Pints With Aquinas - From Witchcraft to Jesus Christ (Shayne Smith) | Ep. 576

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Starting point is 00:00:32 The next, you're installing a shelf in the back room. Running a business means moving in many directions all the time. TD's new small business banking accounts are built for how your business moves. It's how we're making banking more human. I feel like you became Catholic about five seconds before it became cool. Do you think I made it cool? Maybe it was you. It must be weird to be expected to be funny.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Yeah. You show up at a place and they're like, we're so stoked you're here. This is going to be our funniest episode of all time. I'm not doing bits, dude. I'm just here to be me. Tell me about why someone would cut their nose off of magic and what the point is there. It's about sacrifice.

Starting point is 00:01:08 It's a mockery of the sacrifice to God. Black magic, I'm like, oh, it's all, you're just doing reverse Catholicism. You guys are obsessed with us. After shows, I started to have people confront me and be like, I want my money back. No, you haven't. Yes.

Starting point is 00:01:22 Tell me how that conversation goes. The obsession with balance and marriage is gone. You're not two people, you're one person. There's nothing balanced about. this. I want to get to the point where I wake up and I want to interpret reality based on what my wife and kids need. But I know that if I did do that, I could actually finally be happy. I know. So what's the difference between the sugar-free? Yeah, this has zero sugar, but why do you care? I mean, if you're drinking a red bowl, a bowl, a bed roll. A bed roll. If you drink two bed rolls

Starting point is 00:02:02 a day, that adds up quick. With sugar. That could be, that's like a meal. But what about the I mean, the caffeine alone will kill you, won't it? Yeah. Let's see. I'm here for a good time. Not a long time, sir. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can't tell the sugar in that.

Starting point is 00:02:20 It's very sweet. It's very strong. I haven't had a Red Bull in a minute. Or a bed roll. A bed roll. Yeah, this is good. Dude, we're going to get fired up. About halfway through the podcast.

Starting point is 00:02:31 We're going to take our shirts off. Stick around. It's going to be great. You're just going to have your jacket tied to your forehead. We're sweating. this is good oh man thanks for coming on again it's always nice to talk to people i want to talk to i know it right yeah unlike that other guy everyone who's watching the show is like hey i was on his show i know it's the thing where you go you always say like something professionally nice about

Starting point is 00:02:53 someone and then you think to yourself what if the other people i'm professional with but then you go if they're being insecure then they know it's that's on that's on them i'll be honest though i don't people don't believe me when i tell them this but i just interview who i want to talk to Yeah, and that's, it really works for me because I don't have a poker face. So if I don't want to talk to you, I don't know how to pretend. I think I've, well, no, I know I've seen you talk to people you don't want to talk to you. I don't think I've ever watched on a show or in person? In person.

Starting point is 00:03:21 I've seen you in person talk to quite a few people where you're like, mm-hmm. And you're very gracious and kind. Oh, that's good. But I see myself in you, which is why. Really? I'm watching you absorb the encounter and maybe it's a little awkward or inappropriate or strange. and you're so gracious, but I can feel you kind of shifting gears. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:03:43 And do you watch me, and you look at me and go, am I like that? Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I do. I look at you and I go, hmm, similar kind of vibes here. Don't do that. Yeah, no. Look how bad it looks. Don't do anything.

Starting point is 00:03:55 He says, oh, he's being so Australian right now. I got a. Yeah. And you said, you're moving into a house and the two things you care about are a garage and a study. Yes, sir. Those are the only two things. So we're moving. I told my wife, you do anything you want. The yard, the home, the neighborhood, all of it you can just be in charge of. I don't care. The things that are most important to me are,

Starting point is 00:04:18 the most important thing is that I'm out in the country, which is a given, right? We're in Utah, we're on the middle of nowhere. But then I need a study so I can, I can, technically kind of like your office. You're kind of killing it right now. Yeah, you're doing great right here. So a little study, a little study area. where I can read my little books and write on my fake typewriter. That's actually a digital thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Free type or free write or something like that. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:46 Or a bring your own keyboard is what it's called. Mine is called. And then I need a garage. Not for a car. That's lame stuff. Cars can just live outside. They're made a metal. What you can do inside your garage is you can get jacked.

Starting point is 00:05:00 Okay? And that's the most important thing you can do in there, followed closely by playing Warhammer. Those two things. Now, is Warhammer, I never played it? Is that a game with little figurines? It is. They look really neat.

Starting point is 00:05:13 They do. And is that it, forgive the stupid question. But how many people do you play it with? You can play it with like multiple people. Very often it's a one-on-one game though. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And you like build the models and you paint them.

Starting point is 00:05:25 Yes. Yeah, it's a whole hobby. It's very fun. I enjoy it. And I find the guys who do it are always like really laid back and cool. and artistic and like, is it autistic? Yes. Artistic, autistic, you know what?

Starting point is 00:05:39 There's a Vend, there's a Vend, a Spen diagram. And they're in there, for sure. No, I find a very, when I go to, I went to a comic book store with my son recently and we saw all the guys back there. And there's just something really neat about the landscape that you build. Have you ever built those? Oh, yeah. Big time.

Starting point is 00:05:56 Big time. And I go even nerdyer. Yeah. So the Warhammer guys, they, there's a group of people they look at and they go, Whoa, you guys are pretty nerdy. And I'm with that group also. So they're looking at guys who do something called historicals. So I've painted like 10,000 little Napoleonic soldiers.

Starting point is 00:06:14 And then you move them around the board and you do a lot of complicated math. And you play out like, you know, the Battle of Ailow or whatever. So those guys look at the wall hammer guys as jokes. Yes. Genuinely, yes. And then those historical guys look at a different group of guys like these guys are dorks. And I'm also with those guys. Well, what's that one?

Starting point is 00:06:34 Trains, brother. Big time. Just trains? Just model trains and model boats. What's the nerdiest you can get in the kind of board game community? In the board game community? Yeah. Nice.

Starting point is 00:06:46 In the board game community, the nerdiest you can get is simulating world, or like war games, which I also do. So there's a game called Advanced Squad Leader. And that's different to this history. That's different to this stuff because it's self-contained board game with cardboard chits. and the rulebook is this thick and it takes like hours and hours and hours to play and it's a simulation

Starting point is 00:07:08 you're on the table simulating like the dissipation of smoke as your soldiers run across the street and like you're you've got like the actual for real city plans of Stalingrad and you're looking through the sewer trying to flank Russians you know or whatever you're up to

Starting point is 00:07:23 so you've told me in the past that you have an amazing imagination you can sit there shut your eyes and go somewhere right um is that do you think that's why you love this stuff so much. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anytime I'm playing, like, I mean, I, I literally sometimes my daughter, like, just has, you know, she's like, got to take toys into the, into the shower or whatever. And sometimes I'm like, dude, if I had a Batman in the shower, though, you know what I mean? Like, I'm an imaginer, so I can still play. So I love it. Anytime I'm like, I got a bunch of soldiers

Starting point is 00:07:54 on the table, I'm, like, loving it. I play against myself. Yeah, that's, that's like one level upgraded super nerdy. This is the stuff like when I was when I was a heathen when I was a different type of person, I was in New York and I went on a date, the very, very well-to-do woman and I brought her home to my apartment and I thought, this is going great. I'm in New York, this beautiful lawyer ladies in my apartment and she saw my board game collection and she said, excuse me, I have to go and she left. Is that right? Never talk to me for the rest of my life, yeah. And you'll show that's why she left. Yes, I'm 100% positive. The look on her. faces she saw that I had a walk-in closet, not filled with clothes, but a hundred board games of varying

Starting point is 00:08:37 difficulties and degrees. All about war. Is what I love about that. The fact that it's in a closet means you had to usher her in to show her. I did. On purpose. Yes. She didn't stumble across it. Nope. I said, this'll impress it. I said, want to see something cool? And I was wrong. But you know what? The Lord works in mysterious ways because that was very close to my conversion. And And you know what? I don't need to be hanging out with some woman I don't know. Some boy, a woman who doesn't like games. And do you know what I did do?

Starting point is 00:09:07 Stand in that room and imagine playing one of my favorite board games. Sometimes my wife walks in and I just stand in my office and I'll look at a rulebook for like an hour. And that's like in my head I play the game. See, what is that? What is that called? I don't know. I'm just enjoying it. Like I really, like sometimes all I have to do is set the pieces out to begin the game.

Starting point is 00:09:27 And then I just look at it and I can imagine the game playing. out and it's really satisfying. That is remarkable. And I can do that and then actually play the game. Like, and my strategies are the things I'm, they usually work out. So could you do that with chess? I'm bad at chess, but I could. I can have a bad game of chess.

Starting point is 00:09:45 I'm like a, I think I'm like a 1500 rated player on like bullet chest and stuff. See, the fact that you even know where you are on the ladder. But like that's playing bullet chess, which is like, uh, you have a second to make a move. Yeah. And so 1500 is like deep. It's above average, I would guess. But like that version of chess is the dumb guy version of that's the jock version of chess. What I really want to play is like a 10 minute timer where it's being thoughtful.

Starting point is 00:10:13 Yeah, yeah. He's brilliant at chess. Is he? You're shockingly good. My brother is very good at chess. People who are good at chess blow my mind. I can't. So I can hold the pieces in my mind, but there are people who they can, they visualize the board in

Starting point is 00:10:26 such a way that they're just so familiar with it that it just takes years to get. I once wanted to get good at chess. And so I thought, well, the way I'll do it is I'll download it on my iPad. And then I'll just play the computer and no one needs to know how terrible I am. And so I'm sitting on this flight and I open up my chess game. And the guy next to me leaned in. I went, oh, chess, cool. And he was watching me.

Starting point is 00:10:49 And I'm like, oh, no. I would literally turn it off and start block blasting. I would just or I would just start doodling really inappropriate. Just, hey, stop watching my screen. Just drawing your plane crashing. He's looking at you. You're like, oh my God. You're like, yeah, yeah, don't look at this.

Starting point is 00:11:08 Because Jimmy Aiken has this, is neurodivergent the way to put it? Yeah. Like, he's able to see things and he sees colors when he hears music. Oh, dude, Jimmy Aiken is sliding between realms. He's out of the Matrix, man. Morpia's offered him the pills and he took both at once. That's what happened to Jimmy Aiken. So now he's on another level, dude.

Starting point is 00:11:29 I love that guy. I've never met. He's the only, like, Catholic superhero that I haven't met. I saw the Pope. When? I saw the Pope before Jimmy Aiken. I went to Rome. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that, what was it? It was, I just saw him give an address. Yeah, we went from my baby moon. Well, me and my wife were joking. We called it our white trash honeymoon. Okay. Because she, we didn't go on a honeymoon after we got married because I had so much work. And so we had to wait. By the time we went on the honeymoon, she was seven months pregnant. So it looks like we got married while she's seven months pregnant and now we're on a honeymoon in Rome. So we called it the trailer Trash Honeymoon, White Trash Honeymoon. It was pretty fun.

Starting point is 00:12:08 But yeah, we went and saw the Pope. I yelled out, you're the Pope that's eating the most hot dogs. And he gave me the thumbs. Yeah, I am the Pope that's eating the most hot dogs. Because he's from America? Because he's from Chicago. Okay. He's a hot dog guy.

Starting point is 00:12:21 Chicago. No. Are you, are you kidding me? No. Are you, do you think there's a Pope that's eating more hot dogs? Now that I think of it, no. Yeah, you're right. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:12:32 Do you think he heard you say that? I hope he did. I hope he knows. I think he knows. He has to know. I love you. You've eaten the most hot dogs, he's poop.

Starting point is 00:12:43 You know, when he became Pope, his brothers would say he still plays wordal with them? Yes, yes. I would break my phone and just disconnect from every other. If you became the Pope? I think I did. I think I would need to play wordal with my brother more than ever. How about this?

Starting point is 00:12:58 How about, was it, what was the game, Hammer? Warhammer? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about Warhammer in the Vatican? And you invoke by your closest bros. That's crazy. Oh my gosh. That would be so cool.

Starting point is 00:13:12 Yeah. Would you make me a cardinal? Would you make me a Cardinal? Oh, dude, I would be the worst Pope. You know how we, you look at church history, and sometimes something crazy happens, and then we get like a wild pope. And then when, as I was converting, I'm looking at, into these scandals and I'm like very serious. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. Men are sick. Yeah. Yeah. The church is for sick,

Starting point is 00:13:35 man. This makes sense. But now that I'm like so Catholic, like it's just, it just is. I just am Catholic. I look at the bad Pope and I go, that'd be me. I would also be the bad one. That would immediately just like, let's play baseball in the Vatican. And also, I guess I'll have a girlfriend. You know, just the worst, like how a lay person ends up as a Pope is so fine. Or just the worst guy. And now I think about it and I go, yeah, I'm not better. It's best that he does it and I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, truly, thank God for the Pope.

Starting point is 00:14:08 He's doing a great job as compared to how I would do. So whenever we're doubting Pope Leo, just think of Shane Smith playing baseball. Exactly. And Warhammer, the Swiss Guard all patiently watching me play Warhammer. Pawsing you Diet Cokes. I know. Let me hold your Halbrid, please. Let me hold it.

Starting point is 00:14:27 I feel powerful when I have that. the blade. Oh man, this is good. So I feel like you became Catholic about five seconds before it became cool. Isn't that crazy? Do you think of that? Do you think I made it cool? Do you think I might have maybe it was you? Busted it wide open and everyone's like, dude, if Shane's doing it like, I guess we should be Catholic. Yeah, it is cool now. Every, like a lot of people are Catholic. I think that 2026 is the very first year. I've gotten more positivity than negativity. Really? And I'm a decent amount of negativity, but... Didn't you get death threats?

Starting point is 00:15:02 Last year was crazy. The year before that, the first year I converted, was that 2023? Time is flying by. That was a bad one. Like, I mean, people threatening my family, my work, my friends. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy.

Starting point is 00:15:18 Because you're so funny, it's so ironic, isn't it? Like, you're joining a hateful religion. Right. You know, no, totally. That was the thing where they were like, I can't believe. And then they call you like, a flip-flopper, which makes sense. To flip-flop, I think you need to, I would need to... Hold the position,

Starting point is 00:15:34 abandon the position. And then, and then re-hold the position. And even then, why would you be... I don't know. Anyway, but they were mad that I changed my mind. And I was like, but don't you aren't, isn't it your mission to change people's minds? So if you're mad at me for changing my mind, wouldn't someone who you're trying to bring to your position then feel less than based on the fact that changing your mind is bad, question mark. Like I don't, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. So I am really excited to tell you that I have partnered with Theotokos Rosaries. These are, without a doubt, the most beautiful rosaries I have ever seen in my life. Thetocos Rosary sent me one maybe about a year ago or so. And I remember being absolutely blown away. You probably heard me talking about it. I've sent one to my mom and dad and

Starting point is 00:16:23 uncle, I give them to some of the guests that we have and everyone who receives one is blown away. These are just a total different caliber. And when you think about the kind of money we're willing to spend on a phone, it's like, you know, sure, you can pray a rosary on your fingers or on a string rosary and it would work just the same, obviously. But if you're looking for a beautiful rosary that's more of an also like an heirloom, something that you could have for life, check this out. Go to dailywire.com slash shop and pick up one of these.

Starting point is 00:16:55 This is more of the masculine one. This one, they based on St. Peter's Basilica. So it has real stone beads and Italian olive wood. This one is inspired by Notre Dame in Lyon, France. So you might want to, again, pick this up. It'd be a beautiful ordination gift, a gift for those who are getting married. Maybe Father's Day, Mother's Day. like honestly a beautiful gift.

Starting point is 00:17:22 I remember what moved me so much is when I sent this to my, I won't say who because I don't want to call them out, but a family member who doesn't actually pray the rosary, they started praying the rosary. And I think it's honestly because it's so beautiful and so sacred looking. So again, go to dailywire.com slash shop to pick one up today. And thank you to Theotokos Rosaries for partnering with us. Did you have cold feet coming into Catholicism?

Starting point is 00:17:46 Yes. Yeah, I was terrified. But you don't seem that way anymore. No. No, now I'm kind of like, just kill me. Just martyr me, I'll just go to heaven. It'll be all right. Your stand-up comedy special?

Starting point is 00:17:59 You wouldn't call it that, would you? But your stand-up comedy routine that you did at Sikh, which is objectively hilarious. And everyone I spoke to, there would have been like 10,000 people in that room, it seemed like. It was a lot. I was told that it was like six, maybe. It was a lot. It was great.

Starting point is 00:18:16 I remember specifically being nervous. It was the first time I'd been nervous to perform for a long time. And they kind of just hand me the mic and I walk out and it's this, you know, see of people as far as I can see. I feel like I'm in the movie Dune, you know, like walking out. There's just people. And I was like, whoa. And I remember thinking, okay, pretty cool. Just perform.

Starting point is 00:18:34 Whatever. It's a lot of people. And I look to my left. And it, in just this block of 200 plus nuns in one group all looking at me. And I was like, this is the worst situation. you could be in right now. If I, and I remember distinctly thinking in my mind,

Starting point is 00:18:53 while you're performing, do not look at the nuns. Because if you do a joke and you look over and you see 200 nuns sternly looking at you, you go, I would melt. I would just simply melt away and die.

Starting point is 00:19:05 But so it's basically your conversion story. It is. It's almost, it was the opposite of Ricky, you know how Ricky Juvais uses comedy to preach his atheism? It's almost like that,

Starting point is 00:19:15 but the opposite. It's hilarious. You mentioned that, because his special is what inspired me. I watched it, thought this is funny. I enjoyed this despite the fact that I'm a believer. How do I do the reverse? And I prayed on it a long time.

Starting point is 00:19:29 When I first converted, my very first thought was do comedy about this. Because as a comedian, you're doing authentic stories about the craziest things that are happening in your life. And it's the craziest thing that's ever happened to me by a long shot. By a long shot. So I was like, I got to do comedy about this. but some good spiritual advisors, some people were kind of like, easy, easy. And then after a year of being Catholic, of being baptized and everything and feeling good and getting married, I was kind of like, should I do it?

Starting point is 00:20:00 And then I was the one that was like, easy, easy. And I prayed on it and I thought about it. And then after my Australia special came out, I hadn't written anything new and I really needed to start. And I was kind of like, what do I want to do? And I was praying and praying. and I just, like a week before I was supposed to perform for the new tour, I was just convicted, like, I'm going to do it, I'm just going to do it, I'm sending it, I'm just going for it, and I decided I was going to do my conversion story.

Starting point is 00:20:27 So I wrote it up, and now it's going well. Yeah. And I feel like it's really funny. Because you haven't recorded it yet. No, no, no, no, no. I'll record it in the fall. I think it'll be one of your best. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:20:36 I personally feel like it'll be my best when it's done. And it's so funny that I'm really flattered that everyone at Sikh liked it so much, because you guys saw a version that is so fresh and new. So it'll be real tightened up. Yeah. It'll be punchier and it'll be, yeah. What's it been like? First of all, have you delivered that to a secular audience?

Starting point is 00:20:56 Yes. And if you have, what has the reaction been to such a Catholic-centered stand-up? And I guess the other question is, sorry. But do people think of you as a Christian comedian? So when they're showing up, do they know what the... Okay. So I do have people who show up because they're like, we like you, we know of you from being Catholic. but they never say you're a Catholic comedian,

Starting point is 00:21:16 which is always very, that's good. That's kind of where I want to be. I want you to show up knowing, this is a Catholic who has Catholic values, so whatever happens, I'm good to go. But also, he is a comedian. So both those things are true at the same time, whereas being a Catholic comedian kind of implies

Starting point is 00:21:32 that I'm going to do Catholicism at you, which I'm not necessarily doing. But yeah, it's gone well. I have had people get mad. I've had, when I first, So the first weekend I did it, people freaked out. Tell me what that. Like they, so like a woman like, firstly, I walked some people.

Starting point is 00:21:52 Walking someone in comedy is when you do so badly that people just stand up a walk out of your show in the middle of it. But I was doing well. So when they walked, I figured like, oh, bathroom or whatever. And then afterwards, the owner of the comedy club, who's really cool guy, came up to me and he was like, yeah, you, dude, it's crazy. I really like, it's so brave that you're doing that. Like, you've had a couple walkouts. People are mad that you're talking about Jesus or the gospel or whatever. And I was like, wow, that's crazy.

Starting point is 00:22:19 And then after shows, I started to have people confront me and be like, I want my money back. No, you haven't. Yes. Yes. Tell me how that conversation goes. I want my money back. I can't believe you made me hear about Jesus. I don't pay to hear about this kind of stuff in public.

Starting point is 00:22:37 Yeah. Like, I'm always impressed with people who confront people. Like, that's actually like that they did that to you. The person who... Because if it were me, I would have went to the owner of the club and went, what is this? It didn't come here for a sermon, but that they went up to you. Right, right. And you have tattoos on your face.

Starting point is 00:22:51 The walkout people, they did what you said. They're very classy. Give me my money back. This guy's talking about Jesus too much. This lady, who looked exactly like you imagine. Just perfectly. You know, yeah, she was pretty bold. She was like, I want my money back.

Starting point is 00:23:06 And I had other people be like, I just want you to know I'm never going to listen to you again. And I think that this was stupid. Yeah, I have that all the time too. But I am sorry, but I also don't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish you well, but if you don't want to listen, like, I don't know you. Yeah. And so thank you for commenting and telling me that, but I don't care.

