Pints With Aquinas - Evangelizing Culture & Catholic Vs Protestant Stuff (RuslanKD)

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

@RuslanKD is a popular YouTuber, Christian hip-hop artist, and creative entrepreneur based in San Diego, CA. Known for his impactful content on faith, finance, and fitness, RuslanKD inspires and empowers his audience through his music, podcasts, and online presence. As a co-founder of the Dream Junkies and the Kings Dream Entertainment record label, he continues to influence and engage with the Christian community worldwide. 🍺 Get episodes a week early, 🍺 score a free PWA beer stein, and 🍺 enjoy exclusive streams with me! Become an annual supporter at https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors: Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/matt Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Strive21: https://strive21.com/matt 💻 Social Media: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 Store: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com/

And I would say within the last year, if I'll be honest, I've met a lot more Catholic and Orthodox folks that seem to really take their faith seriously and seem to be not just bold and outspoken, but leaning into the practice of the faith. All right, I'm going to say a quick prayer before we start. Let's do it. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, amen. For Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, everywhere present and filling all things, the Treasury of Blessing and the Giver of Life, come and dwell within us, cleanse us of every stain and save our souls, O gracious one, amen. Amen.

Ruslan! We're here. It happened. People are excited. They love your stuff. I love your stuff. Ruslan, we're here. That happened. People are excited. They love your stuff. I love your stuff. I, you're my favorite Catholic creator.

Now, are you only saying that because I invited you on? No. If Trent invites you on next month, are you gonna change your tone? No, Trent, I just, Trent do interviews? No, but he might. Yeah, yeah, no, I- He might if you say he's the best Catholic YouTube.

I think he, so, Patrick Wood David has this thing about being a triple threat creator. Have you heard about this? No, I want so. Patrick with David has this thing about being a triple threat creator. Have you heard about this? No, I want to being able to analyze, being able to interview and being able to have like good takes. So I think you are able to come to all three with the interviewing skills. That's why I say you're my favorite because you have good takes and you can give us an analytical breakdown.

Yeah. And the guests have just been so wonderful I got a job if you had told me when I was 15 that I get to sit across from people like dr Scott Hahn and Berg's murder and Jordan Peterson. Yeah, I would have known who those people were That's pretty awesome. So yeah, I'm really pumped to have you. I mean, I've got some loved ones. I won't say who who Who I really care about and I care about their Christian journey and so to hear them tell me they love Ruslan just made me so happy. That's sweet. And it actually is I don't know if you do this but sometimes I can fall into the trap of thinking this YouTube channel is not

doing anything or it's not that helpful to people or is it even worth it but then when I hear somebody else say your channel is worth it I just want to be like keep going thank you so much so. So well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. That means a lot How long you've been doing your channel? I started dabbling in 2015 quit when I quit my job. And so I did kind of like the vlog format of My day as a full-time rapper So I quit my job June 1st, 2015,

and there was a vlog up that I think people could still dig up of like my first day of not having a job. That evolved into kind of like talking head videos, like 2017, 2018, and then I started reviewing music, other artists' music, and live streaming. And then that was kind of like the unlock when I went from like vlogging, talking head, to live streaming.

And then live streaming, initially just reviewing music, but then in the middle of like a music stream, someone asked me a thought about something that happened. And I said it and I was like, oh, maybe I should chop this down. And that just kind of was what resonated. I didn't do a whole lot of like faith content initially. It's more so about like being a Christian who's a creator, not like Christian content per se.

But that was the questions my audience had for me. And we started clipping those up in 2020 during the pandemic. And that's when it really kind of took off. So beginning of 2020, maybe 15,000 subscribers end of 2020, like 70,000 subscribers. So that's when it really like exploded. So I don't know much about your past to be honest.

So were you a Christian rapper? Yes. Okay, explicitly. I was a Christian rapper? Yes. Okay explicitly I was a Christian I was a rapper my faith was definitely in the music we Didn't fit in the mold of the mid-2000s Christian rap scene. It was very I Don't know how else to say it like Churchy like it was a church is a wrong word, very like theologically dense. So it was rapping John Calvin and Charles Spurgeon quotes. And we just

didn't do that. We kind of just made music that was Christian and hip hop. So we the primary lion share of our revenue when we started making a little bit of money was actually from secular colleges. So I would travel through small towns like this and play at secular colleges that weren't like coastal elites that wouldn't book a Christian act, right? They knew we were Christian, but we weren't there to preach or plasmatize. We were just there. So we play secular colleges, but we would be unapologetically Christian. And that's kind of how we made our life's income. So why did you quit? Especially because it's not like you quit because you had a successful YouTube channel

that hadn't happened yet. So what led you to quit that? So I went on a three week tour in 2018. My son was like three years old and that just was too much time away. I was not in a healthy place. And it was hard. Like it was this is taking my wife's Mazda 5 2012 and driving it from San Diego all the way to New York City

and back across. And then the pay was coming from colleges. But then we would book like a small church type thing and kind of piece together stuff like that. And it just it just wasn't healthy to travel that much and be gone that much on my, on my spiritual health and my physical health. I was really out of shape and terrible sleeping patterns

and a lot of sugar consumption food, just bad. So 2018, I was like, I gotta change something up. And so I started traveling less and less. And then that's when YouTube started opening up. So 2019, I basically did a upload every day of 2019 of podcast clips initially and then it didn't really switch until 2020. So primarily like I was making a living passively

off of my music through stuff like residual royalties, sync licensing, stuff like that. So when you quit, you thought, well, there's enough coming in until I figure out what I'm gonna do next Yeah, there's enough of a runway here like I didn't have I couldn't do shows Which was a lot of it and then as I stopped doing shows It was almost like the sync licensing and the royalties all made up for so the Lord was just providing So what did you think you would do after I didn't know?

Yeah, I had no idea. So it must have it sounds like it was a real call that you felt like the Lord was moving you. Yeah. Be with your family and that he would provide. Yeah, it was it was definitely like I can't travel anymore. Like this is not sustainable for me. If I'm traveling, I got to scale that down. And so the music just kind of took a backseat. And so I still release music, but I have zero desire to go and do like a tour or

like being away from my family for longer than a week is like just out of the question. And so it was more like I did not have the desire to do the typical music thing. And everything has changed since then. Now you can make a living just off of TikTok and Instagram and all that sort of stuff. And so yeah, I just I knew there was something to this YouTube. I knew I couldn't keep traveling, so I leaned into the YouTube. And then within about a year of like really going

into the YouTube, all of a sudden doors opened up and I had an audience that cared about what I had to say beyond just my commentary on music and hip hop. How did you get into hip hop? I grew up in Southeast San Diego in the early 90s. So we moved there when I was six and 91. And that was, we were initially the only Armenian family that came out as refugees to San Diego.

So predominantly black in Hispanic neighborhood. That's what everybody was listening to. There were, this is as you see the break dancing exploding, graffiti art exploding, my buddies would play music in the apartment complex. And I was just so intrigued by it. Prior to that point, my exposure to American culture was like Michael Jackson and American Ninja,

but this was different. And this is before the gangster rap phase. So this is like LL Cool J, Public Enemy, that era. And then the gangster rap started. And then the gangsta rap started. And then that was definitely a shift from what I initially was exposed to. And I just I just love the art form. It was an interesting art. It's one of those art forms that you know, if you like,

I remember walking past a pawn shop with my mom when I was like six and it was an electric guitar. But the on ramp to an electric guitar. But the on-ramp to an electric guitar was hundreds of dollars back then, right? And so as a poor refugee family, there's no way my mom's gonna, like that is outside of the realms of possibility for me to ever learn an instrument. But I could learn to write raps and rhyme words and I just started doing that. And then the on-ramp to that was like my school has a karaoke machine, I could play an instrumental from one side,

I could hit record on the other tape deck, so instrumental playing on one side, tape deck, and I have a mic plugged in and I'm rapping the lyrics I wrote. So the on-ramp was easier to get into rap than any other instrument. And so immersed in predominantly black and Hispanic culture with the ease of accessibility to try something different.

And that evolved into kind of doing a couple of demo tapes like fourth and fifth grade to then doing it more and more consistently. And then ninth grade, I was on the basketball team and I was like freestyling and the guy, the rest of the basketball team was like, oh, you're actually like good. You should really take this thing seriously.

So there was a kid at the school who had a computer, like a little home studio, let me record a demo. I took that demo, performed at a talent show, won the talent show, won a bunch of battle of the bands as a rap group back then. And yeah, as I came to faith, it was one of those things where this is something I've always done and I think I can do it for God. I got to change it. I got to change how I'm doing it. I can't use profanity. I can't objectify women. I can't.

I was never like in like that far gone. And so I just slowly changed and pivoted over. I think I know the answer to this, but why is rap and hip hop considered almost dirty words among Christians and why need it not be that way? I think whenever art is combined with capitalism, the things that are going to sell the most are going to be the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and a pride of life, as first John says. So you're taking any really art form and you combine it with a need to make money and now publicly traded corporations are involved. What is the easiest thing to sell to people? It's vice. Give people what their flesh gratifies. So the music that's going to rise to

the top is not going to be the most quality or the most virtuous. It's going to So the music that's going to rise to the top is not going to be the most quality or the most virtuous. It's going to be the stuff that kind of appeals to those carnal sinful desires. And when you're exploiting a product, not only in a negative sense, I mean like exploiting it for profit, you're trying to be as mass appealing as possible. Well, what do people like? They like violence, they like sex, drugs and rock and roll. They love these things. So you give them what they want,

it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So you give them the thing that's bad for them because it sells the most. And then the next generation takes it and goes to another level and another level and another level. And so now multiple generations removed and you have pretty, pretty dark debaucherous stuff in terms of the mainstream side of things. But there's always exceptions to the rule.

And so I think when people look at that, they're, they're not, I mean, it's no different than Hollywood. Like what are the most popular movies prior? You know, you remove like Fast and the Furious 15 or whatever version they're on. And it's gonna be stuff that's appealing to those desires, violence, right? The difference though with Hollywood is we kind of all know this is not real.

With rap, you get rewarded for appearing real. And so rap is no different than like WWE characters, except now the next generation and next generation are really trying to be what they rap about. And so you get this really dark culture now with, not all of hip hop, but a good percentage of it, where it overlaps with the streets and the drug and the pimping and all that sort of stuff.

And so I think some of the critique is fair. I think a lot of it is also telling that people don't really know what else is out there. Like if your lowest view of hip hop is the crazy debaucherous stuff, then you probably don't know the rest of this. It would be like me hypergeneralizing all of rock and roll music with Ozzy Osbourne

biting off a pigeon's head and saying all of it's satanic and demonic. And it's like, well, no, that's just the stuff that is the biggest, right? So I think that's why it gets a bad rap. And I think it's changing in the sense that technology has disrupted everything. So now the people that are actually exploding,

and we talked about this last night a bit, are one, they're not really attached to major corporations that are just trying to make a quick buck off of them. They're in charge of their own trajectory with career, and they don't have to make the music so dark. And so I think there's a shift happening right now in music. And I'm not saying it's a shift towards revival per se,

but at the very least, what I grew up on and what my son is growing up on is a huge difference. Even the biggest artists aren't saying the things that they were saying in the 90s. Like I went and saw Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg, the Chronic Tour at the San Diego Sports Arena when I was like nine. I was like the only white kid there on someone's shoulders and it's just complete debauchery,

smoking weed, women flashing their boobs, like craziness. My son's exposure, even on a mainstream level, like even if you look at whoever Drake or like it's not what Snoop was saying in 93 and 94. It's still dark. And now there's a whole other class of artists rising up from my buddy Nick D to Paul Russell to guys like Indie Tribe, John Keith, Connor Price, Forrest Frank, Jake. They're totally the antithesis of everything that kind of hip hop is known for,

but they're making great music and it's wholesome and it's positive and it's moving the needle. And a lot of it is independent. There's not a big corporation behind it. There's no, if Christians want great art, then support Christians who make great art and you'll get more of it. And it's really that simple.

So I think there's been this tendency to like flee the arts and flee the media instead of leaning into the arts and the media and saying, how can we redeem this to the glory of God? So I think there's a shift happening. That's fascinating. I'm so glad I asked you that question. But I mean, certain musical genres

lead to a certain feeling, eh? So like you can't imagine a very heavy metal song singing about the beauty of autumn, right? Something like that. I mean, maybe it exists, but it doesn't lend itself to that. It lends itself more to kind of the middle finger to the established and that kind of thing. Is rap similar in that way?

It kind of provokes an emotion and lyrics that are more degenerate, more easily line up with it? It can, it can, but it could also be very sentimental. So if you think of, maybe your audience isn't familiar, but you go back and listen to Tupac's, Dear Mama, and it'll tear you up. I don't think I've heard one Tupac song in my entire life. We're gonna listen to some Tupac after this.

So Tupac's Dear Mama is a beautiful song. And it's just about growing up as a poor kid and seeing a mom that's addicted to drugs and the challenges that she's got to go through. And it's a beautiful song. And this is at the peak of the gangster rap era. Right? So there's these moments, I mean, you listen to one of the ways I went from being an atheist to a theist was because of Tupac and DMX, because they would have these hardcore albums,

but then there would be these moments where they're reflecting and they're talking about God. DMX used to do these albums and the end of the album was him crying out and praying to Jesus. The whole album would just be complete debauchery and just craziness. And then the last song, the heavenly father, come to you in Jesus name. And he would just do these crazy prayers and it would go into like a song to Jesus crying out to Jesus. And it was really fascinating to see that. So there's always been this overlap between faith and hip hop. It's just the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh

are going to completely take it to the most logical conclusion, which is hedonism. Live for yourself, you know, be your own God. So there's this tension all throughout. You listen to the... And these guys, I mean, Tupac was 25 when he died, you know, and you go back and you listen to some of the stuff he was saying. It was very, it was very profound. There's a lot of stuff that was really wrong as well and sinful. Um, but I think rap is not just a sound. Rap has soul,

rap has gospel, rap has funk, rap has just so many combinations on the musical soundtrack to it. So yes, you can listen to some music and it gets you hyped up for a game, for a football game, for a basketball game. But it could also make you reflect and think about your your your mother and how awesome she was in overcoming the struggles of a single parent. You know, so it's it's the soundscape is different. I'm not sure if that's making sense. Yeah, I think it makes sense.

But I'm even thinking sometimes I'll work out and I'll listen to heavy metal, like Christian heavy metal. But even the Christian heavy metal, it's not using praise and worship lyrics, but just shouting them. Rather, it's talking about spiritual warfare and things like that, because the music lends itself to that kind of violent, those violent lyrics. Does something similar happen in rap and hip hop where it has to be more? Not all of it. Like it would depend on again. So now within hip hop, there's sub genres, there's different, you know, so there's stuff that definitely is like more.

Pull this out a little bit. Sure. Yeah, there's definitely sub genres that are more hardcore and like get people hyped up. There's sub genres that are, there's like an overlap right now of like a worship rap genre. If you look at what Forrest Frank is doing, it's very worshipful. I don't know how else to say it. And so it's simple enough

where my three-year-old can remember it, but it's creative enough where I as a grown man can appreciate it. And so there's a wide spectrum of that. But there is stuff that'll get you hyped. I mean, you go back to a lot of the early 2000s records, a lot of the DMX and the 50 cent records, and they'll definitely get you pumped up.

And then that's what we would play before our basketball games, right? Is the tricky part is, I don't know, I don't think people know that this is cosplay. I don't think people know that this this is a this is cosplay. I don't think people back then it was cosplay. These guys weren't really out there killing everyone. Right. So you suspend your disbelief just like you're watching a movie. Right. The issue is then the art becomes life and that and that's what we saw happen.

And then there's a huge amount of these rappers that tragically passed, whether from violent deaths or from overdoses. And it's sad, but again, I'm hopeful that there's a shift happening. And I don't think any genre of music or any tone or any aesthetic is beyond God using it for his glory, directly or indirectly. So God used DMX and Tupac,

while DMX and Tupac were really far gone in terms of their lifestyle, but that God can do that in an intentional way. So with guys like Lecrae and Reach Records, just like Israel plundered Egypt and the Church Fathers plundered Greek philosophy, we can do the same. That's right. We can, yeah, there's three ways we can do the same and reclaim it. That's right. Yeah, there's three ways we can interact with culture. One is to receive different aspects. So if you're coming to my Armenian barbecue, that's good culture.

