to be followed? You know, not too much, not like, not something laid down, you know, it was kind of like what they were, it was just their prayer already. But then as time went on, it was like, and do the canonical hours, you know, that was one of the things like added to the rule, not too much later, but

it was like, you know, doing the canonical hours, kind of make it more official, but they just live such like a spontaneous life of prayer. It's hard to see like how they would have structured that, you know, now we need more structure. I feel like we need to kind of lay it out because it's easier to say like, Oh, everything I do is prayer, which means like you don't pray. But it seemed like that primitive spirit, you know, kind of was driving them and they didn't need maybe a lot of rules or different things at that time. But do we know how many kind of men were there? Yeah, I think it started out like, you could say maybe like 15 or 20,

and then it started to grow. And as it grew, they started founding new hermitages in the Holy Land. And at this point, are you all wearing the habit or is that something that developed? It probably developed a little bit over time, but even just the regular dress back then was just kind of like,

they were probably just wearing rough sackcloth. Right, yeah, yeah. Just a little variation. Exactly. Back then, okay. You know? So, so yeah, so they were just probably living like penitential, kind of like what other groups of penitents would have lived, like the early Franciscans or certain things. But then as they like started founding different places, they became more official, kind of

more of a habit. They had this mantle, you know, which is like the prophetic mantle of Elijah, but it was striped. And so it was very different because it was striped. And one of the controversies later, after the Muslim reconquest of the Holy Land, they had to leave, you know, and the tradition is that first group was martyred on Mount Carmel while they sang the Salve Regina. It's kind of a, you know, very're a beautiful poetic way to go. And, uh, but a lot ended up going to Italy, to England, to France, and, um, and starting the way of life there. So that's kind of how it got to Europe, but they had this stripe mantle that people were like, what is that?

Like they, they really made fun of them. Actually. It was like, it ended up almost like kind of led to their suppression. Cause they just seemed like this weird group, like why this mantle and what are you doing? You know? Yeah. Yeah, interesting. Okay. So when did Unless there's a lot to talk about before our lady of Carmel give the scapula and how did that happen? Yes. Well Kind of coinciding with this like being sort of persecuted in a way by this being this new group And there's already all these other men in King groups starting. Yeah, you know

This is right right at the time of Francis Dominic like not long after interesting So just not long after that. Mm-hmm, because there was a ton of chaos obviously regarding the mendicant orders exactly They don't show up exactly looking like zebras What was the stripes are they horizontal or vertical? They were horizontal. Okay Yeah, like the old prison uniforms or something. Yeah But And also, you know all the controversy the mannequins to like the bishops were threatened by them too Because it was like taking the people from the parish is a different thing

So that it was already at and it there was a council. I forget which council it was It was I think it was one of the latter in councils actually forbid any new orders because it was like so chaotic It was like no more enough enough enough Exactly there's wisdom to that right yeah, you know you could just multiply these things But they the Carmelites were like seen as okay. You're totally a new order You have no right to exist basically no one people see you as a threat anyway So there it was very close to being suppressed. And there's all these other orders that were suppressed at that time too, like that no one

hears about anymore. So the tradition is St. Simon Stock, who was one of like the early generals, was so kind of, you know, nervous and just in agony about the future of the order that he was praying to Our Lady, who's like, this order is dedicated to you we're all for you like please give us some sign of your favor bestow your protection on us and that she appeared to him with the scapular and said here is you know this sign of my privilege you know anyone wearing this habit will be saved they will not suffer eternal eternal fire and and that like after that point on you can like, they got a lot more vocations. The popes approved them in spite of all the odds. There's even a story that, like, you know, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure were both going to, like, argue for their suppression, and that they

didn't make it to the council. And so they weren't able to. Bonaventure is the patron saint of bowel issues. So who knows what happened to him on his way over? Because, sorry. That's a true story, by the way. He is the patron saint of bowel issues. This is good. It's very incarnational.

That is interesting. So we survived. That was kind of how, through the scapular, we could say it was from then on, you could see everything turned in our favor and we were able to flourish and kind of plug into this new mendicant movement, but still try to retain our own identity

as kind of hermits and seeking contemplative prayer. So that's the early history of the Carmelites. Wow. All right, well, I need to talk about the scapula right up front because we're touching upon it now. What is a scapula and how did it, how did the tradition or the pious use of it evolve? Yeah, definitely.

Well, the scapula, I mean, it's a very simple garment. You know, this is like the big scapula, right? I mean, this is like, it just means actually, same word for shoulder, right? So like hangs over your shoulders, so there's nothing too fancy in that word. It also comes from the word for sword too. So early on it was seen as like a spiritual weapon in a way.

But essentially too, it's just to protect the habit. Cause you have something that you can wash easier. Yeah. And it's very simple. When have something that you can wash easier. Yeah. And you know, it's very simple. When you're in the garden or cooking or something. Exactly, exactly. So, I hesitate to use the word glorified apron, you know, because it became so sacred,

but that's kind of like a lot of people saw it that way. And so that was kind of the neat thing. And it's one of the evidence, I think, for the historicity of the scapular miracle, is that all of a sudden this thing that people didn't really see as all that special is just part of the, all of a sudden it becomes so sacred, you know? And it becomes these sign of Our Lady and the protection and this great promise that those who wear it faithfully, she'll make sure that they make it.

So yeah, so in a nutshell, that's kind of where where the scapula came from in terms of it's like, yeah, part of the habit. And I heard that maybe lay people would approach Carmelite monks and they would tear a bit of their own scapula off and put something together. Is that true? Yeah, that's my understanding too of the history is like, and I have to say like, God, I respect those guys

because I would never rip my scapula, but I was asking a lot. But yeah, that they would like cut little pieces out of their own scapula and give them to lay people and to share in the promise and to really share in the spirituality too. It's like they want to be part of this thing. And so that became the tradition of like wearing a little square, a little square attached to the other side. I wonder, do you think that the Carmelite scapula is the most popular devotional that you wear?

I would think it would be more popular than say the miraculous metal. Yes. And I can't think of what's much more popular than the miraculous metal. Right, right. Well, it's funny, we have a gift shop at my shrine and and every Sunday, you know, it's pretty popular and people come out to get blessings afterwards. So we're out there outside

the gift shop. So if anyone wants to bless their things and I have to say, I probably bless 10 times, no, 50 times as many Benedictine medals. Oh, interesting. I do scapulars at this point. No, 50 times as many Benedictine medals. Oh, interesting. Than I do scapulars at this point. So it's interesting. Any reason for that, you think? I don't know whether it's just like Catholic merchandise is like going that route.

It's just so popular. But everything has a miraculous metal, like bracelets. You sort of look at them with disappointment. Where's your scapula? Look at me, what do you think? I wish, yeah. I hope the scapula can be that once more. Um, and it's hard too, because the Benedictine medal has this really long blessing,

you know, when you do it. So it's like, man, why don't you go to Latrobe, go talk to the Benedictines, have them blessed for you next. Um, well I think what's cool about the scapula is if you're on an airplane and you see someone wearing a crucifix Maybe they're Catholic. Maybe it's jewelry. Yeah, if it's a miraculous metal, they're probably Catholic if they were in a scapula It's kind of like the yarmulke for Catholics. It's like a weird intense identifier You know like no one wearing the scapula is not all in yes Yes, that is no that is a good point and maybe that's the helpful thing with scapula now.

It does signify a real commitment. It's not just something that, yeah, anyone can have a scapula. You don't build it into every Catholic jewelry per se. Yeah. But the hope is that we can, I would really love to see the scapula take off again because it is such a beautiful sign, too,

of Our Lady's protection of consecration. It's something tangible, you know. And yeah, so I just feel like the world needs a scapular in this moment. What bugs you about kind of scapulars? And I'm just, this is a very trivial question, right? Like how they're made. When you see a scapular, that's a good scapular. I'm glad to see this is the kind of scapular. And then you're like, you know, there's metal scapulars that I know that are permitted. And then what's your take? Yes. Presume you're very opinionated on this. I hope you are. For sure.

Good. I love I love getting into this stuff. And I I don't know if I could use your scapular as an example. Do you take it off? If you don't mind. It's just a little one. Oh, I had I did have a big one, but it was really hot in Florida. See, and it was just drenching my shirt. So I kind of saw this and I thought this is like the perfect scapular because it's solid. It doesn't hang too low, you know, and so that also does help people see it every once in a while. Like it does kind of, you know, because it kind of sticks up maybe and it's got like nice thick cords, you know, so yeah.

And it's wool. It's wool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? I think it's a bit short though this one look at this Yeah, you don't think this bit too short. It's I mean no I think that's good. Let's have a look at yours See I'm afraid to touch this thing Why cuz it's disgusting these sweaty and is that why you're afraid? That's beautiful. Oh, yes since Simon stock. Oh wow this is Hardcore good job that is oh yeah, you know it's good because the brown cord has turned kind of purple Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, yes. Since Simon Stock. Oh, wow. This is hardcore. Good job, Josiah.

You know, it's good because the brown cord has turned a kind of purple color. It's he's had it on so long. Yeah, that's nice. I see. I before I get I hope you're more opinionated than I am about scapulars. You probably aren't because I'm pretty opinionated and it's not a not a virtue. But I'm not a fan of scapulas that have images sewn onto them because I find they often look kind of cartoonish.

Sure. Silly. I also don't like when they'll have like Padre Pio and I'm like, what does he have to do there? Why is he there? Yeah. I like just brown, nothing on it. Yeah. Yeah. Simplicity. The other thing, too, is I was like surfing a lot in Florida and I lost, I think, at least two scapulas. So I'm like when it's tight it's not coming off. And that would be the time

you'd want the scapula the most probably is when you're surfing I imagine. It's gonna be scary sometimes. So all right give us your opinionated views of the scapula and make them blistering. All right wow well I think the scapulas are like well made you know they, they're not going to break apart, you know, and they don't. Yeah, they don't have to have the ones that would get me actually. And gosh, I don't want to alienate any like scapular manufacturers, but but like the the plastic coating. Yeah, I don't like that. You know, and I mean, the scratching, I mean, maybe but it's like penitential perhaps, you know, maybe, you know, use that as a it also looks silly. So that's another that's a joke. So it's also penitential in that respect. No, I know what you mean.

I don't know why they do that. I guess it's to maybe waterproof it somehow, or to protect it. Sure. Yeah, I don't like that. But that's, yeah, that's not my thing. I also, I'm sure it's all the, what I'm saying right now,

none of it is meant to invalidate anybody's scapula. It's more just my little annoyances that are just about me more than the thing, right? But I also don't love it when scapulas have like a white cord. Yeah. Just keep it all brown. Right. Yeah, why, what's the need? more than the thing, right? But I also don't love it when scapulars have like a white cord. Just keep it all brown. Yeah, what's the need? That's the thing.

It's simple enough to do it, you know, that like that scaffold is so simple, but why do you have to embellish it? And all these things. Some people too have the, you know, there's all other scapulars from other traditions that have kind of gotten popular. Yeah.

Do you guys like look at that with scorn? Kind of. This is green scapular. Get out of here. No, and I'm sure they have beautiful traditions. Indeed, indeed. It's a funny thing. It's just like how this stuff works. How the brown scapula becomes, you know, like it like outweighs all those other ones. How that historically happened, you know, it's just, you know, but I'm very proud of our scapula because I think it just helped so many people too. The brown scapula, the promises, what it means.

I think one of the things that annoy me at times with scapular stuff is people can get so focused on the nitty gritty of it, and it almost become scrupulous about the scapula when it's supposed to be this sign of hope. But then it all becomes how much do I have to wear like what if you know, what if I take it off for this one thing and and and or if If it's a different material or if it's this or that or or the promises, you know

What if I don't do this or can I do I have to do that? And it's like and I understand those things have their place, you know, but yeah, but we can get so focused on it yeah, well, it's also just it's treating god like a um vending machine You know, I gotta put the money in this way and press this button as opposed to a loving father with a loving mother The blessed virgin who wants your salvation. Yes Exactly. I just yeah, I i'm thinking of an analogy You know if I told my kid i'll take him to Disneyland or something or the beach or something and then all morning

He's wondering what the loopholes might be you know you said is never did you when you say that what are you doing? I love you. I want good things for you. I told you what we're doing. Let's do this You can trust yourself to my desire for you. Yeah, you know something like that exactly exactly And it's it's that whole thing we always suspicious of what seems too good to be true, you know, or too beautiful or too good. And like, and I think that's, it's a great, what you just said is a great way of like Carmelite spirituality in general is like,

you can trust, you know, that this promise is real. And like, if it's too good to be true, like God is a source of that. So it is true, it is real. You don't have to doubt it or undermine it by that. Because trust by its very nature is an emphasis on the other, isn't it? If I trust you, I'm trusting you.

Whereas if I'm trying to manipulate you to give me what I want, do you know what I mean? Which sometimes may be the way we pray and think about God and his love for us because we're scared and because we doubt his goodness like Adam and Eve did in the garden, and like humanity has done ever since. Trust is scary because it takes the control away from me, right? Yes.

It puts it on you. Whereas scrupulosity, which is a scourge of the devil, I really think, I'm not saying it's intentional, but I think very often it just becomes, I'm so afraid that you don't want what's best for me, that I need to figure out a way to make you give me what you probably don't want to or wouldn't unless I did these things. And I feel like sometimes that does come into play

in Catholic spirituality and just Christian spirituality in general. Yep, yep, because we want that reassurance, and we wanna kind of have it in ourselves's, that is the scary thing is like, because going out to another person actually is, is probably like what sanctifies us the most too, you know, because it, it, you're getting out of yourself, you're being less ego-centered, you know, you're not just being stuck in your head. And, and that, yeah, if whatever promotes that, I think we need to go towards that. And if it keeps you stuck in your head, whether it's the scapular or anything like that,

then it's a good sign that like, you don't need to go that route. Like you don't need to, like, don't let yourself just kind of keep thinking and going down that rabbit hole. What would help the scapula as far as promotion? You said you'd like to see a revival of it. What would need to happen? Faith, I love the mother of God, all these things.

But I mean, do y'all ever think about that? It feels like if there was anyone in a place to help bring about this revival, it would be the Carmelites. I would hope so. I would hope so. You know, God uses, he lifts up all kinds of people. Like actually, I'm just talking to Deacon Michael last night and he's teaching on St. Robert Bellarmine, who's a Jesuit,

of course, doctor of the church. But he kind of saved the scapular in a lot of ways, because there was a lot of arguments about the historicity of it and some of these kind of extravagant promises attached to it, and the Carmelites would preach it all over, you know? And so people didn't like it and actually denounced them to the Holy Office. And the Holy Office studied the question, and it was looking like, again, kind of like St. Simon's stock and the suppression of the order, it was looking like perhaps the scapular might be suppressed even, you wouldn't be able to preach it, you know. And Robert Bellarmine was raised up and he defended it and he kind of showed why we can

preach it and, you know, with a couple caveats, you know, don't go to extremes, you know, but yeah, so it was like God used this good holy Jesuit to help save the scapular. So he can use whoever for it, but I think in our day, the hope is that as Carmelites, we can really just keep promoting it. And like you said, love for the mother of God. Consecration, I think that's like one angle that I appreciate even more now, is that like it really can be a sign of consecration. And that's kind of what it was originally. Like, Carmelites were like early on in the sort of understanding of consecration, like Carmelites kind of like stood for that in a way. People thought like, if I want to like

belong to Mary's order, like be totally Marian, I'll become a Carmelite. That was like a lot motivation for a lot of people in the early days to become Carmelites. And so now, you know, that Carmelite spirit consecration has spread, has exploded in the church. But I think the scapular can be like really, it's almost like this primal sign of like totally belong to Mary, you know, and she clothes you like she clothes her child and protects you and just like you're totally safe in her arms. I think of like St. Juan Diego, you know, and that promise of Our Lady Guadalupe, like what do you have to fear? Am I not here? I who am your mother. Yeah, beautiful.

