Pints With Aquinas - Freedom After a Homosexual Lifestyle w/ Kim Zember

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

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Don't ask any more questions. Just rely. So you had a boy in a headlock was a boy. It was a boy Okay, it was a boy. I was a McDonald's. I was probably like six. I don't know like 38. Yeah, it was last month Two in a two in a headlock no had him in a headlock I guess he cut in front of me and I just started to choke him out I grew up with two brothers. So that's what you do I mean you fight and so yeah held him in and he knew like I don't I believe to this day He probably will never ever cut someone in line Like who drops someone to their knees at the bounce house and McDonald's while you're waiting for your

Masculated at such a young age. Where is he now? Never met him again. I think he fled big he fled. That's amazing. Yeah, I've heard that if two fellas get into a fight The best thing you could do is just immediately slap him across the face. The idea is that he'd be so shocked that he's just being slapped in front of his friends.

You might have a moment that he just freezes because he just got slapped, which is probably pretty humiliating too. Yeah. I would say a slap. Did you get in fights as a kid? No. Oh, I mean, I threw I was I was more of a verbal fighter Okay, I think I knew I didn't have like the Stanema to like stand up physically to someone but I had a mouth like no other

So that thing was sharp. That's how you grow up California nice San Diego born and raised in Long Beach but raised in San Diego. So Wow. Yeah, that's how San Diego born and raised in Long Beach, but raised in San Diego. So wow. Yeah. That's how San Diego used to live there. I used to work for Catholic answers there. Oh yeah. You ever heard of them? Yeah. Yeah. Been on a few times.

El Cajon, I think. El Cajon. Or Santee. I think it is El Cajon. I was like far North. So like almost not San Diego, cause my parents, they moved from Long Beach and they didn't want to grow up and have us all grow up in the city. So they brought us to Fallbrook.

I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah, nobody knows about it. It's this hidden gem. It's actually called a village. So that's weird. I grew up in a friendly village is what it's known as. And so, yeah, now living in Georgia. Do you live? Oh, you live in Georgia. Yeah.

Where? ATL. Can you say where or is that? I just somewhere in the state. Yeah, I'm right here. I'm actually near the International House of Prayer, Atlanta. So it's in Lawrenceville. Okay. So, yeah, now a lot of people show up in my house. It was I hope an International House of Pancakes.

So the International House of Prayer was that based off I hope the pancake. Did they go? What if we took those were those letters? Well, and tried to be. I think it was very smart because every time I'm like, oh yeah, I hope they're like, oh, I know the place. I'm like, no, you know the pancake place. You don't know the place. Also, this is 24 seven House of Prayer. It's amazing. Do they give pancakes out there to people? Yeah, Mondays and Wednesdays.

See? Never. Never. Never? Never. Never. I've never seen one. I can just see unsuspecting victims coming in for a pancake. Right. Right over. Well, thank God they don't really advertise.

They might get sued too if they did advertise like IHOP. But it's like IHOP and it's got like a little flame, like a Holy Spirit flame of fire over the eye. It's amazing. I used to live in Cumming, Georgia. Yeah. Not too far. Just north of Atlanta.

Yeah. I loved it. I love Georgia. I love it. You know, I'm not used to the like humid stuff. Yeah. That's weird to me, but I love the people. I love it. Yeah. The bugs. I like ocean. Yeah. Actually, I hate Georgia. I hate it so much. I actually found out about Florida, which I had no grid for because in San Diego,

you go to the beach like four minutes away. Well, now I drive five hours away, but the beach that I roll up to is insane. I mean, that water, the sand in Florida, you're saying? Yeah, it's lovely. Destin. Yeah. Cool. It's gorgeous. Yeah. White sand beaches. You know what shocked me is I went to Alabama beaches in Alabama, Alabama shores or something. It's a Florida where Alabama meets. Okay.

Some water there. And I, well, I loved it. I was like, this is like San Diego. It was... I dated a girl from there. Okay. So thanks for bringing that up. Right out the gate.

From Alabama or from? Yep. I won't reveal names, but yeah. It was actually one of long-term girlfriend that I like actually first Open and out girl. I was with this from Alabama. Well, you can't just throw that into our fun banter without us getting into it So you do it. Okay. Yeah, so you were raised I heard you were raised. I don't know much about you Yeah, you know, I like you. You're just so cool and likeable

So that these are my favorite interviews to do when I actually don't have to pretend to have questions that I want to know about, like actually want to know about it. You'll have a lot. So you were raised, I heard you say that you were raised in a Catholic family and that your folks were OG Charismatics. OG Charismatics. Love them. It's so crazy because people are like, oh, you must, people don't believe I'm Catholic.

They're like, oh, wait, no, you're charismatic Catholic. I'm like, that's like saying I'm a white Caucasian. Like I pray to God that all of us Christians are charismatic. Doesn't mean it looks the same, right? But hopefully we're carrying around the charisms of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

So in that, but yeah, fully raised Catholic. I would say like I went through the whole thing of my parents were like in love with Jesus, but for me I was like, okay I'll just kind of get some of what they got But I didn't have the relationship they had there's to me, you know We never want to judge someone's relationship, but to me they had a real and authentic relationship I came to know so I came into the Catholic circle and Really came to know God when I was in third grade.

My parents had a radical encounter with the Lord separately. We're like, whoa, we're going to actually press in. And so they put all of us kids in private Catholic school. So I'm like, great. Glad you met Jesus. And now I'm at a dumb school. You know, so we have to wear the same thing every day. What were you doing?

Did you say what you're doing before that school? I don't remember. I was just in elementary choking kids out. So I was in a public school. Yeah, I was at a public school. But when they, when they actually encountered Christ is when they were like, no, we want this to be a family affair. And so they put my older brother was in high school. So I think he's still a little bitter about that. All boys school, all saints, uh, other brother came with me. He's older than me as well,

but we went to the same school. And so when I, like, I kind of missed out on the kindergarten through second grade, like Jesus loves you, you know, God is good, he's a father. I came in in third grade where they're like, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that, and do all these things. So like a whole list of do's, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that, and do all these things.

So like a whole list of do's, don'ts. So really my intro from what I remember to God is don't do a lot of stuff and do a lot of stuff. And that's a super scary foundation to build on. It's possible, but not ideal. And so, you know, though I could see my parents operating differently and super high achieving family, kind of naturally, you know, just successful family,

stay at home mom. And so a lot of correction, a lot of redirection, like morally from my mom and then on my dad's side, it was a lot of like, we could do better, you could take over the world. I remember when I was a kid, my dad's like, if you wanna be president, you can be. I was like president of the school, he's like,

uh-uh, president of the world, or world, well, that's it. We don't have that yet. That was one world thing. Yeah, no, please go. We're not gonna go there. But yeah, so just in that, like instilled this fight for you can do anything, not a lot of you can do anything with God, you know, but just a lot of like,

it's within you type things. So, yeah. And so when did you realize you had same sex attraction? Honestly, since I was young, I remember never liking the guys like the other girls did. Like I literally saw guys as my friends, whether that's because I was, I had two brothers or whether it was because the attraction just wasn't there. I'm not really sure. But I just know I didn't feel the same way all my little friends did.

And honestly, most of my friends were guys. That's who I got along with. I was on the kickball field. I was running around with them because that's what I did at home with my brothers. And so for me, I actually remember when I was in preschool, it's a really kind of interesting memory, but I just wanted my female teacher's attention.

Like I just was longing, it wasn't a sexualized thing. It was like, see me, see me, see me. I wanted to, I think we were making these little things like, you know, you had to sculpt like a snowman or something and mine was probably the worst one. But I just remember wanting to make it good to impress her so that she would see me and always wanted to be hugged by her. And so I even remember later in life, I'm like, oh my gosh,

I think I was attracted to her. But what I'm actually starting to realize now is like, there was things that my mom actually just wasn't capable of giving her, didn't even know how, that I was longing for in other women. So even as a little preschooler, like just hug me. You know, I remember having. I think I remember having kind of sexual thoughts at a very young age.

I don't know how normal that is, but I remember feeling towards my preschool teacher, something not sexual, but something maybe developing there. I just I should do this thing where they were like they would draw letters on your back and you had to guess them. And I was in heaven. I still love that game, by the way. Oh, I know. Right. I love that. But that's funny, because it's like, I wonder if, you know, it's hard to pass out, isn't it?

Like, was that the budding of something sexual or was that just for a longing for feminine attention? So I wonder. Yeah, I don't know. And I think it probably is a little different. You know, I know there's many people who study all this, right? And then it seems to change every other year. But in that, I think there's a difference probably between guys and girls. I remember my brother growing up, he said everything was sexualized for him, like as

a young kid. So I don't really remember that. I remember later in life, like going into like third grade when stuff like that started to happen and Things seemed to start being sexualized. But when I was little I I really do feel like I just wanted her attention Yeah, you know Um, but then in high school is where I was like, okay You can kind of play off this like i'm friends with guys, you know Yeah, you know for a good amount of time people call me a tomboy. Totally don't understand that.

I'm like, I've never met a girl named Tom. So I don't understand this phrase like she's a tomboy. I'm like, boys are Tom. It doesn't make sense to me, but I was kind of called that. But I did. I was never like I was never bullied. Because what's funny is I think my wife and you would probably have been similar girls because my wife would say that she's a tomboy. I don't know how you feel about that term.

But I just think it's a weird term, but I get what people mean. I don't understand. She would say she was only friends with boys. But I don't think for her it was ever developed into sexual relations to women or sexual attraction to women. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I and I think there's many girls who have been called or would say they're more

tomboyish. They're just not as maybe feminine, you know, on the outside as a lot of women are. But thank God we know that what makes a woman is not just what you wear or what you play or what you don't play, you know. It's actually the heart of me and the way that God's designed. But in that, I've met many girls who I would have thought, I'd be like, whoa, okay, that girl probably is into girls.

Right, like she's into chicks and they're not, you know, so found that out the hard way. But in that, that's a little uncomfortable in those early years. So, but yeah, I mean, it doesn't, it's not always an indicator, right? Which the world like now, I mean, honestly rewind. Yeah. When I was a kid growing up, you know, my jeans, I remember once my mom actually went to Medjugorje and she left us kids with my dad and she said, just make sure Kim wears a dress right on. He's like my award.

I got like a participation award. Right. And my dad's like comes in my room that morning. He's like, you wear whatever you want. I put on my little Mickey Mouse jeans, a white t-shirt and a hat. Right. And so my mother was mortified when she got pissed, like just off the hinge. Not like crazy, but she's like, I told her, I told you to have her wear a dress. And he's like, she didn't want to. It's OK. You know, it's a participation award.

She's not, you know, the first lady. And so in that, I just I feel like now now like let's go to where we are now if I were a kid now People would probably be like trying to convince me like you're probably a boy then Like you might be born in the wrong body And I'm I say that sensitive because I know a lot of people struggle with that I know many people who I actually am friends with who struggle and so I'm not lightning the reality of that But I'm just thankful that when I was a kid Yeah, that wasn't the the morale around me this like heightened

Well, if you don't feel like everything that looks like a girl, then you must be a boy Because I don't struggle with my identity as a female I recognize that I'm maybe as not feminine on the exterior as a lot of women are, but that makes me no less of a girl. Right? And I do. I can throw a football probably more than you. Probably. Right?

Further than you. But in that, that doesn't mean- We're gonna have to film that first. We have to find a football and we are gonna do this. He said it. So first time I ever threw a football. I'm not gonna get off the topic entirely, but- I found where Tom boy comes from by the

way. Oh, in light. See the big books. Small books, medium sized books. So originally it was in the 1500s. It was used term used for male children who were rude and boisterous. And in the 1950s, it was the, by the 1590s, sorry, I read the numbers backwards.

It came to be a- We've got 500 years to go, so buckle up. Right. Good girl. What happened in 1961? Two hours later. By the 1590s, it was shifted towards a, wild romping girl who acts like a spirited boy

Rumping girl, okay. Well, maybe now I'm a little offended by the title I wasn't before you so kindly read us the history, but yeah, whatever that all means but I like in that for real though I'm like, whoa rewind. Yeah, I would have been for sure probably confused. But as an adult, I'm not confused. Oh yeah, but Kim, you dated women, okay. But that doesn't mean that I think I'm a boy, right? Like there's just something there that I'm like, y'all, we need to just slow down. Like let's just pump the brakes.

We have feelings, we have desires, they're real. Don't pretend like you don't have them because they will create enemies within. Like let's not do that. I did that, don't do that. Don't pretend like it doesn't exist. Deal with it. Talk about it. Be open. But like, can we not let our feelings run us and define us? That's where I feel like we're losing it. We really are. And we don't even have a grasp grab like a grasp on things because it's so feelings and desire driven And we I feel like in a way we've almost lost Common sense and thought right like yeah

And we think it's been given desires don't ignore either of them. Can we hold both right? Um sexually so Interesting isn't it? I mean, I think I was exposed to pornography before I even had full fledged realizations that I was sexually attracted to girls. I was eight years old. Oh, wow. Back of a relative's house playing around, loving life. Yeah. Yeah. And that just sort of entered into my life and subverted. Yep. Did you, were you exposed to stuff? I don't know how to actually, whoa, yes.

Um, I don't talk about this much. I've shared it with like friends when I was I think in third or fourth grade We're all we had like a slumber party with all our friends super just whatever no sexual stuff but we're all laying in my friend's living room and We were flipping through the channels. It was late and Pornography came on and that was the first time I had ever seen anything like that. And it was really strange. It was actually a grown woman with a little person. And so I just remember being really disturbed

and didn't wanna see what I had seen and just wanted it to go away. So for me, that's what I remember, but never found pornography in the house. My dad didn't struggle with it by the grace of God. And it was never something I struggled with. See, it wasn't just a sexual drive for me. I wanted connection.

I wanted emotional connection. I honestly think it goes back to like scripture. Jesus or God, right, is walking with Adam. He says, it's not good that man be alone, right? And so for me, I just, I wanted someone to do life with. Like just because I don't have an attraction to men doesn't take away the desire to wanna do life with someone, to have a partner, a helpmate, and be a helpmate too.

You know, so I think that can get really twisted along and for sure it got sexualized for me very quickly, or allowed it to be sexualized very quickly, but it didn't start that way. So yeah, so what was the progression then from having those kind of feelings of wanting attention and affection from a teacher in an appropriate way to realizing that you didn't talk about boys the way your friends did? How does that, how does it develop? What does that look like? It's actually interesting. I remember, like I said, this teacher, right, wanting attention. And then I remember in like my middle school ages, like really wanting a best friend. Like why can't I just have someone that is like mine? Now that sounds super possessive, but

I'm just going to be honest. Like I wanted someone that I knew wouldn't leave me. And that like I could just have like the security and friendship. You know, I saw a lot of my friends having sisters. I didn't have sisters. My brothers had each other. And like, yeah, I was their little sister, but I didn't have that bond.

Like I saw a lot of other families having. And so for me, I was, it went to like a longing for like this bond that I didn't have. And so I me, I was, it went to like a longing for like this bond that I didn't have. And so I tried to have it in friendship and not like, like I said, through middle school, junior high, that was it. And then into high school is when it was like, okay, I want that bond. But now there's something else that's missing. I dated guys, like I found men attractive. So that's the thing. I'm not repulsed by men. In my experience, I never had any sexual abuse, any physical abuse.

Mason- That's so important to say because I used to speak a lot on the topic of pornography. And we come up with these simple narratives to make the world easier for us. So we'd say things like, well, if a woman's with pornography, maybe she's experienced some abuse. It's kind of like they don't have to think about this anymore. It's like a thought terminating statement. Yeah. So that's good to know. It is the case for some. It is. And I know many, right? And that breaks my heart. But the reality is that what that wasn't a reality for me. And so I just say that because I think a lot of people, like you said, tend to go to that. And so for me, I wasn't repulsed

by men. I really enjoyed them. Like I said, even in high school, most of my friends were guys. Now I did start to have friends that were girls because it was more socially acceptable. But they honestly kind of bothered me. I'm like, y'all are so fricking catty. It's so like, I mean, it just felt like

we were competing constantly for looking better, this and that. Now they might not have been, but I felt like I had to. And so it was exhausting. Whereas like with guys, I could just kind of be is what I felt. And so then when it went into high school, like trying to date guys now or when they wanted to date me, I'm like, wait, we're friends. Right? So I did start dating this one guy was attracted to him. I found him attractive. Um, but to me, not in the sense that I found women attractive

or was drawn to them, but I did find them. So I'd be labeled, right, instantly as bisexual, right? I didn't do that to myself. I was just like, what's going on, trying to figure myself out, dated the guy and he instantly wanted to have sex. And so like in my mind, growing up Catholic, I'm like, okay, bro.