You can just come hang out, the food, the history, right? You can just receive it. Then there's other parts where we have to reject. There's aspects of probably every culture that we go, wait a minute, no, no, no, no, no, this is pagan, this is hedonism, this is bad, we gotta reject these parts. But then there's aspects of culture that we can redeem onto the glory of God.

And so I would say, knowing where to categorize, are we receiving it, are we rejecting it, or are we redeeming it? And I think what people do is they'll hypergeneralize something like hip hop, and they'll just go, oh, we just gotta reject that, it's bad, it's all bad. Instead of saying, whoa, saying, whoa, hold on, what aspects of it can we receive?

So like the 80s origins of it really started as rent parties in the projects in the Bronx, meaning somebody below on funds. And so the community would get together, they'd have a party and they'd raise money to help someone make their rent. That's a good thing. They're coming together communally and they're trying to help someone that's struggling. That's something we can receive, right? The festive aspect of that. Then there's aspects that we

absolutely have to reject. The objectifying women and the violence, all that has to be rejected. But then there's other parts that we can redeem. We could say, okay, this this some of this has been used negatively But we can take it and we can redeem it to the glory of God to make it an instrument For ushering in beauty and goodness and revelation of truth. No, that's great. Now. I'm sure there's people who say to you Yeah, I listen to rap that has debaucherous lyrics that glorifies fornication and violence But I that doesn't mean it affects me. So I can listen to that and be fine with it. I can make that sort of mental separation between what they're saying.

And I just listen to it because I like I like the beat. I like how they rap. What advice would you give to someone like that is trying to be a Christian is saying that sort of thing. I used to say that if I'm if I'm being honest with you, I used to say that, hey, you know, I can compartmentalize this and this is okay because it doesn't really have an effect on me. I would challenge that presupposition.

Does it really not have an effect on you? Because if the soundtrack of your life is something that's the antithesis of your worldview, does that really not affect you? That would be my first question. Because if I'm being honest in hindsight, there was definitely stuff that affected me and my mood would be different when I would listen to worship music or gospel music. I would feel different. I would think different.

And so the soundtrack of our life should reflect our worldview. Secondly, I would say, even if it doesn't affect you, I know guys that say, hey, I just listened to this when I'm in the gym. I want to get pumped up. I'm listening to Future. I'm listening to Fill in a Blank. OK, are you OK with consistently funding corporations and funding music? Because every time you listen to something, now it's a click into something. So every time you're consuming a song,

you are telling Spotify or Apple Music, yes, I like this song, and I'm voting with my dollars, though it'd be at a small percentage, whether that's YouTube ad dollars or Spotify, you're paying for your subscription. Every time you consume something, you're actually pushing it forward in the algorithm. So this is different where, in my day,

people would buy a CD and we would burn a CD or buy a tape and we would dub a tape. This is now you're actually advocating for the consumption of something that's deplorable, and again, the antithesis of your faith. So even if it's not affecting you, are you okay with pushing that forward in the algorithm? And do you think that that's wholesome and helpful?

Because every time you're not consuming something that's reflecting your worldview, you're pushing something that's the opposite. Whereas you can find great Christian artists, maybe that aren't making Christian music, but they are Christians, living Christians, loving their wives in churches, and help push that and it's clean and it's wholesome and it's stuff that if you reward that in the algorithm, more of that will get pushed in the algorithm and more of that will get made.

And at some point, what's happening with the major label corporations is, first of all, many of my buddies are like checking out, like, why would why do I need a label? That's just a terrible loan. And the way that the whole world, that's that world is set up as the most predatory business practices I've ever heard of. It's, and I can tell you about it, it's really crazy. But at some point these labels and these corporations will have to go, you know what, there's something to this Christian music thing, we have to lean into it. Just like we're seeing with The Chosen, just like we're seeing with Jesus Revolution, just like we're seeing with Lionsgate now doing a whole package deal to do more Christian films, you're going to see that with the music industry. But

the funny part is you don't really even need the music industry anymore because people have gotten hip to how bad and how predatory these practices are. How are they predatory? So you know how an advance works within a different type of situation. Not with book deals in the past. Yeah, so the music industry is functioning similarly to that where say an artist,

I'm just gonna throw out really rough numbers. Say an artist has a 20% royalty rate. That 20% royalty rate is how they're going to make money off of their music after they pay back their advance. Now say their advance, their recording budget, their marketing budget, all in is a million dollars. We're just using really rough numbers. So that's a million dollars they get. Maybe half of that, maybe a third goes in their pocket, a third goes to making the album, a third goes to marketing,

which is using rough numbers. So now they're down a million dollars, they're a million dollars in the hole. Okay. They only recoup from their 20% slither. And then there's other stuff that gets backdoored into that budget that they've gotten. So we're out to dinner,

all of a sudden they're taking you to the most fancy restaurant, that's added. And you don't even know that you're paying for this stuff. So that debt is going to get inflated. It's all in the footnotes of the contract. Yeah. So you're paying for stuff you didn't even know about. There was an artist named John Bellion, who's actually a believer. And he talked about how being on tour and all of a sudden he's looking at these itemized things and it's like, why do we need 300 bundles of toilet paper from Costco?

Like, what do I, we don't need that much toilet paper. Why are we paying this much for catering? Why are we doing this much? And so a bunch of weird stuff is getting itemized. You don't even know what it is. And you are on the hook to paying that back from your 20% slither. And that only your 20% slither is paying that back.

So you get a million dollars, but you have to generate them $5 million because 20% of $5 million is how you rec paying that back. So you get a million dollars, but you have to generate them $5 million because 20% of $5 million is how you recoup that amount. So you spent a million dollars, you made them $5 million, you've paid to pay back that million, and then you're out of debt, and then you can start seeing residual royalties.

You don't own the masters, you oftentimes don't own your own publishing and what it does is it keeps artists in that cycle of debt. So say you spent a million dollars, but you generated a label three million dollars. Well, that's great. By any other metric in business, we would say, hey, we started this venture, we put a million dollars in, we got three millions back. Like that's a great flip. That's amazing. Well, you spent three million, you only made, you know, off of your, you made a million, you're still in debt. You still owe them money. And so now they're tacking that onto the next album and then the next album and then the next album.

That's why so many artists have gone broke and filed for bankruptcy and all that sort of stuff. And now they're not just doing that with the music and the master exploitation, they're doing that to your tours, they're doing that to your brand deals. They're doing that. So they want a slice of everything without contributing to everything.

And it just becomes this really sinister way of exploiting people. And a lot of folks, again, remember that on on ramp to doing music is so cheap. It doesn't require much to start rapping. So these are folks that are coming from impoverished areas. They're not the most astute to how these deals are structured. And you tell someone, hey, we're gonna put $100,000 in your pocket.

And they're like, my life has changed. But they don't know that they're really hedging their bets. It's the 20 80 principle. 20% of the artists generate 80% of the revenue. So they're just signing for the sake of market share. They're just scoping up the market share and then artists would get shelved, they'll never release music

and they just stay stuck in that cycle. I know you were saying that because of TikTok and YouTube, we may not need the music industry, but I have to think that there's going to be a way that bigger companies who might have bad motives are gonna somehow infiltrate this and it won't be as gate free as we had hoped. So how are they doing it? They've already done it. They got in bed with TikTok to prioritize their artists. They're

now shifting to a distribution model. So now that more and more artists are going independent, they upload to Tunecore or DistroKid. And now they're saying, hey, you can release your stuff through Atlantic. You can release your stuff. So artists that's independent, that has no ties will be like, oh, I can have a release through Universal or through Atlantic or through these other companies. And now they're trying to, and they're not doing any services, they're not providing anything. And now they want to just take a percentage of all the independent stuff. So they're already doing it. They've already infiltrated those worlds. Universal had a big standoff with TikTok, I'd say about a year ago,

because they felt like they weren't compensating their artists fairly. And so there was a bunch of artists signed to Universal that couldn't put music on TikTok. And that was their primary marketing vehicle. So it's already happening. They're already, they're already, it's just like Napster in the early 2000s, right?

The industry is disrupted again because I don't need distribution. What do I need distribution for? I don't need your marketing. I could market myself. I can make my own music videos. I can shoot my own TikTok videos. I can just go directly and do my own touring with Alive Nation or whoever. Why do I need a major label? So now the disruption is happening. So now they're trying to cannibalize and be the new independent distributor. It's really dark. That's amazing. So what kind of advice would you have for people who are trying to get into the music industry right now, if that's the case? Don't. Okay. No, I would say if you if you're okay

with seeing yourself as a content creator, then then and then you make music. A content creator that makes music in that paradigm, meaning that you are primarily visual, you're visual driven, not audio driven. meaning that you are primarily visual, you're visual driven, not audio driven. So if you can be visual driven and you can make music that will convert on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube Shorts and you're okay with counting the cost on that and you're good and there's an end objective

that you're trying to reach, then this is a great time. It's the best of times, it's the worst of times, right? So yeah, if you could do it that way, then do it that way. But it's very difficult, if you're approaching this for like the sake of art, and you're like, I wanna make art, that's not what this is any longer.

You could build a very, very, very, very, very, very, very cult-like following, but that's not, it's gonna be very difficult to get that to sustain you, right? So it's like the thousand fan rule. If you get a thousand people to pour into your music, a hundred dollars a year, you can make a hundred thousand dollars, that's still possible,

but you gotta be really intentional and calculated to find those thousand people because there's so many things fighting for our attention right now. So I would say if someone's okay with being visual first and they have the look and they have the ability or to develop the look and to understand social media, then great, do it. It's easier than ever to make music and distribute music

and get music out there. I mean, when I started, I couldn't imagine being able to have my music accessible on everybody's phone in the world or everyone who has a phone. That's phenomenal. That didn't exist. You needed to be in record stores you needed to write even to get on iTunes initially was difficult but everything has changed and so if they understand that it's content driven that meaning make visual content that's

compelling and disruptive and the music is good then yeah and it's it's it's a low entry level right now. But if they're thinking this is art and this is like their thing they're gonna use over, it's very difficult to do that. I wanna tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding.

Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hallow.com slash Matt Fradd. I use it, my family uses it.

It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music, including Mylofi. Hallow has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out.

Halo.com slash Matt Fradd. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. What does selling out look like? Not just in the music industry, but on YouTube as well, you know, because people want to grow their YouTube channels. And I think, well, there's an easy way to do that. I got an idea for a YouTube channel. I want you to travel around

the world and get punched in the face and all the big major kind of a tourist attractions Biford Towie get punched in the face. I traveled around the world to get punched in the face. Yeah. There you go. Great You'll do way better than points for the coin You know I mean there are things that you can do to be famous that will make you miserable and then there are things that you can Do that, you know aren't gonna do as well as other things But this is what you're passionate about and yet yet at the same time, you want to respect the platform so that what you're doing that you find meaningful

is reaching the most amount of people. How do you personally navigate that, maybe with your music and now with YouTube? That's a great question, and there's a great tension that we face, because you have to make stuff that's palatable and consumable for enough people. And then you also don't want to compromise what it is you're doing.

So I think quote unquote selling out would be to lean into something that works even if you don't believe in it because it worked one time. This is called audience capture. I think the ultimate to me, the ultimate way of selling out is the audience got to me I made this this thing this video and and I don't even know if I all the way agree with all of it But I made this video Blew up so I'm just gonna keep making the same video over and over and over and over again And then the audience captures you instead of you capturing the audience so now you have an audience that you may disagree with and

You just have to keep feeding the machine. To me, that's what the most tactical way of selling out on YouTube is that. And I think any of us can be liable of that. You get something that works and all of a sudden everybody is into it. And it's like, but is that what you set out to do? So I think one, you have to be clear on your vision. Two, you have to make sure that just because something works

doesn't mean you keep working it. Something may work, but you don't necessarily make sure that just because you, something works doesn't mean you keep working it. Something may work, but you don't necessarily keep working that thing because you will attract an audience that is gonna be very apprehensive if you show your hand and do anything else, right? I think that the easiest example I could point to is that there's been a lot of folks

that have came over to the conservative side and they just kept making the same video over and over again. The libs are bad, the libs are dumb, dunk on the libs, look they just kept making the same video over and over again. The libs are bad, the libs are dumb, dunk on the libs, look how stupid the libs are. And I'm sure they believe some of that to an extent, but if everything is the same video over and over again, I don't know how, like, is that why you got on the platform?

You know, to just say how bad the other side is? These guys, instead, are you actually presenting anything of beauty and virtue and goodness to the world and trying to point people to something bigger? So in our case, we got a really big spark with making videos highlighting the inadequacies of celebrity pastors. That really worked for us two years ago. And then about a year and a half ago, we said, we're not doing any more celebrity pastors videos. We might have one here, they're sprinkled out, but generally speaking, we're going to try to find something that someone said that was good. And we're

going to celebrate the good things people said. And we're going to make our reaction videos not about tearing people down. This is exactly what you were saying about rap earlier. Like it appeals to the pride of life. This is exactly what those kind of videos do. That why they work so well and now you're trying to do with your channel It sounds like what you think maybe some of the hip-hop world is doing by moving away from that negativity and then trying to sell What's actually beautiful which is sometimes a much more difficult thing. Yeah, absolutely. So I Am intentionally looking for things on the internet what to react to that I love that I think is doing good.

So I will react to your clip with Jonathan Rumi. And we were like, man, Jonathan nailed it. I loved what he said here. This is good. This is awesome. Great job, Jonathan. Great, Matt. Great, Pineswood Queens.

Great. And one, I just think it's better for your soul to listen to that video versus like, he said something here that I didn't like, or I disagreed with this, or did you see, right? So one, I just think it's better for your soul to listen to that video versus like, he said something here that I didn't like, or I disagreed with this, or did you see, right? So one, I just think it's better for your soul. Two, it highlights other creators, it highlights other channels,

and it highlights a broader community of people that in my opinion, I don't like the idea of competition. I prefer the idea of collaboration and community. I'm not competing with any of my contemporaries. We're collaborators and we're colleagues and we're in community together, we're learning from each other.

Yeah, like, Ruslan is not my competitor, like Planned Parenthood is my competitor. Hello. You know, like these evil industries that are trying to drag souls to hell, they're my competitor, you're my brother. Yeah, yeah, and so I think that keeps the ego in check. So the more I could point attention to other creators,

the more my ego is in check to say, this thing isn't about me. I'm just a guy that God just breathed on this thing. And let me be generous with my platform, with the people I highlight. And if someone watches my reaction video of you and Jonathan, and they discover the chosen, which we've heard a lot of people discover the chosen

from my channel, fall in love, read their Bible more, get back in church, or someone discovers Pineswood Aquinas because I reacted to it and they get into your channel and into your community. To me, that's a net positive. It's actually a great way to spread positivity around the internet because if I do a reaction to you or Brett Cooper or somebody and they hear about it, they feel like honored that I would speak highly of them, even if there's a couple of points I might take issue with. And that feels, that's nice. This is lovely. And there's like a network of people who are all trying to buoy each other up rather than tear each other down. Yes. I did a couple of reactions of a creator named Metatron. He is an Italian medieval

historian kind of creator. And one of the things that blew him away was like, this is one of the first videos I've seen that someone just didn't tear me down or rip me apart. Like, this was like a real wholesome video and you like celebrated me. And I was like, yeah. You know, and then I, we later found out

that he's a Christian and he's, was really just excited to talk about his faith more, and he's been talking about his faith more. Not that I'm saying that was the catalyst for that, but it was like, yes, keep talking about your faith. This is so cool, I didn't know you were, so I highlighted his testimony on my channel, and now he seems to be a bit more bold

with the way he's talking about his faith. And again, I'm not saying I'm taking credit for that, but Metatron, that was just a guy I liked. I didn't know he was a believer, but he said something, I forgot what video we reacted to, and I was like, man, this is good stuff. Let's celebrate that. And so then doors open,

and you start building relationships with people, and you can do collaborations that way. Not to say that that's the end goal, but yeah, I think overall, to come back to your question, that to me is how you avoid selling out and Not sliding into just feeding the algorithm, you know is hey we're going to celebrate and champion goodness and if we celebrate champion goodness and What are you actually offering to the world right because it can't just be That's bad. Like if that's your concept your constant strategy is that's bad

It's like oh man versus hey, this is good. God's ways are good. God's design for humanity is good. God's design for sex is good. God's design for for for our our lives is good and his ways are good. And this is the misunderstanding that they're actually perverting this thing. But let me point you back to the goodness, you know, so I think that's like been the constant strategy, the the past, but let me point you back to the goodness. So I think that's been the content strategy

the past, I'd say the past year and a half. And I just overall feel better about everything. And what's cool is because you have a small team with you, once you say that to them, we're gonna change directions. There's gonna be some accountability there. Yeah, and it was scary to be honest with you. Because there's a lot to make fun of in our Protestant celebrity pastor world. there's a lot to make fun of in our Protestant celebrity pastor world.

