Pints With Aquinas - Everything Flannery O'Connor w/ Fr. Damian Ference

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Fr. Damian Ference is a priest of the Diocese of Cleveland where he serves as Vicar for Evangelization, Secretary for Parish Life and Special Ministries, and as Professor of Philosophy at Borromeo Seminary. He holds a licentiate in philosophy from The Catholic University of America and a doctorate in philosophy from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome. He writes regularly on the intersection of faith and culture for a variety of outlets and is the author of the award-winning book, The Strangeness of Truth (Pauline Books & Media, 2019) and Understanding the Hillbilly Thomist (Word on Fire, 2023). Fr. Ference is the founder and director of {TOLLE LEGE} Summer Institute and is a life-time member of the Flannery O’Connor Society. Support the Show: https://mattfradd.locals.com Show Sponsors: Hallow: https://hallow.com/matt Strive21: https://strive21.com/mattfradd Exodus90: https://exodus90.com/matt  

Father Son, Holy Spirit, Father Damien Ference. I was I know why I started my interviews by saying people's names with that amount of seriousness. It always cool. Hey, what's going on? Um, here we are in Steubenville. Yeah. Back in Ohio. Well, I'm from Ohio anyway, so it's only a two hour drive down here. And it's good to be back with you. I haven't seen you in a while.

Yeah, I was saying, I mean, you are one of the first guests on Pints for the Quietus. It's right. Maybe 2017 or. It might. When did you start it? I don't remember. I think it was when did Trump run for office for the first time?

16. So 16. I remember sitting at my seminary desk and having to figure out earbuds. Yeah. And then you had me have a glass of beer and I had to tell you what I was drinking. And I think we were, we were because there was before the video business and we were talking about the, how to Thomas's Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas is remedies for sorrow. I think, I think that was what it was.

And it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it. And then I came on another time and then I was away studying for a while and hadn't seen you and here we are. So it's cool. And you're back. So yeah, yeah, I'm back as well. Now you just got a PhD in what? What's the philosophy?

So I was at the angelicum, the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome. It's very well known because John Paul II got his doctorate there and I was there from 2018 to 2021. My bishop sent me to get a PhD in philosophy. And I, I had a dream, like if this would work out, this would be the best thing for me to write on. And it was Flannery O'Connor because I've been a fan of hers now for 25 years. And as it turned out, when I got there, a Dominican priest, originally from Georgia, who had his conversion partially because of reading- Wait, is he going to be nameless?

Is that what we're doing? I'm getting to him. Okay. From Georgia, partially had his conversion because of reading Flannery O'Connor, Father Thomas Joseph White wound up landing in Rome at the same time. And after I did some coursework, because I transferred from CUA, that's where I did my license. I was able to ask if he could be my director and it turned out that he was. And so the last two years there, I worked under him and wrote a dissertation called understanding the hillbilly Thomist, the philosophical

foundations of Flannery O'Connor's narrative art. Wow. So a lot of folks have written on like literary criticism and theology and spirituality, but there has not been a deep dive or many into the philosophy underpinning her fiction, her narrative art. So that's what I did. And we're done fire published it as a book recently. So they do a great job too. They do. They're really, I just huge shout out. Um, brand Brandon, Brandon Vaught, Brendan Vaught sent me a whole two, three boxes of books and all of the books are so beautifully put together. They really care about beauty. They do. Anything that they put out is gonna, it's gonna be beautiful. And even the materials that they use are going to be high quality, high class, because that speaks to what you're going to find within there. So I'm pretty pleased with the book and I'm pleased to work with Word on Fire.

And I used to blog for them a lot. And then I had to back off because I was writing the book. But yeah, so great. Great. I feel like the layman's version of your dissertation or is it? Yeah, I pulled out one chapter. So there's an introductory chapter. If you don't know anything about Flannery, read that and learn a bit about

her life and her art and philosophy and theology. And then I do a whole section on her metaphysics, a whole section chapter, whole chapter on her epistemology and a whole chapter on her ethics, and then bring it all together at the end. And I analyze some of her stories at the end of each chapter too. So it's fun. Yeah. How was father Thomas Joseph White as your director? He's excellent. And I did nothing to deserve him as my guide.

I think this was all part of God's providence and he was good. He pushed me hard. When I wrote my second chapter, which didn't make it into the book, but there's another publisher who's looking at it right now to make a little, um, what do they call it? A little tome. It would be, I wouldn't have to dumb. I wouldn't not dumb it down, but I would leave all the footnotes in there. Yeah. Um, um, a monograph is what it's called. But anyway, I gave him my chapter on O'Connor and modernity and he read it and then he gave

it back and said, this, this isn't good enough. So here are, I think a six or seven books is probably 2300 pages of reading. He said, I'd like you to read all these and then incorporate what you learned there into all the footnotes. So you let your reader know that, you know, what's going on in modernity. I was weighing heavily on Descartes and he wanted me especially to hit Spinoza and do a little bit more with Kant and then a couple more philosophers. So he had me read a lot, but I liked it. He pushed me. That's what a director is supposed to do.

Say not good enough. You could do better, do better. And then it was better. But I'm sure at the beginning of obviously never done a PhD, but I'm sure, although I do have an honorary doctorate, so we're pretty much the same. Yes. But towards the end, you're like, if you tell me to change one more freaking thing, right? Well, I was used, I was, I was used to it. I knew what he was going to do and I knew it's kind of like parenting or coaching or mentoring in general. If you know someone loves you and wants your best like I like to be coached hard.

Tell me straight up what I need to do because otherwise I embarrass myself. Sure. Yeah. Because this is it once that's out. Right. So he was good in that way and and even little things. I remember I got a little feisty in one of my footnotes. That's such a great line. And he wrote, he said, keep your tone sober. That was his advice to me. I thought very good Dominican, keep your tone sober because it's an academic piece. It's a scholarly work and keep your tone sober. Make good arguments.

You can say the same thing, but say it in a different way. Don't don't get. That is such a beautiful nerdy thing to say. I think people should make Father Damien Ferent's t-shirts to say I got a little feisty in one of my footnotes. I did. I did. Yeah. Yeah. So it was cool. I don't know if you introduced me to Flannery O'Connor or not. Certainly. I don't remember to be talking about her when I first met. Yeah. I don't remember. You probably talk about her to everyone you first met. Well, so can I tell you a little bit about how I love that found Flannery O'Connor or better yet how Flannery O'Connor found me.

So she's a 20th century American short story writer born in 1925. Actually her birthday is March 25th, which is the feast of the Annunciation. So a lot of people have connected that to her incarnational art. She was raised in Savannah, Georgia. You can actually visit her home there, her childhood home. It's a wonderful place to visit. Yeah. And then the cathedral right next door is where she was

baptized, received her first sacraments. And then she went to college in Georgia, at Georgia Women's College at the time. She did it in three years. It was during the war, then up to Iowa to get her MFA. And then after that to New York City. And then she came home because she was diagnosed with lupus which was the same disease that took her dad when she was 15 years old. So the last 14 years of her

life she lived on a working dairy farm with her mother Regina in Milledgeville Georgia. You could actually visit that farm today too and while she was, she wrote 32 short stories, two novels. There's two collections. There's a collection of her essays, collection of her letters, and then her prayer journal. And then there's, she used to write for her diocesan newspaper every two weeks and review books like theology and philosophy books too, and some other books. But anyway, when I was in college seminary, our seminary in Cleveland partners with John Carroll University. In my senior year, I took a poetry workshop class with a poet named George Bill Gare. And we would have to write poems, two poems every

week and then we'd workshop them. And if he picked your poem, it was like your lucky day. And one day he picked my poem and one of my fellow students had to read it out loud and it was a little disturbing, it was kind of dark. And he said, Damien's poem reminds me of Flannery O'Connor. And so I said, oh, Flannery O'Connor. I've heard that name before, so I wrote down the name and I thought when I get home, I gotta figure out who this guy is.

Well, I get home and I figure out it's not a guy because her baptismal name is Mary Flannery O'Connor. When she went up to Iowa, she dropped the Mary because it was kind of an all guys world and she wanted to be taken seriously when she put her name on things. Right. So she wasn't discriminated against. Anyway, so I start reading her work that summer, her short fiction and her short stories are dark. If you've seen Coen Brothers films, they're like that. And she uses violence, not for the sake of violence, but to wake her reader up. She said, for a world that's almost deaf,

you need to shout. For a world that's almost blind, you need to draw large, startling figures. So she is a devout Catholic woman, daily mass goer, and also an excellent narrative artist. And a big part of her journey is trying to do those two things together, be a great artist and be a devout Catholic and faithful. And because you don't see a lot of that together, we don't have many saints who are artists at the same time. That's what she wanted so badly.

So when I went to major seminary, I continued reading her work and jumping into her letters. Um, while I was in seminary, my mom was diagnosed with cancer for the fourth time and she wound up being in a cancer home in Cleveland, Ohio, run by the Hawthorne Dominican sisters. So Nathaniel Hawthorne's daughter started this order to take care of poor people with cancer, and it turns out that the nun who was taking care of my mom, when she was a novice worked in Atlanta, Georgia and new Flannery, O'Connor. Wow. And the nun who was taking care of the priests mom next door to my mom,

who wanted to be my first pastor, also new Flannery. So there are all these connections that were coming in to my life. And so after I was ordained at my first parish assignment, I would run summer book clubs and we'd always read a little bit of Flannery. And then I wrote a paper on it when I was at Catholic U. And when I was teaching at the seminary, I would do independent studies

with some of my better students who wanted to do deep dives. We do Flannery and Faith and Reason, Flannery and theology or whatever we were doing. And so when I was sent to do doctoral studies, I thought if I could find somebody to guide me in Rome to write on an American short story writer, I would do it. And that's when I went to the Ange, Thomas Joseph White was there and it all hit.

So I do feel like it is part of my vocation within my vocation to do the work on O'Connor. Yeah. People who like her really like her. Yeah. Well, I think she, her most famous story is called a good man is hard to find. And it's about a guy who escapes prison and he's known as the misfit who winds up Taking out a whole family and it's very dark and it's very cold my kids love that story

Yeah, I really do them all the time. Well, I shouldn't say the time. I've read about three or four times Yeah, you know that bit where she says I won't dance with him. He looks like a pig like that I maybe I'm getting that wrong well Or was it the was it the mother in the gas station who said that I forget But it might it might be I know well, there's a yeah, I don't know my kids My wife's like should we really be reading this? I'm like, I don't know but we're going to well He the misfit doesn't fit in and I think in many ways Oh Connor was writing about herself that she she didn't fit in because when she was up at Iowa

she didn't fit in because when she was up at Iowa, she's a woman from the South who's a devout Catholic and she was surrounded by a lot of atheists up there, mostly men and northerners. And then once she got really sick, she was in New York City for a little bit, came back down to Georgia and was so smart, so intellectually rigorous and wanted other artists to talk to and she had her mom and other people who really didn't understand her work and said, can't you just write stories? A lot of people would enjoy right. Another gone with the wind.

So everywhere she went, she struggled to fit in, but the one place she fit in was inner Catholic faith. And she understood the cross and she was dying of lupus and she understood suffering. And she loved Aquinas and she loved Augustine too. And I think she felt like her life made sense against the backdrop of the Paschal mystery and she could be a good artist and she could, she could love her God and, and do her best, even though her artwork was scandalous and turned a lot of people off, including some Catholics. Like this doesn't make any sense it's too dark it's too violent. Yeah I think that's why people like people who feel like misfits really love other misfits who are able to maybe articulate their experience yes it's like why you know young.

Disenfranchised men get super pumped about some metal band or something and almost worship them yeah. Yeah there's he's not a metal band but there's an artist known as his name's Petey. I've seen him a couple of times live and it's mostly men who go see him and he resonates with them because he's speaking of human experience of trying to be macho. But there's a part of me that I kind of want to be tender and it's funny, but they're like crying out, don't tell the boys. Yeah, it's wild. Well, who's that band we used to talk about? The two fellas. Twenty one pilots. Are they still going? Yeah, they're actually coming on tour in the fall.