Yeah. So what were the Carmelites like shortly before the revival? What was it? The 15th century, John of the Cross and Avila or 16th century? Yeah, because it's funny, you know, sometimes you'll read about the lives of saints and they'll complain about how they're great sinners and you're reading their stories being like, okay, you're just showing off. You're like the kid who gets a B or a kid who's going to get an A, but you know you're saying you failed it when I know I actually did fail it. So it's just frustrating sometimes. That said, you know, you read the stories about John of the Cross, whose fellow Carmelites

are like, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like locking him in a closet, maybe torturing him or anyway. So we'll get to that. But so what was the state of the Carmelite order prior to the reform and how did the reform come about? Yeah, no, this is one of these. I think if you look at the history of a lot of religious orders,

you see this, the beginnings are glorious, and these great saints, and then things kinda just get worn down over time. Maybe the routine sets in, or people try to find loopholes of things, or people join that maybe don't have that contemplative vocation, but they just wanna be part of it,

and then kinda water it down. So that definitely happened with the Carmelites, you know, like it's like all the orders. But the Carmelites, I think they felt it more keenly and like you even have early generals who like there's this one letter, it's called the fiery arrow of Nicholas the Frenchman. And he's just like lambasting for what the Carmelites have become. Like it's like you've moved into these cities, you know, you've lost your air medical spirit, you know, you just go to the university, you don't even pray anymore, like all these things. And like, and he was the general, you know,

and he ends up kind of retiring to a cave, you know, and lives the rest of his life that way. So like even, and that wasn't that- He was the head of the Carmelites at the time. He was. Is that what that means? Yeah. To say he's the general? Yeah, yeah, he was the, exactly he was exactly and it's a cool document actually if anyone wants to check it out it's called a fiery arrow and but is you get a

sense of like from the beginning even there was like this tension you know and there was always in the mind I think people like even the Carmelites who started to sort of go that route of like maybe lessening the contemplative demand you know and and the need for silence and solitude, because it's hard, you know, it gets hard and it's easier to kind of do other things, you know, even good things, but it's sometimes just easier to do those things than just like sit in your cell and be poor and empty, you know? And so, yeah, over time as like, kind of people started wanting to go more the route of like, we want to be like the big theologians,

we wanna be like everyone else in a way. They left the striped mantle, they gave it up because they're like, we don't wanna be too different. And so because of that, I think, spirit of a little bit of compromise. I gotta see if this striped mantle is online. I'm sure, yeah. Are there, Do you have...

Do you have them? Do you know what they look like? We have like paintings of what they look like. You might... You should be able to find it, I think, if you put it in. Yeah, because I'm thinking you have Claire... And Francis's habits. Whoa!

Is that that? That's a good... Is that it or no? That looks... See... That's pretty wild. I see or not that that looks see? I see I think more like that painting this one. Oh, I see You know it's funny is how like we're all about going back to tradition Yeah, until tradition looks kind of cringe and then we're like well Let's not get carried away stick with the brown

It is funny you see that like that of all the things to reform that was not brought back. Isn't that funny? You're serious about this John right? Yeah so should we bring? No no no just calm down there champion. Okay so was it white and brown or was it a light brown and a dark brown? It was probably unbleached it was like unbleached and bleached or you know it was just kind of like, well whatever the natural color was, probably like grayish and then the dark and then the black. Yeah. But, but so yeah, so I think the state of the order

like became this sort of, this tension. It was like, we're not living probably how our original forefathers lived, and we always wanna go back to that, you know? And yet, we also have these demands on to that, you know, and yet we also have these demands on us that like, how do you do both? And so you just see through the centuries this tension and it kind of in a way like our Holy Mother St. Teresa sort of helped bring, I mean she didn't totally solve the tension, but she helped bring about a way

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Yeah, the Frenchman. That's such a great line. The fiery arrow of Saint Nicholas, the Frenchman. That's neat. All right. And so was Teresa around during that time or was this long after him? Well, she she came. She came maybe like, yeah, 200 years later. So it was a while after.

But actually, the women had just gotten started. OK, so for a while, it was a while after. But actually, the women had just gotten started. For a while it was just the men. It's kind of interesting how it developed because one prior general was pretty farsighted and saw like, we need to have women as part of the order. And everyone said, don't do that. You already have all your struggles. It's going to complicate things. And there were a lot of women that were kind of living single lives. They weren't like totally affiliated to any convent, but they were a lot of women that were kind of living like single lives you know they were just they weren't like totally affiliated to any convent they were just kind of living spiritual lives and on their own and he

said why can't we just make them Carmelites you know and so he he went up against a lot to do that and it didn't seem like a great idea in certain ways but it's funny that was only about 50 years before Teresa of Avila came okay you know and thank goodness yeah Yeah, you know, yeah. Or else the Dominicans would rock right now. Well, I don't know what if she would have joined? Yeah. Wow. OK, cool. And so she was a powerhouse, right? Yeah.

I Caleric as Caleric gets. Sure. Tell me about tell me about her and how the reform began. Yes. Well, you know, she's an interesting figure. You know, she's there so complex and in a good way, like so rich, I guess. She said such a rich personality and she was she was someone who, like everyone could talk to. Everyone loved when they met her. You know, she's had this charm about her. And so you think of her as like this great mystic. Yes.

But it wasn't in the way that like made people feel bad or like feel like like put off or aloof, you know, she was just so human and so available to people. So it's kind of she was an incredible person but she you know she didn't always start that way you know she had her struggles you know she she was when she was a little girl her mom died when she was like 12 and that really affected her and she said from that point on, she's kind of started going down a bad path, like getting involved with these cousins who weren't the best influence on her. It's very modern actually, you see like this,

you know, kind of normal progression of an adolescent girl, but she felt like this strong call in a way to God, and yet she just totally kind of rejected it, in her mind at least. And it looks like too, there's good evidence that there was some romantic relationship there. For 16th century Spain too, for someone who wasn't married,

it's just, it's hard to imagine what that would have looked like, but it perhaps was even a cousin or some other person who she sort of fell in love with. You know, and nothing, she said, I didn't do anything to destroy my honor, but I could have, you know? And so she knew her fragility pretty early on.

And her dad got scared, you know, of this potential relationship and this kind of bad influence of the cousins. So he put her in like a boarding school in Avila, you know, not that far away of Augustinian nuns. And she hated it at first, you know? It's like she was ripped away from this love, from her friends. All of a sudden she's with all these like, she's hated it at first, you know, it's like she was ripped away from this love from her friends All of a sudden she's with all these like she's in a convent, you know, and like with all the strict rules of a convent

Was like a finishing school kind of thing, but she met this nun who was really cool She was just like easy to talk to she was very loving. She was a holy woman She prayed a lot and Teresa was like, whoa, like, you can be like, just like normal, and like good person, loving, and also like a saint at the same time. And so it started something in her, maybe I could be a nun, you know, even though like that's not where she was before, but she's like, maybe I could be a nun. And so she ended up becoming a nun in the Carmel, called the convent of the Incarnation. She had a friend that was there, that was kind of her main motivation.

And she wasn't totally on board yet though. It was like she had enough to be a nun. She had enough of a sense of her vocation, but it was really a fight for her. And she found a lot of happiness as a nun, but early on too, because she was so charming and like so loving and just like very affectionate, people like to talk to her.

They would send her to talk to the benefactors, to people who would donate money to the convent. And so she was going out constantly and talking to people and having these kind of relationships in a way, friendships, to help support the convent. But her heart was so divided by this. And it's hard to understand, but she, because when you read it, it doesn't seem like it's big deal, you know?

Right? It's like, what? She just had these friendships. Like what's the problem? But she knew in her heart, like she was seeking news apart from God, you know? And she had this sense, she said, whenever I knew someone liked me,

I couldn't stop thinking about them. So it's almost like an infatuation that experience You know where it's like you just you kind of get obsessed with someone Yeah, when they're in your life, and you know that they you know that they like you kind of it's just you know And so she experienced that a lot and she knew somehow she wasn't being faithful To God while experiencing that and it like it created such tension and she lived in that for like 20 years You know as a nun so it's in a way gives a lot of hope that like you can kind of struggle as like a good Catholic and And yet your conversion is still to come like God God is still gonna intervene in your life and like maybe do something big

and So so yeah, so with these struggles, she was still praying She started doing two hours of prayer every day, which seems kind of crazy She didn't she didn't have to it wasn't part of the rule, but she did it. And for her, it was like agony because it was like when she was in prayer, she said all she could think of it, how she was being unfaithful to God. And she kind of wanted to be with her friends. And when she was with her friends, she was just thinking of like, I'm

being unfaithful to God and I should be praying. And like, I may have missed something. Was she with the Augustinian nuns or. Oh yes. So sorry. So she, she didn't want to join the Augustinian nuns or? Oh, yes. So sorry. So she, she didn't want to join the Augustinians because they were too strict. Okay. She thought.

Yeah. So she ended up going to the Carmelite. Okay. Thank you. You may have said that and I missed it. Sorry. Continue. So, um, so she was in the incarnation, which is this big monastery, you know, 180 nuns.

Um, and you know, they lived the Carmelite life, but they also had a lot of struggles. They had a lot of poverty. They didn't always have enough to eat. There was like a class system too. Like some of the poor nuns, they lived in dormitories. The richer nuns had their own cells and sometimes dogs and things. Yeah, maids, was it? Did I read that?

Or maybe, maybe I'm making that up. No, that's true. Yeah. Some of the richer nuns had like servants and That's wild. So wild, yeah. You got to have that, to have that class system within a convent. Yes.

Well, in some ways, reading about it gives me hope because it's like, you just see how society entered the church in a way, like the worldly mentality could still... And there was a good convent, and there was a lot of fervor there, so it wasn't like it was this Babylon totally pagan or something. No, it was a good convent, but you can see how the worldliness worked its way in. And so I think when we see that in the church and how sometimes, yeah, like it's like, all right, well, it's always sort of been this way. Yeah, we've been here before, you know, but, um, but that was part of though her discontent with the monastery, I think was, it was like, it just wasn't conducive to the contemplative life that she was starting to feel

drawn to. And, um, and for her, she needed to have God do something to intervene for her to be able to solve this tension, this conflict in her, of the world, so to speak, and God, even in the convent. And so that led to this kind of very dramatic moment in 15, I think it was 56, where one Lent she had this image of the wounded Christ in her cell, and she just fell in front of it and said, like, I will not get up until you change me. You know? And he did, you know? And she started receiving these mystical graces where it was like, what I can't do, like God

just did. And he saved her. And she knew that. It was like, I couldn't do it. I tried so hard, but then he just poured his graces on her and poured this like this sense of love, his closeness, his presence was just always with her. And that from that, she was able to finally

kind of like get over this, not that she never had tensions anymore, but it didn't have to control her, I guess anymore. And so she was able to like move beyond some of that. OK, and so how does she make the decision to reform the Carmelites? How does she meet John? Yeah. Well, it was never her intention. You know, that's the that's the kind of cool thing with St.

Teresa's like she didn't think like, I'm I'm now going to do this. Like, you know, I've I've made it. I see the truth. Now I'm gonna, like, change this order." It was like, she was getting these graces, she was living a much better life, she was helping a lot of people too, you know, all these other nuns would come talk to her and she would teach them about prayer, and she was happy.

She was like, I have my cell, I'm happy in my cell, I can pray, I have my friends. But then there was this group of people that would come together for prayer and just to hang out. And she, at some point, they were talking about, why can't we do what our first fathers did? You know, those original hermits on Mount Carmel, why can't we do that? And it was one of these questions, just like, why not? Why not? And at first she was like, no, I can't do that. Like I, I don't have what it takes. But then in prayer, the Lord said, like, do everything you can to make this project work. So in spite of herself, she, like, planned all these things.

She had to, like, kind of go around a lot of obedience in a way. She never was disobedient, but she had to, like, really kind of, you know, work her way through. Yeah, skirt the line. Yep. Yep. So and and So and it all worked out. Like she was able to found this new convent of San Jose where they lived kind of according to what she had experienced basically. You know, I don't mean to turn the spotlight away from the Carmelites to the Franciscans, but it does remind me of Groschel and those other men who were like, we could go back

to the way things were at least at some point within the Franciscan tradition and live that way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, Iiscan tradition, and live that way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know too much of that story. So that was kind of, they were Capuchin originally, right? Yeah. Yeah, they were Capuchins and I think there was six or eight or thereabouts led by Father

Benedict. And I think he got permission to found this order, you know, but just this desire to live amidst the poor, to sleep on the ground without mattresses, to wear the habit, you know, when the habit with people were getting rid of the habit and things like that. I mean, this was back in the, when was that the eighties? So that was kind of revolutionary within the church right then as it runs like call, call me Jim instead of Father Jim or something. And so that's beautiful to see something similar like that.

Yeah. Exactly. And every age has their struggles like that, you know, with a need for reform. And then of course what happens is I'm sure you've got people who are left behind who are looking at the new people on the block going, you think you're better than me? Yes, exactly.

So I'm sure that's what happened with Teresa. Yeah, and you got it. Like that's the source of so much of that angst that was created and like St. John the Cross eventually going to jail, you know? It's because, you know, people saw her as like, what are you doing? First of all, too, you're a woman, you know?

It's like who you think you are, like to start this new thing. And even just like with the town, the town just like raised against her. Like, she's like, we have all these convents, they need food, and we don't have enough. And how are you going to do this? And like start this new thing that we're going to all of a sudden have to feed all these other nuns. And so she had a lot against her. A lot of people were, you know, striving to make sure this thing didn't work. But she just kept being faithful. You know, she knew God was

calling her to do it. And she and again, he was pouring his mystical graces, like he just, he was confirming it constantly, like this is a good path, this is a good way, and the sisters there were progressing a lot in the spiritual life, and it got to a point where the general of all the Carmelites came, and he was doing visitations in Spain of like the different convents, and there was a lot of abuses, like just a lot of not great things going on on and certain of like the monasteries, especially the friaries and He he makes to Avalos So he's frustrated in a lot of ways by what he sees and he wants reform But he doesn't quite know how to do it and the things he did try to do

They just like he leaves and then they just go right back, you know And he meets Teresa and she was really nervous that he was gonna get mad at her and say like, you know no more But he was so impressed by her and he was like this is what I this is what I've always wanted and like You're the only one like you you've brought it back to what it was, you know, and and so he gave her this like, you know Unprecedented permission. He said go found as many comments as you have hairs on your head Wow, so and for her that was like total vindication. Wow. You know?

Now, as opposed to the giant monastery she was originally in, my understanding is that she had a specific number of sisters that she wanted to live in each convent. Is that right? Yep, that's right. Yeah, because she thought one of the problems of the incarnation was there's too many sisters, you know, so you could get lost in the mix. It was hard to like live as much of an intentional life. And even just like fellowship, like you end up having cl sisters, you know, so you could get lost in the mix. It was hard to like live as much of an intentional life. And even just like fellowship,

like you end up having cliques, you know, you have all these, like you have to find like a little group of friends that you just sort of hang out with and it can create divisions and stuff. So she thought 13, you know, for Christ and the apostles. Ah, really? Okay. That was her original idea. As time went on, she had to be a little flexible

because like all these girls wanted to join. So it ended up becoming 21. But 21 was the absolute cutoff. But that's it. I don't know. So is that what it is today? That is still, yeah, that is still. That's beautiful.

Big shout out to the, not that they'll ever watch this, but the Carmelite Sisters in Jacksonville, a little bit away from where I live in Florida. My wife and I recently donated some money to them and we would just highly encourage that people support them, the beautiful sisters who are doing wonderful work there. Maybe if I chose, maybe you can remind me and I'll put a link to them in the description.

Nice, that's awesome to hear though. And it shows too, that legacy, you know how it keeps going. That's a very lively convent from whatever. Is that right? Yeah, there's a lot of new vocations and yeah, so But yeah, so it she founds these convents She goes to Medina del Campo where she meets down to the cross because one of the other things she asked the generals You're like if we have these sisters We really need friars, you know, because we need people to help the sisters basically. So at this point, did she think of her sisters as somehow distinct and like canonically separate

from the previous sisters? No, not it was all under the order, you know, it was all considered, but she, I see, but she wanted to have friars who would help, you know, lead the renewal among the men. Yes, exactly. Because even in other orders too, you had like the Franciscans they had like these reforms like they were called the Discouse Franciscans Yeah, so st. Peter de Alcantara. He was he was the founder of the Discouse Franciscans And he met Teresa and he helped her a lot. Actually. He like he really was He basically when whenever your bones against her he was like he said apart from the scriptures and the tradition of the church There's nothing more certain that the Holy Spirit is present as this woman right here.