Starting point is 00:23:29 Right. And not in an arrogant sort of way, but just like, I don't, if I knew you, then maybe I'd care. Right. But this is the first time I'm hearing of your existence. It's so funny, too, because in the context where they're talking to me, they're really only giving me one way to react to them, which is the correct way. And I need to be aware of it. And I just go, I'm so sorry, I'll pray for you. Which is the worst thing you could say to an atheist who's mad at you. If you say, I'll want to pray for you. They say, don't. And you go, I'm going to

Starting point is 00:23:57 anyway. There's nothing. Yeah. I'm praying for you right now. I'm praying for you right now. Right now I'm praying for you. I'm spinning a photo realistic version of you in my mind and good things are happening to you and God loves you. And I blew it up with a missile. So when they say give us your money back, because presumably you don't have the ability, like, they're not paying you. Oh, no, no one's getting their money back. So what? Absolutely not. What do you say when they ask?

Starting point is 00:24:22 I say no. I just go, sorry. I don't, I don't have 20 on me. I don't know what you want for me. You go to the Fred. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not, you stayed.

Starting point is 00:24:33 Also, for those of you kind of are maybe a tiny bit lost, I, I, my stand up right now, I, I, my stand up right now, I, I have a full hour about my conversion, but it begins with a half an hour of my being an atheist. And that half an hour kind of rolls through my childhood and in a couple funny little interesting stories. And then I use those to bridge the gap between talking about my stepfather and child abuse and my, you know, in my mother and all of us having to deal with that horrible stuff. and so but for the first 30 minutes it's very like um light on that and so secular people are having i'm watching them have a great time but the last half an hour where they see like oh all of this went bad and then this is the arc as life is taking now that's when they get mad so it's so funny

Starting point is 00:25:27 for them to be like i'm mad i paid for this and it's like i saw you enjoy 30 minutes of it though like i know you'll give you off yeah yeah yeah you can have a half you can have a how many jokes you think you laughed at. Be honest. Yeah, I'm like 50 cents. No, but it's what it's so people have been mad. Like people come up. To be clear, it's not a preachy show.

Starting point is 00:25:48 I don't want people who are watching this to think that you're up there preaching it. No, not at all. Truly just a story about me. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that's why I've had tons of atheists too. And secular people also be very cool.

Starting point is 00:25:59 Yeah. And be like, dude, that was just a really culturally enriching thing for me. Like, I think it's so neat to hear you talk authentically about your religion in a way that isn't weird for me. Yeah. That's a rare thing to get to experience. And that, that, uh, that positive remark is like, I, I love that. I think about that all the time.

Starting point is 00:26:20 So is this what you're giving when you go to a club these days? Yes. Yeah, yeah. So I'm in the comedy club doing this hour everywhere I go. I did it. I've done it at a lot of places that I was like awkward to do it. Oh, wonderful. I just went to the comedy club here, Zanis last month.

Starting point is 00:26:37 One of the best in the country. And John Christ got me in. I love John. He's terrific. And then at the end, they said, we got a special guest, and it was Bargettzi got up. Nice. Why is he so? Was it you who told me about me, him or John?

Starting point is 00:26:52 Someone told me about him a couple months ago. I hadn't heard of him before because apparently I live under a rock. Why is he so funny? He's so good. He's incredible. I think I know why, but do you have a read? I think that he's funny because he is so authentic. Um, yeah, he's also friends with a lot of funny people.

Starting point is 00:27:10 He's just a funny guy. I like him. I remember he is the type of clean that I want to be. Yeah. Where people are like, he's not clean. And you go, no, he is. And they go, what? And they have to think about it for a second.

Starting point is 00:27:22 I love that. Yeah. If you were to write them down on paper and go, is this a bit? You go, no, that is the most boring thing that's ever happened to anybody. Right. And somehow they end up being terrific. Yeah, he's so good. Undestated.

Starting point is 00:27:49 And, yeah, we went and saw him live recently with the family. And, yeah, I got seats right up front. And he's doing the circular stage these days. And, you know, like, we probably would have enjoyed it more on Netflix. Or wherever he posts his comedy. I mean, we enjoyed it because it was cool to be part of this thing. Yeah. But I probably looked at his back for most of the time.

Starting point is 00:28:12 I still loved it. Yeah, the circle thing is weird. I'm not into that. I don't like... It looks good on camera, I think, because you're never seeing somebody's back. But when you're there, over half the time, I was just looking at his back. And it's a great back. Did he film?

Starting point is 00:28:24 Was it a film? No. Oh, okay. No, that's true. It wasn't. But maybe he... I don't know. I would think if I was in his shoes, I would prep using the circular stage until I was

Starting point is 00:28:32 ready to do it. Probably weird to be on a stage stage. and then film it for a circular stage. Well, what's probably happening to him is what happens to me. He just gets booked and he shows up and the stage is the stage. And you just want to make money. So you just go where your agent sends you. I've heard him talk about intentionally moving to the circular stage.

Starting point is 00:28:50 Really? Yeah, but he's also... I'm going to text him. I need to know about this. That seems wrong. The circular stage. What if it feels good? Like, the laughs kind of like blanket over you from every direction.

Starting point is 00:29:01 Yeah. I like a theater, like a smaller theater where the... Koochicks are good and the laughs kind of like roll over you. Okay. The timing is really good. Spring is a good time for a reset, isn't it? If you've been meaning to tidy up the cluttered parts of your business, now's the moment. Getting your communication system in order is one of the simplest, most effective ways to make everything run smoother.

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Starting point is 00:32:22 The heights of the ceiling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. the height of the ceiling, the like, what the room's made out of. A lot of comedians would like go into a room and if it's like underground and made of brick, you're like, let's go, dude. Litt's is a great room. The vibes too. What is it? The energy? What is the, the... You get good at going into a room and just kind of understanding how it feels in there. Do you know how there's like that intuitive sense that a space is alive and you can feel the space, you know? As a comedian, I think you work. As a comedian, I think you work that muscle so much that you kind of know how to to mesh with the space as good as possible

Starting point is 00:33:03 to get the result you want. Interesting. Because sometimes you're in a room that's not funny. Yeah. It happens. If you do theaters, that happens all the time. Malaney has one of my, John Mullaney has one of my favorite opening lines. He plays, uh, what theater? Is it in Chicago maybe? Broadway? I don't know. This beautiful, historic theater where, like, you know, people from all over the world have played. It's, you know, all these vintage artists have been there. Like, it's this beautiful, really good thing. And he gets up there and he goes, this place is so much nicer than what I'm about to do. That's excellent.

Starting point is 00:33:41 And then he references that the building is probably haunted. And it's just so perfect to be like, this building is too nice. also it's scary in here everyone gets to go oh he knows and then you just do the thing that's nice and then you just do the thing because sometimes like when I first started doing comedy I would go

Starting point is 00:34:02 up and audiences had never seen a guy like me before and I started comedy 10 years ago so it's also before a bunch of rappers were looking like me and so I would go up there and I would have to be like I also know how I look and everyone would be like oh okay good and then we could be normal together

Starting point is 00:34:19 that's good but I have had to address it. That reminds me of when Brian Regan stopped dying his hair. So you've always seen with brown hair and then one day he walks on stage with gray hair. And that's the very first thing he did. All right, well, let's address this or else you'll be thinking about it for the entire show. That's really good. Right. Yeah. I'm going to tell you my favorite opener, opening line to a stand-up routine and then Maria can cut it out if it's too offensive. Please. All right. Yeah. Let me say the whole thing. Fella comes up on stage. He looks unsure of himself a little awkward. Hi.

Starting point is 00:34:51 I found my first grey pubic hair today. In a cabab, actually. And then he goes, can I speak to the old guy, please? He knows who he is. Do you think you could take him off cabb making duties? That's a really good joke. That's a good one.

Starting point is 00:35:10 I like how English it was. Or Australia. Yeah, he was English. Yeah, yeah. You've got to do something better than, thank you so much. Yeah. Which I'm sure is what a lot of comics is.

Starting point is 00:35:20 they come out and just say, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah. Now, I'm not funny or a comedian, but what I've been doing lately when I come out because of everything that blew up after I joined the Daily Wire and everyone got really upset. Everyone's excited at you.

Starting point is 00:35:30 It's, I'll come out and everyone claps, and I go, thank you. Man, you guys are so much nicer than Twitter. And everyone gets that joke. Yeah, every time I see you, you're like, I'm getting attacked. You're just always under attack. Like, people are so mad at you all the time.

Starting point is 00:35:47 What's funny? Is it exhausting or do you kind of tune it out? Oh, I didn't bother me. It didn't. When I joined here, it didn't bother me because it was so loud. It's funny. I've said this before. But if two people were upset with me, you have this feeling that you can somehow make it better.

Starting point is 00:36:01 But when you trend on Twitter, you're like, all right, well, whatever. I don't get it. Yeah, what can I have made a possibly do to fix this? That's, that I prayed about that I didn't sell out on. Making more money isn't selling out on, right? Yeah, what is selling out. Selling out is when you compromise what you believe in for the sake of money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:18 So, and then, no, what was I going to say, oh, yeah, what's funny, there was, I just wrote a article the other day. It was called why Ted Cruz is wrong about Christian Zionism. And, but what's funny is so you've got the Catholics who are furious with you. Not most art, but just loud. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But then you've also got everyone on Daily Wire who's like, why are there so many Catholics?

Starting point is 00:36:40 Yes, yeah, yeah. They're furious. Dude, I had someone, there's like this trending thing. Someone was tagging me in videos saying that was a part of a consent. a Catholic conspiracy to take over media or something. And I was like, we wish. We're trying. I know right.

Starting point is 00:36:58 I know you've heard organized religion and think we know how to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't. Dude, yeah, it's so funny. We've all accused, I'm always saying, be the Jesuit people think you are, you know, like, they think you, like, control. You're insane. Like, the Jesuits control America.

Starting point is 00:37:16 God, they secret organizations. Like, you probably get this, though, when you're in person. Like, I was at Penn State a while back, given a talk. And it was good for me to get out because you realize that, oh, people aren't trolls. Like, when you're just online, you think everyone is a troll. Like, everyone's saying something snarky and sardonic. And you meet people. Like, I was waiting for everyone to be like that.

Starting point is 00:37:39 Yeah. Everyone was so beautiful and pleasant and kind and gracious. I'm like waiting for the other foot to drop, you know? Hey, thank you so much. I'm like, yeah, yeah, what are you about to say? Right. And that never, oh, you're welcome. Every meet and greet, I feel like that.

Starting point is 00:37:54 Though, to be fair, every once in a while, I do get a real life person who is confrontational, you know, so. Or I'll get like a random person on the street who knows me for my previous life and they'll see me. And instead of being like, oh my gosh, Shane, I used to watch your comedy. They'll, like, you know, they'll swear at me or curse me or whatever. say something mean to me and then just keep it moving and I'm like wow I okay I'm just absorbing street a drive-by insult I guess like I'm just keep it moving but it's crazy that people are upset with you during your latest special because some of what you talk about in the beginning is about the abuse I don't want to disclose what you don't want to disclose but the abuse you received as a as a child yeah yeah and then they still come up and get upset it's insane it's insane to be like thank you for sharing that very personal story about how you over overcame torture. Anyway, you are the worst. You're like, what?

Starting point is 00:38:49 I didn't do anything. I'm not even, I'm not even, there was no call to action. I think there's power in the name of Jesus Christ. And when it's audited, something changes in the atmosphere. And one million percent. It's the same, it's the, it's the reason that so many people are so comfortable being agnostic. And when you talk to them privately, you, you get the sense. I don't know if you ever talk to a lot of agnostic people.

Starting point is 00:39:14 I do quite a bit these days. And I always get the sense that they like, they're very open to Jesus and like, yeah, Jesus is God for sure. Like, he's the guy. This is, I'm agnostic and Jesus is agnosed. You know, like that's in their head. But then if you try to have like a more public conversation, they kind of know, I got to distance myself.

Starting point is 00:39:34 So I can be, I can be religious in the way that is socially acceptable. Spiritual, not religious. Spiritual not religious. But we are, again, Catholicism, we're having a moment. Christianity's having a moment, and Catholicism is kind of like, we're in the front carrying the flag. All right, well, let me ask you, why is it then that it seems like people are converting in droves to orthodoxy and Catholicism in particular and are abandoning Protestantism? What is it that's taken place that's led to this?

Starting point is 00:40:04 Because back in 2008, during the beginning or height of the new atheism craze, this seemed unthinkable. Unthinkable. So that's interesting. And then what's also interesting is you just have to be like live here long enough like you and I have to realize how things flip flop, right? So within 10 minutes from now, there's going to be a new atheist movement. Yeah, possibly. And I think that's why it's really important because even right now it seems like a lot of apologists, people like, we don't need your apologetics. We believe in Jesus, like, you know.

Starting point is 00:40:36 But we desperately need very well thought out apologetics for when the next swing happens. my take. But why do you, yeah, I'm with you there. John Wick style, like, let's bury all the guns, cement, and then an apology comes out when the new atheist show up, breaks them out and get some Jimmy's 81. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jimmy's Barrett 50 Cowell. He names the hammer of St. Michael, which is actually the name of my sniper rifle, but that's okay. Yeah, it's very, it's, I think that's a good point. I think it's a good point. I also think it is going to swing, But I also think the more I read about just history in general, there are times where the Overton window shifts and people kind of settle into cultural norms with religion for a couple hundred years or a hundred years or 50 years. And then people sort of start to ask questions and get restless and then they move, you know.

Starting point is 00:41:33 And so I think that there's a real world chance that as the Overton window shifts and everyone is sort of, we were all browbeat into being. like spirituality is not true. Ghosts aren't real. This and that. You don't feel an unseen love. It's all material. This is a material world we live in and God isn't real. But like even dumb people, and I say this with a lot of love on my heart, like even people who who don't think about big questions, you intuit spirit, the spiritual realm. Like you just intuit evil. You just know. Like we all just know. And so we were all trying to convince ourselves like, no, it's all material. It's all material. And then setting aside like that knowledge. And now that we've all kind of picked it back up and been like, get out of here. I know what I know. And now I'm going to figure out what I know via the Catholic

Starting point is 00:42:27 church, you know. And so I feel like that moment could last for quite a while. I think we might be headed towards something great that lasts for maybe the rest of our adult lives. I think that's true. But just like people jumped on the new atheist bandwagon to seem cool. They did. Then it's like there's obviously an equivalent here. So I've always said, and I'll continue to say, that it's like my life has to be more about my own repentance and the love of those around me than being sneering online.

Starting point is 00:42:58 Yeah. Because Trent Horn was sitting where you are recently. We were having this discussion and he said that the internet appeals to the seven deadly sins. Like you think of pride, last envy, anger. That's what sells on the internet. Dude, anger, lust and pride. So if you live on the internet as a Christian, you're not going to survive unless you somehow start justifying why it's okay to start using the F word against your opponents and things like that. And we see that already.

Starting point is 00:43:21 And anyway, okay. So my initial question was why, what is it do you think? Because you're really insightful into these matters, I think, about orthodoxy and Catholicism and more apostolic kinds of Christianity. Like, what is it about that it seems like people are flocking to? I, so I, every time I come on the show, since the first time I've told you about that, that little file on my phone, the Crisis King, I screenshot, anytime someone tells me they convert it or whatever, I screenshot it and I put it in that, that folder is huge now. That's beautiful. Like 500 plus. Wow, what a cool idea. Yeah, yeah. And so anytime I'm like, I never go in there and read them because I just don't like to like, oh, you help me and I'm like, you know, like I hate that. I can't. Like you said, it's very difficult to accept a compliment or. whatever. But just to look and know it's there and be like, let's go, we're doing something

Starting point is 00:44:11 real. Something is happening. Yeah. You know, and a lot of the people who convert from Protestantism, a lot of what they tell me is that they, um, so, so, so many of them convert because of Protestantism's opposition to Catholicism. So what they kind of find is, they're online and Catholics are calling out Protestants and Protestants are calling out Catholics. It's the internet. We're doing battle. Gavin Orland versus Trent Orr. Yep. You know, okay, fair enough.

Starting point is 00:44:42 But then they go into real life. And what they find in real life is that the Protestants are still, did you hear what the Catholics are doing? My preacher did a whole sermon about how Catholics are evil. And then they check out the Catholic Mass. And it's Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I see. And they're kind of like, interesting.

Starting point is 00:45:03 Yeah. And the more, and that is a very, common story. I'm not, so many people have told me they've converted from people being evil towards the church. So they're kind of like, it's that thing like when I first started to convert where I was like, oh, interesting that all the Satanists are in opposition to the Catholics and genuinely don't care what Baptists do. So if a person who literally is willing to like cut their nose off for magic thinks the Catholic Church has power. Is that a thing? Yeah. Please tell me. Tell me about that. It's a real thing that happened. Someone has cut their nose off? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're saying yeah, yeah,

Starting point is 00:45:48 like everybody knows this. People self-mutilate for, for magic all the time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Feel free to to. It's horrible. So that's, I mean, that's, you know, there's, you know, magic, a lot of people, magic is either powered by sex or violence. Okay. Those of that's kind of the whole deal with it. And so, yeah, there are people who self-mutilate in order to make things happen, I guess, is what you should say. But I know someone who cut off their nose, like surgically, like had it removed by like a, not a tattoo artist, but like a guy who's not qualified. This is what I want to say. As opposed to the qualified. Hey, you know how you, have you ever seen those dudes who are like, those freak weirdos with all the tattoos and they look like a lizard?

Starting point is 00:46:34 Yeah. That's one step past me where I'm like. Like, what are we doing here? But, you know, so that he had that. Like, he was like a lizard nose almost. But he did it for... Was he an insane? For the purposes of black magic.

Starting point is 00:46:46 No. No. This is just a person who wants power and has access to everything they want and doesn't care about their physical... They think it's cool. If only we would be as committed to our fasting and praying. Right. And self-discipline as this fella is for his black magic.

Starting point is 00:47:02 Well, there is a slight difference. as a person who practiced these evil things and now does the good things, it's so, so, so, so, so much easier to do the evil things. Got your nose off? Yeah. One and done. Explain to me.

Starting point is 00:47:20 Would you mind telling me a bit about your history with this? Or is that... Yeah, we could talk about it. So I was involved, like, we talked about it briefly when we talked about my conversion. I don't remember that talking about. Very small, or maybe it was something, but so...

Starting point is 00:47:31 I remember us talking about your conversion, the Blessed Mother. Right, right. Yeah. We were kind of on the podcast. positivity stuff. So when I was an atheist and I was getting involved in leftist politics and things, socialist rival association, all these other things, I found a political group that was protesting like the Ten Commandments and courtrooms and prayer and all these other things in school.

Starting point is 00:47:53 And it was the temple of Satan. So they're like the fake Satanists. They're like the political activist Satanist, but they're run by a guy named Lucien Graves who has like wighted out. eyes and looks. Anyway, he's a real Satanist. He's an actual for real Satanist that just says he's a fake Satanist that runs a political organization. Right? How do you know he's a real Satanus? Because he's doing real magic and all the people around him are doing real

Starting point is 00:48:18 magic and they're doing actual Satanist stuff, you know? And so yeah, I got involved with these people and then you think like, oh, it's just like a heavy metal cool thing. Like you guys have six six six tattoos and you listen to Metallica. You know? And you're like, yeah, and

Starting point is 00:48:34 all these hot goth girls are here. and we're not going to let the Christians put the Ten Commandments in courtroom, separation of church and state. And the next thing you know, you're hanging out with real life witches doing tarot cards and magic. And you're reading the, you know, I'm not even going to say the book names. But, you know, you're reading these evil books and you're, and you're like, oh, I'm actually doing it.

Starting point is 00:49:00 It would be the equivalent of saying, like, yeah, I'm going to get involved in an organization to help a political organization, it's Catholic. I'm not Catholic, but I've been praying the rosary every day and I go to Mass all the time. And like sometimes I cry when I'm in adoration. And I pray a lot. And it makes me feel good, but it's mostly just about the politics. You'd be like, you sound like you're doing Christianity, my guy.

Starting point is 00:49:26 That's the reverse. And is that how you slid into the magic stuff? That's how I slid in. Yeah, through thinking it was political activism that was just trolling and very funny. And then it just turned out to be real. And of course, as I was having this moment where I was becoming more agnostic,

Starting point is 00:49:43 I was open to the idea of magic or ritual or power. And so that kind of played into me believing in God and just being open to it. How did you go from thinking this was just trolling to thinking that you said it was real? What happened with you that you? So I began to do it and it began to work. Like things I was, I was doing it for were working in ways that were like, like, kind of incredible.

Starting point is 00:50:19 Feels more than a coincidence? Yeah. Even more than that. Yeah. More than a coincidence. And then, then as I began to discern Christianity and my, my grandfather passed away. And this is like a deeper level to the story that isn't usually told just because it's so intense and kind of derails from the fact that Christ saved me. You know, people get really fixated if you're like, I did sex magic. I did black magic for a little bit. People are like enough about Jesus, tell me about the occult. Because it's just so fascinating to us, right? But anyway, I was doing that. And I like when I began to discern like, oh, going to church.