So that would be another example. They seem to be able to articulate what we feel but can't say. Correct. I mean, that's the job of an artist. You love them. Right. That's the job of an artist to to to name what your experience is and then To put it on display so that you can feel it more deeply and understand it more profoundly. I think yeah Yeah, I heard someone say that good fiction makes us feel less alone. Oh, yeah, something like that I'm sure that's not the primary purpose, but that is what you get when you read good fiction sometimes Yeah, it takes you it takes you into the heart of humanity.

It ought to anyway. Yeah. Yeah, I really like her. Sometimes you read people, at least I do, because I want to be the kind of person who likes this particular author, because they seem super sophisticated and I'd like to be like that. And then sometimes you read something and you go, oh, I don't even have to pretend. This is beautiful. Yeah. She, she knew that she was different. She knew that she was smart.

She knew that she was good and she was also trying things that hadn't been tried before. And I think in my own priesthood that resonates, um, being vicar for evangelization, there never was one before. So it kind of got to be a pioneer in this way and trust your artistic sense, that your artistic intuition, that what I'm being called to do here, even though people that's not going to work or this, this is a weird way of doing things. We haven't seen this before.

It could actually, and you to hold your own and S and move through with that. Despite what people may say is, it's a lot of fun and it's also challenging. Maybe you've had that with your podcast or trying something different or moving to Steubenville. You could go somewhere else, man. You could go to LA or you could go to Chicago, you could go to New York.

Why the heck are you going to Steubenville? But here you are and it's making a difference and you're trusting the call that comes and things are coming out of it. That's fun because you don't know how it's going to turn out, and that's exciting. I think. Well, I also think there's a lot of people in the church who feel like they don't fit in. And it feels like in the church there are these unnecessarily rigid categories that people feel they have to fit into to be a quote unquote good Catholic right and so having people like her break the mold. Really attracts people who really want to love Jesus Christ but they feel as if people are laying heavy burdens upon their shoulders that they don't need to be laying on this you know saying I do course.

When Flannery was in Iowa she wrote a kept a prayer journal and it was only published back in 2013 or 2014 and it's beautiful and it's honest and it's raw and, and to read her prayers, um, even if you're not a believer can be moving. This is what, um, in the new Wildcat film, when Hawke was auditioning for Juilliard, her drama school, she had read O'Connor's Prayer Journal and was so moved by it that her audition was actually a monologue of O'Connor's Prayer Journal. And then in the film, she acts that out too. But it's hard, even if you're not a believer, to not be moved by, there's something going

on here and you look at her life and you look at the fruits that are coming from it. It's hard not to be moved by a beautiful artist who's doing wonderful things, especially in her unhealthy state of one who has lupus. And I just learned the other night, the rash she had on her face was called the butterfly. It's like all red here that she had, yeah.

You mentioned the movie. This is releasing now. By the time this releases, maybe it'll be out for the public. I'm not sure, but yeah, select theater. So Ethan Hawke, who I know best from Dead Poets Society. I remember seeing that when I was young. He's an actor. He had was married to Uma Thurman for some time and then then they had their, they had two children and one is Maya Hawk.

And she's best known for playing Robin and stranger things. Yeah. Works at the ice cream store. Very likable. Oh yeah. Yeah. Lovely. So when she was in high school, she came across O'Connor's fiction and fell in

love with Flannery O'Connor and she's an artist. So she liked the beauty of her art and also the darkness of her art. It's hard, right? Like the Coen Brothers films again. So she talked to her dad and said, I think we should make a film about Flannery O'Connor. And it was a running joke.

A lot of the articles that are out now, they said this was the big joke. So that's what they decided to do. And there's another guy named Shelby Gaines. He and Ethan Hawk wrote the screenplay and Maya played Flannery, but she also plays other characters from O'Connor's story. So the way that the film looks is it's O'Connor's life in her early twenties as she's going from Iowa to New York back to Georgia, those two years, and then they fill it in with vignettes,

like truncated versions of six or seven of her short stories, and in each one of those, Maya plays a different character, and a couple other actors play different characters too. So I've seen it a few times now, and I reviewed it for Word on Fire, and I would say it's a lot like her fiction when it first came out. People who got it, got it and loved it and other people were like, I have no idea what I'm seeing here. This, I don't understand this. But that happened with her fiction too.

But a lot of times with good art, the art is going to push you to work to understand it more. And I remember when I first encountered her art, I knew it was good. The writing was good and I was wild, but I didn't know what I was reading. And it took years of studying her to really get the deep dive to find out what I was doing. I would equate it to if you don't know anything about religion and the first thing you come to is a Catholic mass and you're seeing processions and smells and bells and standing, sitting, kneeling, genuine. You're like, I don't know what this is. I don't know if I like it,

but there's something going on here. That's important. It's a lot like that. I think O'Connor's fiction is that I think wild cat is like that too. You know? Yeah. Wild cat. Awesome. That's interesting. I didn't know it was Myers idea. She's the one who kind of pushed the movie forward. Yeah. Now she wrote mainly she's would it be fair to say that she's well known mostly for her short stories that they were more successful than her novels or no? Yes. So short stories. I think she wrote 32 two novels wise blood.

It's she would say it's an unconventional novel and it certainly is. It's about a preacher who starts a church called the Church Without Christ, which is pretty funny. His car becomes this pulpit and he goes around, he actually sleeps with the prostitute first and then he starts this church without Christ, and then he goes around trying to satisfy this great longing of running away from God. And then maybe at the end he does something drastic, but you'll have to read the story to do that, to read the novel. And then another novel is, oh gosh, Not Everything That Rises Must Converge. No, it's Matthew 1112

From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffered violence and the violent bared away the violent bared away That's her second novel job. And so way to get to the title thing. I that's how my mind works They have these files like okay, and then two collections of short stories But it's all you can also get it as the complete works, too But I would say she's best known for her short stories. Yes. Yeah. Why is she a good short story writer? And what does that take to write a good novella?

She captures human drama. And I think because she is a devout Catholic and also has outstanding vision. So she says an artist needs to show what is. She is a devout Catholic and also has outstanding vision. So she says an artist needs to show what is. So you need to look and see what is and then describe it. And so getting in a character's head and showing the character's face and showing the action and showing why all this matters against the backdrop of the transcendent.

So oftentimes in her stories, characters are going along and then all of a sudden they look up and then there's the sky and then there's the sun or a line of trees, the horizon. That's the horizon that is the transcendent trying to break in. That's God and His grace trying to break into our hard heads and our hard lives.

And she says in each one of her stories, grace is offered. Sometimes it's received. Sometimes it's not. Other times at the end, you're hoping it's received, but you're really not sure. But she gets down to the nitty gritty. And I think when you read her work, you realize that these characters that she's writing about, they're me, right? And the person, Mr. Shiflett without an arm

or Hoagajoy without a leg, the deformed human nature is sinful human nature. And she's putting that on display and she's never telling you that, she's showing you that. And that's what good fiction does. You're like, oh my gosh, that wait. Oh man. I, I, that, that resonates with my heart and my head and my experience.

So I think that's what she's able to do. She's she, she shows, she doesn't tell, she shows reality. She shows the brokenness of the world and it's in the brokenness that the, the light comes through the grace breaks through. And sometimes in a very violent manner. Because sometimes that's the only way that we're going to we're going to get it. So a good man is hard to find, as you say, her most popular short story, probably. And that is, I think, what people should read if they've never read her before. That's what's nice about a short story. You may not be willing to commit to wise blood, which is a big book. But you could start with this. if you like it, yeah, there you go. Maybe takes an hour to read or something. Um, but in that book, where's the redemption? I mean, there's just a fellow who shoots the family and that's it.

Yeah. So I'm sure there's more to it. Well, at the end, spoiler alert, if you haven't read it and you, you know, fast forward or pause or something, but, um, the grandmother gets in this great dialogue with the misfit who struggles to believe in Jesus. And at one point he said, um, um, Jesus thrown everything off balance. So, and if he is who he says he is, then you better reform your life and follow him. And if not, then you better just go off and do like meanness is in the world, which is what he's doing. And so there's this point in the story where the grandmother who is very hardheaded and focused on herself and can't get outside of herself and

needs grace to break through. At one point she recognizes the humanity of the misfit and she reaches out. And she says, you're one of my babies. And it's such a tender moment. And then he fires a couple of rounds into her and puts her down in the ditch. But if you pay close attention to the details, when she falls in the ditch, her legs are crossed. So there's no details that are unintentional on O'Connor's part.

So you got the cross and then a lot of commentators will say she has a smile on her face. So she's got the beatific vision at that point because it took, it took that moment for her to reach out and then he puts the bullets in her and then she falls back, but she's experienced the grace in her life. Now she's been transformed. Now she's been redeemed. She's been saved. Now I don't know if this is too clever, but wouldn't you say she didn't seem like a terribly good mother? She was very nitpicky of her son. And is there something in that that maybe she was kind of narrow and

hard hearted. And then at the end, she she had this moment where she reached out and said, my boy, my baby. Yeah, I mean, that's part of it, too. But the whole the whole reason they wind up on this back road is because she thought they were in a different state and she's misreading the whole story about the misfit. It's all her fault to begin with that they flip over and she, yeah. She's all focused in on herself and she's hard headed and she's struggling with her own sin and her own pain.

And it takes the, and actually there's a line in this story. She would have been a good woman had she had someone pointing a gun at her every minute of her life. And so most of us need some of that, right? We kind of fall back into our hard hearted or our thick headed ways and we need something to get us out of that. Right. And a lot of times it could be sickness.

It could be death. It could be a breakup where we realize, oh my gosh, I am so dependent. I need some help. And so she's showing that constantly in her stories this way. But the end of that story, we don't know where the misfit goes.

And there've been a couple of songwriters, I think Sufjan Stevens, Mary Goucher. Well, Josh Ritter wrote a song called good man where they're trying to figure out where he went after that. Did he have, did he reform his life? Was he changed because he's not, he's not pleased at the end with this. And he, and even with Bobby Lee, he's talking at the end. He's like, no, there's, there's no, there's no pleasure or something like that.

No pleasure. So he's struggling with his own conscience now that, that that that violent act has also started to work on him. Yeah. See, that's interesting because I had always, I've misread the story. I thought the redemption was about the misfit primarily, and maybe it is to some degree, but I'd never thought of it being a redemption story for the old woman. I think it's both. Yeah. And I think, yeah, the, the, because the old woman, she, she has a transformation, um, because the old woman, she, she has a

transformation. Um, again, legs crossed, um, beatific vision and, and that tenderness that she tried to reach out with. And then at the misfit, that same grace is now working on him. And again, there's many ways to interpret this story. That's my way. I think it's right. Yeah. I think it's right. Um, why do we need art at all? Why not just proclaim dogmas, tell people to repent of their sin and accept these propositions? Well, it wasn't that enough. Isn't it a waste of time? Her writing these nice creative stories.

Surely she could have just taught the faith straightforwardly and that would have been a whole lot more helpful. Yeah, because we're human beings. And as Alistair McIntyre would say, by nature, we're storytelling animals. And the best way to get, to get the dogma or the doctrine across oftentimes is when it's in flesh. I mean, it's the same reason. Why did God become man?

Because we best understand what it means to be a human being. When we see God as a human being, true God and true man, it's an incarnational art. Not that he just become man. He became man and then told a bunch of stories. We call parables, right? Yes. And then his life became the greatest story of suffering and dying and descending into hell and then rising from the dead. And then people, when they encounter him, they

now have encountered God and they tell the story of their encounter of the one in the flesh and are willing then to lay down their flesh for the sake of this one because he's shown that this is worthy. So it's not it's not an abstraction. It's not cold. It's it's an embodiment. We're human beings. So we we need we need fiction in this way. We need art in this way. It's very human thing. Yeah. And I guess people who are well integrated, appreciate and express both. I'm thinking of people like Dr. Peter Crave or Father Thomas Joseph White, like really brilliant people who can speak really intellectually also see the importance of beauty and stories. But I suppose there are also people who seem like they're on each end of the spectrum. Like there are people who are like super artsy, melancholic, poetic. And then there are people who are very cerebral.