Like, and he went to the same church as me too. I'm like, you know it too. Like, this is not good. And really, to the same church as me too. I'm like, you know it too. This is not good. And really, to be honest, I think because that was my first encounter with a guy in that way, is more of a growing into an adult, my teenage years. I think for me, it just kinda like,

okay, if this is all you want, then I'm just not gonna date. And trigger reminds me of when my dad, when I was young, told me, and our words matter, like Satan has that stupid phrase that goes around our world, sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

Words have massive effect. Words we speak over each other, words that are spoken over us. And my dad sat me down when I was a kid, and he said, I wanna tell you about boys, right? And he said, they are dogs, all they want. So this just affirmed it. Your experience with this.

Well, even further, they are dogs and they're dogs in heat. All they want from you is sex. So now keep in mind, I was so young that I didn't correlate. I'm like, I'm playing kickball with these guys. Like it doesn't matter if they're dogs in heat, you know. Now into high school, now I experienced it. So bam, there's Satan goes, right? Like, and I'm not calling my dad Satan,

but those words spoken over men to his little daughter, that took root, right? And then now the first guy I date in high school kind of just seals that in. So I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna keep men as friends. It's safer, like I did when I was little. That's just safer.

So keeping men as friends didn't take away the desire for companionship. I desired that and maybe it would have been for men, but they didn't feel safe to me. And then isn't it crazy that I went to women to fulfill that? So I'm not gonna have premarital sex, but I'm going to be with women. Like, okay, in exchange of sin for sin, right? Like I knew that homosexuality, the act of, right? That was clear that the act of homosexuality was

not God's plan. I believed that too. I really did. But believing something to be true doesn't just instantly take away the desire. You can believe with all your heart that brownies are horrible for you. Do you stop desiring them? So now you take it to deeper feelings. That's just a fricking brownie, right? So now you take it to this longing to be loved, to be seen, to be known, to be desired. And so for me, I was like, what's the big deal if I have a girlfriend, we won't have sex, right? We'll just be each other's. Like I'll find my partner in life cause men aren't safe and this feels safer.

Right. And I don't blame my dad either in this. This is just kind of the way things sometimes happen. This is probably an unfair question to ask just because it might be impossible to answer. But do you think that if your first encounter with that fella was like a noble kind of relationship where he sought to uphold your dignity, that maybe this path, you wouldn't have gone down this path? Or do you think? Possibly. Yeah, possibly. I mean, humans are so complicated. We are. But you know, I don't know if it would have fully taken care of

the desires that I still had within me for some sort of attention from women, but maybe it would have been met in a healthy way through friendship had the other void in my little heart been filled in a healthy way through men. Yeah. So I think, you know, for sure, I don't I don't say that it couldn't be. Who knows? Right. But I think it could be probable that, yeah, had had he loved me well, loved himself well, loved God well, he would have loved me different, you know, and that's a hard age too. So I don't blame him either. I actually still know him and he doesn't seem any different.

God bless him. But you know, so in that, yeah, I think, I think things could have been different for sure. And it was my senior year in high school when I decided to act on the desires. And when I decided- So you said with third grade, you went to this Catholic school, your parents were very Catholic.

Were you in some kind of youth group? Had you made the faith your own? No, no. Remember I came in foundationally, just like you said, there was like a twist in your sexual foundation with pornography. To me, I see a very large running through the foundation, like a crack running through the foundation,

because when I came to know God, I saw him more as a cop or as a judge than a tender, merciful father. I did, and if somebody said God is a tender, merciful father, I've been like, we have different gods. Like, I just didn't have a grid for that. And so, and I'm not blaming my Catholic upbringing, but maybe I missed that whole section, you know,

I feel like I went right into like Leviticus, you know, or whatever and missed the story of love. But even in youth group, you said you were in youth groups? Even then, I feel like there was so much focus on sin. I feel like there was so much. And again, you kind of, you know, maybe it wasn't for others. You filter things. Yeah, and so for know, maybe it wasn't for others. You filter things.

Yeah, and so for me, maybe it was the first thing. My third grade teacher was kind of that old school, I thought she was a nun, because, you know, she just was really intense and not super sweet, you know, which is not nuns at all, like maybe it can be, but that was kind of my- The stereotype. Yeah, yeah, especially like generations ago, you know,

and so she was just very stern. She was not very tender. And so that was my introduction into the faith. And so even when I'd go to youth groups or people would say, I heard all the time, God loves you. His love is unconditional. But to me, I'm like, it's unconditional. Don't do this, don't do that.

Don't do this, don't do that. Do this and you're good. Do this and you're good, do this and you're bad. Then I maybe don't understand the term unconditional, right? And so for me, like growing up, it was like, almost felt, so I just kind of pushed out that, yeah, love is unconditional kind of thing. So for me, I don't feel like it was ever really personalized.

I remember I would shoot like hoops out in my backyard, you know, and I'd be like, okay, God, if I make this, and I was doing like, yeah, probably super demonic, to be honest, but it's not, because it was childish, but I was like, if I make this basket, God, you're real. If I don't do this, just these little things, that was the level of my relationship with God. But it wasn't, I didn't feel unconditionally loved,

not at all. This is gonna be a weird tangent, but kids are so beautiful. I love kids, cause kids are so unguarded. Yep. We just look so innocently, like the world hasn't kicked the shit out of us yet. We're not like jaded in the way we might be now

that we just go open-handed to an adult. Yeah. To seek affirmation. That's why Jesus says says be like the children. I used to, I used to play basketball in my backyard. I used to pretend, you know, like kids should do this. I pretended to get the winning shot. Oh yeah.

You know, but it would be like three, two, one. One. Damn it. One. And still miss. Still miss like eight times until I got it. Then I was the hero, but man, kids are beautiful. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I looked to that like childlike faith that I had, but it kind of stayed at that level and I did, I felt like I was at a distance from God. I didn't feel, well, let me put it this way. When I was alone, I felt like he was close. When I went into church or I was at like things, I felt like I didn't measure up. So I felt like I was put at a distance. Now again, I'm not saying that's what the church taught.

That's how I kind of interpreted it. But when I was like alone in my room or out on the little basketball court, it was like, I remember actually like conversations with God, as maybe strange as that sounds like real. Like I felt like I could hear him. But then when I came in, I felt a lot, like there was freedom, there was freedom.

But when I started to go to like youth groups and things like that, I felt like there was a lot of fear. And so I was just like super afraid of hell. I was super afraid of disappointing them. I was super afraid of not being loved. And so, and keep in mind, here I am with these like inner struggles already, right? In my later years, especially in the high school

when you're doing your confirmation and all that, I just, I just blew through it. I mean, I was not, I was not present. I was there, but I wasn't present. Cause I'm like, to me, all this stuff is like too hard. I'm shocked, honestly, like it's grace. I was baptized as a baby, thank God, because it is really grace that I even stayed in the church.

Because what was going on inside, like there was so much resistance, and like I can't fricking measure up to all that you want me to do, God. I'm surprised I even stayed around. And I really do believe that was grace. So how did you say it was great, your senior year of high school, that you started dating a girl.

Yeah. Yeah. I would probably call it dating. She wouldn't. Um, I had kissed her. Okay. Yeah. And, and honestly, everything changed from that moment. Our friendship for sure was ended. Um, she didn't, did she not reciprocate or she did. Um, but I think she was afraid of it. I think it freaked her out of like, why do I like this girl? You know, neither of us. But like, I didn't want a label. I just wanted to be close with her and I wanted to know I had security in us being together, like this deep longing always to be secure with someone. I'm not saying that that's what God has for us. Like our security ultimately, right, is in him. But when you believe he's just sitting there judging you and like criticizing you.

I love what you're saying because it makes sense. I mean, you grow up, you have friends, but then if you put this label like we are boyfriend, girlfriend, it creates this exclusivity for sure. That makes you feel perhaps safer. And that's the thing you were longing for. I was longing for it. Yeah. It's safety. It's safety in relationship. It's it's actually safety and love. Right. And I was longing to be unconditionally loved.

And let me tell you, if you don't receive that from God, you're going to go seeking it from man, woman, career, society, whatever, because we're created for it. I was created to be unconditionally, radically, extravagantly loved. Yes. And if it ain't going to come from him, I'm going to, I'm going to fill that because it's a longing that he actually gave us. Yeah. Yeah. You'll seek it or you'll try to distract yourself from that. Yeah. Yep. Or you'll manufacture it and it ain't going to be the real deal. And that's what my whole life is.

I wrote a book on it. Restless Heart, my struggle with life and sexuality. It's really a struggle with life. It was a struggle with love, you know, and if the source of love, God himself, is not where I'm receiving it, I went to everything. Everything. Money, career, being known, being seen by the world, being seen by others, right?

Any way that I could, and it's crazy to me that at 38, 37-ish is when I actually really started to realize an encounter that God sees me, He knows me, He loves me. I'm like, and I had to go to a Protestant church to find it out, you know? And again, that's not me slamming the church. I love the church. You'll see him with all the gray hairs at morning mass. Like, I love it. I love the beauty of the Catholic Church.

I believe it is the Lord's. But man, I think we've sometimes veered from some of the teachings. Like we're we stopped teaching the teachings. Yeah. You know, I like to think of it sometimes as OK, if the Catholic Church is a fully fledged gym with workout instructors, right. And then you might think of a Protestant church. I know there's variations, but you might think, OK, there's

some dumbbells over here. I don't mean to be patronizing. I've used that. But if you use the dumbbells, you're going to be in a lot better shape than somebody at this full fledged gym, not doing anything, not doing a darn thing with all the abilities to be like fully integrated in health, but not knowing even what it is. And so to me, you know what I actually said, and we're going to have to go back, but in this, I felt like the Lord put a defibrillator on my heart and

just like jumpstarted me. That was October 17th, 2014. And it's been a journey ever since and it will continue to be. I'm not saying I have this full now awareness of God's love, but my goodness is He refothering me in who He really is. Cause dude, let's be real. If you've got the nature of God off, you're gonna have yourself off and everyone around you. If the nature of God is off,

the nature and character of everything else to me is off. And that's what I've experienced. I've had God so jacked up, which sounds weird, but I really, Satan got his hand in there very quick with me, almost right when I met God and just started to distort because he's a creator of nothing, a perverter and a distorter of everything. And so he came in and let me tell you,

when he gets his hands, and it's what he did in the garden, he distorted the image of God. If he's really good, if he was really good, if he really loved you, why would he not let you have that? So it's the same thing that happened to me. That's my little garden. And I believe it's all of ours.

Because if he can jack up who God the Father is and he can make him bad. Man got a good foothold so. And it's not to blame I don't blame Satan and like oh it was Satan it wasn't me no I I came into agreement with so many lies. That's the that's the word isn't it agreement sort of like with that that you first dated, it was almost like you heard the advice from your dad. It was confirmed and then an agreement was made. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, actually Dr. Bob Schutze talks about it a lot. It's these kind of like lies that we take on his truths

and then the world just keeps sealing him in, sealing him in. I kind of feel like a real relationship with our Lord is going to require some sort of conversion experience regularly. Oh, it ain't a one and done. He ain't a genie. No, this is relational. What's the Lord done in your life this year? You know, what's he done this last month? Yeah. Because he wants to keep working in us. Yeah. Healing us. I ran into a dude at the airport. He stopped me. He's like, when were you saved? I was like, bro.

He's like 24. So I'm like, are you talking about rock crystals or are you talking about Jesus? And he's like, I'm talking about Jesus. I'm like, how do you know I'm saved? And he says, I, like, bro, he's like 24. So I'm like, are you talking about rock crystals or are you talking about Jesus? And he's like, I'm talking about Jesus. I'm like, how do you know I'm saved? And he says, I, yeah, cause I wear it, no, I wasn't wearing any of your gear, right? But I was like, how do you know I'm saved? He's like, I see Jesus in your eyes.

He's like, tell me, I was like this morning. He's like, what do you mean? I said, I was saved this morning. I was saved by grace when I was baptized and continue to be. I said, it is daily, dude. The kid had literally given his life to Jesus five years prior.

He was a heroin addict, all this, at a very young age, gave his life, encountered Jesus, gave his life. He overdosed the night before I met him, and he thought he was done. I had never out of my mouth said, you know, I was saved this morning. And he needed to hear that. Because he had to rededicate his life and return to grace

He thought it was a one-and-done. It ain't a one-and-done. Yeah. No. All right. So at what point did you? Did you kind of fight against that that sexual desire towards women even after you kiss this girl in grade 12? Was it like okay? I'm done with this and now I'm gonna try to be attracted to dudes or no I didn't go that route. I'm like I will so now I'm gonna try to be attracted to dudes or? No, I didn't go that route. I'm like, I will date guys so that I don't have to be questioned. But there was a constant internal war, constant.

When you know something and you believe it to be true, this isn't like, oh, I was just raised with this. This was like, I was raised to make my bed. Go look at my bed, it ain't made right now. Like there were truths, there were things I was taught rather that I rejected. This one, I couldn't reject. And I believe that was grace.

Like I couldn't reject what I innately believed to be true. And honestly, I would say knew to be true. So, but it didn't take the desire away. And I would pray all the time. I'm like, God, take this away. I didn't ask for it. I don't wanna be attracted to women. I want, if you want me married,

then give me that frigging attraction. Do you know what I mean? But I don't want this. And it's crazy because the world says love is give and take. That's BS. Love is not give and take. It's giving and receiving. God doesn't take stuff from us.

He wants a wholehearted or even whatever bit we're willing to surrender and then he'll receive it. And so I was praying, take this, take this, take this, like many people that I know, and it was never taken. It wasn't until I gave it that it was received, and that's a daily thing. And so for me, I fought it. It meant my years of living a hidden life.

I turned into a, it wasn't who I was, but it surely was what I was doing. I was lying, I was cheating, I became someone I did not recognize myself. I felt such a war within, I was tormented, and I don't mean like, I mean like, when you do something that you know is wrong and you continue to do it, and then you make a lifestyle out of it,

I'm telling you, and I didn't have the language for it then, but I felt it. I felt the definition without having the word that I was a slave to sin. I had become a slave to my desires. And I see that when it's pornography, when it's premarital sex, whatever, masturbation, all of this, right?

Now those weren't the struggles I had, but I could recognize this is real and this has consumed me. I've allowed this to consume me. And honestly, it was just living so feelings driven, so desire driven, married a man. I'm going to summarize, but there's a book on it. And that's not to plug a book, all the donations. We've got the link in the description, right? Look at him. He's already on it. He's on it. Yeah. Don't forget to put that other link about Tomboy 2. But in that, like, the book gives all the details.

When did you get married? What year? Oh, don't ask me years. I barely remember my age, so let's not go there. But it was- But this isn't a recent thing? No, no, no, no, no, no. This was, so I was probably,

I moved to Ethiopia when I was 23, started a nonprofit. So then about two years later, I married a guy because I'm like, okay, either, either because I was still dating women. I actually cheated on him while we were dating. I was cheating on him with a woman and ended up telling him because he was seriously the most genuine guy

I've ever met in my life. And he was attractive. I wasn't necessarily attracted to him, but I could recognize just like you could, I mean, my little wiener dog is he was attractive. I wasn't necessarily attracted to him, but I could recognize just like you could, I mean, my little wiener dog's pretty freaking attractive. I don't wanna be with him, right? Like you could recognize beauty and not necessarily be attracted.

And so for me, when, but I was at this crossroad because I'm like, okay, I'm lying, I'm cheating, I'm doing all this stuff. I've got these attractions for women, but I'm not gonna end up marrying a woman. So my options here, and I isolated, I went through this all myself because I didn't feel like I could share with anyone

because I felt like I was gonna get, you know it's wrong, da, da, da, all the things I already knew. Like I don't need to be corrected, I need to be actually loved through this. You don't have to celebrate everything I'm doing, not asking for that either. But what I am asking is can you just bear burden with me please?

Not fix my burdens, just bear them with me. And so for me I just did it all on my own which I don't suggest at all. It was a horrible decision along with many others I made. But in that I was at this crossroads where I'm like okay, either I'm gonna become a nun, crickets. That was not an option. I like that freaked me out more than being single.

I'm like, I, because again, to a God that right, is like a judge and this, I'm gonna just marry him now? Wow, sounds beautiful. Or I'm like a cat woman, right? Like just gonna buy a bunch of cats, I hate cats. God bless, I'm so glad he made him. I'm just not a cat person. And so I'm like, okay woman, right? Like just gonna buy a bunch of cats. I hate cats. God bless, I'm so glad he made him. I'm just not a cat person. And so I'm like, okay, not an option or I get married.

And so when I met this guy, I'm like, there's no one better. He's faithful. He's not like the first guy I dated. He was saving himself from marriage. He honored me. It's just amazing man. He really was.

He really carried the heart of Christ like I'd never met. And so I'm like, if I like, if this is the best option, then this guy's the one. He's old faithful. He's attractive, so I'm not repulsed in any way by his looks, but I didn't wanna be physical with him. Didn't even feel called to have children. Love kids, had a mission in Ethiopia,

helping single parents and their kids. So love children, but didn't feel ever, never envisioned a marriage or what I'd look like on my wedding day or what our kids would be. None of that, zero, like blank screen. And so for me, I was like, well, I'm not gonna end up alone. I'm not gonna be a nun, so I'll get married.