Wow. So, wasn't her spiritual father a Franciscan? Yeah, so he was definitely there as a Franciscan. Saint Francis Borgia was a Jesuit who also helped her a lot at the beginning. It was really all Dominicans helped her. So she kind of- Dominican is what I meant to say, not Francisc beginning. It was really all Dominicans helped her. So she kind of- Mason- Dominican is what I meant to say, not Franciscan. Okay. But it was a, it was a team effort. Cain- It really was. She, she kind of, she had a lot of spiritual fathers, kind of amazing. And really she was just so open to like whatever was good. And she knew she needed, like she

always wanted like learned opinion, you know, she wanted, she wanted to have that, that like, yeah, just to, just to know she was solidly grounded in the church, you know, and in the faith. And so, yeah, so she, I think, carm like spirituality in a lot of ways, too. It's like, it's not really like a pose that it kind of synthesizes in a lot of ways, other currents. And it helps. Yeah, you could just say like, it kind of helps like universalize in a way, a lot of different kind of spirituality, maybe. Yeah. How does it do that? What's that? No's a good question. What's that?

No, I hope that wasn't a loaded statement because of- No, no, I don't know if it was, I just, I want to know what you mean by it. Yes, well, if you look at with karma, it kind of starts where like, it's not about a lot of methods, right?

So you have different like methods in certain spiritual schools of like meditation and Lectio Divina or imaginative prayer, and those are all good and they kind of help you. But karma is kind of like whatever helps you get to this point where you're just able to be kind of simple and receptive of what God wants to pour into your life in prayer. And so all of those ways of the other groups kind of helped to get to that, you know?

It's sort of like you correct me if I'm wrong here, but is it so the idea like, yeah, sure, that's fine. Bring that if you need it. That's good to whatever doesn't matter. The point is surrender to the good God and whatever brings you to that point. Exactly. Yeah. You put it much better.

No, I don't. All right. Cool. So how did it so to do? I mean, unless I'm moving us along too quickly, who is St. John on the cross? Oh, yeah. So St. John, he was just this young friar. He is it. And not to go into his whole biography, but he grew up so different from Teresa. Teresa was like wealthy. She was socialite, you know, all these things. He grew up super poor. His his father died when he was a kid. And his father actually was like of the higher class,

but he fell in love with his mom who was the lowest class. She was a servant girl, like an inn. But he was so taken by her beauty, by her goodness, her holiness, that he and his relatives disowned him. So John's father was disowned by all his parents, his uncles and stuff, because he married lower, you know, and really low. And so he lost everything. So it's kind of beautiful because it like, you can see that romantic nature in John too.

It's like, give up everything, you know, for the love for the beloved. And so his dad was poor. He started being a weaver like his mom and he died, you know, from whatever disease. And the kids had nothing, you know, and the mom was going around. They call it the hunger pilgrimage to some of the old, like his relatives to try to see, can you help us out? But the relatives closed the door, you know, they wouldn't help because she was the lower class. And so John grew up with that kind of poverty, but because of a couple like really instrumental people who took favor on him, he was brought into a school.

He was educated and he was super smart. So they like, so they like kept him going and he helped out, he worked in a hospital to like make money and it was a hospital for syphilis back then. So he was just like, he saw a lot early on, let's say. Imagine 16th century hospital, what that would have looked like and all that he went through. So he knew human fragility and he knew, yeah, so again, it's like he was very human, I guess, like Teresa, but great poverty. But he did so well in school

that they actually offered him to be the chaplain of the hospital, which was like a high position. The Jesuits wanted him to because they were new and he went to a Jesuit school. But he, for different reasons, he decided to become a Carmelite, even though Carmelites weren't like the most splendid of the orders, and they were struggling. As I said, there was this tension. They had gone down a bit. But he loved Our Lady, so it was Our Lady's order,

and that aromidical ideal. He wanted that alone with God, God alone is my everything. So he wanted to join the Carmelites. But early on on he felt some dissatisfaction too. And they say he wanted to be a Carthusian. So he was planning on leaving actually to be a Carthusian. And that's right when St. Teresa met him. So he had this idea, I'm going to go be a Carthusian so I can follow this call of God in my life. And Teresa said, don't do that. You know,. You can have all that you want within Carmel

and just help with this new thing that I'm doing that she got permission to start these comments of friars too. So he joined ranks with her and they started, they started this common project of the reform of Carmel. And he kind of was the head of the male part, even though it came from her still, but he was like her kind of vicar in a way of starting the male branch of the Disc House Carmelites.

So since the general was so pleased with Teresa, presumably John had his blessing as well? Yeah, well, it's really the men. The men caused all the problems because Teresa was told you could only found two friaries, right? Because the general was afraid that like, it could lead to division, the men. He wasn't afraid of the women.

Oh, I see. So with the hairs on the head, it had to do with convents, but only two friaries that can follow a strict rule for the men. Exactly, exactly. And so John was totally innocent in this, like he started, he started Holy Muddish Project.

He was in, they started this first little convent called Durello or monastery and but early on too it started growing a lot and so more people wanted to join and because of the intervention of very powerful people even like the King the general allowed a couple more foundations but then all this political stuff happened, questions about jurisdiction. This cardinal gave power to a friar to like found as many convents as he wanted basically. Even though, so this cardinal had power from the pope,

but the general didn't believe that and didn't agree with that. So it was this like crazy combination of like discord and not knowing where he really, where jurisdiction was. So anyway, so they ended up founding all these new convents against the general's wishes discord and not knowing really where jurisdiction was. So anyway, so they ended up founding all these new convents against the general's wishes because they thought they could basically.

They thought they could and they really could, but it didn't go well. And that's where like all the fights started, you know, and poor John was in the middle of this, you know, he was just a holy man. He was like the novice master, the formator, but he was eventually arrested for being disobedient. By his order.

By his order. I don't even know what that means, right? Today, it doesn't make sense to me. It's so different, you know, with separation church and state and everything is so different. Right. It's like, but back then it was like, yeah,

if you were a friar, let's say, and you ran away from the convent, like the civil authorities would would bring you back. That's kinda cool. You know? So. All right. Yeah, so.

So then he was imprisoned? Yes. In basically the size of a cupboard? Yes, yeah. Is that right? They took him, yeah, they took him to Toledo, and he was in their monastery, big Carmelite monastery there.

And they put him in, it was basically like superiors or other, like let's say a bishop visited, they would have like a guest suite. And one of the rooms was kind of like a bathroom, whatever bathrooms looked like back then. And he was put in that. So this like little cell that was meant really just to be a bathroom.

And he was there for nine months because he wouldn't give in. What? Nine months in a bathroom. So, there was an actual toilet in this bathroom so he could live there and they would give him his food. Is that how it worked? Yeah, with the toilet thing, I don't, they must have had just like a bucket or something, but they didn't let him change his habit one time or clothes. He didn't wash, get washed

one time. They would give him some bread, you know, and some sardines maybe, but like, you know, it was, it was terrible conditions, terrible. And like, they wanted him to give in. All they wanted to do is say like, okay, I'll go back to the, because they saw that they thought he was being disobedient. To the general. To the general. And he was saying, no, like we have permission to do this and I'm not going to go against St. Teresa, you know. So at, I mean, nine months is a lot of time. Did someone not try to get the general

and the pope in a room or on a text thread or something? That's right. Well, it's funny to say that because St. Teresa, she went out of her way. She wrote the king. She wrote so many letters, like no one cares about John. She was saying that, like, why isn't anyone doing anything? Like he was just, he was totally forgotten, you know?

Wow. But that's how it goes. And in a way, he used that time like we talked about the dark night you know like he experienced whatever it took him to get to that point of like Total surrender and union with God like it was through Yeah, those nine months really makes Thomas's house arrest in a castle look pretty easy cushy doesn't it? in a castle look pretty easy, cushy, doesn't it? You know, like, that's unreal. Yeah, and did he have any writing instruments or did he,

I know he wrote some of his poetry during that time. Maybe he just memorized it or? Exactly, he memorized it. So well, towards the end, there was a more sympathetic guard and he gave him some like pen and paper. And so he would write stuff down, but it's really neat because everyone thinks like, well, the dark night, that poem would have been written in the prison.

Um, but he didn't write that in the prison. He wrote that after what he wrote in the prison was there was a couple of them, but one of the main ones was the spiritual canticle. Okay. Which if you ever read it, it's like the most beautiful, like love poem. And it's, it's basically the song of songs in a way. I love it. Right? Yeah. It's basically the song of songs in a way. I love it. Right?

Yeah. And all this images too of like open fields, water, like animals, like young love and all these things. And so he's writing that in this like nasty little bathroom where he's sick and stinky and just struggling, you know? But that's how God was working in him. He was able to like just go to the beauty of God, you know, regardless.

And so that poem, I think, carries even more weight, in a sense, because it came through just like abject suffering. Wow. So I mean, how would you, because it is kind of sometimes confusing for people why the church does have all these different orders. And in one sense, they all seem very similar, but obviously, there's distinctions that are distinct enough to necessitate that they remain divided. So you know, like when I think of the Dominicans, I would think, you know, of the intellect, I guess, you know, when I think of the Franciscans, I think of the poverty.

When you, when I think of Carmelites, I think of union with God. Now, okay, so but what's tough, maybe it's just the emphasis because it's not like the Dominicans aren't down with union with God. And it's not that the Carmelites aren't down with the intellect or poverty. How would you talk about these distinctions? Yeah, you said it so well actually,

because it's like emphasis and it's putting, we could say like the charism, every order kind of has this specific charism from their founder that helps them live the gospel in a unique way and representing the life of Christ in a unique way. And so I think union of God would be that focus, intimacy, union, the experience of God.

Like we all, like everyone wants that, but like we kind of put all of our bread and butter on that. Like that's, and we could say there's an immediacy to it too. Where people say, yeah, I want to be united with God and hopefully in heaven. It's like, I think the Carmelite sort of instinct is to say like right now, I don't want to waste any time. I don't want to like, and John is like, go up the mountain. Like there's all these other ways you can get up there, like wanting and what. Nada, nada.

Yep. Wow. Just go right for it right now. Like, why wait? You know, and I think that's part of the car. My legs is almost an impatience for union. Mm hmm. Thank you. That's beautiful.

Yeah. So then did the convents. So once John is how did John get let out? Yeah, he it's funny because he eventually escaped. You know, he realized he had gotten dysentery and you don't imagine how bad it is like. And he knew he was going to die. You know, he was so skinny, small, he was a small guy, too. He was like, I think he was like five foot two or five or one or so. So little guy, you know, and, you know, not eating much with dysentery.

He's like, I'm going to die. And he actually had asked the prior if he could say mass for the assumption, because he wasn't allowed to say mass either, or read anything, all he had was a little bravery. And the prior said, yeah, when you finally stop being disobedient, we'll let you say mass. And John was like, all right, I'm gonna die. So he, and part of the tradition is that

Our Lady appeared to him and showed him how to get out of the jail You know now some way to say that you know I'm all about it I like that more it's got it and it makes it easy to wait to be like that great But but either way he like figured out how to and I think of like Shawshank Redemption He like waited till the guard was asleep, and I think there was like a storm going out So you maybe I'm just getting the movie confused but he like he like bang the door you know in the moment yeah where the way so he was able

to bang open the door without waking the guard and then he there's this whole thing he was like take took sheets you know and was able to get down this window but he didn't calculate it right so he was he is hanging out the window and he was really like 20 feet from the ground Oh, and he's this little guy to dissent areas He's like shoot and then he just lands it just like I don't even know if he lets go But all of a sudden he says he just found himself on the ground He was fine, but then he realized and this is part of the car like too

We can be kind of spacey and maybe you know this comes somewhat from st John the cross in the sense that he didn't realize either that where he was going into was actually a convent next door of nuns, conceptionist nuns. So he landed right in their courtyard in the middle of the night. So it's like a cloister, you know? He just went to another cloister. And so if any nun sees this, they're gonna scream, you know?

And so what happens, he sees that this little dog, this like, or like, yeah, little stray dog runs up to a point in the gate And so he goes up to that point and he sees there's a way out So he like climbs up and it so it's just Providence You know that like because he was actually about ready to scream himself because he's like there's nothing else I can do So I can't I have to just like go back to jail, but he sees a little dog He gets out he gets out of the convent

He's on the street and then he makes his way to there'sounts Carmelite Nuns in Toledo that had recently been founded. So he stops by there and they don't believe him, you know, so he knocks on the door and he must look like death. Exactly. You know, with this nasty habit. Yeah, and just so yeah and so sick and um, and the sister's like what is going on? And he's like, listen, I'm fray john of the cross, you know, I i'm friends with sister's like, what is going on? And he's like, listen, I'm afraid John of the cross, you know, I, I'm friends with St. Teresa or St. Mother Teresa. Uh, and please, can I stay with you? And they let him in, you know, they let him in. And not long after that, they've realized in the Okarm convent that he had escaped. And so they went immediately to the, to the nuns. And the story is the sister at the turn, they were like, is there,

um, a friar is, is, oh, is John of the cross in there? And the, the sister sister at the turn, they were like, is there a friar? Is John of the Cross in there? And the sister's behind, there's like a turn, so they can't see the sister, you just hear her. And apparently to avoid lying, she looked into her sleeve and she was like, there's no friar in here. And then they were like, okay, so then they left. So that's the tradition.

I don't know how rooted that is in history, but that's what I've heard in Spain. That's how she avoided it. And so then, yeah, so then John was, he was escaped. He was in that convent. They didn't know where he was. He was kind of nursed back to health. And then he made it back to Castile, to Avila.

And by that point, things had calmed down anyways. And so he was, he was all right. So. Wow. It'd be pretty brutal, hey? Imagine if your brothers did that to you be hard to forgive him I know so at this point are they called the discoused Carmelites. Hmm. Yeah, yes, they they well they were St. Teresa called them discouts Carmelites, but the general actually wanted the friar to be called contemplative Carmelites he was afraid the discous thing again might like cause this sort of division. And so but but more or less they were called the discouse Carmelites and even the friars eventually

were just called discouse Carmelites like pretty shortly after. So so yeah they were a sort of firm in their identity. So they kind of thought of us like the seals to the regular Navy or what was did people look at them as the hardcore Carmelites? I think so. I mean I think that's sort of what it was. People were really attracted to them. Gee, you know, what a way to then look over the fence at the Carmelites you've broken away from us in a way, and to realize that you're slowly either they're becoming hardcore or you're becoming lax.

But then to look at them and go, we're not much different. That must be be in a way not to speak poorly of our beautiful other Carmelites who we love and who are faithful and good and all that. But I imagine like looking at them and going, how are we different? And if we're not, like what did Teresa do this for? Yes, yes. Does that make sense? Definitely, definitely. And I think that's, and that's part of like, even for her, like she never saw herself as like,

trying to just like go against anything, you know, or like saying that they're bad. Cause she would even say like, there's 40 nuns in the incarnation that I could use to, you know, to start new foundations. And she did like all these nuns from there would help, you know, start new foundations. So there was a sense like, no,

there was always some of this fervor there and it didn't have to be so divided, you know, but it just kind of became that way. It did like, because, and like you said, it's just, there's a sense of like an inferiority complex perhaps too. It's like, well, if we're not, yeah, if we're not the hardcore ones, then who are we?