Starting point is 00:51:03 all this other stuff. I did have really wild experiences with like fear and sort of like negative spirits. I've, uh, one example is I, like distinctly remember I was in my apartment and I was in the bathroom and it was kind of like the evening and I was by myself in my apartment. And I had just used the bathroom and I stood up and I just got this like overwhelming dread feeling that there was someone or something on the other side of the door waiting for me to. open it. And if you ever had like that like a spooky like turn off the light and run to your bed feeling, but like that real adult spiritual warfare version where you're like, where you actually stop and you like say a prayer, you say Jesus name out loud like I know that something evil is

Starting point is 00:51:49 near me right now. I didn't know it at the time, but that's how I felt. It was just so terrifying. Just small experiences like that kind of made me go, hmm, maybe I'm messing around with evil. Yeah. Maybe I'm like inviting something into my life. And truly thank God for my mom, too, who was even as not a super religious person and a person who was kind of letting me find my way, when I was doing weird stuff like that, she was always like, don't mess with that stuff. Never touch a weed. Don't do anything to do with magic or the devil or anything like that. And so she always kind of like kept me what I would say, like vigilant, just paying attention a little bit. Like, huh, well, she seems to think this is real.

Starting point is 00:52:31 So maybe I'll just watch out. But yeah, I mean, it was a terrifying, dark, embarrassing. I would say it's more embarrassing than anything for me now. But yeah, it was a weird time of my life. And I was involved in a bunch of stuff that's like really dark. And of course, the way God works is so incredible because now I look back at that and it strengthens my faith. You know? But at the time, I was up to stupid, embarrassing, disgusting things.

Starting point is 00:53:00 Yeah. No, I see you a point about when you start bringing in things, like topics that appeal to people's lower passions. Right. You use the word sex magic. I will never ask you what that means. 100%. But I feel like I can ask you about why someone would cut their nose off and no one would be like, oh, I need to do that. So what is?

Starting point is 00:53:19 Yeah, yeah. So this got, tell me about why someone would cut their nose off for magic and what the point is there. It's about sacrifice. It's about giving up something to get something else. And so that's like the whole concept. behind all of it, really. It's giving something to get something else. It's a mockery of the sacrifice to God. Yeah. So, off a bread of wine. It's all a mockery. So it's all like the reverse, you know. It's the same like the witching hour is 3333. It's a mockery of the Trinity, all these things.

Starting point is 00:53:50 And so, yeah, so much of it. It is funny, too, to to now be Catholic and look back in like, as you grow in your Catholicness, at least as an adult convert, you're in the mass and you go, oh, that line from the mass is in the Bible. Oh, this line from this is over here. Like you're reading the New Testament for the first time and you're like, they say that in mass. Cool. You know, you're like reading it. You're kind of deepening like, oh, it's all Catholicism. And then that is kind of my looking back at evil, like black magic. I'm like, oh, it's all, you're just doing reverse Catholicism. You guys are obsessed with us, you sick freaks, you know, Like interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it's all the reversal of everything we do. Yeah. And I understand,

Starting point is 00:54:31 you know, there's a lot of shows. Like, I think one of my most popular shows is with an exorcist. It's had a few million, three million views or something like that. So I understand that there is a desire to talk about this stuff and put up this content because it does well. And I also understand the argument that, well, people shouldn't be attracted to these things. It's not so healthy. I get that. I think that's right. But I also think just like what you said about how your former life strengthens your current faith, it can also be the case. It can also be the case. that hearing about the reality of some of these darker issues can help someone go, oh, gosh, I better wake up and pay attention.

Starting point is 00:55:02 Right. I've got to stop praying the same Michael prayer because this isn't a joke, you know? People are, I find, like, the people who are the most into horror movies are the most afraid, right? They, you want to keep it close to you so you can control it. So, like, you have this deep-seated, real fear of this thing,

Starting point is 00:55:19 and so you kind of, like, keep it close to you and make it into art or sort of as an interest or whatever, and that that's like why women love true crime so much. Thank you. Would you explain this to me? Because I've noticed this for years, well, months. But I don't know why it's women. Women adore true crime.

Starting point is 00:55:36 And I just think that it's because it's a reality for them. As a man, I don't walk around thinking, I'm going to get snatched up and murdered. When I hear about Ted Bundy, I think about what a crazy guy he is compared to me. As a woman, when you hear about Ted Bundy, you think, would he have got me? that we're just having a totally different experience interfacing with the information. Like, women are a different character in that story. They live in a much scarier world.

Starting point is 00:56:07 So I think that I actually like... I don't think any genre is so filled with trash as horror. Let me begin by stating that. Yes, yes. I also don't think that horror is intrinsically evil. And I think one of the reasons it's good to read scary fairy tales to your children, like Hansel and Gretel, which might be one of the most terrifying horror stories ever written. Really gnarly.

Starting point is 00:56:26 It is because it teaches children. I don't know if it teaches is the right word, but like we live in a scary world and you will face a witch who wants to eat children. Yes. You will face it. And so I, so if for that sense, I think it's like our way of kind of sort of how you see animals play fight. It's like their way of like, I'm going to have to be ready for this one day. Yeah. I feel like because we're intellectual creatures, we do that on an intellectual way.

Starting point is 00:56:50 And that's often called horror, maybe true crime. So do you think that one of the reasons women like. true crime is to try to explore that fearful possibility and be prepared for it if it should ever eventuate. We prepare for death differently than women. We have a different relationship with it. We fantasize about it. I never met a guy in my life that doesn't have a last stand fantasy that isn't like, yeah, I'll be the last guy. You know what I mean? Like our relationship with death, Like we, even the most cowardly guy probably romanticizes dying with a sword in his hand. We, we naturally are like, give it to me.

Starting point is 00:57:31 I'm not afraid I want it. Yeah, yeah. We like, we yearn for danger. I'm afraid that I'll be afraid, but I'd like not to be. Yes, yes. As a man, you want to conquer that. You want to bring it close. That's why we love danger.

Starting point is 00:57:44 We love to, like, we want it. I want to go fast. I want to be high up. I want to fight. I want, you know, like, I need to. conflict because I want to be close to it. Women aren't close to death in that way. They're close in a different way. And so the way they express themselves, this is my personal theory, is by being close to these things, holding these stories close and learning from them. And I also feel like it

Starting point is 00:58:08 probably is almost like a preparation thing. Like the same way like I'm watching like YouTube videos about how to to make a deadfall trap that I'll never need in case I'm lost in the woods. And women are like, all right, so if a guy shows up and asked me, you know, like there shows me all of his board games in his closet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Escape the house immediately. Alarm, alarm. So that's so, what if I, what if that was her thing? She was like, it's not that he was a dork. I just thought he I thought he was a killer. Who has that many World War II games? Did I tell you how many they were? There was an inordinate amount. That's my American accent. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty good. Yeah, so, fair enough. Yeah, I just think women are closer to it.

Starting point is 00:58:51 And then just the same way, Mementa Mori is so fascinating. I love Memento Mori. Like, I love goth stuff. Like, me and my wife, when we move, we're making, like, a little kneeler thing with a prayer station. And of course, it's, like, super, it's going to be, like, super heavy metal and goth looking and awesome. Very Memento Mori. But, like, we want to be close to death. We want to feel close to these macab things or scary things.

Starting point is 00:59:14 Yeah. There's just something about it. I mean, think about the outside of traditional churches with their, uh, the macab-looking statues on the outsides. Right. The demon-looking things that. Yeah, yeah. Gargoyles.

Starting point is 00:59:27 Gargoyles. That's what I was reaching for. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's really interesting. I think one, I don't know, we talked, so you said, going back to my question about why are Protestants becoming Catholic. And you say what often happens is people will complain about Catholicism.

Starting point is 00:59:42 And then the individual experiences Catholicism and doesn't find it to be the caricature. Yes. Right. And I don't think those Protestants are wrong. by the way, well, I think they're wrong to accuse Catholicism of bad things. I wouldn't call them anti-Catholic. Here's why. I think if Catholicism is false, like you are right to point that out. And so I think it's important to distinguish between somebody who's pointing out what they believe to be wrong about a religion and then to say they're anti-Catholic. I think those are different

Starting point is 01:00:09 things. I'm not sure where I would draw that line. Yeah. Because I mean, a lot of people complain about Mormonism. And it's not like, well, for that reason, people are flooding into Mormonism. And true. True. There is some, there's a mystique. There's something going on with the Catholic Church. I also think that... Sorry, one more thought. It's always been the case, or at least it has been for the last 50 years, perhaps, that people have complained about Catholicism in regards to what she teaches about sexuality and things like that. Yeah. And I don't know how many people were in floods, encountering Catholics and going, it's not like that, and then joining Catholicism. Right. I think that there's, the situation has two more variables. I'm going to lose these in my head, but we're going to try. The first variable being, so they get that experience. And then that experience is also, they're hearing a lot of old stereotypes about Catholics that every Protestant in America is mad about.

Starting point is 01:01:00 Those stereotypes are patently false. So when they go, they're all worshipping Mary. And then you look into it, you go, that seems reasonable. I don't think they're worshipping here at all. You know, and now that the, now that like, you could just go on chat GPT or whatever and be like, What do Catholics believe? And then it's like, this is literally the catechism. And they read it and they go, oh, okay.

Starting point is 01:01:23 Well, so you lied to me about this? And then their pastor maybe doubles down. Maybe that sends you to the church. Maybe he doesn't. And now you're open to, you know. Yeah. So you can't lie about us because you're just going to send people to us because we're not afraid to give the info. So maybe you've got like two, sorry, sorry, you said two pillars.

Starting point is 01:01:43 I didn't mean to drop you. That was the first. You continue your thought. I'm going to try and remember what the second pillar was. Well, I just think that you've either got Protestants who are like Catholics aren't Christian. Yeah. And then on the other side, it seems like this growing, growing softening towards Catholicism, where you'll hear pastors say something like, no, I'm not saying that are Christians. I'm not saying they can't be saved. And, you know, they were the first Christians and they gave us the Bible anyway. And so we appreciate that. And you're like, okay, well, hang on. If I'm, can I just join them then? Because they seem really cool. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't, well, if you want to join them, I guess you could and still be a Christian. Yeah. I've had a lot of people say, that James White has led them to Catholicism.

Starting point is 01:02:18 I've heard that. A lot of people say that to me. I've not had anyone say it directly to me. The other situation, there's so much information readily available. Like we were saying, you could just Google it. Like truthfully, you can chat GPT, whatever, Catholic answers. It's all there. Pints.

Starting point is 01:02:36 I mean, you could just look it up. And it used to be that you couldn't. The information wasn't there. And so the Catholic Church, to our great credit, one of the very few like, hey, we've been nailing this, not even close to doing bad the whole time, is at every point where like this is the info, come at us. Uh-huh. Come at us.

Starting point is 01:02:57 Whereas when I was learning about Protestantism as a kid and learning about Jesus for the first time, there were a lot of questions that were like, we don't know. Or we just do it this way. Don't worry about it. Where did the Bible come from? Don't worry about it. Why can't, you know, what's the teaching on? being gay or contraception or this or that.

Starting point is 01:03:18 And a lot of the Protestants I spoke to as a kid were just kind of like, it's just important to have a relationship with Jesus. Yeah. That turned me off as a kid where I was just like, oh, okay. So there's like no rules. You just do this what? So what are you doing? And like, if you don't understand, you're just kind of like,

Starting point is 01:03:34 well, you seem wishy-washy, I'm out. So I'll just be a good person then. I guess I don't have to worry about it. Almost what you're saying about the like, well, if someone goes, well, don't, you don't have to be religious. As long as you're good, you'll go to heaven. And you go, okay, I'll just do that.

Starting point is 01:03:48 Yes. Thanks. Thanks. I'll be over here being nothing. Yeah. So, you know, starting something new is, well, at least can be terrifying. I remember when I launched this show 10 years ago now, I had had almost no clue what I was doing. I kept thinking, what if nobody listens?

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Starting point is 01:05:56 the pro-life movement, one cup of coffee at a time. Now, you might be thinking, why are they called seven weeks coffee, Matt? Good question. Because at seven weeks, a baby is the size of a coffee bean. And it's the same time, a heartbeat is clearly detected on an ultrasound. They've built their business around saving lives by donating 10% of every sale to pregnancy centers and pro-life organizations nationwide. They've now raised over one and a half million dollars and saved thousands of lives. Now, let's talk about the coffee because I care about what I'm fueling my body with. Okay, it's mold-free, pesticide-free, shade-grown and low acid, and it's organically farmed. It truly checks all the boxes. Now, when I first heard about seven weeks coffee, I thought, okay, I'm open

Starting point is 01:06:42 to trying it, but I'm not going to keep buying coffee just because it has a great cause if the coffee's not excellent. You know, hand to my heart, it is actually excellent and we really love it in the frad household. So, go to 7weekscoffee.com and save 15% forever when you subscribe. Plus get a free gift with your order and exclusively for my listeners use code pints for an extra 10% off your first order. That's a 25% total savings on your first order plus a free gift. Use code pints at checkout. I also think we live in an ugly time and many of us feel cultureless and are embarrassed about the fact that we have no culture.

Starting point is 01:07:23 There's this desperate desire to attach myself to the Irish or the English or the French or wherever I may have come from, right, to have things passed down to me that we kind of cut off. It was like, no, screw that, screw the man, screw the system. Like I am free. And then we're like, now there's no soil and I'm shriveling up. And so I think that's another reason why people look at orthodoxy and Catholicism go, okay, this is a old, beautiful story. I want to plant myself in that garden.

Starting point is 01:07:50 I don't want to plant, and I'm not accusing old Protestants of this, because there are obviously, you can go to some Anglican churches that might look more beautiful and be objectively more beautiful and traditional in one sense, in one sense than your local parish. Like, that's possible. And to be clear, one of my most spiritual moments I've ever felt in my life was just in a hotel room. so you don't need a chino so even to that credit i think there are protestants in the the thing that as catholics where we're like in your warehouse with your fog machines and we're like being rude right but in a warehouse with a fog machine kind of cool you can you can encounter the lord in a way that would affect your life and be beautiful and real and good and whole and it's so important to acknowledge that too as much as i tend to fall into the trap of being like a yeah that's

Starting point is 01:08:40 really helpful to say that. If you were, if you, if you, if you had a beautiful cathedral with hand paintings like me, you know, but like no, actually, I've encountered the Lord on a run and began to weep uncontrollably and growth and had grown spiritually random, you know, so like I don't, yeah, they're totally incompletely capable. Yeah, I think a good strategy for Catholics at this point in history is to say to our Protestant friends or is to say yes and there's more. So I'm with you 100% and we can even learn from you in this regard. What you're saying, beautiful. There's more here, as opposed to making fun of people. As much as the internet wants us to do that. Yeah. I have an ecumenical heart and sometimes I find that Catholics on the internet are like, when you, you're being too nice or whatever and I'm like,

Starting point is 01:09:27 no, I'm not actually. Don't they call it the cage stage? Have you heard that? The cage stage of a conversion? I don't even know what that means. The cage stage. I don't, honestly, I wish I had my phone I would look up what cage stage means. Just imagining Bonesaw from the Spider-Man movie. Here's the point. I got you in here for three minutes, brother, in the cage. What I'm talking about, though, I guess, is just like the off-the-charts levels of enthusiasm that one experiences after converting.

Starting point is 01:09:57 And they get sarcastic and angry and, like, belligerent. And then that all kind of sometimes calms down. Yeah. I've had people on my show who've reached out to me and went, dude, I wish I could come on this show now instead of a year or two ago. It would have been so different. He's like, I just came in. I was.

Starting point is 01:10:12 Yeah. That's good, though. I think it's good. It's so funny. Now I'm like thinking back like, did I do that? I know for sure I felt it. When you're first converting, it's like. Yeah, but I'm going to say something that might sound strange because obviously you're a very manly guy.

Starting point is 01:10:31 But you also have a beautiful sensitive heart. Like you're open to other people and their pain. and their experiences. And that's one of the most attractive things about you. And it's probably why you're so good as a stand-up. So I don't think you would naturally be a sort of condescending triumphalist. No. I can be though.

Starting point is 01:10:47 I can be so mean. That I'm like very capable. I know. Unfortunately, I'm mean to my wife sometimes. Which is the person you would be mean to because you live together and you're married. Yeah. But I've made your wife and she's super sweet.

Starting point is 01:11:00 Oh, dude. I once had my friend father, Jason. I was like upset with Cameron, my wife about. something he's like okay well you better go in there and be kind to her because she's amazing and if she tells me you're not i'm gonna kick your ass that's so good that's the kind of friend you want yeah that's the kind of friend you want that's so good i know i i had a priest's friend of mine um i i did i made confession with him and uh which is always awkward do you confess are your confesses your friends sometimes i feel like i've committed a grave sin and i'm i'll go to whoever will take me

Starting point is 01:11:31 and so sometimes yeah that does involve yeah yeah yeah and he told me He told me to shut the F up and in the middle of it. And I don't know that he knew it was me necessarily because I was just in the thing. And he was like, listen to me. I can tell it. And he said exactly what I needed to. It was so good.

Starting point is 01:11:51 But he was like, it's your job to protect your wife and be there for her and like really fired me up. I like left the room being like, dude, I'm gonna go be the best husband I've ever been. That's nice. It's good. I once went to confession and my wife was, has been for years now, dealt with a lot of autoimmune debilitating things. And depending on the

Starting point is 01:12:11 day, you can't tell. Like, so no, she looks great, but often she's sick. And I was complaining. I was complaining. I went to confession to confess that I wasn't patient with her and that this has been really wearing me down. This is a confession I'm familiar with. Well, you say something similar? Yeah. Yeah. So my priest said to me, well, look, you said in good times and bad and sickness and health. And then he said this, guess what, buddy? I'm like, oh, I love this. Now it's bad and now it's sick. And what are you going to do?

Starting point is 01:12:41 I'm like, thank gosh, this is what I needed. Yeah. Really needed. It is important sometimes. This takes me to the third reason the church is growing so much right now. Because we as people, especially as like, well, I was going to say American. You are an American, but as an American. Technically, no, I wouldn't say I am American.

Starting point is 01:13:03 Australian who has American citizenship. Well, Australians are upside down Americans. Okay. You guys have the heart of Americans. You're the only other Anglo culture with cowboys. And, well, no, Spanish people are cowboys. We, we would like, please, please dominate us with your COVID rhetoric. So I don't know if you want to. Yeah, that was, you guys fell off a little bit. That's okay. But we get back on. But you can get back on. You still have some of the best surfers. Your guys are great. I love Australians. But in any case, uh, I do feel like you guys have the spirit of I actually feel like Mexico, Australia, Spain, and America are like weirdly together in like this, maybe even Japan too.

Starting point is 01:13:44 They all have the spirit of a cowboy in them. Anyway, this is a theory. Mongolians also are cowboys. So I've pointed to the camera, Mongolians are cowboys too. Anyway, these are all personal theories Shane has. This is like me talking to my brothers being like, no, Mongolians are cowboys. Like, um, but the people, the third reason. The third reason, people want to be asked of.

Starting point is 01:14:03 people want to be asked of and protestantism for every beautiful thing it's done and all the great things it's doing and all the wonderful people in it it has kind of stopped asking people to do difficult things and whereas the church never stopped like and to our detriment at times but right now like you know protestants they don't have a lot of solid teachings on IVF or adoption or even gay marriage in some cases or what traditional marriage is or this or that or whatever or even like the promiscuity

Starting point is 01:14:44 their teaching on promiscuity is kind of like well just try you know whereas the church is like if you get married it's forever we're not going to let you get divorced you know and you're like also you can't touch yourself also you're welcome dude the amount every time

Starting point is 01:15:00 I get hired by a Protestant church and I go perform for them Firstly, they're amazing and I love them. And if you're listening to this and you're one of the people who have had me out to your community, dude, I've had like some like really beautiful experiences where I'm like, dang, this is great. But they like, I lost my train of thought because I'm thinking about the last guy. Touch yourself. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:21 They'll be like, is that real? Do you really like, you guys don't masturbate? The Protestant sauce is? Never. And they're like, what? And I'm like, it's cheating on my wife. And they'll be like, really? Hang on.

Starting point is 01:15:32 You're saying, no. to be very clear. Not all Protestants think this. No, no, no, no. But you're saying Protestants have said this. I've had several groups of evangelicals who I've been close to and spent time with that I respect and love

Starting point is 01:15:42 and think so many wonderful things. They just, they don't look at the teachings that way. They're like, really? They're kind of like secular people. Like, how do you not do it though? And I'm like, well, you just don't. You just kind of stop and you pray about it. And then the more you stop, the more you stop.

