Pints With Aquinas - Family Life, Attachment Styles, and Finding Security in God w/ Dr. Matthew Breuninger

Episode Date: August 10, 2022

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Dr. Bruin, you're lovely to have you on the show. Happy to be back man. Thank you I like to start with the dr. Bruin just start formal so they know okay. This is someone worth listening to he has a purge Hood a bird a foot PhD. I'm sorry. How are you good? Good. I'm I'm less I took the jacket off So it feels less formal. Well, I would have said I would put one on. Yeah. No, this was It's a bit warm. Last time I was on the I was reading through some of the comments

and a gentleman commented that I was wearing too many shirts. But how many you said he said he said I'm counting at least four shirts. Well, I've been overlaid in bed laughing so hard. So my goal is every time I come on your show to take off one article. Yeah. So I took the blazer off this time. Next time I'm taking off the button down. Yeah. Soon I'll just be. I appreciate comments like that. I love it. Some of them had me.

Some of them had me laughing really hard. I took a photo of me with Bishop Scott McCaig and I had Birkenstocks on. Apparently that was a problem for people on YouTube. So there was like a hundred and fifty awful, awful comments like, is Matt transitioning? That's inappropriate. People are people are fun. There are some funny people in the world. Yeah, but I really appreciate the funny insults.

Like someone said, no, it's like it's it's unknown whether wearing Birkenstocks leads to making a sauerkraut or the other way around, but it's definitely, that's funny. I do want to get out of the way too, Matt. I trying to get down here this morning or shaving. And I just want to, this line, I pride myself on being able to shave pretty well. And so this isn't like a nice tight line here.

That's beautiful. Yeah. This one, I was shaving fast and I left quick and I didn't do the final check. And so there's a bump here. Bit of a bump. I should say though, I mean, I figure if they're checking out how many shirts I wear,

somebody's gonna see the bump. Now we'll see whether it was worth mentioning it, or if you, we'll never know. We'll never know. If you had have left it. I poisoned the well a little bit. All the audio listeners just updated their image of you and their hair.

Exactly, that's all they're gonna focus on. And you can't just not shave, right? Like when I grew out my beard, I would only grow it from here down, but I think you're like a mountain man. Mine comes up around my eyeballs. It's like I have to shave. It's amazing. Do you shave up there?

Yeah. I start high. I start high in that. And so does it get all prickly up? Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. I have this neighbor across the street who's a, he's a barber. He's like six foot four, two 50, two 60s, big black guy covered in tattoos foot four, 250, 260, he's a big black guy, covered in tattoos. And last year, last August, coming up on a year here, one morning he was outside, my father-in-law comes in

and goes, Matt, something's going on outside. And I was like, oh no. So I go outside, there's my neighbor, and he's got this like five foot nothing white girlfriend. And he's standing there with a rake and she's standing across from him with a shovel and they're like they're loud. Really? And I was like, oh, no, I got to stop this. Like, I got to do something.

So I'm holding a cup of coffee. I have no shoes on. But like, so I'm just thinking, OK, look, I got to jump in the middle of it. of it I'm gonna get throttled but it's like the right thing to do so I hop over the fence I'm like hey what's going on y'all what's the problem and he's like there's a bat in the house oh and that's why I start walking up toward him and I was like here give me that and he goes what you gonna do man he's like you got no shoes on got a cup of coffee in your hand. He's like you're gonna do nothing. I Just took their rate. So I grew up in this like my grandmother's house was this old Victorian home They had bats all the time, right? So I I just grabbed the rake out of his hand. I've set my coffee on this step

I walk in the door. It's flying in circles. Boom hit it flip it out. He was like, oh my gosh He was like dude. He's like oh my gosh he was like dude he's like I owe you he's like look I'm a barber come over tonight I'm gonna take care of you I'm gonna hook you up so I go over his house he has a barber shop in his house oh and I go over he does a hot he shaves my head does a hot towel face shave he faded my beard not only top to bottom but back to front dude. It was The tightest line I have ever had and he taught me something He said you never so I used to shave my the bottom here right along the jawline

Yeah, and he said you always leave a finger length under the jaw it And like how it looks from a distance and illusion you want to leave a little so anyway, that's what I do now So when I shave I really try to be tight about that. I mean this guy taught me Taught me pride in my my beard and hair game. So you're gonna avoid him tonight. So can I be honest? I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna I'm gonna fix this because if I see A barber shop in his house. Yeah, it's amazing. He's great. He's great. Would a black man feel comfortable cutting my hair?

Matt, he would. Your wife would not know what to do with you when you got home. This fluffy hair. It would. He would. He'd fade the sides up. He'd give you a high, like a high and tight, man. You'd look so.

Well, I got a high and tight in Florida recently. That's what Bob Lesniewski told me to do. He's like, just ask for an aggressive Florida recently. That's what Bob Lesniewski told me to do He's like just ask for an aggressive fade So that's what I did and the first thing he did is he did a zero all around here and I was terrified But it actually looks great. Yeah, it's a barber that knows what he and then when you get the hot towel shave It's a it's an X level. It feels so good. Yeah, it feels so good. So apologies That's all I wanted to say. I love it. We had a bat in our house recently. You know that a bit avala I didn't know that so big. I don't know why it bit avala

Sorry, we could I answer because I heard the story and I was like man, that's so tragic Oh my gosh, I can't believe she would but then I heard the backstory and I'm wondering Well, he's Apple's backstory I'm wondering if it would be okay. Do you think we just get the truth out there? So it started flying around in the house and the first time I ever saw a bat I was terrified because the only place I'd ever seen bats was in Dracula Yeah, and I moved to North America and there was this bat flying around the house I'd never I mean, obviously we have huge bats in Australia, but I didn't see any

So yeah, so this time I was like, okay, there's nothing to be afraid of So I think I told the kids I let's capture it and then they got a sheet Maybe I did Avala said what did she say to you? I think she would have said to you that I said I'd give her money if she caught it 100% Was I'll give you $100 if you touch it if you touch Filter down through town. Like through Steubenville. That's the story. I don't think I would have said that.

I could see myself, cause I don't remember. It was all such a, an event. I could imagine myself saying, I'll give you a hundred bucks if you capture it just out of enthusiasm. But I don't think I would have said,

if you touch it. I don't want my daughter to have to touch it. Anyway, we got a sheet, we covered it, and then she was letting it out and it bit her. So she had to have like three or four rabies shots. Rabies, if you want it, I don't want my daughter to have to touch it. Yeah. Anyway, we got a sheet, we covered it, and then she was letting it out and it bit her. So she had to have like three or four rabies shots. Rabies. If you want to not sleep at night, if you if you legitimately want to not sleep at night,

look up rabies. Really? Look up the symptoms and progression of rabies. It's horrifying. And by the time you show your first symptom, you're dead. If you become symptomatic. Neil, you got to look it up for us, can you? If you become, if you show symptoms, it's too late. And you're dead. If you become symptomatic, you're going to look it up for us. And if you become so, if you show symptoms, it's too late and you will die.

Rabies is okay. Well, I'm glad then we took her to get her four shots. Real quick. Did she get the money? No. Okay. Interesting. Okay. I'm here for you, Avila. There's record now. Yeah. So anyway, so the other night I'm lying in bed with my bride and we're

watching 24. I loved, which is when movies peaked, the television peaked at 24. We've even watched it. We started watching this when we got married and we were, what if it just went back and watched the first season? Okay. I want to hear the rest of this, but then I want to come back to this and talk about if that happened in a 24 hour period, you would have so much PTSD. It would be unbelievable. Okay. Yeah. All right. We can do that. So anyways, I'm watching 24. So I'm already like just hyped. And my son, Liam burst through the room.

Dad, there's a bat. And I just went into full Jack Bauer mode. And here's what happened. I have the tiger started playing in the background. I walked out and went shot Avila's door It's its friend bitter and he knew about it He was coming back for her shut the doors and it was it was like flying around me And I said Liam go get me something to hit it with Absolute man, and he took a while But here's what I did it flew towards me and I high-fived it in the face and it hit the wall and died you did it with your hand yeah it's possible

I will have rabies and Neil will read what happens to me soon but it I felt so freaking manly and then Liam came down with a giant machete what the hell am I gonna do like that into a box and dumping it. The good news is they tend to fly in circles, so there's a somewhat predictable pattern, but I love it. So here's what I do. Always keep, always keep, we have these old homes,

always keep a tennis or racquetball racket handy. That thing starts making its rounds. That's a great idea. Tennis racket would have been way better than a machete. Your hand, can I be honest? It's a baller move to hit it with your hand. I might have rabies. Yeah. I mean, this could be a goodbye, but, but can I tell you, okay.

It'd be weird if this launched in August after I've died. And you've already died. But you died a winner. Thank you. You hit a bat with your hand out of the air. After having said shut Avila's door. I was playing racquetball with a student in March. You told us this don't say this I think when you said you didn't want him to win. Okay. Yeah that one I was basically like my sort of getting chest pains in the middle of the match and I was like I'm not gonna lose to some 20 year old kid. So I won and then I ended up in the ER My wife is like what what why why Matt why and I was like because if I died So I won and then I ended up in the ER.

My wife is like, what? What? Why? Why Matt? Why? And I was like, because if I died, I wanted you to know you married a winner. Your husband was a champion. I could either die and lose or die and win. So I feel like no matter what happens here, Matt, you've hit a bat out of the air with your hand. Yeah. That means you're an absolute baller. So what's the deal with rabies? Well, the it's basically everything you know about rabies.

You get... I know nothing about rabies. Okay, well then on the streets, you're just suddenly about foaming in the mouth. Followed by one or more of the following symptoms. Nausea, vomiting, violent movements, uncontrollable excitement. This one gets me fear of water.

That's what? An inability to move parts of the body, confusion, and loss of consciousness. fear of water That's what an ability to move parts of the body confusion and loss of consciousness Yeah, fear of water, but I've never heard that Progress to death that's the thing is it's here it says Let's see. It's usually one to three months and I can but I can start Let's see. It's usually one to three months and I can but I can start in a as short as four days or because I literally just thought I'm like in this water. Yeah, no problem. It's like a bathtub water, drinking water, rainwater, puddles like bodies of water.

Yeah. Oh, like a lake. How weird that's strange. That one's strange to me. So 24 PTSD. Oh, OK. So if you met I mean I Remember watching an episode of 24 where he like flies down to Mexico in the morning Like tortures his girlfriend because he thinks that she's like maybe a spy or something. So he tortures her Then like America finds out that it's like not her

So he'd like lets her go she forgives him same day within the same 12 hour period she forgives him they fly back he then like you know kills three guys and then like the president's the White House explodes or something if you if you tortured your girl your girlfriend in the morning like that's gonna mess most people up for months right and not the rest of. Like that's going to mess most people up for months. Right. And by the afternoon, he's like already killing guys like they've

already made up. They've kissed. It's like, so sorry, you know, I had to do that. She's like, yeah, it's OK. How could you? It's like it's the tw- that 24 hour, that one hour clock.

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Each episode's an hour, right? So it's like you did that in an hour You're in Mexico 15 minutes you torture your girlfriend and your back come on I don't know why there haven't been more parodies about 24 Like suppose Jack begins with a nice Thai food meal But then gets violent diarrhea from and the world needs him, but he's on the can. That's six hours of the show. Six hours. Just him on the can. He's like

That's it. It's the dramatic music playing Or maybe he's sick one day and just spends the day in bed. It's just 24 hours. Does Bauer get the flu? Yeah, does he have a urinate? Just a 24-hour bug. The amount of things that happen if you were to Matt it would be actually really funny look someone on YouTube will do this this could be a good call somebody actually did this you know like people watch these and they like every minute that we talk about something they write down what we've talked about yeah I want someone to do

that with 24 right down at every minute of time. Timestamp 24. And the list will be, it'll be so much fun. Mail it to Matt and next time I'm on we're gonna read it. That is quite the job to give to somebody but people on the internet are weird. There's bound to be someone who's gonna do it. Somebody's watching it anyway so let's make it worth our while. Ah it's such a good show. Yeah, it's great. I think what they do is, and this is probably the key to just good writing, is there's tension in every relationship that you're introduced to. There's some serious thing that's happening in every person's life and you want all of it to resolve.

And so you're just. And that's how they, at the end of each episode, there's always, I mean, the way they leave the tension Yeah, and you're just desperate for resolution. Yeah Desperate do you do you find that your wife and I you wife and I sorry you I don't you absolutely I do not Do you find that you guys ever are like? Watching too much TV or you like, you know, why don't we put this away for always ever been no No, I think-

Me neither, I was just asking. I'll say that, let me say this. I love unwinding at night with a show. I love it. And so for a long time, the way Britt and I would just unwind is we get the kids in bed, get a bowl of ice cream, like talk for a bit, get a bowl of ice cream and just watch an episode of a show.

Sometimes it's a comedy like the office or, you know, and then, but I think we go through sort of phases. It ebbs and flows and sort of pretty naturally, I think like we, most recently we watched season six of Peaky blinders, which is pretty intense, but we watched it and we just don't have a show now. And so we haven't been watching anything. Last night, my wife's like, okay, I took a bit of heartburn. I can't go to bed right now. Can we watch a show? I'm like, I can't watch 24. That will hype me up. So we watched something else instead.

Yeah. We tend to watch an episode, but so we started Stranger Things. The new one. Yeah. What's that like? It's still, it's intense. It new one? Yeah. What's that like? It's just, it's intense. It feels like it shifted genres. Like it's just, it feels like horror, horror. I mean there was sort of a... That first one was like strange supernatural suspense.

Yes. This feels like horror. I mean like spiders coming out of people's faces and like bones breaking. So we actually watched one or two of them. And then like we stopped. We haven't watched them for a while. And we like started part of one and we got interrupted. We're just not captivated.

Yeah. I wonder if it's like I've never read Harry Potter, but I was told that they got kind of increasingly dark and intense, or at least the movies did. And maybe that was in order to follow that audience as they aged. Could be. I wonder if something like. It could be have you seen it the new season yeah, I think I agree that it's just to me the the Paranormal stuff just seems really gratuitous to as well as being way more like graphic and like creepy for no reason

But it's also getting like I'm more than halfway through and it's just boring Is it like there's no like the cat that are really interesting and there's too many separate plots going on that you're not really interested in. Interesting, that's interesting that you didn't find it interesting. The first season was terrific. I remember watching that and just being like. It was so nostalgic, so much nostalgia for the 80s.

Do you know that there, I gotta take your son and my son to this place in Pittsburgh, there's a pinball machine place. They call it a pinball museum. So there's, there's pinball machines and arcade machines. There's about over four or 500 machines in there. Like the old Mortal Kombat, Shinobi, all that stuff. Asher would love that. Oh good. We should do it. He's paid 25 bucks and they give you two hours. You pay, play all of it. Asher loves vintage things. He laments his big fears that like Tesla and electric cars are going to

take over because he want he like so loves vintage old muscle cars and old diesel engines and what a cool kid. It's funny how kids just attracted to different things without you putting anything into them to do

that at all. Like my son, Peter, can stand and look at a beehive for 20 minutes and then he'll go and pick blueberries and he's just always outside. And I wish I could say I tried to inculcate that in him. It's like, no, it's him. That's Asher. Asher's like he loves all in. And even the even T-shirts and stuff like he wears, he just he says, Dad,

I like the old stuff. I like stuff that looks older. Why isn't it interesting? Because it's not nostalgia. So I wonder what it is. Just just a vintage personality You guys are doing bees bees Yep, we just Extracted 22 pounds of honey. Wow. It's so cool. You know, it's funny when they say on honey labels Unfiltered that's that's not true.

I don't know how that could possibly be true. It's so much wax in there. It's the wax. It's also like bee stingers. Yeah. Like unless you want to... Delicious. You have to filter.

She wants some bee stingers. This honey really makes my tongue feel numb. It's really great. It's giving me a fear of water. We're doing a...we have bees as well. Oh, good. Our bees absconded over the winter. They left. And I guess this happens occasionally.

And anyway, so I, the Hans have some beehives down the street and I think maybe our bees absconded to their hive. Bloody Scott. So I'm gonna march on Scott's yard and take my bee. Knock on their door. Yeah. Maybe you have something of mine, good sir.

I'll just show up in the back and try to collect them without them noticing. Once I was at Baylor, Ken Starr was the president of Baylor when I was there. He wrote the Starr Report when Clinton was president, all about. Okay, so, um, and the president has a house on campus at Baylor. Like there's a big, beautiful sort of mansion where the president lives. And I was playing frisbee on campus and my frisbee went over into his backyard. So I had to knock on the door and his wife answers. And I said,

I'm so sorry, man, my frisbee is in your backyard. And she was a Ken, right? So Ken comes and he's like, oh come on back. Yeah. Yeah, great He's like I will get it. He said sorry. We just had a party for Condoleezza rice here. We were hosting her We're just wrapping up. So please forgive the mess. He's like, would you like some sopa Pia? Would you like us? And I was like, no, what is that? It's like a It's like a Mexican It's like a Mexican Puffed pastry pocket and then there's honey in it. Oh, so here's Ken star going Drizzle some honey on it. I was like, no, no, seriously. Come here. Just try just drizzle some honey on it So do it and I was like, thank you Ken

I'll just grab my frisbee. So like I said, so I walked out of the house with a frisbee and a honeyed Soapapia the honey made me think of that. Your time Ken star served me honey. You know, you just said ashes into engines and things like that. Do you think that, like I, I find myself pushing against my kids when they bring up university, as opposed to encouraging them. Like, why would you do that? Yeah. Like I'm open to it. No, that's why I would. Why, why would you do it for me?

You know, it has been a big It's been a big growth Area for me to begin to consider Letting go of the idea that everyone has to go to college You mentioned now last year last time just the way I was brought up. Yeah It just felt really important. Education felt really, really important. Um, and now I have a son who loves, I mean, has a, has a genuinely sort of mechanical mind.