You know, if these guys are really living it, then like, what are we doing? And it didn't mean to be that way, but I think it did kind of happen, you know? But suffice to say, like, it's interesting that the old carms have always kind of kept going, even in Spain, even though like the disc house like took over in so many ways. But the original Carmelite still, you know,

and we're very close, you know, we share the same family, same spirituality, but of course there's those little. But we hate them. Is that habit different? It is a little different. It's a little different. So this one. So I noticed you're wearing shoes, which upset me. No, no, I got sandals. Oh, is that what that means? I've been discussed me without shoes. Oh, I see. I see. Yes, you're right. No, you did your homework. I'm glad you said

no one knows a discount means. But yeah, I mean, shoeless. And actually, it's funny. John originally didn't have shoes when he started and Teresa made him wear shoes Made him wear sandals. So we want to be faithful to Teresa So then do y'all try to make it make You wear sandals. Is that the thing? Yeah. I mean that's part of it I think again kind of like the emphasis on like union with God like some of those even those secondary things like yeah We don't always like you'll see fries people wear shoes You know, but it's like become distractions. Yeah, it can be again, but but I but it's still there's something for there's a symbolism

Yeah, and it's just easier to in a lot of ways But but then they have it like so Teresa cut this so she the original was kind of like the Dominicans, right? It's real long, you know, yes and Teresa. So this is kind of a relic of trees in a way she just like cut it, you know, just the be less material made the scapula shorter and And just gave it and gave it to John your scapula shorter than the outcomes. Yes. Yes. It's got it's a little shorter It's supposed to be first of all Can we just pause and just reflect upon the fact that there is enough of a can weird? Contingent of human beings that will actually be interested in this conversation in that wild

Like there's gonna be thousands of people who watch this, who are interested. How weird are we all? But I am. I'm fascinated by this. So how long is your scapular compared to the O'Koms? Our scapular is it's supposed to be three fingers. This is the real gets in the nitty gritty, man. Supposed to be three fingers different. So like that, like. So that's in the original Constitution.

So it's really like three fingers above the ground. Whereas thepular of the oak arms just goes like straight down to the to the edge of the interesting but just say that says a lot about you that you would bring this on and you know open this up to all the people who know and love you and fascinated so this is awesome it's neat oh i see well that makes sense because i do think I've seen Carmelites and they have the much longer Capuch or whatever that is. Yeah, yeah, Capuchin. I'm cowl cowl. You're right. Yeah, you're right. But yeah, that's true. That's neat. Yeah. And then it's interesting. Like, I don't know, I guess I haven't really thought about this, but I can't think of another religious order that has been made famous by three women. You know, the Blessed Virgin. Well, since Teresa Benedict of the Cross, is that her name?

Is that who you say? Yeah, definitely. But of course, Terez and Teresa. It's kind of wild, like, is there another like the Dominicans? You got Thomas Francis, Francis, because you got Bonaventure and Francis and others who are escaping my mind. But yeah, totally. That's caramelized. It's like the women. Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. But then they caramelized it's like the women. We really are.

I mean, again, it's like that prior general who thought to start the women's order, that's like saved us. I mean, then it's brought such tremendous spiritual doctrine to the church, right? I mean, of these mystics that we've had. And the women kind of do in a way, they carry it. It's amazing.

You think even our publisher, ICS Publications, we print the story of a soul and we kind of had, we had the original rights to like the whole manuscript, right, so that's kind of what makes us unique in the version that we give of story of a soul. And it finances like all of the other books that we publish. You know, like, Therese carries like our whole publication.

So you have the right to it in English. Yes. whole publication. So you have the right to it in English? Yes. Or multiple languages? We have the right to it in English, and I wonder, yeah, I'd be curious if we could do it in another language, like Spanish perhaps. Do you want to just pull on that forward just a little bit? Sure, I'm sorry, yeah. Yeah, you're fine.

And I can. Yeah, wow. And not to say, like, Ascension uses our version now. They just came out with one. Word on Fire also uses our version now, too. So it's kind of neat. Other publishers are using, but it's the only of the three authentic manuscripts of Therese that are unedited and just put out there in English. But it's again but showing how the women kind of carry it. Therese is carrying it. All the vocations too. So many people that come to Carmel,. Tereza, St. Teresa, you know

St. Elizabeth Trinity, you know, of course st. John the cross too, but he's kind of like our one main Kind of male saint, you know, but yeah, yeah, but but yeah the women have done tremendous like in terms of Bringing like the riches of Carmel into the church, you know and becoming doctors of the church even I did an eight-day silent retreat a couple of years back and I read in Torea Castle. Here's what I got from it. And you know the book way better than me, obviously. So what I got from it is be humble, go to heaven, don't go to hell. Did you get that? It's the emphasis on humility, everything in that book. Yeah, that's awesome, actually, you know, because we need those little like, like, syntheses. And with Teresa, she can get so bog bogged down like people get so caught up in like yeah

Like all the different stages and like where am I? Oh, yeah, you know, oh, yeah No, I didn't even bother us that question. It was too depressing Yeah, that's the carmellite way though. I'm in the foyer with snakes come out of my pan like yeah That is that's I think that's the more carmelite approach though. It's not about where you're at, it's not about trying to figure it out. It's just trying to see that core message. And humility for her is the foundation of everything. Just knowing who you are in God and that we're not hollow inside. That's how she starts. We have this incredible gift, we have this incredible dignity because of that too, because we're not alone, we're not hollow.

God himself dwells in us. And the whole kind of like, yeah, the way to go to the seventh mansion, it's not like you're going higher, higher, higher. It's more like you're just going deeper into what you already have. And just like letting all those things fall away that just kind of keep you on the surface,

like pride, vanity, all the different, seven deadly sins, whatever, that just kind of keep this treasure hidden that you already have, that you can always be with, and you can find all your happiness all the time there. And so yeah, so that's the path, like humility. And then you won't have to ever worry about hell if you have that.

It's like It's such a weird It's such a difficult virtue to cultivate in that it's As soon as you notice you're cultivating it you've stopped that kind of thing. Yeah. Yes, I There's been times like I'll go to confession and I'll be pleased that I don't have to confess this one sin, you know? So I'll take pride in saying it's been five weeks since my last confession, you know? And then I get out of confession, like, oh my gosh, that was, I said that so I would look good. What the hell is wrong with me?

And then I'll share that story publicly. And maybe that's supposed to make me look humble. It's like an onion. I can't get away. And the times I think I've done something that, yeah, it's wild, isn't it? Yeah, well I think with the beauty of humility too, the one person who said, you know,

it's interesting, St. Therese at the end of her life, in the last conversation, she was like, yes, I think I am humble. I've learned humility of heart. Wow. You know, so someone can say that and really, it's true. You know, she wasn't saying in a prideful way, but it's just the truth.

St. Teresa, it's very helpful the way she describes humility because she says, it's walking in the truth. So it's not like thinking bad about yourself or like even having to say like, oh, I don't want someone to know this about me or this, this and that. Like it's just walking the truth of who you are. So it's like, I'm so poor in front of God.

And like, and even if I do try to avoid saying certain things cause I don't want me to look bad, like I can just accept that. You know what I mean? It's like the onion can be reversed in a way. Cause it's like, all right, well I can just accept that as my poverty. And I can just, and even if I want to like show I'm poor

so I can look good, I can even accept that. You know, it's like, so you can keep going deeper in a way. It's just knowing who you are. It's just like I'm just totally nothing without God. And I'm just empty hands. I think Francis de Sales said it well. He talked about how it's a sign of pride to become shocked at falling so low. I think that's a good way to do it.

You know, like when you fall into serious sin, are you devastated? Are you like, yeah, well, that sounds like me. God have mercy on me a sinner. Right, right. And that's such a more healthy way too. Like just even with your own peace and your own ability to get back up, you know,

how many times like if we're so shocked at ourselves and so devastated, then it's like, it's so much easier to like just stay down. Yeah. Like, why might as well just like keep doing this or not worrying about it and because you're just like destroyed But if you can just take it in peace like that Then you can move forward Men, do you feel stuck in old idols or burdened by the pharaohs of our time? Do you know that you're capable of so much more than you're giving

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leave our pharaohs and idols behind to journey to uncommon freedom in Jesus Christ. Join the men of Exodus 90 and Father Boniface Hicks, Benedictine monk and renowned spiritual director, who is the spiritual guide for Exodus 90 this year. We will establish daily habits of prayer, discipline, and brotherhood as we journey to greater freedom in Jesus Christ. So go to Exodus90.com slash Matt to learn more about Exodus 90. That's Exodus90.com slash Matt to join tens of thousands of men from all around the world for Exodus 90, starting Monday, January 20th and leading up to Easter Sunday. I guess Teresa, we were talking about this before the show.

I love to raise. I, it took me a while to appreciate her. Like it does many men, I think. Um, I heard, I think it was Patrick Coffin who once said she shouldn't be called the little Rose, but the iron will. It's quite deceptive. You know, she's a, she's a, she's a hero. Uh, but, um, you know, I remember reading story of a Soul and just being like, like French

girl who likes bonbons, I can't do this, you know. But then I found other avenues into her and I'm like, this woman's incredible. So I want to get to Therese, but I want to maybe begin with Theresa and John, because I think a lot of, there are a lot of Catholics who begin to take their prayer life seriously and they want to be into Teresa and John, but find it difficult, either because John seems too complicated or I can tell he's trying to be inspirational maybe, or is that what I'm supposed to be finding in him? I don't enjoy him. And then Teresa seems stern sometimes. And I'd rather just go hang out with Therese. She seems like she gets me more. So how is maybe you as a friar, how have you gotten to know these different saints

and appreciated them for different reasons? Yeah, well, I think I came pretty similar to you. Like I first started with Therese and someone gave it to me on my birthday. When I, yeah, early on I was like, I was just turning 20, I just had my conversion. And I was like, what is this? You know, I, it just didn't seem, yeah, there was nothing appealing. I was like, what is this?

It just didn't seem, yeah, there was nothing appealing. I was reading the Desert Fathers at that time and these guys are hardcore, what is this? But then reading her, I just connected with her. I just felt like, no, her experience is so real and what she talks about, her relationship with God, I want that, I want that. And she makes it seem very doable too, it's possible.

You just have to believe, trust, you can have and she makes it seem very doable too. Like it's possible. You just have to believe trust You know, you can have it you can have it and And so I was really reading her that like yeah help me kind of in so many ways overcome stuff The confidence even say like maybe I could be a priest, you know Maybe God's actually calling me be a priest and and and if I can have that spirit, maybe I could do it So she was the avenue for me to like and, and opening, it opened up so many doors to read Therese. But same thing, like I first read Therese

and I don't, I just didn't identify her with that much, you know, like the Way of Perfection I read. Although for me, it's always reading about them first, like their biography, you know, when you get to know them. And like even the stuff we're talking about with like John, like knowing that about his background and like how compassionate he was on the sick and like how he was, he's not all,

he's not just like this rigorous guy that's like, you know, you have to like just give up everything and like never enjoy life at all. And that's the only way or something like that. It's so not him, but you can get that impression sometimes if you go right to his writings, you know, or what people say about him. But when you get to know him as a person, it's like,

oh man, so that opened up a lot. And like Teresa too, like reading her autobiography, I think is a good place to start because she talks about like her own struggles, you know, and Avila. What's her autobiography called again? It's just called The Life, The Life of St. Teresa. Okay. So it's a volume one in the collected works, you know, and it's yeah, just the life and it's kind of, it's like autobiographical but also a lot of it's just like her graces and like way of praying so she always uses it kind of to talk about prayer and stuff but it's a little more like what she went through and

the difficulty she had and like how she herself, she just knew that she was totally, all she was was the mercy of God, like I only exist, I only can live this way because of God's mercy. And that helps too, because like we can all get there, I feel like, you know, we can all get to that sense of like, I just need the mercy of God. And yeah, so I think coming to know them and their struggles opens it up a bit to say like,

okay, then I can read their writings and have a different lens maybe. That makes sense. You know? Would you recommend a particular book to get to know either Teresa or John or both? Yeah. If people want to get their feet wet? Yeah for sure. I think um it's great we're actually translating right now this one called The Life and Times of St. Teresa and

that'll be out it'll be a while probably before that's out but it's amazing because it goes into that it gives the context for her life it's so helpful but it's not out yet so I'm trying to think of one that's really good. I'm thinking of Fire Within. I think that was the first introduction to the two. That's a great one. Thomas Dubay. Thomas Dubay.

Jesuit, I think. He was actually, he was a Marianist or Society of Mary, I think. SM, whatever SM stands for. But he's awesome. And I think that book has really brought people to know like Carmelite spirituality and to know our saints. So that's a great one to start with. You know what you all need to do?

I'm going to tell you what you need to do. You ready? Because you're a publisher. You're one of the main publishers. You need to make beautiful books. And maybe you have done that and I don't know of it, so you can slap me in a second. But like, I'm looking at like these fellas, the Emmaus Road, right? You know, Emmaus Road and St. Paul's Centre. They've got these ginormous volumes like this, but no one but a nerd is going to read this. So what they've done is they've taken Thomas's

commentary on Romans, say, they've left out the, I think they've left out the Latin. So it's just like this, okay, I can do this. But I think what happens is when you go, I want to read about Teresa, like volume one, and it's kind of an ugly book and you're like, I'm not gonna. Yes. So I would like you guys to start creating beautiful books. Ribbon, I'd be okay with the ribbon. You know, I appreciate you saying that.

Maybe smaller volumes too, like here's, you know. Yes, because if you just have, yeah, the Collector Works of John LaCrosse, it's huge. You know, and it's kind of intimidating. But if you had like the Ascent of Mount Carmel, the Dark Knight and like separate. Yeah, beautiful little books that seem like even someone as wretched as I am could get through this.

You know? Well, this is good for Father Pierre Georgiou who's our managing editor. Yeah, I Mark Foley too. He would be a good one to convince about that because he's the general editor. So yeah, but I agree that would be a great way to move forward. And I think we can, especially like St. Therese, like we've seen like Ascension put out this nice edition, you know, so yeah, and it's so they're out there of what? Of story of a soul. Okay. Yeah, and and they're out there and we can keep yeah, we should go that route I totally agree with that. I mean it definitely takes a lot of money doesn't to make things beautiful

Sure, but imagine if you sold him and he sold a scapula with every one of them that you guys made that's that's funny You say that? Let's see, what is it called Ascension Press I guess yes, I see what they've done Catholic classics father Mike's beautiful face looking at me here story of So God bless and they're doing some really good work. I know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's lovely. It's got the ribbon I see I like a bit of a ribbon Catholic classics They're doing some really good work on that. Oh yeah, yeah, that's lovely. And it's got the ribbon.

I see, I like a bit of a ribbon. Catholic classics. Cause that's not in the public domain, y'all own it, yeah? Yeah, we own the rights. We do, we own the rights to that translation. Oh, there you are. There's a video of you talking about it. Oh no, don't need to see that.

She is so beautiful, Therese of Lisieux. Oh, that photo of her dressed as Joan of Arc. What a beautiful woman. Yeah, I know, right? It's it's it's somewhat unique to that. We have all those pictures of her, you know, so you can see that it's like, well, this is something I always say that I wonder as as we like, it's easy to look like a saint when all we have from you is like one page that you wrote and a bunch of apocryphal stories.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're necessarily false, but sometimes, you know, you look back. when all we have from you is like one page that you wrote and a bunch of apocryphal stories. I'm not saying they're necessarily false, but sometimes you look back, I think Dominic, I think we have like one page of Dominic or something. But it starts to get harder when we know way more about you, much less like imagine saints with Twitter accounts. What's that gonna be like? I know that'll be like one of the collected works volumes.