And I guess that's OK to have these two types of people. But I mean, who who? And what happens when they misunderstand each other, especially as it pertains to the faith? Do you see that a lot? Do you see cerebral dogmatic people thinking all this art stuff is a waste of time and being overly critical of it. Like this Sheila who played Flannery.

I'm sure I don't think she's a Christian. She played a lesbian in like this horror movie. Correct. Like, why should we be celebrating such a such an abomination? Yeah. So. I think Thomas Joseph White is unique. I there are some folks who can do it all, and he can. Like, I'm definitely on the more, I mean, I can, I have a PhD, I can think, I can write and all that,

but I can't argue and I can't remember and I can't recall. I don't have the level of IQ of Thomas Joseph White. Yeah, a few people do. I can create and I can preach and I can teach and I can engage culture. So we all have our own gifts in this way. But yeah, that, that father white is able to play banjo, um, lead the hillbilly tomists, the atheist under the table. He's most impressive in live lectures when it comes to the question and answer section, the way that he is able to synthesize an argument and then go back and say, well, you said this and so-and-so said this,

but if we recall this, and then bring it all out. It's like he was sitting there for a couple hours making a Thomistic argument, but he does it naturally. I'm so happy he's Catholic, and I'm happy that I was able to study under him and that he's at the Ange and he's wonderful. So he can do that. But there are some people who are quite cerebral, who don't appreciate art or fiction or would have no interest in Wildcat. That was a waste of my time. That's trash. I don't work. I don't like the Lord of the Rings or I don't like you name it. They're not interested in that. So there's all sorts of different ways in, but I think art, beauty, architecture in particular, like beautiful churches, um, smells and bells, all that stuff, especially with young folks where we live in a world that's constantly

changing and architecture can be very boring and screens are everywhere. To step into a space that's beautiful that's been around for a while that will be around for a while. That can win over the heart. I completely agree. And obviously there are so many awful churches today from the seventies especially, but also living in Europe right now and all these beautiful churches are empty and their countries are and post or anti Christian and there doesn't seem to be much return.

So clearly it's not just enough to have very beautiful things. Certainly. Yeah. And if you don't know the story and if you don't know the story behind it or you your culture has rejected Christianity for one reason or another. So those buildings represent oppression, patriarchy, old ideas. I wonder if there's an analogy, you know, just like the cerebral and the artistic. Let's just say that there might be like an analogy to like the traditionalists and the Charismatics, right? Because I think the traditionalists would look at the Charismatics and go, it's way too

messy. You know what I mean? Because it involves emotion and passion. And maybe you get some things right, but you're going to get too much, too many things wrong. It's unsafe. And I can see a similar criticism to the, to the poet. I mean, I don't know any cerebral person who says poetry is unnecessary. I'm being a little hyperbolic, but do you see what I'm saying there with like, like artists tend to be kind of like angsty and frustrated and.

Yeah, well, I was at the seminary for a long time, and we used to say that there are different types of seminarians. So there's the Meeks who are the really pious, the Greeks who are the athletes, the geeks who are the the nerdy cerebral ones. And then there's the freaks who are the artists. OK, so there's four rather than just two. And I think that fills it out a little bit. And we need all those folks. And then there's the freaks who are the artists. So there's four rather than just two. And I think that fills it out a little bit and we need all those folks, but you, you don't want the freaks running your liturgy, right?

And you don't want the meeks teaching your philosophy or theology course. You probably want them praying for you and in spiritual direction. So you have different folks with different gifts, different charisms, let them do their thing. Well, so you, spiritual direction. So you have different folks with different gifts, different charisms, let them do their thing well. So you, you would want Flannery writing short stories. She was also, this is interesting too. She was also a painter and they're starting slowly to bring out some of her paintings. People have seen her self portrait, but one of the reasons she said she painted was to improve her vision because she had wanted to see better.

So it was like cross training as an artist. So yeah, you let people do what they're good at and some people are just. Uber gifted and they can do all sorts of things, but most of us are pretty good at one or two things and, and you let you let people do that. So I think, yeah, the charismatic church, it can certainly be messy, but it also hits the heart perhaps in a way that that intellectual arguments don't, you know, or reading the life of a saint. And someone may like to read the summa and other person may like to read the confessions more so. So I am that I'm a big proponent of this because one line I've repeated over the years is Don't demand uniformity where the church allows diversity of opinion or custom. Yeah, that's right. Because when you do that, it's like you make this

What's the word? Cookie cutter Catholic and you demand that people fit into it or else they should feel guilty, right? And so well, maybe I don't want to pray the rosary I understand it means a lot to you and I'm not diminishing it and I'm sure it's a good prayer and I'll pray it occasionally But don't tell me I gotta pray for a day. I don't want to pray the rosary. I understand it means a lot to you and I'm not diminishing it. And I'm sure it's a good prayer and I'll pray it occasionally. But don't tell me I got to pray for a day. I don't want to. Right. Don't tell me I'm a bad Christian for that or something like that. You know?

Yeah. And we just, we just, it's almost like we, yeah, we excommunicate people in a way. This you're not, you're not worthy of being part of us or something. I guess that's true of all groups though. We have, we have tokens that indicate I'm part of your group. Right. And it feels unsafe if someone's not showing the correct token. Right. The little virtue signaling. Yeah, I do this too, or that too.

Yeah. Even when I was studying in Rome, you know, you live in a house with 72 brother priests from all around the United States. They're different pockets and different ecclesiologies and theologies. We have that in our own Presbyterian Cleveland. I'm sure every Presbyterian has it different religious, um, communities. My Bishop, um, in Cleveland has this great saying, he says color within the lines, meaning the church, it has room to move, stay within the lines and you can, you can be the Dorothy day, the Rom can, you can be the Dorothy day,

the Romero, you can be the Fulton Sheen, you could be the Aquinas, you can be the Flannery O'Connor type. There's room for all that, but stay within the lines of the church color within the lines and you need the boundaries to keep you on the right, on the right foundations. And so you don't drift and being wacky, but there's a lot of room to move within there to be creative and to do things that maybe haven't done before. Or in 2024, we have to do things that we weren't doing in 2014 or in 2004. And it doesn't seem like long ago, but we have to meet the needs of, of where people are now.

I just finished that book actually to that, that Abigail Schreier's bad therapy and the other one that's popular now, um, the anxiety generation and both of them are addressing the problem with cell phones. And after 2012, when iPhones became so popular, how the levels of depression of girls went way up. Yeah. And then the porn and the gaming for the boys and how most young people are living in a virtual world and how we have to get them now into the real world.

Yeah. So those were problems we weren't dealing with 20 years ago even. Yeah. Because when people were online, when they left their computers they left their computers But now if you have your phone on you, you're always connected That's um, that's a new problem that we're dealing with and so we have to figure out how to deal with that as a church And what kind of distraction this is and at the same time this is where a lot of young people are So how do we engage them and not just young people but old people?

Doing this great, this sort of thing on their phone right now. Right. So how do we do that? Well, the, and, and Europe, you're a pioneer in this sort of thing and doing things that are new. And I'm sure you get criticized for the guests you have or things that are said. All right. But like, this is part of what it means to be a cat. You are doing your very best according to what you know to be good, right and true. And it's you're going to get flack for that. I mean, I can get flack.

I was supposed to wear as I told you, I had a when I was studying Rome, I bought a nice suit and I had this button up vest with a nice collar. I was going to wear my cufflinks. I'm glad I didn't because it's a little warm in here but this is what I call like my springsteen attire it's my blue collar work but I know someone's probably gonna say he should have been wearing a suit or a cassock like I'm in my collar I love being a priest like here we are it's okay we do that I think I think it makes us feel good we feel threatened so it makes me feel good to say that's wrong I'm in the right I'm doing something right now. I can call you out.

That is it. Yeah. You are so casual in that black t-shirt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. That's it.

I want to think about that a bit more. When we feel threatened, we look for security. Yeah. And unless you're saying the right words, you know, pointing to the right devotions and quick enough, then you're just a liberal modernist and I can write you off. Correct. And I feel superior and I get to condemn you.

Right. Who's in, who's out. Right. Yeah. No, I mean, it's not just churchy stuff. I may a couple, I was guilty of that as a teen. You know, you think we're going to pick on somebody and we can all feel it's, it's the scapegoating theory, right?

It's the renaissance art stuff. Thousand percent. So there you are, you're overweight or you have this look or you did this and then we gang up, we pick on you. We feel vindicated, high fives all around. I'm safe. Yeah. And that's this, that's a terrible sin. I did this about a year ago. I was in Minnesota, Minnesota. Was it the university of Minnesota, the purple and yellow, whatever. Someone will get very upset in the comments It's probably purple and yellow because Minnesota Vikings are purple and yellow

Well, I was at the big Minnesota University a campus I was at a coffee shop and there's a girl drinking a coffee and I'm just judging her because she's got the purple hair And the jeans that are so ripped. How are they even staying on? Yeah, you know, I'm just I'm not like saying to myself I'm gonna judge you. I just felt like why are people doing this? Why do they even staying on? You know, I'm just I'm not like saying to myself, I'm going to judge you. I just felt like, why are people doing this? Why do they make themselves ugly? Why are they like? And I see the book she's reading and it's my book, The Porn Myth. That's great.

Was assigned it for like her health class or something. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I went over, I was chatting with her, you know, and she was talking about how much she's getting out of it I'm like, oh, I am a jerk. Yeah. Yeah. And then what we do is we apply our narrow wretched hearts onto the heart of God Mm-hmm. How could he possibly forgive me because I wouldn't forgive me and he's like he's better than you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, what is culture? Well, we're gonna evangelize the culture. What is culture? Well, if we're going to evangelize the culture, what's that? I've heard life lived in common as a sort of short way of saying it, but what?

I just got done reading with my seminarians, the leisure leisure as a basis of culture. Joseph P. Peres famous book, and he talks about culture based on the cult and that what is it that you worship? So yeah, I think you look at a culture and see what is most common and what is most cherished and what is worshiped in the culture. And that's one of the ways that you can. Is that the thing that unites us? Is that what is that the idea?

The thing that we worship is the thing that we gather around or. I think it ought to be or it could be. But there can be healthy cultures and unhealthy cultures because it depends what is at the center of your culture? Yeah. Right. Do we have anything at the center of our culture? Do we even have a culture? I don't know if it's a merit to America have a culture like what is it? I think it was who wrote out Anthony.

Anthony Esselstyn said something like, what do we share about like a Super Bowl and a hangover after New Year's Eve? Is that what we have? Yeah. And every four years we have an election and get really angry. Yeah. Well, I definitely think we, we are not theological or philosophical enough. And so it's a lot easier to make politics our religion. I think that, that in many ways, American culture has replaced theology and philosophy with politics.

And if we only get this person in charge and then it becomes the will to power anyway, so we have to have this person in so we could have it our way. No talk of the common good, no talk of virtue. So yeah, I think we can, we can fall that way. I was reflecting recently about in, and I don't want to go back to the 13th century, but I do think there are nice things that we can learn from the Medieval's and even you go back a few hundred years that the tallest buildings in cities

would always be the churches, right? They're reaching up to God and it's a reminder of what's most important in the city. And you think when St. Pat's Cathedral was built in New York City, one of the tallest buildings, but now, I mean, it's the skyscrapers, it's the economics and finance and everything else. And money is important, power, wealth, honor, all those, you know, it's the most important things.

And the, well, Thomas did that too, right? So all the things that are supposed to serve our highest forms of worship, Have, have become the things that we worship. Yeah. So how do we evangelize culture then if we don't know what it is or if we're not, or if there's too many cultures, what do we stay local and evangelize that? Yeah. I think what we've been reading acts of the apostles lately and the one-on-one thing seems to go really well. And even we're doing one on one, people are eavesdropping in on the conversations. But I do think that's where it starts. Just recently we had the reading of Paul in the Areopagus. Yeah, yesterday. Yeah. And I preached on doing what I call cultural research. My seminarians laugh at it. But like if I go to a concert or go see

a film, I'm like, I'm doing cultural research. Why? Because St. Paul did cultural research. Before he got up in the Areopagus and started preaching, we hear that he went around and carefully observed the city. So he went around and was studying, okay, your shrine's here, shrine's there, da da da. Oh, here's a shrine to an unknown God. Boom, that's gonna be my traction.