Starting point is 01:15:59 And that's kind of how that works. And they're like, what? And I'm like, yeah, it's a, to look at pornography and they're like, really? Yes. You know, like it's kind of wild. So I think that, you know, young people especially are like, okay, you guys want me to do something difficult. And then the way we interact with the difficultness also helps because a lot of people have an idea about how Christian morality exists that they got from a very bad Protestant education. I don't think that's Protestantism's fault. I think that's secular America's fault because we

Starting point is 01:16:37 sort of Hollywoodized what people think Christianity is. So for instance, when I converted and I began to live my life, I wasn't doing, I'm still not perfect. Obviously, I'll never be perfect, but I was sinning or I would mess up or do things. And then people would be like, you're a hypocrite. You're a hypocrite. Oh, look at this Christian over here. Definitely not doing what he's supposed to do. And you're kind of like, hold, but hold on a second. I thought, you also hate Catholic guilt. So do you think I'm a Christian hypocrite or are you against Catholic guilt? Because if I sin and I'm not guilty about it because I know I'm saved and I'm just trying

Starting point is 01:17:15 to be as good as I can be, shouldn't you support that? But if I'm guilty about it, you also think that's an evil thing the church is making me do. So which one do you want me to do? Do you want me to be the Christian who sins and is secure and doesn't crash out over it and doesn't feel guilty and just continues, or do you want me to admire myself in guilt? And they don't have an answer. That is fascinating. It turns out that they just don't like you because you're Christian. Uh-huh. But the way they view morality and Christian morality is this zero-sum game where like either you're guilty over your sins and the church is evil for making you feel guilty and Catholic guilt is

Starting point is 01:17:53 disgusting. People aren't inherently bad. Or you're a Christian who makes mistakes and does bad things or has a scandal or whatever and everyone comes out christian hypocrites here are the christians doing all the sinning doing everything they say they don't do and it's like do you want me to feel guilty or not how do you i'm a person just like you yeah you know any moral in any moral uh what is the saying uh not quantity any any uh any moral standard makes a hypocrite of a man Uh-huh. Yeah. So if your moral standard doesn't make you a hypocrite often, really bad news about your moral standard. Yeah, that's interesting. I wanted to ask you, because you've been married, what, a year, two? Yeah, a year. Have you realized your wife isn't God yet? It took me a while. I, yeah, I knew pretty quick. She let me know. I knew I was like, would God punch me in the back of the head while I was right? No, no. Okay. But I, yeah. In a way, I think, you know, when you're young, and this is, this is,

Starting point is 01:18:56 And you know, you and I are roughly the same age, I think. But yeah, I think when you're when you're very young, you cannot know that your wife or husband won't fulfill all your expectations and all of your deepest longings. You know it theoretically. Right. I could talk about it eloquently, but you don't actually know it. Yeah, you have to like experience it. You have to like realize that you don't know. And one of the ways you begin to realize that you didn't know it to begin with is when you start realizing that you're frustrated at her.

Starting point is 01:19:26 or him for not actually meeting the things you thought they were supposed to meet. Yeah. And that they weren't just another broken sinner like you who your role was to lead them to heaven not to satisfy your every desire. Anyway, how's that gone? It's going. I'm very lucky in that I converted late in life and I got married late in life. So I'm sort of like, you know, in my late 30s, like very aware.

Starting point is 01:19:49 I remember having a very distinct moment in my maybe I was 20, late 20s, early 30s. and I visited a friend of mine who's been married since he was a teenager. And him and his wife, they're great. They're beautiful. They've been married for like 20-something years. They were having, I came over to his house. We're going to go ride motorcycles or something. He was having an argument that at the time I thought was like, oh, so kill each other, I guess.

Starting point is 01:20:12 Or like marriage over. Like I was genuine. I had a real anxiety hearing them talk to each other. And then he was like, you know what? I'm probably sorry about it. He said something to her, like a kind of a, it. apology almost. And then he was like, we'll just talk when I'm back. It's all going to be okay. And she was like, yeah, it's going to be fine. And then like, we went to the garage and we're

Starting point is 01:20:33 getting ready to go. And I was like, dang, dude, like getting ready to have this really heavy. Yeah. Like, I'm so sorry. That's happening. And he's like, it's all good. I love her. I'll never leave her. Like, he just said something like so, like, I'm a married, I've been married for 19 years. It's fine. And like, like, it didn't affect his mental health at all. He was perfectly fine. And when we came back, him and his wife really were like, yeah, well, figure it out. And they were like normal to each other. But I remember thinking at the time like, this is a world destroying argument. You're, you're clearly so genuinely for real angry at your wife. I like, it gave me like fear in my heart. And then he was like, oh, yeah, we're married.

Starting point is 01:21:11 It's fine. And like, he just, the confidence with which he was married, like, blew my mind. And I was like, oh, okay, so this is what marriage is. And I remember thinking at a time like, oh, I don't know if I'm capable of that. I think I would just want to curl up into a ball and cry. I wouldn't be able to ride motorcycles with my friend. That's for sure. But he was so secure in his marriage and the fact that his wife loved him that even though they were having this like intense conflict, he was just so sure that he was going to come back and be able to solve it and stay married and be fine. That didn't, at the time, I was just like, whoa. And now I'm fine like in that zone where I'm like, you couldn't get rid of me if you wanted to. I'm still married to you. It's unreal, you know?

Starting point is 01:21:50 It's sort of like how we can speak very freely with our family, like our brothers or sisters. But we can also take advantage of that familiarity. And so I think of the opinion that you want to fight, but it depends on what you mean by fight. And you want to fight fair. To be clear, the story isn't about him being mean to it, or him and his wife being mean and me being like, oh, interesting. It's about like how anxiety-inducing that intense of an argument would be. As a person who doesn't, isn't married. And then you realize when you're married, like, if you're in that intense situation,

Starting point is 01:22:27 you ultimately know, like, I love my wife, it's going to be fine. Did you, I don't mean to psychoanalyze you, for me, my parents stayed together. Yeah. And my wife's parents are still together, you know, and I saw them fighting. My parents occasionally. And whenever they did, and there was, I remember this one time, my dad was so pissed off with my mom. We were going somewhere and he slammed the door. and I was so angry with him for being angry at my mom.

Starting point is 01:22:53 I was probably 13 or 14. Yeah, yeah. But I remember that night, like, they sat us down and told us that they'd made up. And it was, like, really beautiful. So I've had a good. I get a beautiful experience of that. Interest. That's so good.

Starting point is 01:23:04 But I would think that if I was, and I don't know about, I know you have a stepdad, but I don't know your situation. But I would think that if I grew up in a family where an argument led to a divorce and then everyone I know once, like, that's just part of life. You get divorced. Yeah. Then I would get really anxious about those interactions. Is that partly?

Starting point is 01:23:20 why you felt that way? You know what? I'm very lucky that my, my biological father was married to a woman for like 20 something years before he passed away. So that, his marriage to her really, really, really motivated me.

Starting point is 01:23:37 Like, they had like a beautiful marriage. Every time I would visit their family, they would be very kind to each other. So I got to see like what a good marriage looks like. So I'm like wildly fortunate in that way. And also, I grew up in Utah, around Mormons, and a lot of those people are really beautifully married. So kind to each other, so good to their kids, so aware. They talk to them like adult. Like they talk normally, you know,

Starting point is 01:24:05 they have like really good family dynamics. So I got a lot of really cool things to see. Also, to my mom's credit, as bad as in untraditional's things were, my mom was always like very clear, like, this isn't normal. And then she would be like, like, Like, this should be different. You're like, you know. And so, yeah, she was great too. So I guess I didn't grow up with that anxiety. I did, but it is weird when you walk into an argument,

Starting point is 01:24:32 especially if you don't know the dynamics of the two arguing. Like my wife, I are pretty, you know, we express ourselves. And so I think people have probably seen us get into an argument where they thought the world was ending and we were like, oh, we didn't even know we were arguing. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Either of us felt our cortisol levels spike here.

Starting point is 01:24:51 We've just, this is a challenge. Yeah. I remember getting into an argument with my wife once, and it was about 15 years into our marriage probably. And I remember having this terrifying realization that this thing is not unbreakable. Yeah. That's a scary thought. That is. Oh, I can't take her for granted.

Starting point is 01:25:14 I can't take this for granted. I could destroy this. Yeah. That's scared. the hell out of me. It scares me too. I've been thinking that a lot about so many things. Just even like in terms of me being like a comedian who is Catholic. It's not even like a Catholic influencer. But then there's that like nightmare fear of somehow like becoming embroiled in a scandal that makes my religion or family look bad. You know, there's that pressure that weird like

Starting point is 01:25:42 so that like dread pressure. It's not real. I'm never, me and my wife are fine. But then that that knowledge just that like I'm a man and I can destroy yeah I'm so capable of destroying everything I can lay my eyes on yes and and and knowing that you have that is power the right word capability it is some kind of power but knowing that it's in us and that it's like it would take hours well we could ruin our lives in hours well yeah and and every man who's destroyed his marriage has been a man who probably at one point didn't think that imaginable. Right. That's the thing that scares me the most. I imagine, I imagine someone sort of sitting down and their wife leaves a room and they're alone and they realize it's ending and then they kind of go, what happened? Or they're

Starting point is 01:26:38 kind of like, if I had made that one wrong decision, different decision, have you ever been like in an argument with your wife and you think of something to say and you don't say it? And then like a week later, you literally are like, thank God. Thank God. I didn't, I didn't just let my lips do the mean thing my brain thought of or whatever. And you're like at the time in that moment, it felt like it was such a good idea or so, or like it was justice, some kind of like justice or deserved act or whatever. And then given time, you're like, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I wasn't rude or whatever. And then I stop and think,

Starting point is 01:27:21 how many more times would I be glad I wasn't rude if I held my tongue? Yeah, that thought with your wife especially. It's like kind of heartbreaking sometimes. I've been journaling a lot. Yeah? It's been so good for me. Yeah?

Starting point is 01:27:34 Incredible. I have like a journal and a prayer journal. So I have a journal where I write to God and a journal where I just kind of like document what's going on. The writing to God is like crazy. I highly recommend everybody. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:46 It's just taught, it's prayer in your dirt. But when you're writing it out, and to go and read it back is kind of nice, my father died. And I was like, oh. Recently? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. My father passed away and I was like, man, I would love to have his writings or musings or like video.

Starting point is 01:28:06 And then I realized like, I have kids. I'm going to die. I bet they want to read my thoughts and whatever. So I've been like taking these journals, but they've been helping me be. so self-reflective. But how do you, see, I wouldn't think it would be good for me to think that someday someone would read this. I would hold back on being really, brutally honest. I'm the opposite. Yeah. I say things that I'm like, I hope no one reads it now, but when I'm gone, I hope they have this insight into like, what a truly real person I was. When I say real, I mean like complete and

Starting point is 01:28:37 whole, your kids might not see you be the most vulnerable your wife will see you. Yeah. Just because you, you maintain that like, I'm your dad, I'm always going to be here for you kind of thing. that I remember I had this weird moment I'm a crier I cry quite a bit just not like randomly or when I'm hurt but like I'll read an emotional thing a commercial will get me on that kind of guy

Starting point is 01:28:57 and we had like a family emergency and my daughter was with me and I normally would have cried upon getting the information I got and I thought to myself don't cry be like be the rock for your daughter and she cried

Starting point is 01:29:14 and I held her And then we had this like really nice afternoon together. And I was really sweet to her and it was really good. And she was so happy afterwards. And I thought to myself, I was like, am I making the wrong move by like not crying in front of her? Because she needs to see men cry and stuff. But then I was like, my instinct is I didn't have to like suck them back in or something.

Starting point is 01:29:37 But there was this weird thing in my brain that clicked was like you are her dad. You are infinitely strong compared to her. give her the rock you are the rock and in that moment I just thought I don't want to cry I just don't want to and I was like

Starting point is 01:29:52 what a weird mindset shift for me what a I never in a million years expected to feel that way and now I'm like oh okay so I have a different relationship with my emotions and how I'm expressing myself especially because you know

Starting point is 01:30:06 you realize like I am a thing to these people you know the moment I realized like, oh, okay, I got to get my wife to heaven. Wasn't when we first got married, unfortunately. As much as they hammer that home, you have to live it for a little while. This is what I mean about you could have spoken eloquently on your wedding day, but yeah, no, I know,

Starting point is 01:30:27 and here's why. You could have given an inspirational talk that would have caused other men to believe what you did not yet believe. Right. And then you believed it how? What happened? I don't know. I did experience.

Starting point is 01:30:37 Just being with my wife and my being. like my being lazy translated into her being lazy or my mistake translated into her mistake or my sin affected her or my not going to confession means she didn't go and then I'm sort of imagining oh okay hold up that's my fault like I need to get her to heaven and by getting her to heaven I'm going to get myself to heaven and you're like okay being of service is how I'm going to do all the important things I need to do. It's like the order of Morris, you know? You're like, okay, so if I honor God, then I'll honor my wife by default.

Starting point is 01:31:20 Yeah. You know, but that realization, like, as you're living, your married life. No, it's so, it's so easy, right? Because I think if we just realize that I am here for my wife, I am here to love her well. So that, like, if I'm not with her, her day won't be as good necessarily. If I'm with her, it's like, I'm going to make her day better by loving her. Right. It's like, it's just that mindset shift.

Starting point is 01:31:46 We just accidentally switch, you know, rails, switch lanes into consumption. Yeah. You're here to make my life better and you're not. Therefore, this isn't working as opposed to I am here to lay down my life for you. Yeah. That's the only way marriage can work. It can't work in the consumption way because there's not enough in her and there's not enough in him. No, never.

Starting point is 01:32:09 Yeah, that's so... But then there's also things can get awkward, too, when you feel taken advantage of legitimately. Anyway. Sometimes you just have to. You just have to be. Taking advantage of it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:32:20 And that just is what it is. I like that. I keep thinking like, okay, marriage isn't supposed to always be fun. It's not supposed to always be good. There are times where like I'm the, I'm struggling, I'm having a bad time and you're having a good time. And that feels so unjust because we're one. but like sometimes my foot is having a bad time and my brain is not you know what i mean like so like if we're part of the body like yeah so you're like okay that's fine this is fine and then you get into the minutia

Starting point is 01:32:50 of your marriage and that affects the big stuff like something i was praying about today a realization i had today i was at the airport the uber was taking too long let's get a rosary out i'm thinking to myself i'm just being contemplative between decades and i was thinking about my marriage and then I was like what am I doing in my marriage that is negative or that I can change or whatever and I was imagining I've been doing this thing where I'm trying to have a good attitude and if my wife asked me to do literally anything I just do it I'm just like what it's fine I'll just go take out the trash I'll just get it right now and um it's been working but I was realizing like oh I think I've been doing this like my wife is like hey can you do this for me

Starting point is 01:33:33 and she's very pregnant right now so she asked me for a lot of things and I do this I go, oh, okay, yeah, I got it. Uh-huh. And I'm thinking to myself and I go, how cool is it that I'm always there for my wife? She can depend on me for anything. I'm always helpful. But over time, maybe how bad does that make her feel or how weird or maybe I'm being, I just look like a baby or I'm not meaning to do that.

Starting point is 01:33:59 I am not put out by my wife, but I'm imagining, I was like thinking back to myself and how often I'm like psyching myself up. like, okay, I got you. And I'm like, no, what is the point of doing it if I'm not going to do it joyously? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you, you get to help your pregnant wife. Yeah. What else is life about? Yeah, that's good. What important thing am I doing that I'm huffing and puffing? Yeah, it's almost worse when you ask somebody to do something and they do that. Then you just feel guilty. I would rather, don't worry about it. Totally. Totally. Totally. And to my wife's credit, she hasn't done that, but she also can't do that. some ways because she's so pregnant right now. But like, I was thinking about that today and I was like, dude, I got to get my attitude together. I can't be huffing and puffing. Brothers, Christ is

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Starting point is 01:36:10 That's Exodus 90.com slash Matt. The weight of glory challenge runs throughout the Easter season. Download the app today and become the man God created you to be. I think what's tough about marriage sometimes is, like I can imagine you perhaps say texting her or calling her and apologizing for the ways that you do that. Yeah. But as you're apologizing, realizing, I will do this when I see you tonight again. Yes. Yes.

Starting point is 01:36:33 Anna. Yeah. It's usually when you apologize to somebody for something, the understanding is you won't do that thing anymore. But there's just so much that you need to apologize for and that she needs to apologize for it, that she won't change. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:36:46 You're just going to apologize knowing I'll probably do this in the next 12 hours. I'm sorry for that one too. Dude. That's the main thing about marriage is that marriage is like life. Like, it's not supposed to be just. It's about how I react to how unjust it is. What's that line from clean? Eastwood. Fair's got nothing to do with it. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not fair. Is nobody

Starting point is 01:37:08 says at the end? I forget that movie. I know what you're referencing, but I don't at the same time. Yeah, that's good. But that's so true. It's just like, I, when you're in a marriage, you yearn for justice. We both have to be happy. We both have to be equal. We both have to be this. You can't just, you can't get to go do this and then I have to do this extra chore and then we never switch. I never get to go on vacation or it's always a tip for tat or a or a this and that and it's that's not marriage marriage isn't just it's not supposed to be like there's no it reminds me of this post i saw recently this husband put it a facebook post and he said a word to the wise don't come home from a whole day of golf and ask your wife what's for dinner and i thought well why the hell not yeah just tell her to make you

Starting point is 01:37:57 dinner she should just love you and make you dinner right and if you're a woman who's offended by that, flip it and you'll no longer be offended and you'll see how infected we all are by feminism. Right. Like imagine a woman going, just so you know, don't go out with the ladies and come home and ask your husband like to put the kids to bed. Well, why the hell not? Yeah, he's their dad. And I was out having a good time. That's awesome. Now, yeah, like, obviously when you're taking the particularities that could be like if you should have overwhelmed or he's, I understand that. But there's the, the obsession with balance in marriage is gone. You're not two people, you're one person. There's nothing balanced about this. There's, it's not, balance is out. Stop trying to be balanced. Stop

Starting point is 01:38:35 trying to be equal. Stop trying to, to like even the score or whatever. And it's all, almost all of it's automatic. It's not like we're consciously being like, so I put the kids to bed two nights in a row. So she owes me a night, you know. I mean, we all wake up and we interpret reality through our own preferences and desires and needs. Right. And two people are now waking up in a bed and they're interpreting reality based on what they think they need. Right. And that's not bad. It's just a kind of starting point.

Starting point is 01:39:07 And then God teaches you how to love and it's brutal. Yeah, I want to get to the point where I wake up and I want to interpret reality based on what my wife and kids. Come on. Right. I tell you what, I want that too. I also don't want it, which is why I haven't done it yet. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:39:21 No, it's tough. But I know that if I did do that, I could actually finally be happy. I know. Dude, in my in my stand-up right now, I talk about I talk about a time of my life I was wildly depressed, but I had the most money and I was doing the best and I had women and everything, right? I had all the carnal pleasures you could imagine

Starting point is 01:39:41 and I was single in New York and I was so depressed and I talk about this in the stand-up. This is as I'm beginning to find God and get out of depression. And I'm so depressed and I immediately forgot where I was going with this. But I remember this bit in your stand-up. It was a moment.

Starting point is 01:39:57 Because you talked about how your friends in New York were on like Xanax or whatever. Yeah, yeah. They're all like the the general idea of it is that they're trying to, I go to them because they're all advocates for mental health. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We're all about positive mental health self-care. And I go, I think I want to end my life. But I have money and women and success. Like, what is going on guys? I'm happy. Why do? Why am I sad? And they were like, oh, it's totally normal. What you need to do is take medicine. do this, do this. And in the joke, and in real life, I come to the realization that they're trying to feel good, not get better. And I was kind of like,

Starting point is 01:40:36 oh, I don't, I, I've always been of the mind that I don't really care how I feel. Like, how I feel is irrelevant compared to, like, what is true and important, or what needs to get done, or what my mission is. Okay, that's interesting.

Starting point is 01:40:50 And before I would just make the mission up. Yep. I was a very, like, Albert Camus, like, let's just get out and dance. life is meaningless, make your own meaning. But then you, you find God and he goes, get it together. And you go, oh yeah, my bad. And then you realize like what reality is about. But living for those other things as opposed to your own selfishness. Like the amount of days I fail to pray the rosary, a thing that would take me 15 minutes that I don't even have to take seriously, I could do it

Starting point is 01:41:24 badly instead of not doing it. At the least, I don't even do that. I don't even speed through it some days. It's so easy. It's like, what is that? I've been really on that, oh man, I'm immediately spacing the quote, but I do what I don't desire and I desire what I don't do. It's when Peter, the freaking rock.

Starting point is 01:41:48 Or is it Peter? Paul, Paul, yeah. The things I want to do, I cannot do. Yeah. Who will save me from this body of death. death. Yeah, and he's, but he's, and he's talking about, like, his desires for sin, despite the fact that he knows what he truly desires. You know, going back to your journals and people reading them after the fact, I wonder if

Starting point is 01:42:07 when we're reading, like, I do the things I don't want to do if pulls up, they'd be like, I was, okay, so in context, wasn't having a great day. I thought only one person was going to read that. Didn't expect this was going to be a worldwide bestseller. Yeah, yeah, yeah. God didn't tell us that this was the Bible. He was just, inspiring. I was writing a letter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I... That's probably one of the most relatable passages in all of scripture. The things I want to do, I cannot do. When I tell you, when I read that, and I just sat back and went, whoa. When did you read that? Like, as a non-Christian? No, right during my conversion. Yeah. And it was right after I had been baptized and I went to confession for the first time,

Starting point is 01:42:48 and I was like feeling beat down by sin and the desire for sin and just like, Is this even possible? Yeah. I don't know if, I mean, maybe, I always, I was about to say, I don't know if any adult converts and I'm like, no, Cradle Catholics, all of us. That feeling of like, literally there's no way. There's just no way to beat it. There's no way I'm going to avoid mortal sin for any amount of, that feeling of hopelessness.