Um, that's how you fixed my lawnmower. Did you fix your lawnmower? I couldn't do it. Yeah. The problem is, okay. Have you checked the carburetor? You're like, yeah, he bought this mini bike recently. That's so close and he I Mean it worked. It can't it worked. It was brand new and he immediately goes out to the garage and takes it apart and starts like

like revamping the throttle and fixing the clutch and opening up the carburetor. So it was faster and trying to locate the governor so that he can, you know, take off the speed limit on it. And his mind is just, and so I really thought recently, like maybe he should go to vocational, like Jefferson County has a VOTEC and we're thinking about when he turned 16, letting him go to VOTEC and learn like small engine repair or mechanics or Because the truth is I think for him to go to college I would just kill something in him I mean it would just be a grind and I think it wouldn't be good for For him right away anyway

I get the sense that for him to be able to like work with his hands and fix engines and maybe go back down the road if he wants. But what's changed here right? Because my parents are always harping on getting a good education and fair enough you know there's obviously virtue to that but I don't think it's just me and I don't think it's I don't think it's just coming from a place of well I'm Catholic and that's not the most important thing. I think there are a lot of people of all different walks of life who are wondering why they would send their kids to college.

I think part of it is, I mean there's a couple factors, right? The sort of convergent streams. One of them is certainly the price tag of college. I mean college has become so expensive. To go to college, you're talking about taking out tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? That's insane.

To hold that kind of debt seems ridiculous to most people now. I can see why. Will Barron And you can also probably make as much money by becoming a successful YouTuber or a successful whatever you are online. Jason Kuznicki Right. I mean think about what college used to be. College used to be the place where you had to go because the people that had the knowledge were there. So there was a time when books and information was limited to certain places. And so people would get that information and they would hold it,

and you had to go to where they were to learn that information. With the advent of the internet, all of the information that every one of my college professors has, I now have access to. So the question is what do I go to them for? Like if I have access to all the same information, part of what I'm going there for is maybe the presentation of that, how it's presented to me. I could read it in a

book myself, teach it to myself, or look at it on Khan Academy. I mean you could learn math on Khan Academy. You can learn philosophy on like there's all of these places you can go now to get that information. Part of what you're paying for is the production value of it. Colleges give you a certain production value and they give you a place to potentially mature emotionally. And so I think that's what it also kind of forces

perhaps to receive it in a disciplined manner. Like I, of course, I could learn everything in the world, but I'm not going to cause I'm a lazy. I just want to watch 24. They structure it for you. They structure it. So the presentation is, is, you know, hundreds of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Is that what I want to pay to have a structured to go to Franciscan? It is. That's right. Because Dave, I love my job.

But no, I mean, I just think, um, so that's part of it, right? I think the other thing that's changed too is colleges now, I mean, there's concerns about ideology and what's being taught and whether you're being taught to think freely, like, like a liberal arts education where you're you're being taught how to think well or whether or not you're being sort of indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking. And so you have the debt concern, you've got the concern about are you being taught how to think or what to think.

And so those two things, and then you have access to all the information anyway. Those three things seem to me to say like, well, maybe we don't need to go to college and maybe we don't need to. I think as a parent, the only option I would give my kids if they wanted me to help with it would be a good Catholic school, like Wyoming Catholic or Thomas Aquinas or Franciscan. And I'd be,

I'd be happy that they'd be in a community presumably of like-minded people who are trying to be holy as well as educated. But yeah, I think that's what I mean, a lot of times what we offer now isn't access to information that they don't have. It's Franciscan. We're providing them a culture. We're providing them a community in which they can try to grow in multiple dimensions of their humanity. So spiritually, emotionally, we're trying to create a place where they can deepen their Catholic identity, but it's not just about the information anymore. I mean, that, yeah.

You know, it's going to be interesting to see how Catholic schools fare over the next 10 years or so because this sort of leftist or whatever you want to call it, illusion, ideology, seems to permeate everything. And unless you take a super hard stand against it, it's funny, that super hard stance can be seen as like, why are you being so like reactionary? It's like, well, if I don't, this all goes away. Yeah. But I would imagine there's going to be schools

that we would consider good Catholic schools right now that will begin to give into some of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of it's sort of a, some of it's a slow trickle. Some of it's, you try to engage it in a way that maybe you say, look, we're going to engage it. We're going to open up our doors.

We're going to try to try to dialogue with this. And, and there's something to that. There's something about, I do think sometimes Catholics get very, um, it's as if we're afraid that the truth we hold can't stand or it's, it's, it's, we're afraid that sort of the truth doesn't have the weight that we think it like I'm we should be confident in the truths we hold and so in that way we don't have to be reactionary because I know what we've got I know I know the history and all the patrimony I know that but at the same time I think there needs to be some sort of yeah a thoughtful sort of, um, yeah,

a thoughtful sort of preparation or, you know, like some of the, the, um, gender ideology stuff, I think universities have to begin to think about how can you, uh, make sure that you're in a position not to be sort of sued or brought to task over, um, the Catholic teaching on sex and gender. Um, and so there has to be a preparation, but I don't think we should feel afraid. I don't think we should feel afraid. I think we should have a conf confidence that one, the gates of hell will not prevail. It's the promise that we have,

we still need to be thoughtful. That's not an excuse to just be sort of blase about things, but, but two, that we have a deep trust and confidence in, in, in the truths we hold. And so I don't have to, um. So there's like a middle ground between, I think so. There's a middle ground between just calling all of our ideological opponents, idiots and not engaging with them. And then just allowing them to run rough shot. The problem is though, I mean, there are certain things that are so absurd that it's better to cast them out as demons than to engage them. And I do think too, I mean, you also have, I think there's a distinction here between sort of the activism arm of these

movements and then the folks who are caught up in it. And so you have students who are struggling in wrestling with some difficult issues. It's one thing to engage them. They're not activists, right? They're not just trying to push some agenda or ideology. They're really sort of struggling in wrestling or maybe misguided, but you can engage them. That's different than trying to engage somebody who's just an activist and wants to ram something down your throat, wants to be provocative, wants to, um, you know, elicit some sort of, uh, negative response from you. They're baiting you there.

So I think we have to be mindful to who are we engaging? Are we engaging the activists or are we engaging the real seekers? I think we should always engage the seekers, engage those who are struggling, engage those who are lost, engage those who are open, but something like the, the activists, that's just a recipe for, for disaster, I think. So I think those folks, you have to safeguard against that kind of stuff. Are you seeing this a lot in your teaching of psychology? And no, not, I don't mean that personally. I just mean the topics, are they beginning to be addressed?

These are big topics. I mean the, the, um, particularly the gender stuff and you know, gender dysphoria, transgenderism, transgenderism. These are big, these are big topics and it's making its way in psychology. Certainly. So the beauty is I sort of don't, I'm not a member of any of the big psych organizations like APA or so. One of the best talks I've ever heard on gender dysphoria

and transgenderism was by a guy named Dr. Andrew Sodergren. He's out at rural woods in Cincinnati. They have a psychology arm. So they do like K through 12 TOB curriculum and training for educators. But then they have a whole arm of psychologists just to help people heal. So sort of the whole person, he gave a talk at the Catholic psychotherapy association on transgenderism. just to help people heal. So sort of the whole person, he gave a talk at the Catholic psychotherapy association on transgenderism. That was, it was beautiful. I mean, he really thread threaded the needle, which is like, look, gender dysphoria is a thing. We see it,

but the puberty blockers and the cross sex hormones double mastectomies. Yeah. These aren't the solution. You can engage in psychosocial treatments. There are treatments out there. Um, and oftentimes they can be effective. And he gave this really thoughtful approach to not only the treatment of it, but then how do we handle people who are struggling? Um, this is why we really have to face these social issues with the 2000 years of

tradition and the wisdom of the scriptures, as opposed to relying on a particular political party. Yes, I agree. Because, I mean, if you look at the series of, let's just keep it at sexual sins for now, it's like, okay, the left accepts divorce, contraception, all these things. But so does the right. It's like the right keeps getting pushed back. So you even have Donald Trump

in being open to transgenderism things. And I think it's insanity. I heard... But then just real quick, then the thing is like, so if I'm identifying myself as the political riot Yes then the only battle to fight now is Transgenderism because it seems like there's a good majority of those on the political right who are pushing back against it and even not that

Maybe they're only against the indoctrination of children, which is true, but that's the only thing I'm fighting Whereas I'm now okay with so-called gay marriage and I'm now okay with pornography and contraception, no fault, I'm okay with all those things. So it's then I'm like I'm rabid about this one thing my political side is debating, so I'm not taking a holistic view of all the issues and I'm not doing it with a charity Christ is calling me to engage it with. Matt, I think who, Damon Owen said a while back and I thought this was one of the truer things I've ever heard. He said, our political friends should be confounded by us. That our approach to this should be because we should have a Catholic position, which does

transcend either political party. And look, certain issues conservatives are better on, certain issues Democrats are better on. And so I think it's, and people don't like to say, I mean, look, I don't trust anybody. When I'm talking to somebody politically, I utterly have no trust for them if they can't point out at least one negative thing that the person who they support has done.

If they're like, like if you can, if Barack Obama is the worst human being you've ever met, you're conservative, if you can't point out one troubling thing that Donald Trump has done, like I just think you're an ideologue. You are. Right? And so, so if you can't point out one good thing that Barack Obama's done, and maybe it's not huge, but one good thing. So if you can't find one good thing in your opponent and one negative thing in the person you support. We do this. We do this with Pope Francis. I mean, even I feel like reluctant to talk about the things he says that are good.

Yes. But that's usually because the things he says are good. I like, well, of course, he should be saying that. Yeah. But that's usually because the things that he says are good are like, well, of course he should be saying that. But what is that weird tension in me that I feel a little nervous about praising him for saying that? It's almost like we become so cynical of a particular individual that any good they do is only like, if I bring light to that,

then I'm gonna bring light to everything he's saying and there's no room for nuance. I think there's a deep fear there that either people outside will misinterpret me as a, they'll think that I support everything he says then. Or yeah, it's somehow, everything he says stands in the shadow of the praise I've given him. So that means that I must be praising

all the things he's done. And I don't think that's the case. I think we have to politically, we have to be able to acknowledge. Well, to your point, we should be Catholic. And I think that means that there are times when I point out something that a Democrat or a Democratic candidate or a Democratic, you know, party has done that. I say, that's good. I think it's good. It's compassionate. It's true. It's.

And then there's times when we should be able to critique what conservatives are doing and praise. What can like we should confound our political friends, our, our, our friends who are merely political should say, so wait, what are you? And you say, well, like I'm Catholic, which means I, I see, I have 2000 years of tradition, philosophy, theology, social doctrine behind me that shapes how I see this. Not just-

I would imagine most Catholics who consider themselves sort of politically up on what's going on are probably more educated on social doctrine by Ben Shapiro than they are the history of the church and what the Pope's have had to say, including myself. Right. And so, yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. And I think that's we do ourselves a disservice and we do the conversation as a service. When the house is on fire, it just feels like there's really actually is no room for nuance.

I know. That's just what it feels like doesn't it? Like things are on fire people are saying cut your breasts off. Nancy Pelosi is saying being a drag queen is what America's all about He like okay. This is freaking not crazy. It's right. It's it is nice So it's like is there any room when the country's collapsing? I also though, you know, this is I don't follow Jordan Peterson. Um, I don't have any sort of personal beef against the guy, but I don't really follow. Anyway, I just don't have a ton of time to do this sort of thing. So, but I think one thing I've heard that people say he says is something like,

look, like before you're out protesting and to like make your bed, like go back to your room is your bedroom like clean is your bed made. If it's not, you don't belong out in the streets protesting. And I feel sometimes that way about people get so caught up in a sphere of influence that they don't like an area where they have no sphere of influence. So like there's very little I can do about Nancy Pelosi and what she thinks right now. Um, and there's very little I can do about Nancy Pelosi and what she thinks right now. And there's very little I can do from right like posting against my, you know, liberal friends on Facebook is not changing the course of America. As far as I can tell, it actually only sort of

plays right into the very thing that's contributing to the downfall of America. And so that's contributing to the downfall of America. And so, yeah, I think if we focused really on our sphere of influence, like if, I can do things in Steubenville. Me shouting things on Facebook about what's happening in DC. Now, I can vote, voting's important, but how many people spend hours on Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, going on and on and on why do we do that?

Yeah, cuz it feels like we're doing something. Is that what it is? I think you're right. I think it feels like cuz I think every human being would agree with what you just said in America They would all be like, yeah, you're exactly right. Would they I don't know picture town. I Maybe we'll find out put it in the comments. Some people will be probably unhappy But then we can't get away from the fact that these huge like propaganda Waves have changed the way people think I think if you'd ask most Americans on the street right now Can a man be a woman they probably say well he can I mean people can be what they want to be

Yeah, so then we can't get away from the fact that there's been a tremendous amount of influence online that has changed things So maybe yeah, so very few people have the kind of look this is why I think a lot of people turn to the Ben Shapiro's and the Matt Walsh's and they're folks that have big names and they have the big audience to kind of push back against. Yeah, you with your 500 Facebook followers? Yeah, it's like you don't right? And so like let those people who have that sphere of influence do their work. You do your work and your work is probably humbler than that. And your work, you probably don't need to be trolling the calm boxes of Matt Walsh or Ben Shapiro, like making sure you take down every liberal who... I'd be really curious. I'd be

curious like what your followers say, what what anyone says how many people have actually changed their opinion About any topic based on something somebody has said to them on Facebook I mean, it's a curious thing if I had a professor Yeah, his mantra was no one's ever changed their opinion online. I mean period it seems so I think it's yeah, that's not true I'm not sure but it's getting it's something that's Think it is. Yeah, I mean the people who do so I'm part of you probably are too It's like the Thomism discussion group or something. I'm not part of okay, so there's this Thomism discussion group on Facebook Very elite group. You have to know someone to get in Matt, you know on Facebook

Yeah, I don't even know someone runs it. I don't know. That's so funny, and I'm joking. It's, Matt. You're on Facebook. I don't even know the password. You're not on Facebook? I am, but someone runs it, I don't know. Okay, that's so funny. And I'm joking, it's just like you asked to be invited. But here's a group of people that don't agree on everything, but the discussion is dialectic. They're really aimed at like sifting through points and trying to get a truth. And I've seen people on there say things like, well, I've really changed my mind on this,

or I've changed my position on this. I used to think this, but now I think that's the kind of place or environment where I think people sincerely are pursuing the truth of a thing. But when you post on, you know, uncle Ray or aunt Tina's Facebook, like, well, let me tell you about Joe Biden or here's the thing about, they're not like, oh, okay. Right. Yeah. You're not in a place to be receptive on those platforms. Those are the places where... That's not about they're not like, oh, okay, right? Yeah, you're not in a place to be receptive. Yeah, those platforms.

Those are the places where they're for clicks and quick stimulation. Yeah. And those are the places where I think getting to know Uncle Ray and Aunt Tina and having coffee and calling them like if you if you only see him every Thanksgiving, like what's the likelihood that you have an inroad to really help him change his mind about something? Hmm Anyway all that to say I think You're right about this big problem, you know It's a huge problem right and left too. I mean, I think there's stuff on the right that we don't often acknowledge

it's sort of this alternative political propaganda machine that Can be problematic. But it's why Catholics should be like, we should have a place where we can think stuff through thoughtfully and critically and take what is, take what's true, plunder Egypt's gold, like take what's true from each, hold it, retain it,

affirm it, but distance ourselves from what's not. And I think the fear is, I've had this fear when I'm talking to conservative friends, if I say something about immigration, I think like we need to have more compassion to immigration policies or we need to figure something out for what's happening at the border because, you know, my real conservative friends will say something like, well, the thing at the border is not even a crisis. That's just what they want you to believe. Okay. You think you mean your liberal friends would say that, right?

I don't think any conservative would say there's no crisis on the board. Yeah. So they say like they're hyping it up. So when they show pictures of like kids in cages, they'll say like, well, no, that's not really how they want you to think. But my fear is that your conservative friends will say, Oh, you're just, Oh, you're really a liberal. Oh, you're really a, and I think like there's ways of thinking about immigration from a thoughtful

Catholic perspective. I think there's ways of thinking about, um, like money and taxes and retirement and how we treat the elderly and healthcare. And I think there are ways there's these are areas for like good thoughtful discussion, but they just get bludgeoned with like political talking points. That's right. When I was in Australia as a teenager, we had these things called detention centers. And when people would illegally come to Australia, they were put in these facilities. And these were out in the outback, so in the desert, and they were barbed wire. And it was a terrible thing. It seems problematic for even how we treat people who are breaking the law. It's very problematic. But I remember when a priest said to me, and this never left me, he said, because you just have to look up the images. I mean, they're kind of scary.

I mean, again, as soon as you say something like that, it's like, well, the only other answer is just like, let them all in legally. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying maybe there's some other option. Exactly. He said to me, like, if they were Englishmen, like if they were just men, farmers from England who showed up, would we be okay with them in cages? Like, shit, I realized. Exactly. No way. No way.

I know. Because they're Muslim or brown or they don't look like us. Yeah, and look, we have to, we have to, you know, we do have sort of affinity for likeness, and we do, there's something interesting here, I think what part of what Christ does is, and part of why Christ is so challenging, is he sort of breaks the Jews out of just focusing on Jews and not of their tribe. And he opens things up to the Gentiles and slave and free and woman and man.

And, you know, he breaks us out of these sort of affinities we have for likeness. Yeah. Which is in a way not it's in a way unnatural. Like in a way, it's completely natural that you should be for your community and that your community has particular markers that identify them as such. Yeah. Yeah. And Catholics do it with scapulas. Oh, you want to mine or real cat? Like get your demand for a bracelet. You know, if you don't have that, it's like, yeah. So yeah, I think, um, I just think we can have a higher level of political discourse if we knew our

Catholic faith and our Catholic social doctrine better. But again, what we have is we have people who, and very few of us have time to do that. And that's the other thing I was going to say. So Ben Shapiro is boiling stuff down. It's like, it's intuitively closer to what I probably would believe then the alternative. Yeah, that's it. Exodus 90. You've heard of them, haven't you, Neil? I have. Well, the guys behind Exodus 90 have started Exodus 21. They've caught they're calling it a 21 day restart.