And so I got married about two years after Ethiopia. He did the missions work with me over there. And I kind of brought him into my calling, was not honest. I was honest that I cheated on him. How did that go? Yeah. What was that like for you? That was not good. Before we got married, I was like, if this is real, I need to be real with him and tell him.

Now it wasn't being real with myself of those desires. I was like, they'll eventually go away. I just need to stop feeding them, right? Like it'll just die if you don't feed it. To some degree, yes, in many degrees, no. And so all I did was say, hey, I cheated, da da da. He said, do you like women? Is this something?

And I said, no, no. I mean, it's just something I'm bored of, drink or whatever, you know. And so he let it be, he wasn't gonna drill me on it. When we went through our marriage prep, same thing, didn't bring it up, because I'm like, no, it was dealt with, you know, I already told him, so I'm not being dishonest, you know,

just trying to fit all the boxes, did I do right, you know, not from the heart. And so yeah, it was rough. I was married for a year. And actually the night, the night I got, the night before I got married, I got on my knees, I was by myself. And I said, God, I promise you,

I will never cheat on this man with a woman. Like that is the strangest pre-marital prayer probably ever, God's possibly ever heard. I promised God, I didn't say God help me. I didn't say God, I need your strength. I said, I promise in my own strength, I will never cheat on him with a woman. So clearly not dealt with, right?

And then I got married and I knew, I knew I was like, this isn't fair to him either, but I am so afraid of being alone. Just like it was when I was a kid. The same thing just in an adult body. Our marriage lasted about a year and I cheated on him with a married woman. And that's, I actually, full circle, I left him.

He's like, can we work on this, please? I said, I can't drag you through this anymore. I have so much undelt, you know what? That it's not fair to you. And I don't know that I'm actually even called to marriage. So I need to release you. I'm not a proponent of divorce, but I did not marry him. It says for what God has brought together,

let no man separate. Fear brought me to him, the fear of being alone. And so we actually did get an annulment because I was dishonest entering vows and all of that. And I asked him for forgiveness. I mean, there was a lot, it was a very difficult season, but I was still dating and seeing this girl. Ended up after we split, I was with her and realized,

I thought, I got Catholic council, by the way. I went to Catholic counseling on my own, paid for it. Didn't get sent there, wasn't conversion therapy. And honestly, I went in there and it's shocking to me that that long ago, I was told like, this is who you are. Like you just kind of, now again, that's not verbatim, but what I left there with was you just need to embrace how God made you.

And so long as you're with one woman, I had a priest tell me that, right? Never condone the lying, the cheating, but homosexuality, it's OK. You be you. I'm like, I can't be a Catholic priest. Like this feels like the opposite of bearing your burden. Yeah. So if I'm with you and you're struggling and I love you and care for you, I can see why people would say that not because it's right.

It should be condemned. But to be like, you know what? Just it's like trying to release somebody who's in pain. It would be similar if I was friends with a fella who didn't like his wife and they're always fighting and it got really toxic and that false compassion saying, you know what, I think maybe you just need to leave her. It's like quickly just don't be a burden anymore. Just have that released kind of thing. And if this were an exterior thing that didn't tie to our soul, our hearts, our

very being, I could see where maybe that would be like, Hey, that backpack's heavy. Take it off. Yeah. Right. This ain't a backpack. No. And so when someone just tried to soothe, it's dismissive, well, it's dismissive and it honestly is more harmful. And I don't blame the Catholic priest. He is accountable. I don't blame the Catholic counselor and he is accountable. You should blame him. Not for your actions, but well, I do say it's wrong. Right. But I don't I don't blame the choices I made on him is what I'm saying. Yeah. I don't suggest it.

It is wrong. And it was actually harmful. Was there any time, any point during this time that you thought, you know what, I just I just have to I have to embrace this. Maybe that's why I did it. Okay. Yeah. So you did get to that point then. Oh yeah. Right after. So I'm dating this girl. I'm now divorced. Right. And I'm like, okay, the issue with what I've got going on, all this inner war, lack of peace, blah, blah, blah, is because I'm, I mean, honestly, even my counselor, it's because you're lying and cheating. Just be you. Yeah. So guess what I did? I just was me. Right. So now I'm openly dating women. OK, I want to know what that experience of quote unquote coming

out of the closet is like. And because help me understand it and help our viewers who don't struggle with same sex attraction understand that like what that I can see why that must feel liberating. Well, I met with a priest actually. And in based off like

our conversation, he was a type of priest. He's no longer a priest, actually, and in based off like our conversation, he was a type of priest. He's no longer a priest. Actually, he de-robed. I don't know what it's called, but he's gave it up. He's actually married to a woman now. And but he basically that conversation with him sealed in what I wanted. Yeah. But it didn't take away the fact that I knew what I wanted didn't align with what I knew to be true. But what I will tell you, even when I was driving home from that conversation with him, it was about two hours, we were both crying, right?

Seemed to be- The priest? You and the priest, okay. Drive home- Why is he crying? I think he, in a way, and I do, I grew up knowing him, like he was a family friend, priest. Okay.

I believe he did care for me. Gotcha. And I think sometimes we take on human forms of compassion instead of the compassion of Christ. Yeah. That actually is gonna suffer through things. And I think, so I think there was a distortion there and he was in a way bearing my burden,

but his response, his basically answer to my burden is where it went wrong. He started to bear it. He felt the pain I was feeling and I felt that from him. But then he tried to solve it. And he tried to solve it without sticking to Christ and the way Christ heals us. Right? And so for me, that's where it went rogue. And so for me, I'm driving home and I remember, like seriously, I remember seeing the sunset a way I'd never seen it. And I thought, okay, God's affirming this.

Like I'm seeing color again. It sounds so weird. But like, I felt like I'm seeing color again. Like this is the right move. And seeing, got to be aware Satan is always at work, right? And so God is the one who showed the sunshine the way it was going and the color that I could see now but

Where I think now it was I believe God was celebrating that I was being real I believe he was like thank you for coming out of hiding. Thank you for bringing this forth. I don't want you to live a life of repression like you were. There's a big difference between celebrating it and repressing it. Right. And so for me, I believe there was a celebration from God of like, thank you for not feeling like you have to keep this in. I do not believe he was celebrating what I was gonna choose to do with that. So I ended up, yeah, coming out, told my family. What was that experience like?

They already knew, to be honest. My mom had questioned, she had asked me, throughout my young life, Kim, do you have an attraction to women? Ask it and they're like, if you say yes, it's gonna be totally okay. It's okay, we'll still have pasta. Just please be honest with me.

Yeah, no thanks, mom. It's okay, we'll still have pasta. Just please be honest with me. Yeah, no thanks mom. You know, like it's like having that sex talk with your parents. I know it's probably a good thing to do. Yeah. It's awkward, uncomfortable. And again, she wasn't safe to me because if I, I feel like, I feel like this doesn't mean it's true, but I feel like had I shared, yes mom, I do,

I would have gotten the whole like laundry list of what to avoid, how to overcome this, what not to do, what to do, instead of just holding me and crying with me. Well, what's that gonna do for anyone? A lot, actually, a lot. It's just safe to be where you're at without it being celebrated.

Keep talking. What's your advice for parents whose children come out to them like this? Meet your kid where they're at. Without it being celebrated. Keep talking. What's your advice for parents? Just... Those children come out to them like this. Meet your kid where they're at. That doesn't mean you have to like celebrate it, but you can celebrate them. You can celebrate the one that God gave you to raise up on this earth without celebrating everything they do.

Can you just not talk for a second? See, here's the thing. I already knew what my mom believed. I didn't believe that was gonna change because I now had same-sex attraction and was gonna live in this. Her truth was not gonna change based on my decisions. And I'm thankful for that.

That's not easy to now live in, right, for me, like my mom doesn't agree with my lifestyle, but I didn't need to hear from her every day that she didn't agree with me and that it was wrong and that it was sin. I already knew that and she knew that I knew that. But it's kind of like sometimes we kind of drill it in so much and that's usually when people start

just pushing away, it's like, I don't want to hear it. Because reality is, if you were raised to know God, even if there was a twist or a tweak or a distortion, you know it's wrong. And like, I know it's wrong more than you do mom, because I'm actually doing it, right? So it's like saying Yes. And like, I know it's wrong more than you do, Mom, because I'm actually doing it. Right. So it's like saying you get drunk. The person who's drunk and feels it the next day feels it more than the person's like, you shouldn't have got drunk. It's bad for you.

Well, no crap. Like, I feel it. And so I was experiencing the wages of sin. Right. So I didn't need anyone else. Isn't that a wonderful statement? The wages of sin, because the wage is something you give to somebody who's working for you and it's what's owed you. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's what I was exchanging with. I was exchanging with sin. I was exchanging with a life that Christ did not pay for me. He paid to overcome that within me. And so, and that is just hard. And I just think there's so much. I think to meditate on that, sit with the Lord, ask Holy Spirit,

like, what does it look like to bear burden with the person I love? My daughter who came out, my son who is an alternative lifestyle, something that is not the way that God has for him, how do I bear this with them, Lord? How do you bear it with me? Because see, we get so jacked up in this like,

oh my gosh homosexuality okay there is so much sin around us and when we talk about another sin it doesn't minimize the other when I say that there's heterosexual sin that's not me condoning or minimizing homosexual sin but we tend to like around homosexuality it's like the lepers of the time you're so much more sinful and you know how hard that is? Like to be the person that is struggling or maybe not even admitting that they're struggling, but maybe internally struggling and seeing other people sin and yours

just be pointed at and highlighted. This is good. You know, it's like, I already feel like crap. Break that open more, because I also think what you're doing right now is you're talking to people who have been gaslit by a leftist culture that pushes this perversity. Like there's an active effort to push it. Yeah. And so when we respond to the thing that's being pushed on us, we're told, why are you so obsessed with this? Right. And so sometimes it's not that we're so obsessed with this. It's just that this is what you are pushing on my children through, you know, Disney, etc.

But what you're saying is so true nonetheless that it's kind of like the woman who struggles with pornography and she is made to feel that her sin with pornography is far more- Worse than a guy's. Yeah. Exactly. And we've done that. We have started to, we've, and the church doesn't do that, but are we as a church starting to do what the church doesn't teach? And that's kind of like elevating certain sins above

others. Sexual sin is sexual sin and it hurts. It hurts us, it hurts those we're involved with. And so in that, to me, I think we're really hurting each other in it and we're pushing people away. There is an agenda. and anybody who says there's not has not read the book of revelation. We are seeing that come to be where evil is seen as good and good is seen as evil, right? And that we see agendas, we see things pushed on children. I am not advocating for that. I am not advocating for that at all. But to say that because I have same-sex attraction or that's a struggle of mine or a desire of mine that I'm now tied to this agenda that I want to teach kids to do things.

I'm not that. So separate me please from an agenda. There is an agenda. Let's not pretend there's not. But there's a person and are you instantly putting those two together? Isn't this what the labels do? Yeah, like the LGBTQ, whatever. It's literally clumping you into a group so that you do lose your identity in a way. Well, yeah, I mean, I think any thing is going to do that. And we could see that even Republican Democrat, right? And now we're just so wrapped in this that we actually lost who we are and whose we are. Right. God's not like Kim, you are my Republican daughter.

You are my did it. Kim, you are my Republican daughter, or you are my da-da-da-da-da. No, you are my daughter. That was paid for by the blood of my son when I came down from heaven to earth, right? And so to me, I think because Satan is just so reared up right now, right? Like he knows his time is short. There is a second coming, right?

And he knows the clock is ticking to get as many souls as he can. And so if we can partner with that as Christians and be like, that's all just part of an agenda, or we as Christians are like, I'm a gay Christian. Your sexual desire comes over what God has done for you. I've never heard someone say, I'm a heterosexual Christian. I'm a pornographic addicted Christian. You're a Christian who experiences or struggles with or whatever, right? But like there's such a disorder

in our identity as sons and daughters. And to me, I think that's a place where the church can raise up and start preaching and teaching on our sonship that we are beloved sons and daughters. Well, not because you earned it, not because you deserve it. And so if we start hearing that more through the church, we're gonna start seeing that, because we have to remember what Paul says.

He says that this is not a battle of flesh and blood, but of spirit and principality. So we recognize where those spirits and principalities are at work, not only in agendas, but also in our loved ones. But we have to remember, but also in our loved ones. But we have to remember, it's not me versus them. It's the Spirit of God versus the Spirit of Satan

at work in our world. And so we tend to lose sight because as, see, so here's my thing. If I had a child and they're like, mommy, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, I feel this way. I'm gonna fight for the true identity of my child as Satan's fighting to convince them otherwise. Are we as church, little C, fighting for the identity of sons and daughters back over our loved ones?

Are we reminding them of who they really are? Yes, you have that desire, I am not ignoring that. I am not even putting that to the side. But I wanna elevate the only thing worthy of being elevated. And that's who you are as a beloved son or daughter baptized into the family of God and brought in not by your, not by your good merits, but by the merit of Jesus Christ on the cross. And you either receive that or you reject it. And I pray to God every one of us receives it.

You can't earn it, but you can reject it. And I believe there are sons and daughters that are lost. They're the prodigals. They are lost. And they are for God. They have forgotten or they've never even heard of who they truly are and who they're called to be. And I pray to God as Christians, we are knowing who we are in Christ and all the things that we do, whether good or bad, come sub to that. And that we remind others in the world who they're called to be. And that's an invitation that is actually beautiful. That's one when I've shared my story, people from the LGBT community are like,

tell me more because I'm not coming at their identity. I'm offering something open handedly, not you're a son or daughter. You shouldn't be doing this. Do you know what's available to you? Do you know that you can have identity for all of eternity, that you can't lose, you can reject, but you can't lose based on your behavior? See, so often I thought that I was losing this love of God,

this sonship, daughtership, right, because of my behavior. But if you don't know the heartbeat of God, this sonship, daughtership, right? Because of my behavior. But if you don't know the heartbeat of God and you only know his rules, then that's where we kind of get this off. And I personally believe in, and people are like, oh, so you just want us to love them, just love everybody. Can you present, look, if this room was dark, I would walk in and say, I'd be like,

Matt, turn on the light. I'm not gonna sit and fight say, I'd be like, Matt, turn on the light. I'm not going to sit and fight the darkness. I'm going to be like, turn on the light. So to me, when we experience darkness, are we going to carry the light? Jesus is appealing. Do they know that Jesus? Do they know the true Jesus that died while they were still sinners? Not when they got all their stuff together while they were still sinners.

So I know there's a lot there and it kind of jumps around, but there's just so much and it hurts my heart. It really does, Matt. It hurts my heart because I know the struggles that I've had and still have and it just hurts to me that there's people out there that may not know God. There might be some real big distortions. And when I go out to share Christ, I may actually be adding to that distortion, not helping to untwist that. And for them to see God rightly and then themselves rightly, someone doesn't take on an identity unless they don't know who they are. If you have an identity and you know that it is a beautiful one that cannot be replaced and you're not gonna identify with something else the only time you're going to is when you don't know who you are and you need to be something cuz we're created to be something. When you get into a conversation with somebody who's living a gay lifestyle though I would imagine as you say these many beautiful things. beautiful things. I mean, if I was living a gay lifestyle and you were saying all this, I think I'd want to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know what you're getting to. What you're

getting to is I'm not allowed to be with this person that I love. It's not about allowed to be. That's where that's where I think we're getting that to me when someone says that shows me a pinch of a reflection of myself in the past. I'm not allowed to. So you're going right to the rules you do you know the heart of God? Because Matt if I came in here, and you're like hey, we'd never met and you're like hey So we're gonna do this show don't do this don't do that I need you to do this and you do that before we had any Interactions and I could actually like know you a little bit almost happened. He didn't shake your hand

I told you not to yeah Really weird, but thank God I met you before. And I knew your heart. He doesn't get to talk to you. I still don't agree with that handshake thing that happened. Just kidding. That's not what happened. To be determined. I really disagree.

He sneezed in his hand. I went to shake his hand. I didn't see the sneeze. He did the old school thing. So, but in that, you know. Yeah, if all you heard were rules. If all you heard was rules and you didn't have, an example I do, if someone heard my mom

like yelling all these things to me like, Kim, you got to do this, this and that, they'd be like, do that woman's a bee. Like she is she angry or she's this or she's that. And I'd be like, no, you don't know her heart. I do see. And so I think there's so many people in the world that know God's rules. They know his ways. They know they know the do's and the don'ts, but they don't know His heart and particularly His heart for them. And so everything feels like, well, dad's not, dad, father, is not going to let me do that. Then you don't know your father. See, because when you know the heart of God, you see the beauty of His ways. If you only know His ways, you probably aren't going to see the beauty in him. And I think that's what's happening.