Starting point is 01:43:16 Yeah. Despair. Despair where you're just like, and it's not even that you want it. It's just that like, dude, this is crazy. Be stick with it. You pray. You do get there, if anyone's wondering. I was with a beautiful Benedictine monk, Father Barnabas, shout out.

Starting point is 01:43:33 Amazing guy. You'd love this guy. I'll give you one sentence, he said to me to show you that you would love this guy. We're walking into his rectory, and he turned around and went, actually, do you want to see my piranhas? And I went, yes. All right. Absolutely. Father Barnas was saying to me that he's more and more convinced that Satan doesn't just want us to sin, but wants us to

Starting point is 01:43:54 feel the effects of sin. Yes. Isolation and chaos and yeah. I'm convinced. You know what else was a big moment for me as I was converting was learning that sin darkens the intellect. Yeah. And like, because there's this thing when anyone who has, um, come over to Catholicism or

Starting point is 01:44:15 conservatism from far left and there's a ton of us right now. I talk to people all the time. They're like genuine like discord support groups for tons of leftists who have come to Catholicism or just conservatism, kind of giving it up because they see like, oh, everyone's eating each other. This is terrible. No one's getting anything done, hypocrites, yada, yada, yada.

Starting point is 01:44:33 So they come over and, again, I forgot what I was talking. Well, Discord servers left us coming over looking for encouraging. What did I say? Father Barnabas were saying the effects of sin. The effects of sin. And Satan doesn't just want the sin. He wants us to feel discouraged. Right.

Starting point is 01:44:52 I just get you into a place where you're discussing. It's almost like the sins irrelevant. The sin was just meant to buy this. So if I could just get you to feel this, whether or not you sin, that's the goal. When I talk to these people and when I also converted the embarrassment from sort of your lack of critical thinking skills on certain subjects or your like suspension of disbelief on certain things. Like it's crazy. You feel crazy. It's almost like the veil is lifted.

Starting point is 01:45:22 where you're like, I was really telling people that or like, you know, there's just so many things. Like even just confidently telling people that atheism is right or that Christianity is like bad for the world. You know, it's like, so you've never read a history book ever? Is that what's going on here? Like, and then you, when you look back and you're like, oh, sin darkens the intellect, I wanted to believe that there's no way pornography could harm people long term. because of course I did. And I was being dumb about it because of course I was. I was sinning so much

Starting point is 01:45:59 that my sin was justifying itself. You know, I wasn't, there was no critical thinking going on. So, which is, that's a wild one. The sin darkens the intellect. I've probably brought this up to you before, but Metallica.

Starting point is 01:46:16 And some kind of monster, the documentary, did you watch that? Did I bring this? Do you remember when James Hepford? is talking to the camera or he's talking to whoever's interviewing him. And he refers back to the early days where he would wake up in some bed with some woman that he doesn't even know. He's drunk out of his head.

Starting point is 01:46:32 He's got a show to do. Yeah. And he compares it to today where he's sober and he's got children. And he's like, this is a lot more interesting. Yeah. And to have James Hetfield say that was way more convincing than St. Augustine or somebody else saying it to me at the time where I was. That's so funny. It is crazy to be like, okay, so just everywhere.

Starting point is 01:46:54 Just generally it's smarter to do that. To just like, it's so much more rewarding to have a family. But it's so difficult. This all goes back to where I say someone cut their nose off. And you're like, that's easier? Yes. Do you not think it would be easier to cut your nose off than to be a good husband for a year? I think it would be easier.

Starting point is 01:47:15 Yeah. It doesn't mean I'd choose it because it sounds terrible. Right, right. You don't want to choose it. But it does sound easier. easier, right? It is. Just think of like a quick moment of pain and some healing. I'm just thinking like fast forward three months from now in Pines with Aquinas and I don't have a nose. You're just like without a nose. And I never come with it. You're wearing a Rolex with no nose.

Starting point is 01:47:34 So things are going good over here, you guys. So fun. Your hair's fuller than ever. Yeah. Something's weird about. Yeah, he's buff. Talk to me about watches. I don't understand. I like that people are in, here's what I like. Let me zoom out a bit. I love it when anyone is into something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. Whether it be Warhammer or Rolexes or trains or even not football.

Starting point is 01:48:04 I changed my mind, not anything. Some reason that bores me. But when people are into the niche of the thing, the more interested I am in them. I'm with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me about watches. Why are people into watches? I started getting into watches very, very, very recently.

Starting point is 01:48:19 Okay. All right. So what happened was... Tell me about how that happened. So I got married. Yeah. My grandfather gifted my father a stopwatch when he married my mom. Still having the image of me with no nose but a roll. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're just doing so. With a big gold chain with a dollar sign on it. You're like, huh, weird. That's really doing good. No. See you everybody. You drive away in your Porsche one ear is. missing on this side. Wow, how's he do it?

Starting point is 01:48:54 Yeah, so my grandfather gifted my dad a pocket watch. My dad gives me the pocket watch when I get married. I have it when I get married. I just think it's cool. That's so cool. And I went to look up what kind of pocket watch it was and learn about it.

Starting point is 01:49:09 And then I just ran into like watch culture. And so many people love watches and they have a lot of historicity and they're a mechanical thing, you know, and there's a lot to, them. But what's most interesting to me is watches are a tool that are made to last forever, depending on what kind of watch you have. So that means watches, if they last forever and they're a tool that makes them essentially like a car you wear on your wrist. So guns, cars, watches,

Starting point is 01:49:37 these are all like permanent items that hold value, depending on what they are, and last for your whole life that you give to people. So then people go, okay, well, my watch lasts forever. It's worth a lot of money and it's all this, it's this beautiful contraption with all this passion and hard work and science. And then what you do is you have a watch that lasts forever. So then how are you going to use it? Well, what watch are you going to wear when your kids are born? Well, do you wear the same watch when every single one is born? Well, now that watch has like these special memories attached to it. But because it's a permanent item of high value that never is destroyed, it keeps carrying these things with you.

Starting point is 01:50:18 It's a witness to the game. Like, this is how I'll explain watches to someone who doesn't like watches. You like to play video games. Do you like board games, video games? Do you like games in general or experiences, right? Just because I don't want to derail. Sure, yes, I love it.

Starting point is 01:50:35 Sure, yes. I know you like some games. So when you share, when someone watches you play a game or you play a game with someone, it makes it more special. 100%. Memory lasts longer. This yesterday, Pandora Directive, a game from the 90s that I love.

Starting point is 01:50:48 Play it with my son. Dude, the best. Even if they just watch, even if my daughter just watching. My son sometimes asks me to play and he wants to watch. I love, my daughter does it too. I love that. I'm like, yes. And sometimes I do it to hurt you play.

Starting point is 01:51:00 I'll watch. Let's hang out together. I want to ask people in the comments. Does anybody know the Pandora Directive? I think 3%. I don't know it. No one knows it. Interest.

Starting point is 01:51:07 It's the best game ever invented. Crazy. And it's a point-and-click adventure game. But tell us in the comments. I love a point. I just want to know if anybody, if I met someone and they said they like Pandora directive, I'd be like, could you please be my best friend? All right. So I get the point.

Starting point is 01:51:21 So the witness to the game makes the game more special. Yep. The witness makes the memory forever, right? All right. So when you do something like get married wearing a watch, your baby is born and you're wearing the watch. The watch is a witness. Okay. The watch is the witness.

Starting point is 01:51:43 to the memory. Okay. So the watch begins to accumulate witnesses and therefore accumulates value based on where it's been and what it's seen because it is a witness. That's why people love things like the moon watch. That watch was invented to go to the moon. It witnessed the moon. When you wear it, you're wearing a witness to a man walking on the moon, right? And that's like special to you. So as a man, as you get older, you get a fancy watch and you wear it and you make it a part of your story and it witnesses your story play out and you pass the witness on to other people who then accumulate witness. I see. And these make the items like they're basically irreplaceable. And so a lot of people own watches.

Starting point is 01:52:36 It's almost like a relic in a way. Yes. It's literally like a relic. And you know what? We're Catholic. We can just have our watches bless, bro. We could turn our watches into relics, like, which I wish I had had this when I went to rock.

Starting point is 01:52:48 To see that. Would you mind if I asked you to, tell me about this watch. This is a Hamilton khaki field mirf. Okay. I think I'm saying that right. Or it's just a mirf. So this is a field watch.

Starting point is 01:53:00 This is technically a tool watch. And it goes, this is this company Hamilton. They made watches that went to D-Day. Okay. So this is an automatic watch. It has no battery, but it will run literally forever if you take care of it has a little pendulum in it. And when did you get this?

Starting point is 01:53:14 I got this a couple weeks ago. So my wife, I'm going to get. I'm afraid that this thing will pinch my hair. I don't know that it. I'm also afraid they're going to break it. If it fits, man, I'm fat. I got fat wrist, dude. Well, I've got skinny little dainty wrists.

Starting point is 01:53:30 This is a good watch. I like your watch. Yeah, this is good. So is this an expensive watch? Can I ask? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:53:38 So I bought that to, where while my daughter's born. It's not a cut your nose off to a photo cut. It's not a cut your nose off watch, but it's something. Dude, to wear your watch, I had to put it on the very last rung. You do have big risks, my... Do you have different types of watches? This is...

Starting point is 01:53:54 Yeah, I do. Is this the first watch that you were like, I'm gonna get into watches? This is, yes, this is the watch. This is like, when I'm older, I want my kids to be like, that's dad's watch. Dad. I can't wait to go back to the YouTube Analytics and see when all of my audience. dropped out of this episode.

Starting point is 01:54:11 I'm gonna feel this around the watch. They're just like, yeah, we're out. We're out on the watch. Look, we appreciate you and shame. I always have people at shows be like, I saw you on pints and I loved it. Thank you so much. I can't wait for my next show to be like,

Starting point is 01:54:27 I tried to watch you on pints. I was out after you cut Matt's nose off, but cool watch. So, all right. And that makes sense. Like, if you viewed watches like that, the way that you do, you know, I don't know if I could ever get into it like that.

Starting point is 01:54:42 I have other things I get into. But I'm just saying if I, if you're into watches the way you're describing, I can then understand why people would invest a lot of money in a watch. Right. Yeah. But then there's like ridiculous stuff. Yeah. Where people have like $100,000 watches.

Starting point is 01:54:55 Yeah. That don't seem like they're worth $100,000. Yeah. And then I'm pretty sure there's a website and I'm pretty sure because a friend told me that you can buy expensive looking watches, but like the buttons don't even work. Like they're a replica of the. cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could get knocked. That must frustrate the watch community. I don't think they care because if you're a watch guy, the watches you wear, like,

Starting point is 01:55:18 like no regular person sees my watch and goes, oh, but a watch guy sees my, I've had a watch guy at the airport be like, hey, I like your watch, brother. Keep talking. I'm going to find my computer. I want to look up stuff about watches while we talk. Go watch. Go look it up. But so like this, so if you're a watch guy and you see someone with a fake Rolex, like you know, you're aware because you're a watch guy non-watch people they don't even know a Rolex half the time when they see it not that the Rolex I mean it's just the most famous brand

Starting point is 01:55:46 I would say the best Omega is that what we want to say I don't know I don't know that's what James Bond wears What are we looking up You should look up Omega C Master Omega C Master That's the watch Ben Shapiro's watches

Starting point is 01:55:59 Oh here we go You know that Ben has some freaking expensive watches Dude I bet Okay so here's one Someone's got a photo of him wearing a watch that looks like his discussion with Russell Brand, though I can't be sure. I don't know what kind of watch that was. I see, I thought it was much simpler. I thought it was like dudes want to wear jewelry and this is their only way to do it. It's more about like the

Starting point is 01:56:21 hystericity. That's a word everyone that I'm using. And yeah, and the witness of the watch and like the general engineering and craftsmanship. The engineering of a watch is crazy. I decided I needed nice watch when I watched a video of someone. What's happening? Hard to watch, putting one back together. Oh, okay. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:56:45 You can keep, you can adjust it, but feel free to keep the non-focus in the, yeah, sorry about that. See, but I'm looking at watches right now and they're all. Should I use the restroom one? Yeah, can we pause? Let's pause and we'll take a urination station. A urination station. Oh, he's going to love this.

Starting point is 01:57:09 Oh, wow. Oh, my house focus again? No. We'll cut to now. Yeah. All right. We'll see. In like three seconds, someone's about to come back and be like, you really did that.

Starting point is 01:57:21 So I don't know why I was looking up. I just know Shapiro's and the watches as well. All right, but here's a, okay, how can you tell a fake Rolex? Let's see what AOS says about that, because I could never tell. Does spot a fake Rolex check for smooth sweeping? That's what you talked about. Secondhand motion rather than ticking. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:57:41 There you go. This ticks, though, but this isn't a Rolex. No, not a Rolex. But, like, if that's the only thing, who cares? But, again, your point is, it's not about other people. It's not about it. It's about it. It's about it. It's about you. Because you want, again, the watch is for, it's like for other watch guys.

Starting point is 01:57:58 It's not for regular people. It's like beards. Yes. Bards aren't for women. Yeah, they're for men. Yeah. Seen with muscles. Yeah. Muscles aren't for women.

Starting point is 01:58:07 It's true. When I... The more women I speak to, the more I'm finally convinced that's true. When I'm at the gym and I put up a decent squat and a dude is like, hey, brother, nice. I'm buzzing. When a girl is like, you look handsome, I'm like, do I know you? No, that is a nice compliment to get, but actually, women aren't telling me I'm handsome. I'll be real.

Starting point is 01:58:31 That would be hilarious if they were. Oh, that's so good. But in my fake scenario where I was mean to a woman who's never existed, a random one. woman coming up to tell me I'm handsome. Literally, get away from me. Never in my life happened to me. That makes me feel better.

Starting point is 01:58:47 I guess this is what happens to fellas. In a fantasy world where a woman was nice to me and then I was immediately mean to her, my own brain, that can't be good. Can we point out that we have six drinking vessels on the table? Dude. And yeah. And we peed like it.

Starting point is 01:59:01 Yeah, bedroll. A little bed roll action. Very cold coffee. Do you do a lot of podcasts these days? Do you go on people's shows? Yeah, here and there. So I have a question. Is it weird?

Starting point is 01:59:15 And the reason I ask this is I remember a comedian on Joe Rogan show talking about this. It's, it must be weird to be expected to be funny. Yeah. And it must be weird for the host to not realize that you're a normal person who wants to have a normal conversation, I guess. I don't know. Does that happen? It does happen. You want people to let you be funny on your own terms?

Starting point is 01:59:38 Like, yeah, yeah, I'm a comedian. I'll be silly. Yeah. But it sucks when you show up and like we were talking about earlier. And like literally like you show up at a place and they're like, we're so stoked you're here. And that's very fun. You're like, oh, cool, awesome. You shake hands and you meet and you're getting ready to do the show and they're like, we're so, we've been so excited for this episode. This is going to be our funniest episode of all time. And you're like, oh, the pressure. Like I'm not doing bits, dude. I'm just here to be me. And me's a weird guy. Like I can be funny, but I'm mostly weird. Yeah. We just talked to. about watches for like 10 minutes. Way too long. And cutting your nose off and all kinds of stuff. People are like, what? Yeah, because I remember watching Jim Gaffigan in interviews and I thought, he's great. Because you can tell he's not even interested in trying to be funny. He's clearly funny. Yeah. In interviews, he's just like a real guy trying to think through things. That's what I try to do as a comedian is like funny when appropriate, but I don't want to be like, this guy's

Starting point is 02:00:34 never off. Like that sucks. Like the inability to be sincere. I know a bunch of dudes like that. And I just don't want anything to do with that. The inability to be sincere. Sincere, yeah, yeah. People who are just always joking a little bit to the point that you're like, what do you really think about that? And they, like, genuinely can't tell you.

Starting point is 02:00:53 Not because they don't have an opinion, but because they won't have one. You know? They just, like, if everything's a joke, it gives them permission to live in a certain way. I went, I told you, I went to Zanis recently. It's interesting to me how someone can come up on stage,

Starting point is 02:01:10 And maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure there's cases where someone will walk up and say, you form an opinion and then they subvert it. But some people just walk on and you're like, oh, you'll never make it. Like, you're not good. Yeah. Just from the energy of you walking on,

Starting point is 02:01:25 I get the sense that, oh, and then the first sentence maybe. But then there are other people who are really good. Like when John came on, when John Christ came on, there was like an energy and we all got sucked into it. Yeah. You can feel someone that's like in control, their body language. That is what it is, I think. There's a ton of subconscious stuff happening in comedy that even we as comedians aren't quite sure about.

Starting point is 02:01:48 This is why, to go back to the point I made many years ago that made the internet hate me, I think this is why I've never found a funny female stand-up. It's control. It's very normal and natural for a man to get on stage and control a room. Yeah. There's something that's not, and I'm not saying women, maybe it's possible. I still haven't found a funny stand-up. There's one Sheila, who I heard.

Starting point is 02:02:09 I'm like, that's the closest. She had like a southern accent. I liked her. She was doing mum jokes. Okay. I didn't talk about gross stuff, which is what a lot of women do. But I think the reason a lot of women resort to the gross stuff is they don't have the control that a man has. Let me finish my thought.

Starting point is 02:02:25 Then you can call me a sexist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I made this point, which apparently I keep choosing to make. Yeah. I had a woman write a piece in psychology today who used to be a female stand up and she was defending me. Well, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, here's why. Used to be.

Starting point is 02:02:45 Fair enough. Your strategy is, she seems like she knows. Yeah, right. Here's the point. She says, you can either blame a woman, not blame a woman. You can either say the woman isn't funny naturally because she doesn't have what it takes to command a room in the way a man does. And that's because of her biology. Or you can blame it on sexism and just say, we have been conditioned to not, to, to

Starting point is 02:03:08 to be kind of weirded out when a woman tries to demand my attention in the way that a man does. So you can either take the kind of biology route or the sexist patriarchy route and still agree with me. Yeah. So I would agree with you and disagree with you at the same time. I think women are super funny, but the context of stand-up is just bad for that. No, that's what I'm saying. I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just watching, who's the Sheila from Parks and Rick? Oh, Amy Pollack. She's outstandingly hilarious. Yes. Her and...

Starting point is 02:03:39 She's amazing. And, um... Brownhead, Sheila. Her friend who's on 30 Rock, Tina Faye. Yes. Dude, I'm having the most brain fart week. My wife keeps... It's because of the monk fruit instead of the sugar.

Starting point is 02:03:51 My wife keeps making jokes because she has like baby brain. Because she's literally going to have a baby like this week. Maybe now. So, yeah. Genuinely, I've... You actually probably could have kept your phone on you. I could have. It'll be fine.

Starting point is 02:04:03 I'll get home. But... Okay, then why do you agree with me then that stand up isn't what's conducive? See how I'm... pulling you into my sexism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why you think maybe synop isn't conducive to a woman shining,

Starting point is 02:04:13 because we agree that women are funny. I just don't know. I think women are funny. I'm regular style sexist, not women are funny sexist. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You have a whole step.

Starting point is 02:04:26 Yeah. So, um, no, I, I have an even worse opinion is that, no, this group of people again. They're not even people. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever seen an African make a joke? Actually, dude, there's a Nigerian comedian. I don't even know why what that sentence means. Have I ever seen an African make a joke?

Starting point is 02:04:44 I'm being a guy who has a worse opinion than you. Yeah, yeah. That's the bit is that I'm finding worst group to be like, if you have a reason seen? No, so women can be funny, but the context of stand-up comedy is like, I'm a guy in front of all of you. It's very raw. It's kind of weird. It's confrontational in nature. Like, it can be ruined by the audience or the comedian. Sometimes there is confrontation. It's a very masculine place. Okay. There's drinking. Sometimes there's smoking. But the confrontation thing makes sense to me. Yeah. Like you're getting up to go to war on these people. 100%. Comedy is confrontation. Stand up comedy. There you go. So when you see Tina Faye and you're like, you are one of the greatest comedy writers who ever live. You're so genuinely funny. Like her book is

Starting point is 02:05:36 really fun. She has a really funny book. Like she's great. I think 30 Rock is a genius show, even though it is pretty inappropriate at times. So funny. She kills it. But I don't know that I would love her stand up. I just don't know. There is something about it.

Starting point is 02:05:52 But there are some women who rush. They subvert that confrontational expectation. I find that women who don't do impressions of men are the funniest. When they don't do. So like women who aren't being. like women who have like very specific styles to them. And so like Maria Bamford. Oh, so good.

Starting point is 02:06:17 I have to look her up. She kills it. She's very weird. You might not like her. But she's very, like, she's very like just out there. Totally weird. She's herself. And a, dude.

Starting point is 02:06:28 No one's more authentic. Her and Norm, she's like lady norm to me. I think she's so cool and funny and interesting and dress is really weird. She rocks. Maria Bamford is an artist like through and through Could you send me something?

Starting point is 02:06:41 Yeah, yeah, definitely link or something. I'd love to watch it. So there are lots of comics like her that I think are so good. Miss Pat, wildly inappropriate. And it couldn't be more inappropriate

Starting point is 02:06:51 just so everyone knows has a very particular style to her. So these are great female comics. But yeah, when comedy comics come out and they're kind of doing like Sam Kinnison, you know,

Starting point is 02:07:03 like, oh, I'm nasty and I'm gross and I'm saying a story about this. and you're like, ugh. Yeah, why are you doing like shock comedy at me? You know, I don't even like when men do it these days. Yeah. Let alone, like, I don't want to see.