That's gonna be my starting point when I get up and do my preaching. And then a little later on in the reading, he says, your poets say, so he knew what the poets were saying. So he knew the culture. He knew, okay, here's your shrine. Here's the basic setup of your city. I've studied that. I've done my homework. I know what your poets say. And now I'm going to tell you about the resurrected Lord. Did it work? Did he convert everyone? No, because some people said, get out of here. Others said, we'll hear you another day. But a few did follow. So the cultural research seems to have worked in that situation. And that's one way. There's a lot of ways to evangelize. But I like that a lot. Like I like, if people are listening to a song

and it's very popular, I want to know why they're listening. Why is that interesting to you? Because there's got to be something in there that's hitting your heart, hitting your head. And if I could somehow connect that to the gospel or to some reality that you haven't thought of yet, I think that's super helpful. I love doing that. I think that's super helpful. I love doing that.

I think that's, I mean, Baron talks about it as the seeds of the word, like finding what's good in the culture. And then that's a way in with people because if you can find what people like and what's good and show them you're interested, they're much more likely to be interested in what you have to say then, right?

I think all of that's exactly right. Although I do worry sometimes that we bend over backwards to try to find the good in the latest movie or the latest novel when it's filled with blasphemy and pornography. And I wonder why we wouldn't just condemn it outright and say, well, of course there's good in that. There's good in everything. There's good in Lucifer, the fact that he exists. I'm not going to spend any time reviewing it and encouraging people to watch it. It should be let there be no hint of impurity among you.

Right. Says which I love in, you know, generally. And then I and then we all get offended when someone points to the particular thing that we're engaged in that is actually impure. So do you bring back the index? Yeah, for Catholics, I don't know. Or do you? I mean, the USCCB used to do the the I don't know if they still do it. They had their rating system for all the films was like a one, a two, a three,

then morally offensive. You know, this is funny. It's like it's a similar question to like freedom of speech, hey, because someone will talk about hate speech and you go, well, yeah, like we all know that there is speech that's hateful. Sure. Yeah. But the problem is, as soon as you tell me how to fix that like, okay, how you tell me then this hate speech We don't like it. What should we do? Well, we should maybe suppress some of it

Okay, tell me how and as soon as you start doing that you like ah now it looks right now It's like you've got worse problems. Yeah, that's why I don't know I'd have to think about that more There's certain things that I would I mean there are certain things that the church forbids, like pornography. You could put that on the list of movies and books, I suppose. And but. I saw poor things with Emma Stone and it was almost soft core porn in there. She won an Oscar for it. Her acting was. Is it? Do you know the story? First of all, who's Emma Stone? Second, she's a.

She's in. I'm really bad with actors and actresses. She's an excellent actor. And she starred in this film. It was like an art house film. Was she from the Emma Stone? I there that there she is. She's beautiful. All actors are beautiful. Golly, she was she was in that one that La La Land.

La La Land. I haven't watched that. But there's a movie of her recently where she looks super exhausted. That's it. Poor things. She looks gorgeous. She's so beautiful. Yeah, well, get this. Yes, that that could you pull up that image of her? I this is all I'm I'm traveling Europe and every everywhere I go.

I'm seeing this image. This is this is so pretty. This is this would be interesting question for you. Like would I I would recommend you see this film because I know the work that you've done with pornography. I also know that you very much cherish the virtue of chastity. You're a good married man. I would you never watch this with your children.

But I would. Here's the. So lovely. Yeah.. Yeah. Well, here's the story again, spoiler alert, but the film starts off. She jumps off a bridge and takes her life. She's pregnant. Oh, she dies. The baby lives. A mad scientist takes the brain out of the living baby and puts it in her fully formed adult human body. And then she has to start by learning how to walk and learning how to talk. How interesting. Yeah, it's interesting, but it's also horrifying because it becomes this existential again, it's a, it's a will to power.

It is that my life has no meaning, and only when I act do I create meaning, and it's not so much choosing the good. It's simply any actions I do, and sexual acts that may be off limits, I'm doing them, that's making me more of who I am. It's a horrifying film. And I thought, thought like contrast that to

someone like Flannery O'Connor who looks at the world that comes with meaning and I am responding to what's given. I am not manipulating. I don't have a mad scientist. I'm working with what's naturally there. I think that's a fascinating theological and philosophical argument. Do I think most people should see that film?

No. Do I think you should see it? And I would have a wonderful conversation with you about it. Yes. Is it porn pornography in it? Yeah. Yeah. So I could never watch. You could never watch it. I think it would be shameful to even patronize it. Would you? You would. Could you look away at parts or something? Would you would I wouldn't watch an edited version?

No, I think I'd be so I'm so I'm so I think it's so offensive that people would produce things like that That I wouldn't even want to pay money or give it the time of day. I'd rather condemn it. Okay now I Speaking strongly so you can try to temper me and I but it's like it's shameful It's shameful to put pornography in front of people I'm getting the impression from the baby brain in an adult woman that there might be some pedophilia kind of themes in this. Like I imagine she's engaging in sex acts as a little.

I have no idea. I'm just guessing from what you're talking about. But like someone would take advantage of a grown woman who's got an infant's brain. Is that happening? By that time, I think she's, you don't know how old she is at the time, but by that time.

Anyway, what's wrong with my argument? By that time, I think she's you don't know how old she is at the time. But by that time, Anyway, what's wrong with my argument that if there's intrinsic evil within a movie, you shouldn't watch it and you shouldn't be telling people that there's some good stuff in this and like, there's some really cool philosophical themes. Who gives a shit? Find the philosophical themes in other works. I don't think. I put it this way. I can engage people. Who have watched the film.

In a way that maybe no one else can maybe or maybe I don't know. But what if you came across a city of people who only watch pornography. You wouldn't be like well I really want to see pornography. I know you're not saying this. I'm not not saying, yeah, of course you're not. But you know, I want to enter into their world and see what's good in that.

And so I can use that to help them. No, just go in and condemn them for being evil and invite them to something beautiful. And when they say, well, you don't understand you have to, he's like, no, I don't need to get into a sewer and play in shit to know what it's like. Then again, this goes back to the. The free speech. Where is the line with a film that you would see? Yeah, great question. Nazi. That's a great question.

Like, would you see? Yeah. Give me a. I don't know. Like pulp fiction. Is that too much? Or is it is how about violence? And is it just sex or violence or so? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. But these these questions interest me because. But see, I mean, what about like Bernini's the is it the the the the rape of Persephone or the Daphne?

Like when you see Greek statuary of a of a of a woman being raped by a Greek God, can you look at that? Yeah, because I wouldn't consider it pornographic. OK, I haven't seen the image. I don't recall the image you're referring to, but I would imagine it's not pornographic because I would think of pornography as material which depicts erotic behavior intended to sexually arouse or which has that effect. And that doesn't that doesn't unless you're perverted

and you don't know how to see something like that. I don't think so. You've heard of the fallacy of the beard, which is to say, OK, just because I don't know when a beard begins, it doesn't mean I can't say what a beard is. I see. And it would be something like that, I suppose. I guess I'd say maybe I don't know what's acceptable, but I know it's unacceptable. But I still think you're right to press me there. Yeah, I don't. I.

And I have I'm increasingly having a I have a big problem with violence, too. I think too many Christians write off pornography films, which is great, while they're perfectly happy to watch a John Wick film, which is just a bloodlust film. What's I don't know. Oh, it's just you beat the living snot out of your enemies who've done something bad. Take revenge. There's a bunch't know. Oh, it's just you beat the living snot out of your enemies who've done something bad. Take revenge. There's a bunch of revenge movies where they just. How about Fight Club? Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't watch Fight Club because there's a few sex scenes in it.

Are there even audible, there's audible things that take place that I wouldn't do. Now, a lot of this is coming from my own wounds, right? Yeah. And that doesn't mean I'm wrong to put that up front But right like I I was really hurt as a kid by pornography And so there's a weakness in me that I have to guard against like someone who breaks their arm and probably shouldn't be doing certain Activities even long after so I the first thing I do whenever I hear about a movie is I look up and say is this Sex stuff I can't see it now I'm not saying that people shouldn't what I'm not saying fight clubs should be off limits.

I can't recall everything that takes place in it. But. But here's a question for you. Go. Because I like that you press me and I'll need to think about that more like, where's the line that I am acceptable enduring and why is it there? But then I'd say to you, like, is there a line where you and Bishop Barron and others shouldn't be reviewing it and saying there are seeds of the gospel within it? And because when you do that, you kind of taught you're kind of in a way inviting people to watch the film.

Yeah. And you'll say something like, not everyone should watch this, but the sophisticated people like you. No, I well. And I don't want to do that. And so, but I also don't want to do that, and so, but I also don't want to pretend that a film doesn't exist where the woman, one actor of the year and say. And and say.

There's nothing that I can say about her work in the film. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? There's bound to be goodness in the film. There's bound to be good acting, something like that. I guess I I'm I I fight for that. And maybe if. Everyone said it was great, then I would kind of push the other way. And maybe that's part of my makeup, but

I'm I'm always trying to look for now. And philosophically, I have major, major issues with the film, but I also think it gives me traction to talk about why some of this is so wrong, because in the film she is thinking that she is finding meaning, happiness, purpose, by doing things that are abhorrent. So there's something about those acts that on some level makes her feel powerful,

but at the end of the day is, is making the world dark. And one of the, actually, when I reviewed Wildcat, what I said was that the difference between Bella in Poor Things and Flannery O'Connor in Wildcat is you'd want to be Flannery's friend. No one would want to be friends with Bella. So I think that contrast is a good one. Now, would it be better to watch an edited version on the airplane of something? And I've done that with films, you know, that you can do that sort of thing.

So I don't know. And I don't wanna sound like an elitist. I don't wanna sound like, oh, Father Damien could watch these. I don't mean that. But I do remember when Nacho Libre came out. Did you see Nacho Libre? I love it.

It was given a morally offensive rating by the USCCB. Okay, because they thought it was making fun of the religious or Christ or something. I think so, but I was like, no, there's like something really charming here. And it's a guy who actually wants to do right. And it's funny. And every time he jumps, he farts. What is that line? He says, people think I don't know. No buttload of crap about the gospel, but I do. Yeah. That's funny.

Yeah. And, and what he wants, he thinks he wants the glory. He wants to be like Ram says, but as it turns out, he didn't want that all along. He just, he, he, he wanted to use his God given gifts for good. And he winds up doing that saving the orphanage and what he thought was a crush on incarnation, which he did have. He kind of rightly ordered or God rightly ordered his, his passions by the end and he's doing good.

So I thought, all right, I can watch that film. Now that's way better than poor things. But I do think as the vicar for evangelization there, I can say some things about this and I would give that film an a morally offensive rating. But there would be movies even if they became really popular if they were really a reprehensible surely you wouldn't like what I got to watch this so I can evangelize would you. Not to evangelize but if enough people were to in there say what what would you say about this film. And they're say, what would you say about this film? Like, Flannery O'Connor, in her time, there was an index, a Catholic index. These were books that were forbidden.

