Pints With Aquinas - From Muslim to Catholic: Islam Is the Heresy of Heresies (Ismail Youssef) | Ep. 518

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Ismail Youssef, also known as Ish of Arabia, a former Muslim who left Islam to embrace Catholicism, rejecting what he sees as the contradictions, injustices, and oppressive teachings of Muhammad. Now, he dedicates his life to exposing the flaws of Islam and bringing the truth of Christianity to Muslims worldwide. Ismail produces hard-hitting videos that challenge Islamic doctrines and reveal the historical and theological problems within the faith. He is currently writing Thirst for a Life-Giving Water, a powerful account of his journey out of Islam and into the freedom of Christ. His work is a stand for truth, no matter the cost. Youtube: @ishofarabia Instagram: @ishofarabia 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early, score a free PWA beer stein, and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉 College of St. Joseph the Worker – Earn a degree, learn a trade, and graduate without crippling debt: https://collegeofstjoseph.com/mattfradd 👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd  💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com

Violence is 100% intrinsic to Islam. One of the last phrases that Muhammad said is Amrita anu qataloona an-nass hatta an yuqloona la ilaha an-nallah That I have been commanded to fight the world till everyone says there is no god but Allah. It is 100% intrinsic. In the same way, love is 100% part of Christianity. We have to stop viewing Islam as another religion.

There has to be a gathering of Christians saying this is a heresy and it needs to be stopped. That's like the vision of Islam is to take over the world, basically by any needs necessary to the extent that they will lie. And there's this concept called taqiyya, which means like hiding the truth. So this is a concept that you can use in order to forward the Muslim agenda. I've seen it in debates all the time where I see a Muslim say something in a debate and I know for a fact he is lying and he knows he's lying. Ishmael, great to have you on Pines with the Quinus. Thank you so much.

Now we have to acknowledge this thing that you've brought me. This is single malt whiskey. Yep. Age 10 years. Canadian spirit of Nova Scotia. Thank you. It's very nice. Promise country, Nova Scotia, yeah. There you go.

This is great. And my very classy whiskey glasses we have. Thanks so much, man. Yeah, of course. How did this happen? You reached out to me over Instagram, or somebody did telling me about your story. I looked into you. It was impressive.

I have a friend in Scotland, her name is Shannon, and she follows my stuff. So I have like a very small ministry I kind of do that's trying to evangelize to Muslims. God bless you. And she follows it because she lives in Scotland and over there we see the like Muslim communities growing significantly in like the UK. And can I open this? That's the question. That's a great question. I have no idea. I actually was in the duty free at the airport. I didn't know which one to pick. Yeah, for sure. So I was in a duty free and I was texting my friend, his name is Ken, and he's really into whiskey.

So I was like, which one should I get him? Yeah, and he's like get this one and he showed it to me and it was actually wasn't in the duty-free Okay, so I was just like I'm just gonna get something Nova Scotian Okay, I saw that I grabbed it right away and I was like, alright, hopefully it's good So yeah, is Keith still a big beer Keith is you Canada? Yeah I remember when I was there was like the thing back in 2002 so what I wanted to do was bring Keith but My friends who may be listening to this right now said don't bring Keith is not the best beer

Which I disagree upon I think Keith is the best beer. Okay, but yeah, so that was my first plan. Yeah Well, this is great, man It's a long Yeah, it is. Thank you so much. Yeah, beautiful. Alright. Cheers. Yes, cheers to you.

Praise God. Lovely. That's pretty good. So you are a convert from Islam. I am. That's wild. You want me to begin from the beginning? And when you say convert, you don't mean like, I read some of the Quran once, but...

No, no, no. I grew up Sunni Muslim in Egypt. Like I read full like classical Arabic. The whole nine yards. Yeah. I am legitimately so looking forward to hearing your story. I mean, I don't want to praise myself when people hear my story, they really love it. And I'm really grateful to God that people are able to hear my story and have such a huge like

moment almost and like appreciate what God's doing in the Muslim world. But yeah, I'm excited to share it too. So okay. Well, let's begin at the beginning. All right, I'll just go through where I'm from, I guess. Sure. So, like, I was actually born in Halifax, Canada. I was born to my mom, who actually grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and my dad, who is from Egypt, and he grew up a Sunni Muslim. And for a long time, He grew up a Sunni Muslim. And for a long time, my mom didn't care about religion. So she grew up in the JW religion.

And it seemed that for some reason that faith didn't really resonate with her. It seemed very pushy on her. So when she was like 14, she left religion like altogether. And then she got married to my dad at the age of 17. And my dad was around 27, 28. So there's a huge age gap there. But they actually met at a wedding, which is interesting. So my dad went to Halifax from Egypt to be at this wedding. And they met there. And I never remember if it was three weeks or three months. But it was something like that where they're like sitting there and they're like, should we get married?

And they're like, yeah, it's like, how about next Friday? So they're like, okay. So they went, they went and got married like the next Friday. Yeah, like after like a couple of weeks of knowing each other. Whereabouts was this? This was still in Halifax. Yeah. But my dad had to go back to Egypt for a long time.

There's like political issues, there was some business issues. So he went back to Egypt, I think for a few years and then came back to Egypt for a long time. There were political issues, there were some business issues, so he went back to Egypt, I think, for a few years and then came back to Canada and my mom eventually moved to Egypt with him. So my mom kind of became a Muslim, not by faith, she didn't believe in it at all, but because of the practicality of living in Egypt, especially because having children,

so eventually she had my brother, then she had me. And in Islamic law, if a Christian, a Muslim have kids, if the wife is still alive after the husband dies, she doesn't get inheritance. The kids will. And at the time, Egypt was enforcing that law. And she wanted to be able to have a good life in case anything happened to my dad. So she went down to the Al-Azhar mosque, which is like the huge mosque in Egypt, got a paper

saying she became a Sunni Muslim, called it a day and she's been a quote unquote Muslim ever since. And yeah, and she, I would say she thinks Islam is better than Christianity, because it makes more rational sense to her in the sense that like there's one God, God's not a human being, he has to do good work to get to heaven. She does know like the bad things about it and all the political issues and the life of like the prophet and we can get into that later, But it seems to not bother her because she thinks every religion is corrupt, and she just kind of lives this like life where religion is very useless, but just believe

in God. Then there's my dad, and my dad is a very developed Muslim, so he prays five times a day. Pete And this is in Halifax? They're still together? Jared They're still together. So, we're not born yet, let's go back up. So, my dad has been a devout Muslim, she converts to Islam because they have my brother, and the whole inheritance thing, it was like just easier for my mom to get inheritance. And what happens is, my dad seemed to like have this switch where he actually wasn't super devout developed and almost overnight he became very developed Muslim. So my mom would tell me how he came home one day and

grabbed all the alcohol from the fridge and just threw it down the drain. And then he actually like was considering like the divorce. Also this is just for my family. Sorry, I'm telling all this. They were considering divorcing, but um... What was it that happened in your father's life? Did he ever tell you? I think he met another Muslim who had a very radical concept of the religion and wanted to push him into being very radical.

And it worked almost, and he had this moment where he just gave up cigarettes, he gave up alcohol, he was like, we're only going to eat halal meat. Maybe it's not that bad to have a second wife. And this was hectic on my mom. So my mom is from Nova Scotia, Canada, small town, Canadian. The only immigrant they have is the one Indian guy down the street who owns like the supermarket. That's all they've known. And then all of a sudden she's married in the middle of the Middle East and my dad's freaking out about Islam. So it was a huge flip for her. And

it's just interesting how my dad went through his phase and it cooled down a little bit, but it never went back to normal. So till today, he's a very devout Sunni Muslim. And so he'll actually wake up every morning and go to the mosque just to pray morning prayer, which is not a requirement at all. You have to only go to the mosque like on Fridays, but he goes like morning prayer, evening, sometimes night prayer, he'll go. He's like one of the most religious Muslims I know. Pete Yeah.

Jared And so then he had my brother and he had me. And they actually named me Ismail, or in Arabic, Ismail, because my name means the father of the Arabs in Arabic. And it also means God listens. So, they thought it was very poetic and very beautiful that like Allah was listening to me. And I was kind of like their pride almost. So I was born with a disability, I'm visually impaired. And because of my visual impairment, my dad saw that God would be very easy on me in my life. He thought that God would almost relax any punishments He'd give to me. I say like, I have sinned, I ate pork, or I fornicated. God will not be as harsh on me because I have an excuse because I'm disabled. And so, I

was almost like the pride of the family. And yeah, and my brother, I guess, he was also very cherished, but there was something unique about me, and there was something almost like, we have to protect Ishmael, we have to make sure he's always like in the faith, he's always going to be okay, his health is going to be okay. And so I went to a Muslim academy in Halifax, it's still around today, and I went there for just like kindergarten, so like till the age of five. And my dad basically came to the decision that they weren't teaching me anything, which they weren't. They basically were like, the Quran says, God exists, go to bed. They were very much like, we're not going to teach these five-year-olds

about Islam. So my dad's like, we're going to go back to Egypt so he can learn about Arabic and the Quran and stuff. So I went to an American International School. So, your whole family moved back. Yes. So, my brother and I can learn Arabic. Wow. And we can be able to read the Quran. With your mom? Yes. So, at this time, like, they wanted us to be born in Canada, because Canada is a safer country. And my dad was thinking that because there's a Muslim school in Halifax, it would

work out, but it just wasn't good. So, they came to the decision to go back to Egypt. And so, I think I was around five when we went back and I don't remember this, it's just from like my mom telling me. And I remember one time when I was six that a Muslim cleric came to the house to try to teach us the Quran. a Muslim cleric came to the house to try to teach us the Quran. And I think this was the first time I had doubts in Islam, was actually at six. I actually never told anyone this, but he said something about the Jews. And it was like something about how anyone who is of Jewish ethnicity or Jewish religion, not like they're less, but like their blood is like more halal. Like their blood is halal, meaning permissible. And even my dad was like, this is a little much.

What do you mean their blood's more permissible? Well, and like, he was going on about this. And then my mom, like being from like the West, she's like, this can't go on in our house. What is this guy teaching them? Like, so my dad's like, yeah, you can't come back anymore. And that was the first time I was like, being from the West, she's like, this can't go on in our house. What is this guy teaching them? So my dad's like, yeah, you can't come back anymore. And that was the first time I was like, I don't know what that was about, but that was weird. The second time happened when I was around eight or nine, and it was in Canada. So every

summer I'd go back to Canada to visit family. And we're sitting in a Walmart parking lot. And I asked my brother, we're waiting, because we didn't want to go into the Walmart, we're sitting in a Walmart parking lot. And I asked my brother, we're waiting because we didn't want to go into the Walmart, we're tired, and my mom's just getting groceries. And I'm just like, do the Christians think God became a man? And my brother's like, yeah, something like that. Like, you know, like, and like, this is just what he said. I'm not saying this is, it sounds blasphemous, but it's like the words of a 12-year-old kid. Like, oh, I guess like God had sex with Mary and then they had Jesus.

I was like, so is that like God or the Son of God? And it's like, don't worry about it too much. And I was like, I'm kind of worried about it. I will actually. I will worry. I'll think about it for a second because what do you mean God produced God? So I thought about it and I was like, can God enter the universe? Probably if He's God, He can do that. But it was just like a thought and then it went away. And then I remember probably around 12, this was another hint. So, God keeps saying these hints throughout

my life. And around 12, this was a big hint. We had a teacher, and I'm going to say his name because I think he deserves props. He was a secret Protestant missionary at the school in Egypt. So, I went to an American school there. Come on, you're kidding me. He was a math teacher, but he hinted about the gospel every time he could. Friggin' love Protestants! Dude, they're amazing. They're amazing at doing this! We've got to do this better! But it's just like, he would say like, oh, I love how Muslims are so devoted while praying to God, like, five times a day. It's amazing. And it's like, but how do you learn about love? And then we'll talk about love, and he'd be like, yeah, I just, there was just one

quote how, like, this guy said, even if, even if your enemies hate you, you gotta love them. He'd quote the scriptures in a way that like... Wow! So you're telling me this Protestant white missionary infiltrated a Muslim school to support... The school's American, but... Picky, pardon?

The school's an American school in Egypt. But for Muslims? It's like 90% Muslim. Yeah. Okay. But if he was out and out about being a Christian... He'd be kicked out of% Muslim. Yeah. Okay. It's like, but if he was out and out about being a Christian, he would be kicked out of the country. Yeah. 100%. So he would do that. What's his name? His name is Tyler Roche. And I bless you, Tyler. I would love to see him again. Like I know,

I remember he stays from Louisiana. And if he is still there, like he can find me online, reach out to me. Everyone I've ever met from Louisiana has been amazing. So that confirms my already bias about Louisiana. Oh, yeah, no, he was great. And he would like... Yeah, so what would he do? It wasn't even math. Like, we're learning about like algebra and like 10 minutes into the class. Three persons, one God. Yes, yeah, something like that. And I'm like... And then there was this girl at the school who began to like change her mind about religion. In what direction?

Like to Jesus. Because of him? Yes. So they started meeting and I'm gonna keep her name anonymous, I don't know where she's doing in her life, but she would meet with him. And eventually, her parents found out and then they contacted the school, then they contacted the Egyptian government, and they kicked him out of the country. Wow. I never heard of him again.

But now, looking back on my life, knowing the Scriptures, I know what he was talking about. I know that he was quoting Jesus' words, but indirectly, and saying things like, wouldn't it be better if... It says in the Quran, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but wouldn't it be better if like, you know, it says in the Quran, like an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but wouldn't it be better if like, you know, if someone punches you, you just like, show them love. Turn the other cheek. Yeah, like there's a hint in there and I'm like, yeah, it would be better, Mr. Tyler.