Oh. It's like all the tweets. Well, either either we're going to have to change our understanding slightly of what it means to be a saint or or maybe we'll have no more saints or just a couple, you know, because the more you know about people, the more I don't know. I mean, maybe that's a cope. Maybe that's a cope because I'm so wretched that I'd like to believe that all these saints were as wretched as I am. Yeah, yes. You know, but maybe it's like, no, that's,

no, they're not actually. They were excellent. You're right in thinking you're different, you know? Well, I heard something that gave me a great consolation the other day that it was from one of the guys who worked for the cause of saints in Rome. And he said that really they only look at

like the last five years of a saint's life. I might have time. Exactly. So whatever you wrote or things that came out, even publicly, it's like, no, that was just. Please, that was just me sowing my wildest. Well, see, even that is probably a prideful thing, is to be interested in how others will view you

when you're dead. I read something recently and said, preach the gospel, die and be forgotten. That gave me great, I found great encouragement. Seriously, you can do that. Well, there's a peacefulness there, you know? Yeah. Like, and I think someone like you,

you have such a gift of like presenting and like bringing the faith to all these people. Like how, yeah. The interior martyr that must cause too, in terms of like how to, yeah, kind of stay humble and how to like stay forgotten or poor, you know, in the middle of all that. That's something I work with my spiritual father frequently because you know, I know I'm arrogant and prideful because the critical comments still affect me. Do you know what

I mean? Like I'm not at the point where I can be like, praise the Lord, praise the Lord that the Lord can use my poverty. I'm not there at all. No, we're close. But people can write so many crazy things, you know, like you think of like St. Teresa, she just heard stuff of criticisms of her, but she didn't see like the trolls and like what people are, you know, this dark world out there. Yeah. So, all right. So that's one book fire within. Yes. Another good one that came to mind is this one called Carmelite spirituality in the Theresian tradition. Yeah. It's a little one and it kind of gives like a intro to each of our big saints and like gives the big three or the more that they introduce you to the big really the big three and they touch on something like

because it was written in the fifties. So like some of the stuff like Saint Louis or the Trinity, let's say I hadn't been out or like Sania Stein. She was she it was written in the 50s. So like some of the stuff like Saint Louis or the Trinity, let's say hadn't been out or like St. Augustine, she had just died a few years before. So we don't have as much, but yeah, like the big three and then some of the like the more minor ones it kind of like touches on them. Brother Lawrence of the resurrection. Yes, Brother Lawrence, I forgot he was a Carmelite.

Yes, is that amazing? Yeah. He's like, he was so well known outside of the church too, you know? Everyone loves Brother Lawrence. All these Protestants have read Brother Lawrence. I remember we were at a Sikh conference and this guy came up so excited to see Brother Lawrence because he was like, I was a Baptist and I used to go to these Baptist summer camps and I stayed in Brolaw Cabin. It was all named for Brother Lawrence, he's so well known in a way. And like, no one knows, a lot of people didn't know

he was Catholic, let alone that he was like a friar and a Carmelite, you know? So he really is like, he's one worth getting to know. He's like, he's done so much good. It really has. I think Peter Crave said that was one of his favorite spiritual books. Really?

Yeah, yeah, just the simplicity of brother Lawrence. Yeah, so for those who are watching, what's it called? The book? Practice of the Presence of God. You can find it on YouTube, listen to it. I don't know how long it would take, but it couldn't be more than a couple of hours. Yeah, it's small. It's small. And it's like, and there's so many additions of it too, right? It's, it's, do we know much about him? That's kind of the beauty of it. We don't, you know, we really don't. We know that he was a lay brother who actually he was in the military before during the 40 years war,

one of these big wars of religion after the Reformation. So he was involved in that. And apparently there's some thinking that he might've been involved in some war atrocities too. So like some real dark stuff he got into. And then he had this conversion one day. He was looking at a tree and he saw that it was in the wintertime, it was dead. And then he said, but it's going to come to life again in the spring.

And it was just like, he had this, all of a sudden this overwhelming sense of like God's providence, God's power that sustains something like that in existence and makes it keep coming back to life, you know? And so that sense of like the presence of God that is like always there sustaining reality impacted him so much. And it caused this conversion to just like start trying to live for God alone. And he ended up joining the Carmelites as part of that.

And he struggled a lot. He said that he always thought they were gonna kick him out of the convent. Like he wasn't that good at things. He wasn't, he didn't see himself as that smart. And they made him the cook for a lot. He said that he always thought they were gonna kick him out of the convent. Like he wasn't that good at things. He didn't see himself as that smart. And they made him the cook for a while. They made him like a shoemaker. And yet he became like,

he just had this like spiritual revolution with just like, I can always live in the presence of God. Like I can just do it. And it's hard sometimes. And sometimes he said, even if like, even if you're a soldier, just taking a second and like remembering the presence of God, you know, it'll help get it to its habitual.

And then eventually God takes over. It's like, then you don't even have to remember. It's just like, you're in it. You almost have to try not to remember when you have to do things. So he just kind of gives us this path. It really is possible. And he was very busy.

He was always having to go on trips to buy wine for the convent, all these different things. So it wasn't like he was just in his cell all day. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So we hear about mindfulness, eh? Is recollection the word that the Carmelites use,

and is that the same thing as practicing the presence of God, or if not, what's the difference? I think practicing the presence of God is like a synthesis of like all St. Teresa teaches in prayer. Which is what? Which you said, recollection, which is like being in the presence of the beloved, you know, and being there as much as we can and staying there and letting him love us.

And so it's like it's making that so simple. And I think that so that's maybe the distinction. It's like, it's my, yeah. When you talk about like mindfulness, like being present, right? That presence is big, but with a presence, you know? Yes, present with a presence. I love that. You know?

So yeah, how do you do that? Yeah, that's- It's kind of like asking how, how do you breathe? Like you already know, just do that. But how do you- There is, yeah. I mean, cause we wouldn't have these writings, right? If it was just like so self-evident, right?

That we can do that, you know? I think so much of it is conversion. So much of it is like coming to know that like you are loved and and that. You can totally be open that God has a plan for you. You know, you can be totally open to what he has for you. You don't have to fear anything like it's like growing more into that, that I can, so it's like if I don't have anything I have to hold on to in myself or any like fears that I have to like keep me from holding back and I can just keep letting go of those, the presence of God just starts to take over, you know. So it's really

is like the conversion experience or we call it surrender. It's like the more we surrender, the more we're able to live that way. So that's the hard thing. It's not necessarily like a method or like a mental structure that we can kind of like do. It's like, it's the whole process of like letting go of these things that I know are just like keeping me trapped in my ego or that just like keeping me stuck.

And how best I can do that well then the presence of God you know has his way of taking taking us over. Yeah this is really interesting and forgive me if you've heard me say this before but I keep coming back to it this the difference between letting go and picking things up because in a way picking things up is much easier. Letting things go is very difficult when it feels like dying. I've said before that if the Blessed Mother appeared to me and said, all right, Matthew, here's how you will save your soul. Bible in a year? Good. Yes. Yes, Mother. For the

rest of your life, every day, I want you to listen to Father Mark Schmitz. Yeah, good. Got it. Holy Mass every day is what I need you to do. All right. Like let's say she just lay it on the things, you know. If I knew and I had a list I could do that and I would do that But if she told me go home and do not cause any undue grief to your wife and children I'd be like, oh well, I I can't do that Do you know what I mean? Because it's like that undue grief I cause people around me is due to my own agitation and my refusal to let go and

trust that all will be well. So it's in a way letting go sounds easier, but I mean I don't know ask somebody who's like you know let go from a giant limb on a giant tree into a trampoline or someone will catch you. That's really hard to do actually because I'm so afraid I'm going to things won't be well if I do this. This is all I've got. This branch that you're telling me to let go of. That's literally all I have. Yeah. Yeah. And that is yeah, that's where it comes like the apps, the demand, right? That interior demand. It's like, it's so much more demanding where it counts, I guess you could say to do that, as opposed to like some practice.

Yeah. But even that, and I think we've all experienced that, when we have been able to let go just a little bit, like there's a relief too. Like there, it's like, oh, okay, wow, it really is better to live this way. Like, and even though right away I pick it back up, you know, like, and I go right back for the thing,

but at least I've tasted it. And I think that's big to realize is like, you kind of have to experience the blessedness of being able to do it and then be like, all right, well, I just want to keep doing that. Even though I keep failing and I keep messing up or I keep like bringing back the thing that I thought I let go of.

It's like, no, but I can at least try to stay on this path. And as St. Therese would say, even if you always seem poor and you're humped, and yeah, you always feel like I'm not doing it right or I'm still a burden to these people in my life or I'm still giving them a hard time, you can still trust that no, God is working through me and he will make me let go.

He will make me do this even if I can't do like, so I think that's part of it too is it's like we can never achieve this place of saying like, I have finally done it. Like I finally let go. I'm finally like able just to like, you know, not do this thing or like be a pain or whatever it is. And it's almost like being content with that too. Yeah.

Yeah, I wanna kind of bring a spotlight to what it seems like you're saying again here, because it is really interesting, because I guess in a way the question we're asking is like, how do I be present to the good God who's always present to me? Or how do I grow in holiness? And what you're saying is like, let go. And in a way, doesn't make any sense, because I thought you were going to say, oh, we think that people will say, do these things.

This is really interesting. And yet I can't let go and won't let go unless I can trust that this is a good God and he's not my enemy and he's for me. Yeah. And he desires my salvation and He might even like me, you know, and I therefore I can, I can let go of the things that I try to make life work. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's scarier. It is. It is. And that's,

but it takes like St. Teresa says, like her whole definition of prayer, it's so simple. It's like spending time frequently to be alone with the one we know loves us. So being alone with the one we know loves us. So that's so key, is like knowing he loves us, believing that, but spending that time. And this is what trips us up also, I think we want to let go and we want to like do these things or whatever. But if we don't have the interior Like habit of just like spending time with God quietly in our poverty, you know Whatever is going on in our life just like still being there

It's hard. Yeah, I mean, it's almost impossible to really let that process happen So I think if there's anything we can do to help us let go It's spend time frequently with the one you know loves you alone, you know, quiet and, and let, so that's our way of almost like showing our desire, showing our permission for God to help us let go of these things. And then how do you, I mean, how do you do that? I imagine it's through honesty. It's through a prayer like, I thank you that you're present to me now. And, uh, I wish that I knew that more than I do,

but I acknowledge it at least intellectually. And, uh, yeah, would you help me like, would you help me love you more? I'd like to look, like I just that, you know, we, we talk about these like cycles, things get popular, then they go underground and they become popular again. We see this. I was thinking about this today, how diets or exercise regiments become super popular until they saturate the market. And then we need something that says you've been lied to. Actually, here's why. What are you thinking? Don't know. I'm just, it's, I've never seen it that way.

It's like, like right now everyone's talking to me. Maybe it's just in my world because my wife eats only meat, but wait till carnivore saturates the market, then there'll be a whole new YouTube thing about why here's what you didn't know. And then we'll be, oh, and then we'll have that feeling of enlightenment again and we'll get hooked on a new way of eating and a new way of exercising. It used to be CrossFit, but here's why we were wrong wrong. It's this thing. And we're all so confused. And that isn't to say that we can't make progress in knowledge in particular areas. I think we can and do. Clearly it's better to eat whole foods than to eat, you know, whatever corn, corn syrup, high fructose

corn syrup and trans fats and things like that. But okay, so I think there's something like that that takes place in the Catholic world too, eh? So it's like, you've got Charismatics with their spontaneous prayer and their emotional prayer, and now it feels like we're going through a time where we look at that with great skepticism, or at least contingents within the church do, and so now we're extolling the necessity of regimented, prescripted prayer that were written by saints that you can trust this and this. So it's in a way we've kind of we look skeptically upon that. But I mean, we should.

But we need to pray, honestly. So it's like, OK, so now, OK, so we shouldn't have done that complete. Yes, yes, exactly. And that and it's hard too because how do you avoid that? You know, it's like because it does there seem to be something like almost like natural to that sort of rhythm. But maybe maybe this is where contemplative spirituality can come into because it's like it's always goes to the core and we can we can always do it like it can take different forms, perhaps like other things can lead us there, or different ways that we thought were really good. And then maybe we, like even our own

experience, like I remember when I used to pray the rosary, like I would have these like great imaginative scenes, you know? And it was awesome. I was like, man, I'm really connecting with the Lord in this. And then it's funny, of all things, I watched The Passion of the Christ, my first year of college seminary. And it was so beautiful. I love that movie, right? I mean, I watched it every Good Friday, I tried to. But it kind of ruined my rosary imaginations because the images are so strong, I couldn't think of anything else anymore.

So anytime I try to imagine it, it was just The Passion of the Christ. And it helped me see how secondary some of that stuff is that I thought was like so important, you know, that I like put myself on the scene, like really experience it and feel these things. And then it's like, wait, but because, because I have stronger images, now I can't really do that anymore. And it helped me kind of let go of like, okay,

well, maybe it's not all about this way of doing things, even though that's good and it helps people, but it kind of helped lead me just to like being kind of poor and just sort of being in front of the Lord and trusting that He would give me what I need and perhaps just like being quiet with Him and using little things to help me keep going, you know, because you can't just be like catatonic, you know, but at least just saying like, okay, it helps get me to this point where I can be simple in my prayer and just be with God and let him love me and

Use whatever it kind of takes, you know to help get me there and whether it's one thing is real strong now or like liturgical spirituality can help me or whatever it is, but That those things I guess are just more secondary, you know then and and we can all but the contemplative core is always the goal to have that union to be in the presence and I don't think that'll ever get old, you know, it'll never like yeah We could never get saturated in a way with that because it's like it's like it's like how we're built like we need that No way. Yeah, we want it. We want our real self to encounter the real God Not our false self not the kind of Catholic we think we should be, but aren't yet to encounter Him. Like, I need Him to meet me, because I'm desperate,

and I actually need someone to save me from this desperation. Yes, yes. Yeah, so, okay, with that said, okay, are there specific devotions that have arisen in the Carmelite tradition that try to get people to that center that may differ from other devotionals other than what we've talked about? Yeah, I think well the rosary has always been important in the Carmelite world and we even have like a kind of unique way of praying the rosary six decades and You gotta do one more

Yeah, it's an interesting point it's it's trying to I think the sixth decade can be the Immaculate Conception, because we were all about the Immaculate Conception, so that was one way to keep us plugged into our Marian roots. And eventually, actually, the mantle, when we changed it to white, it was like, well, this is now stands for the Immaculate Conception. So it became one of our big aspects, Marian devotions. So Marian devotion, for one, I would say. Like the rosary, but not necessarily, yeah, again, if you don't it's not always like necessary thinking a lot like st. Teresa of Avila says

Prayer is not thinking much, but it's loving much. Okay, you know, it's not thinking much loving much So if you can just pray the rosary even being in the presence of our lady who brings us to God You don't have to like think about all the steps it takes to God or like the different things It's just just like imagining Mary with you, you know, and just as a little child you're just holding her hand and you're just with her, you know. And so the rosary, I think, can be a help with that. It's not different. Everyone loves the rosary, of course, but it's maybe a Carmelite take on it, you could say, of a devotion. And the infant of Prague, actually, is a...not everyone knows that that's a Carmelite devotion. And the infant of Prague actually is a, not everyone knows that that's a

Carmelite devotion, but it started with the friars too in Czech Republic, and it was because of this miraculous image that had gotten almost destroyed by this battle, and the friar came back and put the image up again, and the image spoke to him and said, you know, the more you honor me, the more I will bless you. And it just took off, and like, you know, came to center of all these pilgrimages and, you know, everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people know the infinite Prague. But that cool concept of like littleness, you know, it's like it teaches us something about like our poverty, our littleness, you know, the little way you could say of the child Jesus. So that's a Carmelite devotion that you can see how it like points though towards maybe a more receptive kind of contemplative type

of prayer. And the brown scapular of course we already talked about it you know but one aspect of it I think is the silent nature of the brown scapular you know because actually and this is where maybe to clear up some misconceptions there's no prescribed prayers that necessarily go along with the brown scapular. It's, there's what's called the sabotein privilege, which was like a tradition that came later about, and like praying five decades rosary and different things to kind of like, for the sake of that sabotein privilege. But that came later, that was not intrinsically connected

to the scapular promise. The scapular promise was wear it. You know what I mean? Wear it. And it's, and with devotion of course, I mean with love for our lady, you know, it's not just the, not just the wearing it, but, but it's, it's a silent prayer, you could say, is like, it helps us understand Carmelite prayer because it's just present, you know,

and it's something that you feel or that gets like stuck and so you remember it's there, you know, or like whatever and it's, it's gonna be a helpful reminder of just like I'm in the presence of God, like Mary's always with me, like it's not like I have to do anything to Fulfill this promise. I just have to kind of like wear it as a child and just like trust that Mary's with me You know, so that might be another car my devotion. I can like point to that in a sense But I know Sacrifice speeds. I'm not sure if that's what they call them, that have sort of, I guess,

become popular after Therese of Lisieux. I don't know if she used them in this way or not, but the idea is you have a thick piece of cord with beads that you can slide to one end and they'll stay up that end because of the thickness of the cord. And that throughout the day, you're just offering little sacrifices. You've heard of this? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Is it something that people do now? I think so.