Starting point is 02:07:17 And especially now, too, because, like, any woman who's in the limelight is, like, somehow good looking, like, every woman is good looking now because, like, Instagram, you know, like, we don't have, like, funny looking women anymore. We don't? No. I never see them. Every woman who's on stage is, like, wearing, like, a nice outfit and looks done up and fancy. I'm like, you look like a nice woman, you know, but like for dudes, I can still see guy comedians who I'm

Starting point is 02:07:45 like, gross, yeah, you, you belong up there. You know what I mean? Like in your worldwide wrestling shirt that you're wearing unironically and your ill-fitting pants, you know. The guy got up on stage at Zanese and he's like, I don't have sleep apnea. I know I look like I do. It's so good. What a great line. Yeah. Because it was only at that moment that I realized. that people who have sleep apnea have a look. Yeah, yeah, that's so funny. Or as I assume that they did. That's funny. Yeah,

Starting point is 02:08:15 I like that line. Dude, Zaney's rocks. Yeah. I need to come down here. Now, if you had of... Are you staying in the night tonight? No. Okay. If you were, is that something you can cool up? Be like, hey, I'm here. Yeah. Yeah, depending on the comedy club, I'm at a point in my career where I can just call

Starting point is 02:08:31 and be like, do you have a spot for me? Can I, like, pop into a show and do some time? That's nice. I never do it because I'm lazy. Also, it's not just that I'm lazy, genuinely. I'm like, I don't know. I kind of am done with doing that so much. I moved out of New York and now I'm just kind of hanging out with my family. And when I write my comedy, I kind of just like, know what I'm doing.

Starting point is 02:08:55 So I don't need to, I don't need to like go into workout rooms to test it as much. I just kind of like write my hour and do it. Yeah, I would imagine that most comedians would hear that and go, that's completely, yes. They hate it. It makes it, they're annoyed by me or think I'm, I'm like trying to be cool or whatever. That is genuinely my process. I write my hour and then I just do it. But then you did just say that this talk, this special is going to be a lot tighter. 100%. 100% you've been giving.

Starting point is 02:09:22 Yeah, yeah. As I do the hour and work on it, things change, things move, things get tighter, some things leave, something. So how is that not a contradiction? Because I'm not working it out in rooms where you work out. I'm working it out on stage while headlining. Oh, okay. So I write the whole hour and I perform the whole hour without practicing it. I see.

Starting point is 02:09:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you give it as a headline at multiple times until it's ready to record. Comedians usually write their bits a story at a time or 10 or 15 minutes at a time. Whereas I write them an hour at a time, which is like, not something normal comics do. I also don't even just write them an hour at a time. I don't write them out. The most I'll ever, like my hour, right now you heard it.

Starting point is 02:10:11 It's like, right now it's about an hour and 10 minutes. If I'm like hustle through and make everything good, I need to shorten it a little. So an hour and 10 minutes, the most I've written of it is like maybe 10 lines. I just write the bullet point so I remember it. Yeah. But my writing process, I don't like sit and write. I will at the end. So like my hour right now, when I am getting close to filming and I have like two or three months left and I'm going to perform it, I'll actually sit down and I'll transcribe the whole thing out from memory as best I can.

Starting point is 02:10:46 And then I'll go over it and try to tighten it up. But when I wrote it for the first time I performed it, what I do is I go on walks or runs or I go to the gym and I perform for an audience in my mind. And I just do that over and over until the whole hour. and I just keep performing it in my imagination, and then I go out and just do it. Yeah. Yeah. And are there times where your imagination audience

Starting point is 02:11:08 is way more into you than the... No. No. No, usually they're tougher. They're tougher. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's worked.

Starting point is 02:11:16 That's how I've written, like, my last four specials by performing for an audience in my mind. I feel like I can relate to you in a lot of this stuff. I'm not a comedian, but I give a lot of talks. And I think I'm kind of funny when I give talks. I'm funny if people aren't expecting me be funny. Yeah. If they came to me expecting me to be funny, they'd be deeply disappointed. Your sneak attack funny. Yeah. You know what it's like when you encounter somebody, maybe a

Starting point is 02:11:38 barista or something? And, you know, sometimes like you feel like it's not even a really human connection. Like, hi, how are you? What would you like? Yeah. And then sometimes it's like, hi. And you've made contact. Mm-hmm. To me, sometimes the audience feels like a person who I've made contact with and now can be more playful with. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I, I, there's one being in front of me. Yes. And I can go slower or faster or be a little like subtle because I know you get it because I'm getting to know the person. Right. It was one time I gave a talk. This was brutal. They had me come and give a talk on sex. Back when people used to do that before marriage, now everyone's just on their phones. But back in the day when it was a real issue and you had to talk to

Starting point is 02:12:18 teens about not having sex before marriage. Yeah. I got up in this gymnasium to talk to all these kids who were sitting on the floor. And this is when I was young and cool and had not. no fears. I'm like, yeah, I'll talk about sex. No problem. Anyway, so I get up. But what I like, when I give a talk to people is I like the lights to be dimmed a little bit. I don't want them like this. Like we're in a studio and I have to look at their faces while I talk to them about. Their shame, right? So I say to the guy, hey, would you mind if we just, just, actually, it was before the prayer. I'm like, do me a favor. Would you just turn the lights down, like just a couple of them off? So I start the prayer before the talk starts. And it just goes pitch black.

Starting point is 02:12:56 Well, it turns out it's one of these old gymnasiums where the lights take like 20 minutes to go back on. Because I'm like, you know, hey, I'm like, amen, if we could please put the lights back on. And the lights start to go on. But at that moment, I didn't know how long it was going to take for the lights to come on. If I had have known it was going to take 15 minutes to look normal, I would have said, let's regroup. But I didn't know that. So I just talked about sex to a bunch of teenagers in the dark. You just have a flashlight.

Starting point is 02:13:28 You're like, whoa! You think this is scary. Try HPV. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Dude, that's so funny. That was really cool. Worst case scenario.

Starting point is 02:13:42 One more story. And then I want to ask you about your most awkward moments. People who listen to the show, I only have five stories that may have heard this already, but I was given a men's talk. I don't know what this was. This is my laptop. I didn't have my laptop. I'm given a men's talk. And I had this bit.

Starting point is 02:13:55 It was like five rules. Every man must. break. And as I'm on rule number three, I realize I don't remember number five. So I just, so instead of going, and number five, I just say the third rule, move on to the fourth and go, and finally, and I say it, right? Yeah. And like, all right, well, that's that. Let's just end with the pre. What's the fifth one? Sorry, what was that? What was the fifth one? Now, what I should have done is, I misspoke. What I should have done is just been like, I forget. That would have been less awkward than what I did.

Starting point is 02:14:31 What did you do? What I did was, walked off the stage to my bag, pulled out my computer that had my talk on it, brought it over, opened it, that was what this was, opened it up, realized my computer wasn't on. So I'm like, hold on. Dung! Hey, can we get the lights down for a second? And the fifth one was so disappointing. Okay, so those, I didn't even remember. You don't remember it now?

Starting point is 02:14:57 It was like don't ask directions. That's a rule every man must break. We hear don't ask directions, but like in the spiritual life you shoot some friggin thing like that. Not the point. The point was it was really embarrassing. That's so funny to get your computer and be like, even this isn't working.

Starting point is 02:15:11 Oh my gosh. So what was, what are some moments you may have had? Oh, I've had some really bad ones. I mean bombs that are like terrible, terrible. Once I did a show and I was told not to swear. and I said the, I opened, I was the host. And without realizing it at a corporate show, I had said the F word like three times within eight minutes of being on stage.

Starting point is 02:15:38 And the guy was lighting me like over and over again. From the side? Yeah. And then he just, the dude who was in charge just walked on to stage while I was still on stage. It was like, Shane Smith, everybody. And then like, shoot me off. And the owner of the club cussed me out. I was like, I can't believe you did that.

Starting point is 02:15:54 And I was like beside myself. I was so embarrassed. You were apologetic as that was, yeah, I was like pulled off a defense mode. No, I am so sorry. I was in the wrong. I was in the wrong for sure. That was so brutal. I've had a lot of like just crazy bad during COVID.

Starting point is 02:16:10 They were doing shows in New York where like, you stand across the street and then they'll all stand across the street and you can do a show for them. And you're like, how would that work? You close the street down because it's like Brooklyn. So like maybe it's like a block party. That actually could be maybe cool like a barbecue. you. No. No, you're literally just doing comedy with like a speak and spell and there's a bunch of uninterested hipsters standing on a stoop and cars are going by. Oh my goodness. There's pedestrians.

Starting point is 02:16:39 And I don't know if you know this, but Bedstuy is full of the kinds of dudes who think it's hilarious to heckle comedians on the street and will also fight you. So it's just like, this is what you would deal with? So yeah, it was, it was so horrible. I didn't really personally deal with a ton of it. I did like one show and I bombed so hard. At one point, a moving truck drove past me in between me and the audience and I was just waiting like, oh, okay, my bad, everybody. And I remember I ended the story early and was like, I remember thinking like, I literally don't care. This isn't real. I don't have to care about this.

Starting point is 02:17:14 But as a comedian, you're always, other comedians are always watching you and you're always very keen to like my peers are seeing me fail. It always feels bad. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. How much would it cost? Let's say you were here tonight and saying this was open. Just for fun. How much would you, would I have to pay you for you to go up tonight and intentionally bomb without it being clear that you're intentionally bombing? No one's ever asked that question. No one's ever asked that.

Starting point is 02:17:45 So when you said intentionally bomb, I was like, that's funny. I'll do it for free. But for no one to, no one can know now I'm like no amount of money maybe. no amount of money because that's like selling my dignity. But to fail, but to to bomb and people know one bomb and know that I know I'm bombing, I'll do that. Yeah. That's funny because it'll be funny to me. Yeah. I've gone out and bombed on purpose because I didn't like an audience. Okay. I've been mad at an audience before. I was doing like an outdoor show at like this festival in Utah and the audience was like so terrible to the comic before me and people were like heckling, but not even in like clever ways, just like, why would you say that? Like that kind of thing, you know? And I went up and was just like,

Starting point is 02:18:31 you guys think that's good? What about this? And I was like reading comments off of a YouTube video and like disrespect it. Like I don't respect your time or your energy. And I was like, there were like people in this, we were like in a tent and like a festival. And you would have to get up and walk to the back of the tent to leave. And I was like, you can't escape easily. I'm going to see you if you stand up to leave. Like I was just like, Being insane at the audience, like totally getting him. But it was actually kind of working. Like the more confrontational I was, people thought it was kind of funny.

Starting point is 02:19:03 You remember the famous incident of Bill Burr? Is it Bill Burr back when he was funny? Is that his name, Bill Burr? Bill Burr was funny once. Yeah, when he got up and abused an audience. Oh, he's famous for doing that. It was very... Bernie Mac has the most famous one of all time.

Starting point is 02:19:19 At the Apollo Theater. I don't know who that is. The Apollo Theater is a very famous place where comedians would get... A Sandman, a guy with a Crozius or like a cane that comes out and like pulls you off stage. That, that Looney Tunes meme. Okay. That's from the Apollo Theater where they have like a cane and they yank you off stage. If you're not good.

Starting point is 02:19:39 So at this theater, it's very common apparently back in the day for them to heckle comedians on purpose. Like if you start to bomb, everyone booze you. They throw things at you. They go crazy. So like this is the hardest place to perform in the country because if you do bad, they punish you. Is it still that way? I don't think so. But Bernie Mac goes up after someone bombed or something,

Starting point is 02:20:02 and they were like really mean to him and boot him, even though he's very funny. And he gets up. And the very first thing he does, he goes, I'm not afraid of you, mother effort. I'm not afraid of you.

Starting point is 02:20:11 I'm not afraid of you. And he's like so intense and serious and not funny. But then he says something funny and like, dude, a killer set. But just to go up there in his first words, he's not even trying. I'm not afraid of you. You're like,

Starting point is 02:20:25 Ooh, no way. This guy's for real. Bernie Mac was so good. He was so much better than people gave him credit for. He was a legit, all-time comedian. Bernie Mac? Yeah. You got to look at it.

Starting point is 02:20:38 But I don't know what a lot of things I'm finding out. Big Black dude, he was in Transformers. He sells Shia LeBuff, Bumblebee. I never watched Transformers. See? I don't know. I just... You're killing me.

Starting point is 02:20:49 I've never watched a game of football. There's a lot of things wrong with me. Start me if this is gossip. Yeah. Because I don't want to gossip. But what, and this is actually, I should, I'm reading Father Gregory Pines' book about sins of speech, and I'm like, I got to stop gossiping and swearing, my goodness. But what do you think about?

Starting point is 02:21:08 Speaking of Transformers, Shia LaBuff's recent deal. Oh, when he was crying, having been asked the question about Christ? Yeah, did you watch that interview? Not the whole interview, just that one section when he said, if Jesus was here, what would you say to him? Yeah, yeah. It was so beautiful. It is beautiful, but just shy as situation in general. I don't know what's going on with.

Starting point is 02:21:25 So I guess, well, Shia's our age, but he's a very public Catholic, and he's a weird guy. And he's going through something. Okay. I don't know what it is, but he's doing his thing. He's also an eccentric rich person. So who knows, he's an artist. He's got stuff. Right.

Starting point is 02:21:42 He's got stuff going on. But because I exist in the same kind of space as him, which is like weird online, guys our age, tattoos, art, Catholicism. A lot of people are like, Shia, what's a? a deal with this and like talking to me or or being negative towards him saying how negative it is that he is going through what he's going through and is still talking about being Catholic. So what's, I don't understand still. What's he doing?

Starting point is 02:22:08 So there is a, should we not talk about it? We can talk about it. He did an interview. So what happened was he moves to New Orleans and he goes to Marty Grae and he's partying. He's having some drinks and whatever. And he's like a phone off just drinking out in the world. kind of guy. He's a traveler person, right? And so sure, and he gets into an altercation. He gets arrested. The altercation didn't seem too bad. It was just like something happened. Anyway, so he's

Starting point is 02:22:37 drunk at Marty Gras doing Fat Tuesday, doing Marty Gras things, sinning, not being great. He knows it. Anyway, he ends up in the news. And all these people are like, oh, Shailabuff is off the wagon because he was sober for a while. And his life is being destroyed and yada, yada, yada. And he's like, guys, I know I got arrested and it looks terrible but like I'm fine. I'm just it. I was just doing Marty Gras and I had a conversation he's like one interaction compared to two million interactions like

Starting point is 02:23:03 come on chill and he does this interview and in that interview you saw that's where he says that he's a little drunk in the interview Oh is he? Yeah he's a little drunk in the interview and he basically is just doing the interview because I don't know he says he wants people to know that he's okay but in the interview he's a little drunk

Starting point is 02:23:19 and you can tell he's drunk or hasn't come out that he was drunk. You can tell he's drunk He seems it. Yeah. He's, so again, he's not doing great, but he's also like, I'm not doing great, but I'm walking with Christ. I'm in it. I'm of work in progress.

Starting point is 02:23:36 At one point, he goes, I'm one of those dirty Christians, bro. I love that. And I love it. Yeah. Like, I as a Catholic want you to take Jesus with you everywhere you go. There's nowhere Jesus is afraid to go. There's nowhere he can't be for you, with you, you know, and I don't want Shia to not be with Christ.

Starting point is 02:23:53 So like, but I also don't want him to abuse, you know, forgiveness and all these other things. That's like the tightrope we're walking as Catholics, right? And so it's so interesting to have people who are Catholics say, Shaya's embarrassing us as Catholic. Oh no. I mean, that one clip I saw was one of the most beautiful things I'd seen. Me too. And then there are people who are not Catholics saying, look at Shaya, Catholics suck. This is what they're like. They're actually not good at being Catholic. And so then you see these two things and you go, Yeah, yeah, I guess. Like, I don't know.

Starting point is 02:24:26 I support shy and everything he's doing. I don't know. If you're going to be drunk, still love Jesus. Still go to mass. There's a difference between like, if I knew him personally. Right. And we were like, and I was in a place to offer advice. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:24:40 That's a whole other thing where I don't know who this guy is and I just see him. What do you want me to do? Condem the guy? Right. There's enough going on here to condemn. I don't need to condemn. 100%. And then there's people who are like, but weigh in.

Starting point is 02:24:50 What do you mean way in? Yeah. I'm always so interested by that. Way in. This is where I formulated the like, you want Shia to have Catholic guilt, but you also don't. That's where I thought of that. Is that right? Yeah. That's a great insight. I would make a great bit. I know. I kind of want to tie it in, but I was, but I had that realization. Oh, they want Shia. They want to hold him to the moral standard and say he's a hypocrite, but they're also angry about guilt. And it's like, he can only be one according to you and in your own, in this version of this person's world. But. yeah, what do you think about someone sort of doing badly and understanding that there may be sinning or not doing as best they could or messing up, but like still really being in it for Jesus, you know? Yeah, that's the Christian life, isn't it?

Starting point is 02:25:40 God be merciful to me a sinner. Yeah. Now, if you want to say, yeah, but he's not actually repentant, I would say, well, you don't have access to that information. Right. And you also don't have access to like his addiction. and the sort of deep roots of the sins he does struggle with. There's a great line in a prayer I pray every night from Snef from the Syrian,

Starting point is 02:26:00 if I have made fun of my brother's sins when my own faults are countless. Every time I read that, it's like a punch to the gut. And not just make fun, like, ha, ha, but just like pointing out things. Right. To look superior, it's like, have you met yourself? Yeah. You're in no place. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:26:18 I'm in no place. And what's scary is to think you're not, to think, oh, I am in a place. I am in the place to criticize or to stay. I'm always terrified. I far three times a week. I tithe. Yeah. I'd be merciful to me a sin.

Starting point is 02:26:33 Yeah. I'm not a mortal sin right now. I can, I'm good, actually. So you're the bad one. And you're like, I never want to be that place. Yeah. So Friedrich Nietzsche talks about resentiment, resentment. He uses the French word for resentment because he's trying to

Starting point is 02:26:48 distinguish it from, you know, something that's just irritating or something. No one resents like the French. Yeah. They, if you want to resent hard. And what he means by resent him all is, it's sort of like a disdain at what you think you can't achieve. So if I'm not a, if I'm not buff, which I'm not particularly buff, and you send workout photos to me, like, hey, crush it at the gym.

Starting point is 02:27:15 And I say something like, how sad that, that, that, that, so vain. Right. Now, maybe I mean that and maybe it's true, but a lot of the time it's just because I feel like I'm incapable of attaining this good that you're attaining, and so I demonize the good. You see what I'm saying? That's what he means. So my point is, I think this is often what happens when people blame you for being a Catholic and go, oh, look at you. Like, you thought it's this resent him more, where it's like, I'm actually really angry at you for marrying and being happy. Right. So if you're not happy, that I get, that gets to confirm my preconceived evil idea that marriage is for suckers and look at, he's not even happy or mass not even

Starting point is 02:27:58 happy. Right. We demonize the good. We believe ourselves incapable of attaining. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Now he did, of course, Nietzsche used it in reference to Christian. So I disagree with him there. But I think it's a really powerful insight and something we should all reflect upon. Like those things we resent and hate and try to demonize, should we be? Like success. Like you can imagine someone who like wants, he starts a business, right? Yeah. Because he wants to be wealthy and he wants to whatever. And then he fails. And then what he does is he blames everybody who is succeeding as being a sellout or materialistic. Yeah. Even if they are a sellout materialistic, that's not why he's saying it. Yeah. He's saying it because he feels weak. Yeah. Yeah. And this is this is

Starting point is 02:28:41 Dostoevsky. This is the notes from underground man. This is, yeah. Interesting. I think that that is a big part of like our, the cultural lash out at modesty right now. I feel like there's a big, like, the big push right now culturally is like, hey, we're not going to be modest. We're going to keep doing this. We're going to keep doing what we've been doing. Because like when girls are like, oh, I'm modest at the gym now. Like, this is a big thing. I wish they would stop dressing like hores at the gym. It's really ridiculous. Yeah. When they wear like the big show one lit, like they're going to know what that is. The WrestleMania, like the one. It's like crazy. You look WWEs off. Yeah, you think that the tights couldn't get any more modest and they added some kind of

Starting point is 02:29:29 G string to it. Oh, yeah. This is disgusting. It's crazy. You look like if Randy Macho Man Savage was trying to get laid at the gym. It's embarrassing. That looks bad. None of the women I've seen wearing this. look that bad, but... No, but they, like, it really is, like, they're wearing, like, swimsuits, basically. Yeah. It's not. It was shameful. And it ought to be perceived as shameful.

Starting point is 02:29:50 And you ought to feel ashamed for wearing it. I agree. It's good. So, women aren't funny. Women should feel ashamed. Continue. Boom. We got them.

Starting point is 02:29:58 No, but I fully mean it. I fully mean it in love. Of course that's what's true. Of course. Here's the thing, everyone. Don't be mad at Matt. Women have had it too good for too long. Oh, but there's this huge thing where tons of women who aren't even Catholic, just regular women, are like, I'm going to start dressing modesty at the gym.