And if you read these books without permission from your pastor, it was a sin that was confessible. And I imagine that was a great idea, I've got to assume, back then at a certain time. I'm not sure how that works today with the flow of information. Right. I don't know if you could do it today, but she would request from her pastor to to read these books that were on the index.'t know if you could do it today, but she would request from her pastor to, to read these books that were on the index and she got permission to do it. In fact, that was part of,

that was part of what she did and she would review some of these things. Like I think James Joyce was on the index for a while. So yeah, I certainly don't want to endorse pornography or any of these things, but there are certain films that may have sex scenes or nude scenes that I that was totally unnecessary the film could have done well without it, but I Still think it was a good film. Do you like game even a great idea? Yeah, okay. I let's talk about a fun. I've been a while I'd buy a brave heart and I even was okay with like the side brush shot I don't think it was needed but it was done tastefully. It's tastefully as an okay brush shot could be done. That was right after he marries her

You remember? He kind of he approaches her and she's naked but it's I thought it was a classy side brush shot. Okay It's just so you and I can both be hated by the commenters now. Yeah, I'm gonna get killed and lose my job now No, no, no No, but it's a what we're doing is we're trying to wrestle here, right? Because we both realize that it's if you were going to say you may not read or engage a medium that contains intrinsically evil acts,

then you've just gotten rid of the Bible. I mean, the Bible involves rape and murder and all sorts of things. So none of us. It's hard to know where the line is, isn't it? Because I might say here and, you know, Paul says, don't let there be a hint of impurity among you. Okay, someone might say to me, well, how does that not apply to a buttload of crap about that seems a little bit. I mean, yeah. So.

Or yeah, Ignacio having a crush on in Carnacion and how, how to understand that. And I, that's probably why I got the morally offensive rating because of the vocation stuff, but it resolved. And, and a lot of times in life, it is a fallen world and people are struggling with things and, and doing nefarious things and grace still has to get into those sorts of things. struggling with things and doing nefarious things and grace still has to get into those sorts of things. Now, again, back to O'Connor, because I think she is able to present the darkness of the

world without ever getting lewd or pornographic. And that's part of her brilliance. And she will insinuate some things and you'll know something's happening, but she doesn't have to spell the whole thing out and, you know, have nude scenes or pornographic scenes. But you certainly know something's happening or something has happened. And it's. I wonder what it says about our imagination and as a people, as a culture that we don't know how to write stories that begin with wicked, shameful people who gradually become beautiful and good. wicked, shameful people who gradually become beautiful and good.

It seems like a lot of the stories, it's like we say it's like the Shakespearean king or whatever. You know, I'm thinking of Breaking Bad. Like, I've not seen Breaking Bad and I need to. Yeah. Like, so there you go. So here I'll just show that I'm a hypocrite by saying like, it was an incredible series with seriously problematic and sometimes semi-pornographic things taking place in it. Yeah, really problematic thing.

But again, like we like the movie because he begins decent or naive and then he begins he becomes incredibly wicked until maybe the last episode. And then he says something that's somewhat redemptive, you know. But like, why can't we do the opposite? Why can't it be a story about someone who's wicked and converts? Like, why doesn't that grip us? Aristotle would say you usually want a character who's a little bit better

than the average bear and then has a flaw. So you don't like starting with someone totally wicked. I don't know. OK. I mean, you do. Sometimes you have like the Cinderella stories or someone who's like rags to riches. We do like those sorts of things. But I think it's going.

Sorry, I was going to say I love horror. Yeah, that's weird. I hate horror. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's from the devil. It's like death metal. Oh, I'm just kidding. I was like, oh, dear. I kind of like death metal, too. This is Christian death metal that I like to run to.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. I would never, ever listen to it like while I was doing anything other than hurting my body on with weights of the trip. So that is interesting. I like short stories. I write really poor short stories. I've read a few of them. Yeah, it's fun. I mean, I liked as a kid, I liked Guns N' Roses. Yeah, I remember in seventh grade, like hearing appetite for Welcome to the Jungle and Paradise City and Sweet Child of Mine and that whole album, I know by heart. And it, it, yeah. Did they write November Rain? Was that a cover?

Was that a cover or did they write that? No, they wrote that. That is a gorgeous song. It is, but there's, there's a lot of darkness on there and some like lewd sexuality and, but do I, do I say that whole album is bad? What I want if my nephew listening to it, probably not yet, but I mean, eventually you're going to have to encounter like the world and have to say something about it. So I think like you have kids, you, you want to protect your kids to a certain point, but you're also preparing them exposing them

to things that engage in the world because you didn't, I've seen enough of you, you're, you're so overprotective and then the kids go out and they go crazy. So you, you want to show them slowly how to engage the world and what's good and what's bad and how to build good friendships and be able to navigate things in certain ways. And there, so there's no slide rule for that. There's no perfect formula to get that exactly right. That is living the life of virtue and saying, we're not looking at this or we're, I mean, yeah.

I think it's, we're getting into the heart of things here and it's difficult work and you need grace and you need prayer and you need to be smart. And you if you go too far then you gotta say that you're not going there again that was a bad move you know or if we didn't go and. Are you yeah. I know bishop baron isn't here to defend himself so I probably not fair to wonder what he would do but I would like bishop baron to say here's a really popular movie and it's soate, I wouldn't even waste my time watching it and shame on you if you watched it. I'd like him to say that. Then I'd be a lot more open to hearing some of his interesting things. I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the idea that basically anything short of full on hardcore pornography is something we can learn something from.

That seems obviously false. But where is that line? I don't know. What do you think about. Like being able to say something to someone who has listened to, I don't know, some album that maybe. Like back in the day, I don't know, NWA or again, like Guns N' Roses

or maybe Megadeth or something and then being able to respond, like I listen, sorry, I listen to that album and here's the, and you're able to actually engage because what people often think is you just say no to anything that's good and you're saying all this is bad and you're not even giving it a look or trying to understand what it is the art that I've created here.

I'll give you an example. Or the story that I've written or the painting that I've painted, you know. Yeah, I'll give you an example. I used to be a missionary with net ministries and we'd go to high schools all over the country and I could always Get to know the metalheads Okay, you know with their Metallica t-shirts and their Pantera t-shirts because I know what's attractive about that And I'd like a lot of their music and so I was able to kind of enter that world Whereas if I just came in and when you know, heavy metal has a lot of problematic content

Yeah, that would have they wouldn't have opened up to me, right? Right. Yeah, I just came in and when you know, heavy metal has a lot of problematic content, they wouldn't have opened up to me. Right? Right. Yeah. I think that's exactly. So that's, I'm asking that I guess on a film level and then how much skin or nudity or sexuality or not. Sexuality is a bad way to say it. Sex in a film is like that is to, we don't watch it at all. And you know, and when is it pornography and when is it not art? I mean, I don't know if we'll solve that here, but I mean, these are important questions.

So. Yeah. I suppose if the primary point of the sexual activity is to essentially take the role of a prostitute, right? To essentially perform the role of prostitute would perform if she were there, then that is pornography. So I like that. Hmm.

What if it remains in R rated film? Well, I'll give you an example. Game of Thrones. Never seen it, but I hear it's got tons of sex scenes in it. Tons of porn. Yeah. Okay. So game. I never watched it because I'm cool.

But Game of Thrones, honestly, people who are watching this right now, if you didn't watch Game of Thrones, congratulations. Like honest to God, like you. Yeah. Maybe maybe you're braver than everyone else who watched it because they were pressured into it. But I wouldn't say Game of Thrones is pornography. Okay. It contains pornography. Is that the distinction? That's what I would say. Yeah. Okay. Cause it'd be like,

imagine if you took a work like Pride and Prejudice or something, and then maybe she inserted some pornographic scene to the middle of it. You wouldn't know whether this is a porn book. You'd be like, no, this is like a book of great fiction that involves a very unfortunate pornographic scene that seems beneath the dignity of this book or something So I would say Game of Thrones isn't pornography Game of Thrones from what I've heard is a really excellent well-written well-acted movie Oh, sorry series that contains pornography. I say yeah. Well young pope. Did you watch young pope? I think I tried you know what I think I find is I find I feel offended

When I watch a movie and I get the sense that rather than trying to be honest, they're trying to sort of usurp my expectations. You know, like I was trying to watch some show recently and there were two Sheilas at a bar and some fella says, you know, what do you do? And he assumed they did something that women would do but it turns out they were Scientists and she was Asian and the other one was black That shit I hate that so much or the transgender kid who's he's hurting and confused But the movie really wants you to feel affection for him when I feel like they're trying to When their main interest seems to be to usurp my expectations or to make me feel affection for something to sort of

Camel knows their way. Mm-hmm. I just I'm offended by it. Well propaganda not it feels like propaganda Yeah, yeah. Well good good art will last over time. I mean, yeah, there's a reason that things are classics because they're not just hot for a minute or two or a few years, but you go back and we're still watching Citizen Kane or we're still watching whatever. That's Thursday's favorite movie. Really? Is it? Yeah. Citizen Kane or we're still watching whatever. So those favorite movie. Really? Is it? Yeah.

I tried watching Casablanca recently because everyone was shocked in a pool that I'd never watched it and it was fun. But I will say I love Hitchcock. Oh, really? Did you ever watch? Is it Rope or The Rope? No. Oh, I'd highly recommend that. And then I was here with Peter Crave recently and he told me to watch Harvey, which is about that fella in It's a Wonderful Life.

Jimmy Stewart, who has seasoned invisible rabbit. Yeah, this is a movie. I forget where it's from. Maybe the fifties or something, but it was so entertaining. He's from Indiana, Pennsylvania. I was there recently for a parish mission and they have the Jimmy Stewart Museum. Wow. Yeah. But I don't rear windows. Not a good one Stewart Museum. Wow. Yeah. But I don't. Rear window is another good one. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So no, I that's that's a good point, you know, because a lot of the top 20 songs that we're hearing that we heard 10 years ago, we had been here anymore. It's just. There's no substance to it. Man, have you checked out Exodus 90 lately?

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So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray fantastic Hello dot com slash Matt Fred. What is Something that's a classic that's considered a classic that you don't think should be considered a classic and what's something that isn't? Considered a classic that you think really should be? Hmm. You should have given me this question. It's a difficult question, right? Put it on me right now. Um. Well, let me start with one that is a classic and is rightfully a classic.

How's that? Sure. Shawshank Redemption. OK, I've watched that a long time, but I remember being. Yeah, I liked it. It's that? Sure. Shawshank Redemption. Okay. I haven't watched that in a long time, but I remember being, I liked it. A lot. It's a great film and it was actually filmed in Ohio at the old, uh, prison down in what? Massaline or something like that. Massaline. I don't remember, but it's a city in Ohio. It's an old prison, but it's a great story. And I read it as a,

as an incarnational story that the Andy Dufresne is a nice, he's a he's a great Christ character, so he gets thrown in prison, but he really didn't do what he what he was supposed to do. But while he's in prison, he's making everybody else batteries, calling out their gifts and eventually has this great. Mansfield, Ohio, is where I showed how. Yeah, he has this great, great escape at the end, which is like the deep dive into the Pasco mystery, the dying and the rise. And it's wonderful.

So we actually unpacked that film with my little nerd camp in the summer. Toy lego. That's one of the films. So we, yeah, we, we pick films to watch and, and study. What else would be a class? Something that's classic that people consider classic that shouldn't be. Now I will offend so many people here. I am not a Star Wars fan. I'm sure Star Wars is classic and also Lord of the Rings, but I don't like science fiction or fantasy in general. I like straight up like realistic dark fiction. That's why I like the open. I have not read enough Dostoevsky to like Dostoevsky. I like Leo Tolstoy's Tolstoy short stories.

Death of Ivan Ilyich. You read that. Holy crap. No, or if I have, I haven't. Is it long or short? She could read in about an hour. Oh, then I, maybe I have, but I don't, I'm not a huge, um, Russian fiction expert. So if I don't know something, then I won't talk about anything. So I'm not going to go there. That's the difference between PhDs and me.

Yeah. You talk about everything that I know nothing about. And you refuse to talk about it. If I don't know something, I'm not going to talk about it. So yeah. What would you say? Because let me think through this as we're talking. I don't I don't

I'm trying to think what films I really love well What's a rather than answer that question because I don't think I have an answer to that either What is a good film? I've seen recently three billboards outside of Ebbing, Missouri. That's great. I actually review that film Yeah, isn't that incredible? That's a great. I want to see it recently I watched it with my wife about a year ago. Never heard of it before. Someone said you should watch this movie. So I watched it. And I was re-enchanted with cinema again. I thought this is why it exists. This was so profound. Whereas a lot of the movies I find I watch, I'm like, that was just a waste of time. There's a hard scene with that priest in the film. Do you remember that?