So for 21 days, you, along with the friends you invite, pray and read through the first two chapters of Corinthians while practicing disciplines such as 20 minutes of prayer every day, abstaining from unnecessary screen time, abstaining from meat on Fridays and fasting until 4pm on each weekday. You can take this short opportunity to introduce your brothers, cousins, co-workers, fellow parishioners and even your neighbours on how to live like Christ and prepare them for Exodus 90 in January. So check it out. Go to exodus90.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com super doable. You would have done great at this. I would have crushed it, although probably because 21 days was the goal, I would have like faded out around the 11th day. I don't know. Exodus90.com slash Matt, go check them out to get started. People who've done it just says it really rejuvenates their prayer

life and helps them. Exodus90.com slash Matt, link is in the description click it and And check them out. Oh starts January. You know you can start whenever Oh, so Exodus 90 is going to be starting in January so this 21 day can be like a little test But honestly for me, I just do the 21 days So you can do it whenever you want go check it out right now Exodus 90.com slash Matt's a great way to grow in friendship too with people in your community check them out I also want to say thank you to hello way to grow in friendship too with people in your community check them out. Also I want to say thank you to Halo. Sorry. Halo is a really great prayer and meditation app. It is just phenomenal. Whenever I talk about Halo I'm always impressed that a Catholic group has been able to create one of the

greatest apps in the history and catalogue of current apps. It has sleep stories, it allows you to pray the Rosary, it even has Mark Wahlberg praying the rosary so you can pray with Mark Wahlberg which is pretty cool. I just got back from a trip to Africa and I'm really bad at sleeping on airplanes so I listened to sleep stories and people read the Bible to you and stuff like that. It's really really good. Hello.com. Matt.

Fradd. And also when you sign up on the website, you get three months for free. So if you just download the app and sign up that way, you got to start paying monthly, but you can try it for three months. That's a long time. And you can see if you like it. And if you don't, you can cancel

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rang that bell button because right now we have a hundred thousand trophy over here. We're over quarter of a million, which sounds more than two hundred fifty thousand, which is why I phrase it that way. And once we get a million subscribers, they will give us another plaque at which point I will quit the YouTube channel, sell my house and go live in the forest somewhere. And newspapers, think on paper newspaper. Yeah. And just read all of the newspapers that I put together.

Thanks so much. It's also a lack of epistemic humility, too, isn't it? It's like, it's no longer a capability. Like, I just don't know if I have an opinion yet. I don't know enough. You must. You must post about it on Facebook or Instagram. You have to have an opinion about things.

And if you don't, by the way, that actually signals that you might be... A sympathizer. Yeah. And I just think there are so many things one of my good friends at the university is does epistemology he's a philosopher and I've really learned from him and some others who I respect up in the philosophy department up there that it's okay to say you know that's a good that's a good point I don't know much about I actually don't know I'm not

sure like it's and that can actually be the right response a lot of times. I mean, that's the response that we would kill for our teenage sons to give because we would be like, oh, wow, humility. This is so much strength here. Like my son is infallible, just like I was when I was his age. I knew everything about everything. And if you said, are you like that? I'd be like, no, no.

So I even knew that I. Yeah, I was certain. I knew everything. Right. But and but what? But in actuality, if my son was to say, I don't know enough about it, I'd be like, oh, my gosh, you're growing up. And yet we look at ourselves and we think, well, I can't say that. I know. We have to have opinions about everything. We're afraid not to. Yeah.

I think. I think fear motivates so much of our lives, man. Fear. Fear of not getting what we want, Yeah, I think fear motivates so much of our lives, Matt. Fear. Fear of not getting what we want, fear of not getting what we think we need. And that includes the opinions and praise and affirmation of others and people in our community. And I think we get motivated by fear so often. I was talking with Father John Burns last week

and he said that the reason we fear, he's trying to understand it, right? Like, he agrees with you and he says that maybe it's this fear of being alone. Like, ultimately, that's the ultimate fear. Fundamental fear. Because I said, well, yeah, I guess, like, I fear that maybe I'm not lovable, you know?

Like I said that, and he's like, okay, but what's the consequence of that? I'm like, yeah, that I'll be alone. I'll be alone. Yeah. There's something about that. If we're, if we're social creatures, I do think I've been trying to work it out. It might be too extreme. I think I haven't thought about it enough, so I don't know, but I sort of want to, I want to, I want to posit that I think the two fundamental motives are like fear

and love. And so oftentimes, even when you take sort of the capital vices, I think you can boil them down to some sort of fear. I'm afraid I'm not going to get the sexual pleasure I desire. I'm afraid I'm not going to get the esteem I deserve pride, right? I'm afraid I'm not going to get the esteem from others. I desire. I'm afraid I'm not going to have theem from others I desire. I'm afraid I'm not gonna have the power over others I want. I'm afraid I'm not gonna, it seems to me that you could maybe boil all of it down

to some fear. And so we're either motivated by fear or love. And fear always turns us in upon ourself, always. To some extent, when I'm afraid, the focal point is always me. And so the problem with that is I set now I have to control and manipulate the world to get these fears, to alleviate the fear, right? To alleviate the fear, I have to control and manipulate the world.

And that leaves me constantly feeling anxious, constantly feeling everyone constantly feel and how easily you hurt or harm me when you touch one of those fears, right? Where I can be motivated by love, which is Christ centered and then others centered. Here's something I read this morning. Have no doubt that it is in the degree to which you change yourself that everything around you will change. A new world will not be remade except if you become yourself this new man of whom St. Paul speaks created according to God in justice and

holiness and truth. If you adjust, you radiate justice. If you're merciful, you radiate mercy, et cetera, et cetera. That is so I have this book coming out. It actually seems like, um, it's funny when you're reading that when I, when I already read, anytime I read father Jacques Philippe, I'm like, did I just steal my whole book is the whole, like like but there's nothing new under the Sun, right? But I have a chapter in there that basically says the problem is you Just real quick as we begin to talk about your book

I want to let people know that we've got a link in the description below. Yeah, this just came out. Congratulations Yeah, it's gorgeous to beautiful. I feel so excited. That's a huge this your first book Yeah, so just superficially before we go deep. Yes. That's a big deal, isn't it? Especially with your first book. If you want it to look beautiful because a publisher can ruin your book. Yeah. It feels like a big deal.

I was never supposed to write a book. And the way it unfolded, it came out of a talk I was asked to give. It just, the ideas started germinating. And the Mayas Road was, you know, I sent them a chapter and they said, yeah, go, go for it. And, um, Jokefully feel of, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, I was never supposed to write a book. And so for me to, when, when they sent me the cover, I almost wanted to dump.

I felt so like proud. I felt so happy And a huge part of it and I don't mean this in a trite way. God has done So much in my life man to bring me To a place where I could have a book But for me the whole purpose of the book Is to continue what? was such a healing point for me, which was love and serve others. And that, that's how I got better was radically shifting away from being

self-focused to trying to be of maximum service to God and others. And so the book is that the book is, is if it's helpful for you, keep it, use it. If it's helpful for you keep it use it If it's not burn it use it as a window jam to keep cool air coming in It's solely intended to be helpful. That's it like to serve Like sweeping away the obstacles and barriers from you hearing and following the call of God in your life And if it does that like that's the purpose and so what God has done, man, to get to that point, the book isn't about me. And it was written in a spirit of being for others and about others and

trying to free others. And I think as long as I stay in that place, God continues to do amazing things. It's when I subtly start to turn toward myself that the fear creeps back, the anxiety, the loneliness, the depression, the car, because I got to control it all to make sure life goes the way I need it to go. You are absolutely speaking to me right now. I did this all weekend. I don't know why. There was nothing obvious that happened. I just found myself irritated and irritable. My kids are going through this phase where they make things, you know, they make, I mean, I mean food, you know, so they'll make cookies or they'll make smoothies, granulated sugar everywhere. Doesn't matter how many times I say, happy, you can use the stuff in the kitchen. I just need you to clean it up. So what happens is all weekend I'm like, pick it.

I just, and I knock over a cup of juice. Oh my gosh, half frigging. So this is me all weekend tight. What is that? Yeah. So that's what I, so I think part of what I posit in the book is that a whole bunch of our life life's problems are of our own making. So like I'm the problem.

So what happens is I set up expectations. I go into situations with expectations, with fear, with greed, with self-seeking, with, and when I go into a situation with those defects of character at play, I set you up to make my life miserable, right? Because now all you have to do is knock over, like leave some sugar on the counter and you've just blasted my expectation of what a good clean house should look like.

Or you've just touched, I come in, here's what I want. I work hard, I wanna rest and relax. I've got my motives, right? Self-seeking, here's what I want. I'm gonna come home, I'm gonna just curl up on the couch, watch some YouTube, relax, I've worked hard all week. I just wanna scroll my phone. And now all of a sudden, the kitchen's dirty.

And you're jeopardizing my piece. What we do when we go into situations with these defects at play is we give control of our peace to others into the world. So now I'm a total puppet. I'm a total puppet. Like if I need your praise and affirmation to be happy, I'm a puppet to you. If I come in here with fear, if I come in here with self-seeking, if I come in here, no, only do I have to manipulate and control people and situations, but now I have to,

um, I have to try to find a way to make sure that you do what I need you to do so that I can stay peaceful and happy and get what I want, get what I think I need. That's one exhausting. So in the book, I call these self-preservation. Everybody else in my life, the poor bastards. Right. I mean, and then by the way, I harm people, right? I harm all these relationships. And then I have this expectation that people should still be kind, loving and respectful to me. So then tomorrow when I wake up and the kids are kind of stand offish with me, I think freaking, how dare they? How dare? I've spent the whole weekend

yelling at them, being fussing, right? Yeah And then I still expect they treat me like yeah, it's not a problem of my own making Isn't this a mat problem and not a kid like the kids are being who the kids are It doesn't mean I can't it doesn't mean I can't try to obviously I do this with my guys I'd like you to clean up the kitchen guys. I like it But one how I do this with my kids. Guys, I'd like you to clean up the kitchen. Guys, I'd like you to. But one, how I do it. And two, sometimes checking my motives and my expectations. Are they reasonable?

I've got a 10-month-old, a three-year-old, a six-year-old. And I want a house that looks like it comes out of Joanna Gaines' Magnolia Market. I'm setting my kids up to make me angry. So when my three-year-old does what a three-year-old does, mm-mm. Well, isn't the problem that I have, I go in with this expectation

that she should be able to perfectly toddle around and never actually touch or destroy her man. No, that's crazy. It's a setup crazy it's a setup it's a setup I set myself up to be here so I do this whole thing in the book where I think we have primary wounds and secondary wounds I think primary wounds are where we failed to be loved the way we were created to be loved but I think secondary wounds are when we set ourselves up to be hurt by others and I

think a lot of our anxiety our fear our irritability our unhappiness is actually because we set ourselves up to be hurt by others. I go into situations with these defects of character full full bore and then when somebody touches that I go I can't believe you hurt me like that. I go into the classroom and I you know, I want everyone to like me everyone I need everyone to like me, right self-centered self-seeking. I need all my students to like me When I read an evaluation at the end of the semester, this guy's boring. He rambles too much. He talks too much. He The I mean just the rage the oh my how could they do they even know let me tell

you about them right then the self justification comes out and then do you know how much more peaceful my life would be if I didn't go into that situation needing the affirmation and from everybody so I have to shut for me it's about like shifting my mindset to not what do I need to get out of this situation, but how can I be of maximum service to God and others? And that means that maybe in a classroom of 40, God's calling me to really speak to five or six, and to be deeply content and happy with that.

And then the rest, maybe they don't like me, maybe they don't like my song, I and happy with that and then the rest what you know, maybe they don't like me Maybe they don't like myself. I'm okay with that because my focus isn't on I need to be liked It's not a self-seeking motive. It's a God-centered motive So anyway, I there's something that point speaking of rambling that point If I'm the problem then then there's a solution. If the world's the problem, I'm going to be miserable, unhappy, and anxious for the rest of my life.

I just am. Because that means Neil's got power, you have power, me and my wife. How can I possibly get everything I need out of a world that's big and fast and mixed motives? I can't, I'm going to be really unhappy, anxious and irritable. So when you notice yourself slipping into that fear, way of acting orientation, how do you realize it and what do you do? Yeah. So for me, it's like any time I have, um, like big feelings.

So anger, like deep frustration, fear, like sadness, just like a profound sense of sadness or disconnectedness. My habit now is to look and say, okay, where am I being self-seeking, self-serving? Where am I bringing fear into a situation? serving? Where am I bringing fear into a situation? And I've gotten,

I think a habit of being able to recognize, and this is what I lay out in the book. I try to, I try to like break these terms and definitions down and give you a system for recognizing when you're being motivated by some of these character defects. Um, and then what to do with it. when you're being motivated by some of these character defects, and then what to do with it. So what I try to do is I try to say, okay, God, this thing, this fear or this desire for more food than I actually need or this desire to be liked and esteemed,

it's getting in the way of me serving you. Because when I'm motivated by self-seeking, I can't do what God wants me to do because I'm too worried about trying to get what I need to get. And so I asked God to remove it. In that moment, I said, God, remove it. Take it away from me. I said, I can be of service to you. Now direct my thoughts and my intentions to what you would have me do in this moment. So I pause and I try to say, okay. So the granulated sugar, I walk in the kitchen, and I say, God, okay. I feel angry. What is it?

Now, not all... Now, by the way, it's not... Not all feelings of anger, irritability, sadness, or fear... Are unjustified. What we want to do is we want to be able to identify the ones that are and are appropriate and the ones that aren't are unjustified. Are unjustified. What we wanna do is we wanna be able to identify the ones that are and are appropriate and the ones that aren't and are getting in our way of being of service to God.

And so, say, okay, God, what is this? What's at play here? Why do I feel so angry by sugar? Some granulated sugar. And oftentimes I can uncover myself something like, well, I work hard, so I expect that the other people while I'm working hard or working hard to make sure that my house is nice when I what? I tell myself all these stories They say okay. Well

You want me to love and serve you Lord to be a maximum service to you and others remove my fear remove my Remove my irritability. That's preventing me even if I'm gonna teach these kids even if they need to learn to clean up. I want to do it in aability that's preventing me, even if I'm gonna teach these kids, even if they need to learn to clean up, I wanna do it in a way that's godly, that's Christian. Making them fearful and intimidated of me isn't the way that God wants me to love and serve them. So even when I need to correct them, I say, God, remove my irritability remove my anger remove my so that I can

Even correct them the way you want me to correct them Probably figure how what is the image of how I should be correcting them and then oftentimes it's like hey guys I got to be honest I'm feeling a little frustrated because I've asked you a couple times and I feel like you're not paying attention to what I'm saying and that as opposed to like, aren't the hell. Yeah. Are you an idiot? Like, how can you not? How many times do I, there's that approach,

which like hurts harms and further wounds. And then there's like the, I think the way that actually loves and serves and honors them. And, um, so I'm not advocating for like, we don't correct our kids or we should never be angry, but even in our anger, So I'm not advocating for like we don't correct our kids or we should never be angry But even in our anger We should be angry in a way that doesn't Unjustly hurt or harm other people I'm gonna have you buy this book by the time I'm done Yeah, listen to this the spiteful person, which is what we become with the granulated sugar, I mean,

the spiteful person starts putting facts together which in reality are totally unrelated in order to make his neighbor's offense seem greater, to put his neighbor in an inexcusable position in order to excuse himself. And then he says, but there are so many excuses to be found for the faults of others. Like why don't I excuse my sin and then I magnify what I've done well. I said to my wife, I did that for you today. You're welcome. Even just like you're welcome. When we say that slip up is like her small, all my kids, it's like, there's no excuse for that. And then what I do is I excuse

their virtue. I say things like, well, the only reason he's saying that is because he wants something. Dude, the stories we tell I mean what's actually funny about that is I feel like I say a lot of similar things. He says it so beautifully It's like this poetry. Yeah, I say it like a simple man like Yeah, I'm a simple man, but That's said so beautifully. Yeah, but I think the stories we tell, we have to become mindful of whether or not the story I'm telling about myself and others is accurate. Because I can weave

together this narrative and I can put together facts that don't go together and I can attribute motives and I can work myself up into who I think you are and why I think you do what you do really quickly and that can justify a whole bunch of behavior Mm-hmm from me toward you That's all it's all hogwash it's all This is my problem But do you ever have a time where you recognize you're living from fear you say Lord take it away And how can I serve others and serve God? And it's just not that easy. Yeah. What do you do when it feels like the only option is retreat? Yeah.

I gotta go. I just, if I don't go, I don't know how to handle this. So I think, I think that's better than harm. Yeah. I think that's better than harm. Yeah. I think ultimately we, we, we should want to be of help and of service. And if we can't help, at least don't do harm, at least mitigate harm, mitigate wronging others unjustly. But I think we also over time, like God takes, I think a developmental perspective on us. Like he's, he's helping us grow and mature spiritually and emotionally. And we start off like babies and we start off like

him. So sometimes my 10 month old is like too overwhelmed by the environment and we have to step back a little bit and let him rest and recharge and relax. And then we come back in and next time he can go a little bit longer, a little bit. And then he has a little slip and we pull back and we go back in, right? So I think God does something very similar with the spiritual life and with, I found two things happen. One is that oftentimes God will give me the grace

that I need to be of service and to sort of remove the things that prevent me from serving him. Like when I say that, God, I want to be of service and to sort of remove the things that prevent me from serving him. Like when I say, God, I wanna be of service to you. That's what I want. So I desire above all things. And that becomes my sole focus on the day. And so this isn't just like a, the problem with I think the book I wrote is,

it's like a way of living. It's not just like a try these things and then you'll be fine and you can do what you wanna do now. This is a, it's about a radical conversion to almost having a myopic focus each moment of God What do you want me to do? What do you want me to say? How do you want me to be? That's all I care about like you God and God alone you so

Oftentimes when you take that perspective, I think God gives you the grace To do the thing that you're asking very often like what father would ask you to do something and I think God gives you the grace to do the thing that you're asking very often. Like what father would ask you to do something and not give you what you need to do it? Hey Asher, will you mow the lawn for me buddy? Sure dad. Where's the lawnmower?

Oh, I don't have one. And there's no gas. And then like what kind of father would do that? Like if you're like, I want to serve you dad. I want to be of service to you. I want to love. And I want to be of service to others in you. I want to be charitable.

Good luck, figure it out. out like no, I think he but do I oftentimes do I still make mistakes and slip up and yes and so one of the steps I have in there is Making amends. I think it's really important that every time we mess up We amend it. And I think that amends shouldn't just be like, I'm sorry. An amend should be a change in behavior or an action toward the person that is consistent with the harm you've caused.

Sort of like when a priest gives you a penance, it ought to be- Yes. So if I'm yelling at my kids, I don't just say, I'm sorry for yelling guys. I try, my amends is to use like a loving tone of voice, a compassionate tone of voice, even when I'm correcting them next time.