There's a lot to roast. And sometimes rightfully so, and I'm not judging the channels that still do that, because I think some of that does serve a purpose, but I just, I couldn't. And I started meeting a lot of pastors, a lot of celebrity pastors or megachurch pastors, like not celebrities on a national platform,

but just like within, they're running big organizations. And I was like, these are good guys. These are good guys. They're trying to do the best with what they have. They're helping people. And let me highlight some of these guys that I'm actually meeting. Many of them aren't on social media at all. Some of them don't have public profiles at all, but they're pastoring these massive churches. And let me highlight what they're doing and the good that they're doing. Will Barron This is something I keep coming back to, and that is like if you and I in the context of friendship,

one of us was to say something that was a bit rough around the edges, or maybe we didn't even really mean or something you totally disagree with. In the context of friendship, you might be like, well, hang on. And you might correct me. And I might be like, well, yeah, that is that's kind of what I meant, I guess. You know, and we can arrive at a conclusion that we kind of both basically agree on, or maybe we'll disagree, but it'll still be charitable. Whereas online, you listen to somebody say one thing

and you just pick that out and then just, yeah. Yeah, well, you told me earlier- Dream over the coals. A third of the comments on your own channel, you said, are negative about you. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, that's fascinating to me. That's fascinating to me, which I have, I just,

I think what is going on in people's lives where they're going online and then they're needing to unload Whatever thing they're having on you or on me. Yeah, let me not enable that in any way shape or form Well, it's funny because you would never say it to a we all know this This is so maybe it's not even worth saying but I remember people just in the comments section saying something very like it's this isn't even that bad, right? But they were talking about how red Jordan Peterson looked like wow, I got looks so red. That's very whatever. But you would never no one would ever go up to him after a conference and say hey, you look really red Like we just act differently when there's a screen in front of us. It's like when we're on the highway There's another screen in front of us and we act like idiots. Yeah, so

I do occasionally dip into the comments, but I would say increasingly I don't look at them because I'm much more interested in what like Ruslan and Trent Horn and Jimmy Akin and people I respect think about the content I'm creating. Then like, you know, there might be wonderful people in the comment section, but there also might be trolls. And so I think if you were to change your direction based on the comments, you just run around in circles. You got to be. Yeah. And again, there'll be certain videos I make that may be true at the time. Here's, here's a real example. I,

I generally try not to talk about politics. All of our content is driven by what our community's asking me. Hey, what do you think about this? Hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And so here's two examples. Example number one, I react, people, what do you think about the Trump-Harris debate?

I react, hey, I don't like Harris, but she won that debate. Aw, could you? Ah, you're a show for the libs. No, I just said I dislike her policies. Ah, you're a shill for the libs. No, I just said I dislike her policies. And then Walt's Vance debate. I think Vance did amazing. I think he did way better.

That was the performance I wanted from Trump. Oh, you're just a conservative, you just hate all libs. And I'm like, this is what I mean. So it's like I- So you get something similar. Yes. I think this is how, I'm like, this is what I mean. So it's like, I- So you get something similar. Yes. I think this is how, I think this, I mean, certainly I'm unlikable to some degree, to some people.

And I'm sure you are as well to some people, to some degree. And so that accounts for some of the negative comments, fair enough, that's fine. But I also think it's because you and I are addressing all sorts of topics. Like if I got on this channel and every video, I just criticize Pope Francis loudly or praised Pope Francis loudly or whatever.

If I just took one sort of slither and just hammered that, I would garner to myself a very faithful audience that would tell me how great I was and that I'm annoying sometimes. But if I'm going to have people like Trent Horn one week and then you one week and then Gavin Ortland one week and it's like, what are you? It's, yeah, it's, I think it's frustrating to people who just want one very clear direction and one very clear message. So it wouldn't surprise me that you also deal with that.

Yeah, and well, here's a beautiful part though, I think. In the light of you said, hey, you can go viral by just saying I'm gonna go to Landmarks and get punched in the face. I wonder who's gonna to pick up that channel. Seriously, the flip side to that is that doesn't build a ton of depth with people. So you might have a massive, huge top of funnel audience. And this is what TikTok essentially has become.

They have TikTok is what massive top of funnel audiences. But when they do meetups or when they do an event, no one shows up. You know, versus, hey, I'm not just gonna create an echo chamber for you to exist in. We're actually gonna critically think about these ideas. I'm not just gonna tell you what you wanna hear. Libs bad, Trump great.

No, there's things Trump does and says that I disagree with. And if it comes up, I'm gonna tell you what I think about it. That I think actually creates one, a better culture and community, but two, it keeps people out of the echo chamber, and three, it builds more depth with an audience that says, yeah, I don't agree with everything Matt says, but I genuinely like what he says, and I'm buying in, and I'm learning more about his worldview,

and his positions, and his idiocy, and I think that builds more, more depth and gets more people that are truly here for the ethos of what it is that we're doing. You know, you've got kids, I've got kids. Sometimes you can tell your kid a thousand times, don't do this thing. And maybe it's dangerous, not terribly dangerous, but he might get a little bit hurt. And then eventually you think, okay,

he's not going to listen to me. So he's just going to have to learn his lesson. So I'm not going to say it. I'm going to let the swing hit him in the head or something. And then he'll learn. I think culture is sometimes like that. And it sucks that it's like that. But I feel like if I was out there in the eighties proclaiming the evil of pornography in the way that I do it today, which I think is quite convincing with statistics and logic, I don't think I would have moved the needle at all It's I sometimes wonder if we had to bury our heads into that dumpster and eat long enough as a culture to then vomit it All out to now get to a point where people like maybe you shouldn't be masturbating to your screen Just just saying and now it seems like yeah, that seems very unhealthy

Whereas if you said that in the 80s, someone would have called you a prude likewise with rap maybe being degenerate. Now it's unoriginally to be degenerate. So maybe now we're swinging back in the other direction. Same thing with YouTube content, right? And so on and so forth. Which sounds a little defeatist. It kind of sounds like, well, you're not going to change culture, so don't even try.

These are waves that come and go. I still think there's something to there, but. I think here's what I think. I think that's a very great observation from 80s to porn and the rap. I think the best way to change culture is not by trying to change culture, it's by building better culture. So I think if we pull people into a world where, hey, we love our wives and we lead our homes and our children are respectful and they get the right amount of,

I love you as you are, but I want you to be great. And we create communities and foster culture that's better. We live a better story and a better narrative, which I believe that's the whole point of the gospel in the message of Jesus in the cross is, hey, death is not the end, it can overcome. Oh, and by the way, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

We're praying that we get a peace of heaven on this side of eternity so we can be the hands and feet of Jesus, so that we can care for the least of these, make the most of our time, sound, treasure, and giving people like helpful guardrails on how to live their life. I think when we build better culture and live a better story, that to me is what's going to move the needle. And I think unfortunately in many circles, I can't speak to your Catholic circles, but within my circles, it's a lot of just reactionary, they're bad, look at the bad,

instead of like equipping people to be the good. And so, you know, when people are like, hey, I started watching your channel, I got me a prayer journal, I'm 120 days sober, I got my second prayer journal, I write in it every day, I do, I read my Bible every day, and this has been a part of my sobriety journal, and now I'm developing useful skills, and I'm in a local church, and I'm on my second prayer journal, I write in it every day, I do, I read my Bible every day, and this has been a part of my sobriety journal, and now I'm developing useful skills,

and I'm in a local church, and I'm healthy, and I'm losing weight, and I'm exercising for the first time, like we're building better culture, or hey, I didn't know that being able to provide in this way for my family was even possible, but I listened to this and I got equipped, and now my marriage is better, because now we're building better culture

by giving people the resources. And the things that you and I probably have done behind the scenes for decades, we're now able to kind of impart some of that wisdom into people's lives and they can take it and say, hey, my heart is, I don't want someone that have to go through a decade of struggling with pornography and wandering

in the wilderness on how to get this thing off of them. I wanna compress that time for people and say, hey, learn from my scars. Let me show you my scars. I'm gonna be open about it. And let's compress that time for you so that you don't have to stay stuck. So we put together a thing called mastermyhabits.com.

It's a course that me and my therapist did a couple of years ago on just a simple way to help people, hey, this is what habits are, this is how addictions are bad, this is what this does, this is how you find freedom, and this is a licensed therapist walking you through it so that people can get out of that cycle of pornography, so that people can get out of these self-destructive cycles.

And again, I think that's how we change cultures by building better culture. Yeah, if I just try to tell you what's true, you can argue with it. But if I show you something that's beautiful, that can sometimes be overwhelming in a good sense. I was at the beach recently and my children, one of my daughters said, you can tell they're Christian, dad. And she's like, because they're happy and they dress modestly. And that what she said there, it may sound like it to cynical ears, but it wasn't a condemnation of other people. She actually saw people who are happy and dress modestly and said, you can tell that they're Christian.

And I think she's right. When I see a family that's intact and they're just sort of joyful, you think, OK, Christian, Mormon, Jewish, like they they they're living for a higher power, you know, for what they consider to be a power. Yeah, that's good. I was at Great Wolf Lodge and terrifying place. You don't like it. I said to my wife 10 minutes in, I think this has turned me off sex forever.

Why? Because there's so many unattractive, fat, almost naked people walking around in front of me. I almost came to despise the body and became gnostic. That wasn't my experience. But see you're in San Diego, you're all the beautiful people out there. Yeah, I don't know about that. But no, this is what I noticed. I noticed a couple things. So, this is what I know. I started like, I kind of like listening to people and people watching,

and I noticed that there was like an overwhelming influx of people who are Christians. And some of it is what you pointed out, the modesty bit, but others have like, I'm hearing this guy walk by, I'm going to go read my Bible. I got to find somewhere to read my Bible. I got to go to this. And I'm thinking, okay, you know, the ability to get to a place in life where you can even do something as simple as take your family on a little trip is going to, that stuff is going to get harder and harder in this economy and with everything that's happening. And the folks who can get ahold of like God's wisdom, those are the folks that are gonna be able to enjoy a simple thing like going to Great Wolf Lodge. And so it was this interesting influx

of people of faith there based on me actually overhearing how they're talking, the things they're talking about and seeing some of them break away. I mean, like, I gotta go, because I was there in the morning waiting for food and I looked around, I was like, multiple people there, they're reading their Bible, multiple people. I'm like, this is weird. This is interesting, you know, that this is where we are. And so I think the best example that we can give is just to change life. Does Jesus actually change us? Does the things we believe transform who we are

from the inside out? Speaking of changed lives, you referenced that you were an atheist at one point. Did you grow up a Christian and then decide to become an atheist and come back again? Or how did that story play out? I grew up under Soviet Union communism. So Azerbaijan was the country I was born in. That was a part of the Soviet Union communism. So Azerbaijan was the country I was born in.

That was a part of the Soviet Union. So Azerbaijan and Armenia are neighbors. A lot of Armenians lived in Azerbaijan. A lot of Arsies lived in Armenia. The Soviet Union, much like most superpowers, kind of made a mess of the way they cut those boundaries up and some of that stuff in terms of little little parts of Azerbaijan. So I grew up under Soviet Union.

I don't recall us ever going to church. There was maybe one conversation about God that I remember what my grandfather, he was a he was a English, and one conversation about God before the age of six, and then as we came to America, the place where everyone gathered was the Armenian church, a part of the Oriental Orthodox stream. So no God at all, come to America, and now we're all going to church

because that was the community hub and then everyone is like you don't know your ethnic identity, Armenia was the first Christian nation and all this like history. So then it's more like images of Jesus on the cross and Virgin Mary and just the story. I'm like why is he on the cross? Like what is going on? No one really sat me down and told me the gospel. They were just kind of like, you're gonna get christened and you're gonna be an altar boy and you're gonna have a Godfather,

which for some reason Godfather's in the Armenian church, like a super big deal. So I went through that whole process. At the same time, my mom and my dad split up and a couple of things happened. One, my dad got remarried and the church remarried him, but according to my mom, he was still technically married to her

and they were never officially divorced. That's her story of it. How could the church remarry your dad? He's a polygamist and she stops going, completely stops going. I still continue because again, this was just like the only cultural hub that we had. So it was like in my neighborhood,

all the black kids, hip hop, that and then church on Sundays. And then as I'm an altar boy, what ended up happening was there was a couple older altar boys, some like eight, seven, eight, nine at this time. And there was some kids that were like early teens, like 13, 14.

And unfortunately they ended up sexually assaulting me. And that completely like caused a big mess in our community because it was framed as if I was the instigator of it. And that really did like a number on me. Did you believe that? I didn't know what to believe. I just remember one time someone asked me if I was gay.

And I was like, what is that? Cause the word, so the word gay in, in, in Russian kind of sounds like the word blue. And I was like, what? I like that color, you know, like baby blue, glue boy, I think is the word. I was like, I like that color. And they were like, oh, well, so-and-so was saying,

and so long story, somehow this thing came out and it was like a big thing with all the parents and the older kids made it seem like I was the one that like initiated all this when it was really them that like brought over gay porn and like just showed me all this stuff. And so I'm like seven or eight and the way the church handled it or not handled it and the way the broader community I definitely felt very scapegoated and it was at that point I really pulled away from my ethnic identity and pulled away from my church affiliation and went deeper into the hip hop

and trying to be like a gang member and like. So you're living with your mom at the time. So you're no longer going to church at that point. No, well, I was for a little bit when she stopped going because it was walking distance. But then after this incident. Then after this incident, I stopped going altogether and I kind of take a pretty deep dive

into just complete Just debauchery but breaking into home selling weed smoking weed getting drunk. This is all by Like the fifth grade fourth and fifth grade and it kind of all culminated to where I got arrested breaking into a home in I want to say in the fifth grade and I got we were we had a gang leader who was in jail and his girlfriend told us to break into this guy's house who she was messing with because he had money so we can break in, get the money to bail our gang leader out. Crazy stuff, looking back in hindsight. And we got caught and then my mom kind of saw, okay, like he's going off the rails. And thankfully within a year or two, she was able to relocate us to North County,

San Diego. So I grew up in like normal heights, city heights area. And she got us to North County, San Diego, which is like Oceanside Vista, more tamed, more calm or a bit more suburban than where I was at. And yeah. And so that, that functional part from fifth to eighth grade, I would call myself an atheist. There's no God. God doesn't exist. What I was really saying was there's no God. He doesn't exist. And if he does exist, he doesn't love me very much.

That's what I was really saying. And then eighth, ninth grade, just change of environment. My GPA went from like, like low 1.0 ish seventh grade. I thought I flunked seventh grade. I thought I was gonna have to redo seventh grade. So then I got into a different school and it jumped to 3.8 eighth grade, like completely just change of environment.

And then the following year, freshman year, I met a girl who got me going to church and I was already like, oh, Tupac and DMX, they're talking about God. This God thing can't be that bad. I was already kind of shifting from again, like atheist to probably deist. Did you have any arguments for atheism? Did you know what agnostic meant? Just a problem of evil. Like why would you present that to people?

Did you try to evangelize people as it were? Not like evangelize, but if it would come up, I would just be like, why does God allow these things to happen? I was really trying to say why did God allow these things to happen? But I was really trying to say, why did God allow these things to happen to me? Yeah. And then I think the experience bit is what kind of kept me coming back. Like it was just a different experience than I had ever been used to. But then I got into, me and that girl broke up and I started dating a Jehovah's Witness girl.