No. When he comes over to the house and they're, they're bringing up the pedophilia stuff with him and what, and well, yeah, she kind of dresses down the priest and the film and then moves on. I haven't seen it in a while. I remember there's a great, there's a great scene where they're putting up the billboard and that, and there's a, uh, a small person in the film, right? And he's helping put up the billboard.

There's a, there's a real, um, act of kindness that takes place there. That there was a turning point. I haven't seen the film probably five years, but I would recommend it. I would really recommend you watch that. That was a good movie. What else? Sunset limited was another movie. What's his, what's his name? He wrote that all the wild, all the pretty horses and a road, the road, call me McCarthy. He's incredible.

Did he do talk about dark? No country for old men. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that is classic. Is that classic? I mean, Fargo's classic. Okay.

Oh brother, where are thou? Anything Cohen brothers, I think is classic. I that classic? I mean, Fargo's classic. Okay. Oh brother, where art thou? Anything Coen Brothers, I think is classic. I love Coen Brothers. Yeah. Yeah, so but I think most of those are classic Why haven't they taken flannery stories and yeah, if anybody could do it, they could do really good. I don't know. Okay Yeah, so anything Coen Brothers I think is is Classic how about Big Lebowski? Oh my god offensive to you. Yeah. No, I it is. Is classic. How about Big Lebowski? Oh, my God. Offensive to you? Yeah, no, I it is, but it's I feel bad now that I know. So, OK, OK, OK.

In fact, a thing my friend and I frequently say to each other when one of us is like vibrating, you know, I mean, nothing is, dude, you know that line? We just threw a bag of your dirty undies is nothing is effed, dude. Do you remember that line?

Is that when they're over the bridge or something? They're delivering the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the best line, no, Walter, you're not wrong. You're just an asshole. One of the best lines. My favorite scene is the ashes when they go to,

is it Donnie? Oh my god And then what's his face keeps bringing up the Vietnam War and they throw the ashes over and they get all covered with them Yeah, but yeah, Julianne Moore in that film Yeah, no that bits. I always fast forward that bit. Okay, it's weird. Yeah, so I hope you know I didn't mean to sort of shame you or anything like that. I mean, but you're making me think yeah Which I like to do. Like, is this I mean, it's a question of prudence and it's a question of temperance. Like, are there?

Because it sounds like you're you're. Upringing and your experience with pornography is different than mine, and so maybe things are triggered there that might not be for someone else. Yeah. I think maybe an analogy might be like someone who had a meth problem. Maybe they can't watch Breaking Bad because it makes them angry or anxious. Yeah. Now there's a difference there, I think, though, because I think you can like morally watch somebody pretending to take meth in a way that you can't

morally or morally acceptably watch someone engaging in a sex act. But yeah. So because we want like. We want rules to follow, we want to know this is good, this is bad, this is right, this is wrong. But I do think like virtue this this is prudent or this is imprudent. And I think there's certain films like that you would say it would be prudent for me to like so I watched the young pope.

Would I recommend that to everyone? No, because it would be imprudent for you to watch it or intemperate for you to watch it. So that was a big part of what Elizabeth Anscombe was about. What lets you and McIntyre too in the the virtue ethics tradition, use the virtues to describe human action. This is just, or this is unjust rather than good or bad, or I mean, it's obviously important, but if you can actually name the virtue that's taking place, that's even more helpful, I think. Right?

It's helpful in what sense? Cause it's more specific. Yes. It's helpful in what sense? Because it's more specific. Yes, I think it specifies what the human action is at that point. And I'm not necessarily. I think, see, I think I'd be a lot more comfortable having this conversation with people like yourself or Bishop Barron, if they could point me to a movie that isn't flat out pornography that they would condemn wholeheartedly and not recommend anyone watch.

You see what I mean like it bothers me That I'm getting the impression that and maybe it's a wrong impression That certain Catholics would say porn out of bounds, but anything slightly less Some people watch it. Do you know me DC why that feels? Yeah, like as Christians The idea that pawns off limits, but basically everything else some people might be at watch The idea that pawns off limits, but basically everything else. Some people might be at a watch. So. I have a good argument against that. I guess it would depend on why they're watching it.

Yeah. And one of the questions could be, so let's say if you're a, if you are working for the FBI or someone's working for the FBI and you probably, so you. Watching pornography is not intrinsically evil. You have to, you have to do that sort of thing. So for the sake of cultural research and coming on, not that I knew I was going to come on here and talk about poor things or anything, but that I have seen the film and I can comment on it and say,

I would recommend that film to very few people. But, and you would say, I absolutely don't want to see it. Okay. That's cool. That's fine. Good. And it's working. I've got it. I've got it. But I can't take back the fact that I saw it, but I can say, I saw this and this is what I can say about it. And philosophically, like to manipulate a human being and, and, and it's all atheistic materialism and it's all will to power. And if all your experiences as a woman have been being dominated by men, then it makes sense to me that your natural response is going to be to create a film where it's a woman willing herself to power and all her meaning comes out of her agency and making

decisions even if they're not for the good, it's the decision. So I can glean that from that film and then use that as an example in culture to say, this is, this is, this is what that philosophy looks like embodied and it's horrifying. Yep. And you can say, you didn't have to see that film to say that. All right, maybe I didn't, but I did. And I can's horrifying. Yeah. And you can say you didn't have to see that film to say that. All right. Maybe I didn't, but I did. And I can say that. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and in good conscience, I think I can say that.

And I, and I, I, I think, I think that's all right. I think I need to go back on something I said a moment ago, because it sounded horrendous. What did you say? It's not immoral to watch pornography. People have to wait till I finished my thought here or else you're going to demonize me. It's not immoral to watch pornography. People have to wait till I finished my thought here or else you're going to demonize me. It's not immoral to watch pornography, filmed sex acts and see, here's why. Let's start with the first one.

OK, it's obviously not wrong to watch pornography because an FBI someone might have to identify. I am in a child pornography case to identify a victim. Right. Right. Um, it's funny, but I really find the whole topic of pornography really interesting, just philosophically, like, uh, even like, um, we're getting into dangerous territory, aren't we? But suppose, suppose, go there. Let's see. Let's see. I don't know if this will wrap up nicely, but we'll go, suppose a couple go to an Airbnb and some creep has cameras in the room.

Okay. And so now there exists a pornographic file, you know, that these two people are a part of. Is it pornography? That's interesting. So suppose there's a video camera on the back porch that's just meant to detect whatever. It's a video camera on the back porch that's just meant to detect whatever. It's a security camera. And suppose the couple engage in the sexual act on the back porch, not believing themselves to be watched. So now we have a film sex act that isn't pornography. Isn't that interesting?

And now if the owner of the Airbnb goes, oh, gee, someone's who's on the back porch. Bloody Nora. Now we have a woman who watched a filmed sex act and none of it was pornography yet. Am I wrong? And does it or can it become porn? 100% I can. Yeah. So you uploaded somewhere and then. Yeah, of course.

And that point is based on the intention of the consumer. Yeah. So you've got that you've got the creator, you've got the consumer, you've got the participants and it feels like in some sense they all. Yeah. But that is interesting. Like, don't you think that's true?

Yes. You've got a filmed sex act and it's not a good Catholic couple. Yeah. Honeymoon. Mother outside. I don't know. But it's a nice, faithful. There's no mosquitoes. Yeah, yeah.

Everything. And but someone filmed it and then it's taken somewhere. It becomes something. Yeah, they didn't. It becomes something that it wasn't intended to be. Now, the reason I find that stuff interesting is not to come up with like weird situations where something might not be perverse. It's to try to find out what is perverse about pornography.

It's making a distinction to find. Yeah. It's what's called a phenomenological reduction. perverse, it's to try to find out what is perverse about pornography. Making a distinction to find it. It's what's called a phenomenological reduction. So you remove everything that's not and see what still stands to make it what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's cool. Yeah. Good. So so yeah. What else do you want to talk about?

Bruce Springsteen, we talk about Bruce Springsteen. You know, like I'm right. Yeah, no, I don't. He just seems like a pro Biden liberal boomer. OK, look at this. People training AI to identify porn online have to review. Yeah, lots of images to make tools. Well, and that's true of Covenant eyes. So I used to work at Covenant Eyes and. They have a screen recognition software now, so it doesn't depend on text.

They can actually tell whether or not something's pornographic, you know. Or even so they had to have people rating pages, so it would get like, oh, this this page got through and they report it. Someone now has to review that page to see whether, yeah, this is in fact pornography. But what they would do is they would it would be super low resolution screens for these people. And then covenant lies even had a therapist available for them weekly to process like someone has to do this stuff.

It's very unfortunate that it's more women do those works? Yeah, I think they had all women do those. Yeah, cause men are more visually stimulated. Yeah. So, all right, I won't talk Springsteen's politics cause I'm really not interested in that, but I saw him a couple of weeks ago. He's 74 years old now.

He played a three hour and seven minutes show. That's impressive. I took one of my seminarians who was just ordained a Deacon. He'll be a priest next year. He never saw him big music fan. And what I found was when someone, and by the way, Springsteen's favorite author, Flannery O'Connor, and he said he would not, he didn't understand original sin until he read her stories. So this all comes around. But when I saw him perform,

play live with an awesome band for three hours and seven minutes, I thought, when I'm 74 years old, I want to be like that. I want to take good care of my body. I want to take good care of my mind. I want to be able to give everything I have and pour it out in such a way. So seeing good art and good artists ought to make one's like inspire. I what he is to rock and roll. I want to be in the Diocese of Cleveland as a vicar for evangelization. I want to work that hard, take care of myself, surround myself with good people,

play, play well together and inspire other people to say, I like that. So, yeah, that's very important to me. 74. Yeah. You know, I was just seeing Jerry Seinfeld's done a lot of work lately because he's got that movie that just came out and he's 70. Yeah. It looks terrific. Yeah.

Well, it's funny, you know, when you're young, your body's pretty resilient. You can eat crappy food. You cannot exercise and all that. And I think it's similar to the spiritual life. When you're young, your soul's even more resilient. Like, when I was younger, my prayer life wasn't what it is now, and my workout wasn't what it is now in terms of my physical life, my body life, spiritual life. But now, if I don't have the disciplines, I'm really in trouble. And so is everybody

that's entrusted to my pastoral care. If I'm not praying every day, if I'm not working out every day, then I'm not clearing my mind, my body doesn't feel good, I'm not sleeping well, and the older you get, the less resilient your body and soul become and you have to do those things or else. And if you haven't been building up those practices, it's hard to switch all of a sudden. And the temptation is, well, I'll just take these pills or I'll just do these kind of things. And rather than doing the hard work to get you to the point where you can now, I could get hit by a car and have a heart attack. I don't know. I hope I don't have a heart attack, but it feels good to,

to take care of oneself, your body, your mind, your spirit, because because then you you have more of yourself to give I think That's pretty important stuff and again. That's yeah, you may not like his music or not like his politics But when I see him perform on stage, well, I also did something there that I like I also didn't go see DC and who I'm Metallica, right? So yeah, so I'm the same like if but Australia Australia ACC are Australian. That's right. I know they are Australian But I don't think someone came from I don't know if they some of them came from. I don't know. They're a mixed batch. But point is, I grew up with Metallica and I if they were playing tomorrow night

and I had a night free and someone invited me, I would be legitimately excited. Yeah. Yeah. So they're they're awesome, too. La yeah. Lars has struggled a lot with isn't Lars Ulrich. There's James. Oh, James. I feel yeah. Lars is the drummer. Drama. Yeah. James. Yeah. He's had drugs and porn and a lot with isn't Lars Ulrich there? James. Oh, James has the Lars is the drummer. Yeah, James. Yeah.

He said drugs and porn and a lot of addictions. Yeah. Yeah. There was a documentary. I believe it was some kind of monster was the name of the documentary. And this was back in about 2000 or thereabouts. And this is back when it was almost like cool to brag about betting women and things like that. Whereas I feel like today it it feels like the tide's turning.