That's part of my amends to them is to change how I approach them. It's consistent with the harm I've done. And I think there's going to be times when I act out of fear. Okay. I go back and I say guys I'm really sorry or guys, you know

I Ruined our ice cream trip because I was just so obsessed with money or I was so obsessed with financial insecurity or so And so I try to then make an amends. It's commensurate with the harm. I've done Let's take it. Let's go out for a little treat tonight that's commensurate with the harm I've done. Let's take it. Let's go out for a little treat tonight and I'm not going to dog you guys about how much ice cream you're eating because I'm so afraid that I don't get paid enough and I'm going to like, so my fear can come out in all sorts of ways. I don't always catch it,

but at night if I'm doing an examination of conscience, I note it and I make a point of making amends for it. I think that's an important part of growing in the spiritual life. It's a providential that I read this chapter today. I really didn't mean to keep picking this up, but it's so important. He says a notion, which is not widespread and which nevertheless is very important is that Jesus, when we ask Him with confidence, repairs not only the evil we have done in ourselves, but also the evil we have done

around us. Indeed, He has made things right in me, but what about the evil I have done to others, the bad example I have set, the scandal I have given, the good I would have been able to do and did not do, the injustice I committed? He says, this is a prayer, I would invite everybody able to do and did not do, the injustice I committed. He says, use this as a prayer. I would invite everybody right now to say this prayer. Because I think often, you know, when you start the work of healing, you're very focused on what people have done to you and your woundedness and how to interpret that. And that's all important and

not just important, necessary. But then you go, oh God, but I don't know, have you guys also done terribly crappy things to other people? What do I do with that? Listen to this prayer. Jesus from this evil also, which I have brought around me draw forth good. Even I dare to ask you Jesus draw a greater good than from it. Then if I had not done the evil, I ask this humbly in all my smallness beating my my breast and saying, may I cope with a contrite heart, recognizing my fault. I ask it of you with an immense confidence, recognizing your mercy and the limitless price you prayed paid for our redemption. That's you know, by this old, by beautiful. So I believe in love is what we're reading from everybody. Unbelievable.

I think I have so many thoughts. That is beautiful. And I think it's true. I think of have so many thoughts That is beautiful and I think it's true I think of a couple things the first is When we participate so you made a point that sometimes when we begin to think about healing we focus on ourselves. Yes, true I think what often times happens is when we get hurt or wounded by others I've been calling them self-preservation strategies, but being hurt and wounded. It's painful I've been calling them self-preservation strategies, but being hurt and wounded, it's painful. We don't like it. And so we adopt ways of being and acting and thinking that are self-preservatory. Like I don't want to feel the pain of not being smart enough, not being handsome enough,

not being cool enough, not being. So I put forward all these ways of being and doing and acting and thinking that prevent me from having to have that wound touched. I think that self preservation is what sets us up oftentimes to then be hurt by others even further and to hurt others even further because I'm willing to hurt you at the service of protecting myself. I'm willing to be the guy who's mocking and teasing you and saying hurtful things and gossiping about you because it prevents my own wounds from being touched So I got to do this just to preserve myself

Not feeling lovable, I mean I think how many people Turn to things like pornography use turn to to hooking up turn to cuz they just are trying to not have that wound of I'm not lovable, like not be touched. And if I can get you to like me, if I can get you to hook up with me, if I can get you to, if I can look at these images and imagine in my head that I'm desirable and enough,

and we hurt and harm others in an attempt to preserve ourself. So I think we have to be concerned with as part of our healing. I think we've only done half of the healing. If we look at the harms people have done to us, we have to, we have to look at that and ultimately forgive. And then I think a huge part of our healing is looking at the ways we've engaged in self preservation and how we hurt and harmed others.

And we need to make amends for those. And so I love that prayer. I had the opportunity years ago without getting into detail. I had you know harmed somebody and Years after I sort of harmed them I owed them in amends and and I'd forgotten about I didn't even remember and I Said a prayer. I was working at this coffee shop and I was just feeling like I wanted to continue to grow spiritually. And I said, God, like, please help me find somebody to make an amends to help me to find somebody who I've hurt or harmed. And this person walked in the door of the coffee shop. I hadn't seen them in years and my stomach turned. It was crazy.

It was the same night I said the prayer and I pulled this person aside and I said, look, I did this thing and I was selfish and I was self-seeking and I was, and I know I hurt you. And I want you to know that if there's anything I can do to make right that wrong, I'm willing to do it. And this person burst into tears. And that moment for me was really powerful because I realized that God had given me the great grace of being able to participate in the healing of that person despite the fact that I was the one who had wounded them. It felt like He gave me the tremendous gift of participating in their healing

when He didn't need to give that to me. But I find that that's oftentimes true. When we go back and make amends, we get to participate in the healing of the people we've hurt or harmed. Not always, but often. But how often does God use our wounds? Saint Paul. Saint Paul has this thorn in the flesh,

and he asks God to remove it, and God doesn't remove it. And I think sometimes God leaves our wounds, but he redeems them. And what I mean is he sort of buys them back to himself and he says, okay, I'm gonna use these in my service now. So, so often many of us structure our lives in ways to not have our thorns touched. I'm afraid I'm not lovable.

I'm afraid I'm not likable. I'm afraid of being thought stupid or and so I have to navigate my world so that people and places don't touch my thorns. And there's no freedom in that. I think what God oftentimes does is he leaves the thorn, but he draws us into places and spaces where he uses our wound to bring healing to others. He uses our wound as part of his healing and salvific mission. I mean, I think about you, Matt. I don't know a ton of your story, but I certainly know that some of the stuff around pornography,

I mean, think about- That's the first thing I thought of. I was looking at porn when I was eight. Yeah, look at this. And there's a wound. Glory to Jesus Christ that he would use that to his glory. Right. It's like he buys it for himself. When we give ourselves to him totally, he says, okay, I'm going to take...

Even if you still struggle with lust or with... He'll take that wound and he'll say, okay, yeah, but I'm going to use that so that when you meet that guy who's down and out or that teenager emails you or that dad who's been married for 35 years, emails you and says, look, I'm struggling. You can say, I get it. Heck yeah. I get it. And here, here's what I'm going to show you has has been helpful to me that he, he uses our wounds in his service if we allow him. But that means that we can't hold onto them

and we can't be engaged in self-preservation. Because if I'm engaged in self-preservation, I'm not giving them to the Lord to use how he sees fit. And so, man, this idea that God can actually take our hurts and harms, the things we've done to others, he can take our wounds and he can use them to bring about even greater healing. If I allow him, if I'm willing to participate in that.

Because I think most Christians would say, yeah, our Lord is powerful enough that he can bring healing to the wounds I've inflicted through my own selfishness. And I think if we would ask, well, do you think he can do that to others? We'd be like, well, yeah, but we don't often live like that And we don't the fact is that on a natural level there are certain relationships that I don't know if I could make up For the bad I've done. Yeah, I don't know what I would do. I mean I could start loving you now I could ask what I could do But that'll never undo no, I've done it won't and I don't think it's about that

Necessarily, I think it's about that necessarily. I think it's about the willingness to begin to amend. And so look, I do think on one hand, I would say, should we pray that Christ heal in others the harms we've done to them. Absolutely we should. The prayer is beautiful. On the other hand, do I think it's sometimes a cop out a little bit to just say, okay, you take care of that, Jesus. I think it's something like sometimes God- It's gotta be both hands.

Yeah, I think it's both hands. I think Christ is saying- Because I wanna make up for how I failed you, but I can also realize that even in my attempt to make up how I'm failing you, I might be failing. So I have to abandon all to Jesus. That's it. And I think what we do, we're responsible for the effort and we let Christ be responsible for the outcome. Yeah. And so, and it can be, I mean, I think it's as simple as saying, I

acknowledge my wrong, here's what I did, I know that this was wrong, what can I do to begin to make it right for you? And then you give it to the person and they can say, well, you know, it would be really meaningful. Like, and it should be. So I am already in my head. I'm thinking about saying this to all of my kids because I was I was outside trying to have a break yesterday. My wife was beautiful. She was helping. She got the kids going to clean the house. I came in and they were all sitting around and they all pointed out to me that they had just been running around cleaning the house. And they did that because they love me and they want me to be happy

but I was just irritated about what wasn't done and It's like I didn't even acknowledge So today I'm gonna go and I'm gonna thank them for doing that. I'm gonna say sorry that I screwed that up I'm so grateful for you. Look you can go out of your way to today in a special way to Point out the thing the little things they've done without, like, hey, Peter, great drawing. Man, I can tell you worked really hard on the drawing. Great job. But suppose, so I'm gonna do that tonight.

I'm gonna sit down with them and say, hey, I screwed up yesterday, I'm sorry for it. Please forgive me. What can I do? And I know what they'll probably say is like, you could just, no, they'll probably just say, if you could maybe not get stressed out next time. And like, oh, I'll give that a shot.

But how does that go? I mean, look. Yeah and like, Oh, I'll give that a shot. But that's how does that go? Yeah, I've no, I, I'll try. Yeah. I mean, I'll try. I'll try. And if I fail, I'll say, I'm sorry. And every time I'll come back and say, sorry. And that's beautiful.

By the way, this is where I also have like, amends is an action word. It's not just the, and so I don't just say, I'm sorry. Yeah. I don't just say, I'm sorry. What I do is I try to find where I consistently fail if there's a pattern of failing in a particular way One I think our habitual sins tend to be rooted in we end up confessing our habitual sins very often like I'm so irritable I Think almost all irritability is rooted in some underlying defective character, fear, greed,

self-seeking. So, if there's a pattern of irritability or one, I try to uncover what is actually the thing in me that's causing. There's some thorn that they're touching, right? There's some button that they're pressing and it's my button. It's not them, it's my button. It's not them. It's it's in me. And so I try to find and uncover that. But then I try to like, what is the contrary or counteraction?

And so to just say, I'm sorry, I'm always irritable guys. No, I need to then if irritability is my problem, focus on it, like intentionally focus on it and say, OK, God, I wake up and I'm irrit up and I'm irritable and I'm irritable because I feel like I work so hard and nobody else sees, nobody appreciates how hard I work or nobody gives me the, whatever it might be. My guess is there's going to be a lot of me, me, me, me, I in it. Say, God, remove the me, me, me, me, I, how can I be of service to these kids and to my wife?

Sometimes, by the way, leisure taking time for me is service to them. Cause I come back better, I come back. So it doesn't mean that you're like running yourself ragged. But if I'm struggling with impatience, I wanna find what's the counteraction to this and I wanna be aiming at it deliberately. So guys, hey, I'm gonna go in the house today

and between four o'clock and eight o'clock when they go to bed, I'm gonna find like one nice thing to say to each kid intentionally to, because I need to be transformed and changed and my amends is gonna be not just sorry I'm a wretch, forgive me, it's gonna be I'm amending my behavior. You know, what does it word amend mean? Can you google? I think it doesn't it's not just like I think it means that like actually

Well, I think of two chains. I think of yeah. Yeah, you're like piece you're you're doing something. It's not just uh, Uh to make better improve improve modify formally as a legal document, right? And then put right is an old use of it. I wonder what the etymology is though. Yeah, I'm looking at that. Amandere, Latin. From Anglo-French, amandere, modification of Latin amandere,

from ex, so like out of, and then menda fault, so to come out of a fault. It's related to mendix, lying, mendicus, which means beggar, and mendicare. Mendicare, yeah. I think, yeah. I could, my kids will eventually learn that my words mean nothing.

If I just scream at them and say, sorry, all the time. And that's supposed to be, no, it's a, it's about amending my behavior. And so they need to see I'm aiming at that. And so I can go out of my way to find like deliberately find things to praise that they've done. So small. It doesn't have to be big here. Mm-hmm Peter Thank you for closing the door when you came in Like little things I find that too that when I'm intentionally praising them for something I'm then aware of how often I criticize them because when I say hey Peter come here. What's he thinking?

Does he think dad's about to praise me? No, he's not never Never. So he's kind of shocked and I'm glad that I do that, but it's also like, Oh, wow, you gotta be careful. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I love that we get to participate. And I think it's, I actually think it's crucial. So in, in one of the healing steps, I have people go back to the very beginning, as far as they can remember and identify any wrongs

they've done to others and be willing to make amends. I think that is a crucial step. And that came out of the 12 steps. I mean, AA has that, and I think it is. It's about keeping your side of the street clean. I've done, I know that to the best of my ability, I am willing to and have done whatever I can to keep my side of the street clean and in that way

I've removed obstacles and barriers to God's grace in my life. I'm not holding on to thing I'm not holding on to resentments and grudges and Hurts and what I've like cleared away my side of the street said I'm now free You don't have to receive my apology. You don't have to receive my men's But I've done to the best of my ability what I can, and I'm willing to do. And I think it gets that very, very right. If we want to be free, if we want to be healed.

We have to go back and humbly acknowledge all the harms we've done to others and set, be willing to set them right. Be willing to. Yeah, that's really good. I wonder, yeah, I did this with people in high school a couple of years ago. There was also like a girl that I had an impure relationship with in high school. I wrote her a letter and asked her forgiveness. She may have been more offended by the letter than anything. Like, why would this be something, you know?

But I know, maybe she wasn't, but I mean, what do you say to someone who has done something really harmful? Maybe they've raped somebody. Yeah. I always think this when my beautiful sister Miriam shares her story of being sexually abused, you know, she shares it so beautifully and so Simply non gratuitously, you know, she's forgiven him and all that. And she shared and I don't think she'd mind me sharing this because she shared it publicly. I know it's online that she wrote to him and essentially said, I'll forgive you. And he wrote back when there's nothing to forgive. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I mean, how much that must hurt.

Point is, suppose I'm that dude. Yeah. You know, suppose someone's out there and they've talked their girlfriend into getting an abortion or they've raped somebody. What do you say to them? How do they make amends for something that horrific? Yeah, I think, look, in some cases, and maybe that we, I think this is one where we need, um, the guidance of a spiritual director, somebody who's,

um, who has some wisdom, maybe somebody who's familiar with the 12 with the 12 steps have an interesting passage I wish I had a big book so I've done a lot of work with substance abusers and can we can we pull up the 12 steps? yeah there's this beautiful passage in there

where it basically says something like look let's say we've done something that could put us in jail we've stolen money should we be willing to admit our faults? And they say something like. It depends if it's going to cause more hurt or more harm to certain people. Yeah, like the goal isn't, you know, are you looking just for the 12 steps? No. OK. Yeah.

Look online, can we find the big book? We see if I how we can find whatever's in the big book free And it sounds like a book. It's in It's in chapter PDF It's in a chapter called into action Purchase options. I want to do that. Listen, don't burn watch read. Okay. Hey, what's it called into action into? title page Well, here we go Hey, what's it called into action into a title page?

Well, here we go. This is going to be great for its video. It's just watching us. Neil into action found it. But all right, what am I looking for? OK, so maybe control after word amends. OK, the kind of look at it. Yeah, you go. Is that no, yeah, you go. Is that no, no, you go for it.

Okay, this is just a quick story. Well, yeah, go please. Once, you know, I used to speak and write a lot about pornography and. I was traveling somewhere and I thought, well, this is a long flight from San Diego where I was living. This would be a good time to read the the white book, which is the s sexaholics anonymous, right? And yeah, it's white. There's no writing on it on either side It's just anonymous

And so I was sitting down in a plane next to some girl who was in the middle seat and I got up went to The bathroom came back and I realized that the book had curled over the front page So I'm just sitting next to a woman says sexaholics anonymous big dirty. I know. What do you do? You don't explain it. That's just creepy. You probably noticed. I got to do with my beard. Don't draw attention to that one. This is for work. So here it is. It says perhaps we've committed a criminal offense which might land us in jail if it were known to the authorities We may be short in our accounts or unable to make good so they're talking about money But we've already admitted this in confidence to another person

so Part of it is at least being willing to admit it to God yourself and another person I'm not keeping it hidden in the dark. We've already admitted this to another person, but we are sure we would be imprisoned or lose our job if it were known. Maybe it's only a petty offense such as padding the expense account. That little something for me, you know, not a lot. Most of us have done that sort of thing. Maybe we're divorced and have remarried but haven't kept up the alimony. She's indignant about it and has a warrant out for our arrest. That's a common form of trouble too.

Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which should guide our action, reminding ourselves that we've decided to go to any length to find a spiritual experience. We ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing. So I love that first they say like, okay God, what do you want me to do? Give me some sense, give me the courage and some sense of what you'd like me to do.

So that's first. No matter what the personal consequences may be, we're willing to go to any length to right these wrongs. So if that means that you need to go to jail for sexual abuse, then you'd be willing to do that. If you really want to be free, if you want to be humble, if you want to walk humbly with God, then I'm willing to accept the consequences of my actions.

But it says we may lose our reputation or our position or face jail, but we are willing, we have to be, we must not shrink at anything. But then here's the caveat, right? The caveat is usually there's other people involved. Therefore, we're not to be hasty or foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit. We know a man who had remarried because of resentment and drinking.

He had not paid his alimony. She was angry. There was a court order for his arrest. He had commenced a new way of life. It would have been impressive for rogues if he had walked paid his alimony, she was angry, there was a court order for his arrest. He had commenced a new way of life. It would have been impressive for Roe because if he had walked up to the judge and said, here I am. Instead, we thought he should be willing to do that if necessary. But if he were in jail, he could provide nothing for either family. We suggested he first write to his wife admitting his faults and asking for forgiveness.

He did. And he also sent a small amount of money along. He told her that he would try to do this again in the future. He was perfectly willing to go to jail if she insisted. Of course she did not the whole situation is long since. So it's like something like, look, I'm the goal here isn't to just be a martyr. If I have a family, if I have a, I should want, I should want to be able to continue to serve them and honor them. And yet if what I'm after is sort of spiritual freedom, I got to be willing justice, right?