I think there's, and people are like, oh, that's not gonna do it. Okay, well, you do what you feel called to do. And I celebrate that. I'm not telling you you're doing wrong. But I feel because of my own experience, I'm not the only one, I can't be the only one in the world

that learned all of his rules, despised his rules, disagreed with his rules, becauseised his rules, disagreed with his rules because I didn't know his heart. Matt, I'm not dating women right now. I am not wanting to be with a woman right now. And the only reason I'm not with women is because I am beginning to experience and know God's heart.

And I'm realizing He is good so that all that comes forth from Him is good. But you have to know the source before you know what comes forth from it. If I had a pipe in the wall right there and I'm like, hey, go get some water. You're like, cool. I'm like, oh, it's not that one. It's the one with the actually like crusty poop around it. You wouldn't want it. You wouldn't want what comes forth from that because of what the source itself is. And so I think that there is so much poop that we've put around God, the source of all the rules, all the ways that people are rejecting it because they're rejecting the very source is I think the source has been a little corroded.

So that's my experience. What you've said is so beautiful. I feel embarrassed just to ask another question because I want you to keep preaching. My sister. Would you say a word about identifying with these these labels? You said a little bit, but I mean, should people be considering themselves gay, lesbian, these sorts of things or are these are these labels that we shouldn't use? Here's my concern. Well, I'll I know sometimes we just want like a yes or no.

No, it's a great question. It's a great. Now that guy wants to know it. Whoever just drove by, he's really excited to get in here. Um, I think sometimes we look for a yes or a no, but I think there's sometimes weightiness behind. So I'm not trying to not answer a question there. It will be answered. I am concerned when we label ourselves with, whether it be gay, straight, bisexual, transgender,

all these different, not just within the LGBT community. So I'm gonna take a second. When I moved to Ethiopia at 23, I sold my house, just quit my real estate career and started a nonprofit. When I came home, everybody called me a missionary. They're like, oh, you're the missionary in Ethiopia. I'm like, no. They're like, Kim, right?

I'm like, yeah, you have the mission in Ethiopia. Yeah, so you're the missionary. No, no. When I started selling real estate, young, you're the youngest realtor in San Diego County. That's who you are, you're a realtor. Well, no, I sell homes, okay? These are good titles, right?

Missionary, quote unquote, maybe some people disagree. But generally speaking, especially in a Christian circle, good titles. I couldn't receive it, Matt. I'm like, it's what I'm doing? And it's real. But there was something within me, and I believe it was grace,

that wouldn't allow me to take it as my identity. I wrote a book, everybody starts calling me an author. It's real, but there was something within me, and I believe it was grace, that wouldn't allow me to take it as my identity. I wrote a book. Everybody starts calling me an author. I'm like, I'm not an author. I wrote a frigging book. That doesn't make me who I am. I now share my testimony

and share about the goodness of God and freedom and the continued journey, right, with Christ. People try to, oh, you're a speaker. No, I go and I share, it's not who I am. So it was no different for me when I was dating women. I remember I once, my best friend was with me and I brought my girlfriend, like, hey, this is so and so, this is my best friend, so and so.

My friend looks at me and she's like, I am so glad you finally came out as gay. And I'm like, I'm not gay. And she's like, and my girlfriend's like, what the hell? You should have told me this a year ago, you know? And I'm like, I'm not gay. And she's like, well, who's she? I'm like, that's my girlfriend.

And she's like, then you're gay. I'm like, no, I'm dating her and I'm not ashamed to say that. And I'm attracted to her and this that, but it's not who I am. So, I don't only say that because I rejected all these quote-unquote good titles, and then with this other one in a Christian circle, gay, would be seen as not a good or not a godly or holy, right, title. I rejected that too. So, I rejected what was good and I rejected what was not good, because ultimately it's not my identity. What happens during COVID when the mission got shut down? Who the hell would I be now? The mission stopped. I couldn't travel for two years. I couldn't see the kids. Unemployed missionary. Right? Yeah, there's

my new title. Like this changing identity. Yeah. That is not what Christ died for. We have forgot that His blood made us, brought us and did what we couldn't do ourselves. And it brought us into right relationship with God, back as sons and daughters. And so for me, I could know who I wasn't and still not know who I am. You can know, somebody could be like, "'Oh Kim, so you're Ethiopian, right?'

I'd be like, no, but I didn't do the genealogy study to find out that I'm a fourth German, whatever all these things, right? Surely not Australian. And so in that, I think that the issue, when we take a desire or something we're doing a lot of, and we now put it as who we are, my concern is you are rooting yourself

in something that is changing, could possibly change, right and and that could be a good thing quote unquote or a bad thing quote unquote But ultimately it's changeable if you are Matt Fred pints with Aquinas and pints Aquinas gets canceled by the world, right? Who are you now now? You're Matt Fred canceled. Yeah, you know, and that's not what God died for He didn't die for you to be canceled, right? Now you're Matt, Fred, canceled. Yeah. And that's not what God died for. He didn't die for you to be canceled, right? And so in that, my rootedness, if my rootedness are in things of the world, even if they're good things, it's not what our identity is.

He died so we would be sons and daughters. And that's the only identity that I wanna identify as. When people ask me when I come on their shows, they're like, so, you know, should we say author this? I was like, can you say beloved daughter? They're like, that's weird. You know, it sounds weird. Still can you do it? Just do it. And they're like, how about you do it? I literally I was sharing yesterday and they're like, can you just say that? See, we are scared to take on identities as beloved sons and daughters.

My question is why? Maybe because we're not really being taught about our sonship. What's really been done? What the gospel message is? Do we receive it? And if we don't receive that identity as our identity, we will receive something else. And so my concern, back to just easy answer, I'm genuinely concerned for the person who takes on an identity I'm genuinely concerned for the person who takes on an identity that is not rooted in Jesus Christ and in Him alone. When it involves us, our accomplishments, our whatever, those can fade and fail, but the accomplishment He did on the cross will never fade and fail.

And so to me, that's the only identity, any one of us who knows Christ and begins to know the Father through Jesus Christ, that's the only solid and eternal. I'm not gonna, if I go to heaven, God's not gonna be like, oh my gosh, my realtor's here. Oh my gosh, Kim. You're gonna be selling real estate here in heaven. Yeah, you got road A. So in that, like to me, I just think we need to get back to the sonship. And when we start to realize who we are to him, other things start to fall apart. Did you ever try to listen to, for lack of a better word, kind of gay apologetics within Christianity? Did you try to maybe did you come like maybe

maybe we're wrong? Like maybe we got this one wrong. Yeah. And once I realize that and once the church converts on this point and realizes there's nothing wrong with monogamous gay relationships. And I don't want to kind of wait around and lonely until that happens. I could be one that was fighting for it, actually. Yeah. People have said that. They're like, you're on the wrong team. You would be like a voice, an advocate to bring.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't. I dealt with that actually as a priest priest who tried to unpack that for me. He's like, Kim, just so you know, homosexuality in the Bible is not what you're experiencing. Kim, it's X, Y, and Z. It was not monogamous, it was not this. He said, so long as you're monogamous, and this is real, God is, love is love.

I'm like, wait, doesn't it say God is love? I was like, bro, priest, I came to you because I'm actually asking for like truth. And he's like, and he said, well, what is truth? I said, truth is Christ. And I believe in the Bible. I may not understand all of it or know the background. And he's like, that's where you're off. He's like, see, when it comes to homosexuality, that's where we've it's been politicized. He went the whole route, right, like that many do. Yeah. And I said, okay, I said this, now I'm not too smart because I got kicked out of junior college, but why is the one thing I struggle with the only thing that's really off in the Bible? That seems too freaking convenient, but I'll try it. And I tried it.

And I didn't. I never had peace. Here's the thing. True peace, I had momentary glimpses, right? And I believe that's grace. But one peace, true peace, the Prince of Peace is going to be rooted and grounded in Jesus Christ, His truth. He is the way, the truth, and the life.

And that is not just trying to quote scripture. I lived outside of that truth and did not experience peace. I had freedom. My family did not reject me. They did not push me out. And my heart goes out because I know many people who have experienced being rejected by their family. They've been disowned, right? And then the flip side, where the person in the lifestyle, if they weren't accepted and celebrated in their relationship, then they pushed their family out. So I've seen a lot of different ways that this has played out. My experience wasn't that did my family agree with me and what I was choosing to do? No, they didn't. Did they remind me of that? Every time I sat down to dinner or met up with them? No, I knew what they believed,

but the reality was they still loved me. See, they could separate my decisions and my choices from me. They didn't label me as gay. So did you keep going to Holy Mass while you were living this lifestyle? Yeah. Many people were like, you shouldn't have been going to Mass. I said, well, you should take the plank out of your eye too. Cause I got one too. I got one too. And, and I was always, I was always repentant. Now some people are going to say, well, you were repentant. I didn't know, I was confused, but all I did know

was I didn't want to leave God. And to me, I'm sorry, but I can celebrate that in someone that they do not. I wasn't doing it for someone else. I was not doing it so that, oh good, she's a Catholic. She goes to mass. No, I was very honest with my life. I was very open with it life. I was very open.

I mean, were you going to confession? Yeah. So is it like a cycle of? Yeah. And I would say, like, I don't know what to do because I do have these desires and I don't know how to stop them and I don't know what's going on. And I do have a girlfriend and we try to not be physical and, you know, but it was it was a mess.

I'm afraid to ask this question because I think the answer will be no. But like, did you ever get good advice in the confessional? Did a priest ever like look at you and say something true that you're like? Yes. Or was it just just a realization that priests have not been equipped to deal? No, there was there was some good advice, whether or not I wanted to receive it was a different story.

I had one priest say to me, and I believe it was a prophetic word over my life, I don't know about to the degree that he said it, but he said, you know what I have a feeling? You're gonna be the saint within the Catholic church that you gave your desires to Jesus every day. And you'll be able to intercede from heaven for those who struggle. That's obviously true.

And so for me, I mean, it gets my heart in. I mean, we're all called to be saints and the Lord wants to give us grace to do that. Um, but in that there was, I don't want to slam priests. I love priests. Many of my friends are priests. I have a great spiritual director. Um, but I think also I, I chose to go to certain people too. I want to be honest with that. Now I, they were safe to me cause I knew them through family. I didn't just want this random person, you know.

But by God's grace, I didn't receive the stuff that wasn't true. I tried to, but man, what I was seeking was peace. Is it as exhausting to not live in peace? And so I was seeking peace. And so when I would try these different roads and I didn't have it, I'm like, okay, this really, I knew it was bogus, but I thought I'd just try it just make sure like check that's done didn't work kind of thing. But there was good priests to there was good priests. Nobody really took me in. But maybe I wasn't really asking for that either. You know, I don't put it all on someone else.

attracted like myself trying to analogize what you were going through to say struggling with like self abuse or pornography or something like that. But do you find that kind of cheapens your struggle because you weren't just dealing with a kind of inanimate computer screen, you were dealing with a relationship with another. It was a longing of my heart. Yeah. So that is- In a way that pornography doesn't have to be. It's just- It can be though.

It can be. 100%. Yeah, for sure. I forget who says it, but I don't know if it's Aquinas. You would know. So you'll correct me. Is that underneath every disordered desire is a good and holy desire. I know it might be real. It might be. And but to me, he's clacking away. Right. Yeah, we're going to get the seven years of history is coming.

I love it. Good job. But in that. Yeah, no. Yes, we're going to get the seven years of history is coming. I love it. Good job. But in that. Yeah, no, yes, absolutely. But I think we're where it's hard. St. Christopher said that, I think. Yeah. So where I think it can be hard for those of us who struggle with same sex attraction, we're talking about having a partner in life. So just like for a moment, I guess, to maybe try to understand where we're we're struggling or

what we're experiencing, which probably won't even fully get you there, but to a degree, is think about your wife right now. And when you met her, you desired relationship with her. And if somebody said, hey, as you're like falling in love and gaining friendship and growing. They said, actually, you the right order of this is that you fall in love with her brother. I love that you're saying this because I think what happens is we get, I say we, I mean, like people who are so fed up of the propaganda piling in. And that's real. That we it's like the boy who cried wolf.

It's like I'm not going to listen to anything. So that's something what you just said. It's something I've heard from people who would consider themselves gay advocates who are pushing this stuff. But it's true. Like, it's a great point. It doesn't mean that God said that. I'm just saying that's what it feels like. I didn't create this desire. It's a real desire I have.

Even though I'm willing to say it's a distorted one, it's still there. The Catholic Church says it beautifully in the Catechism. The distorted desire doesn't say the distorted person, it says the distorted desire. And so to me, it would be just you having heterosexual desires. If someone was like, actually the Hank is who you're after. Yeah, it's Hanky. You and Hanky, you know? Come on! He's not repulsive. No, he's not bad. He's all right, I guess. I got it, by the way. What's that?

I got it. All right, go on. Oh good, he's on it. This person is gonna be very flattered that you both thought it was Aquinas and Augustine. All right. Well, I want the deep root. It's Dr. Bob Schuetz.

No, it's not. He's quoting somebody else. What's the quota? This article is behind, the quote is, I have heard it said. Behind every disorder desire is a holy desire. Yes.

But I believe- You got that from Christopher. Christopher got that from somebody. Someone got it from someone else. It's okay, we can all steal these quotes. I love, Dr. Bob Shoots, their podcast has been so helpful to me, Restore the Glory.

My goodness. Like I'm telling you, it is showing me things in my childhood and God's doing it. He's using it to show me things. It's not to blame my parents. It's not to, none of that. Blaming someone is not going to help anything. It's just not. Because the reality is this is real. To blame them is going to actually push all that you've got now onto them instead of, wow, this happened. I could see the areas where my mom maybe wasn't as present as my little childhood self-desired

Yeah, I could either spend all my energy blaming her or just recognize it and bring that to the Lord and so Amen, and I know you know this is true And it's so it's too obvious to say maybe but a lot of this has to do with interpretation doesn't it like you could have? Two situations where a parent says something terribly nasty and someone says something rather innocent and one receives it differently and then agrees with that. For sure. And that's why I feel like these words, because we take them like when you tell someone something, they matter. I mean, Jesus says, even His name has power, the word, the spoken word.

So that means other words have power. They really do. And then when we accept them as truth, when they don't align what is true, man, scary stuff. And me too, me too. So when did you decide to, well, what did you decide to do? October 17th, 2014.

Somebody asked me yesterday, and they're like, so was there like a certain day, do you remember? I'm like- 3.32 PM at a Starbucks. I just don't have the time. So whatever.

But it was October 17th, 2014. And to be honest, I was picking up all this stuff from my ex-girlfriend's house. I had dated a few women, all different, monogamous, not overlapping or cheating or anything like that. And the last girl that I like officially dated, I was going to pick up my stuff from her house. And my friend who was actually

discerning the Dominicans was with me. And this is a guy actually who loved me so well while I was in the lifestyle. I knew God for good men, right? I knew that he believed and knew that what I was choosing to do was not God's plan for me, but he didn't drill it into me. He didn't even bring it up. And that was so intriguing to me. I'm like, wait a minute.

You know what he would do is he would bring Christ. He'd be like, Kim, I was praying for you this morning and I felt like, and this was not like a bit sweet. No, bait and switch. Thank you. It sometimes passes me. Bitch and sweet. That's a good one.

That's a new one. So it wasn't this. There was no ulterior motive except he wanted me to really know whose I was, whose I was, that I belonged to someone that loved me. And he did such a great job of that. He did a perfect but he did an amazing job. So he actually drove me to her house to go get my stuff and he said, can I take you to a prayer meeting after like just a praise and worship night? I'm like, what's that, right? Like if that was ever offered in the Catholic church,

I was like, nah, I'm good, you know? And so went and got the stuff. And as we were driving, he was driving me as driving away. I look in the rear view mirror and I see her sitting there on those steps of her house with her dog and just, I literally felt like I saw this dark cloud over her. And I felt like in that moment, the Lord asked me,

Kim, do you think that I introduced the two of you to leave both of you like this? Cause that same heaviness and hurt and pain is what I was feeling. And I saw it over her too. And at that moment, that's all I needed to hear. I was like, I was not put on this earth to be hurt and to hurt people.

It might happen, but that's not my goal. And that's not what it's supposed to be. And this is a repetitive thing. This is a cycle. This isn't just her, this has been and been and been. And so I literally, I threw my hands up and I was like, I surrender. There was no one leading me in it.

I threw my hands up and I said, God, I am done pretending to be God. I'm horrible at it. I'm hurting myself. I'm hurting everyone that is in my wake. I want you to be God over my life. I surrender. I didn't even know.

These words were just flying out. I said, I surrender. Whatever you've got to do to show me that you're good at being God. But wait for it. I said, I give you one year. All I can give you is one year. And I don't even know that I can give you a full year.

But I'm gonna try to do, I was in real estate. So I said, I'm gonna go on lease to own. These words are coming out. My friend could attest to this. This is not a written prayer that probably people will be repeating. But I said, I will go on lease to own. Show me that you're good and I will go all in.