People like if you're like chased and if you're like, I don't watch porn cause that's like gay or something like people like that, there's a growing respect for people who are like, no, I'm not, I'm not, that's shameful even for a chimp. I'm not going to do that. Point is, um, James had, uh, you know, I used to do this. I'd get drunk. I'd wake up in a bed with some woman. I don't know who she is, where I am. I got a show to play. I was out of my head. It's like now, you know, life's more predictable.

I have my wife and my children and life's great. And it was awesome. He was evangelizing without really knowing it, or at least talking about the truth and beauty and promoting the beauty of good human sexuality without meaning to. Well, see, we don't have enough models of it that are credible because when people hear chastity or when they hear celibacy or the Catholic Church's teachings, they think all knows and they think misery and it's complete repression, but to see someone who's experienced redemption and, and healthiness and, and being fully alive

and having real friends, like as a celibate, I don't have sex. I don't look at porn. I don't masturbate those kinds of things, but I have to have deep friendships. I have to have people who know my heart. I have to exercise. I have to pray. I need art in my life. I need beauty.

I need good food and all those human things that actually allow me to flourish. And I'm not saying I'm perfectly flourishing, but I would put myself against most men in terms of like pretty happy, happy guy. I mean, I get my go get down sometimes, but, um, I think when you see that and you see married men who are loving their wives well and loving their children's well, children's children well. Um, and when you see priests who are living their life well, children's children well. Um, and when you see priests who are living their life well, it's inspiring. And it also says that's possible for me. I, I can do that and maybe I'm here now, but I can, I just hit my microphone.

Sorry. I can, I can eventually get there. Those are, that's where it's at, but we don't who's who's showing that and who's telling that story? Um, yeah, even a lot of movies, they don't show the beauty of a older married couple. It's usually the beginning of love. Yeah. Romantic love. Right. The one exception I keep pointing to is Fargo.

I love that relationship. Oh, that's yeah. Yeah. Is it Peggy? No, Marge. Margie. Margie. Yeah. And Norm. Yeah. Is it Peggy? No, Marge. Marge. Yeah. And Norm.

Yeah. Yeah. He gets up and he makes the breakfast for her. Yeah. And she's. Now what she's. Nine months pregnant. What he should have is forced her to not go to work.

I think that would have been the more loving thing to do, but there was just that beautiful gentleness. Yeah. There's another film I saw recently. I'm trying to think, was it a show? And I thought, wow, they nailed this. nailed this oh no it's the movie once. Have you ever seen it love the movie once you want to see the movie once there's your that should be classic that should be a classic film because at the end. There's temptation to go a certain way and the decision is made now I'm gonna'm going to because there's he stays faithful, right?

I don't I remember seeing the film and saying, oh my gosh, 2008. I think the Irish show, right? The redheaded fella. Yeah. Excellent singer. Yeah, it's yeah. Okay. I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember seeing it and saying this is I can't believe I'm seeing this on screen and I love it and I was shocked.

Yeah. I can't believe I'm seeing this on screen and I love it and it's really well done. I was shocked. Yeah. Ten years ago I fell in love with an Irish girl. She broke my heart. You don't remember? I don't remember that song. I won't sing the rest.

It's a bit rude. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. Go watch Once, people. Yeah. Yeah, it's really- Okay, there's my-

His voice. There's the film that's not classic, that should be classic. Yeah, there's certain indie things that you're like, wow, that should have went more viral, as they say, than it did. I'm trying to think of one that is considered a classic that I don't think is a classic, and I can't think of it now. I haven't seen Gone with the Wind. I haven't either. I feel bad about that, everyone that I don't think is a classic and I can't think of it now. I haven't seen Gone with the Wind. I haven't either. I feel bad about that. I don't ever make me feel bad about it.

I haven't seen Star Wars. I kind of pride myself. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I know. Isn't that cool? That is cool. Sweet. Yeah. Like the original. Yeah, I never saw it. I saw ET though. I want to see that again. Yeah. Lately, nostalgia is a funny thing eh

yeah like lately I've just been like hankering for some 90s movie which one I don't any of them like Mel Gibson's like lethal weapon or any of that and I watched Terminator 2 with my brother recently I I remember when that film came out shouldn't be a classic maybe that? That's a great film because Guns N' Roses, You Could Be Mine is in there. And that was the first was at CGI when the guy was like made of metal. Yeah, the liquid metal. Yeah, that was really cool. I was probably that came out in 91, 92, 15 or 16.

That was a great film. I didn't like the first Terminator, but I liked the second one a lot. The first one, because I think you're right that art remains, right? That's what that's what we mean by classic, I suppose. But with movies, it can be a little different, especially if they use a lot of special effects, because the special effects will seem hokey in 10, 20 years. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know, Terminator 2 held up somewhat. I think Terminator 2 is classic.

I don't like Terminator 1. When I was in Rome, we did the Rocky series. I watched all... Was there four Rockies? And then there was a fifth one or something. Yeah. But this is how cool my wife is. I asked...

Cameron? Yeah. Cameron Fradd? Cameron Fradd. I asked her if she wanted to watch some chick flick or term, I forget the name of it, or Terminator 2. And she went, whatever. And what's cool about my wife is she means that.

A lot of men tell me that their wives aren't direct and they say something that might mean something else. That is not my wife. If she says something, she means that thing. You do too though. I mean, it's, I appreciate being forthright, sometimes a bit acerbic, but candid. I think it's helpful for people to know what I'm thinking and then I say it, then they don't have to guess. Because otherwise, then they're wondering, then they have to,

well, is he, did he, I mean, this, no, it's better to say it straight up and then you can respond to it. Sometimes that's offensive, but if you're not used to that in your family that in, in which you were raised, that could be difficult for people. But yeah, I like that very much too. It's like, just say what you think. And then if you're wrong, I'm, I was wrong. I, I shouldn't have said that. Or, you know, asking me about, you know, should you have seen poor things? That's a good question. I haven't thought about that. I need to think about that more, but I, that's super healthy.

And this is where we're not in the culture because we're so polarized. It's like, yeah, gotcha. Totally. Well, let's get here and talk something out. Then hopefully after having this conversation, I'm a different man because I appreciate things that I didn't think about before. You had perspectives that I didn't have. I've learned something.

Hopefully you've learned something. And that's what this stuff is supposed to be doing. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, this is something I keep thinking about, like, think of your most cherished relationship. So mine is with my wife, eh? And if she said something I disagree with, or if she hurt me, well, I

have to make it right. I, what am I going to do is leave her. I can't do that. So I've got to actually figure it out, no matter how hard it is. And then once you get past that road bump, then things are even better. Your relationship is even stronger. And then it's true with people who aren't as close, maybe a next door neighbor or maybe a colleague that you have to see every day.

So you just have to figure it out. But it seems like in Internet land where we all live remotely, you know, someone says something on their YouTube channel and then someone's pissed off about that. And so they do a response to that and they slam that person and call them a heretic or something. But they would never have done that if they were someone who goes to their parish. They would have just kind of figured it out. Like, there are a lot of different Catholics, a lot of popular Catholics in this town who have platforms. None of us attack each other, I don't think, because we all have to live together.

And it's like, well, shouldn't that be the way it is? And I thought I went to confession recently because I called out someone on a show recently and I thought that I shouldn't have done that. Yeah. And I didn't I didn't apologize for it publicly because I didn't want to draw more attention to it and actually meant what I said. Yeah. So the problem wasn't that I was wrong. I think the problem was like, it was imprudent. It didn't need to be said. Yeah. So the problem wasn't that I was wrong. I think the problem was like, don't. It was imprudent. It didn't need to be said. Yeah, it didn't need to be said there. Same.

I'm trying to get better at that. Well, the nice thing is, I mean, call people out. The sacraments exist for for sinners, right? And the reason we have the sacrament of confession is so that people can confess their sins, and it's there for everybody, priests, bishops, nuns, laypeople included. So when we fall, when we get weak, when we make mistakes, it's really important to own up to them and say, yeah, I shouldn't have said that. And I learned from that. And I'm sorry that I said that,

and I'll do my best not to have that happen again. And when people do that to me or when, when I do that, you find people like, Oh my gosh, thank you. That, that goes a long way. And there's not enough of that because it's gotcha. Like we, okay, we, you just did a two and a half hour, whatever interview. We'll take this 20 seconds. Where you say watching porn's not necessarily me. I said, yeah. And then they'll put a thing up there and look at Matt Fredson. Oh, great. So come on. But here's necessarily me. I said, yeah. And then they'll put a thing up there and look at Matt Fred said, Oh great. So come on. But here's the thing. I think to be able, like Jesus said that this would happen. You,

people would persecute you and take things out. He didn't say that take things out of context, but they certainly do. But to stay faithful, to keep moving forward, to realize, okay, I wouldn't do that again. I've learned from that, and I'm going to move forward. And the nature of sin is you can't undo things, but you can confess it, and then you can move forward. I love the notion that sins committed are an offense to God. Sins confessed are a canticle of praise. Amen. And when we when we confess our sins, we're praising God because we're trusting him. Like, here's a part of my heart.

I'm going to give you this and you then you can make it new. And I think that's wonderful. That's I keep saying this that even our sins can be a cause of delight to Christ when we repent of them. Yeah, because surely it's a delightful thing for the Savior to save. Yeah. That's like what he does. Yeah. That's his name. Yeah. His name. It of them. Yeah, because surely it's a delightful thing for the savior to save. Yeah, that's like what he does. Yeah, that's his name. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, I just thought of something.

OK, we didn't talk about yet. Could we talk about the eclipse? Yeah, I wasn't here. I was in Austria. All right. So it came through Cleveland in totality and totality means 100% coverage. Moon is in front of the sun for 3.3 minutes and 14 seconds. I've heard of the eclipse.

I knew people traveled to Tennessee to see it last time, maybe in 2017. So we heard it was coming up through Cleveland and you've been there. It's on a great lake. So we often have clouds and we didn't know even if it happened, if we'd be able to see it. But I got together with some friends

and sure enough, it was May 8th. And this year, you know what May 8th was? It was the feast of the annunciation because March 25th was Easter Monday. And then they pushed it out, um, to, to, to not me. What did I say? April 8th, April 8th. You said May 8th. Sorry.

It's April 8th. Okay. We're in May now. So it was supposed to be March 25th and it was April 8th. Okay. So the Feast of the Annunciation and the Feast and not the Feast, but the solar eclipse. So never witnessed one before, had some friends out and actually I have some good friends in Steubenville. The mom and her five kids came up to the Cleveland area to watch it. Husband stayed back because down here you had 98.5% coverage. Still an A, right? Okay, the difference was in Cleveland and in the path of totality,

it went dark for 3.4 minutes. The temperature dropped about 10 degrees, and it was the most remarkable natural phenomenon I ever experienced in my life. It got dark in the middle of the day, animals did weird things. My group, we sang a Hail Mary and then we just kind of took it in and it was beautiful and it felt like you got cleansed or something in a strange way. If you talk to people who were in totality, they'll tell you that.

My buddy who stayed down here never um, never got to take his glasses off. He said it got a little cooler, but not really. And it was not remarkable. It was kind of cool. Yeah. So my theological reflection on this is that totality matters because when the father gave the son, he didn't give 98.5% or 90%, he gave all of him, like kenosis,

complete, empty, and of self. When Jesus on the cross pours himself out, he doesn't just have a coma or have a concussion, he bleeds out. Everything he has, he pours out. In the Eucharist, it's totality. It's not, I'm giving you a percentage of my body, blood, soul, divinity, everything I have, totality givenality given and so if that's what love looks like Totality that means that in our reception of it. It's also totality. So Mary Completely receives what the Lord has and then completely gives herself back and what we fall in human beings do is often We give ourselves away in love but hold back back 2%. A dream, a thought, a desire, a sin. We're holding onto a little bit of something because to enter totally

in and completely surrender ourselves like naked before the Lord and here I am, everything I am is really difficult because it means complete vulnerability, but it's only in totality where the really cool stuff happens. Okay. Like the total eclipse. Nice. So if you've never seen one, and I had never seen one. I was in Georgia in 2017. Was it full?