I have to be willing to pay those I owe what I owe and I may owe the authorities. I may owe a person I may owe, and I need to be willing to do that to set it right. a person I may owe and I need to be willing to do that to set it right. What I love about AA a little bit is that it's such a, they ask for everything, all in the service of having a radical experience of God. Like I have to be willing to go to any length not like oh I do But I'm keeping that for myself. It's about radical conversion You know turning the entirety of my life over to him and saying I want to live a new way completely and totally And if that means I need to

Pay somebody $100 a month for the rest of my life because I've stolen I'll do it if that means I need to go to jail for an offense. I'll do it for the rest of my life, because I've stolen, I'll do it. If that means I need to go to jail for an offense, I'll do it. But I have a family now, I have people to take care of. So if I can not be foolish and still continue to provide for the family that I have, like the gentleman there, then I do whatever I can to try to make sure

that that's what happens. But if jail is in the cards, jail may be in the cards. Man of love. And if God is real, and if God is in the cards, jail may be in the cards. And if God is real and if God is in my life and if I've really had this deep and profound conversion, then God's got me in jail as well. And he's brought me there and I will love and serve him and I'll be of maximum service to him and others even in prison. It is kind of weird on a superficial level that people feel tremendous relief when they own up to what they've done, isn't it? Oh my gosh. Like you would think that, no, if I hide it, I won't get in trouble and therefore I should be relieved.

But so many movies have this little turnaround and we've experienced in our own life as well that when we finally come clean, it's just that. It's so liberating. Dr. Bruinger, I'm really interested. So that reminds me of crime and punishment when you just said Matt. What is that? Crime and punishment? Yes, yes, exactly.

I was thinking of, you can help me remember this Matt too, in Brothers Karamazov there's a story about a man who, when he's like young, he, I think he goes in and kills someone, he like goes into their office, commits this perfect crime, killing them, taking the money. And so then he uses that a little bit, but builds his life from there, he gets married, he starts a family. That's right.

And then when he's 50 years old, he says, this has been torturing me my entire life. And so he confesses, I think first to his wife, and then his wife is like, like, I don't believe you. Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think that's true. And then eventually I think he convinces her and he goes to the authorities to strip himself in and they're like, there's like no evidence around this, like you can't just like turn yourself in for a random crime, we're not gonna put you in jail. And so they just send him back to his family and he's, uh, it seems he's like tortured by that lack of punishment.

Yeah, I don't think, yeah, I think we shouldn't have to be punished. We just have to be, I think we have to be willing to be honest. So the goal is to be willing to be honest and say, here's what I've done. And so I even have a section in there section there where this is tough in your book. Yeah. Where I asked people to go back and like sort of take their deepest, darkest secrets of things that they promised they go to the grave with and they write them down and they have to be willing to share them with one trusted confidant.

I recommend that they do it with a, with a spiritual director or a confessor. But I think oftentimes we're as sick as our darkest secret. It's really hard to be vessels of light when we're holding on to darkness. It's really hard to be free the way God wants us to be free when there's a part of ourselves that we will never, never turn over. And so actually like what I like in the story is that he's willing to share it with others. So it's not just about confessing it to Christ in my head. Oh, well, God knows.

I think in humility, I have to share it with another person, right, and with God. But then the goal is to be willing to face whatever punishment, not to actually be punished. I would think for me, the sheer act of saying to the authorities, I did this and I'm willing to accept whatever punishment if they're like, hey, no, we're not going to do it. I'm like, OK, but I'm willing to go if that's what it takes. I would have felt, I think, relief.

But yeah, he's tortured if by the lack of punishment almost. And I think that can be another, I think that can actually be a sort of like self, uh, pity or a self, like I want to give myself more than you're like, like let go. Cause now, now your utter focus on yourself is again preventing you from being of service that God and others. I really want to read this book again. It's funny. I'm teaching it. I'll be in the spring. Yeah.

I love it so much. And I think that what you're referring to, the priest is telling the story, isn't he? He was like a general or he got into some shooting match and he killed somebody, but that may have been different. What's, what's crazy about the brothers is there's so many incredible side stories. It's kind of like the Bible, you know, the Bible timeline. You only need to read this to get the story. You could do that with the Brothers Karamazov. You could just take out so much, but so much is so good. Remember he was going to kill it because that man confessed to this priest and then he said he was tempted to kill him. That's a good part of it too. Oh, that was so good. He confessed to the priest. And he wasn't yet a priest, I don't believe. So it wasn't like he was going to confession. They

just became friends and they would meet every night and he started sharing what was going on. And then on the last night, he was like sweating and he was like, he was gonna kill the man because he was the only one who knew this dark secret. I've never read Brothers King. Oh, it's so good. I gotta read it at the worst.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Just to sum up what I was gonna say there is I was gonna read just the works that I had to teach. Yeah. In Arbe. Yes. But I don't think I'm gonna do that. I just wanna read the Brothers. I just love the Brothers so. In Arbe. Yes. But I don't think I'm going to do that. I just want to read the

brothers. I just love the brothers so much. How are you going to weave that in? What do you what are you teaching? I'm teaching ethics. There's the famous. No, I mean, I'm not I'm not teaching this at all. I'm just saying August.

I take the month off the Internet. OK, you know that I tell everybody so they know how great I am. So I'm surprised I didn't tell you yet. Really, it's all I talk about. Especially around this time of the year. I feel tremendous anxiety around this time of year. It's so weird.

It's the fourth year in a row I've given up the internet, right? I know it's coming. There's a real sense of anxiety. What is it? It's Stockholm syndrome. No, I don't know. It's probably a series of things.

It's like, everything has to be in order once I go. Cause once I go, I give my once I go I give my phone away. I give my computer away. I have no phone. Yeah, Neil's got to keep things banging, you know, like the putting out the clips, but I don't know if he's doing it because I'm not, you know, usually I'll be like, oh, that clips doing well. This video is doing well. It's like an addictive thing. So that fear was the fear.

Thank you. Let's do this. I really want to get to this because it's a number of things, right? There's a series of fears. One fear is I go offline in August you text me You don't get a text back and you think badly of me because why would I disrespect you by not getting back to you? Yeah, but times that by 50 because that's how many people are texting me. Yeah, and I'm not getting back to feel bad about that So but again self-respect it's about what are people gonna think of me? Totally right? That is what it's about desire are people going to think of me? Totally. Right?

That is what it's about. A desire for self-respect. So, or self, what's the word? Yeah, maybe a slightly excessive desire for self, whatever. Praise or adulation. I want to be a respectable person. I don't want people to think I think I'm better than them. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, like it's been a month, right? And I'm still not getting back to them. I don't know what's going on. And I announced it on here. I have an email responder, right? That says I'll be gone until September. If this is important, I say, call my wife,

but then I don't give my number out her number out. Cause I'm like, if you don't know my wife's number, it's not that important to me. We ain't in the circle. It's not that important. Yes. So, but you don't, but there's no such thing as a text responder. Right. Okay. So by the way,

I think this might be going live in August, right? This podcast. So that's why we're recording this in part, right? It's because I want something to come out in August. So if, but there's no text responder, there's no like, Hey, I'm not by my phone right now, at least that I know of. So there's that fear. There's the fear that things will fall apart while I'm away. What would happen with that? Because there's probably even a deeper fear that if things go,

Oh, you're exactly right. So what does falling apart mean? It means like Neil's not doing what he's supposed to. And you'll sitting up here having grand old time. So I have smoke and hookah, smoke and hookah, uploading any clips, not being attentive to that. And then my social media guy is not running his thing. And then what collapses? I don't know. Like maybe YouTube, the algorithm drops off and people don't watch as many videos and I can't catch up

and it's all gonna fall apart and I won't have enough money and we won't be able to make things work. Yes, dude. And somehow at the bottom I'll be alone. I just gotta keep going. And then Cameron sees you're not a good protector provider and your kids think you're not fair. It's so stupid when you say it out loud

because I know none of that will happen. But by the way, like now you're, okay, so you spend all this time, you go off the grid in August. But if you go off the grid with all this fear, are you free to do what God wants you to do at that time? Read the brothers. And it might be, right?

But the whole time you're in the brothers, now you're thinking like, yeah, but I wonder if just Neil is, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. As opposed to just saying like, God, And it might be right, but the whole thing you're in the brothers now you're thinking like yeah, but I wonder if just Neil is yeah Yeah Yeah, as opposed to just saying like God take this fear that I won't have enough money that I won't have enough I won't have enough Agilates how I'm gonna power is all that one. Yeah Take this fear remove it so that I can be of service you all right like God doesn't need

You have a big old audience, right? Right now. But really it doesn't matter because God wants you to be of maximum service to him in whatever way he wants you to be of service. So if tomorrow he decides to take it all and say, Hey, I want you to just be down at Ave teaching one class in ethics. Yeah making 55 grand a year Mm-hmm. That's how I want you to serve me good like I don't think I would pay that much, but yeah But he's so happy to be coming down guys So it's great you go see the great kids definitely go But could you be free to do that?

Because it's not about I mean, very subtly. When God puts us in places and spaces, we can very subtly allow ego and pride, self to attach. And it becomes about us, it becomes about us and about instead of like each day saying, God, it's not about me, not just lip service, but like, for real. I give this all up tomorrow if you said amen. Well, it's funny, like I'm dealing with three things all at once. The first thing, as you said, that was, yeah, this is all about me and I've made it all about me.

And that's a fact. And so I feel how painful it is that that I haven't turned this over. me and that's a fact, and so I feel how painful it is that I haven't turned this over. But then there's another thing going on, which is love is not about what is sensible, it's about the will. And so I like to say this to our Blessed Lord in adoration sometimes. I say, Jesus, I love you, and I don't want to wait till tomorrow until I feel in love with you. And I don't want to wait till my kids are grown up and I can offer you more prayer time. I love you now.

I give it all to you. So there's this, I say that now and I mean it, Lord, take it all away. I give you everything. Good. And again, it doesn't matter how I feel. That's what I do mean that Lord. You know, I mean it. And even if I don't mean it, I still mean it. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so important because we can, we can really get caught up in ourselves in doing God's work. You know, it's been weird. You can psychoanalyze this.

Yeah, what's been weird for me is realizing the influence I have. And again, I know all this is relative. There are thousands of channels that have a gazillion followers. Right. But I've I've been aware of like people email me all the time. Yeah, like people always want to be on my show. People call me out of the blue. I don't know who they are. And they text me and they all want to be on my show. People call me out of the blue. I don't know who they are. And they text me and they all want to be on my show.

And they say the things they should say that would make me want them on my show. Like no one's needy or weird about it, but it's still like, this feels good. Like I have this kind of influence. I'm aware of that. How could you not be aware? How could that not,

how could you not be aware of that? Cause I think I've lived a lot of my life unaware of that, but how could it not affect you? This lie that, you know, like, no, I'm just that humble that it wouldn't affect me. Is it really? Or are you just like all of us? Exactly. And I think being honest, so I would have to have, I do have, right?

At least one guy in my corner who like knows me and he gets carte blanche to call me out on whatever it is right and so when they're like dude this is all about you this is all pride this all like because I've shared everything from the beginning all the nooks crannies wounds hurt like they know it all and they get carte blanche to sort of point out where I'm being motivated by self and pride. Do you ask them to do this or do they just come out of the blue and do it? No, I ask them. It's a part of our, it's sort of a part of... So how do you do that? What does that

conversation look like? So it was it was ages ago. I mean it was it was just sort of like a... let me think, let me think. Was it explicit? It wasn't ex... not in the sense of like, Hey man, I want you to call me out. But it was like a, um, it was an understanding, let's say that I care about you and love you. And I want to see what's best for you. And the same was said to me. And it started off maybe with a little things like, dude, you're just. So, you know, I get into an argument with somebody or I'll never forget, I was 19 and I got into this argument with, with somebody and, uh, it was a family member and here I am, you know, screaming like, meet me outside. Like I'm, I'm coming at you. And I go up to my buddy's house and I tell him the story of what happened. And he's like, dude, I would have been so angry too. But you know that like the way you I would have been so angry too.

But you know that like the way you act, it was totally unjustified and you owe him an amends. Oh, he used that language. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so my buddy's been in AA for years, for years. Whenever I meet someone who says they've been through SA or AA, I just realize immediately that I'm dealing with a much thicker person than most. I think actually some of the holiest people I've ever met and I kid you not, there's some fascinating stories around Bill Wilson, the founder of AA. His spiritual director was a Jesuit priest named Father Ed Dowling.

And there's letters back and forth between them. Where Bill actually apparently like had a vision of like an, and some beings and heavenly being who I think revealed to himself, revealed him as like St Ambrose maybe. It's like, I want to help you write this big book and like a good Jesuit at the time, father Donalding was like, look, we don't know, like we want to discern the beginning, middle and end, and we don't know the end of this. Even Satan can come as an angel of light. So he said like, thank him for his help, but tell him that if God, if this is ordained by God, then I like that. Um, but Bill has a ton of sort of Catholic sympathies and they come out in the big book in little subtle ways. At one point, um,

when you're supposed to admit your faults to others, it says, those of us who belong to denominations that require confession will want to and must seek out the appropriate authority. Like he's saying to Catholics, Hey, if you're going through this, you need to go to confession. So I don't know anything about the foundations of AI. Was he an evangelical Protestant? Yeah, he was a Christian guy. I think, I don't want to botch my Bill W history,

but I think he's a Christian man. I don't know his specificity. I love when I hear Neil clicking. Neil. Like, something's coming. Splice it in. But at the time, the Oxford movement was a religious movement that was trying to help people get sober with the four absolutes. It was like absolute love absolute honesty absolute purity and absolute I

Don't know the four absolutes you said ox food. So did this come out of England? What a question so a generated actually the first meeting Was up in Ohio Wow, So Bill's traveling on vacation. Is he from England or no? No, he's from the U.S. Right. I think he was living in New York at the time. He comes to England. He comes to Ohio. It's like the England of the Midwest. He comes to Ohio and he wants to get drunk. And so he calls. I'm pretty sure he calls the Oxford group or the Oxford movement, and they put him in touch with somebody, this drunk by the name of Dr. Bob, who couldn't get sober. And Bill had sort of had this spiritual experience at this point, and he meets with Dr. Bob,

and they say that that was the first AA meeting, because it was the first time an alcoholic reached out to another alcoholic in help, like to help. And so I think it's in Akron. Akron is, every year in Akron, they have Founder's Day. And it was because Bill Wilson reached out to Dr. Bob Smith and they were the first two members of AA. But Bill Wilson went on to get like catechetical instruction from Archbishop Fulton Sheen.

I think I heard that. He almost, he was, he was interested in Catholicism quite a bit. So all that to say, I think there's a lot there. And I've met some incredibly holy people who have gone through the 12 steps and live a radical and profound life of service to God and have deep, what they would call conscious contact. Every day they want to bring God and God's will into each moment.

And they become like utterly. Myopically focused with wanting to do God's will in each moment, humbly, whatever you ask, I'll go wherever I'll do whatever. Give me the strength and give me the courage and give me the guidance to do what you want. I mean, it's beautiful, but this is what my buddy said, Matt, you own him immense. And this friend just has carte blanche to say whatever he wants and to point it out. And he has, and I've done the same for him.

And I think we need that. I think we need a guy. So this goes all the way back. If I were you, if I were in your position, right? 250,000 followers. I would need someone who could say like yeah, cool, but like Don't forget like I know who you are. I know what you're like Don't buy your own hype. Don't buy your own hype. Any good you're doing is in service to God It's not of service to you If God wants it tomorrow, you've given it to him. You've told him you have it all and then if you've said that

It's not yours. Then don't worry about what Neil does over the summer and don't worry about God you're in charge. I trust you. I think you want me to love and serve my family here in a radical way detachment So I'm gonna do that I'm gonna love and serve you the way I think you want me to love and serve you right now And you'll take care of all that other stuff Yeah, and like Sometimes we have to make that recommitment every moment like four or five six ten times throughout the day So be it

But if you're caught up in fear the whole time you're You're not gonna be the dad you want to be in August. You're not going to be the husband you want to be. You're well, you know, jumping at the bit like this is sort of, since I've done this for four years, there is like a bit of a, what happens is there is this fear and anxiety, but when I click off and give my phone away and impute away, I should have perhaps fleshed this out by explaining this. There's just deep relief. Yeah, I bet. I actually do feel tremendous.

I think the last interview I did last year was with Peter Craeft. It was like the 31st of July or the 30th of July. And I knew that that was it. That's so good. And we didn't have Neil at the time. It was Joseph Palmer. I don't know if you know him.

He works for St. Paul Center doing video stuff. But so when I finished, I gave my phone to Joseph, you know, because I have no self-control. That's not true. I have self-control. I just, I'm smart enough to know where I'm dumb. So I don't take the phone home with me and put it in my top drawer. There's no way that's going to work for a month.

Yeah. So I give it away. And this is. Oh, so good, man. I love it. I went up to Franciscan that night after just giving everything away. And I was just aware of everything a lot more. And then there were these like, you know, the beautiful center of Francisco and you drive up those flowers that are there in the summer. So I see it and I think to myself man there's a beautiful and I want to go see him and then I think well that's a bit weird I

don't be weird and then I think why not the whole point is to look at them that's why they're there that's actually the only reason and I'm not gonna do it cuz I want would be weird Screw not be aware. It's actually got to go up Let you see them and look at them pick it off and I think it's great Yeah, it's I am very blessed I mean, it's it is certainly a blessing that I can do that not everyone can take a month off and I've tried I remember one lent I was like I'm just gonna go online one day a week

Like why be all or nothing about it? Turns out I have to be all or nothing about it. Really? Yeah. Cause if I let the internet in one day, it's like the, what is it? The camel nose under the tent. It's like, it just comes in. And that's just might be due to temperament or how I work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I need to be all or nothing. That's interesting. With everything in my life, like with exercise, with diet, with... Interesting. I gotta get, I gotta go all in or else I just... Or nothing. That's interesting. Everything in my life, like with exercise, diet, with interesting. I got to get, I got to go all in or else I just, I don't know. Like if I just say, I'm going to eat better. I mean,

maybe that's like everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be very specific about what I will and won't do or else it just, things just start fading in or out. So I'll say things like, I'm going to allow myself to watch TV. Like with my wife or kids. Like I have to say these rules out loud to myself. Otherwise I feel like, oh, I'm conceding and then well, I've conceded. So I may as well just quickly check and see. And then it's, it's, it's good night. Do you think, um, is this, is this hard? Is this as a job? Uh, like from the outside, I think people would look and say,

like, what a cake job. Oh, it's the best. Yeah. Like you get to just like talk to people all the time. It is the best. It's not hard. Yeah. I love it so freaking much. But there are like fears and anxieties and. They creep up or creep in. Yeah. Maybe the Lord was merciful to me knowing that I couldn't have a real job.

And so gave me this. Yeah. Matt, have you have you had a real job and so gave me this. Yeah. Matt, have you had a nine to five? Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. I used to work at a copper mine in the outback.