And I had friends that were Mormon and friends that were Muslim. And I had to work through the apologetics aspect. So I actually got a book by Josh McDowell, my sophomore year, called The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. And that was a really good read on just understanding why Christianity is true. So I wrestled for about a year after going to church. My big issue was, is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus God? Is Jesus God, is he's Yahweh in the flesh? And I had to like sort through that through reading the New Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

And then once I kind of got that sorted out, then I was like, okay, I'm convinced Jesus is who he says he is, he is the beginning of the end, he is Yahweh in the flesh, I'm in. And that was like the end of my sophomore year. Okay. Yeah. Was your mom happy about this change?

No, no. She thought I was like joined a fanatical. I asked. It may seem odd that I asked that to people watching, but the same thing happened to me. That's why I asked. My mom thought I'd joined a cult or something because I was just so happy all of a sudden. Whereas before I was really depressed. You're about the same age, right?

Seventeen. Seventeen, yes. because I was just so happy all of a sudden. Whereas before I was really depressed. You were about the same age, right? 17. 17, yeah, so I think around 17 going into my junior years where I fully surrendered my life to the Lord. And no, she wasn't, she was like, what is this? And why are you going to church? And why are you reading the Bible? I remember I read Jesus Freak. I remember that, I had that.

And it was the story of all the martyrs. And I was like, I'd lay down my life for Jesus. And I was like, I lay down my life for Jesus. And she was like, what are you talking about? That sounds like a cult. Why would, you know, I'm like, no, you don't understand. I think she thought I was saying I would go and go out of my way to become a martyr. And I was just saying, no, I think this is a noble way to die.

You know, this is pretty powerful. And she slowly came around. I mean, it took a while. My mom had a lot of- That's a great book. That brings back so many memories just you saying that. Jesus Christ, I have to get that for my kids to read.

I got that for my sister for her confirmation. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, that was a great book. That was a great book. Yes, short little stories of modern day martyrs for those who are wondering. Yes, and I think there was one about like the first martyr. Like there was one about Steven that was from Axe

and there was other ones. It was great. So I think she didn't like it. And then over time, I mean, she just dealt with a lot of alcoholism, a lot of substance abuse. And so were you an only kid? I was her only son. My dad remarried and had three kids. So I got a brother and sister, the twins. But in your home, it was you and your mom. Just me and my mom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. San Diego. Yeah, me and my mom, pretty rough. Just she had to work, like she would work nights.

And so the only guys that, so that was great. Cause I just go out and hang out with the gang members. And then they would be like, hey man, like you need to go in the house. Like you don't need to be out here with us. I was like, but I want to be in there. Like now dude, like you actually have a mom that loves you. Like your life is going to go a different direction.

So all along there would be people that would like say these things to me, there would be people that would be like, you know, the manager of our apartment complex got radically saved, her name was Cherie. And Cherie would be like, you're gonna do great things for the Lord someday, you know, and then Charles got converted.

And when I had to do my community service, I did it with Charles at her church. You're gonna do great things for the Lord someday. And I was like, there's no God, what are you guys talking about? And sure enough, fast forward later, almost to the T, the things they were saying to me. I just want to take a moment to give a shout out to all single moms who are doing their best. God bless your mom. I mean, as kids, we have no idea the pressures that are on

our parents. The fact that she was willing to uproot her life, sell or stop renting her house and move to another place for the good of you. And God bless them. Yeah. Yeah. And she's my mom's last right before the pandemic, she fell and broke her shoulder pretty bad. And we were kind of estranged at that point. And then we there was no one else. So she called me. So I came around and long story short, within the last couple of years, probably within a year of that, she got sober.

She stopped drinking. She stopped smoking cigarettes, went to church with me on Easter Sunday, kind of pops in a church every now and then. And so she's completely, you know, she sends me photos of like her at the gym now. And I'm like, this is so funny. Yeah, so she's, she's had a really big change in her life. So was there a, was there a specific moment

when you gave your life to the Lord? Was it an altar call type of thing or what was it? There was multiple, like I was the guy like every week, I put my hand up every week and it was yeah. All for the altar call, is that what that means? Yeah, yeah, well it was really an altar call, it was like one of those like, say this prayer in your heart, raise your hand

if you wanna accept Jesus, say it. So that, I mean like, I'd say 30 weeks a year, I would be the guy. But I would say the moment I fully surrendered, there was two moments. One is when me and the Christian girl broke up the end of my junior year, because I got back with her and broke up and it was a mess.

It was a really toxic relationship. So when me and her broke up, that was like, okay, I'm done. And then subsequently a couple of weeks later, I attended one of those crusades, a Myles McPherson crusade. And I made like a public declaration and I came forward, and that was the summer of 2002, yeah, the summer of 2002, right before my senior year.

Praise God. Yeah, that was two years after my conversion. There's so much I love about Protestants, and I don't say that in a pandering patronizing way. I actually mean it. Someone said the other day, like, as a Protestant, I really enjoy your content. I'm like, well, I love you.

And I promise I'm not saying that just for the clicks. I like the clicks. But there's so much, like I love, like we don't have altar calls, right? But I've been to a couple of, I don't know what you call them, Protestant evangelical events where they'll do that. There's something so powerful about having somebody

stand up in front of their peers and go forward. We do that in some kind of Catholic conferences that we have here at Steubenville. They'll do about, I think it's like 50 to 80,000 teens a year go to these conferences all around the country and they'll do something like if you've never given your life to Christ. So there's stuff like that, but I think we probably learned it from y'all. The other thing I love about Protestants is how you do Bible studies. Now I know we do that, obviously we have Father Mike Schmitz, it's the number one Bible podcast in the world, but I was just at a coffee shop the other day

and I saw two fellas sitting down and this one guy's clearly sort of like discipling him in the word and like I'm looking at them and I know they're not Catholic because they're doing that. Maybe they were, but no, they weren't. And I just, I love that, I love that, that intentionality. Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a, uh, a desire to learn the things of God. For me that was really intensified because I needed all the answers,

but then I ended up just having this really great men's group that we went through the Bible in a year, probably six times, we would get through the whole thing. And then every Monday would come and we'd discuss what were the readings from that day. And so it was very, hey, this is what you're reading. It was a lot of reading, probably about, well, a lot as well, right?

But like three chapters a day. And so, yeah, so we ended up going through that in multiple translations and yeah, just a huge, huge desire to learn the word. Not always. Guidance on how to apply the word and practical means. And I think now that as I'm older, I'm like, okay, I want to fill the gap for folks to, there's so much wisdom in the scriptures, how do we apply it to our

day to day lives, you know? And I, and I hope that, um, if there's a contribution I'm making is that. Like, how do we think and then how do we apply? Yeah. So then I'm sure you've got this question a lot. Have you considered, like after joining YouTube and encountering those different Christians that are out there, have you considered returning to your Orthodox roots? And if not, what's preventing you from that?

Yeah, I've actually went back quite a few times. I find the services beautiful. I love the engagement of all the senses. I love, you know, from the way they light the incense and the smells to even the way our choir was set up. it was really interesting that the choir was behind me on like a balcony. And so the- They weren't the focal point. They weren't the focal point. And I was like, oh, I like this.

And even when they closed out, I think this is, I don't know if this is pre-Easter or post-Easter, but they closed the curtain. They closed the curtain and they do the last closing worship part. And you don't have anyone to look at except all this beautiful art. So it's really cool.

So I think for me it's such a close ethnic tie-in that there's a huge connection there and I get the letters and I love talking about this stuff with my Armenian friends and just the rich history that like Armenia has. From a theological standpoint, I think I could appreciate the tradition while also appreciating the simplicity within the tradition that I'm a part of, of the gospel, of a very mere Christianity approach to the faith, and that being able to scale

Very quickly for people that are perhaps in different parts of the world where we're sending missionaries and that sort of stuff So I think the yes, I flirted with the idea. I went back I've read is there something you find attractive about it. That isn't just the fact that it's your History, is there something else about? I think Protestants don't do the best job of beauty and art. So I think that's very attractive. The beauty, the art, the engaging the senses, I think that's great.

I think there's something cool to be able to say, hey, there's a, we hold to these traditions and they go back, right? However many long, whether there's been developments or not developments, changes, not changes, like I think that's that's pretty beautiful. So I like that aspect of it. I like, I find a lot of people who get it right in a, how do I say this, like a holistic faith, meaning that like in Protestant circles you can still bump into someone that's like, they're pretty on the fringe with their ideology about politics or the world and then they're like still a Christian, whereas like maybe, maybe a selection bias on my part, but I feel like

Catholics tend to have a more congruent, Catholics and Orthodox tend to have a more like congruent worldview. Yeah, I mean with the Catholics we have a catechism. Right. So you know, there's sort of like, there's clearly out of bounds things and teachings that if you started holding them, you would now be heterodox. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I like that order. I like that order. I like that you're not going to find a Catholic that's just like, I don't know if, you know, the Trinity. And I'm like, no, like, but you will find those people

within Christian circles that are like, you're an Aryan, bro. Like that was subtle. Like that was subtle, what are we doing? You'll find those folks that are allowed to creep into Protestant circles and then be called a fellow brother in the faith. And that, I don't like that.

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Mason Hickman Would it be right to say that you would probably be more sympathetic to certain doctrines that maybe some of your other Protestant brothers and sisters wouldn't be? For example, you might be, I'm just guessing, open to maybe the veneration of icons if it's understood correctly and things like this, whereas I'm sure other people like Gavin Ortland or James White certainly wouldn't be or no? I think the utility of icons is beautiful. I think there's a practical utility of it. I think, and I am not a Gavin Ortland, like he's way more versed in this than I am. I think the utility of it is beautiful. I think the using pictures and all that sort of stuff.

I think the part where I get uncomfortable is seeing people bow to icons and seeing people kiss icons makes me uncomfortable. Because that line between where do we make the object, the source of our worship versus the object is a mirror into heaven, right? That's what they call them, windows into heaven. Not mirror, windows into heaven.

And so I think that line, I feel like can get blurry. And so that makes me uncomfortable. And then even trying to get more deep into what did that word anathema meant in the second I see in counsel? And does it mean that if I don't do said practice that I'm accursed and I'm anathema, or does that mean that those who go against it and wanna destroy that practice,

because I don't have a problem if folks want to use icons and it brings them closer to Jesus, like I don't have an issue with that. I think I would have an issue with like, is there too much on the inanimate object, too much emphasis on the inanimate object? I think I know what you mean, because you can feel uncomfortable about something

without necessarily being against it. Like you can be uncomfortable about something without even really having a good reason. So I'll give an example from my own life. Like as an Australian who just became legally an American. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you very much. I love this country.

I'm happy to be here. Americans are awesome. But I feel very uncomfortable when people put their hand over their heart and stand and say words to the flag. Like that makes me feel very uncomfortable. And so I don't do it. Now, someone could stand here and

give me a great explanation as to why you shouldn't feel uncomfortable. And I'd still feel uncomfortable. So, you know what I mean? So I so not that you're asking me for it, but the way I see it, like when I kiss an icon, it's sort of

like if I pulled out my phone and kissed a photo of my wife on the phone because I've been away from her for weeks, no one would say, and you wouldn't say, you're reverencing glass, you're getting things confused. You're worshiping the iPhone. Yeah, no one would say that. They would all recognize that I'm kissing

the image of my wife, and that's supposed to transfer to what I would do if she were here. Like if she were here and I was kissing my phone instead of her, that would be weird. Yeah? But. Yeah, that would be weird. Yeah.

But does that, so does that explanation help you go, oh yeah, I'm not uncomfortable anymore? Or are you like me with the flag, we're like still uncomfortable, but thanks. I would say the latter. And I would say, it's kind of what we talked about yesterday, right, what we do in moderation, people can do in excess, right?

And so I think you perhaps can do that in a way where there isn't any hint of idolatry in your heart. But I think sometimes that at scale, like the concern I have is that seeing folks in the Armenian traditions is that the rituals in the Armenian traditions is that the rituals become the means and that's it, right? Like this is- Do you mean the end?

The end, excuse me. The rituals become the end. So I'm gonna do this prayer, say this thing, light this candle and that's it. And then I'm gonna go back into society, I'm gonna continue being an alcoholic, I'm gonna continue drunk driving. And so I remember like the same folks

who would be in church would then, I would get a call, my mom would get a call from their wife, so and so just died in a drunk driving accident. And this isn't like one-offs. And so I think the concern I have is like, and so I try not to judge an entire faith tradition by the most nominal representatives. Great advice.

So I go, okay, well, are these folks just not, you know, really walking out their faith? Or are these folks the means of the faith? And I would say within the last year, if I'll be honest, I've met a lot more Catholic and Orthodox folks that seem to really take their faith seriously and seem to be not just bold and outspoken, but leaning into the practice of the faith. And I go, okay, that's interesting. Cause this is new to me. Like throughout, like the kids in high school

that were Catholic, it was just more of a cultural thing. Right? It wasn't a, I'm devoted to Jesus and I want to help be the hands and feet of Jesus on this side of eternity. And so I think the practice I'm seeing kind of emerge more. But yeah, I would say, I would be curious, and there's no way to quantify this, but I would be curious how many folks would be okay with just having a very, I go to church on Sunday and I am, I'm a Christian, I'm a Catholic, I'm a Protestant, I'm an ortho. Like what is the makeup of that demographically, right?

I would say in my church and many Protestant churches that I'm affiliated with, I'll be very specific and careful with my words, it's very difficult to just come and be a casual passerby. You're gonna get challenged. You're gonna be encouraged to to step in to do something active with your faith, with your service, with something, right? And so, and I just I don't know enough about that world and so I don't want to like dismiss the the whole by the the people you know that I've perhaps seen and create a caricature in a straw man. Yeah that's very charitable of you and I think sensible too. We shouldn't judge we shouldn't judge a medicine based on those who aren't taking it. You know we should judge the medicine based on those who are taking it. So if

I'm going to judge Protestants or Muslims or Mormons, then I need to like look at the faithful ones and then sort of judge the, judge the Catholic church by the saints, not by a priest who was a pedophile or this person who, you know, committed adultery. I love that you said don't judge the medicine by those who aren't taking it. That's it. That's it. It's very charitable. And I know we've fallen into that in the past. I had someone on the show, she was just sharing her experience. So I'm not knocking her for this, but she was pointing out that she used to be Protestant, but you go to these Protestant churches and

then she gave like the worst kind of Protestant churches. And then you go to Catholic churches and they're so beautiful. And I get the argument and I'm not again, that was her experience, but that's like being viewed millions of times, I think. But then I'm like, yeah, but I mean, there are so many ugly Catholic churches. So it's like, what we want to do is like, see the worst in you Protestants and the best in us Catholics. And you see these memes and they make me so unhappy because you'll see these gross Protestant churches with like a glorious Catholic church somewhere in Germany. You're like, that is not at all what's going on. Have you been to the local church up the road?

Like that also looks like a Pizza Hut. You can't be doing that. It's not fair. I think a lot of it is just the zeal of a new convert who really wants to believe that there's nothing wrong with their church. Yeah. And I'll be honest, like I don't have a lot of desire for being an apologist for Protestantism. We have our own issues in our own struggles. Now, I will say there's a reason why I'm not Catholic and Orthodox, but I am not trying to be the guy that has an apologetic for all the things. This is what I believe, this is why I believe, this is why I practice the way I practice. But I don't, I just think some of that can be,

I prefer speaking to the authorities on these things, the priests and the, like I find the conversations fascinating and not necessarily to win an argument, you know? And I get in trouble for that, for my own circles. Like they're like, I am befunded by how many fundamentalists, non-denomination, I don't know what to call them, Protestant,

that just think like Catholics aren't saved, you know? Or Orthodox, I'm like, this is craziness, you know? Like this is insane. And so I think there could be disagreement that's healthy while saying, yeah, those are our brothers and sisters in the Lord. And I get in trouble for that within my own communities. What is one doctrine that if you accepted it,

you think you would become Catholic? Well, the papacy, right? I would say the papacy. I think the papacy is one of those where it's interesting. But then would you? And that sounds cynical, and I'm not saying you have bad motives. Let me flesh this out a bit.

More and more I'm of the opinion that people continue within their worldview until it doesn't work anymore. Like, if I have a functioning worldview, and what I mean by that is all the parts work together coherently such that it seems like a coherent epistemic system, then I'm not going to abandon it because you speak into that epistemic system. Once it stops working, you know, so like if I have the worldview where I can sleep around and won't hurt anybody and this is how I live my life and you only live once.