It's good. Good. Yeah. It's a great insight. It is a great way of doing it. We learned no math that year. But like algebra, the textbook was useless. Yeah, yeah, and I Loved it. It was great. And that was the first hint because I started recognizing that his points

Even though I wasn't really sure where I was coming from Were better than the the faith I was growing up with so like I for an eye tooth for a tooth That like if I keep doing that eventually the end of the world like the world is gonna end. It's like it's mutually assured destruction we're all gonna kill ourselves and it seems that like whatever he was saying seemed correct and that was grade seven and then there was grade eight and there was someone else and I don't know if the school like the American school planned this Out it was just luck of the draw but my history teacher

His name is mr. Hurst. I forget his first name did the same thing come on in history class and He would be like, yeah, we always learn history from one perspective, you know, like here in the Middle East We learn about the Americans invading Iraq and all this stuff But I like to go deeper into ancient history Here in the Middle East, we learn about the Americans invading Iraq and all this stuff. But I like to go deeper into ancient history. In the Roman Empire, they colonized this place called Palestine. I'm like, and I don't know what's going on, but now I'm looking back, I'm like, oh my goodness, he was basically telling me about, and he'd use Muslim phrase, like, you know, like, Isa, Jesus lived during that age. And what did he preach? And then all of a sudden, the kids would be like, oh, you know, he said, love people, like, submit to Allah, whatever. And then he was like,

that's a good, like, he, I don't know where he got these people, but every class, like, every grade, there was like one missionary. And I don't know what happened to him, but eventually he had to leave Egypt as well, maybe for similar reasons. And then I think the biggest one was grade nine. And his name was Mr. Norman Lines, I think. And he, I forget where he's from, but he told my mom that he was a born-again Christian and that he was in shock about the hypocrisy in the Middle East where Muslims in general, not all obviously, will say like, yeah, we have to stay pure before marriage, but then they will, then he'll walk in the hallways of the school and see people

having sex. And he's like, what, like, do you guys not believe this religion? And he would call people out and he's like, and he was very straightforward. He was like, my religion says this, your guys doesn't. Like, you guys need to practice what you preach. Maybe because we're older and grade nine now, like maybe he's like getting harsher and he didn't last long. I feel like someone complained, but like eventually he had to leave. And that was my last year in Egypt for school. And then I went to Canada for high school. And at this time... What was your opinion of Christians generally at that point?

I loved them. Okay. I generally thought they were amazing. And your only experience of them was these teachers? Well, there's the Coptics in Egypt. Yeah, yeah. And they've never treated me bad. And you knew them though.

You were friendly with them. Yes. God bless the Cops. The Coptics. Love the Cops as well. And they know that they can bad. And you knew them though, you were friendly with them. Yes. God bless the cops. The cops as well. And they know that they can't say a lot in public. And there's huge discrimination against Coptic Christians. I know people whose villages were burnt down. I know people who like their grandparents were murdered by like just someone finding under a Coptic. Were you ever friendly enough with them such that you were going to their houses and interacting?

Yes. And to backtrack, I guess there was another time, there was this guy needs to be shouted out, his name is Imad Ramzi. And he, we were messing around in like grade three and I don't know if we were wrestling, but something like fell out of his pocket and I took it. And in Arabic, it was says like, prayers to the theotokos. And I looked at it, I was like, what is this? And he was like, well, the theotokos started telling me about who Mary is. And I'm just in grade three, I don't know what's going on. But he had the courage to tell me it.

He could have said, oh, it's nothing, and put it in his pocket. And after I had my conversion, I actually contacted him to tell him that I became a Christian, because he deserved to know. conversion, I actually contacted him to tell him that I became a Christian because he deserved to know. Like, and now he's living in California, so he's in a good, safe place, but he's very excited and he follows me and like every like once a year I talk to him, see how he's doing. Wonderful. Yeah, so yeah, there was all these signs. And what really bothered me is that they never said anything bad about the Muslims.

Not once. The Coptics never said anything bad. But every time I was hanging out with Muslims, every time, it was the word, nidges was like thrown around, meaning unclean. Okay. They were unclean. Why? Well, they think God is a man.

That's the biggest blasphemy. That's unclean. They eat pork. They're unclean. Theyemy. That's unclean. They eat pork. They're unclean. They drink. That's unclean. They, I don't know, just anything. They'll come with anything to say they're unclean. But every time I'm with the Christians, the Coptic Christians, are you in the missionaries? They never attacked the people. They never said anything bad about Muslims. Probably because they would be persecuted. That's true, but I think they trusted me enough. That they would have.

That they would have if they could. But their faiths kind of like... It goes back to that version of Ephesians where we fight against spirits and principalities, not against like blood and flesh and human beings. They knew that it wasn't the Muslims' fault. Is there something else going on? And we can talk more about what I think that is. But so all those things happen.

And at this point, I'm getting like, grade nine was a shift in my faith, where I was actually getting more and more radicalized. And this- What does that look like? It looks like when the Charlie Abdul attacks happened in France, where they drew the draw Mohammed thing, my first instincts were, they kind of deserved it. That was my first thought as a 15 year old.

And I don't, like, I can say all- And you're living in Halifax at this point? This is right before going from Egypt to Halifax. Like it happened, I think in April and the school year ended in May, June, so we're going to go to Halifax. And that it happened, I think, in April, and the school year ended in May, June, so we're gonna go to Halifax. And that was my first thought, and it spooked me, because I was like, why did that come to my mind? That my first thought was they deserved what they were getting because they made fun of Muhammad. And it almost felt like it wasn't me thinking, because I was a pretty rational person. I was talking to... I knew people who were atheists, who were Christians.

I knew gay Muslims, and I had no problem with them. But something about offending Muhammad triggered me in a way when I was 15. Then I went to Canada, and in the Western world, everything's on the table to make fun of. So going to a high school in Canada Canada and we went there actually because my brother graduated high school in Egypt. So we all decided like my dad wanted to retire from his job. My mom wanted to go back to Halifax and Halifax is always home. Egypt was just like where we went to school and we decided to just like move all of us to Egypt or move

all of us to Halifax. And so I go to school there, and the first people I meet are atheists, like just out of the blue. And it baffled me. I knew one or two atheists, but I never met 30 atheists in a row. They never have in my entire life where people just generally don't believe in God and never thought about it in their lives. I've been talking a lot lately about my friends at the College of St. Joseph the Worker, you know, Jacob Imam, Mike Sullivan, Andrew Jones and company, the guys who started the college that combines the Catholic intellectual tradition with skilled trades training.

Well, listen to this, they're growing their program and are looking to connect with experienced Catholic tradesmen to hire as instructors. So if you are an experienced carpenter, plumber, HVAC technician or electrician and want to help mentor and teach future Catholic tradesmen, go right now to collegeofsaintjoseph.com slash careers to connect with the college and see how you can become part of something truly special. And if you're watching or listening and know a tradesman who needs to hear this message, please invite them to reach out to the college. Again, that's collegeofstjoseph.com slash careers, collegeofstjoseph.com slash careers. Thanks. Till this day, like, one of the atheists is my best friend. He's seen me go from Muslim to Christian. He's seen the whole, like, nine yards, and he's still, like, my brother. He's my best friend,

and he's supported me through the whole way. But he was the first, like, real atheist I sat down to and asked why he was, and he would say things like, the scientific evidence or the theory of this or that, and I'm like, just words I've never even considered in my life about. Because logically, like, things have to be created, and that was how my mind worked. But living in this, like, secular country, because Canada is the furthest thing from a Christian country at this point, and just hearing all these arguments and seeing sin. Well, Muslims and Christians, they don't agree about a lot of things, but as a Muslim, 15-year-old, I saw sin. I saw people having sex for marriage. I saw people doing drugs. And I was like, they don't have a moral compass. They're just doing things for like this hedonistic pleasure.

And I had like a midlife, well, not a midlife crisis, but... Quarter life. A quarter life crisis. I was like, people don't believe in God? What? Like, people don't fear God? People don't believe in God? What? Like, people don't fear God? Like, you're talking about, they would talk about like Syrian refugees or like people dying in Africa as like a joke, because they're children, they're like teenagers, and they're making memes about it. And my first instinct is like, I've lived in the Middle East, I've seen these people, they're human beings. And because they're so so desensitized and so separate from that part of the world, they don't know that they're real human beings.

You're just seeing pictures. And it made me really question life and question if God existed. I would think if I were in your shoes or if somebody else were in your shoes, it might reinforce their Islamic convictions, because here you have what you were raised with, and you're kind of coming across godless people. I first did. Until I started, until the atheists started asking me why I believe in Islam. And I started telling them about the Quran and all the miracles it had, and about Muhammad's

life, or at least the version that was taught to me, and the evidence behind it. But the friend who I talked about before, who's still my best friend, simply asked me, why don't you read about his life? That's all he said. I was like, okay. From who? What's all he said. I was like, okay. From who? What account did he... Like, the Muslim accounts. Just go read what your own religion says about Muhammad's life.

And did he say that because he thought he knew what Muhammad was like, but you didn't? Yes. He had a gut feeling that I didn't actually know what Muhammad's in his life. And I'm just going to be very frank with you, like, so... Just to give some clarification, the Quran is the direct word of God, and in the Hadith are the sayings, are the teachings of Muhammad. Yeah, this is how it's understood. Yeah. So, it's almost like the Bible and the church tradition. That's the best way to explain it to a Catholic.

The Quran itself, there is issues in it, but I would say if there are Muslims that only believe in the Quran, they're a huge minority and they're relatively peaceful, because the Quran is just, a lot of it's just stories of prophets, where when it comes to the hadith or the sayings or the collections of Muhammad's life, it's not pretty. It's pretty bad. And haven't you read much of the Hadith before then? There's some good in it, and I was taught the three or four good things. Okay. And not the nine or ten terrible things.

So after your friend challenged you, that was one of the first things you went to, to study? Well, yeah, I read it on a Monday. I remember this. It took me a week to leave Islam. I read, I opened up the Hadith on a Monday and I didn't have to, use a translation and I spoke fluent Arabic. And there's this verse in the Quran, this was the first hint, and it says, I'll just say it in Arabic.

In the Quran or the hadith? Well, it says in the Quran first. It says, وَإِنَّ عَلَى أَزْوَاجِهِمْ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ And what's permissible for you is your wives and what your right hand possesses. Now, in English, they try to change a little bit, which, side note, never trust an English version of the Qur'an or the Hadith. We can get to that later. But in English, they try to say that like, oh, it's not saying what it's saying, but

I know Arabic. So, what's it saying? Right hand possession is a saying in Arabic, meaning slaves. So there's something called Azbab al-Nuzul in the Hadith, which means the reasons for recitation, or the reasons for this verse being like revealed by God. And the story goes, basically to summarize, is Muhammad and his army, they surround his village and the village surrenders and it's a time of war.

And they asked him, like, what do we do about the wives and the women in the village who, you know, like their husbands are dead from the war? Like they're already married, they were married to them and we actually don't want to have sex with them. We don't want to take them as wives. And Muhammad said that it is permissible to take them as wives against their will. And as soon as I read that, I knew what I was going to say because I know the saying, but as soon as I read the clarification of the verse, I was like, so you're assaulting

women and you're, like, I can't say the word for censorship, but you know what they're doing. Like taking someone against their will, that's terrible. That's the most disgusting thing in my life. When you said you looked at the interpretation of it, what does that mean? Or when you... So, there's a few commentators that they're called tafsir, which just means commentators. And the most famous one is Ibn Kathir, and he is by far the most populous, like in the entire Muslim world.

And like Saudi Arabia, like the people there, they love him, and he is probably the most accurate too. He's like, satanic of Antioch, close to disciples type of thing. And he explains this is what was happening. And he knows because he's getting from accounts of people who were in the battle and saying, this is what Muhammad said to do in the battle. And my first instinct was almost to throw up, like, because I couldn't do that. I could never do that to someone. And then other things would come up. A very popular one is one of his wives, Aisha, was nine years old when they consummated their

marriage. And people can say that, oh, it's a different time and place. There's an issue with that. Number one, he's called the Rahmatan al-Alamin, that he's a mercy to mankind, Muhammad, for all times and places. So if he is a prophet of God, it should be suitable for all times. Number two, it's said that she was playing with dolls. And in Islam, dolls are prohibited because they look like idols at the time.

And there was an exception for her because of her age. It says this in the Hadith. And it also says in the Hadith that Aisha being the daughter of this man named Abu Bakr, Abu Bakr was not happy with the marriage. This is Aisha's father? Yeah. Okay. He was not happy with it. Another one was one of his companions, like one of Muhammad's

companions wanted to marry his daughter, Fatima, who was 12, and he said she's too young to be married. And I don't have the historical records with me, but at the time, the Byzantine Empire forbade any marriages for anyone under the age of 14. So at the time, we have records that this was not acceptable even in the time period of sixth century, like Arabia or Byzantine area, like it wasn't acceptable. Do Muslims dispute what you're saying right now? They will. Are you should being nine and why are you right?

No, no, no, they won't dispute that. They won't. Most Muslims will say she was nine. Some will just straight up lie and say, no, she was 18. But the Muslims who are like legitimate will just say they're lying. But it's very clear, like in the most authentic hadith, it says, he consummated the marriage at nine. Wow. And the argument is not, maybe she was in nine, the argument is, they matured quicker at that time.

To? To our time. To quicker? They matured quicker, like, physically. Oh, they matured quicker. Yeah, they matured quicker. So, like, they're physically, like, she had to have reached puberty. I see. Which basically falls apart completely, because there's a verse in the Quran that says that you can have marriage, you can have intercourse with someone who hasn't reached puberty. It says that in the Quran? Well, it says that if you... It says that in the Quran? Well, it says that if you... It's very hinted at, but basically...

Okay, it's not explicit. Not explicit, but it says, if you're in doubt, if your wife, like from a previous marriage, is pregnant, wait three months, even if she's had menstruated, can't menstruate anymore, or hasn't menstruated yet. So, this is the verse, hasn't menstruated yet. So this is the verse, hasn't menstruated yet. This is in the Quran. Yeah, it's Surah Al-Talaq, which is chapter 65, verse 4, it starts. And this is in reference to a girl who's already been married, but hasn't menstruated. And if you're afraid that she's pregnant

somehow, wait three months, even if she hasn't menstruated. So, obviously, this is a thing the Muslims are doing at the time. And obviously, Muhammad married Aisha at nine years old. And that's just a fact of life. I don't know how Muslims get around that. And so, you read this, and was that shocking to you? Because you had already read the Quran. How was this news to you at the time? You know, when you read like a book, but you don't really read what's on the page, like you're just like skimming it. Yeah, I'm sure it's not like that with the scriptures

with everything, right? We Yeah, and we tend to try to make sense of a book in light of what we do understand, right? Not what we don't understand. So there are confusing passages in the scriptures that we seek to understand in light of what we do. That's just how we try to understand any given thing. And I think that's probably what happened. Yeah, was there, I wonder, have you encountered Muslims who've tried to explain that away? Or are you finding that, no, no, because I mean, I just saw a debate recently. Forgive me. What's his name? There was a debate on child marriage between a Muslim and...

I think I know who you're talking about. Oh, I feel terrible that I've forgotten his name. He's been on the show. He's fantastic. Anyway. Was it Sam Shimon? No, not Sam. No, Captain Christianity?