I think I've seen them for sale, in little shops, which just speaks to the popularity of them. Exactly. Poor capitalism. I don't know. But yeah, I think that's a really beautiful thing to just quietly offer little sacrifices throughout the day.

Hidden, it's nothing that, you know. But it helps you kind of stay aware that like, it's a way to keep in communion with God too, in a sense like, yeah, renouncing certain things. But it's funny, Therese, when she did it as a girl, the neighbors would overhear her like talking about all these sacrifices. She was like, five, you know,

like what is wrong with this girl? Oh, tell me about that, I don't know. Well, it was part of her first communion preparation, but even before that, her sisters taught her to just offer little things up, and she just took to it as a little girl. You'd think in her own mind how that worked, but she would offer little sacrifices

and would get excited about it, and her and her sister would kind of boast about what they did, who did what and everything. And so it became a helpful way just to like, yeah, just to like the demand of the spiritual life, even for like a little kid, you know? Now, the hard thing with Therese is that she,

she had that tendency towards scrupulosity, you know? And so eventually I think she let go of the counting, you know, because to avoid, you know, that sense of like transactional Kind of faith they're like, oh if I do this and God will do this for me and she had to like just surrender To mercy, you know and and with empty hands, but but it was a help for her on the way to like get there you know, just it's just like but not to Not to even get too caught up in like what I do. Yeah, I say yeah, I think one of my favorite

incidents from the life of Therese is, because it's so human and so mundane, praying in the chapel and the old lady, either her dentures, she can hear them, or was it the rosary clicking, I forget. All right, this is a great opportunity to say the difference between the two editions of Story of a Soul.

Okay, at least. So the first edition that was edited by her sister, and it was very necessary to edit it, you know, because Teresa just died and like, they didn't, the world didn't need everything yet, let's say. They weren't ready. And they had, so in that story, she talks about this sister that was like clinging her rosary beads behind her and how it like just drove her crazy in prayer, you know, because she was so sensitive and her ear, her earring was so good and she says she's like sweating, you know,

she's like and all it would have taken was just like one little look Like can you please you know, do you mind? But she said no, I'm not gonna do that, you know, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna deal with this and and make it into my prayer And so, you know, it's a beautiful example, right? But but in reality in the un do that, you know? I'm just gonna deal with this and make it into my prayer. And so, you know, it's a beautiful example, right? But in reality, in the unedited, you know, the uncut version of Story of the Soul, it's, yeah, this sister was like clicking on her teeth,

she's like scraping in like, our dentures, and just like making this annoying sound. So that's the same story. That's hilarious that I said it was either this or that. So it's definitely that, hey. So then how do you have the unedited version and the edited version? Well, in 19... Well, so like the edited version started in, you know, right after Tres died, so 1898.

And again, it did so much good. And the sisters needed to... They didn't feel they needed some of these childhood things about their family and stuff too. And people were still alive that she talked about. And even the sister in the convent that really annoyed her. What the? Yeah, it's like.

So. But actually just a quick funny story about that. So part of that was in the edited version about a sister that she struggled with. But no, but they edited enough that like you could never know who it was. And that sister that that really annoyed Therese, like she thought she was her best friend, you know, and she wrote, she even wrote a little book like after called Story of a Friendship about her and Therese, you know, and that was the one that was the one that was one

trust could stand. And so like, Did she ever learn? So like, I think it was 30 years later, she's like, is old, not now. And this priest confess, because this sister didn't only annoy Terez, right? So, and this priest confessor came in, or the chaplain, and he had some encounter with her that where she frustrated him and he lost it.

And he said, you were and he said you were the one you were the one wow so so so she she did learn eventually maybe at that point though she was so you know humble and just able to take it you know but but she did learn eventually that she was she was the one um but um sometimes my wife flosses her teeth in bed and I hate it so much. I would never say that publicly because you know I would lose all credit for that. I would shame her in the process. I would never do a thing like that. But I guess I could try to offer that up. You know, actually I could say a similar one at brothers in the monastery sometimes.

Like if it's, or this happened in seminary a lot, if you're like brushing your teeth in the morning and they want to say something to you and they're like, while they're brushing their teeth, you know what I mean? And they're like little bits for that, you know, it's just like, come on, man. Like, why would you think? You know, I think I was reading this in imitation of Christ the other day. We always can give a list as long as our arm about the things other people do that annoy us, but it rarely occurs to us that we do anything that annoys anybody else. Like we are Jim and Pam in the office, like in our own life. Like we are the normal ones surrounded by crazy people. Yes. But it's like, Lord, help me to see that people have to put up with me. I'm so sorry. Right. That's

a good point. I learned that in the novitiate. Actually, I didn't, I never saw that as so clear as the novitiate. And that that's more crucified. I'd take a thousand people's annoyances any day over thinking that I'm the one causing it. What was it about the novitiate that you saw that? I think it was just the intensity of it. Because all of a sudden, and I was an active priest before and real busy with the ministry and different things. And I prayed a lot, but it was like, you're just so much going on. Novitiate, all of a sudden it's like, you know, real busy with the ministry and different things. And I prayed a lot, but it was like, you know, it was, you're just so much going on. No visya, all of a sudden it's like,

you're on your own a lot, you're with others, like with one or two others who are your classmates a lot. And the intensity of the life, like just breeds like a kind of self-knowledge. Breeds maybe it sounds bad, but it like, cause self-knowledge is a good thing, but like it can be oppressive at times. Cause you just see yourself in a new light.

And like you see other people's reactions to you too, that you never like noticed before or like sometimes, every once in a while too, like your novice master, he would just, he would correct you, you know, but like, and you're like, whoa, I never knew that, you know? Cause like no one does, no one corrects you when you're a DOS and priest really. Like no one's really, every once in a while,

someone write like an anonymous letter or something. You're kind of just like, whatever. You can anonymously throw it away. Exactly. But when it's your novice master saying like, look, I see you do this and like this is this, you know, it'd be better if you didn't do that or something. It's like, whoa, shoot, like I never knew that.

And then it's like, well, what other things, you know? And so, yeah, just the intensity of it. But it's good. I mean, it's good. Was it hard for you being a priest with a bunch of newbies? Through the novitiate? It was. It was. It at first it was, I'd say I got used to it eventually because like, I mean, the guy I was with, he's a great guy,

but he could have been one of my in my youth group when I was Nular Dains, you know, so it was like, so it was just a different dynamic, you know, and we had very different experiences, you know, but, but it was one of those graces to have like, they going back to St. Therese where she was just like, or even Teresa, I just learned to love everything about the life in a way, even like the little things like that. So like, if I, yeah, like having having my brother tell me that I didn't do the dishes or something, or like I didn't do the dishes or something or like I didn't do it right.

It was like, wow, here's such a chance to just like rejoice in this for a moment, you know, and like, wow, here I am in this life that I can like, he's like, no, no, stop rejoicing. I need you to do the dishes. Let me just take that one as well. It's very annoying. But that's, that's interesting, because I do wonder, you know, that is, yeah, that's interesting. Because I do wonder, you know, that is a real gift that we can we can see how we hurt each other, you know, because,

you know, like I as a father who gets irritated maybe with my kids and I show that sometimes and I harp on the kids or I'm like impatient with my wife or I speak sternly to her or I do all sorts of things. It's like I'm surrounded by people who see me failing, which is really hard, especially when you yell at them during the rosary. That's fun. But but to be able to somehow like accept that, you know, as opposed to like, I don't know. Yeah. Because what's the alternative? I either accept it and, and praise God for it and apologize. Or I pretend I'm right. And they're the ones who needed to be yelled at or something,

which could be true in certain circumstances or what, or I stopped praying altogether because I feel like such a phony. Yes. But so like, I guess I've always wondered because you look holy, right? Because you're wearing that thing. Like, so is that sometimes a way to hide from the, now, because I don't know how intense

your brotherhood life is. If it's intense, then yeah, you can't hide. But I guess I could see it being away. Just like married life could be a way to hide from other things. I'm sure religious life can be a way to hide from the condemning eyes or the realization that you're not who you should be. Yeah. Yes. Anything like that. True. Yeah. No, I I really connect the way you're saying it makes me wonder like,

yeah, just your experience, I think probably we have very similar experiences in certain ways. And I wonder if like Carmel maybe answer some of this is like where that sense of like everyone can see my weakness that helps me know me myself so much better than if everyone praised me. And it's like, so you can have all the success in the world,

but like knowing that you are frustrating or you didn't do your thing right, or you let out a little anger, you know, it keeps me so grounded. And it's funny after, because it wasn't like I had some great success as a Da'as and priest, let's say. I mean, I did retreats and I had different things,

but it wasn't like I would, but you know, I was relatively popular and people, you know, tend to like me or say, oh yeah, you're real good with youth. And you know, so you get a lot of affirmation and stuff and you think, you know, you don't, you don't try to take pride in it, but it's just natural. It's like, and so, but going into the, to the convent

and like having that kind of, like you mentioned with your family, like having people see that, seeing their reactions, seeing my reactions, knowing that I'm kind of like a mess. I found that I was like so much more compassionate in confession, for instance. Like it's just funny. It's one of those things I just noticed like, wow, I like, I feel more patient in confessions

because of this experience of being in community, you know, and it keeps me so grounded. So like if even if I do have a success, it like the vanity or whatever, the joy, you know, that you get when when something goes really well. It doesn't last all that long. The vain joy. I don't want to get out of... There's good joy, of course, healthy joy. But the vain kind of complacency maybe in a success or something, it doesn't hold up

when you're just with the people that see you every day and know you and know your weaknesses. And I wonder in the family if it's similar. You have such a gift and you're doing such tremendous things for the church and have done, helped so many people, and knowing that you can still be with a family or something, wouldn't that keep you so much more grounded than if you were just on your own? Just kind of... I think, yeah, I think that's right. And I'm sure the Lord uses whatever he has to use in whatever state of life you're in. I'm not making the claim nor are you that one has to be in a close relationship

with others in order for the Lord to work. I know there are people who are single, even though they'd rather not be. And you know, the Lord, the Lord will bring your imperfections to the surface, like oil and water. Um, if we let him, but yeah, no, it's, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing to be an idiot. It's actually, it turns out like it's embarrassing to like lose it and then go, I, I'm really sorry that I did that. But what a beautiful opportunity to do that. I think that's the thing that's so scary. What's so scary is that you, you may one day get tired of apologizing and you just start making it

everybody else's fault. Yeah. Golly. Yes. Yes. Which we're so prone to do because it's easier. It's embarrassing. It's so shame. You just, yeah.

Well, you don't want to keep fighting either part of it. Oh, yeah. It's much easier. Everyone else's fault. Yeah. Yeah. If it wasn't for these people. Right.

Actually, that's Dostoevsky. I always go back to him. Oh, yeah. Do you know that chat he has with Father Zosima, the lady with Father Zosima? I was also talking about Dmitry. Dmitry wanted to just fly away with Grushenko. If it weren't for these people, this place, the situation I've got stuck in, if I could just fly away take her to the end of Russia marry her there settle down incognito a Whole new pure life would begin It must be pure, you know So we have this like fictitious view of certain places on earth that I could go and finally be perfect

Yes, but then you go to Lusia and you're like, oh, there's taxis and parking lots and like, this isn't it. So I'll go to Tibet. But they also have plumbing and car lots. And you're like, well, maybe if I could have lived 500 years ago and then you've got to res, who's wrestling with atheism on a death bed. You're like, there's nowhere to

go. Yep. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. I use it, my family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers,

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the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Fred. And then you've got to rest. Who's wrestling with atheism on her deathbed. You're like, there's nowhere to go. Yep, exactly. Talk about that. Talk about Terez on her deathbed and what was edited out

and what she actually talked about. Oh yeah, sure. Well, the, and yeah, so the edited version, again, just go back there real quick. So it was up until about 1950, it was the only version of Story of the Soul. But then a couple of Carmelites, one especially Blessed Mary Eugene of the Child Jesus, who was a, he was a vicar general at the time of the Soul. But then a couple Carmelites, one especially Blessed Mary Eugene, the Child

Jesus, who was a Vicar General at the time of the order, he asked her sister, released the whole thing. He knew it was there. He had seen some of it before. And he said, it's time. The world needs like the whole teres, you know, everything. And so he eventually had it so that the three manuscripts that she wrote that kind of were edited to combine into Story of the Soul were just released and printed and published. And so people could just see everything that she wrote, you know, in terms of her autobiographical manuscripts. And so they discovered a lot of different things, like a lot of anecdotes. One cool thing is nothing substantial was missing in the old one. Like nothing that like

kind of like we didn't discover anything like new about her spirituality, let's say, or like have some like, oh, like we didn't like, Therese was like crippled before, and now we see the whole thing. Like, no, that's, that's the cool thing. Like they, they retained the whole spirit of Therese, but we get anecdotes that help a lot, you know, and different, like, you know, just stories of things. And the, the temptation against faith is a good example of that. Like there was, we did see it in the old edition, but the new edition, I think, allowed like more of it to be brought out. And like she gets to this point where she says like, I can't even write about this because I'm afraid I'm going to make you start doubting the faith. You know, because she had just this, here's a good little girl that all she did was live for heaven.

You know, that was like everything to her. All she wanted to do was just be with the Lord, be with her parents again. And then all of a sudden, it's like that's cut off. The moment she knows she's about to die, she has nine months to live, or I forget how long at the point, maybe a year, no, like a year and a half to live, it's like everything is cut. Her whole experience of faith,

she can't enjoy faith anymore. She can't enjoy the thought of heaven. It doesn't give her strength anymore. It doesn't give her peace to keep going through this valley of tears. It's like all of a sudden it looks like she says, just this wall, you know, and there's nothing there. And there's a part in story of the soul. So it's it sounds like almost like a nihilist or something where

she says like this mocking voice says to me like rejoice, rejoice in this heaven that awaits you when you die. You're going to find not only that it doesn't is not there, but the night of nothingness, the night of nothingness. And she's like, she's like, and now I'm afraid I don't wanna say more, you know? So it's like- She says that. Yeah. In the manuscript.

Wow. Yep, manuscript C. And so that was a real, like, so she, in a way, like it was in solidarity, you know, with all those people who struggle with faith. And like you said, like she's in a carm-like convent, like the perfect place for contemplation and living for God alone. Yeah, in Catholic France, with a holy mother and father.

Yes, yeah, right? With saints, parents that are saints, yeah. I know. And even her own sisters that are there to kind of support her, like her blood sisters, she has like four blood sisters or three in there. And yet, yeah, it doesn't matter. She experiences all the angst of of the world, you know, and that's maybe you could say it's part of the Carmelite vocation. It's like you are in solidarity with all those who suffer and all those, all the spiritual ills, especially that people go through. Like you can, she took it on not in this way of like, I'm going to do this for sinners so that therefore like God will be merciful to them. I'm just kidding. But it was like, no, I'm in solidarity with them and I'm going to pray on behalf of them, you know, but not anymore as like it's me and them or something. You know, it's like, no, like I'm with them and I love them and I'm

going to pray for them because I know what they're going through. You know, so it's so in a way it's like, yeah, she couldn't escape, but she was able to like use that experience to help so many people, you know, and just to know that she went through that is like, it's always a help for me when I have temptations against faith or things like that. It's like, no, I'm not like a terrible person because I have these temptations. It's just how it is, but I have to just deal with it as Therese did. One of my favorite anecdotes, the thing I like to tell everybody is she's on a deathbed eh? 24 it's wild and her sisters say and you

correct me at any point if I'm getting anything wrong it's no wonder you're so confident of heaven we don't think you've committed a mortal sin in your life she says it's not because of my lack of confidence that I go to God that's right not because of my lack of sin that I go to God with confidence. Even if I had committed all of the sins imaginable, I would still be this confident because I know too well what to think of his mercy. She says something like, I've seen how he spoke to the woman at the well, et cetera. I would go my heart bleeding and broken. And, and in that act of repentance, she says in the twinkling of an eye something to the effect of all of that sin compared to his mercy is like a drop of water

flicked into a raging furnace. Could it be that good? Yes exactly. It's the good news. It is the good news and I I think it's all the gospel. It's not like it's just some different thing that it's the gospel. And I believe in love, right? If it's too good to be true, it is true. Like God is the source of that. So we can believe that. We can believe it. And you think all the sins in the world, What does that mean? There's a lot of crazy awful depraved and You know Margaret Mary Ella Cox spiritual father said that said the same thing I glorify you in making known how good you are towards sinners That your mercy prevails over all malice that no matter how many times we fall or how shamefully or how?