Okay, so that's now my epistemic system and I start living like that and then I start realizing how desperately lonely I am and how I'm turning into a bastard. So now my system isn't working anymore, so now I'm open to advice. It might be a little cynical to say this, but increasingly I'm kind of with the opinion that like arguments that just come out of nowhere really don't work. They don't penetrate. It's almost like giving an answer to a question that hasn't yet been asked is sometimes not harmful. That's too much, but yeah, inefficient. If someone can argue you into a faith, someone else can probably argue out of a faith, right? And I think that's a reality that people think,

like you think you can argue someone into being a Christian or a Catholic or a, like I don't think that's helpful personally. Now- Unless someone's open to the arguments, right? Unless someone's open to the argument. You talked about reading mere Christianity recently, and those arguments are very persuasive.

Yeah. And he lays them out with a- Yes, I think there has to be a desire to be open to it. And so I've gone down just looking as much as I can. Like, obviously there's so much about the vastness of church history and the church fathers and the apostolic fathers and all the creeds. There's so much information there

and I'm trying to sort through it. And so I'm reading the arguments, but you're right in the sense that, man, my faith has been rock solid for decades. It's gonna be very- It's working. Yeah, it's gonna be very unlike- It's flourishing.

My kids are flourishing. Right, right, to be persuaded. But I think where I'm at is like, I want to understand the best arguments and just at least understand so I could steel man the position. So when people say, hey, you really, Catholics are going to hell.

It's like, wait a minute, no, no, no, no, no. Like, let's not do that. Go see what my conversation with Trent, they don't pray to dead people. This is what they believe when they say, right? And so, and then in that, like I could pose a question, like, well, can I pray to, can I ask Charles Spurgeon to pray for me?

And Trent goes, well, sure, yeah. You know, I'm like, okay, cool. Like, I'll take it, you know, I think I asked Father John, like, well, can CS Lewis pray for me? You know, he's like, yeah, you can ask CS Lewis to pray for you. I'm like, okay, cool. So I think, so the two doctrines I see is apostolic succession and the papacy. And so those two are really interesting. Here's a question. What is a Catholic doctrine you'd be willing to accept that wouldn't have to make you a Catholic? In other words, you could be a fully functioning Protestant,

but what's a doctrine? Like, I'd be willing to be convinced of this and remain Protestant. Yeah, the sacrament, the communion sacrament. Like, I think, I believe the presence of God is there, you know? Like, I believe that God is, that Jesus is with us in communion. So, I don't even know how much of our view on communion or, right, the Eucharist would be that different. So, I think, like, that's an easy one for me. Like, I would be like, oh yeah, no, like, I believe there's presence in that. Now,

I just had Father Simon on, and so I tried to get a clarifying question. I'm like, are you saying that the actual molecules of the bread and the wine change after you consume it? You know, and then like if someone were to cut you open and take it out, would that be then flesh and blood? And he's like, no, I don't believe that. And I'm like, okay. Now again, I might be misspeaking,

but he presented that as like, that's the official position. Is that fair? Right. So that you would have, the accidents of the bread would remain, but the substance would change. So a miracle takes place at a Catholic mass or an Orthodox liturgy that we would say wouldn't take place in a Protestant church because you don't have the priesthood as we understand it. But I do appreciate you saying that because there is a wide variety of views that Protestants hold about things like communion and things like this. And I think it's, I think

sometimes Catholics constrain Protestants. So they say, well they just think it's just a symbol. They think it's nothing. I think it's just a remembering. And it's easy to fall into that because I think we like simple narratives because it makes our world simpler. Yeah, I think it's nothing, or they think it's just a remembering or they, and it's easy to fall into that because I think we like simple narratives because it makes our world simpler. Yeah, I think it's way more than just a symbol and I think it's way more than just a remembrance. I think it's a very powerful moment for me. The, yeah, so I think that's the easy one.

You could accept that, yeah. But see, that's something you currently accept. I'm asking, what's something you don't yet accept that you could accept and still remain a Protestant? Like I would think prayers to the saints. That's something you could, I think purgatory, that's something CS Lewis believed in. I think that's something you could accept

and still remain a Protestant. I don't have a problem with purgatory. I think there's some verses, you know, to be absent from the bodies, to be present with the Lord. I don't know how to reconcile that one. I'm trying to think. Is this official teaching? Like Mary being taken up to heaven.

It's official teaching? I assumed in heaven. I don't have a problem. But that wouldn't be like, oh my gosh, how could you not believe that? I think it was Lewis who said that Catholics look at Protestantism and see a barren desert. Like where is everything? And Protestants look at Catholics and see an over barren desert, like where is everything?

And Protestants look at Catholics and see an overrun jungle, and like why is there so much here? That's a good illustration. Don't some Orthodox or some Catholics believe Anglicans have a legitimate communion? I think they did until they changed their ordination right, and so therefore no longer do. Oh. Yeah. Now there may be strands that do have and so therefore no longer do. Yeah, now there may be strands that do have apostolic succession and therefore do. I don't know the details on that, so I wouldn't want to speak to it. Yeah, it's interesting because I just discovered that recently where there seems to be some concession that apostolic succession did go beyond just

the Catholic and the Orthodox. Yeah, I think my understanding is, and people can correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that, you know, once there was that split, and, you know, Roman Catholic was really a slur created by Anglicans to sort of say that they were the real Catholics and these people over here were the Roman Catholics. But my understanding was that their celebrating of the sacraments

would have been efficacious, but that there was some change to the institution or the ordination of priests such that they no longer have the true presence of Christ in their churches. How long ago was this? I don't know. Okay. Yeah, you can look it up. I might even be wrong on the main point, but that's my understanding. Yeah, I remember hearing that. I was like, oh, that's cool. But as Catholics, schismatics would still be able to celebrate Holy Mass, you know? Like people who deny the

papacy and like, let's say somebody today gets so fed up with the Pope of Rome that they decide, well, the last seven popes haven't actually been popes, and now they're in a state of schism, but they're a priest. Well, they can still celebrate the sacraments and in fact if it were a bishop who came to that opinion the bishop could then ordain other men legitimately because he's a bishop and not legitimately but it wouldn't it would be valid but not licit what it's to say like it's law like it's it wouldn't be lawful but it might be valid okay and therefore then you've got these other priests who might be out of communion with Rome, who are still celebrating the sacraments, which are

efficacious. It gets messy. So, bishops can ordain priests? What if there was a bishop that split from Rome, became a Protestant, and ordained a bunch of priests that all became pastors? became a Protestant and ordained a bunch of priests that all became pastors. Would that, would that be? That ordained a bunch of priests that had their own churches, church, church like mine. Yeah, I see your point. So let's say I'm a bishop and I split from Rome. You're, you're unsure of the Pope. I'm unsure. And then I, what do I do? I'm the bishop here in this situation.

I ordain you, let's say. Yeah. You ordain me. You ordain my pastor. Do we then have a valid communion? I would... Yeah, it would have to be a valid ordination. What is that? What is it valid? Well, it would have to do with matter and form.

So it would have to do with the correct words, and it would have to do with the correct intent as well. Okay. So, for example, in baptism, if I baptize a baby against their parents' will, I just start going around baptizing babies. That would be illicit but valid. Those children would be baptized if I baptized them with the correct matter and form. If I, let's say, you weren't baptized and I held you down and made Josiah come in here and we baptized you and you didn't want that, that would not only be illicit,

but it would also be invalid because your intention would be against baptism. And now it's required. Like as a child, you can't consent, you can't deny, so it's valid. It wouldn't be for you if you didn't intend what the church, if I didn't intend what the church intends, if you didn't intend what the church intends. So that's where I'm not sure how that would work. They might, like if I'm intending to ordain a pastor for the sake of being a Protestant pastor in a mega church or something like that, it would seem like I'm not intending what the church intends. And so I'm not sure. What if that wasn't the intent? What if the intent was, hey. To make you a priest? We're gonna make you a priest and then all those priests

and then that bishop all end up becoming Protestant. Say that again. So the intent isn't to go ordain and make a church pastor to be a priest. The intent is, hey, we have this issue with Rome, hypothetically, I'm a bishop, I got a bunch of priests that are with me. They all end up going and they're all ordained.

And then they all end up starting independent churches, Protestant churches, because they're convinced of fill in a blank, sol de scriptura. They're all, they're all ordained. And so they're all baptized, not baptized, ordained. And they're all, they were all priests, but now, do you know they're not wearing- I would think theoretically, yes. It would be a valid- I don't think this has ever happened before. But they would have to say it's ordained. And they're all, they were all priests, but now, you know, they're not wearing. I would think theoretically, yes, it would be a valid.

I don't know if this has ever happened before. But they would have to celebrate the mass according to the rubrics, right? They couldn't celebrate Holy Mass according to whatever your rubrics are in your church. Yeah. There would be certain things that would be essential for Holy Mass and then other things

that would be non-essential, like wearing robes. My understanding is that's not essential. Okay. Yeah. What's that, Josiah? Just say it quick because people can't hear. Yes, they can. Yeah, I put the mic in, remember? The Anglican orders are invalid because of form, the change of the form. Yeah. And there's also a defect of intention, according to Leo, but I cannot understand for the life of me what he says the defect is, but there is one. So I basically got that right. What year, do you know what year that changed?

Well, so the, the change happens with the Edward Ordonal right of ordination, the first one right after they left Rome. But the papal bulls saying that they are invalid came out in 1896 under Leo XIII. Okay. That's some church history for us to research. Yeah, fun, fun things. I've always, I've always, yeah, I've always thought about that. Like, would that would that could then validate the communion? You know, yeah, this this this defect and intention seems to also answer

your question, which is on that about ordaining people with the express purpose of not following. Yeah, the rubrics of celebrating Holy Mass. Like if I if I ordain you as a bishop so that you can then do whatever you're doing at your Protestant church, it seems to be a defect in intention. Even if the words are what I should say.

I was more saying not with that intention, just like a general, like a, like a cluster of these guys all end up for whatever reason becoming, right? They were, they were priests. They were priests, they were, and then all of a sudden for whatever reason, because've seen this yeah i get your point let's see the opposite of protest let's say i'm a priest right now i'm a priest and then i abandoned rome and now i start a little protestant church and i start convecting the sacraments yeah i think you could

do that it would have to be according to the right this happened in the armenian you have to do this according to the right form and and and things that, but you would certainly be illicit and you'd almost certainly be excommunicated. And so you would be celebrating it illicitly. Be a big scandal. Yeah. We have our share of scandals. I think this is maybe what's partly what's making Catholics, I might be wrong in this. Certainly there are some Catholics don't seem terribly humble and there's a lot of triumphalism

among us. But I do think given the amount of scandals that are in our church, it's really hard for us to look at you guys and make fun of you. We're like, yeah, we have enough here. I got a question for you, and this will be my last Catholic question. Did you see the debate with James White and. Reason that fellow who's got that wonderful deep voice, I guess a great voice voice. He's awesome voice of reason. Thank you.

I watched about, yeah, I did watch a good majority of it and I thought he did excellent. Yeah, that was a great debate. That's probably, no, that was, that was a, he is amazing. I was shocked how well he did because James Wyatt is a seasoned debater. I've seen Trent go up against him and do well. I've seen Jimmy go up against him recently and I thought destroyed White. I haven't seen Jimmy in White. Yeah, you gotta watch. There's a recent debate on solo scriptura.

I don't know how, I was shocked at how poorly White did. So when voice of reason went up against him, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I thought, well, here's this new guy. I hope he knows what he's getting into. No, he definitely exceeded my expectations. I thought he did a great job. So would you agree with his conclusion

that if the Catholic church were to ever become affirming of homosexual relations or homosexual marriage, then that would instantly invalidate the Catholic Church. And forgive me if you didn't hear, because I may have, voice of reason, if you're watching this, forgive me if I fumbled how he said that, but he said something of that. Yeah, well, I won't respond to voice of reason

because whether he said that specifically or not, but what you said, yeah, said something of that. Yeah. Well, I won't respond to voice of reason because whether he said that specifically about what you said. Yeah. I would think that if the Catholic Church came out and officially declared, can I, can I use a different example? Like, uh, let's say denied the Trinity. Would that be okay if I changed it? Or do you want me to stick with homosexuality? That was what they had discussed in that debate. Yeah. I would think that if the Catholic Church came out tomorrow and declared

that they were wrong and it is God's will that men can marry, yeah, I would think that you've either got a pope that needs to be deposed because he's a heretic, and if he's a heretic, maybe that's now an argument against why the Catholic Church is not the true church and we were wrong, and therefore we got to find option A and B or C. That's what I would think. That was James' big argument at the end. I would just mark this date, just wait, you know, and I'm like, I don't know if that's a great argument, but it's an interesting thought experiment. Yeah. Interestingly enough, this is why when I said we have to have matter and form, this is why Catholics wouldn't consider Mormons Christians, but we would consider you a

Christian even though you weren't baptized in the Catholic Church. Because even though you're using the correct formula as Mormons do, I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit, what is meant by the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit are so different in Mormonism that it's an invalid baptism, even though the words are accurate. Interesting. Do you guys acknowledge, you acknowledge Oriental Orthodox baptism? Okay. 100%. Okay, I was baptized as Oriental Orthodox. Yes. Yeah, and Protestant baptism.

You do acknowledge Protestant baptism. 100%. Okay. I mean, again, the person who's doing the baptism has to generally intend what the church intends, which is to do what Christ commanded. Yeah, so even if there's, even if from our point of view, there is a deficiency in the understanding of baptism in Protestant traditions, there's enough there for it to be valid. Now if the Protestant pastor changed the words, like I baptize you in the name of the triune God or I baptize you in the name of Jesus or I baptize you in the name of the triune God, or I baptize

you in the name of Jesus, or I baptize you in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sustainer, then that would be an invalid baptism. And so sometimes you have what's called conditional baptisms, so if you weren't sure that you were baptized correctly, there's a conditional baptism. But no, we would actually think of the baptizing of Protestants as something of a sacrilege. So if you would have come, not that you were baptized as a Protestant, but if a Protestant would have become Catholic,

we wouldn't rebaptize them because, and if we had- So when Shane Smith got baptized, he had never been baptized before? Interesting. Right, yeah. If he had of and it was valid, he wouldn't have been baptized, he would have just been confirmed. And you have to be baptized to have communion. Do you have to be baptized in a Catholic church

to have communion? You have to have Catholic faith in communion and be free of mortal sin to receive communion. So, and here I'm not a theologian, so I want to ask forgiveness of everybody who knows more than me, which is many people. But if you were dying right now and a Catholic priest were here, he could give you communion if you gave some sign that you accept the Catholic teaching on communion, even though you hadn't been through RCIA or whatever it's called now, or whether you hadn't been confirmed. Got it. What would you say for you is the one Protestant doctrine that you wouldn't have a problem with? This is what's difficult, right? Because what we said earlier is Protestantism, Catholicism is a desert. So it's more like it's less more difficult for me because it's almost

like many of the things you believe. I'm like, yeah, I believe all that. I also believe a lot more. Do you see what I'm saying? So I don't know what would you. So to believe to accept something that you accept. I don't know that I don't know what would that be? It would always be a deficient, not a deficiency, but it would be like a lessening, like it would be like, OK, now I accept the 66 books that you accept, not the 73. See what I mean? Like it's still going down in what I believe, not up in what I believe. Unless you can think of something.

Well, I think I sat with, I think I heard from the Orthodox, we believe, and again, this is Orthodox, so I don't wanna conflate this, but I think I've heard, we believe what you believe about the Bible, we just also believe in church tradition. So like we hold to Sola Scriptura, but we also, it's like Sola Scriptura, and not Sola Scriptura, that's not right.

The authority, the infallibility, the inerrancy, and we hold to tradition. Mason- Right, so there's different ways of thinking of the sufficiency of Scripture. So in Catholic theology, you can think of it as some people hold to what's called material sufficiency and sometimes people hold to formal sufficiency. Now I'm going to get over my head real quickly here, so I'll sum it up by saying I think there are some Catholics who would say, no, every single doctrine that a Catholic must believe is found either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. That is what we're saying.