I just need to experience your goodness and I haven't and I'm seeking you in everything and I'm seeking goodness and I haven't found it. So please tonight, show me that you are good and then we'll go from there. And that night the Lord radically encountered me. I was at a Protestant prayer meeting. I was prayed over, I was prophesied over.

The man was reading my mail. I don't know if that part made it into the book, but I'm telling you, Matt, I was- What do you mean he was reading your mail? He was reading my mail. This African preacher is literally dropped out of Africa. He's in Orange County, and he starts calling out all this stuff as people are going up in line.

He's, you struggle with sleep and the Lord wants to give you rest, but you're did it. And so I'm like, this is amazing. This is great. And then I realized, oh shit, I'm next. I'm like, dude, this guy struggles with sleep. This one, you know, eats too many donuts.

I'm like, I'm freaking dating women. I'm cheating, you know, like, you can read that mail out loud, but like whisper mine, you know, where this is real, like my gosh. Cause I was super pumped on it. I'm like, the Lord is here, you know? And they You know, this is real, like my gosh. Cause I was super pumped on him. Like the Lord is here, you know? And I was like, oh my God, the Lord is here, you know?

Exactly. Shoot. And so, but so there's like kind of fear that I was going to be like exposed in all the stuff. And there was such beauty in that exposure. He didn't say a word about homosexuality. He said, you are victorious in Jesus's name. I declare victory, victory, victory.

And every time he said victory, it like pierced something within me. You know, we're in the scriptures, it says that Peter spoke and it cut to the heart. When he spoke words of victory over me, he said, you have finally given your life and the Lord will reign victorious and dead. And he just starts going and boom, I'm on the ground.

I was out for hours on the ground. Tell me what that experience was like. My gosh. I mean, first of all, physically what happened and then explain what happened. Physically I went down. You just fell over. Gone. Done.

Yeah. Someone caught me. Thank God the Protestants know they're going to go down, you know? And nobody pushed me. His hands weren't near me. I mean, it was like the power of God took me out. And I just, but there was also, see, I actually, I retract that it didn't take me out. I allowed it to take me out. Right? Like there was

this like God, I, when I was walking up there, I was like, I'm scared that he's going to just reveal all this stuff, but it is what it is. Do what you want to do. Cause I gave you just an hour ago. I said, you be Lord. So do what you want to do. I'm not taking it back yet. And so there was that permission. Wow, you gave him a year, he took an hour. Yeah, not even an hour, dude. Like it was crazy. And so, yeah, I was laid out on the floor and I could have gotten up.

There was this almost war, but the one that was winning was this peace. I was just laid out, my eyes were closed and I could hear movements. I could, you know, things were moving around me, I could tell things kept going on, but the Lord, like, I felt this invitation of like, look at me, just look at me, I'm looking at you, look at me, and I feel like

I was washed in love, like bathed in love, there was some sort of spiritual open heart surgery beginning to happen, when I stood up, few hours later, the whole room was cleared out, all the chairs were gone. And I felt I was in Orange County living in San Diego at the time, I felt like I could have ran home. Like I was so on fire, my body felt hot. I was like torched.

Something within was different. All desires didn't go away, but there was a deeper desire. I wanted to read the Bible. Like, I wanted to go home and just read. Like, I was in, I felt like I was infused with a craving for more of God because I had tasted. Why does Jesus say, taste and see that I am good? Because when we taste something that's good, we want more. And we seek and we find and we ask and we receive, right? And so in that, I had asked, God show me that you're good. He showed me he's good.

And I'm telling you, every single day since October 17, 2014, I have not been perfect. That is what I stand on first. But God has revealed, I have not been faithful, but God has showed himself faithful. He has began to reveal his true nature, which I've never known, his goodness, his mercy, his grace, beyond what I can put into physical language. It's experiential, and my language fails

to do the fullness of what I've experienced. And I have stories, I could write a whole nother book on the stories of how God has showed himself in the midst of my brokenness. I'm beginning to understand why Paul says that he would boast in his weakness for there God would be manifest strong. God's always strong, but it's when we're willing to humble ourselves and say, I am weak, I am broken.

This is the area God come in and he now can manifest himself strong. He can show what he only could do. And so ever since then, it has been, I cannot even begin to describe the way my life has changed. It is not finished, it's not done, it's a daily surrender. Every day that I wake up, every day that I wake up,

God, again, I give you permission, be Lord over my life, Jesus, be Lord over my life. I want to encounter your goodness. I want to receive it, and then I want to give it freely. You receive freely. You shall give. See, the problem before was I couldn't give what I didn't have. You can't give what you did not first yet receive. I was loving with a very broken love because I only knew a broken love. When this is off, when the nature of God, as I said before, is off in your mind or in your understanding, then the nature of yourself is off and the nature of others is off. And so he's been reordering his own

nature to me. And in turn, I'm seeing my own desires being reordered to his nature, not conversion therapy, not being changed, but being transformed. It's not a, it's not a journey of picking a bunch of fruit off. So I look better. It's actually about letting the Lord trusting that he is good and letting him into those deep places to get to the root of what's really going on. So that fruit doesn't come back, but it's not just because you're so busy picking it all off. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so that's gee praise the Lord Conversion therapy, what's your opinion on it? Good time for a drink, um, it's water but

You know So I never experienced conversion therapy and my heart goes out for anyone Who was sent somewhere to tell them they need to do different and they are bad and all of that's wrong no matter what. If you are forced to do something, that is not an expression of God. It's not. He does not force us. It says the kindness of the Lord leads us to repentance, not the strong fist, you know,

arm of the Lord. And so in that when people are not met with kindness, compassion, and truth, which all go together, they shouldn't be separated. That hurts my heart. It hurts my heart, whether it be in therapy, in church, or one-on-one with each other. I don't, I mean, I'll tell you this. I was actually part of fighting a bill in California

that said, my book, just my testimony, bro, just my written testimony, not telling anybody about themselves, only really putting out for the world my life and all the junk I've done and how God's met me in that, that that would be considered conversion therapy if that new bill had passed. And I'm like, whoa, hold on.

We need to be clear with language here. My own testimony, it would have been, if that bill had passed, it would have been illegal for me to go in even to certain places and when I'm invited to share my testimony. I'm like, we're calling that conversion therapy, me sharing, what world do we live in? I can do that in Ethiopia.

In the United States, I can't share what God's done, but I can go pick up a book on Satanism. I can go pick up a book on so many different things, but my book would be banned because it's telling someone they can't be who they are. No, I'm sharing what God's done in my life. If you agree, amen. If you don't, amen. Like, so I have a hard time because so many things are considered, my book would be considered conversion therapy. Well, yeah, I have a problem with that. I have a problem that you want to halt the goodness that God has done in my life and me sharing so that possibly, possibly, if someone desires to they

can't find it. That ain't fair. That's not freedom. That's not freedom. And in the same I don't want to halt or silence someone else's voice. You have the right to have a voice. We may not agree but I don't want to just silence you so that the only voice that can be heard is mine.

So now it's true that it's forceful. That's not true. That's not real. I'm sure you work and live alongside people with same sex attraction have you encountered people who have experienced a conversion in their sexual desiring to the. Oh for sure yeah I do actually my friend who was in here earlier MJ she did a documentary called here's my heart and there's many people that I know now that not only have we seen people and not forced, not through going to a therapist and them saying you have to change, it's wrong, or some of the, you know, maybe horror stories that I heard from very, you know, times past and maybe present, I

don't know. But they didn't experience that, but they did experience an encounter with Jesus and they found a love. There was healing involved, healing over relationships with the opposite sex and things and even with the same sex. And some have come to get married, but we need to remember the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality. It's holiness. The opposite of any sin It's holiness. The opposite of any sin is turning back to God who is sinless, right? Is turning back to God. And so the opposite of homosexuality to me is not, I don't prove, right, that I'm not homosexual or don't have homosexual desires by getting married.

And a lot of people do try to do that. They think that, oh my gosh, it means now I got to get married. But I know many people who didn't think they had to get married, but they fell in love. I mean, many people, and they really, and they have kids. Yeah, they're like, gosh, I didn't even want to fall in love, but I love this woman, or I love this man. And I celebrate that.

But I also celebrate the person who no longer acts on their desires, or even says, I don't even want to, I just want to, is God good? Right, and they're willing to even just maybe give him a shot like I did. And experiences goodness and then choose. So was that better than he is? Did you go through a point since that conversion moment with the African preacher

where you begged the Lord to kind of, no. No, no more begging. No more begging. It was actually, it was almost daily. It was like, okay, God, I really wanna read your word. And his word was just coming alive to me. Like I couldn't get out of it. My family's like, okay, this might be too much.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, but like chill out, you know? I was like face down on my floor, praise and worship by myself. I was weeping on the ground, like just such sweet, beautiful times that I still have now, right? I pray that never changes,

not just in your first honeymoon stage, but like a real relationship where there's still the sweetness. But for me, it was no longer like God take this from me. I actually realized it was something I could offer him that I will never be able to offer him again. When and if the Lord invites me to eternity with him, if I continue to choose him here on earth, right?

Because he doesn't send anybody to hell. We either receive heaven or we reject it. We receive Jesus or we reject Him. So in that, if I continue to receive Him and allow Him to transform me into His likeness and image, I won't be able to offer anything except pure and undefiled worship to God. So like here on earth, I get to offer him something as a sweet sacrifice. I never saw it like that. It's hard. It's still a sacrifice. Sacrifice is hard, but guess what?

My sacrifice, just like the sacrifices you might have. If it wasn't that, it would be something else. But I see it as actually a gift. That is hard though. There's pain, there's struggles. There's still where fear tries to creep in saying, who's going to freaking take care of you when you're in a wheelchair? I'm like, hopefully the Lord takes me before I get in it.

You know, I don't know. The Lord will bring someone. Maybe it's not a husband. Maybe it's not a best friend. You know, but it's not all about this life either. Do you have to be kind of on guard against intimate relationships that you develop with women so that they don't cross into being romantic in the same way that I wouldn't want to have an exclusive relationship with a woman as a married man.

Absolutely. So I think it's really important community, right? Why are those within the Catholic Church, why are those who are called to the single life living in community? Well, because we're built for it. God said, as we talked about before, it's not good that man be alone. So what does that look like for me?

Well, right now, I don't feel called. I've tried the sister who, a lot of different religious orders just won't call me back. So I don't think I quite have the entrance there. And I don't feel that that's necessarily the call in my life, at least in this season. But in that, so what does it now look like for me? So I am very aware like, Lord, okay,

maybe I'm not physically intimate with another woman, but guard my heart, am I going to another woman or another man to fill a void that only you can fulfill? Right, like, and I pray we all do that. And honestly, that could even be with husbands and wives. So- No, as a married man, I have to make that prayer. Like I know the times, I'm sure my wife experienced

at the times when I looked at her and she's fully aware that she cannot give me what God can or vice versa. I think the difference is, is you can have like close relationship and not really have a lot of like, you know, fear around that or as much to whereas like, if I get close with someone, they're like,

oh, is that like dangerous? And I'm like, could you please just chill out? Like I fear right now, I lived a very fearful relationship with God and he used that but 1 John 4.18, for perfect love and we know that God is love, not love is love, shoe is not shoe, right? So God is love, so perfect love casts out fear and the man who

still fears is not yet perfected in love, for fear has to do with punishment. And so the place I'm at in my life right now is as I'm learning, right, and in trying to remain moldable in the Lord's hands, I don't want to be afraid of closeness and intimacy that's healthy and holy. I want to be aware and I want to grow. But I lived for many years, like after that, October 17, 2014, I was like, I can't really get close to anyone. And I kind of just push people away. And I realized I was kind of like becoming holy in an isolated way. And I'm like, super loving, caring, but don't let me outside.

You know, I'm so holy, I'm not tempted. Okay, well, where's the woman you're attracted to? Oh, I don't, I blocked her, I didn't, you know. And so I think it's a growth and a process, but I do ask the Lord, like keep me sensitive to anybody that's trying to fill a void that only you can ultimately fulfill, even though it doesn't look like it used to.

I know it can still look like something. And so I think that's something to be aware of, but I pray that it doesn't remain from a fear-based, but more of like, you are perfect, loved, and you want to fill me, God. So it's actually like more of like the catechism, how it teaches, the healthy fear of the Lord, not afraid of him or afraid of punishment or sin,

but afraid of offending him. Like he's given himself fully to me. Lord, I want to receive that. And if in any way I'm letting someone else block the fullness that you want to fill me to, can you show me that? And then then teach me how to walk in that. Are you leaving? Where are you going? He's gone. He done. Um, I was gonna say, this is probably like nine episodes now. This is glorious. The Lord has anointed you. Yeah. To proclaim good news to the poor. Amen. Amen.

We have a I this thing called locals, it's how people support points of the coin. And we have this lovely woman and I won't give away her identity. But you know, she came on and she talked about living a homosexual lifestyle. And it's funny because I'll see her like leave, like actually unsubscribe. And then months later, like resubscribe and then unsubscribe. And then recently she said she's just, she fell back into this lifestyle. And I just wanted you to say something to her.

Well, maybe, maybe look at any woman or man. Yeah. You know, I mean to be honest I it's something you're gonna struggle with and it may be for the rest of your life. Maybe for a season Don't give up on God. We might give up on podcasts We might give up on subscribing to certain channels But my prayer is that we don't give up on God and his goodness If you haven't experienced the goodness of God and we return to something else, it says like we've gone to other lovers. You're not alone in that. I struggle too. But I'm telling you, I believe the struggle is real. But the failure comes when we give up on God.

And so I just pray that you don't give up on God. We may have come to the end of ourselves, but that's usually when we find the beginning of Him. And so I just hope that you don't turn your back on Him, not because you'll be mad, but because He's actually the source. He is the source. Jesus Christ Himself is the source that is gonna fulfill every longing, every longing. And it might take time and there might be suffering, there probably will, but He suffered.

And I think He wants to join us as we suffer in this life for ultimate glory for eternity. And so think he wants to join us as we suffer in this life for ultimate glory for eternity. And so might just sound like good words, but I myself pray for the grace to walk that out as well. So it's not, it's not just good preaching or good words. It's true. So thank you. Yeah. We've over a thousand people watching right now. And she wanted to be self-conscious. Oh, they don't seem like the kind of person who would get nervous. I care for one. Amen. Amen to a thousand. But I mean, like for real, anytime I go somewhere, I'm like, if there's just one, God, I'll go. There's one. Because you know, you know why I'm

so passionate about that is because I didn't, I didn't have someone I felt. And I don't mean this as like a guilt trip or anything, but I don't feel like I had someone. I never had someone come in and just talk like freely and not just, you know, tell me all the things I knew, feel like I had someone, I never had someone come in and just talk freely and not just tell me all the things I knew, but really share openly and vulnerably. And so for me, I'm like, if one person is willing to give you a chance, because I'm willing to share that I didn't give you a chance

and what happened when I did, then it's worth it. If it's a thousand, amen, But it's worth it for one. So well, you can let us know in the comments section if you're the one. I know there's going to be a lot of ones. I want to get to some of these questions that we have here that are coming in from our local supporters. But before we do that, I needed to do a shout out for Hello. And then could you say something different?

I was thought I was. No, no, no. Yeah, that. But also check Slack. We got a couple of supers. Oh, some supers. Are you familiar with Hello? I am. Yeah. It's a fantastic app. Do you have it? Do you have your little like painted face?

Yes, I do. This is back when I had a beard. I won't admit it here, but I will admit it here. I have the free version. So maybe I. Okay, well, here's how you get it for free for three months. Thanks, Kim. If you go to hello.com slash Matt.

And sign up over there, you'll get it for three months for free and you can try out the entirety of the app. And, you know, if you like it, you can keep going, but you actually don't have to. We use it. We actually use it. It's so nice to promote things I actually like. Amen. You know, instead of that, what was that, that protein shake powder I had to that was never a thing. But my lo fi music is on there.

And have you heard Scott Hahn read sleep stories to you? No, but buckle up. OK, because this evening. Oh, and welcome to tonight's Bible story. Are you? My name is Dr. Oh, I love it. I always joke that I listen to that to go to sleep when I'm at I see in the next day and I blush. This is this is the this might be an answer to prayer because I'm like, who gets to whisper

sweet nothings to me? You know, like husbands and wives. Dr. Hahn. My gosh. For three months. Yeah, it's right. Three trials. We'll see if it's worth it.

I might. Hello.com slash Matt. H-A-L-L-O-W.com slash. Matt. Could you turn your computer so I can't see it on the camera? Yeah, thank you. Is that good? All right. My goodness, so many questions.

Let's see where to start. Maybe we'll start with some. Kim says, Tony RVA, thank you for sharing your journey. How would you describe yourself now? Where are you on the journey? What is the scripture for that? I am being sanctified, right? It's a life of sanctification.