Criminally and a sinner need never be driven to despair of your pardon. Yes. It is in vain that your enemy in mine. This is why it's so important that we retain the belief in the true fact that we have an enemy and it is not God. Right. Because it's like when you stop talking about the enemy and Satan, it's like you start to look at God perhaps with more suspicion. It's going to be someone's fault that I'm this stupid, you know? There's a good, I don't know if you saw this image I sent. It's my idea. I love it.

All right, nice. Thank you for that. It's the enemy, you know, Therese letting her little petals fall. Yeah. What is that? And so for those who aren't looking at this is Therese Lejeu dropping petals on a demon and he's burning? Which is kind of badass actually.

So but what does that mean exactly? Well I think it's the demon, what he's afraid of the most is like humble confidence in God's love and God's mercy. And that's what she's come to bring us. She's like the harbinger of that, right? She's the trumpet of the good news. And so the little petals that are the favors that she bestows, like it's to help people have confidence that of just what you said, that no matter what

you've done or no matter what you could have done, it's nothing compared to God's mercy and that His mercy does all. So it's like, so what hurts the evil one the most than those like little petals, right, of those spiritual graces of trust, of confidence, So what hurts the evil one the most than those like little petals, right? Of those spiritual graces of trust, of confidence, no matter what, you know? Like that undermines everything that the devil wants to do in us. Yeah, I feel like there's this recurring theme throughout this interview that might have to do a lot with Carmelite spirituality and thinking of the line in the our father fiat volantos tua, you know Again, it's about the other it's about what he's doing. It's about my trust in him

But too often our spirituality can be about what I can do to somehow earn your love Yeah, right and and to break free of that is not easy because we're so conditioned towards that and there's an enemy who has it Within his interest that we don't become free of that. It's not like it's not just you being unable to let go. There are temptations to not let go. Yeah, yeah, totally. And especially in the vulnerabilities, like, because we all have certain things too, where we're more inclined that way. And it's like the enemy knows and he knows what to push. He knows how to push our buttons. This is what I love about the Charismatics, you know, like when they pray, let's say at a big festival

or prayer gathering, I love the spontaneous praise because they do two things usually. They tell God who he is and they tell God who God thinks I am. That's pretty great. It's like we have to keep reminding ourselves who we are and who he is. Yes. Because we is. Yes.

Because we forget. Yes. And actually, I think if you look at like even someone like St. Therese, that's the basis of it all. It's like who God is, you know, because we talk about doing little things with great love or, you know, different ways that even the attitude of confidence, let's say, is good, of course, trust, but who God is, that's really what it comes down to. And like, so to be able to get that right,

you kind of have to start there. And that's what Therese, that was like the big revolution, was like, God is merciful love. Like, and it's not just that he has merciful love or that like, that's part of him. Like he has all these attributes, right? He's all powerful, all good, all this, all union, you know, all unity rather, all knowing and all loving.

It's like, yes, he is all those things, but merciful love is who he is, like more than anything else you could say. And like that is the lens through which I can see every other part about God. Like that's all he wants to do. Like even his justice wants to just pour his mercy out on me because in his justice, he knows my fragility, you know,

he knows my weakness. Right? Yeah, that was,'t to say that. Do you want to do an expand upon that? Because I think that's so helpful. Yeah, definitely. Well, just the milieu of her time, you know, it was like there was kind of movement of just like proclaiming God's justice, you know,

especially after the French Revolution, so much awful stuff had happened, so much sin. And it's like we need to appease God's justice on behalf of like all these sinners. You know, and so by doing that, it's like I almost take on his just wrath on myself so that others can be spared, you know. So there's a core of truth in that, right? There's a core of goodness in that, of generosity of love, but it misses out on God as a loving father, you know, and so Terese was surrounded by that milieu, so that idea of justice kind of haunted her in a way because of that, you know, and

seeing justice as this way of like God almost like getting data for on the sake of other people who sinned and So she said in her discovery, you know through her prayer through her own reflection and just mystical graces hidden mystical graces I was giving her she discovered that like and especially through the gospel that no like God's justice discovered that like, and especially through the gospel, that no, like God's justice actually is merciful love too. So it's like, so his justice isn't so much looking out for like how I've messed up or like need to sort of correct this thing that I should be punished for. His justice sees my weakness and sees how poor I am. Takes it into account. It takes into account. So it's like God's just, oh, thank goodness. Therefore he must take into account how weak I am. Yes.

And how much I need love. Like he's created me to be this like gaping wound of love or need for love, you know? It's like, so all the more in his justice, does he wanna fill that and pour himself out into my life because I'm like pure need. Are there certain things that people think about to raise that bother you? Um, you know, or the way they interact in prayer or I guess two things come to

mind, you know, one is that you've got this real, uh, solid woman with a solid spirituality that gets romanticized and to the point where it's a bit sickly. Uh, and then also, I don't know what you think about people who are always praying to get roses and things like this. No, for sure. I think you've hit a good spot in me because it's tough sometimes with Therese because a lot of people haven't read her, let's say. They don't really know much about her, but they just see her as a kind of devotional

object and one who obtains graces. And there's not, it's not like there's anything wrong with that. And I don't want to like, I'm not some elite spiritual person, you know, this like, Terez is for everyone. She's for the humble, the poor, those who maybe can't even can't read, you know, but it's, I mean, I'm just trying to say it's like, it's not like you need to like know everything about her to appreciate her, right? But if you only see her as a devotional object, you know,

and as someone to get favors from, you miss out on like her whole message, you know, and like what she was really brought to, what she was really sent to bring to us by the Lord in this kind of revolution of mercy. And so that sometimes annoys me, is when they just, it's just like, Terez is a miracle worker and that's it, you know? And whatever. So I don't see that as much now. I think maybe in the past that was maybe a little more, but I do sometimes run into that. And the other hard thing I think is just the way she's portrayed in media at times,

or just different ways that it kinda gives that image that backs up that stereotype of hers kinda just real sweet and almost like too too much you know not for young men let's say there's something like that that would like turn young men off when when that's so not her like when you actually read her is like no like you can totally connect with it like you know but so I think that the last thing would be only focusing on what we do you know because some people it's like Thererez, little things with great love.

And actually she never said that that was Mother Teresa, which is a great, great thing to say. And it's a great way to live one's life. But, but it doesn't get to the bottom of like who God is and our total need for God's mercy. You know, it just, it can become just like me seeing like, okay, I just do little things with great love and then that's the path I'm following, Therese, when like Therese is so much more about like, the total confidence in God

and what he's gonna do in your life, in who God is, you know? So I guess, yes, that's sometimes a noise when you're doing too much emphasis on that. Yeah, all right. We're gonna take some questions from our supporters. If you are watching right now, please consider supporting us over at matfrad.locals.com. When you become an annual supporter, we will send you a free pints with

Aquinas Beerstein. You'll get access to our exclusive videos. You'll get these interviews a week before they hit YouTube and you'll also be supporting all the work that we do. So big thanks. And you'll also get to ask our guests questions. So Speaking of which Francesco Borgogni, sorry Francesco says how to draw the line between true and good devotion and superstition. For example, do you think there is a risk? Treating the scapula as an amulet rather than a sacramental. Mm-hmm That's a good question. I think that's come up a lot, you know,

because people have a sense of like that promise, right? If you wear this, you won't suffer eternal fire, you'll be saved. And so it's like, okay, well, all I have to do is wear it and that's it. And so I guess there is a possibility maybe of seeing it that way, is like it's only this wearing this thing

that somehow does something magic to me and like protects me, you know? So I guess that is a danger. I haven't come across that too much for all, like there's a lot of, you know. That's a good point. So there's a lot of ink spilled on that though, I have to say, you know?

And they always like, every time you hear something about scapular, it's like, but it's not superstitious. Like you always have to like condition. I don't go that route, honestly. Because I think a lot of simple people love the promise and maybe they don't know everything about it and they're wearing it with devotion. Maybe they don't, you know, but it's a good way to enter into a relationship with Our Lady, you know. So even if you could say there's some superstition, I don't know what,

I'm not afraid of that. You know, I don't think that's a huge danger right now. But that's kind of like when people talk about how people overemphasize the devil. That can be true. But if you're talking about like modern secular society, like, yeah, we can worry about that later right now. That doesn't seem to be the issue. Right. Michael says, how would you contrast Carmelite spirituality with other monastic

orders and traditions like the Basilian, Byzantine, Benedictine? That's a great question. I think part of the distinction with Carmelite spirituality is that we started as hermits. And I guess you could say all monastic spirituality started with the Desert Fathers and St. Anthony of the Desert. So in some ways it has its origin there. But a lot of like Benedictine spirituality, Basilian, Byzantine, or like the monks of St. Basil and things, they were always kind of living in community and had like a rich liturgical life and that was, you know, forged their spirituality

in a lot of ways. Whereas Carmelites, because of our aromidical origins and we were hermits, there's I think a lot more emphasis on the personal relationship with God and the transformation that God does on the individual person. Even though we live in community, community shapes us. That sense of personal union with God, I think, takes on more weight in a way and is emphasized more because of that we were hermits, and that's sort of the hermit path. Now always it's for the sake of the church. So I don't want to give the impression that it's like

only for me to be holy. Like St. Teresa has a great thing in way of perfection. She's like, if all of your fasts, all your prayers, all of the things you're striving for union with God are not for the sake of like the church's ministers and for, you know, bringing all the, at the time, the heretics that had left the church back in and helping, then they're for nothing, you know? So it's always like pointed left the church back in and helping, then they're for nothing.

So it's always pointed towards the church too. It's so personal and it's my union with God, but it's for the sake of the church. So maybe that's one distinction because of our medical origins, I could say, with Benedictine. But there's so much in common a lot because of the Desert Father tradition. I think there's a lot in common with all monastic kind of traditions. I've heard a Carmelite monk say that there's, you know, your history is from the East. You all were born and raised in the East. So in what ways do you see similarities with maybe your spirituality with the Byzantine monks or anything to say about that? Yeah, exactly. Well, I think the emphasis on the Holy Spirit is one that I think is cool that you see, especially in like St. Basil, right? Or Baz? I never know. Is it Baz or Basil?

I don't either. Augustine, Augustine, Carnegie, Carnegie, I don't know. I say Basil. Basil. Okay, cool. Well, with St. Basil, you know, this, the, the pneumatological, that's here's one of these little words, pneumatological focus on the Holy Spirit. You see that a lot in the divinization that's very present in the Eastern Fathers, is very present in the Carmelite tradition that you don't always see in other Western traditions as much. I think St. John the Cross really brings that out. Like, he calls, he doesn't use the word divinization, but that's transformation, becoming union with the beloved. He calls it, we become God by

participation. Does he use the analogy with the log on fire? Yes. Do you want to tell us about that? Yeah, it's a great image and it's always always like relevant I feel like because it's so simple It's like so when when we start opening ourselves a spiritual life We're like, you know a wet log basically he says like this wet log when the flame First enters this wet log like it does a lot of damage in a way like because the wet log seemed pretty good Like it was probably a good color, you know, and it was heavy and just sitting there. It was fine It was doing what it's supposed to do But then when the flame enters like all of a sudden like it it starts crackling making all this noise

You know come out box come out. Yes, exactly. Yeah, actually that that's a good addition I don't think John wrote that that's a great that was from father Ken Barker. He wrote a book called And look it up so I can tell people to get it. He is the founder of the companions of the Cross in Australia. I want to make sure I get this book right. I had him on the show once. He's one of my favorite people. He's such a good and beautiful man. Anyway, when I think of the becoming is a becoming fire, maybe. Yeah, becoming fire.

I would recommend this book, but he uses the analogy from John, but he talks about that, the bugs coming out. I don't wanna take credit, but continue. No, it's a great image. And then he says it starts smelling too. It's like stinky, the smoke, it's like not good smoke. And it gets a lot darker and blacker, the carbon. So it looks like things are going wrong.

It looks like I'm going backwards and nothing good is happening. Yeah, that's a good point. And that's our experience so know, it looks like I'm going backwards and like nothing good is happening. That's a good point. You know, and that's our experience so often, I feel like it's, you know, and that's that he starts there almost, it's like you feel like your prayer is hidden in the wall, you're not going forward, but God is working and it's like having that confidence that God is working, the flame has entered and as it goes, it brings out more imperfections and more, but eventually all those are gone in a way. I mean, at least in terms of all the things

that are holding back union, maybe you still feel imperfect, you see imperfect, but the things that are actually holding you back from union with God is purified. And the flame becomes so, it just engulfs the log so much that it becomes one. There's no difference. You can't tell where the fire and the log end and begin. Exactly, exactly. So it's like, and not to say, I mean, obviously there's a difference

ontologically, but you're so immersed, you're so participation, right, is really the doctrine, the participation in the divinity is so much that you, and I haven't heard this in any other saint, Western saint at least, John John says the soul becomes God by participation Yeah, you know and that's like whoa, that's a huge Yeah, beautiful I had this analogy. I think the Lord kind of taught me I've shared it on the show before stop me if you've heard of it But I was living in Ireland and we had this very cold winter back in

2006 or 7 or 8 I forget so there was a thick blanket of snow in the backyard and I'd look out and it was very beautiful just very clean and crisp and neat. And as spring started to arrive, the snow began to melt, and I started to notice that there were things under the surface. So the first thing I saw was like the handle of a tricycle that was laying sideways. I'm like, oh, there's a bloody tricycle out there. And then there's a soccer ball over there.

There's a carton of cigarettes, maybe. By the time the snow had melted, it was filthy, and it was not at all like I had hoped. And I think something like that as you come into relationship with God, and I'm kind of stealing from Lewis here a bit, but it's like, you're like, I'm doing pretty good. I am doing pretty well. It's got a couple of things. Sure. Who doesn't? But then the closer you come into union with him, you're like, I am a disaster zone. Yes. And that's the good news too. It's like it helps us see like I'm never going to attain this place that I think I'm doing okay, like I'm good, I'm good, you know, and because

if we're shooting for that then we're, yeah, it's just like no, it's okay. Yes, almost like we're saying I want to get to a point where I no longer need God. Yeah, yes. Philip Z says, could you say something about John of the Cross and his dark night and how to discern if I really going through And in our spiritual life nice, I've heard people say this, you know, like like I'm going through a dark night like shut up You're not at all going through a dark night. Like you just this is life and sometimes life's hard and How do people abuse that term? How do they misunderstand it or yes Well, just the first thing was the dark night. It always presupposes faith, hope and charity, right? So sometimes you'll hear about people like you're saying like the world's going through a dark night or something society is and it's like

No, the Dark Knight is always medicinal So maybe it is going through a Dark Knight in a sense like everything's dark, but the Dark Knight is always medicinal It's always good. So and faith open charity is what makes it good so like in order to like benefit from the Dark Knight you say you have to have faith open charity is what makes it good. So in order to benefit from the dark night, you say you have to have faith open charity. And so yeah, so that's one thing. So if you're not at all practicing the faith and you don't really believe, you can't really say that you're in the dark night, right?

But on the other hand, there's a lot of vehicles for the dark night. So you might not, well, all right, see this is where I get messed up. I'm trying to schematize a little bit. There's the Dark, John talks about two phases of the Dark Knight. It's all one reality.