I think there are other Catholics who would say, no, we're not saying that. We think that scripture is say, materially sufficient, but I don't need to find even implicitly in the scriptures. Yeah. And I think I'm probably more in that vein. Yeah. Just because of things like the table of contents and all those word arguments that you've heard a thousand times that clearly don't seem to implicitly buried within scripture.

Yeah, yeah. Well, what's it? Because I've said a few things that I love about Protestants that I think Catholics can learn from. Here's another thing I'll just throw out. Like I love that last night you told me that you're doing a Bible study on the book of Acts with your son and that you're doing devotions with your children. I just think they're so beautiful. And there is so much that Catholics can learn. Do you look at Catholics and I'm going to put you in the hot seat and say, yeah, I think we could learn from you guys. I like how you do X, Y, and Z. And we could see some more of that. Protestants learn from Catholics?

Yeah. I love you guys' pro-life work. I think there's, I mean, I'm friends with Lila Rose, and I love live action. I think we could have more engagement in that sort of practical work in a very real sense. I think the philanthropy, a lot of great philanthropy done worldwide is from my understanding a lot of that is from the Catholics. So I think those two things I think about it. And that's it, Protestants don't do philanthropy

and don't feed people and clothe people. But those are two things that I think about. It's funny, because whenever you point out something positive about another group, you always feel the need to qualify that I'm not saying that our group doesn't do it. I felt that need when I said to you, you guys do Bible studies.

I'm like, well, obviously we have Bible. Look at Father Mike Schmitz, look at the Bible. But yeah, that's really cool. I think what you said earlier that Catholics, you said maybe more and more you're encountering Catholics and Orthodox who seem to be taking their faith seriously. When you grew up, maybe you didn't see that as much. I think there might be two reasons,

there's probably multiple reasons for that. I think here's two reasons. I think one is it's always easier to find bad Christians in a big group of Christians. So Catholic Church is the biggest Christian kind of church. And so it's gonna be easier than if you had a small church up the road at First Baptist. I think the second reason is it's becoming a lot less

socially acceptable to be a practicing Catholic today. Right? Interesting. Like maybe in the 80s it kind of was, whereas now if you say, no, I'm a practicing Catholic today, right? Like maybe in the 80s it kind of was, whereas now if you say, no, I'm a practicing Catholic, like that's a threat, I think, to the modern establishment or those on the left and maybe on the right. And so you don't willingly play that card. It's not a popular team to be on.

Yeah, like, oh yeah, like sex abuse scandals or like you're against a woman's right to choose and you hate gay people. That's what it kind of means, even though we don't hold those things, but that's what it means in the minds of many people who hear you. So I think for that reason,

it's kind of like weeding out those who never were really committed to begin with. Right, right. No, I think that's fair. Yeah, it's not, it's like being a, it's almost like being a fan and wearing a jersey of someone that isn't celebrated in culture. Yeah.

I think, yeah, so it probably requires a bit more boldness, but I feel like that's kind of all Christian streams right now, or all Christian streams that are coloring within the lines of what we would consider Orthodox doctrine or main things, essential things. So yeah, I think that's, you almost have to be okay with being contrarian now to be like, I'm Catholic, I'm Orthodox.

That's the new rebellion. Yeah, yeah. Cause a lot of Protestant churches, especially like in the neo evangelical space will invade aspects of culture without having to take any public hard stance, right? My pastor just talked about this. We talked about how you can not take any stance

on LGBTQ, the unborn and just be like, well, we have those conversations privately. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, we don't. Like we gotta share where we are publicly and counsel people privately away from those behaviors. Yeah that's that's good so what good are you seeing taking place? Do you use the term Protestant is that what you like or evangelical you don't care? I don't like any of those labels. Yeah yeah fair enough well what good are you seeing

though in this community you know know, like I could easily, in my world, tell you what I'm seeing in the church that I find great hope in. But I suppose in whatever your community is, kind of non-Catholic Christian Protestant community, what good is taking place right now? I think there's, on a practical level, a lot of restoration happening, specifically for people who didn't know Jesus, that are encountering Jesus for the first time, and just the complete transformation of their lives from the inside out. So like a heart change that leads to a behavior change that leads to a world change. I'm seeing that everywhere, some family members that just start going to church

and within eight weeks, everything about their life is different. And now they're wanting to have Bible studies all the time and they're wanting to do things and everything is completely transformed. And I'll tell you who that is off the record. So I'm seeing that like up close and personal, people completely become different people

within very short windows of time and then continue walking in that for a lifetime. I've seen people go from, you know, hardened criminals, murderers, to God give them a second chance because a law changed, they come out and they completely transform everything, build businesses, lead lives, become fathers,

and completely change their like surrounded communities. I got a close friend of mine who had a life sentence and for whatever reason, the law changed in California and he came out and completely is like one of the most positive contributors to his local communities and entrepreneur now. And this was a guy that was in a gang

and was a part of a murder drive-by situation that for whatever reason that thing changed. And so I'm seeing a lot of folks that were like lifers that completely have transformed their lives and not just their lives, but like their communities. We're seeing in some of the charismatic streams that I flow in, like we're seeing miracles. We're seeing people healed.

We're seeing, you know, my worship pastor had a form of cancer that definitely came with the life. It was leukemia actually, and just prayer and fasting and for whatever reason it mutated. And all of a sudden, all he had to do was take a pill a day for the rest of his life. But that pill came with him not being able to have kids anymore. And then he had three kids after, despite being told he'll never be able to have kids again. So we're seeing like miracles in a real way

that are just beyond me. I think ultimately the greatest miracle is salvation, like a change, transform life. But it's also really powerful to see prayers get answered and people healed of stuff that you're like, how did this happen? So we're seeing that. And I would just say on a global scale,

it seems like there's something in the air with, and I don't want the Protestants to take the credit for this, but the explosion of like Christianity and parts of the world that is not allowed, so we're seeing, we're hearing reports of millions of Muslims in Iran getting dreams and visions of Jesus. Okay, I love that. I've heard that. What do you mean we and how do you know this is authentic? So the reporting I'm hearing from a couple different sources, Dr. Michael Brown, who's a pretty big voice in the Charismatic community, has sent, oh gosh, his school of

ministry has probably sent hundreds. Is that the fellow with the sweet mustache? Yes. Good. Yeah. Probably hundreds, if not thousands of ministries, of missionaries have gone out to those parts of Pakistan, and they've even had folks get martyred for the faith that came out of their school of ministry. And so a lot of what they're getting is from Iran and then slow it down for us If you know a little bit more about it, so you've got these Muslims We're having dreams of Christ dreams of Christ and dreams of Jesus appearing. Do you have any specific kind of? Standing is there's Baptisms that are like everywhere and these folks are not

On social media with it because it can potentially cost them, you know, a lot. And I want to say CBN has ran multiple news stories on this in Iran. And then yeah, and then they're, they're, they're denouncing Islam and thousands- What Islam? Denouncing Islam. Denouncing Islam. Denouncing, yeah. There's thousands of mosques closing all over Iran.

Praise be to God. Yeah, so those are the types. And again, I don't wanna be like the Protestants, like it's not the Protestants, the Lord is doing it, but they seem to get connected with Protestant churches. And so those are the things that I'm seeing that I'm just kinda like, man. Gosh, doesn't that take balls?

I had to go into a place like that and evangelize. I was in the Middle East and this group from Saudi Arabia invited me to come and speak at one of their things. I'm like, what do you mean one of your things? Like, well, we have this barn. Unfortunately, a bunch of people got arrested recently because we left our shoes all outside

and the police got suspicious, but would you come and speak? And I'm like, part of me wants to say definitely. Part of me wants to check with my wife. I'm thinking no. Yeah, for my understanding, what they're doing in Iran is that they are broadcasting preaching through the radio, leveraging technology, and then they're able to catch this on like analog radios

and hearing the gospel. Can I not just thank Protestants for that? I think I want to thank Americans for that. Americans are so sweet and cool. I think it's sweet. By sweet, I mean like cool, sweet. You know, like they'll find a way to do it. Like we've got this, we'll hack this.

Yeah, you know, there's been a lot of leveraging of technology very early. Like if I went back and did a study on the very early uses of the radio was actually by a charismatic preacher woman. And I can't remember her name right now, but I have a thing, I do a thing for YouTubers. And so the early uses of the radio was like Christian radio. Some of the earliest uses for the microphone

and the speakers was for these crusades that Billy Graham was using. Yeah, so a lot of the leveraging of technology kind of being first to like whatever the means, we wanna use the most fastest means to get the word out. It's usually being driven by... I'd say pornography is probably at the front, but maybe the Protestants behind them. Yeah, yeah, well... The development of the internet was totally championed and pushed by the desire and propagation of pornography.

Yeah, but the TV, like a lot of that early TV stuff was like Christian TV as well. Yeah, well the printing press. I mean, you've got the King James version. No, it wasn't the King James version. What was the first Bible that came off the printing press, Josiah? I think it was a Catholic translation of the Bible. It was probably a German translation. Yeah, yeah.

I think it was a German translation, yeah. So I see that and I go, you know, even we were talking, I don't know if we talked about this. Yeah, we talked about this yesterday. C.S. Lewis's, Mere Christianity started as a radio broadcast, you know, which is like, how awesome is that? So I think seeing that and then now I'm, I love seeing other folks that are like really leaning into leveraging technology and YouTube and all that kind of like, I woke

up this morning and I saw my first thing on my YouTube was a video from one of, from your channel of a priest and he was, had a whole Bible study on it. It was today's video. So like, I love seeing- What was that, I wonder? I don't know. You want me to tell you what it was? Yeah, I was like, oh, this is so cool to see

everyone now really leaning in to leveraging technology. Yeah. I'll tell you right now, sorry. Yeah, no, take your time. This was... It was a video on my channel or was it? I thought it was a video on your channel, Matt Fratt. No, maybe it wasn't.

I saw it. It was Trent Horn's channel. Maybe it was Trent Horn's channel. I clicked into it and I was like, no, it was Pine Sweat Aquinas. It was definitely Pine Sweat Aquinas. It was a video that went out this morning. Give us a look.

Wait. It would have cut, it just popped up on his feed this morning. Oh my gosh. I feel, I gotta find it. Take your time. Yeah. There's a great quote from Dr. Peter Crave

who says, when an enemy is at the door, feuding brothers reconcile. And I think, I know that that gets dangerous, dangerous. I know that we can reconcile, but we haven't actually reconciled because there's still much that divides us. And I'm certainly not talking about a sort of soft ecumenism and championing that. Can rich people go to heaven? I love this video. Yeah. Yeah. This is a, it came out a day ago. My bad. Not, not this morning. Yeah. Father Gregory pine. Did you watch it? I watched the whole thing. It was great. Yeah. It Pines. Did you watch it? Did I watch the whole thing?

Was it good? It was great. Go Father Gregory Pines. Yeah, it was great. It was, you know, I went back and, wasn't it Clement that wrote the Saved Rich Man? What was the book called?

I'm not sure. Yeah, there was a book from early church history about Jesus's, that parable where Jesus talks about, it's harder for an eye to enter the, the camel, into the eye of a needle. And I want to say, second, one of the Clements wrote a book engaging with that because they started to,

Clement of Alexandria, that's right, they started coming to faith, like rich people started getting saved. And so they had to like deal with this whole, like how do you reconcile that with this teaching of Jesus? And that's what that video remind me of. I was like, this is so cool. Yeah, because I think that's a. But what did you what did you like about it?

What did you find hopeful? Was it that it was a you were learning from a priest and we were? Yeah, I think I OK. So. When I hear the gospel or when I hear Christian teaching in Russian, which is my first language, that's amazing. There's something to I don't know if it's a novelty thing, but there's something to like good teaching from language and terminology that I'm not used to hearing. That could be generationally or that can be a stream of Christianity or that can be an actually be a different language for me. So when I'm hearing good teaching

in Russian, just as simple as the gospel being declared in Russian, some of the terms, my Russian is not the best, but some of the terminology might be different. I'm learning new words, vocabulary, and it's watching Chronicles and Arne as an adult and seeing how clear the allegory of Aslan and Jesus and all that stuff is. It just kind of hits you differently. It hits me differently at least. So when I'm watching a Catholic explain how we don't succumb to the love of money and how we, and the trappings of money and the way we continue focusing on other people

and serving other people, it's like, it's a lot of the stuff I already know, but it's packaged slightly different and the vocabulary and the vernacular might be slightly different. So it kind of hits me a little bit. I get exactly what you're saying. Yeah, when people use different language to express the same thing, you hear it afresh sometimes.

Yeah, it's like Aquinas on the natural law and then hearing C.S. Lewis talk about it, mere Christianity, they're saying almost the same exact thing, but it's just slightly different. It's like when children express something about the beauty of nature, but they don't have the language to say something sophisticated. So they say something that to their mind is quite inadequate, but it strikes you as quite beautiful because it's so similar when you encounter new converts and hear you and I are with our fancy theological language and they come along

and they express it in such a simple childlike way and it cuts you right to the heart and you know that yeah, this is real. They didn't know the language first, they had the experience and now they're trying to communicate. Yes, yes. And so I think there's beauty in seeing the different streams of Christianity sharing their same teaching, same essential idea, but framed or phrased slightly different. Men, do you feel stuck in old idols or burdened by the pharaohs of our time? Do you know that you're capable of so much more

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Exodus90.com slash Matt to join tens of thousands of men from all around the world for Exodus 90 starting Monday, January 20th and leading up to Easter Sunday. All right. So we have questions from our supporters. By the way, hi everybody watching. Would you please consider becoming an annual supporter on locals matfrad dot locals calm When you do we'll send you a free pints of the coinest beer Stein You just have to pay for shipping you'll get these episodes one week early before they hit YouTube You'll also get access to my exclusive live streams that I do every morning. It really helps us out We have a lot of expenses and you guys make this show happen and hopefully get better and better

Matfrad dot locals calm click the link in the description below. We really appreciate your support So these are the wonderful people who have questions for you. I haven't read these questions yet. Oh, I do not vouch for them Okay, we'll start reading and see what happens J. R. Cleary says what keeps Ruslan away from belief in the necessity of the sacraments We okay if we've talked about some of these things, we don't have to talk about them again. So here's the second thing he says. Also, thanks for keeping Christian hip hop moving in the right direction. So feel free to comment or we can move on.

Well, thank you for that. Um, believing in all, you guys have seven. I like, I like them. I like, I like them. Marriage is one. I know marriage is one. I'm fine, I'm on your side. Communion is one. Sometimes you'll meet someone at a party and you get into a debate with them and you try to agree with them, but they won't let you.

You know what I mean? He won't let me agree with him. I keep trying to agree with him, no. Yeah, yeah, I think I don't have a problem with them, but I think I am... Get that out of here. I am not, I'm not convinced of neither the papacy nor apostolic succession in a way you guys understand it.

And so that would be the thing for me. Patrick says, not a question, but I, a Catholic, really enjoy Ruslan's content. He also wants to know how he can get curls like yours. He also wants to know how he can get curls like yours. I use a little bit of curl activation and great genetics. Thanks, Patrick. Thanks, mom. Isaac says, why do you think it is that so many Protestants can't see eye to eye with

their Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters? How might we do better? And how do we stay in the world, but not be of the world? Maybe that's a better question since we've already. Yeah, how do you stay in the world, but not be of the world? Well, I think Jesus gives us a great example of that, right? So Jesus is turning water into wine at a wedding.

Jesus is having dinner with sinners. And yet Jesus is in a synagogue and has friends that are Pharisees, and there's a duality there that I think is beautiful. So one, I think we do our best to study the life of Jesus and follow his example. Two, I think we commit ourselves to devotion to our faith and making sure that our faith is a practice. And I think three, James says, true religion is to care for the wood on the orphan and not be polluted by the world. So there's a doing and then there's a withholding. There's a serving and there's a let me not be corrupted by the world. And I think we got to have that

balance. So how do we not get corrupted by the world? I think in my opinion is by caring for the least of these. The framework I like, I love to use and I love to hear thoughts on this is so many people in my circle get really into like the end time stuff and the prophecy and the last days and all that kind of stuff. But if you actually look at Jesus's teaching on that in Matthew 24, it's a beautiful segue into Matthew 25 where you go from the crazy stuff happening and all the wars and the rumors of wars and in Matthew 25 opens with two parables and the final judgment. The first parable is the wise and the foolish virgins and one of them being prepared for his return, one not being prepared. Then it goes from the idea of living with the imminency of Christ,

he can come back any moment, into the parable of the talents, which is probably my favorite parable, right? He gave some five, gave some three, gave some one. The one with the one buries it, the one with the five doubles up. Well done, good and faithful servant. But then from there, it goes right into,

that's not longer a parable, it's the final judgment. I'll come back and I'll say when I was naked, you clothed me, when I was hungry, you fed me, when I was in prison, you visited me. So I think we probably, to both good and bad, like the adding of the verses and the chapters, but those are all supposed to be read in context. Matthew 24 flows into Matthew 25.