No. I'm not sure. Yeah, his name escapes me right now, but. But no, like for example. This is, I mean, I'm seeing people publicly talking about children being able to be married in Islam today. I'm seeing that on YouTube. Yep, it's acceptable. It's in the Quran. It says you can marry someone who hasn't menstruated. It's God's word. Who are you to say that God's word is wrong? Like, that's the thought process

we're working with. So is there anything else you encountered at this time that you're like, oh my gosh. And I guess other things you encountered at this time that you're like, oh my gosh And I guess other things because I think what would happen right is if a Christian encountered things about his faith He would then seek like thinking think of the destruction of the Canaanites or something like that I Could see a Christian encountering those verses and being Scandalized by them and then he would go and seek the wisdom of other Christians to try to interpret them. Did you try to do that?

So in Islam, there's a similar concept. So in Christianity, we have to view the scriptures in the lens of Christ. We have to see the Old Testament as Christ, like he's's gonna come and fulfill it. Islam has a very similar concept called ab... abbervation, I believe what the word is, in which any later verses that contradict the earlier verses, they wipe them out. So the later verses are the ones you go with. Oh, okay. So there's an issue though. Muhammad's life, the beginning of it was very peaceful. The very end of it is where all the pedophilia, war, sex slavery, all that stuff comes in. And that's why Muslims, since Muhammad's second period of his life, till today, are still in that second period.

They're in attack mode right now. They're trying to conquer the world. That's like the vision of Islam is to take over the world. And it's take over the world basically by any needs necessary. Like any needs that we can use, any way we can do it, we're gonna do it. And to the extent that they will lie,

and there's this concept called taqiyyah, which means like hiding the truth. And they'll do this. They'll say like, I've done it. And it's basically like, yeah, we believe in Jesus. And like, yeah, he's the son of God in like a metaphorical sense. And didn't you know that Constantine like created Christianity at 300s and that John never existed? And they know these things are false, but it's okay to say it in order to make the Christian become a Muslim. So that concept of hiding the faith or hiding the truth of what's going on in order to spread

the message of Islam is like, it's okay. Was that something talked to you explicitly or just something you? It was something that was taught like, not like we used Taqiyyah to do this, but it was more like, if you wanna tell people about Islam, you can lie. Like just make it up. Like it was like literally people told me

just make stuff up in order for them to become Muslim. And actually this happened during the Egyptian Revolution in 2011 where the Muslim Brotherhood, they took power of the country and they're basically like, they're not like Hamas, but they, it's like Hamas light basically, I think it's kind of how it is. And they basically would tell the children who supported them to lie to their parents about what the Muslim Brotherhood was doing and how they were giving out free food and medical supply, and they were using taqiyyah to do it. So this is a concept that you can use in order to forward the Muslim agenda. And I did it, Muslims do it, and it's done every day.

I've seen it in debates all the time, where I see a Muslim say something in a debate, and I know for a fact he is lying, and he knows he's lying. But that's how they do it. And I don't know how this goes back to where I was in my testimony. The atheist was challenging you to read the life of Muhammad. Yeah. So the atheist was telling me, I read all this stuff, it's a Monday, and I think Monday night I prayed my night prayer, and on Tuesday I was like, it still bothered me. So I sent out an email to this guy named Ali Dawa, and funny enough, he's actually one of the people who says like, we know that Muhammad married Aisha at nine years old and we're okay with that.

He's one of those people. So I actually messaged him and I said, hey, is this true? Like about like the sex slavery and all that stuff? The biggest one for me was the sex slavery. I just couldn't imagine a prophet saying that. And he messaged me back and he said, I'll get back to this. Like, don't worry. And I was like, okay, awesome. And he never did. He never got back to me. But I think the reason why he never got back to me

because he knows it's true. He eventually talked about it in debates and stuff, but yeah, he knew, like, he knows it's true. At least I'm assuming he knows it's true. And most Muslims know it's true. To the extent that we were actually joking about it once at a family dinner I was a kid or my dad went to Indonesia And he saw this guy there and he had like five wives and my dad was like I saw you on a lot four and he's like ma maraka time I know come on your right hand possession And he's like they started laughing. It's like see I can have four but if I have my right hand possessions I can have as much as I want. So five, six,

seven. It was a joke at the dinner table. I didn't realize how bad that was until I got older, but yeah. So I contacted him. I started doing more research into the life of Muhammad and things just kept popping up that were just like... Who were you reading? What lives of Muhammad were you reading? Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, which are the two most authentic... Okay, so you're not reading like Christian propaganda accounts against... At this point Christianity is like so far, I couldn't care less what Christianity is talking about.

I see, you're reading what faithful Muslims are saying about Muhammad. I'm reading what the whole Sunni Muslim world is like, it's like reading the Council of Trent and the Vatican II papers saying that Jesus is not God. Like that's how ground shaking this is. Wow. It's that big. And what were you reading in these accounts of him that shocked you? The same kind of stuff or other things or? Well, the way the revelation happened was very odd. He was in a cave and this figure, which isn't called Gabriel at the time, the Muslims say it's the angel Gabriel, but

at the beginning he didn't even know it was the angel Gabriel, started choking him and telling him to recite or read and Muhammad said, I can't read, I'm illiterate. Then he's running down the mountain and he goes through his wife Khadijah at the time and she says, don't be scared, I'll take you to this priest. Then they take him to his blind priest. Like Christian priest, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, most likely an Aryan or a historian priest. Oh, okay, yeah. Because at the time, Arabia was filled with them. So they go to this priest who's blind, but somehow knows all the scriptures. And he tells Muhammad that he's a prophet and that it was the angel Gabriel that revealed this to you. So, Muhammad didn't even think it was the angel Gabriel at first. He just encounters a terrifying being who tries to strangle him.

Yes, in a cave in the middle of Arabia. And doesn't he come back to his wife trembling with fear? Yeah, the word he used was, Zambaluni, Zambaluni, cover me, cover me, I'm shaking. He, like, the accounts are like an epileptic seizure. Like, he would fall to the ground shaking and like foam would come out of his mouth and the companions would be like, oh, Muhammad's getting revelation. And now we can look back and be like, there's probably something medical going on that we have to help this man. Yeah, or demonic possession.

Yeah, or demonic possession. And so this happens, and Muhammad doesn't hear from this demon, or from quote-unquote angel for like, I don't know if it's a year or two, but it's a period of time. And he gets so depressed that he tries to kill himself. He goes on top of this mountain, Arabia, and he's about to throw himself. Then this being appears again and says, don't do it, your God hasn't forsaken you. Then he starts getting these revelations all the time. And in the beginning, there's nothing wrong with these revelations. They'll say like, lekom dinokom aleadyn, you have your religion, I have mine.

Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Just pretty peaceful stuff. And now, yeah. Yeah, like, there's only one God, worship Him, and there's even a story about how when Muhammad conquers Mecca, he takes all the idols down, but Jesus and Mary. He takes those icons of Jesus and Mary, he keeps up there because of, like, they're still, like, huge figures in Islamic faith. So he was trying to like convince Christians and Jews at the time to be part of this movement.

Eventually nothing really happens. He has like 300 followers like the people of Mecca don't really... There's some persecution because Mecca at the time was a place where people went to pilgrimage and to like give offerings to different gods and if he's preaching about one god then it's going to disturb the like economics of the city so eventually he has to leave and he actually sends the Muslims, he doesn't leave sorry, he sends the Muslims or the majority of them, to Ethiopia where there's a Christian king. And this Christian king, he belongs to the Eritrean Orthodox Church, so it still exists today. And he actually protects them from persecution. And this is actually kind of ironic because later

on the Muslim conquest, they try to take over the Eritrean king and try to make him convert to Islam. But this Christian king takes him in and protects him, and basically they make an alliance with the pagans of Arabia, and Muhammad is allowed to preach. But then he goes to Mecca, or sorry, Medina, which is a different city, and there he becomes this governor of Medina. Like people, they love. And there he becomes this governor of Medina. People like they love him. And he gets in control of everything. Now it's not just religion, it's politics, it's the army. It's like, how are we gonna separate the food sources for people during the hard months in the desert? And he gets this grudge on the people of Mecca

who kicked him out. And he's like, we gotta go back to Mecca, take it over, take over the black box, which is called the Kaaba and make it for our religion. So he's convinced that this has to come back to Muslim hands and say what you want about Muhammad, but man, he is a genius. He convinced like half of Arabia to follow him and to go into Mecca and destroy anyone in his way, and he took over Mecca. And the last thing he did, I'll give him props, was he said, no more bloodshed. We took over Mecca. That didn't end... Eventually there was bloodshed, but at that point he's like, there's no more bloodshed, we're going to make this area a holy ground. And that's when he destroys all the idols, but besides Jesus and Mary. And then at the end, it's most interesting part. So, for most Muslims, they believe that Muhammad was illiterate. He couldn't read or write. There's an issue though. Muhammad's

about to die and no one knows who's going to succeed him afterwards, like who's going to control the Muslim empire. Because now it's not just like a town. At this point, he's conquered all of Arabia. So, he goes on from Mecca. Yeah. So, he goes on from Mecca. He makes Mecca in that area like a holy site, so no bloodshed. Yeah. But everywhere else he conquers, takes over and they all become Muslim. But now he's sick, he's 63 years old, he's dying. Some people think he's poisoned actually by some, like a sex slave, and we actually don't know what killed him, but

he's dying. And the companions are around him, and he asked Aisha, well, at this time she's 18, so the nine-year-old, she's 18 now. He asked her to go and get something to write on, like some ink or something, which is interesting because this is when people are asking who's going to lead the Muslim empire after Muhammad. And he says, go give me something to write on. But I thought he was illiterate. What's he gonna do? Is he gonna draw something?

And this is like me thinking right when I'm reading this, I'm like, what? Like I thought he couldn't read or write. Like why is he writing something for the next, like Caliph, the next emperor? And the companions actually stop Aisha. They say, don't, don't get it. Let him die.

Well, he dies. And from day one of Muhammad's death, there's been conflict about who should rule the Muslim empire. Okay. So the companions killed each other for the empire. And eventually the Sunnis win, and that's when the Sunni and Shia split happens. And I summarize all of Muhammad's life basically. There's a lot that happened in there. But the main things that shocked me was like,

he fought like 80 wars. He fought like 80 battles and like six major wars and took sex slaves and... Like what? Like how is he leading me to be holier? Like, which is interesting because the word holy was never used. There's no constant of being holy, being like, or like theosis, becoming one with God. It's more like God gave us these

commandments to control the world, and once we control the whole world, then the Messiah will come back, which is Jesus, their version of Jesus. And I don't know, I was just like, I saw right through it. At the age of 16, I was like, it took me from a Monday to a Friday, it took me five days reading this, and I was like, yeah, this is nonsense. He obviously had either, well, I didn't know about demons at the time, but he obviously had some like medical issue, or he had like, I don't know, he was just a master genius. And this is not from God. Did you try talking to your dad about it during this time?

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What do you think your dad would have done if you had told him you were looking at leaving? I would only have caused him hurt. Yeah. It would have never been good. Nothing good would have came out of that conversation. But I mean, even to try to refortify your own faith, did you ever go to him going, hey, I'm trying to understand this. This doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know. No, I don't know why. There's no reason for it. But at the time, I just saw my dad, well, he's a good guy. He wouldn't harm anyone. And this is giving him peace. Why should I disturb him? Like, I just came to the conclusion that it's not true. So I just was like, why should I take away his peace? You've heard what Thomas Aquinas has to say about Mohammed. I know. Yeah, I have. Could I read it anyway? Go for it.

For those at home, here is Thomas Aquinas, a direct quote. He says, Muhammad, so quote, seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure, to which the concupiscence of the flesh urges us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest intellect. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables,

and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration. For a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms, which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants." There you are.

Yeah, I've read what Thomas Aquinas has to say. So after reading that, that sounds like what you've just said to me about your revelation during that one week of reading the hadith and other accounts of Muhammad's life. That's kind of what you've come to. I think Muhammad- The sex slavery wasn't here. He didn't talk about that, but well, kind of he did. Talking about the concupiscence of the flesh, yeah.

I think Muhammad was probably the most influential man, minus Christ, to ever walk the earth, and not in a good way. And I just left Islam after reading that. How did you, what, so yeah, tell me how that happened. Did you make a decision gradually? Was it? I remember exactly what happened. I was with my friend, the atheist, and his girlfriend at the time. We were sitting at a park, and it was beautiful, like Nova Scotia in the summer is amazing, so we're sitting there and we're just looking at the sea or the ocean and we're just having a good time. And I remember we're talking about this, like all the issues I'm reading, and I say, I think I believe in Islam because it gives me comfort.

And as soon as I said that I left Islam, because I couldn't care less about comfort, I cared about the truth. And I've always told people, even at 16, like, who cares if you're comfortable? Like what matters is what's reality. And I just learned that probably from growing up with disability and like being in hospitals that you don't have to be comfortable. You have to know the truth of your situation. I want to get back to Islam and you're leaving it, but I do want to ask you about your disability.

You referenced it, but didn't explain exactly what was going on. So I'm just, I have glaucoma. So I was born with it and so I'm blind in my left eye and I got pretty good vision in my right eye, but I can't drive. So yeah. So I just live with that. I take medicine for it to keep the eye pressures good. It's been a part of my life forever. So, it's funny, some people when they see me, they kind of pity it and they're like, oh, maybe he needs

help seeing something and then that's fine if I do. But when something is a part of your life forever, you don't really think about it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a part of, yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. So at that point, did you think God doesn't exist? Atheism is the way for me, given that your friend was atheist. So I left the part out. It's backtrack around four years, four years, two years, sorry. Back in Egypt, I had an orthodox friend, right? Coptic orthodox friend. Yeah. And every like, like P.E. class, we were just super lazy.