It was close enough. No, it's not close enough. That's the whole point. That's the point. It's not close enough. What I've been saying, sorry. Yeah, it's not close enough. I don't know if it was full.

It wasn't full. If you're saying you don't know, it was not, my friend. I mean, I could still see the sun, but it was... That's it. No, you can't. I don't know. Yeah, anyway.'t know it was not. I mean, I can still see the sun, but it was. No, you can't. Yeah, anyway. Oh, it was not for all right. There you go. Good thing you got this. I know. 2017 went through Tennessee, Indy, Anna. Indiana, they see Jones and the last Indian.

Hey, are you going to the speaking of Indianapolis? going to um, you Chris to Congress. No, no Don't you think that if we really wanted to? Revitalize the faith in the Eucharist we just put altar rails in and have ad orientum. That would be so much more productive Do you think that would do it? Yes, I mean, I think it would be way better than whatever they're doing up in Indianapolis. What are they doing in Indianapolis? They're gathering people from all around the country for, well, different conferences, mass adoration, all sorts of things. All beautiful.

I'm not talking it down. I just think that it seems like he's just, okay, let's put an altar. I mean, let's just have people. Neil. And so that would seem like that would increase our faith. And it could. I mean, I'm the co-director of the Eucharistic revival and the Diocese of Cleveland. So, um, I don't, I mean, if it's that easy, then why, why haven't they decided to do it?

Because we don't want to backtrack because we're embarrassed that we've screwed up things after the second Vatican council and it feels regressive. But maybe we should be regressive. Well, I was thinking the other day, when I was in high school, I had a start of a conversion that continued on, um, intellectually and diving into the, the, the life of the church. And I remember reading Scott Hans Rome Suite Home. Classic. And I remember him saying when he saw, when he was at mass, even before he was Catholic, he saw Revelation being played out.

Yeah, I remember that. Was there a communion rail there? No, but it would have been better if he did. All right. It would have been a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. So I guess I would, I would, I want to, I understand, believe me, I understand like the distinction in the communion rail and all that, but I,

I try to avoid silver bullet problems to, so, okay, we need a revival. If we only put the communion rail in and if we only did this, then everyone would have devotion to the Eucharist. I think it's, I think it is a lot bigger than that. And so I think that's what the Congress is trying to do. By the way, there's a great scene in Wildcat where Flannery O'Connor gets challenged, and someone says that the Eucharist is just a symbol and the most portable symbol, and she

used to think of it as the Holy Ghost. Anyway, and then Flannery O'Connor says if it's just a symbol to help with it. They included that in the movie. They included it. It's, it's a beautiful scene. It almost looks like the last supper and she's sitting here kind of pensive. She goes, well, if it's just a symbol to hell with it. And then she says, what you don't understand is that it, it's, it, it's harder to believe than not to believe. And what most people think is that faith is a big electric blanket when, when really it's the cross.

Did you get to meet any of these actors or offer any input? No, but I did you write a review. I did write a review for Word on Fire. And my guess is like the way that things happen, if I'm supposed to meet somebody, I'll meet somebody. And I don't know. That's just I leave that up to Providence. They should do like instead of a comic con, they should be like a Flannery O'Connor. I'm part of the Flannery O'Connor Society and we have international gatherings

every few years and give academic papers. Those are fun because you have devout Catholics, you have devout atheists, you have agnostics, you've got all sorts of everybody. And we get along with Flannery and it's a lot of fun. But speaking of like understanding someone's world to be able to speak into that because I agree like I I'd noticed that there's a There's a there's blue-haired feminist women who are big into Flannery and they wouldn't listen to me, but that wasn't a you Yeah, yes, you know her It's right and it's yeah, it's fun. It's a lot of fun

If people could go to one place the where she was a baby or where she kind of grew up on the farm, Oh, do them both. Because look, this, this coming year, March 25th, that'll be her, her hundredth birthday if she was alive. So I'm sure the childhood home will have a celebration and I'm sure Andalusia will have a celebration. And I actually have it in my calendar to be in Georgia for March 25th. And I'm going up to Iowa because she was at the Iowa Writers, what do they call it? The Writers Workshop there for two years.

So I'm going up there early March to do a little presentation on O'Connor's Catholicism up there. So that'll be fun. I was going to ask you before we wrap up, what are some stories, like personal anecdotes from these people who knew her? I'm sure you've asked them to tell you before we wrap up, uh, what are some stories like personal anecdotes from these people who knew her? I'm sure you've asked them to tell you a story about her. What, what was she like?

Oh yes. And there's actually a book of oral history. And one of my favorite stories is one of her friends. I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to remember exactly who it was, but she was pushing O'Connor, um, because she wasn't buying into a lot of what the church had to say. And she wanted to see if O'Connor agreed with her and she said, what do you think about that?

And then Flannery just leaned back in a rocking chair and I said, I believe in one God, the father almighty creator of heaven and earth. And she just went through the Nicene Creed. That was her response to the question, just saying, I, this is what I believe. I'm a Catholic and this is where we go with it. So yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a ton of good stories about her that she liked to sweeten her coffee with Coke. Um, yeah, she bought Coke factories down in Atlanta.

So she liked to do that. She loved the peacocks. Um, I'm, I'm, I was more impressed and it really inspired me that she was so disciplined in her craft that every, she knew she was dying And she knew she had important work to do so every day she went to mass little breakfast And then she wrote from 9 to noon every day including Sundays because she was sick When I was writing my dissertation in Rome same schedule every day 9 to noon Yeah, I took off Sundays though, but and people would say well, that's only three hours a day You only work three hours a day.

I'm like, if you're a professional athlete, you play a football game or you play basketball, that's hard, like to focus and write for three hours a day. Sometimes that'd be four pages. Sometimes that'd be a big, long footnote or just restructuring sentences. But you stay to your discipline. Yeah. Things get done and you don't wait for inspiration to come. You say, this is what I've been asked to do

I am going to do this. I will be faithful to it. And when I stopped every day at noon because we had mass at 1230 Sometimes I wanted to keep writing but I'm I can't wait to get up tomorrow morning and continue this in the afternoon I pray my rosary think through things read but it was it was a Little bit of work for like very focused time. And we live in a world that is so distracted, like Simone Vey would say, we can't pay attention, but to really give your attention to something, reverences that thing and that thing,

it'll pay you back, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you're pretty good at doing that, like nine to noon. Yes, every day. I took my watch off, phone was off. And the the nice thing was in Rome, we're six hours ahead. So my friends at home were that's between midnight and six in the morning. So no one was calling me. And yeah, it was good. I took a five minute coffee break, but it worked. And Thomas Joseph White's like,

that's perfect. Three hours a day of writing is really good. I know Baron would say he would do four or five and some people I write all all day, right? I think if you're a writer, you have to figure out when you're most alert, give yourself a block of time and then stick to it. And even now, if I have a writing project, it's nine to noon, I'm blocking out my day, tell my executive assistant, I'm not gonna be in, I'm gonna do this and it works.

And it may take you 45 minutes or an hour to get that first sentence done, but that was a very important hour. And then these next two hours you're cooking. But if you sit, oh, I don't got anything. I'm going to go check my email. I'm going to go look at a cat video.

I'm like, don't do it. Don't do it. And O'Connor was big on staying focused. That's your time. Give your all to that time and it'll reward you. I love that. That's really great. Yeah. Thanks for asking.

That's a good question. What did I ask? You asked like what else, what are other stories about her? Yeah. And that people wanted to visit her in the morning. She said no. She wouldn't do appointments in the morning. Even her letter writing to friends was in the afternoon.

Her correspondence because her job, her vocation was a writer and she was giving her all every morning. What was her personality like? was she funny? Was she prickly? Was she? Yeah, she was an introvert Very bright clever witty She said yeah, she a lot of great one-liners. Do you I really got to know her by reading her letters? It's a book called habit of being yeah 700 pages long ridiculously funny, sharp, also very, she had a great friend who had some tough struggles and she was extremely kind and extremely loving.

And this woman was a lesbian. She got discharged from the air force because she was caught somehow. And it took her a while to come out to Flannery and Flannery is like, look, don't worry about that past. Like the Lord's done great things for you. Your name is Betty Hester. I've read about it in the book, but, um, I think she's a model for like how we Catholics do this sort of ministry.

That's for another whole podcast, but yeah, just wonderful and, and funny and faithful and a big hero for me. Like, yeah, I love her. I love her. She's my friend. And I when I before I wrote the dissertation, I went down to Milledgeville. I was at her grave and I asked her like I need I I've offered masses for but it's a weird thing when someone's been dead that long and you know, she was pretty good faithful Catholic Purgatory Heaven like I offered the mass in case you're in Purgatory, but if you're in heaven, then

you can be praying for me. So help me out here, Flannery. I read some advice she gave to fiction authors or I don't know where I read it, but she said, have enough respect for your characters for them not to become a mouthpiece for your ideas. I love that. Cause you all feel that don't you? When you read it and you're like, okay, the main character is preaching to me. I hate this so much. Yeah. Yeah.

Respect the character. Yeah. I think she's putting the human race on display in particular characters in whom we can recognize ourselves. And because she's showing us reality and that's what good art always does. It shows you what is real and you're not blinking or you're not like what she hated was kitsch. Right? Like everything's too colorful or just get a good Catholic can write you a nice story. No, you get an artist who knows what she's doing or he's doing and a good writer

will be able to write you good stories. And if the writer is Catholic because Catholics have a broader vision, because our faith, our faith broadens our reason. That's it's going to be. It's going to be great fiction. Yeah, that's what I know. It's what you find in her. She's they say there are many good Catholic fiction writers. The only great one American one so far has been Flannery O'Connor. Who said that? It's been said. It's been said. It's been said.

Cormac McCarthy absolutely will be up there. Yeah. You got to read him. He's very nihilistic, but. Yeah. Well, he just died, didn't he? No, I don't think so. Yeah, I think he just died.

And that's why everyone was reading his stuff recently. Oh, I just got off a binge of Graham Greene. I read reread the Power and the Glory and the End of the Affair. He's really good. He wasn't a great Catholic, but man, he was a good Catholic writer. Really good guy in terms of his writing. Yeah. As you wrap up the name of your book and where people can find it. Understanding the Hillbilly Thomist, subtitled the Philosophical Foundations of Flannery O'Connor's Narrative Art. It's published by Word on Fire. You can get it on Word on Fire. You

could order it on Amazon. Also, in speaking of art, I helped create the cover. If you go to the angelic comes website where I wrote my dissertation, the logo of the website is Thomas Aquinas with a halo with a quill in his hand. Cause he was the doctor of the church writing. And then it says like, I think it's in Latin Pontifical university, St. Thomas Aquinas around the cover of my book is that same logo, except not in blue and red. It's Flannery O'Connor. No Nimbus, no halo because she's not a saint.

She's writing but her feather is a peacock feather and it says understanding the the hillbilly Thomas. So it's cool. And I I wrote it to help people because people will say how do I understand her fiction? If you're trying to understand it, I think my book will help you. Awesome. Yeah. Well, thanks for writing it. And also the her short stories are online. Like you just look them up. As I think. Yeah. But you shouldn't.

But now, of course, a real book. You want that? That is wrong with you. Yeah. No, 100 percent. I just want I just want to give people the easiest in to her that I can find. And the fellow at our cigar lounge Matt McCloskey just bought a book and he read it would be as hard to find nice she was good and he was like blown away look at that that's a very beautiful front cover thank you who did who put the sorry word on fire did it and it's like a woodcut

so yeah I would also say because people ask what what do I read read good man's hard to find I would also recommend reading Parker's back It's excellent story about tattoos guy with bunch tattoos Oh, I would read the river and I would read Revelation and I would read good country people all five of those like will rock Your world and do a book study with your parish get together and read these stories and and unpack them What was the second one you said about the tattoos? I haven't read that called Parker's back. I can't wait yeah, this guy's got tattoos all over his body except on his back and he has to decide to get one because He's got this great longing. So you'll see what happens there. It actually shows up in Wildcat. It's very well done in Wildcat

So father Damien Ference, thank you so much. Thank you. Matt Fred. It's been a joy and a pleasure