And so Matthew 25 is this beautiful picture of like, live as if Jesus is coming back by making the most of your time, talent and treasure for the sake of the least of these. And if we care for the least of these by being faithful and stewarding the time, talent and treasure we've been given, I think that's a recipe for removing oneself from being polluted by the world, right?

And so that is how simply I can... So there's both a doing and a keeping back, but too many people just want to do without replacing. You've got to replace the bad vices. You've got to replace those things with the doing of the good vices, and if you're not filling that space, you're just going to be stuck and continue being polluted by the world. Thank you. Yeah, increasingly I feel like reading the gonna be stuck and continue being polluted by the world. Thank you. Yeah, increasingly I feel like reading the gospels and the epistles is like a spiritual wheel alignment. So what I mean is,

if you don't really meditate on the scriptures, you can accidentally, through your own philosophizing, start ending up in sort of heretical views, right? So you might think that God hates you, right? Like you might think that, what's that? What's that squeaking? Okay. You might think that Jesus isn't kind, you know,

they hate you, that he's looking for a reason to condemn you. Or you might think hell doesn't exist. Like if a God is all loving, then he wouldn't want anyone to go to hell. If he, since he's all powerful, he would see that they don't. Or you might start to get so interested in how your liturgy looks or particular

doctrines, or maybe you're so hung up on, I don't know, like why homosexual marriage is not a true marriage. Great. That's true. But then what happens is you read the scripture and sometimes it's like cold water in the face. Yes. Like, oh, wow, it's like cold water in the face. Like, oh wow, he's telling me to love the poor everywhere.

And I haven't been doing that intentionally at all. And then you try to set yourself, well, I guess in some sense I'm trying to instruct the spiritually poor because I'm helping them understand gay marriage isn't marriage. And sure, there's truth to that as well. But I'm pretty sure when he said, clothe the naked, he didn't just mean that allegorically. Like there's probably a sense in which you should do that. And it's quite confronting. Like I feel unsettled.

When I read the judgment account, he doesn't say, and it's not because doctrine's not important, everyone's gonna misunderstand this and get upset in the comments. This is the one third of the comments, right? But obviously it's crucially important, but apparently at the last judgment, he's not going to say, so you believe that Christ had two wills, human and divine. He's going to say, did you like care for the least of these? Wow. That doesn't mean heresy

isn't deadly, all of that. But that's confronting to me. I get nervous when I read the gospels. Yeah, as we should. And I think the world is sort of like standing in an elevator with a bunch of people and they all have the flu. It's just, you're going to catch it. So part of it's not just, well, just retreat from the world in this aspect and given this aspect, I think part of it

is just like this humility of continual repentance. I mean, how many times has a fellow Catholic said to me, you've got to check out this show. And I'm like, all right, I start watching the show and within 10 minutes, there's this outrageously graphic sex scene. And I think to myself, I'm pretty sure Christians aren't supposed to be watching other people having sex. Like, I'm pretty sure like we shouldn't be on. So why would they think not only that this is acceptable for them to watch, but to recommend that a brother watch as well? That's the world, right? We don't even see our own face. We don't even see our own, yeah. BF Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And just to add to that, I love that. I think my

only addition to that is in the parallel of the parable of the talents in Luke 19, we see Jesus use the language of occupy till I come. Tell me about that, yeah. So he's talking about the 10 bags of gold and it's the same idea of stewardship in the Luke version and he's saying this and then he's in a modern translation it says do business with this until I come back right but

in the KJV says occupy until I come which I love that language like we are called to occupy and subdue and to be faithful I love that here and now and I think sometimes it's either too much retreating or it's too worldliness, too much worldliness, right? Like someone recommending you to watch a show with an explicit scene is crazy to me and so there's like we can go there or but we could also go to the other extreme of like I'm going to be too removed from the world. I'm going to be so heavenly minded that I'm of no earthly good and I think that's also an unhealthy extreme. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can see why people like simple narratives

because a lot of this takes nuance and moderation, right? Like moderation is more difficult than going cold turkey or going hardcore. Just in my experience, like I'm much better if you say you need to do carnivore for the next month. I can do that. If you tell me like, well, for the next month, I won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, same with exercise. I think the need. For moderation and self-control is a virtue we don't talk about enough. Like, where is that balance? And because some people do need abstinence for a season. So I just did a three day bone broth fast. It was great. I needed it right. Sometimes you do need to goence for a season. So I just did a three day bone broth fast. It was great. I needed it, right? Sometimes you do need to go hardcore for a window of time,

but hardcore is not sustainable. And so it's like trying to retreat so far from the world and culture that you're just completely detached and you have no practical utility to being in this world. I think it's very unhelpful. And so I think, yeah, I think you might need that for a season.

In my day, I'm sure in your day too, when people would get saved, they take all their secular CDs, they break them and throw them out. And so I think, yeah, I think you might need that for a season. In my day, I'm sure in your day too, when people get saved, they take all their secular CDs, they break them and throw them out. And that was like a thing. Totally. And it's like, yeah, I guess we need that. But you, you know, you probably still listen to Metallica and whatever. Yeah. It's so you need both. You need that. Like I'm going to go hardcore for a window of time, but that's not the longterm plan. You know? Yeah. And it's probably the case

that some new Christians who've just burnt all their CDs or whatever, look at Christians further along the journey and may judge them for them listening to things that they consider unholy, because I think there really is a... it's like when the Lord calls you, when He captures your heart, there needs to be this real severing of things that have led you astray. Yes. But once you're no longer enslaved to them, then yeah. That's good.

How have you managed, like how have you, or have you managed to keep your phone and screens in check? As someone who's on YouTube a lot, do you know, I saw a great meme the other day where there's a guy telling the phone what to do as if he's its master. But then the other panel is, no, it's the phone

is telling you what to do and it's your master. How have you navigated that? Well, I don't have any social media on my phone besides YouTube and that's not really a social media. So one, I don't have Instagram, like even like you posted the thing and I'm like, oh, I gotta grab the iPad. So one, I don't have Instagram, like even like you posted the thing and I'm like, oh, I gotta grab the iPad. So one, just creating that barrier of,

I need to grab a bigger device and you're not just gonna aimlessly scroll on Instagram on an iPad. So I have an iPad that, I don't have TikTok on that. So I have someone that does my TikTok for me. So one, I just try to not endlessly scroll. Two, no notifications for any social media at all. So I don't get notifications for comments. I don't get notifications for anything at all.

And then also I bought this thing that I use occasionally. It's hard to describe it. So it's imagine like this clear glass box and I put my phone in it and then I could put a timer in when I could get my phone back. So usually in the evenings when I'm trying to unwind and I'm just being present with family I got this here and I throw my phone in it and I'll lock it up and I'll through the course of dinner I won't have access to it. So it'll be like four or five hours I won't have access to it which is nice.

I have one in the studio too where sometimes me and the guys will use it and we're like, we gotta lock in. That's been good. Leaving my phone out in the kitchen for the evening time so that I'm not taking my phone with me. And like my wife has a phone if there was an emergency, she can use her phone. But it can easily, easily drift into that compulsion using.

And so yeah, and then I generally don't read comments unless it's the highlighted comments on the YouTube Studio app. So whatever, if you were to leave me a comment because your account is verified and you have subscribers, YouTube will work that up. And so I'll see if a creator reaches out or something like that.

But generally I don't go digging into my comments. I don't really react to my Instagram comments because that stuff can suck me in and I tend to have like kind of like an addictive personality. So I try, I'm not perfect at it, but those are some of the practical ways of just consistently trying to have

as many barriers to get into stuff. So even like I can get on Instagram, but I got to go to the Safari browser. It's a totally different experience. It sucks. So good, I need it to suck. I need it to not be easily accessible for me. That's that's good.

Yeah. Yeah, because I'm concerned that, you know, like as Christians, we should look different. Right. And often the only way it seems that we look different is what we're doing or not doing with our genitals. You know, like that's that's how we're different. Like I'm faithful to my wife or I don't look at pornography or something like that. Or I try not to, you know. My concern is when it comes to the phone,

that the only way we're different to the atheist is that we try not to look at porn. It's like, oh gosh, surely it should make us feel more uncomfortable than that. So it's nice to hear how different people are sort of struggling. That's really cool about the glass container. Yeah, I'll send you the link for it.

It's pretty fun. I guess if you needed it or you had no self control, you could always throw it on the ground, but that's pretty extreme. Cut your eye off. You're unlikely to do that. I was like, you can pluck your eye out and cut your arm off if you want to descend.

I've seen folks like go to the dumb phone. Like that's a big movement. I've tried it several times and I had great success for a time. But then what would happen is like, I'd have to go to Ukraine or something. Then I was like, now I'm not gonna go with the dumb phone. What I do is like, you should send me this glass link, this glass container link, because I would like to get it.

Because one thing I do on the weekends, often, not always, is I'll give my, I'll get my backpack and I'll put my phone, I'll put everything that accesses the internet, my phone, my laptop, even my Apple watch, I'll zip it up and I'll give it to my daughter I want you to hide this from me and I want you to pretend I'm gonna look for it And if I can't find it you'll get a million dollars. That's great. I gotta try that my nine-year-old be pumped Yeah, it's kind of fun And of course my wife who may have more self-control than me or may not but doesn't realize it says well

Just put it in your drawer and don't use it. I'm like, are you kidding? My wife is the same way. What the hell is wrong. She has incredible self control. And I'm just like, I can't I can't just not have the dessert. I can't just I got to hide it. It can't be in the house. That's right. I mean, when I started doing this, I would take my backpack to a friend's house. I like take it from me.

If I come back before Monday morning, I need you to mock me mercilessly. You got it. I've always wanted to do that. As I would back out of the driveway, I'd go for my phone instinctively to tweet, almost like the phone has become a part of our body and it's a bodily function. Sometimes I'll say to my wife, oh, what did John say about such and such? And she'll pick up her phone to open up an email.

And I hate that so much because it just distracts or interrupts conversation. So now I'm like, what did John say about such and such? If you only if you know, please don't look at your phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that. And then make it the more you can gamify something, the funner it becomes. Gameify. Yeah. If you take it like that, that's a game. It becomes a game. Okay. Hey, hide this and know how to find it.

And I just find that every single time I love it. It's like there's a part of me that relaxes. When I'm in internet space, it feels like I'm always like replying and seeing and commenting even without realizing it. When I get rid of it and I know it's not an option, there's this deep relaxation that takes place in my body and the days are longer.

Like they used to be when we were kids. I know that sounds romantic, but it feels like that. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that. Yeah. So your YouTube channel you guys crush thumbnails. Thank you. And have you ever been accused of clickbait like you guys are just trying to drum up stuff? Because I think there's a distinction between clickable and clickbait. To me clickbait is a deception. Clickable means you make it super enticing but you give what you deliver. How do you see the distinction? Yeah so... Oh sorry, you give what you deliver, you give what you promise. That's what I meant.

YouTube does not reward clickbait, meaning that if I package a video, Jordan Peterson gets baptized and it's a Photoshop version of him with a circle, and we make it look like, we take the pictures of Shane Smith, and we swap it out, we make it look like Jordan Peterson's getting baptized. And I put that up, and then everyone clicks into it, and then that's not what the video is about,

that didn't happen. YouTube will deprioritize that video. Even if you get the initial click of a couple seconds, within the algorithm, they'll know that people aren't watching this because it's deceptive. So they'll watch like 20 seconds and then stop. And then stop.

And then they'll click out. And so YouTube will deprioritize that video. So the accusation of clickbait, I think, is silly because one, no one wins. The creator doesn't win, YouTube doesn't win, the audience doesn't win. No one wins when actual deception is happening. Clickbait. And that's the definition of clickbait

that I have understood to mean is like, hey, it is deceptive, you're saying the video's about this, but it's not about this. If we package a video that's clickable, that's interesting, that we call it click bless, we get you into a video, sometimes maybe appealing to some of that, you're hungry for drama, right? We have a video called,

the situation with the chosen just got crazier. And so someone might be coming there looking for drama. Ooh, what'd they do now? And then it's like, hey, they launched five new shows. They got this. That's crazy. Great job. Oh my gosh, Jonathan is doing the cartoon.

This is great. Okay, you came looking for drama, but we blessed you with something good for your soul. That to me is not clickbait, that's click bless. We hit you with a little bit of a bait and switch. It's like the, I don't know if you guys ever did this, but we used to get the pizzas to get people into youth group. And then when they got there, you get the pizza,

but you hear about Jesus, right? It's a great analogy. So I think that's different. So I think the accusations of clickbait is just not, to me, not understand, or using a different definition of it. It's think the accusations of clickbait is just not to me not understand or using a different definition of it. It's like people saying the patriarchy is bad. Patriarchy is bad.

What do you mean by the patriarchy? Cause I think we're saying two different things. When people of the faith say patriarchy, we mean the head of the household is the husband in the way that Christ is the head of the church. That's what I mean by patriarchy. You know, we can call it a complimentarianism, we might call it in certain Protestant circles.

When you're saying patriarchy, you're creating a system of injustice where women don't have a, we're using two different definitions or another one is gossip. This is gossip. Wait a minute, no, gossip is not saying something that's true about someone.

Gossip is usually connected to unconfirmed reports and slander. So if I'm talking about something that's publicly available information because someone decided to post something on their own social media and I'm covering it, I'm reacting to it, I'm adding commentary, that's not gossip.

You may not like the topic, but that's not the same as slandering, disparaging, and saying something negative about someone. So I think people just have weird definitions. And what it really comes down to is, I don't like this video. Well, that's not the same as an accusation of deceit or slander, right? So it just comes down to definition.

If I stumbled across a Buzzfeed article and they get me to click into it and I read it, that's not, and I read it, that's not deceptive on their part. It's a good title, it's a good packaging, it's an interesting article. I heard you say recently that it actually takes humility to use a platform well.

Yeah. To say about talking about it. Yeah, because if I'm using a platform well, that means I actually care about what people care about. If it's about me and my agenda and me feeding my ego and growing my audience to be my little god and my little kingdom, then that's a very selfish use of the platform.

That's a very like superstar approach. Like you're important because you're important. Like the rock, if the rock were to have a YouTube channel, it would grow because people were interested in the rock. But I think growing today on YouTube or any platform, really you actually have to put the people first and say, well, what do the people want? And how could I give them what they want or what they need,

but maybe they don't know they need yet. And how could I solve a problem for them and lean into the things they care about? And hopefully they stick around long enough to get to know me a bit. That's a totally different approach than like traditional platform building of movie stars and superstars.

It's like they become the thing when really we're saying, no, no, no, the audience is the thing. Donald Miller has a really good thing about this called story brand where he talks about how you are not the hero of the journey, the audience is the hero. You are just a sage to guide them along the path

that they're trying to get to, right? And so every story has a hero, a villain, and a sage, right? And so if you're trying to get an audience, you wanna make them the hero of the story, and then you're just a guide to point them in the right direction, right? And so obviously in our journey, Jesus is the ultimate hero, but we get to participate in that.

And I'm not the end of the content, they are. Ultimately, the videos are about them and what they're trying to figure out and sort through life. And then we're pointing to Jesus as the way. I love it. I love that you thought through this so well. Have you published a video, and I won't ask you which one, have you ever published a video that you thought,

yeah, we shouldn't have done that, or I wouldn't do that today? Oh yeah, tons of videos back in the day. I mean, again, a lot of our celebrity pastor videos like that I've taken down, I was like, oh man, like not that I said anything slanderous or lies, but just that were not true. You know, excuse me, not true, not edifying.