We didn't wanna like run 10 miles a day, just because, like they'd have people from the American army train us, to like, to basically do P.E. class. And I'm like, the guy was like, you know what a mile is? And we're like, yeah And you're like run five of them right now and I'm like, right it's like 40 degrees Celsius outside

Yeah, can you not do this? So we would just like sneak in the back and walk and just talk about stuff. Yeah, and he I have to get credit to him Actually, I'm not gonna get credit to him because he's still in Egypt So I'm gonna not say his name, but if it wasn't for him, I would not going to give credit to him because he's still in Egypt, so I'm going to not say his name. But if it wasn't for him, I would never go on this journey. He was with me in PE class the whole, like, grade eight and grade seven and a little bit of grade nine, and we would talk for hours about Christianity, Islam, politics, whatever the heck's going on. And we thought we knew everything. We're like 14 years old. We didn't know anything, but we thought we

were geniuses or like, yeah, we got like, this is the right way to do life or whatever. And everyone somehow would share his faith with me. And he would tell me stuff about the Trinity, about like, God, He's love, so like, He's this relational being, so He has to love someone. Or something like, oh, like, what better prophet is there than God Himself? And I'm like, what? What do you mean, what better prophet is there than God Himself? It's like, that makes no sense to me.

And at one time he said something like, what would it be better, like, let's say you have a bunch of ants and you want to lead them somewhere. Would it be better to just keep sending other ants to them or you become an ant, talk to them in their language? And I was like, it's a really cool analogy, but I guess it'd be better to become an ant. And so then one day he asked this, he said, I want you to go in your room and pray to God and ask him who he is. This is your friend.

Yeah. Yeah. And he's a Coptic. Yeah. So I go to my room that night and I say simple, I say a simple prayer. I say, God, if you're Allah, I want to have a dream of Mecca. I don't know why I said this, I just did. If you're the God of the Christians, I want to see Jesus on the cross. And I went to bed, and I have this dream, and in the dream, there's this huge crowd,

and I'm walking through the crowd, like, little by little, getting closer to the middle. And I see these people crying, some are laughing. And I look up and I see three people on crosses. And at the time, I didn't know that two other people were dying with Jesus. No one ever told me about the thieves on the cross. And I look at Jesus and he looks at me and his face was super bloody. I'm getting goosebumps just talking about this. I remember it like it was yesterday.

And I just looked at him and he looked at me and that was it. The dream ended. And I woke up at 3 a.m. and I convinced myself I hallucinated and that I don't want anything to do with that. You know, I said, hey, can you give me a dream? But I meant to convince myself about the dream. You know, I just had to make stuff up that like, but the dream never left me. So all this time, like through the whole story I was just saying about like going in Egypt as a Muslim and going back to Halifax and telling people about Muhammad's life and becoming like not religious. I still remember

this dream. This is still in the back of my mind. And so when I leave Islam, for some reason I just ignored any concept of becoming a Christian. But I told people about this dream, and they can vouch for this, like people in my life before I became a Christian, I'd be like, hey, do you think like, if there was a God he speaks to in a dream, and he'd be like, I think you're smoking too much. And I'm like, cool. And then, yeah, just wondering. Yeah, just wondering. And I told my atheist friend, like, yeah, I had this dream of Jesus on the cross, like, when I was a kid. Do you think it means anything? And he's like, it means you had the flu. I don't know.

Like, you just come up with anything. And I'm like, yeah, you're probably right. And I just didn't think about it at all. Like, something just made me not want to think about Christianity. So, I decided to just become this nihilistic, quote unquote, atheist. Is this after you're leaving Islam? After I left Islam. Okay. And I think for a good year and a half or maybe two years, I generally didn't believe there was a God.

Yeah. I generally like, I hear Christians say, I think most atheists actually believe there's a God, but they don't want to say it. That wasn't me. I generally didn't believe there was a God. I was like, maybe the universe is an endless thing. Maybe it creates itself back and forth like a the boomerang. I didn't know the answers and I started not to care anymore. boomerang. I didn't know the answers and I started not to care anymore. Until one day I was doing drugs. I was with a few friends and it wasn't any drugs. It was just like regular normal like weed and alcohol actually. But this kind of shows you that weed and alcohol can do huge damage. I went into psychosis and they had to call the hospital and they put me in this... Was it an ambulance?

I don't remember any of it, but I think either it was an ambulance or my brother drove me to the hospital. And all they said that happened is that I was like foaming from the mouth or something or I was like foaming from the mouth or something or I was unconscious but the whole time I was saying Allah unqizni, God save me. That's what I said. And then I woke up at home and my family sat me down and like, it's really like you almost died yesterday. I was like, what do you mean? Because in my mind, nothing happened. I don't remember any of it. And they're like,

this is what happened. And my friend, he saved a video of like, for 10 seconds, just to show me afterwards. And eventually he deleted it afterwards. And he's like, we're not... Just so you know. And that never happened again. But I think it was because I was so distraught about there being no God, and I was feeling the hole in my heart with as much marijuana and alcohol and whatever the heck I could get my hands on, that it was just killing me on the inside. I was dying on the inside. How was your mom and dad, surely by now they are aware that you've left Islam, no? My dad wasn't.

He wasn't? No. Did he just think you were a bad Muslim then? Were you going to- My dad had a lot of leeway, like again how I said, because I was visually impaired, like he thought God would just be more lenient on me. There's just- So if you weren't going to the mosque with him, it was okay?

It was okay. He never actually forced us, no. The Islam I grew up with was very like, still a fide Islam. It was like, if you believe it, it's good enough. That'll do. Yeah, it's fine. You think Muhammad's prophet's epic. So he was like, as long as they believe, it's good. So that happened, and I made a pact with God, the God I didn't believe in. I said, God, if you don't fix my life within like 90 days, I'm gonna like end my life. That's why I said I don't want to live

anymore. And I made this pact with this being that I don't even think exists. Yep. And then I go to university. And the first week of university, I meet this guy, his name is Michael Sloan. And it's funny enough, his conversion happened by watching your videos. Really? Yeah. And he's... How did that happen? I actually don't know. He never told me the full story. But he told me that like, he watched, I watched this guy named like Matt Fradd. He was really cool. I grew up Catholic, but he really made me like a follower of Jesus. I was like, that's awesome, man. Like, leave me alone.

Yeah, really happy for you and Matt Fradd. Yeah, I don't know who that is, but that's epic. And he, he was a Catholic missionary actually on the university. With CCO? Yeah, Catholic Christian Outreach. Oh, praise God. Yeah, they do amazing work. They do. And he was handing out these like things to sign or whatever. So I go up to him, I put my name, I put my phone number, and I forget about it completely.

I go home and at 10 p.m. at night, about to go to bed, I think I'm like hitting my vape or something, and all I see it's like, hi, this is Michael from Catholic Christian Outreach. Would you like to meet up tomorrow and talk about, I don't know, like what a faith study is, which is the program they do. And I was like, no, I don't. I really don't want to meet up. I'm very happy. He said, well, we got free, like, you know, pizza and stuff. And I was like... Classic. Hey, man, yeah, that's epic. I'll come... Face study? Yeah, I have faith. So I go in to this

chaplaincy in the university, and all I see when I walk in... And I'm in shock, right? Because I don't really know Christian Christians. I know Christians that are like, yeah, I thought Christianity was dead. Like, it's a dead religion. People go to church like on a Easter because they have eggs or something. I don't know, like something's going on. But I walk into this chaplaincy area and the first thing I see is a nun praying to Rosary. I look to my right, there's this man, like he's like sitting like this in like, in prayer, and he's just like, he looks up, he does a sign of a cross, he's like, glory to God. That guy's one of my best friends now. Really?

Yeah. And then I look to my left and there's people like reading their Bibles as highlighters, and I'm like, where the heck am I? Like, what is this? And I go into this little room where I meet Michael, and it's a little chapel area with the crucifix and the altar, and there's some chairs there. And I was like, okay, interesting. And I look in the window and there's this guy with the collar thing, and I'm like, oh, that's like a reverend.

One of those priest things. Yeah, I've seen those in the movies. And he... I think you know him, actually. I think it's Father Craig Cameron. Yes, of course. So he's sitting there and he's working on his computer. Wow. And I meet with Michael and we start talking and he starts telling me about this face study thing. And the reason why I agreed to do it was because I wanted to convince everyone in this chaplaincy

area that there was no God. So I walked in there every single day for the first semester of university and tried to convince them and I failed the first semester of university because I didn't go to class. I just went from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. just went there and argued with them every day. And... Did you get any converts? Nope, not one. Not one person became an atheist.

But I'll tell you one thing, they were starting to really get to me because they were very nice even though I was an asshole to them. I was like, yeah, you guys are really weird. You think God's going to save you now if you're on a plane? And they're like, yeah, he will. And I'm like, oh really? Okay. Unironically, yes. Yes, it's like I'm going to heaven because I'm like,

okay, that's epic. I just want to, I just want to pause right here and say thank you to CCO, to the good Andre and his bride and the excellent work they're doing up in Canada. They do amazing stuff. I mean, it's because of the ministry that they're engaged in that you came to the faith really. It is. Glory to Jesus Christ. Like it wasn't for them, I would never have met any Catholics or any Christians in general.

And yeah, so I come back every day, I talk to them, I discuss with them, more like argue, actually, I just argue every day with them. And then one day, it one of the faith days, I guess lesson two, it's the story of the prodigal son. And Michael's reading it from the gospel of Luke, about how the son comes back and the father forgives him no matter what. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, wait, you mean like he's not to punish him? And Mike was like, no, but he took half his inheritance. Like, I don't know, man, I didn't have a son, but if my brother took all my money and then came back saying, hey, let's be friends.

I think I'd have a few words to tell him, you know? And he's like, no, but God loves us. Every day we wrong him, but if we come back to him, he can save us. And it baffled me so much. It's so funny you say that. Forgive me for interjecting, and perhaps you've already heard me talk about this with Jacob Imam on the show.

And Jacob will forgive me if I'm mistaking some of these elements of the story. But Jacob's father was Muslim and converted on his deathbed. And I believe on his deathbed was read the prodigal son for the first time. And just like you, shocked, he thought he misunderstood something because he was sure that the point of the story was that the father was going to beat him. I thought I at least pay the money back, like anything, like, but the point of the story

was like total forgiveness no matter what. And I was like, so God's not gonna do anything? He's not gonna like, total forgiveness, but like, give me like 10 bucks? Nothing? And I started crying. I started bawling my eyes out in this faith study, which is awkward for Michael, because it's a one-on-one faith study. Exactly. It's like, you and another dude crying. Yeah, and he's sitting there and he's like, yes, they're there. He doesn't know what to do. Would you like a Kleenex?

Yeah, exactly. And I just... The whole concept baffled me because my entire life, I thought God was like, maybe if I just do good works, or if I just like, I don't know, say like a good morning Jesus or Allah or whatever, and I'll get to heaven. Something, I gotta do something. Right? There's some exchange that has to occur. But this deity didn't want anything from me. And that stuck with me.

I still thought it was nonsense, but it stuck with me. It was a cool story. And eventually I leave, and I leave the room, and I sit down, and the Christians are chatting, whatever. And then Michael comes back out, and he's like, hey, we're going to Prince Edward Island, which is the next province over from Nova Scotia. We're going there for this this like cottage like thanksgiving thing if you want to come, you know, it's up to you. And I was like, at this point, I made no friends

university because I spent the entire day with Christians. And I was like, and a lady kind of became my friends, like, we were weren't just arguing anymore. We were arguing and then like, Hey, let's get dinner and talk about it more, you know, so we're getting really close. And I was like, man, I've been calling them idiots this whole time, and they just invited me to go to, like, on a vacation for free. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. And I was a complete idiot the whole trip up to PEI. I was like, they were listening to this pastor talk about Moses, playing the Red Sea, and I was just sitting there giggling, like, ha ha, do you guys really believe Moses existed? I don't know, something stupid.

And we get there, we get to the cottage, and there's 15 of us, and I'm the only non-Christian. I'm starting to realize this, as if there's like a plot. It's a trap. Yeah, there's some with trap going on so we get to the cottage and I Realized this Saturday Tomorrow Sunday, haha, and they're all talking about Mass and like what are we good in mass tomorrow? I'm like shoot. I gotta go to mass No, I'm gonna stay here. I thought about it. Look outside my window and the nearest house is like 500 kilometers away and I'm like I'm not

gonna get murdered here so I'm gonna go with them to Mass. So I dress up in a nice little shirt and I go to Mass and I sit in there and um man Mass is weird from a non- someone who did not grow up. What was that like? And don't be uh polite just exactly what did it- The most cultist thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah. I- I've to come back because I had no concept of what Christians do. Like, all I know is like a guy sits there and talks. That's what I thought. It's like a sermon. Yeah. Everyone's going up and down at the same time. They're going up for some bread, and then, but I can't get it. What's up with the cup? And then like, who's this lamb you're talking about?

They gave me pizza, why can't I have the bread? Yeah, it's just so weird. And the whole thing is just like, and then this other guy made him weirder, like, you know, you say like, peace in Christ, he turns to me, and he sees, he looks at me straight in the eyes and he says, peace of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, something like that, like a whole sentence. Yeah. And I'm like, that's epic. Thanks so much, man. I appreciate it. I'm gonna sit down now. Cheers. Yeah. Yeah, cheers. And then they're like, yeah, you can go up for a blessing. And I'm like,

I don't think, no, I'm good. I'm just gonna stand in the corner. And I remember the sermon, and the sermon was directed to every question I asked him. And I was like, man, did they talk to the priest? They must have asked him. They must have called him up, like, hey, this atheist guy keeps asking us these questions. He must know. But obviously, it was just God speaking through the priest. And then the mass ends, and this random woman comes up to us, and she's like,

I want to invite all 15 of you guys to my house for a Thanksgiving dinner. I just felt called by the Holy Spirit, who I'm like, I don't know who the heck that guy is. But sure. Like, sure. Yeah, I love him too. And my first thought was, again, this is how you get murdered in movies. Like, we're not going to this random person's house for Thanksgiving dinner. Like, who are we giving

thanks to? The devil? Like, I don't want to know. But they're all like, because they're Christians, and they're all happy-go-lucky. They're like, yeah, of course, we love to go. And I'm just like, okay, I guess I'm going with them to Thanksgiving dinner. And it was so weird. We're driving to this woman's house. It's in the middle of nowhere. And like the sun is shining on our car. It's like following us. It's so strange. And by the time you get to the woman's house, the sun shines on her house. And the whole rest of the sky is like cloudy. And everyone's like, oh, it's a miracle. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Guys, come on. Come on. Your bar of miracles are so low. We go in and they, they do this whole prayer thing before the dinner. And it's the first time I've really seen someone actually pray. Like in Islam, like you kind of just like, there's like recited prayers. Yeah. But they were like talking to Jesus as if like He's in the room with them. Like, Jesus, we want to thank you for our cousin who was healed yesterday, but I'm like, cancer. And I'm like, what? Like, is he here? Like, I'm like, who are you talking to? And then they would go around the room and be like, yeah, Jesus, this semester was really hard, but thank you so much for helping me get through with my grades. And then it got to me and I was like,

amen. That's all I said, I was like, amen. And then they're like, they started laughing. And that's a Christian word. Yeah, I heard that in the movie. Same one with the reverend. That's like, but yeah. And then they had their whole grace thing. That seemed kind of cultic too, because they're all saying the same words at the same time. And it ends, we have a good dinner. Eventually, we sit in this living room area and it's like, there's probably like 25 of us in this house. And it's not a huge house, so it's very crowded. So, some of us are sitting on the floor and some of us are sitting on couches. And like three or four of us are playing guitar doing praise and worship and

This is the moment really hit me like I'm looking up and They're playing the song ten thousand reasons and the words bless the Lord all my soul worship is holy name Keep ringing in my ears. Bless the Lord bless the Lord bless the Lord. I Look around the room. Everyone the Lord. I look around the room, everyone's smiling. They're all in this trance, praising God. I'm just like, there's only two options. They're all on drugs, which they're not, because I've been with them for like three days now. Or there's something to this. Yeah.