So I believe I'm just in the process as we all are. It's not something that I've completed or, you know, success. If you're talking particularly to sexuality, I don't have a desire to get married to a man. I do believe that the Lord could change that. I'm open to that. I'm also open to living single. I'm open to if he has me for religious life.

I don't know what it all looks like. I just know that God's good and he's not gonna direct me in the wrong way. So I just pray for the discernment to know when it's him. Some of these questions we may have addressed. Feel free to take another swing at them or we can move on. Matt Hartman says, Have you ever had discussions with Catholics who say the church's teachings on homosexuality are outdated? Yes. If you have, how have those conversations gone? They're not really conversations. I'm like, that's a bummer that you don't believe

in the teachings of the church. I mean, to me, I don't want, if the world, if the church looks like the world, I'm a little concerned. And so for me, it's not, it's not that we're not talking about, you know, hey, should a priest wear a robe that drops a little bit below his ankle or a little bit, you know, we're talking about family. We're talking about male and female becoming one. What means family? And I don't believe God has ever, ever given us the right, nor did he ask us to,

to change what he has already created and made clear. And so to me, that breaks my heart when people want to see the church change their teachings, when it comes to something that is foundational to what God has laid forth in the beginning. And so to me, it's just gonna try to pull at Satan, pulling at threads of a blanket that God has so beautifully weaved, this full of grace. And so that it hurts my heart and that people are actually fighting. I know there's people within the church that are fighting to see that change. And I just trust and I pray. I have conversations as well, but I stand when Christ said the gates of hell will not

prevail against his church. So Molly asks, what would Kim say Christian marriage is or should look like? We spend so much time focusing on the sin of sodomy. We forget to define and celebrate the term and reality that we're trying to uphold as God has given. Yeah, great question. I think marriage, well, one, let's be just clear, is between man and woman. And I believe that there's struggles within that marriage, but it is a daily not yours. I could tell. Yeah, I've met your I've met your wife. So I know there's no struggle there. It would come from one side. But but in that, I think that it is a commitment

and it actually, we need to remember what Christ says. It's a reflection of the marriage we are called into and invited into the marriage of the lamb, right? So we, this is only an expression. And I think sometimes we elevate Christian marriage above the marriage that is to come. Because Jesus said, there is no husband or wife in heaven. There is no husband or wife.

We have a bridegroom and he's coming back for a bride. And so, you know, I'm not a theologian, so I wanna yield to that too, to not fully impact, but I do believe it's what God said between a man and a woman, and to live out this life of sanctification together, to be helpmates, to be real, to be vulnerable, and to follow what the church has said,

to be open mates, to be real, to be vulnerable, and to follow what the church has said, to be open to children. It's to be open to children too. So I don't believe in contraceptives. Well, that's easy to say because you have same-sex traction. No, that's why I'm probably not married too, because I don't feel called to have children. So, and then you could get into that,

call Jackie for that kind of stuff. But- Jackie, what a woman. I was thinking the other day that only only death, only my dying to self will ensure the happiness of my marriage. And I felt that in a way that was more than just a soundbite, you know, like, because you two people get together and all those defense mechanisms you've learned. All the triggers, all the wounds.

And then you just, yeah. Yeah, you use to try to hurt each other the triggers, all the wounds. And then you just, yeah, yeah. You ooze together. And then you try to hurt each other. The times you, you know, like you've been married for five minutes, you don't understand how, why would you ever do that? Right. Come back to me in four months. Right, yeah. And then forgiving each other and loving each other and man. It's death to self. It's, it's, it's, it's a beautiful death, yeah. Mm-hmm. All right, my goodness, some of these questions are so long. Okay, this person says, ask anonymously, I'm glad I. All right. My goodness, some of these questions are so long. OK, this person says ask anonymously.

I'm glad I got that one. My wife's mother as well as her uncle are both homosexual. They are older and don't actively engage in the act, but it is something that definitely defines who they are. We actively pray for their acceptance of our Lord. My question is, when

someone embraces so deeply a sexual act that it becomes wholly their identity, the acceptance of our Lord. My question is when someone embraces so deeply a sexual act that it becomes wholly their identity, the acceptance of our Lord from a place of humility necessitates that their form of pride becomes shameful to them. What is your recommendation for that person to avoid turning inward again and identifying themselves with their shame, but instead as the newly cleansed child of God that they've become. Yeah, great question. I think we touched on that a little bit, but I think to just summarize, I think to me it would be again, can you show and hold before them not jam in their face, but hold before them a better identity, a lasting identity, one that was paid for that they don't have

to pay for that they don't have to pay for and that doesn't have shame attached to it. See, because we will do a lot of things, and shame can come, but that is as there is no shame or condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, right? And so as we remain in Christ Jesus, we won't experience that shame or condemnation when we humble ourselves, recognize our brokenness, and look back to God's goodness,

and repentance is part of that. So I think hold before each other the identity that we actually didn't pay for but that was bought for for us. LCM S mama three says what would she have wanted someone to say to her early on or what could a parent for example said to a child who was struggling that would be helpful and give guidance. I'm sorry and then hold them. and then hold them. I wish my mom just would have said, I am so sorry and I'm so sorry that you feel alone in this probably.

Can you just tell me, I just wanna listen. I just wanna listen, what are you feeling? What are you longing for? And then just hold me. Let me be hurt. Let me feel these things. Let me express them without a lot of opinions or suggestions or corrections.

Yeah, I've always tried to let not having to do with sexuality, but I've always had to. I've always tried to let my children like feel their feelings. I remember once when we left San Diego, my son came in just weeping because he was going to be leaving his friend. Yeah. And my wife, probably because of the way she was raised, was like, no, it's OK. We'll come back. We'll come back. I'm like, no, like, let him hurt, like, let him hurt. I just sit in the hurt. Yeah. It's probably because of our discomfort that we don't want to sit in the hurt,

that we try to give you a quick fix. Or we don't know how. We don't know how to sit in it. I don't think maybe sometimes, again, you can't give what you don't have. So like for my mom, I don't think she could just sit with me because she was never sat with, she didn't know how to do that for her own hurts, her own things that she experienced, you know?

And so I think it's pretty common, like you can't ask me to do something I don't know how to do, you know? So we need to learn, we need to realize God sits with us. It doesn't mean he's celebrating. Jesus sat with sinners, but he wasn't like, yeah bro, keep taking some money off the top, tax collectors, you know? He didn't celebrate the very thing he's celebrating, Jesus sat with sinners, but he wasn't like, yeah, bro, keep taking some money off the top tax collectors, you know, he didn't celebrate the very thing he

died for, which is sin, but he did sit with them. And then guess what? They encountered him. Yeah. And nor do I, nor do I go and sin no more. And so in that, but even that see, they encountered Christ and they left and followed him because they encountered goodness and they followed him. And so I think a lot of times it goes back to that like bearing with one another their burdens. Can you ask God for the grace to just allow yourself, start with yourself, to feel?

Can you allow God, give me the grace to feel angry and not sin? Yeah. Feel angry. Anger is not a bad thing. grace to feel angry and not sin. Yeah. Feel angry. Anger is not a bad thing. It can lead to sin, but don't God give me the grace to not let it, but express anger hurt. Right? This is not to see. I think what starts to happen, and I'm not going to get into a whole thing here. I might, but stop. Um, cause when we, when we trap a feeling, an emotion, a desire hurt, it actually stays inside, most likely grows in a dark hidden place

and then begins to overtake. And so now I'm driven by the unexpressed hurt, right? Dr. Bob Schutze is probably like, you got this all wrong. But I think it's, we now could be driven by the very thing we're trying to not feel or weren't given a safe place to feel and express. And so allow your children, allow your loved ones to express what they're feeling, even if it seems wrong. Just let them get it out. Jesus says, bring it into his light. I think that's

why I saw the sun the way I did. And it was so bright was because I brought it into his light. Now what I did with it was different. I heard a lovely quote. I forget the J. Stringer. He wrote that excellent book called Unbroken. He said, when we run from our shame, we legitimize its claims against us. So beautiful. Yeah.

Laptop again, Matt. What? Oh, Father Bolt's. I don't know why I'm so ashamed of seeing my laptop, but Father Bolt says, Kim, have you listened to Restored the Glory podcast, specifically the six episodes on same-sex attraction? If so, thoughts, if not, what is your favorite cereal? If you haven't. Really? He said, if you haven't seen it, then much of it. I love. Well, I like to start with that.

The cereal, you know, so I'm kind of a grain free. I don't get a lot of time to work out. I forget it. Not a cereal. I love, well I like the cereal. Let's start with that. The cereal, you know, so I'm kind of a grain-free. I don't get a lot of time to work out. I keep that in. Forget it. No, just pretend that food has no negative effect on you and your body will look terrific no matter what you eat. Cinnamon Toast Crunch or Golden Gramps, yeah. See, the older I'm getting, I'm realizing

I cannot begin the day with sugar. Well. I crash a horrible day. You don't twist that. Okay, hold on. You just told her. You just told her. You would want to binge on that kind of crap. Me?

Salary? No, no, no. For me bagels. Bagels. But you didn't have cereal. It's not bagel. Yeah, you are distracting yourself right now. I read cereal and I thought breakfast.

That's what happened. Because it makes sense. Okay, then what's your favorite breakfast food? Oh Anything with like crispy I will not touch a hash brown if it's not crispy It's so this thing needs to be buttered up and like bacon. Oh, there's any floppiness to the bacon any now wetness Clear when it's clear Out it's got a literally melt in my mouth. It's sweet. There's a sweet. You're right because it gets a little too crispy I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it black over translucent.

Oh, black over, black over translucent. This is a conversation about bacon. That's right. Let's remind everyone just in case you jump in. No T-shirt. No T-shirt. We don't need a T-shirt moment again. Oh my gosh.

We had a moment where we were talking about colors and T-shirts and we all three realized suddenly that this was going to take a very out of context. Yeah, it could go bad. But on to the- Have you listened to Restore the Glory? I have. What about the six episodes on homosexuals?

I do. I thought they were really amazing, to be honest. I know some of the people that were on them. And the one that actually got me the most was when they had the gentlemen that actually walked with Dr. Bob. I haven't heard these.

Oh, it was incredible. But that one got me the most and it just hurt my heart for him. It really did. It wasn't in a shame on him, not shame on Bob, but the gentleman, I'm forgetting his name, but he disagreed with a lot, but it just hurt me. It felt like he he strived so much

to find the goodness of God, and it felt like he just couldn't find it instead of just like resting and receiving the goodness of God. And so I like, actually every once in a while, I'll pray for him. He seems like a great guy. Like I believe we could actually be friends,

but that one hit me the most. I love the testimonies, you know, of the different ways the Lord's worked. But that one, that one got my heart the most. Yeah. So everyone watching, both Kim and I, huge fans of Restore the Glory podcast. And if you are not familiar with that, be, oh,

those are, you should start listening to that podcast. You would love it. Oh, gosh. If you wouldn't love it, you should love it. And you will be made to love it. If you wouldn't love it. If you wouldn't love it, you should love it and you will be made to love it. Well, if you wouldn't love it. Gently. If you don't love it,

God's trying to show you something. Am I being threatened suddenly? Yeah, sorry, that turned. Weird, real quick. But yeah, Bob Shoots, we love Bob and his book, Be Restored, is something we would recommend. Amazing. Actually, could we put links to Restore the Glory podcast?

Yeah. He's already on it. Oh, of podcast? Yeah, he's already on it. He's already on it. All right, we got a question here. He probably Googled my mom already. I brought her up a lot. I could, if you want it. Don't.

This is the last time, this is a true story. The last time somebody said I couldn't find something based on the amount of information they gave us on the podcast, I found it and then as soon as I clicked off, I was like, by the way, this is who you were talking about. Oh, that's great. He didn't change camera angles for 20 minutes. Well, at least All right, Jennifer says Matt your channel has been a blessing for my life in my current time coming back to God

I've left and came back many times this time in me coming back I was struggling with so much more because while being in the world I thought that the answer would be to finally identify myself as bisexual. This comes from abuse I suffered when I was six years old by a female friend and an older man. So sorry, Jennifer. I never went all the way with a woman, but did have encounters. I feel like this attraction to females was what led me to pornography in many forms, the usual website. But I also actively sought books and movies that portrayed female and female relationships.

I actively sought to have a real sexual encounter with a woman as a married woman. For both of you, what advice do you have for me? Aside from obviously giving this to Jesus in prayer, which I've been doing. I still struggle with my desires whenever I see a beautiful woman out on the street or even on TV. Your many videos with other individuals who've dealt with this kind of thing have been really helpful, especially the one with Kelly. Oh, I think was her name, the one with Magdala blog, the Magdala Ministries, Rachel Kalaki, she's thinking of. Oh, I think I just heard from her.

She's the best. Yeah. Yeah. That's all regarding women in pornography, right? And the struggles. Yeah, she's great. I just talked to her the other day. Well, a month ago, but yeah.

Well, first off, amen for being so real. Like that is a beautiful start. It is something I did not do. So I just, I really celebrate that for her and in her because that's brave and it's not keeping it within. Yeah, I mean, we hear these things like, just pray about it, give it to God. And that's all true.

It's all true. Well, what does that look like? Right? See to me, when we're actively seeking, whether it be a woman, a man, a career, something, our hearts are longing for something, right? And so my thing would be, could you pray for the grace to find whatever you're longing for,

to be fulfilled in the way God wants to fulfill it? What if it's through a super close friendship? What if it's through healing of something, you know, like we said, restore the glory and things get brought up. So like the phrase that comes to me is God reveals to heal. And so there's a revelation of something going on and he wants to bring healing to that place. And so I just encourage, yeah, to seek the Lord in that, be specific. Like God, I have this desire for this, right, or for this woman or for this encounter. What am I really seeking? Can you give me the grace to the level

you know I'm able to receive it because like God reveals what he knows we can handle, too. So it's sometimes in layers. And so just asking the Lord, like really just conversational and seeking him and asking for the grace to receive what you might really be seeking that he would guide you in that. And maybe it's something that he desires. Are you going to jump up there right now? I want to get this book.

Oh, there you go. Yeah, I recommend it. Yeah. So we just mentioned Bob shoots and I would there you go. Yeah. I recommend it. Yeah. So we just mentioned Bob shoots and I would recommend this book. Where can I point it out? This one. Could you put a link to this in the description? If you're out there and you're watching me and you're struggling with, you know, compulsive pornography use or fornication or homosexual acts like we love your face so much. And if you were here, we'd both hug hug you if that wasn't weird for you.

No I'd do it even if it was weird. She'd do it even if it were weird me as a father. How does it feel like? It wouldn't be alright. Yeah don't do that. No. But we yeah like I think that's like vulnerability is the most beautiful human trait. Yeah.

And there's nothing that I think a human could say to me in the proper context of sharing our hearts. If anything like this woman I just I love this woman just for sharing her heart so beautifully. But this book be restored healing our sexual wounds for Jesus' merciful love. If you're struggling with this stuff, please get this book. Okay. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. That was extremely and it led me to restore the glory.

Jackie would tell me, I'm Kim. Have you heard to restore the glory restore the glory? I'm like, stop it. So, you know, but after reading that book and really letting the Lord into some places that I had no clue were closed off. I went into the podcast. That's begun to reveal more and deeper. I actually started going to counseling and there's been so much beauty coming forth. The Lord's bringing so much from that. And it's not just one thing. That's where I think we're like, I just need to go to mass more. I need to

do this. Silver bullet. It's everything because it's, it's living just one thing. That's where I think we're like, I just need to go to mass more. I need to do this Silver bullet. It's everything because it's it's More beautiful life and fully integrated. Yeah friendships are important. Rest is important Yeah excitement joy, right struggle suffering all of it. Another book comes to mind Matt that has been Really pivotal and I don't know if it will apply to this this woman who just asked the question But I feel like I'm supposed to bring it up. It's called Surrender to Love. It's not a Catholic book, but it's written by this Christian gentleman, David Benner, and it is unbelievable. God used it to help re kind of break up some of the false foundation that I had not that the Catholic Church did, but just false foundation where Satan came and sowed in.

Surrendered to love. You put that up there too. Unreal. Unreal. If you struggle, if you, of course he does, if you struggle with striving, earning, deserving, just not being able to just humbly receive what you did not earn, that book will take a straight bullet to the thing that's got you thinking you need to earn it. And so it's beautiful. I think it ties in.

It's integrated into a lot of what we're talking about. Have you heard me share my anecdote about Bob shoots? No. Okay. But I'm excited. This is going to be on Pines for the Coin. It's bingo. Because I mentioned this a lot. Right. So I'm moving to Steubenville. And two and a half years ago, my wife was so sick. She was hospitalized three times. The kids were adjusting. We didn't have a house. It was the most stressful time of my life. And I was in a terrible place.

And Bob was texting me about endorsing this book. And as you can see, there is a little endorsement on the back from me and I just wasn't responding cause I was busy and stressed out. And then one day, cause I'd been on his healing the whole person retreats. I've been as a change my life. Jesus changed my life through that retreat. Anyway, one day he writes, how are you doing, Matt? And I wrote back, I want to smoke pot and listen to Radiohead.