It reminds me of working in the salt mines of Uganda. Have I worked? Yeah, but I did. But actually it wasn't hard work. Sorry, I was in the office. Look at these hands. I was in the office in Melbourne, but we own a copper mine. Yeah, my bad.

No, I worked as a analytical lab technician. So we would we would run the samples to see what minerals were in the swing. You weren't swinging the pickaxe. No, a little bit, but not much, not much. So I did that. I worked at a grocery store and then I worked at like a couple of parishes. And yeah, but I just not working with people. I used to work at Catholic Answers. You ever heard of them? Yeah. Yeah.

In San Diego. So I used to work there nine to five, too. OK, I didn't know they were out of San Diego. No, it's such a blessing because I'm so freaking like entrepreneurial. Yeah. And I don't do well with regularity. Like with like nine to five and you're gonna be busting on all cylinders No for me if I wake up at 530 I can come in I can crush more work in three hours than I would imagine Many people couldn't a day. Yeah, and then I just go and have a nap. I have a nap every day. I try today Yeah, I napped every day in college. I love naps napping. I loved it. I don't even have for 20 minutes

Oh, no, that's not a nap. That's a long blink, Matt. If it, I used to, like in college, it was like, if it was less than an hour and a half, that's not a nap. See, I don't want an hour and a half nap though. I'd be exhausted. I want a two hour nap. I want two. And do you wake up feeling good? Like an absolute phenom.

Like a legend. My wife, if she has a nap, she wakes up angry. So she's not a nap. There's something about, I read something a while back about it matters what sleep cycle you wake up in. That if, and Neil can fact check all this, but something like if you wake up in the wrong sleep cycle, you're more likely to have a negative mood.

So like the key is like wake up in the right sleep cycle. Yeah. So that you like. Well the other day, Bob Rice, I don't know if I told you this, he invited me over. He's I hate 10 p.m. Me and the guys are gonna get together and watch hockey. This is like, I'm like, I will ruin my day. And p.m. The hell are you talking about David? My wife started laughing. She said you're so old. She's right. Maybe but that would actually ruin the next day. Yeah. Yeah. I have a buddy who watches boxing. He loves boxing.

I'd like to love boxing. Okay, he I've started to appreciate it more I thought it was just like dudes slugging each other. He has introduced me to sort of the Skill of boxing where I'll watch he's timing the guys jab and he's waiting to set up that and oh look at how he's feigning And he's he's getting his reach. He's so he's really shown me that there's a real Skill and sort of a chess like approach to boxing. It's not just brute sort of smashing each other. But most boxing matches, I mean it's like the pay-per-views start at 10 and like the main event comes on at 12 and it's over at 1. So I've gone a couple times but I'm just like buddy I can't, my day's

ruined if I... Because there's a certain amount of sleep that if I don't get it no amount of coffee will fix it. I'll just be under this deep heavy cloud. No, that's right. And I wake up the same time every day. I wake up like 6, 5, 36, 7. I can't sleep in even if I want to.

That's crazy. Were you up the other morning when I was outside waiting to pick up your son? Remember that? I wasn't. Stop! Well, I had the air conditioner on. I like putting things loud so I can't hear anything else. That actually. So in our neighborhoods, yeah. In the summer when we

turn the ACs on, I realized I actually sleep much more fitfully because I like being able to know that I can hear the house better in the winter. That's said somebody good about you and bad about me. I don't hear anything Downstairs and you're just like yeah. Yeah. I have no fear about people coming into my house Really, but maybe I should but I don't have no fear Everything. Yeah, dude, we lock it. We're also upstairs like we're all upstairs on the same floor Oh people in this in the attic. No one goes up there people don't yeah people don't go to the second floor when they're robbing houses. Yeah only first floor. No my point is if my kids were on the first floor then I'd be worried maybe. Yeah seriously. But they're next door. I see. Yeah I had a just yesterday some guy

pulled up in our alley I was outside pulled up in our alley got out walked around the corner got in another guy's car and was buying drugs and so when he got out I had to say hey me, like I'd appreciate it if you didn't buy drugs in front of my house. Stub and V. What did he say? He was like, oh yeah, yeah, sorry bro. How did you know he was buying drugs?

Because I- It was so obvious. I fired up the lawnmower and went down and pretended to mow the strip next to it. And he was pulling out wads of cash and handing it to the guy. Like I saw the exchange. And I kindly asked him not to sell drugs or buy drugs we had a In terms of like confronting people we had John Henry on the show. He's cross be no John Henry's fan

I'm going to Africa next month to go. What are you doing hunting? Oh gosh, that's dude. Okay, so my wife has this With him. That's why I brought that okay. My wife has this thing about Neil This is great because I see where this is going. So my wife thinks of your job Neil is Like this is great. This is good. Should be your description what he's about to say Okay, the long interviews are like like a little smoldering fire, right? And like like coals and Neil's job is to take the long interview chop it up and like spray gasoline on it so these little clips are just like, flared.

Therapists! Yes! Or like, so for sure, Matt's gonna talk about big game hunting in Africa, and Neil's gonna take a clip that's like, killing an elephant, exclamation point, exclamation point, and a hundred million people are gonna click it, cause a ton of people out there hate big game hunting,

and this eight minute clip, whatever is coming for the next eight minutes Neal's gonna real writing down. Yeah big game Yeah, and it's gonna flare up and it's gonna get like a hundred thousand likes You wealthy dentist male Trick is to make him think that it's like someone who made a video about how they caught you hunting Yeah, you're on to it. Okay, so you're going to Africa two years ago My best mate John Henry said he's oh, he's been his life dream to go to Africa and hunt So we started saving and what are you hunting? I don't really know what's going on big big game

Big big game Yeah, I mean what are those what are those things called with the horns those things Shooting those in the face I don't like seeing the life drain from their eyes In the face, I can't know I'm in this clip just so the world knows. And just so you know, it's, I mean, it's done all responsibly. The meat goes to the local folks. To be honest, the conservation. Yeah. I think people,

people have a real whatever about this stuff. But in reality, the conservation effort, they make a ton of money off this stuff that goes back into the local communities. And we don't get the meat goes to them. Exactly. So anyway, why don't I say that? I had John Henry. You're hunting you confronting the guy selling drugs. Yes.

One of my favorite John Henry moments is we were sitting in Chick-fil-A. It was me and him and John Henry's just trooper and he teaches high school on his. He's just really brash and the kids were behind us in the next booth. Just F this and that And I could just see John Henry kind of getting upset slowly and then he turns around he leans over He's like hey, could you stop f-ing swearing? They'd be great. Thanks Turn around and they just shut up so my dad is My dad's from inner-city Philadelphia a A place called Fishtown. Like, tough. Blue-collar. Poor.

My dad is a tough man. He's a big man and he's a tough man. But he's older now. 60, 61. So, we're at a Pirates game last summer. They came in for Charlie's birth. We're at a Pirates game. There's probably 20 kids behind us from from Grove City College drinking and using all sorts of language. And I'm sitting there with you know my little kids the five-year-old the ten-year-old okay and I'm sitting there my dad my. All game this is going on, all game. And the Phillies are at the Pirates. My dad's a huge Phillies fan. At one point, the language is getting bad.

So I look at my dad and I'm like, kind of make a face. Like now's time? And he goes, yeah. And he's like, let's go. And I was like, no, I want to stay. So my dad's, the Phillies are losing. So he's angry, right? To begin with.

And so he's ready to go. And I no like I want to stay we paid for the tickets Let's stay I'm just gonna ask them to to use better language And he leaned in and he said just so you know I'm not taking any from them And I was like my dad there's 20 kids from Grove City behind us and my my 60-year-old father, if they say something to me, is going to absolutely smash them. I mean, just destroy. So, luckily I turned around, I was like, guys, can you please, and they were like,

oh, I'm sorry, man, I'm sorry, oh, my bad, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, what'd they say? And I was like, they said it's fine, dad. They called you fat. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, and he was like what they say Yeah, I don't know but it sounded like Yeah, yeah John Henry sounds like Mick Brugger so when you said could you stop swearing did you say something about your kids Yeah, I said guys. I said there's a bunch of little kids here. Can you just you're using all sorts of like can you please just stop? Like there's young kids. Yeah, and they're god, dude We're sorry, bro. Yeah, sorry, bro We didn't and of course like, you know and ending later a couple f-bombs slipped back out

But yeah, but they weren't let me go at that. They weren't being belittled. Yeah Yeah, I remember my dad my dad would never have any problem correcting people. I was always to my great shame I remember going to a movie who had one movie theater in Port Piru, South Australia, still one movie theater there, movie comes out every month. So we were sitting there, me, dad and Tom, my brother, these kids, and we know everybody because it's a small town. Everybody knows everybody, you know, so I'm already there with my dad watching the movies. And my dad turned around and said, hey, excuse me. We paid bloody good money for these seats. That's like really proper, dude. Oh god. Oh god.

I'm so proud of him for doing that. I'm glad he did it. Yeah. Bloody good money for these seats. My dad, you never felt, my dad's the kind of guy that when you were out with him, you always felt safe. You never felt unsafe. Like he, in terms of like protecting, you always, Big big mac you always felt safe with big mac. He just

Remember this kid was making fun of me in like sixth grade said some terrible things to me I went home and I told my dad and This is great. So where my dad grew up I Guess because it was probably like pretty poor when you wanted to confront someone you put on your nicest suit Like you got dressed up. So my dad puts on his nicest suit He goes and knocks on the door. The wife answers. He said hi is mr. So-and-so here The dad comes to the door and he says look here's what your kid said to my kid And if he ever says that again

If he so much as speaks to my kid, I'm coming back here and I'm Peeting you up. I'm gonna kick your your rear end Kid never said anything again. I mean big but yeah, so it doesn't have the sort of erudite It was a little I think a little grittier but my dad I will say much to his credit you always felt them Very safe in his presence. That's a very very safe, and I just don't have I don't always have that I Felt a little afraid to confront that guy yesterday just cuz you don't know so yeah fine drugs You don't quite know the but good for you for doing the courageous playing like yeah I try to play it smart though, too, cuz it's no good if I get shot in the face and right.

That unhelpful. My wife says like, yeah, well he, at least he overcame his fear and confronted that you're like, so trying to read the situation and felt like the right situation. It's hard to know whether I'm listening to courage or cowardice. Exactly. Right. Cause you can say, well, I better not. There's no point.

It's only happened once. It's not going to happen. Good. Exactly. So yeah, that it's only happened once. It's not going to happen. Good. Exactly. Doing that. So, yeah, that's always the never short of a shortage of opportunities here in town. We get a drunk guy on our street who's very polite and lovely when he's not drinking.

And even when he is drinking, he's polite, like way too polite. Hey, Matt, how you doing? And I struggle to know how to interact with this person because I don't want him close to my family. You know, like I don't want him to feel like we're friends, but I also want to love him. So, oh, hi, how are you? Great to see you. Yeah.

And the only kind of snow I like is on postcards. That's his line every time every time. Like it's new. Yeah. And I agree. So that's that's that's that's that's different you know I feel like when I was when I was a young man I would put myself in places and spaces that felt like you know like with homeless people with addicts with alcoholics you know I'd go to these places that, um, and put myself in situations that were, you know, maybe dangerous. Um,

but I feel very, you know, I'd invite them into my house. My, my grandmother is a saint. Um, and so sometimes she would come home. I was living with her for a period, it's like 19 or 20 and I would just bring like homeless people to like shower and she would like come into her house, like a homeless guy showering. She'd be like, who's in the shower? Oh, it's my buddy, Randy, right?

Like Randy is, yeah, Randy hasn't showered in months and he's hammered and it was like a bed and breakfast that I would just, you know, it was sort of, yeah. So God bless her but now these days right I just wouldn't I feel like my family's on the line and I just feel so much so protected. The second day we moved into Lawson Avenue we had a drugged out woman walk into our back door. No no no here's where I was laughing because it was like I just moved to Steubenville I know you guys say this

doesn't happen all the time but I now think you're all lying So I wrote to Bob Lesniewski. I'm like hey this drugged out woman. He lived on the same street as me Just came to my house. He just wrote back was it Kate? His wife is what was it Kate that was brilliant. It's so funny But man, I just launched at her get out of my house like and I oh don't you ever Come back here. It just all came out because my son was like dad. I know oh I've had that busy. I'm happy that that's happened with a fella too before or so might think that I was that way that Sheila we had a bloke walk into our house right after Liam was born in Ireland.

He was the painter. He would paint our house. Unfortunately, big alcohol problem in Ireland, of course. With the area we lived, it was like every single family had been hurt by alcoholism. Yeah, this guy, a huge beast of a guy, came in. He was just slurring and speaking against the faith because we were into that kind of thing and he had muddy boots on. I am glad.

It is nice when You see yourself like acting courageous even without thinking of it like when I hit that bat in the face. I grabbed a candlestick back in the barrel I Fived it hey And like didn't you joke about white people like redoing high fives was that you I don't think so It was like white guys like redoing high five. So it's a thing that we do, apparently. Anyway, but I picked up a brass candlestick because I was like, I'm going to have to hit this guy in the face.

And unfortunately, I didn't get to. That would have been a cool story. A great story. But he ended up leaving. But because he saw in your eyes. Yeah, because I was laying in bed with my wife and a brand brand new son Liam doesn't um I will never forget the feeling So when I got married I felt that again I it's like this unlocking of your heart I felt such love for my wife, and I felt so protective on our honeymoon and But when like art

when our first baby was born never forget like that Sunday taking the baby in the car seat out of the car to go to mass and just feeling like I will like I will seriously hurt anyone who like threatens the well-being of this child you know like a car drives up and you're like whoa slow down man this is a parking lot I have a baby like I felt it felt like it unlocked a real sort of This dementia that's why this argument that you know this isn't always the case But being a parent makes you a better human Because all of a sudden you're concerned about the safety of the parks and the safety and what's going on in the schools

There's yes, they even care about that. Yeah, your circle of concern widened so much Yep. Yeah This is fun. This is great. This is great some some googlings. Yeah, so Bill Wilson very adamantly Homosexual Indian man, that's not him So he's very adamantly non-denominational speaking. He did all those things you said were true, though. Good.

And he, depending on who you asked, apparently almost became Catholic at one point. His wife thought he wasn't even close ever, a friend did. Thought he was close to converting at one point. And then the REM sleep is a thing, too. Is it the one... Yeah, what do you want to come out of? So I think it's like the...

You essentially go steps down, and then the deepest one is that REM sleep, which is like when the, you know, deep dreaming occurs, and then it's like specifically important. And I couldn't find this, I was looking for this study, but I remember reading about a study a while ago where they had... They specifically sensed when people went into REM sleep

and woke them up right away. And then like, I think it was like More than two-thirds of the people just dropped out of the study because it made them so miserable Yeah, yeah, there's something about like if you wake up in certain stages, maybe it's REM Maybe it's stage four something like that stage three You like wake up with more negative affect than if you sort of come up to stage two or one or something Anyway, it could just be mad that you're waking up. That's why I think they say 20 minutes is like the right length of time.

I feel so good. But multiply 20 by some even number like, Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Like yesterday I had a nap and I came down and oh, how long was I sleeping? And Peter's like, you went to sleep? Yeah. It was six minutes. Yeah. It's so funny. It's actually a real interesting experience. Noticing your thoughts as they drift into sleep. You know, they just get weird. Like there's an emu. Why is there an emu?

That's normal that I'm thinking about that, isn't it? When I was young, I used to be terrified that like every time I fell asleep, there was some like terrible thing that happened in my head and I just never remembered it. So I used to like always try very particularly to try to remember what it felt like falling asleep. Oh, interesting. What do you guys do to get like, to get to sleep? What do you think about to get to sleep? I fall asleep so quickly.

I absolutely have no, like I literally- When you're having a nap too? Roll my head over and- Same thing, if you're napping in the day? If I'm tired enough to nap, I just fall out. Like I don't- What about you? Well, I take a melatonin a lot of time

I'm doing like that helps melatonin my wife's talks about it I've read that you have to take it a while before and that's what I found this It's like it takes like 40 or half an hour to Take it but then also just making sure I'm like relaxed just physically is a big thing. I'm like Yeah, I'm aware of that more and more. I all this'll just- That stuff can help quite a bit, I think. Is that right? Yeah, like doing, like a- Oh, I think you've been melatonin.

No, no, like, like noticing tension and you're knocking back. Some people write out like, like the to-do list, like all the things in your head that you feel like you have to hold onto or chew over. You just write it all down and just put it by your bed. See, that's good. That'll be a little diff August.

That's a great idea for August. All the things I'm worried about and then show- Write all down and just put it by your bed. See, that's good. That'll just a little different. August is a great idea for August. All the things I'm worried about and then show right down and get asleep. Yeah, I'll do two things. I listen to a horror podcast, a horror podcast. Speaking of just letting the intention just relax. What about you? Let the income alive while you're sleeping. Yeah. So my favorite horror podcast, good knife point horror.. And it's more, I think it could be better described so it doesn't give the wrong impression as supernatural suspense fiction. It's always like first person accounts

of a guy like, and it's like, it's pretty horrific, but it's more strange than it is. Okay. Yeah. Like that. I can't do gory and he's got a lovely voice. And so I'll just lay down, listen to him or I'll do this thing this thought experiment I don't know if I where I I'll imagine myself Walking into a big giant cathedral. Mm-hmm. This is gonna sound I don't know how this sounds but we've begun it So I guess I'm gonna have to run it through I'll walk into a giant cathedral at dawn and there's candles lit everywhere and I'll just walk through and I'll just Get him, you know extinguish them one by one.

It's kind of like the equivalent of jumping sheep, of counting sheep, but it's more Catholic. It's like a guided meditation, for real, a guided meditation where you're slowly bringing, like dimming the lights, getting dark. Yeah. I kind of like that quite a bit. Yeah, naps are fun. I don't do podcasts at all. You don't listen? No, I'm aware of very few. There's one neat

podcast that I'm aware of, American Catholic History. Are you still getting him in the camera? Sorry. Like you've fully moved it. I had a melatonin before. I don't, yeah, I ever heard of it. I don't care. I ate a melatonin before. I don't, yeah, I've become aware, you know, American Catholic History podcast. Is it good? Local people have it, yeah. It's like a short period of time and it goes through really interesting, like American Catholic history. Like the roots of Catholicism in America. Local guy, Tom Crowe and his wife Noelle run it.