So I whispered to myself, the first real prayer of my life, I said, Jesus, if you're real, show me right now. And as soon as I said that, I became a Christian. As soon as I said that, I didn't know at the time what it was, but the Holy Spirit entered my body in a way that just shook me. I had goosebumps and that hole that I was filling up with drugs just filled up. It was whole.

I wasn't missing anything. And then I started crying and then the music kind of slowing down. People were looking around like, what's going on with Ishmael and I had to leave the house. Then this woman follows me and she's like, are you okay? And I look at her with tears in my eyes and I'm like, I think Jesus is real. And she's like, do you know what that means? I was like, no, but he's real. And I look up to the sky and the moon's shining and this is literally what I say, hey dude, I don't know what happened, but that was cool. We'll talk about this later, but I want to go back. They're worried about me. I love you, Jesus. That was my first prayer. I walk back in and everyone's looking at me and I'm still crying. And this woman, the woman who invited us to the house, she gets this like holy oil.

She starts marking me, she's like, the wounds of Christ on your head, on your arms. And every, until today, I feel like my feet and my arms and my head and those marks are different. Like, something about it, Maybe it's a placebo. Maybe it's not true, but it feels different to me. Those parts of your body is that what you mean? Yeah, like those marks where she marked the oil are different. And then I look around the room and everything is beautiful. I don't want to die anymore. I see this couch. I see

the fabric in the couch. It's the most beautiful couch I've ever seen in my life. And there's like a dog's piss stain on it, but it's the most beautiful couch I've ever seen. It's the most beautiful piss stain. Yeah. It's like, what? This is amazing. God created this. And I look out of the room, the most beautiful people I've ever seen in my life. And it was a beauty I've never even thought about before. It wasn't like when you see a woman who has a beautiful figure, or a beautiful son.

It was like a beautiful soul. These individuals were beautiful because they were made in this image of this being who is God. And I looked at my watch and it was October 7th, 2018 at 9 PM. And I gave my life to Christ that time. And I never looked back. On the feast of L.A.D. the Holy Rosary. I didn't even know that's what it was. But glory to God, like I just, I knew what it was. And I knew who He was. I knew Jesus was God.

I knew He died for me. And I knew what I had to do is give my life to Him. I didn't know any theology at the time. I didn't know anything about Catholic, Protestant, or I didn't know nothing. All I know is Jesus, He saved me. It's through Him that I'm saved. And now the next day we're going back to Halifax and they're doing their praise and worship and I'm sitting with them.

I'm going crazy. And then they drive me, so my house is on a big hill, so they put me at the end of the hill and I get out of the car and I'm walking up the hill. And apparently my aunt's driving down, I didn't even notice her because I'm still in a daze from everything. And she calls me and she's like, oh I see you walking up to the house. Do you meet a lady? I was like, what do you mean?

It's like you look like you've won the lottery. And I'm like, oh I don't know, I feel great. And I walk into the house and my mom's there and I'm like, hey, mom, how's it going? She's like, why are you smiling so much? I was like, I'll tell you later, just, it's going great, it's going great, mom. And then I went to my room and I think for like the next like two hours, I cried my eyes out in a good cry, like a beautiful cry, like, how beautiful God is that He died for me.

Like, I just think, why did God die for me? God died for me. It kept coming, like the cross, the cross kept coming to me. And then the next day I went back to university and I was the one preaching in the chaplaincy, so there you go. So then I just signed up for RCIA and by April 20th 2019 Easter vigil I Was baptized for his communion in confirmation. Glory to Jesus Christ. Yeah Did you have any obstacles to overcome I mean, did you did you have any good reasons do you think to be an atheist that

had to be worked out or? Funny thing is no. Once that night happened, I didn't. But what were your reasons prior to that? Just that religion was stupid or that life seemed senseless? No evidence. There was no evidence for Christianity. Did you have any evidence that God didn't exist? That you would present? No, it was more just like...

It was wish fulfillment. Yeah, something like that. It was like telling themselves a story that made life seem more bearable, that kind of thing. And you weren't going to be naive like them. Yeah, exactly. I was too good for that. And I just didn't see the purpose for it. I thought it was like, it's better to be depressed and know the truth than live a lie and be happy. So yeah, it didn't really... I don't

know. Like something just changed it, like the way I thought. Like overnight, it was really like the Maskus Road moment. I had the same experience. And it's funny, as you said that, I remembered, I haven't thought of this in a long time, but when I came home after my conversion to Christ, a lot of people said the same thing to me as they did to you. And I'm just now remembering this. People would say, you bloody won the lottery. Yeah. It's a shame maybe that people don't say that to me as often. Life gets in.

At the time, I mean, I felt like my heart was like a balloon and it was just, it was about to burst with joy. I couldn't contain it. But I feel like even when we're down in our faith life, like we're desolation, it's still different. It's like, I'm going through this depressing season, but I know there's something different like marked in me than before that conversion. All right, so your parents clearly know you're a Christian now.

No, stop it. No, I go. My mom finds out. No, I mean now. Oh, now? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't. They're 100% sure. I was going to say, because by the time this comes out, you better find somewhere to hide. I'm going to be screwed.

But no, they know now. Everyone knows. Yeah. But so my mom finds out first. How did she find out? And it's the funniest thing ever. So I'm wearing this huge like parka coat because it's like the middle of winter in Canada and I have my rosary, which I don't even know how to use. I was like, oh cool. Like it's the cross and I just put in my, I put it in my parka and it's like a button and a zipper. So I zipper it in and I put the button on so it can't go anywhere Yeah, I walk in the door the first thing that happens it falls and the cross is facing her

It's like I was like what how did that happen and she looks at me. She's the first thing she says, please no And I was like mom. I just sit down. I can explain I I was like, Mom, just sit down. And she's like, she starts bawling. She's like, please, please, like religion ruins families. This is like, and I'm like, Mom, I can't do it. And she practically begged me to deny Jesus that night. And as much as my heart wanted to do it, I couldn't do it, because I knew it was true. I knew Jesus was Lord. You love your mom. You don't want to see her in pain yet. I can't see it. And just because she grew up in the

Joe's Witness religion, there was so much pain around that area. She didn't know. She was afraid for me. She was really afraid I joined a cult. Then my brother found out the second person, I texted my brother because he was living in... So did your mom say, did your mom tell you that she would or would not tell your father? She said, whatever you do, do not tell Baba, which is dad in Arabic, like don't tell Baba. And I told her like, I won't tell him right now. Because I have to sit him down.

Like, that's not a thing I can just, like, slide into conversation. Like... BTW. Yeah, by the way, I'm going to church. Goodbye. But yeah, I tell my brother, the second person, over text. And I don't know how to call him and tell him this. Like, because he's in Toronto, right?

And I'm like, okay. Hey, his name is Omar. So I was like, Hey, Omar, just want you to know that I love you very much. So does God, Jesus Christ is Lord. I give him my life to him. The Holy Spirit's real. I know it's true. And I love you very much. I love you.

That's it. Something like that. And then were you just sitting with anxiety? I sent it and I went to bed. Turn the phone off? I went to bed. Woke up the next morning and the text said, Oh, no problem, man. Do whatever you want. Two hours later, he calls me. He's like, I just read it actually. He's like, what happened? Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. It's like, Ishmael, I think you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. It's like, Esmelle, I think you gotta, you have to go to hospital. Like, you have to go to hospital.

Like, this is not normal. People don't convert to Christianity. People leave Christianity. Or like, the Christianity, like, the paganism and like, the priest touching the kids and, and why, like, do you not know that they drink, they get alcoholic people to come and drink in their churches? And I'm like, okay, this man doesn't know what's going on. And I try to be as calm as possible with him, but... Pete He loved you and he was trying to help. Jared He was trying. Pete Yeah.

Jared But then it started getting, like, not love, but more like, very hurtful. Okay. Like, my mom sent an article once about schizophrenia and how, like, maybe I have schizophrenia. Um, I told her about the dream. My brother would say things, I can't think of a specific quote, but it's more like, you're smarter than this. Like, I never thought you were just stupid. Like, you're so unintelligent. Whenever I try to share my faith, he'd be like, I want you to

never talk to me about this effing Jesus, Lord forgive me, ever again. And... And then my dad finds out the last, and he finds out actually years later. How? How did this happen? So I started in university, I started with a degree in English, and then halfway through, the Lord put it on my heart to do theology. So I changed everything and I went to theology. My dad found out I was doing theology and he was confused. He was like, what are you learning about? And

I told him, like, the New Testament. Like, I was like, I'm just doing this for research stuff. Just testing the waters to see how he might react or? Well, I don't think he would care. Like, he'd be like, oh, like to find out what they believe and why it's wrong. I was like, yeah. Like, I don't know, like, yeah, yeah. There's something about Arab culture where if you don't talk about it, it's not true. Like, he must have known somewhere deep down that something was going on. But if you don't talk about it, it's not true. So, he was just like living in denial. He even told his friend once that like, yeah, my son's alerting about

the New Testament to prove the Christians wrong. And I'm like, yeah, my son's alerting about the New Testament to prove the Christian's wrong. And I'm like, I never said that, but okay. I was like, sure. And yeah, so like he started finding out like little clues where I'm gone on Sundays. He found I volunteered at a church once for like some homeless thing. And he's like, why not at the mosque? Go at the church is better than us. And I was like, no, I just...

I don't know. I don't get along with people at the mosque. I never lied to him. I never said I was a Muslim. I never said I believed in Allah or anything like that. But I had to, for a little while, just think strategically about how to tell him. Because I was generally scared for my safety. Not because he would ever want to hurt me, but the shock might make him hit me or something. I don't know what would happen. Eventually, I told him indirectly without even knowing it. He really got on my nerves once and talking about I should change my degree. And I don't know know I go out for some

friends and I text them this quote from the Quran the one I actually said it earlier in this podcast where I say, you have your religion I have mine and he calls me he's like what do you mean you have your religion I have mine I was like you know we have believe different things like what do you mean you believe different things? Are you a Muslim? Oh And he's asked that and it came right out my mouth I was like no, I'm not a Muslim And I hear him crying on the phone And I'm like I go home right away. I go home and I see him on the ground shaking home and I see him on the ground shaking, in tears, scared, praying in Arabic, please God don't send the hell, please God don't send the hell. And my brother's calling me

because he found out what happened, because my mom probably told him. And he's blaming me, you're the reason why this family is breaking up, you're the reason why all these issues are happening, it's you're the reason why. My mom's looking at me like, look what you done. And I want to help him. I want to do something. Like, well, sure, we don't get along about everything, but he's still my dad. Yeah, he raised me. He... Without him, I wouldn't be where I was today. And eventually, he gets up, he sits on the couch, and we sit there, and he said,

tell me the whole story. So I told him the whole story that I just told you. And he said, okay. Okay. I just need to be alone. And I said, I love you. He said, okay. Ooh, bless him. And for a whole year, he never said, I love you back. After that, he never said, I love you back. He I would hear him crying at night. Oh, bless him. Yeah, I once caught him. Sorry, it's really emotional.

I once caught him like outside on the on the deck, just because we live by the water. He was chilling by the water. He's like praying in Arabic, it's like, what have I done to deserve this? Yeah, it was really hard on him. Now we're at a point where I just told him that I'm engaged, I'm going to be getting married at a church. R. Congratulations. S. Thank you so much. And he said, I told him, you don't have to come to the mass, but you're welcome to come to the dinner. And he sent me a heart. So I'm assuming

that's good. You know, men, we all have this. It's like a thumbs up. Hey, dad, I'm drowning. He sent me a heart and I was like, oh, he's got it. He's got the sense. So I think he might actually show up for the dinner. So he's come a very long way. I'm actually very proud of him for how far he came. All that being said, my family is nowhere near Christ at all. Like nothing has changed in that area, which hurts me a lot, because I actually just want the best for them. I would love for them to know the love that Christ has for them as just people. Yeah.

About like, who they are. Your dad sounds like a beautiful man. He sounds like he's got a big heart. He's a very hard working man. He wants what's best for you. He came to Canada with nothing. He worked for 10 years or something, became a citizen, and he's a very conservative man, so he doesn't agree with gay marriage and all that stuff, but he always taught me, you respect everyone in Canada, they've done the best for you. Isn't that beautiful? Respect the country they welcomed us in. He welcomed, yeah, like, the Middle East is not a safe place. Like, without Canada, we would have been living in poverty in Egypt. So, my dad didn't come from like a rich family in Egypt. And yeah, he's a great man. I mean, I think we'd, you know, like, it's admirable that your dad prays five times a day. It's admirable that your dad wakes up in the morning and you say goes to the mosque to pray,

even though he doesn't have to except on Fridays. He loves God. We can reject our religion and yet find virtue in it and in its practices. And there is something very manly actually about committing to worshiping God the way you understand it. I gotta be honest, like some of my friends told me to go to Mass at 7 a.m. once, and I was very... I went twice, and then I kind of backslid, and I just don't do it. And like, seeing my dad, like, all right, going to the mosque, and it's like 5 a.m. in the morning. Bless him, yeah. And I'm like, he's 73 years old, by the way, and he still fasts Ramadan fully.

And the love he has for God is immense. It is huge. And the Islam that he follows is one where I don't know how he finds it out, because I know he's read the Hadith, but he kind of like... It's like Muslim, like modern Islam, or like the everyday Muslim who doesn't actually believe in the violence or doesn't actually believe in the terrible things. He sees the world in a unique way. So I have a lot of admiration for him. Same for my mom. My mom, till today, it hurts her a lot that I'm a Catholic, specifically a Catholic.