And again, going back to the log, it's all the flame. So the flame at first, he says, when it hits us, it's oppressive. It feels like darkness. The log gets darker, but it's not. It's actually the very light of God. So that's one thing to keep in mind. It's the light of God entering us that starts the dark night,

and it's a necessary purification so that those things are removed that get in the way of our total union with the Lord. And so when that process starts, what it's doing, it's like accommodating us to the Spirit, you know, because we're, you know, body, soul, flesh, and spirit, accommodating us to the spirit, you know, because we're, you know, body, soul, flesh, and spirit, senses and spirit is probably better to say. And it's hard. We live at the level of the senses for so much of our life. All of a sudden, we're given this spirit, or at least like it's having an effect in our life after our conversion, let's say.

And it's hard on the senses. Like, we have to like let that process work where the senses get accommodated to the spirit, meaning like I don't live based on the senses, like we have to like let that process work where the senses get accommodated to the spirit, meaning like I don't live based on the senses anymore, I live according to this, to what, to love, you know, to faith, hope and charity. Those things move me more than just the senses now, right? And it's, that's where the dark night comes in, because that's not an easy process to accommodate ourselves in this new way. It's like we're being changed and it's not fun to go through that, right? So, so I think that's one thing to keep in mind with the dark night. It's meant to lead us, to accommodate us in a way to a new reality

of God's Spirit transforming us, making us one with Him. And so we experience that as darkness, even though it's light, even though it's light. And you have the dark night, the senses, which kind of is that first round in a way of being purified. And some of those things are being, you know, removed or those obstacles are being taken out of the way. And hopefully we do what we have to do our part in that. And then we kind of get to a point where it's like, okay, like I've kind of almost like, Whoa, I got I made it through, like my

prayer is a little more simple. I'm more just in touch. I don't have maybe all those ups and downs in the same way. Like you feel the effect sometimes of like going through the dark night of the census. And most, and like everyone is kind of called, no, everyone's called to the dark night. I mean, everyone is called to union with God. But John would say like the dark night of the census

is not uncommon. So it's not like, oh, it's just for the elite or something, or it's some other figure of spiritual people. Dark night of the Senses is not uncommon. So it's not like, oh, it's just for the elite or something, or it's some other figure of spiritual people. Dark Night of the Senses is a real thing that probably most people who pray are going through, I think you could say. But the Dark Night of the Spirit is where John says, this is what I really care about in a way.

I'm talking about the Dark Night of the Senses and it's necessary, but Dark Night of the Spirit is really where it's all at and it's very hard to understand and explains. And I'm gonna do my best to do it, John would say. And that's why he wrote, you know, to help explain especially the passive dark night of the spirit where basically it's like these things that have been purified, you know, God is moving you to live a more spiritual life and not just according to the senses. But there's roots there that are so deep that you cannot get rid of them. Like no matter how much you fast, no matter how much you meditate, good works you do, it's not going to uproot those things. And like God has to be the one who does it. And that is painful because it's like it's so bewildering it.

Like it can, it turns our world upside down in different ways. And it's hard because there's vehicles of it. It's like there's, so there's ways that God uses things to do it in us. It's not only like this pure light that comes to us. And then, then I just go through the dark night of the spirit and just alone in a way. It's like, no, it's like your spouse, you know, who's like this vehicle of the dark night

because like what she's going through, what every, what something's happening is turning my whole world upside down. And I can't, I like, I don't know which way is up anymore. And like, but, but I'm praying still and I want God still. That's the key. It's like, or Therese in the dark night, like where my, all of my hope of heaven seems to be taken away, but like, but I still love God and I still want God, you know, even if I don't feel it,

but it's, it's there somewhere. And that is a sign that like, okay, you're, you're moving forward and your whole world is being turned upside down perhaps Because it's these these like really deep-rooted Ego-centric tendencies that are being ripped out, you know, and and you think we're ripped out as maybe too violent, but it feels that way so I think a family is a great probably great place to experience the dark night because it forces you to not have those egoocentric tendencies or the community life or life as a single person trying to love and trying to like maybe deal with the loneliness at times they experience you know whatever it is our family or friends that are giving them

difficulties like there's vehicles I guess you could say of the dark night of the spirit where it's things that you don't control but God you have to trust that God is using those things to root out those egocentric tendencies so like the final kind of, the final obstacles are removed so that God can just rush in and just totally take over. As St. Therese's sister told her, you're possessed by the good God like the wicked are possessed by the demon, you know, and so it's like that is what God wants to do, just like totally possess us. And the Dark Knight is like the only way to do it. And John says,

if you knew how good the Dark Knight was, all you would do is pray to enter into it. Wow. You know? Because without it, yeah, we can't reach our goal. Wow, that's probably the best explanation I've ever heard. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so it's not the dark night of sin, right? Where I abandoned the path of reality and my life becomes increasingly chaotic because I'm involved in irrationality. It's, yeah, obviously not that.

So it's the opposite of that. So it's God going to work on you, but you're still loving him somehow without sensible feelings. Mm-hmm. And often even, yeah, even the concept of God could be even difficult at certain moments in that, but you still, you still love him. You still want him. Wow. Okay. Thank you. I see. Catholic Viking says, I know I have a lot of excuses. That's his real name, actually. His mother. No, I know I have a lot of excuses on why I'm so busy, but I want a more contemplative life.

What is one prayer? One way to pray that can help that. one way to pray that can help this, that is quick enough, I will fit it in my day, but long enough to challenge me besides the rosary, already trying to do it daily, but usually during my drive to work. What a beautiful, honest question. I just, I mean, the fact that he's able to express himself

so vulnerable is a sign that he's probably there. Exactly, exactly. And that actually, that's a good first way, just the desire, you know? Like the desire for that already is a huge part of the journey because without that desire, we can't do it, you know, we can't move forward. So wanting that and being very realistic about it too.

And I think even asking God, like, or Our Lady, you know, please, or our lady, please give me the prayer life that I need is one thing. It's just like, recognize like, I can't do this on my own and it's really hard for me to like know how to fit this in and have all these other responsibilities. So please show me how I can do this. And so I think that's another way,

just like really acknowledging your dependence on God, even to be able to start praying in that kind of helpful way. And then trying to just make a commitment and stick to it, you know, and this is where it gets in of like the nitty-gritty of like, I will give 15 minutes a day to like look over the scriptures or like maybe just take the mass readings. I always like the mass readings. I still use those to pray all the time, just like, because they're just nice little nuggets, you know, using that to help quiet me, you know, and to help just like center me on God and wherever I'm at, I can just like keep going back by like reading a little bit.

And then just like kind of so like Lecture Divina is a great way to start, I think, honestly, for me at least, that's a great way. But just sticking to that commitment as best you can, and doing it first thing in the morning often is like the only way, you know, and some people aren't morning people and that's okay. And if you can do it at night or something, that's fine. But if you're super busy, it's really hard when you when you when you when you have to like do it at night, you know. So I think that's another thing is just trying to and do something reasonable that you can do 10 minutes, 15 minutes even I think is a good place to start and of just like kind of more quiet, personal prayer, where you're allowing, you're at least giving that

space for God to work and to speak to you. And it's not just you just doing something for 15 minutes. I'm gonna scandalize everybody here by telling them that one of my teachers of the spiritual life would be a Protestant, John Eldridge. And he has this app, I think it's called the One Minute Pause app or something like that. And you can choose between one, five, 10 minutes. And certainly this isn't uniquely Protestant at all, of course, but he invites you to just surrender everyone and everything to Christ. And just the pausing to do that, it shows you how much you're carrying,

maybe through things that you've been doing or seeing, the interactions you've had that rubbed you the wrong way that you haven't even paused long enough to think about. Just the one minute where you surrender everything, like I release it to you, the conversations I had, the people that are bothering me, this situation that's causing me anxiety. Like I know in to you. The conversations I had, the people that are bothering me, this

situation is causing me anxiety. Like I know in a minute from now, because I'm an idiot, I'll pick it all back up from your beautiful arms, Jesus. I know that, you know that. Let's just, whatever. For this one minute, I surrender everything and everyone to you. I find that really beautiful. That is really cool. Actually, I needed to hear that because that sometimes is more demanding than even like sitting down for like this planned prayer. It's just like stopping what you're doing for a minute and like doing that. Yeah. He, he suggests thinking of doing it between your main activities. So like you drive the car, you park in the driveway, you're about to get out.

Just take one minute. Yeah. Just one minute and just give everything and everyone to Jesus. Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. I wish I could say I was faithful to that, but when I do it, I'm like, this is it. Right? Yeah. That's cool. I'm I'm gonna really actually try to put that into practice. And I think that's a great way of looking at practically brother Lawrence too.

You know, that's a great way to, to kind of live that path. So, and even if you don't have that chunk of time, if you can, if you could keep doing that throughout the day, wow, that'd be powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how, what, okay, how many Carmelite orders are there? Two mainly? There's multiple.

There's two main orders. So you have the, the disc house branch and the ancient order of Carmelite to the old carms. Um, they're the two main branches, but then there's a lot of congregations that have been like aggregated to either one of those branches and that kind of live their own life and have their own autonomy. But more or less, that's kind of how it works. So for us, I don't know if you've heard of the Carmelite Sisters of the Sacred Heart

of Los Angeles. They're great. Oh, yes, of course. They used to live across the street from me. Really? Here in Steubenville. I think that's them because some of them were studying at Franciscan. Yes, that makes sense Yeah, beautiful aren't and and they live like and they live active lives

But they live such like a tremendous like deep spiritual like they I yeah Their prayer life is still pretty intense even though they have all these apostolates and things So they they're like, yeah, they're so good like Carmelite just like Charism is so strong in them. What about those? they're so good, like Carmelite, just like, charism is so strong in them. What about those fellas in Wisconsin? Is it Wisconsin or Wyoming? Wyoming, yep. Come on, who are they associated with and how do I join them? This is where I have to pray the Holy Spirit out and say anything.

No, they are, they call them, well, they're Carmelite monks, you know, so one thing is that they're kind of new in a way because we never called ourselves monks, you know, we're always friars or hermits, or we started as hermits and became friars, but like friar hermits. But they have, you know, embraced the monastic, kind of cloistered life, I guess you could say, is the planet as far as I know, and I don't want to misrepresent them But um, but that they live like, you know as kind of almost like male nuns in a way Like in terms of the Carmelite charism, you know, because they they want to live the cloistered existence And and kind of have that but of course with that deep spirituality deep contemplative life

So so I think they model their lives more in that way. So they affiliated with with the Okhams or the... They're not. They're not. Yeah, as far as I know, I don't know if it, maybe with the Okhams there's a process, like, cause certain groups might start up, like there's a couple hermit groups, like Lake Elmo, Minnesota, I think they started as like, Carmelite Hermit's kind of a, you know, renewal in a way of the aromidical lifestyle. And then they ended up aggregating to the Okhams. So there's a couple groups like like that that have done that, but I don't,

I don't believe the Wyoming monks have, have done that, but, um, but that's just my understanding. Yeah. My next question was for those young men who are watching this, who are open to a vocation, how do they contact you? Yes. Or whoever your, uh, vocations director is. Yeah. I appreciate that. That question. That's awesome for you to is. Yeah, I appreciate that question. It's also for you to ask.

And yeah, don't let my example or anything I said sway you, but it's such a beautiful calling. And it's something that's enraptured my life, the call to Carmel. So if you're feeling it, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid is the first thing. And we have a good website. I think I should know it by heart,

but I think it's just Discouscarmel.org. But if you look up vocations, Discouscarmelites. Yeah, discouscarmel.org, yeah, righto. This is, yep. Yes, and then so you can click on vocations there. And you know, we're three provinces, so that's the Washington province. If I forget to put this link in the description,

will you tell me? And I'll immediately so that people can just click the link below. Cool, I appreciate that. I really do. And there's three provinces. So that's the Washington province, or it's the province of Immaculate Heart.

And then there's the province of St. Therese down south, or semi-province, and then the province of St. Joseph in California, Arizona. And so yeah, so they all have their own websites as well. And I would definitely recommend, you know, looking at those because they're great guys and we're all in this together. So I don't want to just go for one. But no, but what I saw videos of you and Father Mark Foley,

it's not this one. It's not like that. Yes. What is your podcast? Because it's excellent. I've watched several episodes. I've been so edified. Really? Yeah like that. Yes. What is your podcast? Cause it's excellent. Like I've watched several episodes. I've been so edified by them. Yeah. That's cool to hear. Yeah. It's very humbling to know that you would watch it. Honestly. That means a lot. That really means a lot. What is it called? It's called the, well, it's ICS publications is the YouTube channel. Yes. Publications. Yep. And then Caramel cast is the name of like the series that we do. It's a podcast and and those that's great Oh, that's cool to hear. Yeah, we we our whole goal with that was like just give carmine spirituality

You know, we don't talk about a lot like interesting topics per se or like new things necessary We just kind of talk about our saints. So hope hopefully that helps people just go deeper I feel it looks like you is a it's not me You always wear the same thing it's confusing. He's better he's kind of the he's behind a lot of him and Pier Giorgio they did those first ones they they keep please keep doing it all right that's cool to hear we try to yeah we try to do the live actually when you asked about like ways to get to know Saint Teresa maybe a little better before going to like the thick collected works Carmel Cast might be a good way like we're

doing a season now on the life St. Teresa. We do a season on St. Terese. You know, we have a lot again. It's it's like it's kind of just focusing in on our saints. Basically is what we do. So people if you type in Carmel cast, you know, my accent's weird, Carmel cast with just one word. You will show up.

Yeah. So people can go check out these conversations between two monks chatting about to raise Teresa. Yeah. And the one with Father Mark Foley, like. It's pretty wild. I mean, for us, for us. It got like 150,000 views. That's awesome. And it's a 50-minute video with this older friar about difficulties in prayer. You know what I mean? And it just shows like... He's unreal.

Yes. I love that guy. And can I tell you a funny story about with him? So I guess you had contacted him some time back about being on Pines with Aquinas. But he's not, you know, he's an older guy. You know, he's not necessarily like on the internet scheme too much, you know, so he doesn't know a lot about what's going on.

So he thought, oh, that's nice. Like, but he was like busy or something. And he's like, well, maybe some other time or something. I forget how he responded, but he, but then the younger friars, those guys heard Pines with a Quietness, what did you tell them? And they were like, do you know what you've done? Like, it was like this.

Do you know what you've done? Sounds good, dumb and dumber reference. That's where that's from, I was learning. But it's the only way I can express it. It's the only, and so he right away was like, oh, and then now he's watching Pines with a Quietness, he loves it, He loves it. And he wants to be on now.

I would be so honored. Yeah. So please get him on. You know what's cool about father? I'm going to say something that might sound a little insulting, and I hope it isn't taken away. But there's something about people who are just exactly themselves. They don't even look like they're trying. Do you know what I mean?

Like, you could try a bit more like this. And I see that in Dr. Bob shoots who I love, you know, and I see that maybe in Peter Crave and I said who just like they don't seem terribly interested in like winning over anybody like hey, there's none of that. It's just hi, but it's so authentic that you're like, oh yes Because YouTube so much of YouTube is hey guys so much of that crap. It's exhausting So I just loved how down to earth and beautiful that man was

Yeah, that's awesome to hear and I and I I coincide even living him for a little bit He's he is that way and like a lot of our older fries are that way? It's like is a good for us. It's a good example. They like they are They're just like totally who they are and they're cool that and it's kind of it's union with God in a lot of our older friars are that way it's like is a good for us it's a good example they like they are they're just like totally who they are and they're cool with that and it's kind of it's union with god in a lot of ways so good stuff anything else you wanted to touch on before we wrap up um anything you need to shill i appreciate so much what you've just you know been able to share and um yeah i honestly, it's just such an honor to be in here to be able to share this stuff with you and like, thank you for your interest and for all those who watch this that like, that God really is calling you to that intimacy,

you know, in that union and just to not be afraid of it, you know, because it's the best thing that can happen to us and like, and yeah, so I just appreciate that we can be here talking about that. Yeah, it's been real fun so thanks so much. Cool. All good? Yep.