Starting point is 02:30:20 Big shirts. How do we applaud them for just? I do. On Instagram, if I run into a reel of a woman being like, this is how I've been dressing modestly. And it's like affecting how I feel at the gym. I think it's awesome. I'll be like killing it, sister. I'll like just give them a little positivity.

Starting point is 02:30:35 Like, hey, let's let them know. But there's a huge pushback from other women. I see if I see a woman who's like There was this famous viral video that went out recently A famous viral video What boomer sentence did I just say out loud? Famous viral video That's a sentence straight out of my dad's mouth

Starting point is 02:30:53 Wow I didn't even know that was a boomer thing That's how boomer I am apparently Famous viral I mean it's superfluous But yeah yeah There's a viral video So a video of a woman

Starting point is 02:31:03 Calling out female gym creators Because in the beginning of their videos They hike up their leggings which is very clearly a draw the eye to your butt. They're trying to sexualize themselves. Okay. And so she says, this is bad.

Starting point is 02:31:16 Like, women try to defend this by saying it's normal, but you set the camera up and included it. Why are you doing this? And then she goes, this is what I look like when I lift just normally. I'll show you a video of my third set of this group of workout. And she's wearing like a big t-shirt and her regular people shorts, dressed like Adam Sandler or whatever.

Starting point is 02:31:35 She just does her workout the way we would do it. And she goes, and that's how it's done. And dude, the amount of negativity from women being like, I'm actually, you don't get to police

Starting point is 02:31:45 how I pull up my pants. And it's like, you're, it's the resentment, you know, resentmentment. Like, she's saying,

Starting point is 02:31:53 I'm gonna, anytime I read in a French, I'm gonna read it in a French accent. Oh, ha, you think you can police my body. You know, like they're just freaking out.

Starting point is 02:32:02 And it's like, it's interesting. It's almost, you know what it is, because you know. It's a similar reaction from women. when they get called out on being immodest

Starting point is 02:32:10 to what you get from men when you tell them to not touch their penis. Yeah. I posted an article called on my substack, the lie we've been told about masturbation. Men really don't like you when you tell them that,

Starting point is 02:32:22 and you're not even demanding it because I'm not in a place to demand it. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Maybe you could not self-abuse. Men get really angry with you. They do. And it's a similar reaction

Starting point is 02:32:33 from women who are dressing immodestly. And I don't think the anger would be there unless they knew that what they were doing was wrong to begin with, whether it would be dressing immodestly or touching their willy. Yeah, the touching the Willie thing

Starting point is 02:32:46 is the one that blows secular people's minds when they're asked like, you're Catholic, what is that? What kind of rules do you have to follow? And every once in a while, a dude will be like, you guys aren't allowed and I'd be like, no, that just explodes their brain.

Starting point is 02:32:59 Like, how could you literally live? And I'm like, the fact that you can't imagine a world where you don't do that says to me, that's very bad and negative. If you can't stop something or you can't imagine life without it, how, what is it and why would you need it?

Starting point is 02:33:17 You know, like, it's so gross. It's an adult pacifier. Yeah. It's a way to restore emotional equilibrium, my emotional equilibrium. I feel, I feel like rattled or anxious. And so I have the pacifier

Starting point is 02:33:31 that makes me feel safe again. Right. It's just, it's disordered. Okay, Willys, I had something I wanted to ask you about so hard. Oh, here's what I wanted to ask you about. Now, you've been, you don't drink alcohol. You don't smoke marijuana or tobacco. How long have you been free and like chosen to live that lifestyle now, roughly?

Starting point is 02:33:54 Since I was 14 years old. That's remarkable. All right. I love having a whiskey and don't, I hope I'll never stop. My question, though, is there seems to be this big push for sobriety. And of course, I'm old for. If people are abusing alcohol, they shouldn't. It's a sin.

Starting point is 02:34:08 Aquinas refers to anyone who gets drunk even once as a drunkard. Really? Well, I'd have to go back and to be particular, but he talks about someone who drinks too much alcohol as a drunkard. We say drunkard, but we just mean the most abased. Yeah, yeah. But I wonder, do you think all these people who are like, I'm sober, are all getting high? Maybe. I think, yeah.

Starting point is 02:34:32 California sober? Is that what it's called? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it really? Is it a wood? Yeah, that's a real thing. California sober would be someone who's totally sober, but they probably do mushrooms and weed.

Starting point is 02:34:43 Okay. They do the, like, holistic, like, or the non-addictive or whatever. Marijuana is addictive, one million, trillion, bajillion percent. Okay. I don't know that mushrooms are, but maybe. That's California sober. Okay. There you go.

Starting point is 02:34:57 I didn't know there was a word for it. There's a word. There's California sleeves. That's when you only have tattoos on your hands and your throat, but you wear a long, sleeve or a jacket and it looks like you're as tattooed as I am. Huh. So that's California sleeves. California has a lot of insults based on it, which sucks because there's so many cool

Starting point is 02:35:15 people from California, but so many other people have done lame things to kind of like, you know, put them on the burner. All right. So just like, let's say that's true, this California sobriety thing. Yeah, yeah. Like celebrate the sobriety out loud, but they're also doing weed. It's like, well, I mean, okay. Sure.

Starting point is 02:35:31 But I think this brings me to another thought. Someone said to me recently that they think the new hipster thing to do, and I fully disagree with this, right? They said the new hipster thing is going to be getting off social media altogether. And the reason I don't think that, I think that is cool. Yeah. I don't think we'll do it because I think we're too narcissistic to do it. Like, I'll do it, but I have to be able to tell everybody that I'm doing it constantly. So I'll do that for social.

Starting point is 02:35:57 Ah, I can't do it through. So that's why it'll never happen. I think it will happen. So there'll be, I think, a small, quiet. minority of people who choose to get out of the filth. Yeah. But I think for most of us, we want to proclaim that we've gotten out of the filth. I think that we're going to, I think we're going to pair down social media and it'll

Starting point is 02:36:17 become like a, though I think the way we use it is going to change. I think AI is going to break it. Tell me. I think that as, I think that we're going to get to a point where nothing is, things don't feel real enough. like songs not made by people who seem like they're made by people, fake influencers, clips that aren't real, news that isn't real. Like, so much is going to be bad that we're going to return to analog on purpose.

Starting point is 02:36:48 And analog is kind of going to be the place where we live. What is analog? Analog is like physical things. Like DVDs again. DVDs are analog. Videotapes might come back. Videotapes, that kind of thing. Oh.

Starting point is 02:37:00 Yeah. So I think that, um, Yeah, we're going to go in that direction. I think that as technology gets better, it's going to be like war. War is crazy. I know how to explain this better than the thought I'm trying to explain to you. So there's modern war is weird. We don't often get to see two equal countries fight each other.

Starting point is 02:37:21 In war, we call this a peer-to-peer engagement, right? Incredibly rare in our modern times because of all the nukes we have. Ukraine and Russia begin to fight a peer-to-peer engagement. two first world armies facing off. Now, everyone kind of is very interested in how this is going to go. And we all kind of thought people who like military strategy and are very into it, like, oh, okay, so we're going to see how all these new weapon systems work and stuff. Well, but what happened was this. The technology becomes so good and so easily used by people who don't have a ton of training that some guy with hardly any training can fire a $60,000 missile and kill a guy,

Starting point is 02:38:03 that takes nine years to train in his $1 trillion jet. So you can no longer use him in this theater of war. He needs to do a different job. You can't lose him to some farmer who graduated seventh grade and didn't go to any more school.

Starting point is 02:38:18 You just can't do that. So the missiles and all this stuff gets so good that now we see what's going on in Ukraine and Russia is that they're just fighting World War I. They just have rifles and artillery and they're in trenches shooting each other because technology got so good that they could no longer leverage the advantages of it, and it forced them to meet each other in the year 1915.

Starting point is 02:38:44 That's why that war looks like it does. That's why four years in, nothing's happened. Because they're just in the trenches shooting each other, 1920 style. I think the internet is going to push us to a place socially where the missiles are too good, and we're just in the trenches with each other. Because... The missiles mean what in this? The missiles mean like just content in general.

Starting point is 02:39:07 We won't be able to know what's real and what isn't. We won't be able to see what people actually make and what they don't make. We won't know what art you really made and what art is made by a computer, what videos. We won't know what is us and what isn't us. What is worth liking and what isn't worth liking. And it's going to force us into a situation where we have to go back to the trenches, which is analog. We're going to, streaming is going to die

Starting point is 02:39:32 because pirating will get too easy. People are going to go back to pirating shows and stealing. And it's just going to get so crazy that companies are like, what if the next big thing is I make another DVD player and I start selling DVDs again? And then the nostalgia hits and everyone loves it and we go back.

Starting point is 02:39:48 Like, I truly think that we're going to head in that direction. Okay. I want to get on board with you, but I have some questions. What do you mean streaming is going to die? I mean, streaming is the easiest way to get my message out right now. Why would that die?

Starting point is 02:39:59 What we're doing won't. What we're doing is going to stay, but like major Hollywood stuff, like movies and TV shows. Sorry, when you say streaming, I thought you meant to YouTube. I'm talking about Netflix, Hulu, Xbox, Game Pass. I'm talking about like our mainstream entertainment, the things that were the most passionate about, the, like, the cultural moments, the movies we all watch together, the games we all experience, the me, you know, it's going to go back to a, A type of thing where we're all experiencing it together. I was thinking about how... I hope that's true.

Starting point is 02:40:35 I just don't know why it must be the case. I think that we're fatigued. You can only... You know what I was thinking about? Like, what was the last TV show where everyone was in on it? And it lasted. This is Matt Walsh's argument about why culture is dead because we're all consuming our isolated little entertainments

Starting point is 02:40:57 that nobody else is... We're not participating in a while. wider. I was thinking about it like there, I watched the, uh, a show, what show did I watch? Anyway, it doesn't matter. Alone. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I watched it and it was so good and everyone was talking about it. And then it was just gone. Because we all watched it once. It just came out. We all watch it and it was just, it's in the ether. It's just gone forever. And I was thinking about it like weird. And I was thinking about Seinfeld and how much I love Seinfeld and what an important part of my whole life it was, weirdly. And I was thinking about that and I was like,

Starting point is 02:41:24 well, because it, if it's on for nine years, they're playing the reruns all nine. All nine many years. Anytime you turn on the TV, you might be seeing a Seinfeld episode. And they're good, so you let them, so you absorbed a ton of it. You didn't just watch it once and put it away forever. They, they're your friends. They're in your living room with you all the time. And you're like, they're a part of your every day. They're kind of like a weird, like, if things get scary over here, I come back, Seinfeld's always there. Like, we don't have that anymore. We don't have, they're always there. Yeah. Isn't that? I feel like maybe I might be wrong because I'm old and don't watch a lot of television the way I used to, but maybe the office or what was the last?

Starting point is 02:42:04 The office is 20 years ago. I know, but that's why I said I don't know if I'm right. So has there been something since then? I think the office was the last one. And by since then, I don't mean something that continued through that period. I mean something that's begun afterwards. That is huge and we all love and it is, no, I can't think of anything. I think maybe always sunny in Philadelphia might be. See, that began in the office. In the time, yeah. They filmed that on a Rebel T2I, their first episode.

Starting point is 02:42:33 That's so crazy. That's a camera that's like wildly worse than the ones in your studio. Yeah, it's like an old school camera. Yeah. I mean, I hope you, I think I hope you're right. I, what do you think about this? I don't know.

Starting point is 02:42:49 That's the thing is where it's like, I remember loving, do you, I have been watching a few, I watched a few videos recently. one in particular, and I said to the guy whose company it was, I said, this is incredible, like really funny. Where did you find this actor? And they went, oh, that whole thing was AI. I felt so stupid. I thought it's so stupid. It didn't make it any less funny. I mean, there was clearly a lot of work that went into it. It wasn't just like give me a little video about this. I mean, they, you know. Yeah, yeah. But I felt stupid and it made me wonder if we're going to go back to network television. I just feel like network television because I can trust this group is going to put out as opposed to the myriads of AI slope. I'm with you.

Starting point is 02:43:36 I genuinely think we're going to move in that direction or what's going to happen is everyone's going to keep doing their thing, but someone is going to be like, well, we're going to do it. And then it's going to, you know, there's going to be a group of people. But I do think we're going back to analog. There are parent groups who are like, we're not going on selfie. phones, we're getting landlines again. Okay, but here's why, here's the argument against that point. Let's hear it.

Starting point is 02:44:00 I would say for about 10 years now, people have been trying to put out the perfect dumb phone. And everyone gets super excited about it, but no one really wants one. I mean, I've had like three or four. And I used them successfully for a while. But then I also would like my QR code for like Delta or like my bank app. Yeah. So after like 10 years of thinking and telling myself, now, to be fair, I know people and you know people who live dumb phones and they're probably better off for it and good for them. I just, it's not going to

Starting point is 02:44:30 catch on. The dumb phone thing won't, I don't think it'll ever catch on. And I, that's my argument against what you're saying is that even though I like the idea of things going analog and people no longer being into streaming, it's just way too convenient for it to go away. I think stuff on the, I think that stuff on the phone, we're just going to change our relationship where people are more interested in like experiences. So they'll just be like, yeah, my phone is like not a serious thing, you know, and I'm going to go watch a movie over here. I think the serious thing will always be the thing that gives me the most immediate pleasure. Yeah? Yeah. So that's why I don't see people getting off social media because they want a telegraph that they're so cool. And they can't do that

Starting point is 02:45:13 except through something like social media. I feel like one of the reasons the church is growing so much right now. It's because there are a lot of people who don't just want the thing that gets them most pleasure. They really do want the good thing. I think enough people are interested in it, and this new generation is having babies. Are they? Our generation really messed it up. Not you. You crushed it. Thanks, man. Let's go, dog. You really held it down for us. I was messing up, and you were just on those battlefields making it happen, raising those kids. Now I'm trying to catch up. But are you saying Gen Alpha? Who's... I mean, they might be like that. be in alpha.

Starting point is 02:45:49 Yeah. No, not Alfa. I know a lot of Gen Z guys who complain about not finding a woman. But a lot, but the birth rates are up. Are there? Like the math is there.

Starting point is 02:45:58 I mean, at least, I guess I know people online who complain, but like my, I know a lot of real life people who are just married, like getting married and having, everyone's having babies. I mean,

Starting point is 02:46:09 me and my wife are always blown away. Like, so many of our friends are having kids. Like, people who I never thought in a million years would have kids I'm friends with. They're like, I think I want to be a father. Me and my wife are talking about, and I'm like, yo, awesome.

Starting point is 02:46:22 So we're moving into this like, kids are becoming a thing that people are like, oh, I actually want a family. I realize I'm in my 30s and I'm going to be miserable. I need to do something real. And then maybe all of these kids that people are having and this family dynamic they're going to build is going to bring them to a place where they're like, hey, I have a family. I just want to turn on the TV and not worry that my kids are going to see something crazy.

Starting point is 02:46:46 Yeah. Like, because that, that is kind of what made TV popular in the first place, right? Is that you could just turn it on and know for a fact that you're, you were protected in some way. That's really interesting. That's really fascinating. Yeah. I think, yeah, being a parent immediately makes you a better person. You're all of a sudden concerned about what the local park is like and the safety of the streets and what's on television.

Starting point is 02:47:07 Before that, you're like, whatever. Like, it's not my problem. You can care less. And I remember being on a, this is what scares me about taking my kids on trips because the, the, the, the, people watch on airplanes and the filth that disgusting airlines, for all their good, I'm sure they do a lot of good, but, you know, to allow that kind of pornography and violence on televisions is just Delta Airlines saying, we hate your children. Yeah. And are fine with your children being exposed to porn. They are fine with it. Yeah. It is, it is genuinely because they're so, they're just, everything is catered towards single people in their 30s. Stupid adults, which is why even comic books are pornographic today. It's crazy. And I love times. Because they're not made for kids anymore. I would. I will say absolute Batman is pretty good. Is it? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:47:50 Is that a new one though? Yeah, it's new. But the, yeah, comic books are crazy. I do love comics. But yeah, the whole, it's everything is for like, because all these millennials, so, so, so many of us, me included, I did this at one point. We got into our 30s and we just had arrested development. And we're just like losers. Our generation's full of like Disney adults and like weirdos with like joke tattoos who are like,

Starting point is 02:48:16 in their 30s, living their childhood dreams about having Ninja Turtle toys and stuff. Like, everyone has arrested development. Like, so many single dudes in their late 30s that I'm, and women too, that I'm like, you know, it's not cool that you're like single and trying to hook up with, like, you're a loser, that you're a burnout. You made it to your late 30s and all you do is play video games and try to hook up. Like, you, this sucks, bro. And, like, I've been getting to the point where I'm telling my friends.

Starting point is 02:48:44 And honestly, they've been taking it. really well. Like, people are like, how do you say it to them? In a way that they know you love them and you're not just mocking them. Yeah, I don't wait till my friend goes, bro, going on a surf trip and I'm like, must be nice, I'm actually living a real life.

Starting point is 02:49:01 You know, I don't do any, that would suck. But when my friends are like, oh, dude, I'm so happy for you, you're having a kid and I'm like, it's the most rewarding thing that I've ever experienced in my life. I know you love surfing and drinking and whatever you're up to, dog, but you got to get it together.

Starting point is 02:49:16 bro. It's so good. I'm telling you what you're doing sucks. And then they're like receptive. Like, yeah, I know. I know. I'm, I got to get, I got to do X and Y, you know. So I've been like really mask off just like it's, you're running out of time. Especially like my friends in our 30s. It's like you have no time. Dog, get on it. Like you're, it's going to, it's going to the same way that I was 21 and I blinked and then I was 33. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's so dangerous. And I so, so, so badly want my friends to, dude, when you are single for like literally 15 years and everyone's telling you to do self-care and everyone's telling you to do whatever you want and no one's telling you sleeping around is bad and everyone's telling you that you don't need a career and you don't have to justify your existence and you don't owe anyone anything. And you're just nebulously kind of like, cool, I just exist and I feel pleasure and this is it. I'm doing it.

Starting point is 02:50:14 fun. Like, it's so hard to imagine how fulfilling and beautiful and good it feels to, like, put in real work and have a family. Yeah, it's actually, Father Jason Shron pointed this out recently. It's actually humiliating for man to live without purpose. Yes. You know, ducks swim and other things, fly birds, preference, you know, animals have their purpose. Squirrels fly too. You're right. In Australia, they can. Um, the point is, it's, it's humiliating for man to live without a purpose. Especially because we're intellectual beings and to pretend that we don't. Yeah, it's... I read something really interesting about how our culture in America doesn't have an on-ramp into manhood.

Starting point is 02:50:57 We used to kind of have, like, the church and the Eagle Scouts or just, like, a family tradition or a cultural German or French or Dutch. You know, like, we used to have, like, a very cultural thing. And now we're kind of just like this loose amalgamation of just like, we're just a bunch of of people here, whatever, and like becoming a man isn't a thing. And they were talking about how we have all these young men, especially millennials and stuff, who have this arrested development, and they're just kind of wandering around waiting for someone to give them permission to occupy their own life. Men waiting for permission to occupy their own life. And when you hear it that way,

Starting point is 02:51:39 doesn't it just make, you're like, oh, yeah. It really resonates, too. Yeah, because, You're just like, you're just kind of living for, you're not living for anything. And you're kind of waiting for someone to tell you like, and now you can start. Hey, just so you know, you have permission. You're a grown man. Get out there and do, you know, you're kind of just like, well, everyone says it's cool if I just work my dead end job and don't do anything. So I'll just do that. What?

Starting point is 02:52:06 I remember having these thoughts and I'm sure it's being part of like sci-fi movies, the idea of the pleasure machine. Yeah. You know, where it's like if you can hook yourself up to a pleasure machine and, you know, would you do it? And that's essentially what the computer and pornography are, I suppose. And you think about all the evils that would result from such a thing. And maybe that's where we're at. We're getting close. Yeah, the Star Trek, the, like, hollow deck or whatever.

Starting point is 02:52:33 I don't know. Oh, yeah, they have like a room where you can make a hologram and you can interact with it physically. Okay. So you could just, like, Matrix style, like, most beautiful woman, I can imagine. I see. And then she's in love with you. Yeah. And you're like, if you could do that, would you?

Starting point is 02:52:49 Yeah. And what would that do to you over time? Yeah. I think the problem is we would all go, no, but we all, not we all, I'm being hyperbolic, but we all would. It's the same reason where if you have explained social media to yourself five minutes before you got on it, would you? You'd like, no.

Starting point is 02:53:06 And you may have meant that. But the base of you is like, but it's here. Yeah. And it's an idiot. So yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man

Starting point is 02:53:15 Tough tough I definitely wouldn't go into the pleasure machine I don't trust myself Even as a secular person I don't think I would have done it I would be scared I would hope not Is too much

Starting point is 02:53:26 Which is probably why I saved myself From hard drugs A thousand percent would have A thousand percent would of If it was immediately accessible Like I think the reason I never did heroin Or something is no one was offering it And I was afraid it would kill me

Starting point is 02:53:39 Yeah It would have a very immediate real effect on me in the way that the pleasure machine might not. And so therefore, if it's right there, if it's in my pocket, if it's, then maybe I'll do that. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Starting point is 02:53:52 I think I would be scared. That's such an interesting thing. I guess we're getting close. Which is why I think that embracing, I say this with great trepidation, embracing our suffering is the only way out of this hell. Yeah. Like the very particular suffering you have, the very particular awkward, I wish it weren't this way.