She thinks a lot of people deal with the Catholic Church is like the worst thing in the history of mankind. And that like, we basically, if we didn't exist, you'd be like light years in the future, some light years. And... Pete Slauson Yeah, not at all true, but sure. Jared Polin Yeah, like half the hospitals are Catholic. Pete Slauson Yeah, scientific revolution and advances. Jared Polin Big battle, yeah. Pete Slauson Leper colon battle. Yeah. The leper colonies.

Everything's gone. Et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. But. But I get it. Bless her heart still. Yeah. I think it is so important maybe to say a word to people watching who are in similar experiences. You know, it is, it is kind of wild because I feel like they're wearing this weird generation where the young people are reclaiming tradition that the boomers threw out, forgive the slur.

But when I kind of grew up, it was about abandoning the faith for partying. But I'm meeting more and more people who are like pretending to go to parties so their parents won't be horrified that they're going to church. And what advice, I guess, do you have for someone out there who's in the process of converting or who has converted and their parents aren't speaking to them? What have you learned through this whole experience? I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free.

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Be ready for it to get worse. It doesn't get better. I don't want to suracode it. It could get better, but always prepare for the worst. Like all the friends that were with me at the beginning of my conversion, the 15 people that were with me, I only talked to one of them. Those who are not Catholic you're talking about, like this atheist friend of yours? No, the 15 people from the, like the beginning of the story who saw me have my conversion.

Oh, none of them talked to me, but one person. The Catholics? Yes. Why don't they talk to you? This is the saddest thing I'm going to ever say. Yeah. I've never been more backstabbed by anyone than Christians. Yeah. Why? I don't know.

Specifically Catholics, actually. And that sounds insane to say, but to me it proves the truth almost because it's like, of course the people in God's church who are sinners are going to be the worst people, but it's like... Were there reasons that they turned on you? I don't know. We don't have to get into personal. It's not like personal things. It's just like I don't know. We don't have to get into personal things. It's not like personal things. It's just like stupid arguments are just politics are the way we should face that mass for the altar, like for the priest.

And I'm like... People we have the most in common with can sometimes drive us nuts. I mean, it's why siblings fight so much because we do love each other. We are so close. It's a lot easier to get furious with your brother than you would perhaps just a stranger or a friend. I'll give you a good example, actually. I had this group chat once and I invited people to go to this SSPX mass and I didn't, I don't go to it. I don't really care too much about it. But I said, Hey, it'd be nice to go to see what a TLM is like. You don't have to receive, just check it out. I got so much like backlash for that. It was insane.

I like I lost friendships over that one. Really? Yeah. That's so unfortunate. It is unfortunate. But I've never seen a group of like people more divided than the one universal church. Well, it's important, I think, that people realize if they're looking into Catholicism that they're not walking into the Garden of Eden. That's where I'm kind of getting that. Yeah, there's a great deal of snakes and corruption

in every institution, including the church. And so, if you're becoming Catholic because you've found a perfect community, oh, wait, because you definitely haven't found that. Yeah, yeah. It's a wretched community. I mean, you know, it's divinely instituted and it's where the medicine is. I noticed it the first week I became a Christian. I went to a mass and I couldn't receive at the time. I was just sitting there. And the priest preached on why we shouldn't evangelize to Muslims and Jews because they worship the same God. And I'm like, I just converted last week, why am I here? And I go to another priest and he's saying how every single Muslim and Jew is going to

be burning in hell. And I'm like, what? Like, how are you guys on the same church? How are we pendulum swinging? My experience is like, you guys are making fun of the Protestants for being unite not being united Yeah, like so why be Catholic then if there's so much corruption and infighting? Because it's true. But also like we can go into why I picked Catholicism. Yeah, why not be Coptic or I Tried to be Coptic they didn't want me. Okay, so some of them were you of course

Yeah, well like the Coptic church where I was from was like, how do I say this? I went and talked to like the administrative person and they wouldn't let me become Coptic because they were afraid that I was like a secret, like Muslim. Oh, trying to like come in. Well, if any group of Christians should be nervous about that, it's probably them. Yeah, no, I didn't even blame them. I was like, this kind of actually, this is makes a lot of sense. Like, are you engaging in apologetics to Muslims at all?

How? Usually online. So I know videos very once in a while. You have a YouTube channel? Yeah, it's Ishaf Arabia. It's so people should go follow you. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Um, my biggest one, my Instagram, it's also of Arabia. It's so... People should go follow you. Yeah, go for it. My biggest one on my Instagram,

it's also called Ish of Arabia. But that one, I talk to anyone who messages me. I basically, I say like, if you're a Muslim and you want to debate, message me one-on-one, we can video chat. And have you been doing that? Yes. How's that been going?

They always tend to end it when they realize I speak Arabic. Ah. Yeah. That does tend to be the go-to, that if you're not speaking Arabic, then you haven't actually read the Quran, and therefore you are ignorant and... Mm-hmm. Yeah, that tends to be it.

But a lot of times it's funny, too, because the people who message me, they don't realize they don't speak Arabic, and then I find out they don't speak Arabic, but I do, and then they end it. So it's kind of funny, like it's kind of ironic how that happens, but yeah. I've been getting wind of mass conversions from the Islamic world to Christianity. Have you heard of that? Is that being overplayed? I'll tell you one thing, it's underplayed, if anything. I don't think people realize how many Muslims are becoming Christian. Tell me about that. I know personally at least 100 people, like in my personal life. From where? From the Middle East? From Syria,

from Jordan, from Yemen, from immigrants who came to Canada, or the kids of immigrants who came to Canada, or the US, or England. Wow, just you alone know about a hundred people. They're everywhere. I know a professor in university that was Muslim his whole life until up to like two years ago, and became a Christian. I don't know what it is. Number one thing is dreams and visions.

I'm hearing that. I mean, you had a dream. I had a dream of Jesus. Every ex-Muslim, like maybe I would say 50 to 70% of them, explain to me how they've... It's always like Jesus or an angel, but nine times out of ten is Jesus saying something. Either very specific, like, go to this store, meet this man, talk to him, he will tell you the truth. Oh my goodness.

Or something like, I am the son of Allah. Like something like that, like something so profound. Mine was just Him on the cross, that's what I needed. And then these people, when they're having these dreams, because Jesus is a person in Islam, they're realizing He's not a prophet. Even if the dream is just Him like smiling at them, there's something about the encounter. That Christ is more than a prophet. There's something different the encounter. That Christ is more than a prophet. There's something different about him. He's not just a prophet. And these Muslims, they're

flocking to Christianity because I think there's like secular reasons and there's also like religious reasons, like spiritual reasons. The secular reasons, I would say just the rise of the Islamic State in the 2010s, the Iranian Revolution, like the Islamic Revolution, and how terrible that was for the country. Egypt, like we had the Muslim Brotherhood in, and that was terrible for the country. And people are looking for other faith besides Islam, and the biggest one is Christianity. Also, I think the spiritual reason or like the Christianity. Also, I think the spiritual reason or the real reason why people are becoming Christian is because the hardest place to reach people is the Muslim world. If you go and preach to any Muslim country and you're caught, if you're a Western citizen, you leave,

but you have to get out of the country. But if you're from that country and you're preaching, you can get killed, you can get imprisoned. I know someone who... The Jordanian government took his house. There's no law for apostasy in Jordan, but there's a law for public unrest. And so they considered it public unrest, so they took his house, all his finances. So he lives in someone else's house for free, basically. He can't get a job, nothing. He can't leave the country either. So... Egypt, I think, if I went back to Egypt, even though I'm not an Egyptian citizen, technically, I'm only Canadian, if I was an Egyptian citizen, I can get 10 years imprisonment.

Pete Slauson If you were to go back. Jared Slauson And they know I was preaching Christianity that law has never been like Refined or changed it's still there And of course, there's like Saudi Arabia and Iran where the penalty is death. I think it's around 12 Muslim countries That there's some type of penalty for conversion Because for conversion because Mohammed literally says like a quote from Mohammed directly, man tarqa dinu aqtalu whoever leaves his religion kill him. That's it.

There's no ifs, ands or buts. Now there's schools of thought that say like, should we kill him after three days, give him time to repent? Maybe three weeks. But the rule is kill him. But even Muslim countries today are realizing they can't just go around killing people because of, I don't know, the rest of the world would not let this happen. So Egypt has 10 years, Jordan's public unrest, stuff like that. So yeah, the Muslim world has a lot of Christians hiding.

I would say for every... The statistics in Egypt are like 10% of the countries Christian, but I would probably say it's almost as high as 18%. Have you personally been threatened? Yeah. I was assaulted once, but... Do you want to share that? Nothing happened. I forgive the person. Like, they knew what I was doing. They came up to

me. They punched me. And eventually I just told them I forgive them. And then that was it. I could have took legal charge to them. And I don't want to say who it is, because they might come to Christ one day, and I want that to be part of their journey. But I've gotten death threats online, like a lot. Pete Slauson Over Instagram or? Jared Seif Instagram, YouTube. I got an email once, it was really interesting. I don't know how they got my email. But besides that, like, no, in person, people seem to be okay most of the time, because you can't really do much in the Western world. Like if someone tries to assault me, like in person in Halifax, like, yeah, someone's going to see it and just call the cops.

Yeah. Who's doing the best work right now out there in regards to apologetics to Muslims on YouTube? Oh, Sam Shamoon, 100%. Sam Shamoon, I talked to him a little bit. He's amazing. I love him so much. Now he's very harsh, but he knows his audience. When it comes to different groups, you have to act in different ways. When it comes to Muslims, you have to be harsh because that's how they are when it comes to debating in general.

It's like a part of the religion. When it comes to like Mormonism or Latter-day Saints, you have to be like kinder and nicer, because they're more kind and nice. You have to know the audience you're talking to. And so I always see like comments from other Christians being like, you're so harsh to them on these people. And I'm like... But you realize coming from that culture, he's exactly right, I see. They need... If you're easy on them, they actually...

Some Christians don't realize that if you're not aggressive, they think that you don't actually believe it. So if I'm not aggressive about my faith and passionate about it, I'm not yelling and saying slurs. Yeah. The Muslim's mind is like, you must not even believe this, you're not even passionate about it, why are you so calm? Interesting, yeah.

In our Western context, we're like, oh, he's yelling, he's being so immature, this is so unprofessional. But for a dare mind, it's like, yeah, he's willing to debate because he believes it so much he's willing to die for it and like, and fight this man in the studio. But meanwhile, we wouldn't do that. So Sam gets it. And I think the way he's doing it is beautiful for Muslims. How is he doing it?

I haven't watched his videos in a long time. He just like, an example would be like someone asked like, or someone would say on his live stream like, Oh, Islam is so beautiful. And then he'll be like, Oh yeah, like when Muhammad mounted Aisha, it's so beautiful. Like, he'll say like that. And then of course all the Christians like, Oh, it's so on Christ's light, but they need to hear it because they never thought about it. Yeah. Yeah. So who else? Cam and Bertuzzi.

Yeah, he's doing some more videos, isn't he? He is. I wish they had someone on the videos that spoke Arabic because Sam, I think Sam knows some Arabic. He must like the way he quotes the Quran is like, and his pronunciation is crazy good. So he must have at least grown up like speaking some, because I know he's from like a Syria Iraq area, or he learned some. For capturing Christianity, I wish they had someone who was more knowledgeable about Islam,

because I watched his videos about it, and it's amazing, but there's some points I can see a Muslim easily just like rebuke. Well, I'd be happy to put you in touch with Cameron. I'm sure he'd be open. I would love to talk to him about it. He's a good dude. Besides that, there's a few people like, what was his name? David Wood? Yeah. I love David Wood. He's been doing it for years.

Yeah. I knew about David Wood since I was like 12. And I don't know, I saw a video about him and I was like, oh, he's just being stupid. I didn't really think about it too much. And by far the most popular person ever is Nabil Quraishi who passed away in 2016. Have you read his work? I read his, what's it called? His autobiography? Oh, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. That's right. Yes, that's what it's called. I read that before I became a Christian and after I became a Christian. And before I became a Christian, I was like, okay, so cool, he had some dreams.

And then after I became a Christian, I was like, oh my goodness, this guy's story is amazing, praise God. I knew about him while I was still Muslim in Egypt. I was like 13 and I Messaged him on Facebook. You're like, hey, why would you leave Islam? I'm really curious. I wasn't really aggressive. I was really interested Yeah He never got back to me and then he was really popular at the time But yeah, his story in particular has moved Muslims around the world. And he's with our Lord now since 2016.

What advice would you have to a Muslim who might be watching this right now and they're terrified maybe because of external threats, but maybe because they just don't want to make the wrong decision and they don't want to offend Allah? Allah will not be offended because the first words in the Quran is Iqra, which means to read or seek knowledge. And if you're truly just trying to find out, I don't think Allah will be offended. Because if he is offended for seeking knowledge, then he's a pretty weak God. Same with Christianity.

If you're too afraid to go deep into your Bible and find the gory stuff in it because it might offend God, then maybe you're worshipping a different God than the true Jesus. Like, if you think God's gonna be offended for you looking up some stuff online, then that's a whole different discussion. I'm sure we will have some Muslims watching this because they're flirting with Christianity and they want to kind of hear what are some of these converts saying. I think a big one too is why is the Quran so human? And what I mean by that is like, this is more like to Muslims, like I asked myself this sometimes too when I was Muslim. There's a whole chapter in the Quran that's literally about insulting someone who insulted Muhammad.

Like, what? You're telling, like, why would the God of the universe reveal a chapter for such a specific event in human history? And not like, I don't know, the cure for cancer. Like, you know what I mean? So, like, why would he... He would not tell us about, like, how the Byzantine Empire is going to fall to Islam or how... Well, to be fair, we don't have a lot of those things in the Scriptures. We do when it comes to Christ. Like, the prophecies about Christ and the Old Testament are so amazing when it compares to Jesus.

And the Bible is not claiming to be a scientific book, while Muslims, a lot of Muslims claim the Quran has scientific miracles. Yeah, tell us about that, because I've heard that maybe embryology dates back there and the Big Bang is somehow predicted in there, but you would know more than me. So what do Muslims claim the Quran teaches and why are they wrong? So we kind of know where these claims came from. So there's one, the Big Bang one, where it says how the earth and the sky were together

and they separated. So supposedly that's the Big Bang, which sure, let's grant them that one. Okay. Embryology is very off. So we now know today that the bones and the flesh of the embryo are created, are forming at the same time, where the Quran says the bones form before the flesh. So it gets it off in some way.