It's great. But other than that, like I don't, I couldn't name, I mean, is this a podcast? What is this? This is a podcast. This is a podcast. I think podcast, maybe I don't even know what a podcast is. I think it used to be, Neil, you can correct me,

but I think it used to be that podcasts were the audio things that you would download from an audio like store, like Apple or whatever. But then video got implemented into a lot of these things. So then the basic of the same thing. So when I watch if I watch the Joe Rogan podcast, I'm not watching a video. I think I see it's just all called. Is this for one? Is this for one? Just audio or just only to watch.

OK, OK. Oh, man, this is really cool. I'm going to give you some. Yeah. I'm going to give you some really great, horrific titles. OK, to his podcast No, not this time, but this is a different horror podcast what hold on have you always loved the genre horror? Yeah, I write horror you write I have my own podcast. It's good sibling horror. No, that's true. Yeah You just audio. Yeah, it's real. I think it's really good. So I've to listen to two podcasts I'll do like the rich American history and then terrible awful horrible

Yeah, some of it's pretty awful. Did you get dark? Is this just like a an outlet for your? Your id I think it's I've always liked strange things like I love the X-Files as a kid. Yeah. Yeah I'm sure and again, it was less the, oh, how gross is that? And more it's it's autumn and something bad's happening and it's weird. It's strange as hell. And what could that be? Yes. I was going to ask, why do you think you like horror?

Do you have a self-diagnosis? I wouldn't sit down and watch. Certainly there's I think few other genres as filled with filth as the horror genre. Yeah. OK. Certainly, there's, I think, few other genres as filled with filth as the horror genre. Yeah. OK. So I wouldn't watch nor would I recommend anyone watch Freddy Krueger or not, because I'd say they're intrinsically wrong or something. I just think for the most part, they're probably very unhelpful and awful. But then if I would say, OK, what's a movie that I would find scary that what and what is it about that I enjoy? Um, what was that movie with the fella from the office, Jim?

Oh, what place? Quite a place. So like horror, the definition of horror is something that invokes an intense feeling of fear, shock or disgust. Matt, do you think? OK, baseline, like you wake up in the morning, baseline. Are you does it take a lot to get you to like zero? Do you think part of the reason horror is so interesting to you is it? It's like stimulating enough to capture your attention for a long period of time. Like, do you feel like baseline? It just takes a fair amount to capture attention.

And like, it doesn't like not much excite you, but horror kind of like. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't want to quickly say yes or no. I'm really curious. We might go down a path. What's your baseline? And I might agree with both, even though they contradict. Um, I wake up and I'm ready to go. I'm pumped. Yeah. But I tend to get over things quickly.

So to your point about it being able to hold my attention, that might be right. Like. I wonder what. Yeah, my wife's the only thing that's been able to keep my attention this long. Well played sir. She's the real I'm right in line. She's hilarious. I love it. Yeah. She scares me shocks me. Yeah. She scares me. All right. But here is it's called the dark Somnium. I'm not advocating that people listen to these. Is this your story? No, no, no. These are, I'm not going to read you a two hour. Can I be honest? Relax. Give me one. I want to hear the best title to one of yours.

I don't think I have good titles. I don't have good titles. What's your favorite premise of one that you've done? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My favorite premise is this kid wakes up in his bed one night and he's in a country rural town and usually you just hear the wind blowing and a dark dog barking in the distance and

he hears a man's voice, not his father's, deeper than his say, I'm outside your house. And then he makes his way into the house. I'm inside your house. I'm walking up the stairs and he hides under his blanket and the man pulls the no and then finally the the protagonist throws the blankets off and there's nothing there and then he notices under his bed there's a rubber Nike dirty sneaker and that the man has crawled under his bed and is hiding like a kid but not very well and there's a lump in the mattress and the man and he starts to giggle.

Oh, man, starting to giggle to the gay or horrific or both. And and he runs down to tell his father and his father comes. Up with him. And he's not there, but then that dad isn't his dad. Oh, my creepy. And the man breaks apart like Lego under the bed. So he's, no that's right! So the dad comes up and the dad sees the man under the bed.

He's like, see, there's nothing to fear here. There's nothing. He sees the man under the bed and the kids afraid. And so the real dad starts pulling out the man. He's like, I'm just removing his leg part of his torso. And it says the ends of his, we really have to do a trigger warning at some point. The ends weren't bloody. They were more like a mannequin pieces. And then we don't know if the dad, okay. So that's your story. That's one of my

stories. And I've got another story. It's probably my favorite where a guy's dog speaks to him and it sends him makes him crazy That was actually what happened with the summer of Sam. Do you remember this? I know what it is. He's a serial killer Who is I think he's out in New York is a real story. Yeah, he was up in his room He was up in it. I think he was a schizophrenic man up in his room. It was hot. It was in New York summer 70s maybe? I don't know, Neil. I'm looking here.

Summer is saying. But there's this dog barking persistently and I think he thought that the dog was talking to him. Make sure this is right, but I think he thought the dog was talking to him and he went on a killing spree. That'll happen. Well, I didn't know about that.

This little story is about 14, 15 minutes long. It's called walls And so one day the dog turns around and looks at him and says no one will ever believe you he turns back around And it's just what happens to this man. It's my favorite story. All right, okay. Here are some titles that are freaking brilliant. Yeah ready Someone has been standing outside my house for over a year Someone has been standing outside my house for over a year. This is the title of the podcast or like of the story.

Here's another one. This was terrifying. Ready? My wife has been peeking at me from around corners and behind furniture. Shut up. Isn't that horrific? No one thinks so long. The Museum of Humanity's final war. Doesn't that make you want to click on it? What's this one called? Creepy Internet pictures come from somewhere.

I don't know what that means. And I don't think that's very good. The other side of the grave. Lock the door. That's a good one. Lock the door. That's really good. That is good. I know why we never returned to the moon.

Because we've never been there. Let's go. Blow that up, people. So it looks like we have been to the moon. According to the American government. Okay, the murders were, I think they were titled like, Son of Sam or something like that. Son of Sam, yeah, yeah, okay.

The Son of Sam murders. I think there was a Spike Lee movie, Summer of Sam. Okay. And then... There was a dog barking, I think he said. It's in the 1976. I haven't gotten to what he... I think it was hot in the dog.

Okay, sorry. This one's probably the best so far. None of them have been scary so far to be honest. The thing in the basement is getting better at mimicking people. That doesn't OK. Now look at the photo. That doesn't scare you. Those are scary photos. But I want to know what the thing is.

My job. Exactly. It's where you want to click. My job is watching a woman trapped in a room. Oh, God. Can I say this is not horror? And I put this out freely to the world if somebody wants to do something with this I think the best idea I've ever had it's horror in a different sort of way Is that it could be a poem or a short film? But it starts with a little girl Dancing sort of in in the mud It's like muddy earthy and her mom sort of standing the mud. It's like muddy, earthy.

And her mom sort of standing on a porch watching her standing from somewhere, watching her through a doorframe. The girl's twirling and twirling and twirling, and she's catching snowflakes on her tongue. And they're not snowflakes. Only they're not. And like, dude, it's she's a she's a she's in a prison camp. She's in a she's in like Auschwitz and it's it's the ashes from the smoke stack.

She's catching the ashes from the burnt bodies on her tongue and her mom sort of horrified and like pulls her away. And then the soldiers come and get she and her mom and they're marching them to the gas chamber and her mom's her mom's recounting all of these passages from the Old Testament to her and ends with the passage where the smoke fills the tent, like smoke being a symbol of God's presence when the smoke fills the temple. And the mom reminds the little girl that smoke filling the temple is God's presence, the presence of Yahweh.

And so the final scene is there in this gas chamber and the little girl that smoke filling the temple is God's presence, the presence of Yahweh. And so the final scene is they're in this gas chamber and the little girl's so scared. And all of a sudden she says, look mom, Yahweh. That's a great beginning and ending right there. I know. I love the tie in. Yeah, Yahweh. And as the smoke fills the chamber, they all fall to their knees and kind of,

but if somebody wants to turn that into a beautiful poem or a 10 minute- Steven, anyone is Steven Spielberg Spielberg's listen Look at this one if you see an ice cream truck in your neighborhood go inside and lock the doors. That's good It's been explained what these are to me. I don't know. So you click them though. You click them and then it's an audio podcast It's just a story. Yeah that people have written and I think I think The man with the wooly face so that I like that better so it's like three words don't show anybody it's short that's horror that that is the kind of stuff that that sounds scary to me the other ones are

really long like I my wife has been looking at me from sometimes under the cutting board but also sometimes in the shower occasionally on Tuesday morning she's like that is not scary it's too many words Matt are you familiar with bad two-sentence horror? No, if you google bad two-sentence words people trying to do what you're talking about bad but missing by far two sentence I'm so excited All right cheeseburger.com. What's that? I don't know I don't Know where I would find it. I've just seen it on how did magnetic virus on I I know you too dad it's time for you to open your Christmas presents. I said jokingly What I don't understand title one day I was walking down the street and someone started to the chase me

He cried when he saw the acceptance letter from Stanford as he wished his parents could be here to see it. I don't know what these are. Yeah, that's really bad. Well, I just bought new boots and it says horror twist to stomp my dog. A guy said I was too ugly to get a girlfriend. And now that I've killed him, he won't be getting a girlfriend either. Oh my gosh. Is this kind of what you mean? Now? I think I've killed him he won't be getting a girlfriend either. Oh my gosh. Is this kind of what you mean?

Now I think I've found it. I'm the one that always knows when you've got under uncovered toes whilst asleep I'll uncover your feet then those tasty treats I'll eat. Is this what you're doing that? Well, what I've seen is probably the thing is seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it.

I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it.

I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it.

I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. wasn't in. What? Because she was at the Kroger. My mum always said that our family couldn't handle peppers. It was only when I felt my teeth falling out that I really understood what she meant. Is this this is what you're talking about? Yeah. Well, yeah, the ones I've seen.

Yeah. Are better. It's just like they go they go bad in wrong ways. It's like it's gratuitous, is poorly written. When the blood starts piercing the surface That's when you know the steak is medium rare. I watched helplessly as Gordon was searing. What was once my thigh muscle

The Gordon Ramsay is is that I don't even know if they're smart enough to get that my god I sat alone in the dark ways gonna keep going to this is They're smart enough to get that my god. I sat alone in the dark ways gonna keep going to you This is a satellite in the darkness waiting for someone to come and fix the elevator when I heard the guards voice over the intercom Don't worry. Someone will be there soon to get you both out It just sounds like a look that's pretty good. That's pretty good They thought they were alone in the elevator and someone said we're kind of get both of you out It's kind of something that you know, those elevators are like electronic. So when they stop, somebody knows. Yeah, it's not. You're like my wife who like ruin stories with your logic.

Well, how does that make sense? Shut up and just enjoy. Actually, actually, you guys are funny. What's cool is that no one's going to have watched this far into their wet this loss. They've deserved this at this point. Yeah. All right. I want just to see how many people have watched this far into the show. I would like you to give us your best bad two sentence. That's pretty funny. I woke up one morning full of enthusiasm. Then I know to, I know. Oh, what? What they notice.

I don't know if I should read it or not, like it's bad, but OK, big trigger warning. Oh, my gosh. Which I just show it. I got to read it now. But you see it. I'll be the voice. I'll be the voice. Read that and then read that. Don't read all at once. No, I read it can't read that I read it. Oh my gosh that one's dark so silly Um, here's a scare like this would be scary, right? What if you woke up in your hands?

We're sewn on to where your feet should be in your feet. Yeah, or where your hand should be See you've gone there too. Don't pretend you're better than this This is But no, I'm different places. What I like to do is the least amount of strangeness that would still frighten you That's what's best. I love I loved a quiet place like a quiet place was I Really like that. That's the like range range I have I can't do the gory Yeah, I'm like that like a telltale heart. Remember who wrote a telltale heart. It's like um, oh that's a short story by Edgar Allen Poe

It's guy kills a man and he like buries the heart under his floorboards. Yes. He started to put boom. Yeah Here's the beating in the heart. Even that's like a little too. I like you know why I I But here's the beating in the heart. Even that's like a little too. I like you know why I Think part of my job like knowing that like there are people out there who have done and do this sort of thing It's just too Like I can't read about serial killers. I can't read it just gets too real for me. Yeah, and I feel like Here's a question for you ready Neil and Matt. What's the? Here's a question for you already, Neil and Matt. What's the like the lowest thing?

What I mean, the simplest thing that could happen if we walked out of these doors, that would freak us out. So it's like if you like with the curtains turn into blood. Well, that's obviously far too much. Yeah. Simplest thing. I got one. So here's one. And this isn't the best, but just to get us started. We walk out there and there's a child that none of us know playing with blocks in the corner. Just content. Yes. Singing to herself.

The hell the Peppa pigs and the doors locked and we don't know who dropped her off. And so if that actually happened, we'd be like, we wouldn't. I don't know if we'd be horrified. We'd be like, where did I be horrified? Where did you where did you come from? That is like that's like a common thing, right? In these core films, like the sound of laughing and playing children. It's a juxtaposition of the strangeness with the horror.

Yeah, with the soothing or with the something that should settle you. It's like it's why nursery rhymes are coupled with graphic depictions. I want to hear Neils, actually. I was going to say, well, I thought I thought of walking out of the hallway and I've pictured before just like seeing like a kind of really like dark outline of a figure kind of like move like out of sight. Maybe we go investigate and there's just you can't find anything. See, my horror stories do usually have a moral to them, right?

So here's an idea I had. I had an idea of somebody who sees something in his periphery. Is that the word periphery? Not peripheral, it's peripheral vision, periphery. And if you look at it, you die. And so this has been happening and maybe you start to hear about this thing.

And so you really want to look at it. But that thing is the thing like alcoholism or pornography Or the thing we don't want to look at but see that's not a good moral don't look at a thing don't cope with it Just drink out here and avoid avoid avoid No, that's interesting. Come on in have a seat said the dentist who invented the electric chair Finally I'm all alone I said in my bedroom at midnight. No, you're not said knife guy No, I've got So here's I heard this from somebody I'm not making this up

but I thought it was really good a man sits alone in his living room one night and He is startled by the piercing screams of his daughter. He spills his tea over and bolts up the stairs. He opens the door and can barely see her in the twilight. And she says, Daddy! She's curled up on her bed. Something's under my bed! And to placate her, he walks over and calms her down, and he lifts up the skirt of the bed, and what does he see?

But his daughter, saying, Daddy! Something something's above on top of my bed. Fuuuuuuuuck! Isn't that good? That's terrifying. So I'll come up with an idea like that and I'll just write a story after the end of it. Guys, I find my. Yeah, I'm in very different places. Yeah, this is so good. I find my yeah, I'm in very different places New house new life they say I said out loud as the malicious pitbull approached a morning to death

Dude what about like like a high interest rate is like horrifying to me now, you know what I mean? I like welcome to your new home. Your interest rate is five point seven five percent. The bank said that. That's horrifying to me. So I was joking about this the other day that when I was a teenager, I used to listen to heavy metal. Now if you're like, what do you what do you listen to?

I would say I listen to rainy coffee shop ambience with calm jazz music and rain sounds for sleep studying and relaxation Why why do you ask Grandma fell asleep for the last time in the hospital bed something else woke up It's not as bad as the last one. I wasn't scared of long hallways. That wasn't until I met the hallway man That's like the one I had in mind when I said Was that specific one? Are you a horror guy nil two? Do you do horror?

Not really that you guys can't fall asleep It's weird that you have to do all these things to kind of see when I listen to horror It's not that creepy someone's been outside of my house. It's not that it's more suspense fiction Okay, one more than you can answer. How do you fall asleep to it though? So you said okay, this is I you know It's funny. I don't need to be committed to it It needs to be interesting enough that my attention isn't scattered on a thousand thoughts But not so interesting that I can't fall asleep and so many of you'll doze off. Oh, yeah. I'll wake up to the end Oh my god, I know that can't be good. Listen to this and then you can answer in

1950 there are two point5 billion people on earth now There is eight but since Sarah just died I guess the number went down to seven Yeah, that would follow But yeah short answer or no although recently I mean I like stuff like Edgar Allan Poe and I really like Lovecraft and stuff like that. That like just- What's that?

Lovecraft. What is that? H.P. Lovecraft, the American horror gothic author. I don't know. It's like Cthulhu, the squid thing. Okay, don't know it. No? Well it's like just a,

what's the, it's like a cosmic horror is the idea. Okay. So it's like Cthulhu the story as they go They follow this like archaeological trail Yeah And then they take a boat and they go to this island that like you look at it and there's like shapes that don't make sense then the Cthulhu comes out of the water and like just instantly like Everybody else on the boat just like dies except for the writer of the book just stuff like that

That's like you're having stories or they are short stories. Okay. Okay also, I the Stuff like that. That's like your stories or they stories, okay, okay also I What's his name Berkowitz the the son of Sam? Yeah, it was his he said that His neighbors black Labrador a demon spoke to him. Yeah, dude. There it is so it turns out that story you wrote Matt is actually just a ripoff history So it turns out that story you wrote matters actually just. I rip off. History. This is so fun. You know, you asked earlier if I find it hard to do this podcast and I noticed something in my body when I'm interviewing somebody and you start speaking.

I relax and I don't but I didn't notice that I was tense before that. So it's clearly the case that I'm not having a conversation now I feel like I am a shoot everything's gone to part of this one by like, you know, like in most conversations I'm like trying to make it go and trying not to as soon as you talk. I'm like, oh thank God I should just like so that's interesting. I've got a good pressure making something look natural Well see it's so nice because I know you and I love you and I've enjoyed. You're a great conversationalist. And so that helps to that's huge.

I would rather have someone who's a great conversationalist than someone's like the top of their field. It's something you can't talk very. Yeah. All right. I want to share something with you in a sec. So see if you can come with some padding while I look for it. Yeah. Nice.

Do you like horror? Great question. I don it. Yeah. Nice. Do you like horror? Great question. I don't, I don't, I, I think I have a very active imagination and it does not take much for things to sort of disturb me. And so I try to see her clear, unless it's sort of sensation, like a quiet place. I really liked a quiet place. these things that clearly aren't real but but the kind of horror that could be real so like serial killers and That clowns

Sort of think clowns are just kind of that. I am a grown man, and if I watched it tonight. I would not sleep for Days, I just can't do Do you have any like? Therapist analysis of why specific things you think people find scary. Yeah, I don't I mean, I think I Do you think there's something about the horror or scary genre I think some people I Think for some people like life I think for some people like life is sort of baseline a little bit dull and that the horror scare genre like just captures their attention a little bit. Yeah.