Starting point is 02:54:15 I never wanted it to be this way. Why did my life end up like this way? That way. The embracing of that, I think, is the only way out of this pleasure machine hell. I agree. And I hate it so much. I don't want to do it. It's the worst answer.

Starting point is 02:54:33 It's again, it's the, are you sure I can't just cut my nose off? Like, come on. This is so hard. Just on my whole life. I just have to struggle and suffer. Yes. No, me, like, yeah. And it's so, it's difficult.

Starting point is 02:54:46 Sainthood is hard. Yeah. It's so funny, like, selling it to someone as compared to, like, the immediacy of anything else you can do. Because suffering in the abstract is, like, love in the abstract. It's too easy to consent to, but love in the particular, you know. Yeah. Because, you know, before you're married, you have all these ideas, like, yourself, you got

Starting point is 02:55:09 married recently of like the kind of woman you might or might not marry. And then you marry someone and she's a specific particular individual, particular virtues and particular flaws, just like yourself. And then the temptation, I think very often is the devil comes in. He doesn't even have to do anything radical. He just has to tempt you to imagine another life so you don't live the one you're currently in. Yes. So instead of tending to the woman in front of me, I imagine what it's like to have a wife or a husband who's different and has no edges or blemishes or weirdness or particularities to them. They're just sort of a fuzzy thing that would finally make me happy.

Starting point is 02:55:51 And then I spend my whole days, and this is true of the unmarried, who just thinks I hate that my life became like this. Right. I'm 48 and I never got married and it doesn't look like I ever will. And even if I did, I've got so many health issues that I'm not sure how long I'm going to be here for, right? And so like to find yourself, sorry, I'm going on a rant here, but to find yourself in that place. And then to imagine a life that could have been, but that isn't.

Starting point is 02:56:15 Yeah. And so then there's the choice. I've got to, I can choose between the life that isn't, the woman who I actually am not with because they don't exist or the man I wish I was with but doesn't exist or whatever. And this life I'm being called to live. Right. Which is a lot harder because it's particular and the suffering's particular. Does any of that make sense? It makes perfect sense.

Starting point is 02:56:36 Yeah. I don't, yeah. It's not, it's just the imagination, the war of the imagination. It's so interesting to the reverse. When someone is doing something they know they shouldn't do, how wildly they defend not ever even entertaining the other side. Okay. You know, so like you talk to someone about the evil of pornography and they just like,

Starting point is 02:57:01 or like, for instance, let's just say I talk to, happened to me in real life. I was talking to a woman about my, she was like, and you think that women shouldn't be promiscuous. And I was like, yeah, as a cat, like I don't think women should be, I don't think anyone should be promiscuous. I was like, I'm really struggling with if I should swim with my shirt on or not. That's where I'm at in my life. Like, and that's a real thing. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out modesty and swimming. Well, for you, maybe you should wear a shirt. For me, it helps people in their chastity. They're like, they come up to me and they whisper, thank you. I find it really offensive actually. Oh man. I just imagine like one day a year from now I'm going to go visit you and

Starting point is 02:57:43 you're at the beach and you take your shirt off and you're going to have the craziest back piece that you've been hiding for me this whole time. Back piece? Yeah just your whole back is covered in one tattoo. Oh, sunny. Just our lady of Guadalupe or like thug life or something crazy. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just waiting for that. Yeah. But yeah, people defend. So yada, yada, yada. You don't think they should be promiscuous. And then she said, so do you think I have a bad life? She was like in her 40s and very promiscuous. And I said, it's not my place to say if your life is bad or not, but I think it could be more fulfilling. I think you could be doing better things. And I do think that you'd be a more happy, fulfilled person if you weren't, if you were married and had kids and

Starting point is 02:58:22 whatever. And she, instead of just saying like, oh, okay, well, thank you for sharing your opinion. You know, of course she's mad because usually these people are when they talk to you about your opinions, which is so whatever, but she, the way she defended herself, like, actually, my life is better than you could ever imagine. And I'm more fulfilled and happy. And I have, I'm so close to so many people. If I had kids, I wouldn't have been there for the friends I, you know, and she begins to really lay her case out why the grass will never be greener and never could be greener and never would be greener. You're insane for even imagining the possibility of another life. And it's like, how funny that, you know, in my good moments, I'm so full of love and like, you know, and, uh,

Starting point is 02:59:10 and I'm sure of myself and of, of the church and my family and I'm so in love. And then to see her, like, fighting against it, like, no, never. And then for me to be like in my most base, weakest, embarrassing, pathetic moments, like, what if I just was, what if everyone was gone and it was just me. Or what if, what if, like, my family,

Starting point is 02:59:35 like, left me or like, you know, you just have those crazy, yeah. What if it was different, you know? Your current circumstance.

Starting point is 02:59:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just any man, anyone who's doing well or doing the right thing, you're like, what, how much easier would it be? You know,

Starting point is 02:59:50 you kind of imagine it. A hundred percent. And, and of course, you think to yourself, God forgive me, you know, I hate that.

Starting point is 02:59:56 Or you catch yourself or whatever, but for her to be doing the reverse. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. Now, but in a way, I wouldn't trust a man who's been married for more than five minutes, who doesn't on some level understand the temptation to destroy everything and go and try to find Eden here. Yeah. What I respect more is when I guys like, of course, I bet I'm going to choose not to do that by God's grace,

Starting point is 03:00:22 because I know that that will lead to death. That reminds me, I think in the proverbs, there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end is death. That's really good. Yeah, it is. So it's, yeah, again, I've said this, which Jordan Peterson talks about, he's like, you know, when someone says, how could you get addicted to drugs? He's like, what are you talking about? The interesting question is, why isn't everybody doing drugs all the time? Yes. That's what's interesting. Yeah. Because there's an answer to that. And that's really curious. Likewise, like, why would a man remain faithful to his wife? Why would a man strive to be free of pornography? Right. That's the interesting question. Why would anyone ever not, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also like, hey, if the task you're asked of makes you, you have that visceral reaction, but you can't think of a reason not like, I guess there are people who trot out scientific stuff.

Starting point is 03:01:17 A lot of it's been debunked. Look what? Like, if you don't masturbate, you'll get cancer. Yeah, no, that's rubbish. Yeah. Yeah. We love to believe it, though. I, yeah.

Starting point is 03:01:27 It's like pot's good for you. Right. You know? It's like that. Like, yeah. It's like the wine is good. good for your heart. You're like, all right, I think we all really want to believe this, but you find yourself desperately wanting to believe something like that?

Starting point is 03:01:40 Women trot that one out to me. What's that? I get in confrontations about doctrine all the time, funny enough, because I'm in public and I'm engaging with secular people, and they're engaged, they know who I am and they're engaging with me. But the debates I almost always have are with women. Men are almost always like, if they don't agree with me doctrinally, they just let it go. Okay. Or they'll be like, what do you think about this? and I'll go, they'll say, I'm gay, do you hate me? And I say, no. And they go, do you think I should get married?

Starting point is 03:02:05 And I go, well, no, I don't. But I don't think you shouldn't be happy. And I'm perfectly happy to be nice to you and the man you're with. I want good things for you. Yes. And they'll be like, oh, okay, sure. You know, but I have these conversations as women and they'll be like really intense and mean about it. There's like something going on.

Starting point is 03:02:22 I wonder if it's because you look like you'd be an ally. That's what it is probably. And I used to be. You're a traitor to the cause. I used to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what really gets them is that you used to be.

Starting point is 03:02:35 You used to be. And also, I am attractive to those types of women. Okay. So I think they're also, like, annoyed. Yeah. That I've, like, stolen the look, you know? Uh-huh. And then I went back to Catholic.

Starting point is 03:02:47 They're like, what? You're wearing the enemy's outfit. Yeah. They're wearing our outfit. Yeah, yeah. You're like our guy, but you're over there. What? Don't they hate you for looking like that?

Starting point is 03:02:56 And I go, no, they're actually nicer to me than you. And they go, no, they're not. Which is the craziest thing. I have a bit about this where I used to tell people like, oh, you have face tattoos. That's crazy. I go, I used to be in a gang and people go, no. And I'd be like, oh, so you know me. Like, that's what happens.

Starting point is 03:03:12 Women will, I'll get into an argument about faith or like what I believe and I'll say something and they'll go, no. Or I'll tell them how it is. They'll be like, oh. And so, like, I'll tell the story about my conversion and be like, in like people through rocks through my window and like physically attacked me. and threatened to hurt my mom. And they were just insane

Starting point is 03:03:33 when I converted to Christianity like atheists and leftists did this to me. And then the person I'm telling will look at me and go, that didn't happen. You go. All right.

Starting point is 03:03:43 What do I do with this? Oh, okay. I thought I guess I dreamed that. Yeah. My bad. And it's also so funny because if it was the reverse to leave Catholicism

Starting point is 03:03:55 and go to them. That except every story you had about the priest yelled at you. Yeah, yeah. But also would be like, that's when you question their motives because they're over here like, oh, I can just drink and have sex and do whatever I want.

Starting point is 03:04:10 Awesome. No more rules. No praying. Sundays are mine. I'm me. Self care all the time. Women? No, sure.

Starting point is 03:04:19 No confession. If I do something bad, I just keep it to myself. Sick. Like, that's a guy. It's up to something. It makes people so mad when you go from doing, anything to can't even imagine boobs will be in trouble if imagines boobs too much. You know what I mean? Like that's that blows their minds because what am I getting? What did I get from giving all that up?

Starting point is 03:04:45 Like it makes them crazy. Genuinely. This reminds we're getting back to resent him all again. That reminds you of that line from, it was on the Big Bang theory, which I'm not recommending people watch, but it was what's his name said to Sheldon, his roommate? So Sheldon said to him something, okay, let's back up. This guy wanted to, I think, cheat on his girlfriend. Okay. And he was trying to justify it. And then Sheldon said to him, well, you know, Nietzsche said that morality was relative or something like that.

Starting point is 03:05:15 Yeah, yeah. And he's like, huh, thank you. Of course, he also died of syphilis or something. That's a really good one. Yeah. Nice. And Roussef. Dude, the Big Bang Theory.

Starting point is 03:05:27 forgot that show because they said that might be the show that started after that was the last cultural moment. Yeah. That was a huge one. That started within the office time frame though still, didn't it? Maybe. It went on for a long time. I've seen a lot of it. There's other movies. There's other shows that you're like, okay, I appreciate that you're trying to get off the ground, like that, what was that police show with Andy Sandberg or? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Brooklyn, something. Like, I appreciate what you're trying to do. All right, so Big Bang Theory stopped in 2019. Whoa.

Starting point is 03:06:00 That feels like it happened sooner than it did. But it started, when did it? I asked when it started and it said 13.8 billion years ago. No, I'm talking about the show. The more important thing, the show. Yeah, so 2007. So that was about the same time as the office. You're right.

Starting point is 03:06:18 The office started before then. It just ran long. The American office started like 2004, I want to say. Let's see, five, 2005, yeah. The American office. Yeah. The Super Bowl. Well, did you watch the English one? It's filthy, unfortunately.

Starting point is 03:06:30 I watched a little bit of it, yeah. I mean, Ricky Jervais is one of the funniest man who's ever existed. Without a doubt, but it's filthy, and I don't recommend people watching it. I can't do, like, sometimes British humor is just a little too, too, like, British, I guess. Like, you guys are like, hey, everyone, could you guys be less British about it? Come on. Yeah, let's see, let's, okay, this is the last thing we're going to look up, and I promise we can stop. Okay.

Starting point is 03:06:55 What was, I don't know, what do we talk? Computer. You want to look something up? I want to know about a sitcom that worked. See, I guess after the office, see, this was during the office was Stranger Things. The first season was excellent. The last one was literally gay. Really? I didn't watch it either.

Starting point is 03:07:13 But everyone told me it was just pushing this. Yeah, my brother told me it was weird and he's usually not even not worried about that. Please. No, totally. I know. I saw that. I was like, dude, how gay did you get that gay people were like, why? Turning against you. Why is this gay?

Starting point is 03:07:27 Okay. What has been the biggest sitcom since the office ended? It's going to be the Big Bang. The Big Bang Theory. Yeah. Well done. And then it said it followed closely by Modern Family, which was trash. Young Sheldon is the third one.

Starting point is 03:07:46 Is it really? I don't know. I'm going to say. What is Schitt's Creek? Is that a thing? Yeah, yeah, it's a thing. Ted Lassow was filled with filth and no one should watch it. Didn't watch it?

Starting point is 03:07:54 Crap. That was a soccer movie. Is that the filth your reference? Good, but then Satan decided to write it. And it was just filled with debauchery, and it was shameful. Soccer is what he's referencing by the way. Yeah, not the sex. Yeah, sorry.

Starting point is 03:08:07 Oh, there is, actually? Soccer. No, it's filled with sex. It was disgusting. Wild. I stopped immediately. Oh, you know what? The best show has been since then?

Starting point is 03:08:15 Let's hear it. Well, there's two shows. This is the best show ever made in my estimation. Oh, my God. Four-part series on Netflix called Adolescence. Please go and watch it. Adolescence. I beg you to watch it.

Starting point is 03:08:24 Cool. I've been watching Young Justice. All right, so that's one. It's a cartoon about the Teen Titans. Is it good? Yeah, that's great. It's old. It's not old, though.

Starting point is 03:08:33 Oh, you'll love. Okay, so this movie I just said, adolescence? Adolescence. It's a four-part British psychological drama where each show is filmed with one continuous take. The acting is superb. It's incredibly immersive. It's quite, it's quite, now, look, watching at home, you look into this yourself before you watch it. Because it deals with very serious themes.

Starting point is 03:08:57 there's no explicit thing trying to make you sexually aroused ever, which is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's honest about the human condition. Please watch it. Okay, I will. It's excellent. Yeah, yeah, me and my wife always. So that was one, but then the other, what else is being good that's come out ever?

Starting point is 03:09:14 I don't know. I like that. Did you ever watch the nuclear meltdown in- Mormon housewives? Oh, oh, Chernobyl. Chernobyl was excellent. Same difference, though. Similar theme.

Starting point is 03:09:27 Meltdown. O.J. Simpson, that one they, I think there was in Hulu back in the day. That was good. I didn't watch the OJ Simpson thing. Dude, I don't really watch that much. I watch a little anime here and there. I want to, I'd be cool. I'd be fine liking it. You know how you just can't make yourself like what you wish you could like? Genuinely. I tried to want one, one punch man. I thought that's kind of fun. I just couldn't keep caring. Yeah, you might have aged out. You have to like kind of, it has to tickle your nostalgia a little bit. Okay, but this is bananas though, right? Based on audience ratings. Okay, stream popularity.

Starting point is 03:09:59 The most popular, this, I'm just repeating what I just said, but I can't believe that this is it, is the Big Bang Theory, which doesn't count because it started during the office, like two years after. Modern family doesn't count. Middle-aged women are into it. Third sexist thing I've said today. Schitt's Creek never watched it. That's got that one actor who did punked. What was his name?

Starting point is 03:10:23 Okay, cool. I just love having. So stupid, Abbott Elementary, no idea. Brooklyn 9-9, like none of these are that good. Brooklyn 9-9 is funny for sure. It's quick-paced, but even the quick pace gets too much for me. I don't. I feel like it's too sarcastic constantly.

Starting point is 03:10:39 Anyway, now I'm just telling you what I find annoying, which is different to, has there been a culturally kind of unifying sitcom? That was the question. Yeah. And there really hasn't been, I mean, unless you think it's one of them. When you really think about it, when we were. all participating in culture together. Oh, the Daytona 500 is all over the news or, or we're all know about Seinfeld. Yeah, Simpsons, friends. Even if you're not a huge fan, you, you always have the

Starting point is 03:11:09 fact that Seinfeld is in your life as, as a thing in common with other people. Yeah, yeah, that we can, like you and I could reference it, not even just assuming that the two of us know about it. Culture was happening to all of us all the time. Now, you and I are sitting here being, like, these are the shows I like, and I'm like, I don't know what those are. And you're like, these are the shows I like. And we live in different worlds. We're not having a cultural moment together. Our only cultural moment is the church. And the fact that we're both millennial men, I suppose. And we like mental, we like a lot of the same thing. But you know what I'm saying? Like, if we didn't know each other, there's like that, I want that back so badly. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:11:47 This like cultural, it's not even glue because it doesn't actually hold you together, but it's sort of like the spackle on top of culture. That's a great. analogy. It sort of like gets us like we're all different shaped rocks or whatever in this wall, but you just spackle it over and we're all like, yeah, but this is what gets us all here. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And we don't have that anymore. And I feel it. I feel it when I'm out in the world. I don't like it. I want to be back to whatever that was. I'm hoping when I go back to Utah, I'm feeling a little Utah on. You excited about that? Oh, dude, I'm so excited. I love Utah so much. I love people from Utah. It's beautiful. Utah's beautiful. I love the country.

Starting point is 03:12:25 I love no rules. I love just having to have my guns, not having to worry about licenses or like cops or like, dude, North Carolina, they're like, you have to have a license, to have your gun here. And like every other building is like, not allowed to have it.

Starting point is 03:12:39 And I'm just like, I'm shocked to see that the firing range was still a method of execution. You be shot to death. In Utah. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It will shoot you.

Starting point is 03:12:48 We will. Which is, we did it in 2018. You end up the same amount of dead as the injection, but it just seems way more barbaric. It's not a firing squad is what I meant to say. You know what's so funny. I genuinely for real, when I had a leftist podcast, one of my biggest debates I ever got in was that I unironically think the firing squad is more humane by far than lethal injection.

Starting point is 03:13:13 And so many people, because Utah killed someone by firing squad in 2018, this is when I had my show. Yeah. And it was a big thing. And people were so mad. And I was like, why are we mad about this? Why do you think it's more human? I'm not a pro-death penalty guy, but if you're going to do it,

Starting point is 03:13:28 that's the way to do it. Because it's, firstly, it's dignified. Secondly, you don't know, no one knows who killed the person because there's, I think, that five people fire and three of the rounds are fake. Can't they mimic that with the lethal injection?

Starting point is 03:13:45 They could have several buttons on a wall that everyone presses and only one work. I suppose they could, but they don't. They usually have a guy who travels around and just kills everybody. They did a documentary about a dude from the 90s who did that. And they didn't know who would be willing to do it in this like random prison. I'll do it.

Starting point is 03:14:03 Yeah, literally. But he wasn't creepy about it. He was just kind of like very stoic. Like, well, if it needs to be done, I guess I'll do it. And he did it. And then the sheriff was like, we don't want to kill. I don't want to be the person who kills the next guy. Do you think you could come back next month?

Starting point is 03:14:18 I'll pay you. And he was like, oh, I guess so. And then someone in like Tennessee called him. And he was like. It starts a website. Oh, I guess I'll drive down. No, that's what happens. He ends up being the guy, and he's just traveling around the country, executing people, pushing the button or pulling the lever or whatever.

Starting point is 03:14:34 It's more dignified work than an abortionist, but it's not. Do you don't promote it. It's executioner is a valid job that you can have in a just society, but we don't even doing that right now. We don't need to, though. So let's maybe not. But, yeah, I don't trust the state. Have you ever seen the Vatican executioner's sword? No.

Starting point is 03:14:56 There was a Vatican executioner for a while. Obviously, people have been put to death for a while. People were up to wild stuff in the medieval times, sentencing them death. He had a sword, an executioner's sword doesn't have a point. The point is usually how you kill someone in war. Slashing people doesn't kill them. It usually inconveniences them. It annoys them.

Starting point is 03:15:13 It just hurts a lot, but it very rarely kills you. And so that's why the Romans are so good at war. The Gladius is a pokey sword. They're not slashing, they're stabbing. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Napoleon very famously was always, anytime like the cavalry would ride by him, he would go, the point, the point, he would always be telling people, stab, don't slash.

Starting point is 03:15:34 Anyway, it doesn't matter. So, the point is, no idea where we are. No idea where we are. I'm losing it. Thanks for being on my show. I love it. I love to lose my train of thought, and then we just end, and this is the most authentic. I also enjoys them, but I love just having conversations like this.

Starting point is 03:15:54 Me too. And I love talking to you. You're a good man. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I love you, brother. It's great to be here. Anything you want to push, sell, promote?

Starting point is 03:16:02 Oh yeah. Come to my tour. So I'm about to have a baby. I'm not on tour for a month. This is going to be after that. So, hello, Shane, from the future. You have a baby. I hope you weren't too cringed out by watching this podcast, probably with your wife.

Starting point is 03:16:15 If you're a person who's not me watching this, I'm on tour. You can find me at Shane Smith, comedy.com or on Instagram at Shea Dozer. That's the only one I use really, or Facebook, I guess, because it's attached. Anyway, I'm on tour. You can come see me. I'm going to be performing live. It's going to be great.

Starting point is 03:16:32 If you're watching this show, I promise you you want to see me live this year. And if you've watched this far, if you've watched this far, especially like, it's a no-brainer. I'm going to blow your socks off. Come out and watch the show, and that's all I have to promote. Sweet. Thanks.

Starting point is 03:16:48 Yeah.

Pints With Aquinas - From Witchcraft to Jesus Christ (Shayne Smith) | Ep. 576

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