And it's actually a direct copy of what the ancient Greeks thought about embryology. So what happened was a lot of the Greek stuff that was going on in ancient Greece was translated into Arabic, and by Muhammad's time it just got into the Quran. And we see this with other topics, like the stories about Jesus in the Quran are very Gnostic, and we'll finish the scientific miracles first, but the scientific miracles are basically just Greek medicine. One that is very much ancient Greek is that male sperm is created in the backbones, because they didn't know where the sperm was made. So it says in the Quran that the male sperm is created in your backbones.

And we all know that's not true. Like it's crazy. How do Muslim apologists respond to that? Do they say it's sort of a... Well, if you don't speak Arabic, they'll be like, well, an Arabic backbone also means testicle. But if I say, if I'm speaking with them, they're like, well, you're just an ignorant infidel and then they'll hang up. So I was like, that's what it seems. What happens. Um, I don't know how to respond about it.

Like in like a public setting or like in debate, I've seen them and they usually just change the subject or they do like Takeya where they lie about something and try to like change the subject, something else or they do like taqiyyah where they lie about something and try to like change the subject something else. Or say that like science has not found out yet that sperm is actually created in the backbones. So they'll actually say no science is wrong, the Quran is right. So things like that. The biggest ones for me were actually not the scientific miracles, but the Gnostic texts that made it into the Quran. Yeah, talk about that.

So, there are some strange stories about Jesus in the Quran. Two of the most popular ones is that when Jesus was just born, He speaks in the crib as a baby, and He says, I'm the messenger of Allah sent down to you, and He's like a day old and he's speaking. We know where this story is from. It's from the infant gospel of Thomas. The wording is different. So, it's the same story where Jesus is born like the first day out of the womb and he says, I am the logos, the word of God, worship me, something like that. So what the Quran did was take the exact same story and change the words. A really infamous one is the clay bird that comes to life, where Christ, he takes his

clay bird, he blows into it, and it becomes like a living bird. And this story is like a direct story from the Arabian Gospel, which was written, I don't know if it's called the Arabian Gospel or the Syriac Gospel, one or two, but it's a Gnostic Gospel and it's from the 4th, 5th century. So only like 100, 200 years before Islam begins, and it's in Arabia. So the historians and the Aryans and everyone around like Mecca would hear this story. And it talks about how Christ creates this bird out of clay. And of course, Muslims would just say like, well, maybe those are the true gospels and the fake gospels are the ones that are in the Bible.

But history obviously disproves that. But not just history, if that's true, it would disprove that Jesus is just a human. And the reason why that is, is because the way that Christ creates that clay bird, or the living bird from clay is the exact same way Allah creates humans from clay and then blows into it. So the story is a parallel to Allah creating humans, creating Adam, blowing into the clay, and then Adam becomes a living being. Then Christ blows into this bird, this bird becomes a living being. Who can create but God? Now Muslims will say like, oh well Christ created with the permission of God, but

then that's also an issue because God and Islam cannot have partners in creation. And if Jesus created something, even it was just that one clay bird with the permission of Allah, that means Allah needed Jesus to create this bird or he allowed Jesus to share in this divine nature in some way to create this bird. And that one is really troubling to me at least. I don't know how Muslims think about it because it goes against the whole concept of how Islam thinks and understands God and there's this quote in the Quran too or verse in the

Quran where this one's actually crazy because it's mistranslated terribly in English and it goes in Arabic a my son the Meriam hova karimat Allah will know that Jesus the son of Mary is the word of God and a spirit from him that was cast down, that Allah al-qahha, he cast down from heaven. In English it says Jesus is a word from heaven and created by the spirit of God. It doesn't say that in Arabic at all. The translation is butchered completely. The Arabic literally says, Jesus is God's Word and His Spirit cast down from heaven.

Basically, that's what it says. And I don't know how anyone can read that and be like, how, what, like, where is he getting this from? Obviously the Gospel of John, he's getting it from the Word with God and the Word was God. Right. So you have Muhammad plagiarizing, he's both Christian Gospels and Gnostic Gospels. Gnostic. And he's obviously hearing it because he's misquoting them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's misquoting them.

And I don't like, the word al-qaha is crazy to me because it means cast down. It doesn't mean create. Like, we still use it in Arabic today. Like, when I throw something off a building, like, that's what the word's used for. So if this is God's word that's thrown down from heaven into the womb of Mary, that sounds very divine, like if he was with God from the beginning, and then he goes back up to God because they believe Jesus ascended as well. So there's this prophet.

Not dying. He didn't die. Yeah. Apparently. Of course. And then he came down, lived a sinless life, and then before he died, of course, and then he like came down lived Like a sinless life and then before he died he was saved and ascended to heaven. Yeah Honestly, like it sounds like Jesus is more God in the Quran than in Christianity because he did keep he avoided death So the point you're making here is not that the account of Christ in the Quran is

here is not that the account of Christ in the Qur'an is historical, but that even if you were to accept it as historical, you would have reason to think He's divine. Yes. It's not historical, but it's very much, I think it's, I don't know how you can get around the concept that Jesus is not at least some way part of Allah. And isn't there also a misunderstanding of the Trinity and the Blessed Virgin comes in? I don't know what the thought process was or how they interpreted this, but the word Trinity is not even used in the Quran. It says, don't say that God is the third of three. So the things that we believe, God, like the Father, is one third, God. Jesus is

another third, and Mary is, because there's a quote that Jesus says that, I never said to worship me and my mother as gods, but then it also says that there's a spirit. So maybe there's like a fourth person involved. It doesn't get it right. There's some confusion. And I think what happened was like whoever wrote the Quran, because I actually don't think Muhammad wrote it, they just threw it out altogether. They were like, I don't know what's going on with the Christians, but obviously what they're believing is not right, so just not think about it. And they obviously didn't even ask a Christian. Pete It is interesting though that Islam arose within an historian culture in which Christ is thought to be sub-divine or something.

Jared Exactly. I would say Islam, I don't even think Islam is like another religion. The heresy of heresies. That's what I call it at least. It's the last great heresy left. It's the story and ism on steroids. And I think we have to stop viewing Islam as another religion. We have to start viewing it as a heresy that has to be... There needs to be some type of council. I don't know if it's like a church council.

There has to be a gathering of Christians saying, this is a heresy and it needs to be like some type of council. I don't know if it's like a church council There has to be a gathering of Christians saying this is a heresy and it needs to be stopped in the same way in a story ism is an Aryan ism was and narcissism like this is destroying Like the image of Christianity. We can't keep viewing it as another religion Yeah, I mean, what's the difference because I could see Christians have obviously gotten together and denounced Muhammad as a false prophet, and Islam is a false religion. That doesn't mean there aren't true elements. There are true elements in all religions, presumably.

That's true. But so what's the advantage in dismissing or rejecting Islam as a heresy instead of merely another religion? I think it brings it closer to home. I think it makes it... It makes people realize how like this has to be done now. And when we think of other religions, we think of like other cultures that like... Yeah, yeah, Buddhism. Evolved on its own and is very unique and God can reach them because they never really

knew Jesus. But when we think of heresies, we think of individuals who purposely twisted the Christian faith. Yeah. And it really does just sort of simplify the playing field. It's like, all right, we have these Eastern sort of philosophies. We have Judaism, which finds its fulfillment in Christianity. That's it. And then we have a Christian heresy called Islam or Muhammadism.

We have other Christian heresies as well. Historianism, et cetera. But it's the biggest one. Really, Christianity is it. Like that's your, that's the religion. You get to choose that or you get to choose Judaism. But I mean, why would you? Because the fulfillment is here. Yeah. Most of them don't even want you to convert. So there you go. They don't, which makes me want them all the more. That's a joke. They're like the girl who doesn't even want you. But yeah, then you've got just this heresy of Islam. So that's why I don't view it as another religion, because they also think we worship the same

God. Like, Buddhists don't think that we worship the same God. Muslim don't even think of the God. Hindus are not saying Vishnu and Christ are the same person. Most of them in general. Yeah. I'd say, I'd be happy saying we worship the same God as the Muslims. Can I share why? I don't know how disgusted you are with me at this point. I'm not disgusted, but... Yeah. Well, first of all, it would seem that the catechism indicates as much. But here would be my reasoning, and I'm open to changing my mind on this. It would actually be more convenient for me if I did. Well, what is God? Well, what if I say, well, God created the

universe. He's not the universe. He's something independent of the universe which created the universe. If the Muslim believes this, yes. Yeah. Right. So I also, I believe in that God too. Okay. And I just think that the Muslim believes perversions about God and falsities about God that the Christian doesn't. Yeah. So what's wrong with that? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah. I sometimes, I mean, again, I really am open and I don't want to lead anyone astray here because, but it just seems to me that I think sometimes the Christian wishes to distance himself from the Muslim and rightly so. And they think, well, the way to do that is to say, well, the Muslims are worshiping something else.

And okay, let me think about this. Let me say one more thing and then I'll have you refute me. Okay. If you wish. Here's the analogy I use. I suppose an atheist picks up a book on natural philosophy or natural theology and they don't believe in the existence of God. And then they find this book and it has, you know, let's say William Lane Craig's Five Proofs

of the Existence of God, the Kalam Argument, and so on, and they get through it. And they've got a few more chapters to go on the historicity of Christ and the resurrection and the truth. So they're about to get there, but they haven't yet. But after they've read those first four arguments that just make the case for basic theism, they shut their book and go, I believe. I think if we're willing to say that that person believes in God, even though they have not yet accepted Christ or the Trinity, we would say, well, they have a perverted view of God perhaps or an insufficient view of God. But we'd be probably willing to go, that's awesome that you believe in God. I believe in God too. We're talking about the same thing, the creator and sustainer of the universe.

We just haven't fleshed that out to a full blown Christian theism. So what's wrong with my view, do you think? What are the limits? The limit of what? What do you mean? Of what God is. Like, a Mormon will say that they believe in God, but I don't think they believe in the same God that we do.

Yeah, that's a good point. Because that God's created. Yeah, let me try to think that through. Yeah, well, that would be a... I mean, right now, thinking this through and being willing to change my mind, it would seem to me that I have more in common with the Muslim than the Mormon. Because the Mormon believes that God was once a man and was in fact created and is one among many gods, that we are obligated

to worship this one God, they would say, and yet he was once a man like we are who possessed a godhood. I mean, just if I isolate that claim and I look at the claim of the Muslim who says that God is eternal and all powerful and created the world and is separate from the world, just those two isolated claims, I'm like more in, I'm more in common with the Muslim and the Mormon. I think we have more in common with the Muslim. I do. But we have to understand why Islam was created. Islam was created to basically denounce Christianity. The whole Quran talks about why Christians are wrong about Jesus.

Yep. And it throws some shade to the Jews as well, because why not? Because you do believe the Jews worship the same God as Christians. It's just they have an insufficient view of God, don't you? That's a very interesting question. And I'll say the jury's out. Yeah, I appreciate the epistemic humility. I don't know.

Yeah, but that would be my position until I'm proven otherwise. I'm more acceptable to it now than I was before. Like I would go as far as to say that Islam, I'm very open to it being demonically inspired and even a sort of demonic mind virus on the earth. I'm okay with that. But I think I can say that and also say

that the sincere Muslim, right, has mistaken and perverted views about God and our blessed Lord Jesus Christ. But I can accept that he believes in God if he tells me that. Are you talking about Islam or the Muslim? Because I do think Muslims in general believe in the same God. I don't think Islam is the same God. I think the origins of Islam are from quote unquote a different God. I see. I think I 100% And by different, you mean like a demonic spirit? A fallen angel, demonic spirit.

I would be open to that. I think it's a mixture of humans and demonic spirits. Whereas for like Mormonism, I think it's just humans. That's why it's always been fascinating to me that the woke leftists are like weird bedfellows with the Muslims. Hasn't that always struck you as odd? Like these LGBT people or people who think they're animals are like all about the poor innocent Muslim while denouncing the Christian? We used to use it like we when I say

Muslims, well not anymore, like we'd use it as like a weapon almost. Like we kind of knew what to do. Like we'd just be like we're brown, we're a minority. Hey, the Christians, they colonized us. Don't you remember the French when they took over Lebanon? What about the Crusades? Like, we just say these little words and it works. And Muslim imams, they know what they're doing and they know how to get... The whole goal is to take over no matter what, remember? So if we can use the left to take over the entire Western hemisphere, so be it. It's actually ingenious.

There's this real hatred of Western civilization that you see in, I think, both Islam and the left. Which is ironic because, at least in the Middle East, they're like, we hate America, while they watch their videos from their iPhone and then talk about how they love watching Kanye West sing. I don't know, just random, everything about the West they want, like Kanye West sing. I don't know, like just random, like everything about the West they want, but not the actual West. And it's very interesting

how that works, how you want, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have the goodness of Western society without the Western society. So yeah. This has been awesome. Thanks so much for making this trip. Yeah, no problem. For sharing your story. It's really powerful. We have some questions from our local supporters, of which you're one. I am one.

So you could ask yourself a question, technically. Why am I so good looking? Yeah, like that. It's a great question. If only the questions I'm about to ask you are so softball. Let's have a look here. Katie did it says, what do you feel Muslims get right about family and roles of men and women?

Honestly, the male versus female brain, I think. Islam knows how men think and knows that a man, like, you know, the saying goes, a man thinks about sex every six seconds, and it knows that very well. And it also knows what a woman wants. A woman wants someone to protect her, like, and that's why there's this huge gender role. It doesn't mean that's a good thing, but it just means the way the religion is created is obviously had a lot of thought process about how men and women interact and from like both from like social and cardinal and

Political everything in in your experience of interacting with Muslim families and being a part of one. Did you see? Things that you thought that's that's cool, and Christians should learn from this? Or no? Yes, modesty. Yeah. Like, But see, this is, no matter, but it sounds like what you're saying is whatever that we can learn from the Muslims is already in our religion.

We're just not obeying it, maybe. No, we're not obeying it. Yeah. But okay. Everything from Islam, well, it's not from Islam, but it exists in Christianity, but it's lacking at least in the last 100 years of Christianity. So, modesty at church. I would never see a Muslim walk into a mass with a tank top or shorts. I see that at mass like traveling all the time. And obviously, that's like more of a North American thing.