So not great. Love the honesty. That's right. Smoke pop, right? Radiohead. Oh, Radiohead, so I can cry in a corner about how disappointed I am. Yeah, baby.

Anyway, he wrote back, can we pray? Probably. We started meeting weekly for an hour, praying and going through some things. And this probably went on for about five months of us doing this. The Lord did such beautiful work in my heart. I might share more of it after this if you want.

But to his credit, it was like two weeks in, I was feeling so guilty for him taking this time. He's a busy guy. He runs a ministry. Can't give him one sentence. What's that? I gave him one sentence. No, I gave him the sentence before this, but I thought to myself, I got to pay this guy. Like he's a therapist and I should probably go to therapy, evidently. Yeah, all of us, probably.

All of us. So I said, can I please? And I asked him, I offered him money in a way I knew he could accept. Not be like, you want to pay you some crap? Do I need to can I please? And I asked him, I offered him money in a way I knew he would, he could accept not be like, you want to pay you some crap? Do I need to like walk in? It was like, how can I like, please bless your ministry? And he was just like shocked. He's like, no, Matt, that's not what this is about. You know, he's amazing.

I love Dr. Bob Schuetz. I've never met him. I went to the healing, the whole person. Sister Miriam was there as well. Such a my goodness. Just after our prayer time with sister Miriam, like my love, I'm calling your mother from now on. Right. So she's mother Miriam to me. Yeah. I love that woman. Yeah. Yeah.

And if anyone offends her honor, I will stab them. For legal reasons, that is a joke. I'm glad he said it. Yeah. You could you could stand by prayer. You know, you can stand by prayer. Stab them with a knife. Do you know how often I have to do that? I would imagine. Yeah, you could you could you could stand by prayer. You know, you can stab by prayer. Stab them with a knife. You know how often I have to do that? I would imagine. Yeah, nonstop. Very frequent increases. But to be clear, I meant with a blade.

No prayer. No prayer. No metal blade. Of prayer. Of prayer. I don't agree. Yeah, we're just going to keep saying it. Everything he's saying is in Minecraft. Right. OK, so hold on. Here's the thing that gets me. What I just heard you say was Bob bared your burden with you. That doesn't mean you can't pray with each other. It doesn't mean you just have to sit and not, but like, are you going to let someone just express, express where they're at, what they're feeling and then walk it out with them, which means prayer,

which means it doesn't mean you just have to be quiet and never share. I also think, I think it was Bob that said this, Dr. Bob, is we wouldn't have to have therapists and counselors if we knew how to love one another, if we knew how to bear one another's burdens. I have to go every week and pay a stranger. And I'm so thankful. I'm like, I love you. She's like, that seems inappropriate, but I love you too.

You know? But do you know what I mean? Like I have to pay someone to listen to me. I mean, I think that's true. But you know, there are things that your therapist knows that your best friend can't because there is something to being trained as a therapist. For sure. I'm just saying if there were intact families where we loved each other, then I think we could put therapists out of a business. Yeah. Well, I think they're good listeners.

Now, it doesn't mean that there's not much more to them because clearly there is, but they really have to be in order for me, in order for them to be a good therapist, they got to be a good listener and hear what's really going on. Don't you think a big part of this is realize this is that line from Julian of I never know if it's Norwick or Norwich. Look it up. And it says she says all will be well and all will be well and all manner of things will be well. Like when you know that to be the case then you can sit with somebody and not be overwhelmed. Because it's not on your shoulders. God wants them. You do. I was chatting with a woman who I love recently. She's such a good woman. If she's watching this love you won't say your name because I don't want her to feel her name is Kate Lesniewski.

Do you know Bob Lesniewski? His wife said this to me. She's so lovely. And she said like when she had kids and she was raising him and she said, she was just so afraid that her kids would be exposed to porn. Just that was her thing. And I can relate to that because of my own past. And she said there was one day where she realized like, God is bigger. And Jesus, my mom was just like, you just sort of my mom had the shoulders

and just focus on listening and loving and being present. Yeah. And my mom would say that she said, as much as I love you and as much as I see what you are going through, I had to trust that God was bigger than everything that was going on. And that doesn't mean now you're just, eh, whatever, right? Like Jesus isn't a hippie, but he ain't Hitler either. Like, let's not recreate who he is, but there's got to be a deep faith of, oh my gosh, this realization of truth that God wants your child with him for eternity more than you want him. And he wants you to write like so.

I remember Dr. Hahn saying this, and this is helpful for you and me to hear because we have these respective ministries. He says, never forget that God wants you more than he wants to use you. Amen. Thank you, Jesus. All right. And thank you, Scott Hahn. Thank you, Scott. All right. Ken says, I'm constantly hit with the line, quote, let people do whatever they want. It's not hurting you. How do or could adult couples in SSS a relationships affect hetero couples?

Any stats about what the normalization of SSA relationships are doing to the institution of marriage or is the thrust of our argument only that it does damage to the people in those SSA relationships? Or should the argument be centered around the normalization of adult SSA relationships leads to confusion, damage of any youth? That is way too smart for me. I'm gonna go with the two things that hit me and I love that. I'm all for people who can articulate well. I'm not necessarily one of those. But two things, our choices affect each other. I think Father Mike just said it. Your good works have effects on the world

and your not so good works, your not good works have effects on the world. One example, my niece, 15 years old, killed by a drunk driver. She didn't do a darn thing wrong. It was five o'clock in the evening. That person's decision to do something massively affected not only my niece, right,

but also my entire family in ways that, yeah, I mean, I'll be forever affected. I love that man. I'm praying for this young man. Visited him. My family's visited him in jail. Didn't even want to see him in jail, to be honest. He made a bad decision, you know, but in that,

and then I'm reminded of my first girlfriend Alabama So yeah, we consensually chose to be in a relationship. Well, we affected the husbands We chose to be in a relationship before we met each other. So there was direct effect We chose to be together which also meant she was not now available for someone else She's married to a man now with two or three children. My choice to stay with her would have kept those three children out of this world. To me, that has an effect. See, and I think that's what Satan wants.

He wants us to believe that our decisions only affect us. When that kid drank and got in the car. That's what he was believing I'm not gonna hurt. This is just what I chose to do. Yeah, I'm not gonna hurt anybody This is just me and guess what very different an hour later same with me. It's not gonna change anything She loves me. I love her. We're good. Thank God we broke up. She has a beautiful family I'm thankful for that. Her husband's very thankful that we're still not together, right? Her children wouldn't exist. Satan wants us to believe that our choices only affect us because then we won't see the massive effect it has on those around us, even those who we don't know. So I don't know all the stats. I bet he does, who Googles everything,

but I would imagine that there are massive stats. But I mean, obviously there's a there's a there's a coarsening and a degradation of society when you pretend that things that aren't are when you say two men can marry when they can't. And when you when you celebrate perversity in any form, you are you're attacking the basis of a healthy culture and the basis of what is true and now we don't have a truth We have something that's relative another thing. I thought of um, you know kids who are transitioning right now young young children born boys

Think the word transitioning we shouldn't use criticizing you because I use the word to but like transitioning we shouldn't use. I'm not criticizing you because I use the word to, but like mutilating, allow others to mutilate or something. Well, I'm talking about the children who are not doing any surgeries or hormones. But so my thing is my friend actually has a little boy and she and her husband have allowed him to be what he wants to be and what he feels he is, which he feels he's supposed to be a girl. So he's been living that way since he was, I think, in third grade, right? And I sat down to lunch with her and I would approach it differently now. And so

for sure the Lord's doing more work in my heart. But I said, do you let him choose what he's going to eat for dinner? And she said, no. Did you see where that was going? Right, I said, but you're gonna let him choose who he is, but he can't even pick his meal. That's gonna pass through him in about 12 hours, right? Eventually, even if he chose to eat Snickers. But you're gonna let him choose this.

What did she say? I'm done. I'm done with this meal. And I said, I did not mean that offensive. I'm just trying to bring some logic back to what can be so highly emotional. I know this is your little boy. I can't imagine, I'm not a mom.

I can't imagine how it feels, but I just want to remind you. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. You know, and- On behalf of that boy, thank you for saying that. And I don't know where he's gonna be in these years to come, but I guess what it does to me, and she said before in the conversation, she said, what does it affect if he wants to live as a girl?

What's it matter? My response? Well, when my nephew goes to school with him, but sees the girl and now has a crush on what he thinks is a girl and finds out it's a boy, is that going to bring some confusion to my nephew? Is he going to question if he's gay? Is he going to question why he has feelings for someone that is really a boy but dresses like a girl and acts like a girl? So yeah, the confusion that we're allowing children to embrace and live in is going to affect their students, everything. Yeah. And I'm not saying that's your goal or your plan, but I believe it is

Satan's goal. He's the author of confusion. Felicity says, Kim, thank you so much for your courage and sharing your story and all your videos on YouTube. I have two questions. The first is more simple than the second. First, what are your thoughts on Matt's new shirt for the month of the Sacred Heart? Did you see that? Oh, I thought you're I was like, it's blue. It's nice. I'd probably button it one more button, but You do you Immodesty, oh the reclaim the rainbow. No, it said reclaim the month with the same. What did you think about that shirt? Well, I think it's great I mean I didn't well, it's great for me because I didn't know the month of june was sacred heart month

So that really helped me I'm really big. Okay. So this she asked it simply I think it's great because I as a Catholic needed to be reminded I was on Lila Rose's show and it just so happened. We were amazing amazing And so we were talking about that June month and and so it came up about that And so I think it's not a coincidence. And so I think we need to be reminded what this month is within the church, right? Just like when all this other junk comes up and I don't mean that rude,

but like so many things are thrown of what the world says the month is for. That doesn't mean that all of it is bad and we need to reject it, but we need to remind what Christ's heart is in every day of our life. And so I love that. I think one thing is where I see people say

we need to reclaim the rainbow. I have a little bit of a hard time with that because I'm like, actually, we don't need to reclaim what is God's. We might need to be reminded. See, I hear that criticism because I received a lot of it, including a lot of offended Catholics, even just at the t-shirt.

But I guess by reclaim, I mean, it's not that Christ ever lost it or that God ever lost it. It's just that we lost it. We chose to forget it. That's what I think. I guess so. And everybody has different approaches. And I'm not saying one is better or one is is worse. But for me, I think with the call possibly on my life, at least in this season, is to connect with people that do not agree with me by not minimizing truth, because that's not going to be a great connection. We connect, but wow, you didn't stand in truth.

So what'd you really gain here? And so I'm not saying minimizing truth, but for me, like when I say remember the rainbow, right? To me, they're like, what does that mean? And now I have time for conversation because already the LGBT community, majority speaking, now I want to be careful to not clump everybody in, have their fists up, they're on defense,

they're so used to have to fight, do you know what I mean, and defend? That I wanna come in and be like, hey, actually we don't need to fight, but can you put your arms down? My arms aren't up, I'm not coming in with a fist, I'm not gonna try to reclaim or steal back or take back, can we talk?

Can we remember the rainbow? And they're like, what does that mean? Right? And then now it's conversational. See, what's beautiful about what you do is you get to do that to both sides. Both of us have our fists up. It's not just the idea, but whatever community.

And sometimes I have mine up too. So I want to disclaim that, but it could see a big war. And I feel like the Lord's like, hey, can we just, can we come in? And again, I think we can have a false sense of unity where we're just not talking about Jesus. We're not talking about truth, so we can all just get along, but then we're not really getting along.

We're really not, it's false. But I think we can. I was at the University of Madison, Wisconsin. It's known as like the most liberal, they call it the Berkeley of the Midwest. I had no clue, no clue it was that. I was just saying yes to something I felt the Lord called me to. And so there was the group Sex Out Loud. There was the group, the LGBT group. There

were these groups absolutely opposing zero question about that. This was the most incredible encounter I have probably had in a public setting like that where they could have come in. They could have vandalized the school like they did when, um, what-name-our-I-am-girl-yep came in but they didn't and you know what it was they were super confused they were like we don't know there was a there was a news article or like on the actual news for the local station that came out I had no clue by the way I go in I'm like you know and I just bring my way in but there was this this news thing that came out, I had no clue by the way, I go in, I'm like, do do do, you know? And I was just praying my way in. But there was this news thing that came out

and they said, we don't know if this chick is for us or against us. Because she's using the rainbow, there's seven colors by the way, but they didn't catch on to that seven colors, the fullness of the rainbow, well we won't unpack that all, but I don't ever use a six color rainbow,

the fall of man, the number six, that the LGBT community use. But they're like, there's a rainbow, the fall of man, the number six, um, that the, the LGBT communities, um, but they're like, there's a rainbow. She said love wins. She's using our terms. So we don't know whether we hate her or we love her. And I'm like, my goodness, the fact that they would admit that, see, do we love her or we hate her? See, they don't know me, but they're going to predetermine whether they love

me or hate me, whether I'm with them or against them. me, but they're going to predetermine whether they love me or hate me, whether I'm with them or against them. And so there was this kind of ambiguous advertisement that I do unashamed. I'm not ashamed to have the rainbow. It's God's promise that he will not abandon us. He will not flood the earth again. So in that, but so and then my thing said Q&A, all backgrounds, all different things welcome and come, let's talk. So this whole thing,

so they're like, we don't know what the hell to think of this, right? So they show up, right? They not one sign, not one protest, because they don't know if they need to protest. They would have to have two signs that one says, we hate you, and one says, yeah, we love you, you know? And they'd have to flip it in between because they didn't know. But man, when I showed up, and they were a little concerned because they said, it says Jesus. So we're pretty much thinking she's against us. And she wrote a book and we don't know what that book is and we don't have time to read it,

but it says, Restless Heart, my struggle with life and sexuality. So it seems like she's against us, but we still don't really know. So we're gonna go. So they go, all these talks of protests and this and that. Now again, I had no grid for this. I'm just literally driving in and I show up and I'm looking for the protest because I was told when I got to campus, oh we're gonna bring

you in through the back door blah blah. No protests. I'm like am I at the wrong building? Like security are you bringing me to the wrong place? They're like no. I was like huh okay. So I go in I'm sitting in the back of the auditorium. I'm putting my shoes on. I was bareium, I'm putting my shoes on. I was barefoot. I'm putting my shoes on. I didn't know that the girl I sat next to was from the LGBT club.

And I'm just tying up my shoes. I was like, hey, you excited? She's like, I don't know. And I was like, me either. And so she doesn't even know it's me, right? And my face is all over their campus, everything. And so we're just having this fun little banter back and forth, you know? And I was like, well, I better get going. I gotta get mic'd up.

And she just like looked at me. Wow. And I jumped onto the stage and then she goes and sits in the front row. They sat there so respectful. They didn't yell anything. They didn't disturb my talk. And all I did was say, Hey, listen, before I get started, remember, none of you have to be here. You chose to be here and so did I. We came with free will to be here and I just asked that you would honor that this is my life that I'm sharing. You may not agree with it.

You may not like it, but it's my life. Realize that I'm a human being in front of you. And if you can do that, I want to do the same thing. That's why I'm opening up half the time is me sharing the other half is me listening and responding. So I want to give you that same honor of respecting you as a human being even if I don't believe or agree with what you stand on. And I know it goes both ways. I'm telling you, you could have heard a pin drop in that room and then I said, and I know some of you may not believe in God,

or you may not believe in the God that I am preaching and sharing about, that I have had a real encounter with, but I ask that as I want to open in prayer, and I just ask that you would honor that it is something I desire. They were silent. These are college students, opposing what I stand for and what I build my life upon and they were so honoring

Many of us were crying as I shared my story as I did opened up for Q&A. It was the most respectful Disagreements and I stopped when the girl from the sex out loud group stood up and I said I just want to say I'm floored that you sat through 45 minutes of me sharing my heart and my experiences knowing that you do not agree and you didn't say a darn word and you stayed. I said I really respect that and I thank you for that and I could learn from you because I don't know if I could have done the same thing and I said so what's your question And she has like tears in her eyes and she's like,

well, and then she did, and it was, and so I don't share this as the only way. But see, we wanna be seen. And all I asked was that, I see you, can you see me? Can we just, can we set our guns down? Can we put our arms down? You don't have to be defensive right now, and I don't have to be either.

We can agree to disagree and that'd be okay. And we can actually even like each other, even though we disagree. But I'm not gonna minimize truth. And you don't have to either. And we can disagree. And it was, I'm like, okay, God, I learned so much from that. So much from that.

I'm not saying it was perfect. I'm not saying I did perfect and da, da, like, okay, God, I learned so much from that. So much from that. I'm not saying it was perfect. I'm not saying I did perfect and da, da, da, da, da. All I'm saying is we don't see a lot of that right now. We don't see a lot. And that school is known, known for protests. It's known for vandalism when they don't agree with something. And so the fact that I could go and they, even after I said, if you want to stay and talk after, I'm going to hang out here.