In ways that like, you know, colors are a little muted. Honestly, it's the same thing with pornography. Yeah. Yeah. No, you said yeah too soon. I said pornography after you went, yeah, yeah. You had no idea it was about the drop. I always do a triple yeah.

Somebody pointed that out on the list. Yeah, yeah, no. No, but I mean, that's what pornography does it captures all of your attention, which is Probably why don't you think and I'm sure there's a I'm not saying put I'm saying pornography is evil I'm not saying that horror always is but I do think there's something so Just kind of reaches into and fear does that discuss does that it't. It's not something you sit back and contemplate. No dispassionately. It's yeah, it's visceral. It gives you a visceral reaction

and that can really get people's attention. Attention follows emotion often. That's interesting. All right. So now that we've read a bunch of crap, two line stories, let me read you a paragraph of this story that I wrote.

This is yours. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel good. We didn't just read Dostoevsky. We read that. Right. So I'm reading halfway down through the horror story. See what you think. It's going to be hard. When I was when I was 10, my little sister Sandra, who had recently died in a farming accident, fell out of the sky. Her body. I'm having this like, really? What is okay. Chuck, I feel like we're in an alternate universe here. Okay, you're reading me one of your horror stories. Yeah

In the middle you're just dropping in the middle here. Yeah, okay, cuz I want to bore you I mean could read the whole thing to you, but it would bore everybody Okay, so Sandra dies in the farm. Yeah, we don't know what it is. Yes. That's right I've got a phone line. We had buried we had just buried her that morning But a few hours later there she was broken and mangled on the little table we had set up with cakes and coffee for the funeral reception. I remember our relatives and friends absolutely besides themselves, screaming and crying out.

A few fainted. Some still be in bewilderment, scanning the sky to see where she could have fallen from. My dad and I and a few of his friends gathered up Sandra's body in a tablecloth and laid her laid it in the back of my father's truck to take her back to the cemetery. When we arrived at the burial site we found what looked like a bomb crater. Poking through the dirt we discovered that the lid of the coffin had shattered into a thousand pieces. Dad said it was like someone had buried dynamite underneath and then hit the detonator. We smoothed out the gravesite and reburied Sandra then and there, wrapped up in the tablecloth. I don't remember much else, just that no one said anything, as if it would be irreverent

or disrespectful, so I didn't either. The next morning, Sandra fell out of the sky again. Classic Sandra. Classic Sandra. This time she hit the mailman, John Adams, who was on his morning rounds. She landed on him at such a speed that he also died. A few of us got together to bury them, yada yada. We dug up a different hole in the cemetery, thinking it was some seismic activity

that was causing the ground to spurt them out, but then they both started falling out of the sky. Sandra and John, no matter how many times we reburied them, and so what happens, right, is their bodies start breaking apart and killing everybody in the town. But then if you bury every so you have this problem of compounding. Listen if you start burying more people more bodies are falling more people are going to die eventually. So here's how that here's how it starts. Here's how the story starts.

My name is Daniel Price. I run the only nursery here in Birdsville. That makes me pretty special compared to other plant sellers around the world. You see, Birdsville is a desert town where very little grows above ground. If you search for us online, you will find out why our houses, churches and supermarkets are all underground. You'll read about our extreme summer temperatures and the lack of rain, but it wasn't the heat that first sent us underground. It was syndrome! But yours funny is I pay a red blooded American to read these stories because nothing's scary

about this. Right? Now what happened was. Oh, you have somebody. Yeah. In fact, I talked about two horror hodcasts. I talked about two horror podcasts today, Knifepoint Horror and Sibling Horror. I write Sibling Horror with my sister.

The guy who narrates and writes for Knifepoint Horror also reads for my podcast. I think his horror with my sister. The guy who narrates and writes for knife point horror also reads for my podcast. I think his voice is so great. He reads it. Here's let's just wrap this up and try to remove people from the horror genre. No one's remained if they are offended, I'm sure at this point, but the reason I do it is it's nice to do something that you're not great at and that be okay. Yeah. It's nice to have a hobby that you do because it brings you joy. Yes. Even though you're not great at and that be okay. Yeah. It's nice to have a hobby that you do because it brings you joy. Yes. Even though you're not great at it.

No, I think when you were a kid you did stuff. You didn't have to be the best one out there. It's like that. It's like that. You're sinned from the perfectionism and that. Yeah. This is, it is good for people to have that and to appreciate that and to do that. Right.

So your new book, which is not a horror story. We want to talk about horror. The horror of our wounds. Right. Yeah. There's a link is not a horror story, is out. The horror of our wounds. Right. Yeah. There's a link in the description. People can click it, buy it. Six steps to help you heal from life's hurts.

That's awesome. Try to make it manageable. But, this has been fun, man. Yeah, this has been terrific. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope this fills the gap in your August tech fast. Yeah. The poor.

Well, it's funny. I mean, I originally did this was so that you could, because I thought the book wouldn't be out yet. Yeah. Yeah. But it happened to, it just so happened. Maybe I'll release it during the month of hunting. I think it's going to be great. And it's photos of me holding an elephant hair,

lion testicles. Therapist says big game hunting is what really helps humans thrive. Remember when that thing went viral recently? Not recently, a few years, five, six, seven years back, the dentist guy killed a lion. There's one too with a woman who, yeah, I forget, a big game hunter. She was a female. She had killed maybe an elephant and people went crazy on that too. That's fair enough. I mean, they're endangered, beautiful animals.

Oh yeah. I think it was, yeah, I'm not sure. You can, I think you can hunt elephant on certain preserves. I think, I think again, can I be honest? Dude, I need your help. You need a Neil. I need a Neil. You can ask him to come help you with yourself. Yeah. I, he does. My podcast currently has, yeah. I'm dude, I'm up to ask Catholic therapists. I'm up to like 10 or 12 videos. Nice. Ask a Catholic therapist. You can't hunt elephants. Yeah. You shouldn't. It says in parentheses, but you get it.

Theoretically it's, it's possible, but I need a Neil. Um, I recorded two videos last night Listen to them my microphone was like oh, I need a new word so bad is frustrating And then I say things and I'm like is that right did I just say something? That's yeah if I could have Neil Just googling behind me He can't keep up with the amount of false hoods Shaken back there like talk to you by a dog. He just't keep up with the amount of falsehoods I spit out. But it's not his fault. You're just shaking it back there. I was like, talk to you by a dog.

He just made that up. I'm already talking about horrors. I've been pretty close on most of the things I've said. No, you've been pretty close. It's all been spot on. I don't think there's anything. I do think, though, like, it's a newer way of communicating this live, free-flowing, casual conversation.

Like, when did that exist 20 years ago? Where could people in large numbers come and listen to two people actually just chat, as opposed to this is a 15 minute segment, two minute segment, and you're the expert and you've done your research, you get on, you say your thing. So I do think people realize that when you're in that kind

of back and forth, that you cannot expect precision or accuracy all the time. Yeah. No, I would hope they would. I would hope they would. I think I think some people, if you read comment sections, some people seem to think that you should have like sort of encyclopedic knowledge of all things at all times or you shouldn't speak, which is like the other thing people did though is they would, they would be highly edited things.

Yeah. Like, and I'm sure you're like me, people don't like edited things. They just want to see it raw. It feels more human. It feels more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I'm actually always afraid to do. One of the reasons I'm afraid to do recordings with people that aren't live is that I'm afraid that they'll say something like, sorry, can we do that again? And I don't want them to have that freedom. So if it's live, they can't do that. They just have to press on. Yeah. And that's when people are at their best anyway, when they just say whatever they want, not when they're heavily guarded and trying to say everything

perfectly. I think it's right, dude, that is freedom and, and how we spend so much time reacting to hurts. I would like that word, that single word freedom has been, I've been obsessed with it and it's been, and it's what guided, I think, the book and the, we spend so much time being guarded and afraid and not, that we don't have the freedom that Christ wants us to have. I think it's Colossians, 1st Colossians 5.13.

St. Paul says, you are called to freedom brothers and sisters. What he acts? He feels like mm mm mm mm mm. You are called to be free, but do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh, rather serve one another humbly in love. Yeah, Galatians 513.

Dude. Oh yeah, the first part's all about freedom. Full disclosure, I knew that off because it's so heavily used in the book this one Another horror one mother. Hello. I am looking for a friendly clown for my son's birthday Are you one of those murder clown? Yeah? Dude but John I mean clowns are clowns you can't joke about clown. Why are they so scary? I don't know but John Wayne Gacy

The famous serial killer that beautiful was a clown dude. He was like at like kids party. That's horrifying Have you heard that song by Sufjan Stevens about John Wayne? John Wayne? So good, isn't it? Oh my god On his best behavior. I'm really just like him. Yeah, look underneath the floorboards. See the secrets I have hid Oh guys, you are I know one Sufjan Stevens song and it's um It's like his version of like how great the father's love or something it's like a really nice little Christian he does like a How great thou art it's anyways a little Christian song you guys are in like the deep dark desires of his heart This is interesting you were the child a lot in your podcast to do it you were a lot of black Yeah, the child cried as creepy Joe entered the room He's jaw unhinged and his fangs grew as he smelled the child's fear. This one's political

And his fangs grew as he smelled the child's fear. This one's political And now that I'm getting how these work the Ikea incident I decided to go on a tour of the Ikea factory little did I know that I would find the creature that lays the Ikea Meatballs, dude. What if how about this one? What if here's a story you go to the Ikea factory and You find out that the meatballs Are really this is this whole thing is getting me into a dark place. The meatballs are actually people That's actually been inappropriate for like turns. Yeah This is darker than i'd like It's people who have returned the furniture like bro. Hey real quick. Would you just come back here with your broken furniture?

I'm not good at this dad. It's time for you to open your Christmas presents I said jokingly my smile turned to horror as his urn levitated and flew towards the tree Dude I can't... This one's really good. One day I was walking down the street and someone started the chase me. He said I want to kidnap you That's I actually think that's horrifying that a kidnap is horrifying. That is so funny All right, I want to find that really horrific one so I can read it to him after instead of not Oh, yeah, dude that one it that will actually what if I've been looking up that this stuff pops up? Nothing good Apparently not the algorithm has your number buddy

Dr. Bruin, Georgia, are you familiar with the idea of parasocial relationships? Like between kind of any kind of celebrity personality and people who kind of imagining they have relationships? No. What is this? It's called parasocial relationships. I don't know if you're familiar with it. How does it work? So there's a celebrity? Just essentially, you know, if there's people listening to a podcast or something like that, then they Begin to have this kind of attachment to that person and have it like imagined Like relationship with them. Yeah, which is imagined to be two-dimensionals where it's really just one-dimensional. Yeah

Which I think isn't necessarily Inherently unhealthy as long as it's acknowledged that it's one-dimensional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the idea is that Yeah, that's interesting. I mean Does it only have to be celebrity because I mean we do something like you can do this with Friends or loved ones who are sort of lost or gone lost who you have lost I'm a repast or kind of keep some sort of image of them alive in your mind that you... I wonder if it... Is that with anybody? So is the issue just being in relation, sort of an imagined relation between you and anyone or does it have to be sort of a celebrity or somebody you don't know well? People do this when they're estranged from their parents probably.

Yeah, I can see that. Is that the word of lying? I've only heard it specifically like coming from the conversation of celebrities talking about not knowing how to interact with people who like talk to them as if they know them. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, this is an interesting thing how many people on your who watch your show? Start to feel like they know you pretty well. I mean you do we're talking about things You're interested and you mentioned your kids you mentioned your wife

They do feel like they're getting an insight and they are yeah, and I wonder how much What's so strange about it is like if someone watches this regularly? They probably know more about me than they know about most people in their lives Because most of the people they know in their lives We don't speak this openly about what's going on with them. Yeah, it would be imprudent for them, too It might be imprudent for me to hear I don't know but yeah, so it is a bit strange It is you meet people I always try to Because I should they interact with you if they meet you though then that's an interesting question

How since they know so much about you and since Yeah, it is so weird. If it's been freely given, what should they, Yeah, that's a good one. How's Cameron doing? Yeah, and why shouldn't they? Like it would be almost weirder if they pretended not to know anything.

What is your wife's name again? Yeah, yeah. We talk about her all the time on the show. We would marry, it's good, good. Yeah, yeah, that would's name again? Like yeah Yeah, that would be say yeah There's a weird sort of yeah this medium gives it looks like the term specifically came from like the introduction of mass media Yeah, and it was originally just like any interaction with mass media by an individual. So I think it's specifically that interesting with mass media by an individual. So I think it's specifically that. Interesting.

But yeah, it's like recently, not super recently, but there was like a therapist who was going and talking to all the Twitch streamers and doing like a kind of public therapy session with them. And that came up a lot was these parasocial relationships. Anyway. What do you think it is too, to Twitch is, I'm just become familiar with some of this stuff, that we will pay to watch people play games. What is it though? Right, because it's not always people that are better than you, is it?

I mean, are the people on Twitch always better at the game than you? No. I imagine if they're a successful Twitcher. Is that what they call it? Well, it depends on the game. There's like skill-based games where you watch it to kind of appreciate and be entertained

by how good these people are. Like watching sports, you wouldn't want to watch people who are bad at sports. But then there's other things like story-based games where you would play it to kind of experience and be part of the story, but you can also get most of that benefit out of it. And then an added layer of there's this personality

who you get to see how they interact with this game and the social elements of this story-based decision kind of game. So that's it. and then there's also another level of people kind of reacting to different things like a poorly made game Maybe they react to it. Yeah, it's funnier because they're like putting things into it or interacting with other people through the game. Yeah That is fast. That's actually kind of fascinating to me that we sort of this voyeurism that we to me that we sort of this voyeurism that we instead of interacting purely with the thing ourself or somebody like with us watching it, we're like, we like to watch others. I was talking to Bishop Scott McCabe the other day and he said that he was referring to some

sort of socialistic or not socialistic, but some social study. Maybe we're talking about Pittsburgh. I forget where he said it used to be the case that parents at the end of the night would all go sit out in their front porch because it was hot. And the kids would all play on the street and they let the fire hydrant go and everyone kind of knew each other. And he said two things change that. And I'm sure we could go back in time and say that there was more, but air conditioning and TV, right? We all kind of went in and that then that community died. Right. And you think that makes sense to me.

Like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can totally see how that happens. I have no question with it. But then you think, God, technology is running so fast now that what has Twitter done to us? What has YouTube done to us? What is gaming sites done to us? We don't even we have no space to even see, but it can't be good.

It's really hard. You know, there's a community down in Austin, Texas, this guy, forget his name, we started something called Community First. And it's to address the homeless problem, homelessness problem. And so basically the federal government has a program called Housing First,

which is a model for housing the homeless. And the idea is you give people sort of a home, no strings attached. So if you're without a home or shelter, you get a home, no strings attached. You don't have to be sober, you don't have to be... Right? And so what they found is that Housing First, if you give people homes, they tend to keep the homes, which is fine. But you don't see reduction, not consistently or reliably, in drug use, alcohol use, mental health issues,

or employment, but they tend to keep their house. So this guy thought, well, look, that's interesting, but also problematic because, yeah, sure, they're homeless, they stay in their house, but they're not flourishing. So he started a community in Austin called Community First! So Housing First is the federal government's program. His is called Community First exclamation point. So Housing First is the federal government's program. His is called Community First exclamation point,

which I always thought was sort of like a middle finger to Housing First, you know? But his idea was we don't just need homes, we need community. So he bought this land in Austin. I know of this. Do you know of this? Yeah, yeah.

Ever heard of a guy called Aaron Barta? Yes, Aaron Barta lived there. He went down there, yeah. So my buddy Kevin Stewart married Deanne Barta, Aaron's sister, and they were, they moved there. And so I got familiar with the community through my friend Kevin and we're doing a little, we're collecting some data on some of the folks down there as part of a study. But part of what this guy's point was, was he manicured the sort of community and part of what he took away was backyards

because he thought backyards let you isolate. So everything had front yards and it was sort of manicured. Love it. Or manufactured to sort of create community or interaction so that you had to bump into people. You couldn't just pull back completely. Now you had a home and people need privacy and they need time to recharge,

but like you had to bump in, you had had to and they have this beautiful sort of pillar in the middle of the community where the Homeless who die can be buried Their ashes can be laid. Well so that they still have a community even in death at the heart of that Yeah, how's that community going? I mean last I checked it was going well I mean, I think he was actually trying to buy money, not buy money, raise money to buy money. I want to buy some money. Yeah. To develop another site to expand. And so. But yeah, this idea of community and the things that sort of pull at community

and anyway, yeah, that's sort of interesting yeah I'm glad I live in Steubenville for that reason yeah but look people thought some people find community in these gaming I guess right in these gaming communities and these online area there's something to that it's not for nothing there's something to it I think in the way that it's something for a poor person to find something to eat from the trash it's like it's not nothing yeah but it's Not the fullness, yeah. There's something that worries me about things that aren't real Yeah, so looking it up there was a phase two where they had an additional 24 acres What was his name? What's this guy's name?

Forget his name. He wears a huge cross. So he wears PFG shirts like this Forget his name. He wears a huge cross. So he wears PFG shirts like this White PFG shirts, and he has a huge sand on me on a cross around his neck at all times Franciscans love yeah Alan Graham Alan Graham Yeah, that's right, and there's Amber Fogarty. Don't know her Yeah, Alan Well Where are we at time wise now?

We are at 2.57, so we got three minutes. We got three minutes. We got three hours more. We gotta wait. We don't have to wait. We're like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess we'll ride this one out with something. Let's land the plane. It's been coming down for about 20 minutes now. Was that it? So who told me recently, somebody told me recently I didn't know how to land the plane. They're like, Matt, you just gotta land the plane. It's been it's been coming down for 20 minutes now. Was that a second told me recently, somebody told me recently I didn't know how to land the plane. They're like, Matt, you just got to land the plane. Now, this has been great. Now we can wrap up.

Thank you so much for being here. It's been awesome. We'll put links to Matt's podcast and new book below. Go check him out. Subscribe. Thanks for having me. We'll do it again. Nils like reluctant to close. Yeah, don't close it out. I think.