Like you do that in Italy, people can kick you out. But the way that that space is treated, even though there's nothing sacramental occurring, like it's treated like, no, you can't just walk in here. Looking like that. You can't really walk around like that anyways. There are rules for how men should dress and how women should dress,

and there are just the way you live life with modesty. So yeah. Yeah, that's great. Thanks. Jay Taylor 90 says, when discussing faith with a Muslim, what are the best couple talking points to get them thinking without it coming across like an attack? I would say the first thing you do is actually something you shouldn't do, is that never bring up personal experiences or emotions. So I talked about how you should evangelize different people in different ways.

So when you're evangelizing again to the Mormons, always use emotions and like feelings. Islam doesn't like that. No one cares if you were in adoration and you felt good. We want to know how is it logical that a man can be God? How is it logical that there could be a trinity? Islam doesn't care if you feel happy singing your songs. Muslims want to have logic in their religion. And I guess you have to use philosophy almost. They will really respect you if you start using philosophical arguments for God. Good. But they will lose interest quickly

if you say, I feel good at mass. Yeah, I mean, I do too. I feel like that. I lose interest when people tell me that. Same. I mean, I guess I would say I lose interest if people tell me that as if that alone is what should convince me.

I can see why it convinces them. You know, you had this experience but experiences by their nature are subjective But if I'm to come on board, I need a reason That's probably my biggest issue with a lot of because more ones often act like that They talk about this burning in the bosom they you know, and I can't stand it because I'm like, that's awesome Now, why do you believe Joseph Smith's a prophet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, again, I think it's legitimate for someone who's had that experience, and it's connected to a particular faith tradition to justify that. I do think one can be justified in that way epistemically through religious experience. I'm not denying that. But yeah, yeah, okay, so rigorous kind of philosophical.

Philosophical discussion is reversed. Okay, Titus Tuss says, is the acceptance of polygamy within Islam a barrier for conversion to Christianity? How should the church resolve converts who have multiple wives, quote unquote? Converts have multiple wives quote unquote. Converts have multiple wives. That'd be interesting.

Like imagine if you were married to like quote unquote to three women and then you became a Christian. I guess you have to give up the second to the last two. Imagine, they pick one to three. Sorry. I don't know how that would work. You're being voted off the island. Yeah. I guess the marriage would just be annulled all of them yeah you just

again you have to pick one I've never thought about that in my life it's interesting I have no idea Monica says is violence intrinsic to Islam or an extremist sex abusing the tenets of the religion the tenets of the religion? Violence is a hundred percent intrinsic to Islam. Like one of the last phrases that Muhammad said is, I'll say it in Arabic first, امرت أن قاتلون الناس حتى أن يقولون لا إله إلا الله that I have been commanded to fight the world until everyone says there is no God but Allah. So the last thing he said to his followers was to fight. It is a hundred percent intrinsic to the religion. In the same way, love is a hundred percent part of Christianity.

Okay. Ben says, what are some things that Catholics misunderstand about Islam? I think people in general, but Catholics as well, misunderstand what the Quran is. Like the Quran isn't like beginning, middle, end. It's not like the story of Genesis and Moses and then the prophets. It's like someone's subconscious rant. So it will go on about, it'll talk about how Adam's created, and then it'll talk about why Moses gave us the commandments and then why you shouldn't eat pork. And by the way, you can have four wives. Also, remember Moses? Yeah, he also said there's his utter commandment. And Jesus is a cool person, but he's not God. There's no order at all. The most common phrase is, remember when, like, we were in an audience. Like, remember when

it was told to you by Joshua that, do not go into the land until this happens. We're part of the audience. So you can see that this Quran is from an oral culture. They're saying these stories to people. And I don't think most people realize that, because they usually don't read the Quran or just don't look into it. But the Quran is very different from the Bible. I was in shock by how organized the Bible is. I almost seemed like it was forged together to convince someone it's true. It didn't seem like it came out naturally. So yeah.

Okay. Joe Ward asks, in theory, a Muslim could believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, just not in the divinity of Christ, is there any sort of sacramentality in Islam? So maybe you want to take issue with his assumption, but his broader question is, is there any sort of sacramentality? The whole Islam's concept of tawhid, like the oneness of God, would separate any being or substance being with God. So Christ could not be part of like the Eucharist anyway. God could not be part of like anything. He's outside of that.

And when it comes to like sacramental, I don't think there's anything sacramental. Like I was at a Muslim wedding recently and it was my first Muslim wedding actually. And I was in shock, maybe because it's been like, I don't know, eight, nine, ten years now since I left Islam, but I was in shock by how legal it was. Like, the Imam sat there, there was two people, there was a three-witness and I was like,

you want to marry her? You want to marry him? Okay, sign here, sign here. All three sign here. Awesome. You're married and God's eyes next. Like, I was like, what? I was like, what is going on? Like, there's no concept of a sacrament. It's all legal. It's all like a legal, like same when you convert to Islam. To convert to Islam, all you need is to raise your right hand and say, there's no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet and two witnesses and you're Muslim. So sacramental is not really a thing. Okay.

Yeah. Lisa asks, how did you wrap your mind around the Trinity? This is going to sound shocking. I've never had a problem with the Trinity. I have not once, like, even as a Muslim, I knew exactly what Christians meant when they were talking about the Trinity. They were saying, like, the way I thought of it was like, okay, God's in heaven. He came down as a son, Jesus, and He lives in Christians as the Holy Spirit.

So He's three distinct people, but it's the same God. Awesome. I never had an issue with that. And then when the whole concept of God is love, where the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and that love is so powerful and precious that it's the Holy Spirit. I never had a problem with that. And I'm almost in shock that people do.

Like, maybe I'm... I mean, it's a mystery that we can't understand fully, sure, but... And it's something we wouldn't have arrived at through natural reason. It was revealed to us, but it was never a st wouldn't have arrived at through natural reason it was revealed to us But it was never a stumbling block for you as a Muslim. Is that a dogma that we could never reach it? Well, I don't know if it's a dogma But yeah, it's be it's taught by the first Vatican Council Thomas Aquinas affirms it Okay, that we wouldn't know about the Trinity unless it was revealed to us. That's why I mean there have been

Philosophers who've tried to argue that we can know, I want to say it's St. Richard of someone, but I may, it doesn't matter, who made the argument that love requires three things, and one is the love, one is a lover, and I'm not saying that's a bad analogy, I think it's a good analogy, it's just that no, we can't know that unless it was revealed to us. Yeah. That's very, that could be true. Yeah.. But there never was an issue and I understood it. If people are interested, I don't know what you think about this, but the way I like to talk about Trinity, my children, if they ask, excuse me.

What does it mean to say God is one, but God is three persons? mean to say God is one, but God is three persons? I would say, okay, a statue, either statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary over there, right? That's a being in philosophy. We talk about existing things as beings. This is a being which is zero persons. You are a being who is one person God is a being who is three persons. Does that make sense? Not really good Yeah, but that'll do I find that yeah, I just think that's a helpful way. I think as soon as you start getting into like Three leaf clovers or I don't like that. Yeah nice gas and liquid you like now you're venturing into heresy accidentally And you might mean well, yeah Yeah, I see that too often where people are like they use an analogy liquid, you're like, now you're venturing into heresy accidentally, and you might mean well. Yeah. Yeah. I see that too often where people are like, they use an analogy, but the analogy always ends up

being like a fourth century heresy. Well, how have you found, have you found a particular way helpful in explaining to Muslims the Trinity? The best way I can see it is, so God is Word, His breath, and like, Himself. Intellect, or? His intellect, sure. And when God, so in the Quran it says, God said, be, and it is. So God uses His Word to create. But the Word obviously has to exist before the being for it to be used. And while He's using that, in the same way that when we talk, our breath comes out,

God's Spirit floats on the world, creating it. So all of them are acting as one. There are three things occurring. The being are the thing that forces it, the intellect, the word being spoke, and the breath, the spirit going with the word to create. And that seems to always make a lot of sense to Muslims. Okay, good. Thank you. Final question here from Ryan Pinkowski. What can Catholics learn from Muslim devotionals and prayer life?

We've got to step it up, like, big time. Like, we have the liturgy of the hours, like the five times that priests and religious orders pray. But the lay Muslim does that on a daily basis. We complain when the mass is more than an hour. I remember as a Muslim, I wanted the Friday prayer to go for like four hours, like, let's do it, let's keep going. And... Because it's almost like a military, like you're like... It's a very manly religion. You want to like go out and like... And if you're a peaceful Muslim, go out and fight something, like do something, where Christianity has kinda become like, we're gonna tell you what we've done for you, and then you guys go home, and then, I don't know, see you next Sunday.

And then if you feel called, maybe say in our Father before you go to bed. Like, we have our tools, we have our rosary, we have the liturgy of the hours, we have daily mass adoration, they're always there if you live in like most cities. Even if you don't, you can spend 30 minutes a day, I think every individual can spend 30 minutes a day in prayer. Unless you're working a job that's super intense, you can do 10 minutes a day. I don't think there's ever an excuse not to be as devout Yeah, we need Christians to be way more hardcore

I remember being at New York and my wife and I were leaving the airport I were leaving New York to go back to here or wherever we were living and We drove past you know how there's a bunch of buildings on the way to the airport for like rental car places and stuff And there was a Muslim outside doing his prayers and prostrations. I just thought, Christians, you could be such a witness to the world. And many are. Yeah, many are. But we need to step it up. But it seems like there's more Muslims are developed than there are Christians are developed. By significant number.

Yeah, we shouldn't let the Muslims put us to shame in their fasting and in their prayers. Because from the Muslim perspective, like, why would I join this faith that tells me nothing to do? Like, Lent, for example. Give up sweets? You're kidding me? I almost laughed when someone said they're going to give up, what was it? Complaining. Complaining.

Okay, that one, I can't even comprehend it when someone's like, I'm going to give up swearing for lunch. And I was like, maybe just stop swearing. Maybe give up sin always. God's tubes to conquer and God bless you. But yeah. Yeah. And you're like, I'm going to not eat meat on Ash Wednesday. And I think I've done it. And I was like, yeah, there's still 40 more days afterwards. But like a Muslim sees that and they see us saying, I'm fasting while I'm eating my Snickers bar. And they're like, this is a joke. Meanwhile, they haven't eaten or drinking in 18 years. Well, God bless, I think honestly, here's who we should look to, to bless us Roman Catholics,

is the cops. And many of the Orthodox, they really do, many of them put the Roman Catholic Church to shame in how they take serious the fasts, you know. The Coptics are vegan for nine months out of the year. I need a Coptic on my show. I need a good Coptic priest on my show. I love the Coptics. They are amazing people and I've never encountered one, even though they don't think we're like fully like in communion, but they've never treated me like,

I'm like a heretic or like a papus. There's a lot of, I find whenever I'm, and I don't know if it's just because they have not yet seen the sort of influx of Protestant converts than say, Greek or Russian Orthodox you have. Maybe that's the case. I'm sure they're about to, but I don't find hostility from them. No, I do find hostility from my Orthodox brethren, but it's almost always when they're a Protestant convert. I've noticed that. I'm not sure what it is. If I find like the regular guy has been Orthodox his whole life, he loves me as a brother, his Catholic brother, and the Coptics seem like that to me. The people who seem really pissed off with me, they were Protestant five minutes ago. It's interesting.

That's just been my experience. I'm sure there are great Protestant converts and there are some thorny Orthodox lifers, but that's just been my... Yeah, 100% but that's also been like my experience too was like Protestants who convert to Catholicism even well, they convert to this idea of Catholicism. Yeah, like what do you mean? You don't pray your rosary and like Latin from the fifth century It's like one shards of glass on your knees you lose it No there is a there is a tiresome tendency on the part of converts to think of their newfound faith as a sort of Eden without corruption or snakes from which they sneer at their separated

brethren and it's understandable, like congratulations, you know, I understand what's happening. You've found this certainty in this faith clad, but it's a bit obnoxious. And I find that people who are kind of mature in the faith don't take that sort of patronizing approach. They tend to be hard on themselves and gentle on others. And I was guilty of it at like the first few months. Yeah, me too. Everyone is like, not to bring up something that you've done, but you said this story once

How when you first had your conversion you went to this party? Oh my gosh, and told them about Jesus and they said no and you recited the Nicene Creed. That was my girlfriend Oh, was it your girlfriend? Yeah, my son my children loved this story We were sitting in my living room and she laughed at me and I recited the Creed at her and then I stood up And left and what was funny is she was in my house. And oh, yeah. Yeah. No. And so it's like, yep. All right. So that energy and that enthusiasm. Good. You should have it. But also there needs to be a prudence. Like prudence is that virtue, which enables us to act in accord with right reasons. So that's important. We need that.

I've definitely done that with my family and like my friends from high school after my conversion where I just went there and I was like, I have like the cure for everything. I got to sit them down and force them to take the cure. Yeah. But like the first month, they were like, what's wrong with this man? Okay, he's freaking me out. Dude, back to the Creed to my girlfriend thing. Think about this. This girl has never heard the Creed. She never went to church a day in her life. So I just look at her and I go, I believe in God. And at that point,

she's like, oh, he believes in God. Oh, he's still going. And then it goes on for like three or five minutes and she was terrified. Yeah. Yeah. God have mercy on me. No, that's crazy. But again, I think that passion is beautiful in a way. Yeah. It's better to have it and then have it directed than to not have it and nothing to direct. It makes a funny story when that person becomes a Christian. Yeah, I hope so. I hope they didn't get in the way. But listen, thank you for coming on my show and sharing your story. Tell people where they can learn more about you.

Yeah, so Instagram, it's Ish of Arabia. So how do you spell that? Ish of Arabia. And then my YouTube channel has the same handle. If I forget to put it in the YouTube channel, please remind me. Move heaven and earth to tell me and I will get it in there immediately. Okay. Yeah. And my name is Ishmael Youssef. So it's I-S-M-A-I-L, Y-O-U-S-S-E-F. So you'll find me on YouTube or wherever. And I just make videos every few months just trying to talk about Islam and why I don't think it's from God, basically. And right now it's been pretty

successful, at least on... People have taken my videos to put on TikTok, and those ones have went viral. Really? But I do not use TikTok. i don't want to even look at it take garbage out i also use it but i have someone else do the posting that's the best way to do it i gotta once i get up there somebody else do my herdi work yeah you go in there and put stuff in there i don't want to have a look but someone messaged me once they're like yeah i saw you on TikTok it's like i don't use it and they're like oh here i'll show you it's like 65 000 views I'm like okay glory to God yeah glory to God yeah all right thanks a lot no problem thank you so much