I said, we can grab pizza. I'm hungry. Like if we put you and Jason Everett together, we could change the world. Right. Don't you think what she's saying? He read Jason's new book on transgender ideology. Do you know Jason Everett? I know of him, but I don't know. He's so beautiful. Yeah. The book is really good, actually. I started reading it recently.

What's it called? What is it called? Male, female, other. Male, female, other. It's packed. It's kind of like what I love about what you're saying and what Jason said is this difference in approaches So like when the Dodgers have those fellas do these blasphemous dances Oh, and you see that there was nobody in that nobody in the stand. That's awesome. Everybody's happy to condemn them as degenerates but The pressure that as I say what they did was deeply evil that I've also got to back up what I'm saying.

But God, I do it, but it's just not even possible to say everything in a sound. Yeah. And that's the thing. And even I was actually recording with Lila that day that that was happening. And I had two things stuck with me on that is the reminder that God says that he wishes that none would perish and all would come to repentance. His wish, his desire, God's desire, who created each one of us, is that none of us would perish and all would come to repentance. Do I pray that?

Yes. Right, do I have his heart? That's right. That doesn't mean I have to celebrate or even pretend to not see what's going on. Yeah, so to not condemn loudly. Yes, or to not condemn. Right. But I not condemn the person you can you can condemn an action, but not the person. That person was created by God.

Are they living that out right now? I think that I often think that myself, like if I if there was a video of Joe Biden, who supports all sorts of evil things, being denied Holy Communion, would my first reaction, it probably would be joy. Like I'd be like, yes, fist pump. Now, I think I could do a fist pump in an appropriate way. Right. But that's not what I'd be doing. I'd be like, yes, he's embarrassed.

Right. So Lord, convert my heart so that I can love this old man who's about to go to his reward. Right. Exactly. The opposite. Yeah. And I think that's where it is. And one pastor once said,, it hit my heart. Do you weep for them before you speak to them? Have you wept for them? Because God, it's a lot more difficult to weep for people who seemingly know what they're doing. And I like it's kind of the abortionist. Like, how do I weep for the abortionist?

See, and the way I see it is they are so blinded by sin. And I like, it's kind of like the abortionist. Like how do I weep for the abortionist? See, and the way I see it is they are so blinded by sin. And I believe, I believe when Jesus died on the cross, he was weeping for them. While we were still sinners, he died for us. Didn't say while we kind of messed up, right? Like, and that's the reality. Wretched and separate. And we all are.

Even if I'm not living in a homosexual lifestyle, or even if I don't have those desires anymore, I'm still wretched and I'm still unworthy. It's a beautiful reminder. You're exactly right. Thank you. Yeah. Actually, I think this might well, this kind of goes along with it. Kyle asks, how do we find the balance between both trying to reach out to those with essay? Maybe you don't want to be reached out to like maybe certain people should be doing the reaching out and Kyle should just sit down and shut up. I know Kyle. So that was a joke. And he says, how do we find the balance between both trying to reach out to those

with SSA, but also protect our own families? It's incredibly difficult to try and be someone's friend when you're trying to keep their baggage away from your children. Yeah, my family actually did a really good job and it was hard. It was hard. So when I was dating a girl, my brother said, Kim, I'm sorry, but I'm raising two boys. I'm raising two young boys and I know you love them dearly. And this is just, this is hard when you bring your girlfriend.

And I was always super respectful. I was not the type that like had to prove something and kiss my girlfriend in front of people. And you know, so I, you would probably just think we were friends, you know? And I said, he said, but I can't have her over the two of you anymore. And I got that, but then I went a step further

and I said, so what about your friend, your best friend that's living with his girlfriend? Are they allowed? Are they allowed over? They're not married. They're not, but they're cohab, I mean, they've been living together, they're sleeping together, they're not quiet about it.

I said, now I understand it's not the exact same. You could tell your nephews, or your sons, my nephews, that this is Kim's good friend, because she is. You don't have to unpack that all to a five year old. Your job is to raise them up in truth. There are different and I think you'd agree with this. There are different levels of perversity in relationships. So I would be open to having a boyfriend and girlfriend come over in a way that I wouldn't two men coming over. No, because one relationship

could be set right. One can't. Well, I challenge you in that. OK. That actually I've been in relationships that it was physical. It was something I thought it was. It was distorted. Yeah. And the Lord restored it. And there's a friendship there. OK. Set right in that sense, but not on the trajectory. Yes, not of marriage. Right. Not of that, of course.

But I think that's where sometimes we lose hope for those within the LGBT community, but we have so much for those who are cohabitating or premarital sex and all that. And I think God has the same hope for both. And that's all I'm saying. So we do have to protect our children, but I actually, Lila asked this almost similar question. And I said, I think this is an opportunity as we see the world getting darker and darker. It's a time where we raise our kids up in the light and truth of Christ.

That when they go outside, a short snippet of an example, my nephew, I would talk to them about spiritual warfare. I'd talk to them when they were playing with Pokemon cards. I'm like, I'm not gonna get into all that. But I'm like, actually, do you know the real name? It's called Pocket Demons. And do you wanna be carrying those? Do you wanna be trading Pocket Demons?

And they're like, what's a demon? And so I started teaching them and showing them that even in their children's stuff, right? And so I would bring these things out as a godmother, as their, you know, aunt. And so they said, we want to, we want to get rid of... No, my little nephew said, well, I'm gonna sell them then. I said, well, hold on. If it's not good for you, you want to make a profit and sell it to someone else? And he's like, oh, well, let's burn them. I said, good idea. So we burnt the Pokemon cards and you know, just and it paid him back. My brother paid them money to give, to buy

like baseball cards or things that weren't, you know, as bad. And so anyways, the long, long version, the short version, is I would teach them of these things that I knew they were gonna start seeing in the world. I taught them about false gods, about Buddha and this and that. Not to lift those things up, but so they'd be aware. But I really, my goal was to raise them up in truth so that when they saw something that wasn't true, they knew it was false, right? I'm in Hawaii with my nephew. He was like seven years old. We walk into this shop. He pointed this thing, he said, false God! And it was Buddha. And I'm like, oh my God, I pulled his hand out.

I was like, yes, that is true. That is true. So I didn't have to shield him from it. I taught him and raised him up and he could call out what was false because he knew it was true. And I think this is what is coming, is we cannot escape.

It's the kids' shows, it's now in the schools. And fight for it, fight against it, absolutely. But also raise up, raise up the guy who studies currency of the United States, you've probably heard this, somebody called in and they're like, we don't get it. There's thousands of false bills. How do you possibly know at all in the moment? You have you know conquered and I know all the false bills two more come up three more come up 500, right? He said oh my god, I don't pay any attention to what's false. I focus on the truth I study it day in day out So the moment that something passes by I recognize it's not true

And that's what we need to be doing with our children The kids are gonna go to school whether or not bills get one or not. We pray that those bills fall flat, right? And that this is not indoctrinating children but ultimately they're gonna go somewhere in experience whether it's a coffee shop or something. And so have we raised them up in the truth so that they recognize for themselves this is false? No, you are a little boy. You're not a little girl. But it comes from them in a purity, not in a fear base, but a reality of what's going on. Yes, fight the cultural wars,

but we need to be building up temples of God as Satan is building up what he's doing, right? The kingdom of God is greater, and so are we building up and instilling that, and that does not mean don't fight. It doesn't mean don't break down other things or fight against things. But we need to be builders of the kingdom of heaven as Satan is actively building his kingdom. Well said. One thing I'm noticing among younger teenagers is

in a reaction to the propaganda that's being shoveled into their mouths, there's a real intensity pushback. I don't know if you saw this recently, there was some middle schoolers who chanted, our pronouns are USA, and I thought that was kinda cool, as they were tearing down these rainbow flags that were being pushed on them. But what I would suggest to parents is like,

if your child is old enough, show them this interview. Because I think that's really important, because as the LGTV, that's our short hand way of saying it, because it's too hard to say it all. As they get more aggressive, there's going to be this revulsion and this desire to overthrow it. We just have to make sure that while we're doing that, we don't forget these beautiful people. Correct. Root. Exactly. You know, who are like yourself, who have same-sex attraction. And so they can realize that this is not the face of my enemy.

This is a, yeah. Yes. And it doesn't mean that everyone is that. That's what we started talking about earlier, to be able to separate the agenda that is real and happening. And we need to fight against it with the Spirit of God and the person. And that's really hard to do. It takes immense grace and it takes the heart of God to actually give us that, to see the person it is.

I mean, look at it. You had people yelling and screaming at Jesus, right? That he's this, he's that, he's a blasphemer, he's this. And what did he do? What was his counter approach? Silence. You know? Yeah.

And we're so easy. You yell, I yell. You fight, I fight harder. And I'm like, is that what Jesus did? It doesn't mean he bowed down to this falsity that was happy, this perversion. He was crucified. And he forgave those who drilled nails through his hand. Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do. And I think we are in the mindset now, but they know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. Okay, those people knew they were nailing something through a person's hands. I'm with you. And I push back only in a way that I think you'll accept.

And that's that it's one thing to accept one's martyrdom or one's persecution. It's another thing to not speak up vigorously on behalf. I know you know this. I know you believe I just want to make it clear on behalf of the innocent who are being absolutely. we've been given a voice for a reason. Are we doing it from a place of compassion, not only for our children, but for all children and for that person? That's all I'm challenging us in. Not to not speak up, not to just be beat up

and just do whatever you want to do. It's going to happen, God's greater. No, I'm not taking that approach. I don't believe that is what is going to do it. But really when we're rooted in Scripture, when we're really going through the scriptures and we're reading Scott Hans or whoever's kind of commentary into this, watch how well-equipped we're going to become as we're rooting ourselves and grounded. And it's interesting because Paul would say it, be rooted and grounded in love. You could raise the

dead, but if it's not done in love, it's nothing. So I can win a war. I can win a war. I could take down the LGBT agenda, but if it wasn't done in love, it's pointless. That brings me to my knees because I need the Lord's help. I told you when I was little, I had a sharp tongue. That's probably still there. I could probably win a war, but do I have love? And I'm telling you, I need to pray because that is what I need grace for. I can get the words out. I can come back just as heavy and as hard. But where I need the Lord is to have compassion. And I don't got it. And I'm praying for it daily. And that's all

I'm putting forth. While we have these arguments or these discussions or these counter things, is it and can we really sit with the Lord and say, is this rooted and grounded in love for you, God, and ultimately for my neighbor? Yeah, 100%. Who's doing good work in this area right now that you would point people to? Here, maybe we'll get a litany of links, but I would love you just to bury us in an avalanche of excellent resources, videos. So I really like Eden Invitation. Now I'm going to disclose that I've never been a part of these groups like Courage, Encourage, Phenomenal. I've heard great things. I've shared it at some different groups and stuff with them. So courage and encourage through the Catholic Church.

You have Eden Invitation, which is a little bit for the younger generation up and coming. I think they do a real good job of community, talking about real things, working together. So that's another great one that's for non-Catholics as well. And then I'm a part, well, I have my own ministry, Overcome, which a lot of people reach out,

just, you know, I don't have a YouTube channel or any of that. I didn't even know it was on. Somebody's like, I love your YouTube channel. I'm like, I don't got one. Yeah. I think there's a lot of videos out there, of course. But Overcome was just really set because too many people were reaching out and I didn't know what to do.

And so it's just like another place. It's got some resources on there. What's the URL? Overcome, M-I-N. reaching out and I didn't know what to do. And so it's just like another place. It's got some resources on there. How's the URL? Overcome M-I-N, it's not M-E-N, it's not overcome men. It's overcome M-I-N like ministries.com. And that's just really has. Cool, it's in the description.

Yeah, there you go. And then I'm also part of an ecumenical group. So different walks of Christian life coming together with testimony, it's called Rainbow Revival. We feel a call to go out into public space. We do one event a year. So this year it'll be in Dallas, October 21st in Dallas.

And that's Rainbow Revival. And it's a group of all of us who have stories of how Jesus has and continues to transform our lives out of one identity into sonship and daughtership in him. And so, yeah, it's just an amazing story. So that is a great thing. We stand on, my goodness, everybody is out there marching and doing all this.

So we do, we pick a public place, it's free. It is not free for us. We have to pay and none of us get paid, but we try to raise the money every year to do one event in a new city that we feel the Lord is leading us to. Like I said, Dallas this year, and we proclaim, we have praise and worship, we have prayer ministries, we have different churches, the Catholic Church, the evangelical, the non-denom for where people are at as they are seeking the Lord and he's bringing even more fullness to them. And so we do praise and worship, testimonies,

and then prayer time after, and then we do a march just like other people do. So we do a march. It is not a loud in your face, gaze will burn in hell kind of thing. It's freedom in Christ is so nice. It's the blood of the lamb, by the blood of the Lamb we have overcome.

We're singing worship songs through the streets, the police shut down, just like they do for pride festivals. The difference is we don't have 50,000 people attending. We have about 500. And it's not just for those who have come out of the LGBT lifestyle. It's for the body of Christ to stand on what God has said about family, about marriage, about sexuality. And so I pray that Dallas is a bigger group, not so that we have a bigger group, but so that we come together as the body of Christ and unite in what God is, hearts united in. If you remember as the data approaches, text me, I would love to get the word out more and more.

Oh, for sure. Oh, please, yeah. So Rainbow Revival is another great ministry to go to, to just connect. It's so important to have resources. Dr. Bob Schuetz, as we continue to say, different levels of healing, Unbound, Neil Lozano, another great for just see what the Lord's doing on the interior when we tend to see some exterior stuff, to ask the Lord, what's going on inside? What made that fruit grow? You know, so I always suggest that too too but ministries are great to connect with MJ

mentioned that Vimeo oh yeah here's my heart documentary here's my heart a surrender of love I think is what it's called okay so you can find that we'll have that on the she's part of the board of Rainbow Revival as well myself and two gentlemen that were actually shot at the Pulse nightclub shooting, however many, seven years ago, one of our board members, Angel, he was shot six times and lived amazing testimony, amazing testimony. And we remember, see, we don't uplift testimony

because it's just like about us, it's because the scripture says that testimony is prophecy into someone else's life. So as we testify, remember in scripture, it says that we are overcome by the blood of the lamb, not our but by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. So it doesn't say the thought of our testimony

or the, you know, just remembrance, yes, amen, but the word of our testimony. So as we testify to the thought of our testimony or the, you know, just remembrance. Yes. Amen. But the word of our testimony. So as we testify to the goodness of God and what he has continued to do in our lives, it is speaking prophetically over others. And so we really stand firm in the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. Beautiful. Yeah. And then I saw your video on another website leaving LGBT. I think it was. Yeah, it was a church that brought us in. It was actually all of us, the board of freedom of Rainbow Rive Rainbow Revival, which used to be freedom. It's called once LGBTQ. I think.

I see. I'm going to lose a lot of stuff. So the YouTube channel is Christ Alive by the look of it. That's the church out in North Carolina, I think, that brought us out and did a whole panel. Okay. We'll see if I can find it. I think it's once LGBTQ or something like that. Yeah. They put a whole website together for it. It's on my website.

It's on Overcom. I think there's a link into that. Last year, I interviewed a fella. His name was, what was his name? The guy on the shroud, Father Andrew Dalton? That was not last year That was the first interview we did this year. That was this year. I Don't know how many views that's had I it's our most viewed live

My point is that I do so many of these interviews and sometimes I like Lord just use one and I know that the Lord is Gonna use this interview and if this was all I did this year, I could go have a nap like, thank you. This is beautiful. And I ask that those who are watching, if you if you agree with me, then help me share this video, not for clicks or whatever, but so that souls can encounter this like push, like push, like push, like push, like push, like, oh, click, like oh click like click like push like is that what the Gen Z is the same I mean if you're on a phone you're not really

clicking you see oh I heard the other matter I don't know if this is true that whereas we do this somebody told me that your generation do this no is that not true yet no yet okay no well then it's gonna be this. Yeah. Cause really you don't even hold, or it's this. Cause it's now from your wrist, right? Do you have a smart watch?

No. I can't imagine anything worse. My watch doesn't even have the right time right now. Let alone doesn't encamp my phone. So now I love, I'm very thankful for phones. I'm thankful for social media, but I'm on there, but I don't do a lot with it. If the Lord can use it, but I, it, for me, I can get thankful for phones. I'm thankful for social media, but I'm on there, but I don't do a lot with it If the Lord can use it, but I it for me I can get sucked into it So I'm like, it's just better to stay away from it for me. So, amen. Thank you everybody for watching. Yes

Thank you for being here. Thank you Thursday Anything else you dog we good. I mean you dog. I got you dog. I said I got you It's not it's not I got you it's I got you I don't I got you dog. I said I got you. I got you. It's not I it's not I got you. It's I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. But I made fun of my accent backwards. Oh, no, that's better. Oh, yes. I've got you dog.

Please stop talking like that. Hey, man, you got anything else? No. All right. I'm going to push this button now. Bye, everybody.