They weren't edifying. And so, yeah, so there's been a handful of those we've taken down. I'm trying to think of something more recent. Not a whole video, but like we will get some, an update on something and I'll go out and clip something out. Can I affirm you here?

We don't have to talk about the specifics, but I saw a video that you published recently where you said that somebody held to an erroneous view. And I know this fella and I wrote to you and he doesn't hold that view, here's proof of it. And you went, fella, and I wrote to you and he doesn't hold that view, he has proof of it. And you went, cool, I'm taking it out. I just thought, that's a really stand up thing to do.

So good for you for doing that. And I think this fella too, he was really edified by that as well. He doesn't know who you are, but he now knows you're a stand up guy if you were willing to do that. Yeah, yeah, I think there's times where I, if I have information that's inaccurate, there's nothing wrong with going back and taking it out

and saying, hey, this wasn't accurate. Sometimes I'll make a correction video as well. Like, hey, we got, this was said, this source was faulty, something new has developed. So yeah, I'm trying to think of something recently that I like, I wish we hadn't made that video. I can't think of anything within the last year or so, more about like packaging

and trying to find an angle to a video that may not be there, you know? So if like, the hardest thing for me, and this is why I admire what you do so well, is like when we're trying to package for mass market in a younger audience, it's very tricky to take a podcast conversation like this and try to create interesting topics

that people care about without forcing something. And so we've had moments where we've like, okay, this- We're trying too hard. There's not enough tension within this conversation. How do we create tension in the conversation that's just honestly a wholesome conversation? That I think is the next unlock. If I could figure out how to just take great wholesome conversations and just title Matt Fratt and Ruth Slahn talk about Jesus. Like package that and make that interesting.

I think that's going to be the next unlock, but that's very difficult to do. Mason Hickman The love it. Okay. The Roman who supports us on local says, Ruslan, as a cultural observer and commentator, do you find it difficult with people in the hip hop culture who claim to walk with Christ but pull followers away by living that weed and excess life. Keep fighting the good fight. We can be relevant and swaggered, but still let people know it's okay to be with the Lord and not seem out of touch." Well, the Roman, that's a great question. I will say this. For whatever reason, in my relationships with, I can only speak to people I know who are Christians.

People who are Christians and proclaim to be Christians that have this sway of walking people away from the faith, once they start dabbling in things they shouldn't be doing, weed, drinking, excess, they don't continue having much influence. I'm not sure why that is, meaning that if they don't course correct, usually the Lord will just like, like you're done, you're gonna get sat down. And so I don't, I've never seen a Christian artist who has influence over people, lead people astray

because of lawlessness in their personal life. I haven't experienced that. Now there are mainstream people that I think are pushing some dangerous ideologies, but on a very I know this dude loves Jesus and he's a Christian, folks who start drifting from the faith or start smoking weed, usually their careers will come unraveled and they won't have the same influence that they used to have. Their numbers do, no one, people stop being interested in them. The people that you see, and I can only speak for my friends,

but like the La Craze and folks in that world are like living wholesome lives. You know, they're living good lives. They're honoring Jesus. They're not abusing substances. They may have some views I differ with, but they're not out here like living lawless and leading other people to live lawless. That has not been my experience. Catholic Viking says, do you feel a need to only listen

to Christian music because of your own music? What are some of your favorite types of music or artists to listen to just for fun? Hint Catholic lo-fi is the correct answer, he says. If you actually, I know earlier you'd mentioned a few people like Forrest Frank. Forrest Frank, yeah. Could you just, off the top of your head, list several hip hop, ball rap artists that you would recommend?

Yeah, hip hop artists I would recommend, Indie Tribe, John Keith, no big deal, their collective, Tory Deshawn, DJ Mike LV, Mowgli, great collective. And then they're all amazing independent solo artists in their own right. There's a handful of folks like Jay Monte, who I think is a stellar artist, artist named Caleb Gordon. If you want more pop, like more easy stuff on the ear, that's not overtly Christian.

Jake, which is spelled J-V-K-E, has some amazing, beautiful love songs. And he's a really, really, him and his brother, Zach, are really good kids. Forrest Frank, my buddy Nick D, all Christians, all love Jesus. Graham, who produces a lot of Nick D's tracks, there's a lot of really good music out there.

Paul Russell had one of the biggest songs called Boothang. That was last year on TikTok, massive song. His album's great. It's clean. He is, again, it's not overtly Christian, but it's clean, it's positive, it's upbeat. There's nothing disparaging or derogatory in it. So there's a lot of good stuff out there right now.

Tell us about these journals you have. I'm actually curious. Yes. What are they? Jason- Yes. Well first of all, my apologies. I totally forgot to pack up. Mason- I forgive you. Jason- Yeah.

So we have these prayer journals and it's really, I've always benefited from just keeping a mole skin and just writing out my prayers and then being able to go back and look at the things I'm praying for and how much we pray for that we forget. Mason- It's so important to do that. Jason- That God answers. So I said, hey, I've been doing this for a while. how much we pray for that we forget. That God answers. So I said, hey, I've been doing this for a while. It's actually been one of the only ways

I've been consistent at praying is by writing out the prayers. And a couple of years ago, I was on someone else's podcast and I was kind of floating the idea. And the guy, his name is Bram, and Sean's like a branding expert. He's like, no, no, no, no, no.

I wasn't even really sure where he was at with his faith at the time. But he's like, no, no, no, you need to do that. That even really sure where he was at with his faith at the time, but he's like, no, no, no, you need to do that. That's great, you need to do that. And so we got the first prayer journal, which is just a very simple prompt that follows the Lord's prayer. You start out with praise, you give God praise,

then you pray for other people, a little box to write out prayers for other people, then you pray for yourself. Then there's a memory verse that you're trying to memorize. And then there's like a little, like today's not negotiable, and they're like, I will get this done today. And then the other page is just like a section to write notes.

So we came out with the first prayer journal that evolved into the second leadership planner which is like a calendar, a section for goal setting where we walk people through goals. All of that then culminates into daily morning non-negotiables and daily evening non-negotiables. So you're saying you wanna do these things this year or this quarter, break this down into daily non-negotiables and daily evening non-negotiables. So you're saying you wanna do these things this year or this quarter,

break this down into daily non-negotiables. And then there's a section for a same prayer journal format, an additional section for like a meeting where you can go through the meeting and then an additional section for just free write notes. And then we just finished my first devotional called Occupy Till I Come on that passage from Luke chapter 19, verse 13.

And it's a 60 day overview of the macro narratives of scripture, about a page worth of just, hey, Genesis 1, a little additional reading. And then on the second page, there's more journal prompts that you can fill out based on the questions from here. And then there's another little section just for your today's prayer request. And so it's like walking people through

the macro narrative of scripture in 60 days, all the big stories, but making it practical to whatever it is they're going through. And then it's interactive. So you get to fill out prompting questions. And so that is gonna be, I think, really helpful for people. And I'm super excited to make sure that like,

just I'm thinking of what would have been useful to me 20 years ago. Like a prayer journal would have been really useful to me because it would have given me a system to consistently pray. Or, ooh, I wish somebody would have walked me through the entire narrative of the scripture in 60 days. These are the types of products that we wanna develop

so that we can genuinely solve the problems that people have because a lot of people are struggling praying consistently, or struggling reading through the Bible, or even understanding the narrative of the scripture. So those are the things that I've been super blessed to work on, and it's been awesome. I love your point about praying and then remembering what you prayed for, and then praising God for if you are to receive this gift or something because there's an old joke about a Catholic priest who was circling a parking lot and was praying to God for a parking space and he's like, oh, never mind God, I found one. And often we're like that.

We pray to God and then when we get it, we just chalk that up to chance. And then when something bad befalls us, we chalk that up to God may not exist. It's crazy how faithless we are. I'm always shocked to go back and grab a journal from a couple years ago and look at the stuff I was praying for and how much of that stuff came to pass, or how much God changed my heart for that one desire that I had to do X, Y, and Z, and I don't even want that anymore. Is this used as a daily planner or no, this is more like a- So the lead, yeah, the leadership journal has a daily planner in it.

Wow. It's a macro calendar. And then yeah, there's, you can, again, break it down. So you can choose it as a regular, like hard planner. I just kind of, I ended up using it as trying to remember different people to pray for. And so like, I kind of write it out as like, I got these things going on in this month,

but I also try to jot down the name of like, remembering to pray for different people as well. Why do you have two, is it two channels or three or four or five? How many channels do you have? We have my main channel, Ruslan KD, that is primarily around faith and culture. We have Bless God Studios,

which is primarily podcast clips and more current events, cultural commentary, stuff that doesn't make it on the main channel, usually less produced, less edited, more like podcast clips and some some podcasts. And we have a third channel that we've been dabbling with, kind of like a leadership business channel, trying to equip the next generation with just good, useful leadership principles. That one is really hard to stay consistent of, just between the two channels we have.

And then I have like music stuff online on YouTube as well, but where we are trying to reconcile those, so I have control of those as well, because those are through my digital kid. You think it's a good idea to separate channels like that? I'm currently thinking about my own channel and wondering if certain content would do better on a separate channel The temptation is to think well because this channel is big if I put these videos on this channel that it'll do much better

That's sometimes not at all the case. Is it? Yeah, I think we Like separation and some people are coming primarily for faith Then they don't want to hear about anything business related So we want to talk about something business related or man, we just read this new business book, this new leadership book, this thing from John Maxwell, this right, that doesn't really fit on the main channel and or the, or the clips channel.

So we like having that differentiation. But I think if someone's like initially getting started or like, I feel like a lot of your stuff is fairly focused. You have a very clear focus that's, it's not always necessary. You know, you might, you might benefit very clear focus, that's it's not always necessary. You know, you might you might benefit from just a clip a separate clips channel. So you put the full pod cast on here and then put the clips on another channel that could that could be helpful. I think it just depends on what someone's objectives are.

Yeah. Well, Ruslan, what else you want to talk about? Thank you for coming on the show. This is great making all your way from, California What? Yeah That's all right. Anything else we talk about? Oh, no, this is great. I got I got can I see this thing? Is it your beads your rosary? Yeah, that's a shot key. This is cool. You must know the word shot key It's Russian for not shot shot shot key yes is that right I think so I I'm freshening up my Russian right now doing Duolingo that's gotta be cool yeah what an advantage you have to even know Russian a smidge must be terrific

yeah do you speak any other language no I barely speak English okay well hey listen I would love to have you in San Diego yeah well thank you I would like that you're like the world's most interesting Catholic. Every time I, yeah. There's a, you've lived everywhere. You're Australian. You've, did you say you lived in Ireland? Yeah. So maybe I could have you come out to San Diego.

Yeah, but this is a shot key. So you just pray Jesus Christ have mercy on me. Same thing. That's it? Just the same thing. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me. That's sinner, yeah. Constantly.

That's cool. This is what I was talking about. I feel like the mind and the heart, I have this analogy, it's not terribly good. Maybe it's good. Yeah, sometimes I'll be sitting on a porch and my dog will wander off. And as long as he's close to me, it's okay. But if he goes beyond where I can see him,

I go, hey, Pushkin, come. That's his name, Russian again. I like the Russians. Pushkin, and he'll come back, or he used to before he died. Point is, I feel like the heart is like that, and it's constantly being lured by sin, and lured into sleep.

And what we want is wakefulness before the Lord, a sort of attentiveness to the Lord at all times. And so throughout the day, I try to pray, Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. And that's my way of sort of like calling my heart back to Christ who's always present. Like we read, you're a temple of the Holy Spirit.

Like you could go into a cave and meditate on that for 50 years and still be impressed. What does that mean? He's somehow within me. He's somehow more present to me than I am present to myself. And so that's what I like the Jesus prayer about. That's somehow within me, he's somehow more present to me than I am present to myself. And so that's what I like the Jesus prayer about. I love that. That's beautiful.

Do you find, I've sometimes met Protestants who they'll say, look, I obviously don't agree with everything you teach, but there's certain things about your faith that I kind of find endearing and I kind of wish I could do, like the rosary beads or the kind of confessionals in a dark church. I had a friend who was a Protestant and he just always wished he was Catholic So he could creep into a dark church and go to confession in one of those dark booths and things Are there things like that? Like you ever would you ever consider picking up the rosary and learning how to pray it? I will say that just feeling this is it's pretty cool. Yeah, you know, I think I think this is a

This is gonna sound this I'm not saying this would be disparaging, but like having something to touch. 100%. Yeah, it's pretty cool. No, it's the sensual. Yeah. Yeah, we're sensual beings. Yeah. It's like having a nice Bible, right? Because someone could say, what's the difference?

Just get a $1 Bible from the dollar store. You're like, yeah, but there's something about holding it and the feel of it. I'm a big. And laying flat. Yes, yes. I love the access to confession, like in a consistent matter.

I think one of the things we talk a lot about is like confession of sin within my church and within community and within like accountability partners, but I love that you guys have like an order to it. Like I think you guys and that Orthodox really have a nice means and a system for it that I think is a good practice. I would love to see that in Protestant service.

Do you know what the Rosary is? Like vaguely? Vaguely I do, but I'm not super educated on it. It's just interesting how we have different expressions and ways of meditating, eh? Because I hear what you're doing with your kids and I'm like, my goodness, that's so beautiful. I need to incorporate that.

But one of the things we do every night is we'll pray the rosary. And so the rosary is basically you have 15 mysteries that meditate on the life of Christ and the Blessed Mother through Scripture. And so, yeah, oh yeah, that's a rosary. Look at that. So wait a minute, so this is not a rosary? No, that's a prayer rope. This is more structured, so you'll have 10 Hail Mary's a Glory B, 10 Hail Mary's a Glory B, etc. The idea is that you meditate on a mystery from the Gospels. So for example, the Joyful Mysteries, okay, you begin with the Annunciation, then you meditate upon the nativity of Christ, then you meditate upon Christ being presented in the temple, then you meditate upon the 12-year-old Christ being found in the temple. Are you touching each single one? Yes, you'll say a Hail Mary, full of grace, as you think about this biblical reflection. And then it's for each day of the

week, so on Monday you'll do the joyful mysteries, Tuesday sorrowful, and so that goes through Christ's agony, death, and the glorious have to do with his resurrection and things like this. So it's been talked about as like a Bible study on beads. And I really like that. And I think that sometimes Catholics don't give themselves credit, because they'll see Protestants talking about their Bible study and reading their Bibles. But to meditate, I mean, some people do all 15 mysteries a day, which would take them something like, I don't know, like 45, 50 minutes to pray through. And so just to meditate continually on the life of Christ, it's a really beautiful thing. I love that. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, you got it. You got to teach me more. This is

cool. And so is every rosary different or are they all the same? Yeah, every, there are, when you say different, what do you mean, like how they look? Well, obviously they're different how they look. I meant like, are they all following the system you just walked out from? Yes, there are a couple of variations. There are like the Franciscans,

which are a religious order within the church, or the Carmelites. They might, for example, the Carmelite rosary has an extra decade on each mystery. Oh, okay. Yeah, but that's the traditional, more standard- How far back does this go? Well, the way it began is the monks would chant 150 Psalms a day.

The lay people who didn't have that time, or maybe the ability to read, or the ability to own a Bible because it was too expensive, would substitute 150 Psalms for 150 Hail Marys. That's how it originated. And then it began from there, there are some alleged apparitions that took place where the Blessed Mother gave the Holy Rosary to St. Dominic as he was fighting different heretics. Also, so you guys believe this goes all the way back

thousands of years? No, sorry, when I say alleged apparitions, I'm talking about- Sorry, in the spiritual sense. Yeah, so maybe like hundreds of years. God, hundreds of years, that's still pretty cool though. 12th century or something like that. The 158 angelic salutations goes back to before the year 1000. Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, so it talks, like there was some development in its form. Yeah. But it's beautiful, I really do think Catholics disparage themselves too much because they can't quote scripture and verse the way Protestants often can. They assume that maybe they don't know the scriptures. But what's really cool is if you're meditating

every night with your family, thinking about that, like you kind of know it in a different way. It's good, very cool. Anyway, if you like the look of that or if you like some kind of rosary, let me know and I'll send you one. Okay. I'll do my Catholic duty.

I'll get you some prayer journals and leadership planners. That'd be great. Very cool. Thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Matt. This was great. Peace, guys. That was awesome.