Pints With Aquinas - Healing and Constructive Conversation about Roe V. Wade w/ Dr. Gerry Crete

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Support us on Locals, get a TON in return: https://mattfradd.locals.com/support Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd I'll talk with psychotherapist Dr. Gerry Crete about how we can heal after 50 years of the abortion holocaust. Souls and Hearts!: https://www.soulsandhearts.com/ Littanies (Read/Pray along): https://www.soulsandhearts.com/lit Healing after Abortion: https://www.rachelsvineyard.org/ Post-Abortion Healing for Men: https://www.usccb.org/committees/pro-life-activities/hollow-men-male-grief-trauma-following-abortion

All right, we're live. We are live with Jerry Creed, Dr. Jerry Creed. Nice to have you back. Great to be here. Fourth time, I think. It is. This is what happens. If you want to get on my show, we just have to be really good friends.

Like just, it's an excuse to hang out with you. How are you feeling about Roe versus Wade being overturned? Yeah, well, on one hand, I feel very, you know, very relieved. You know, I've been pro-life my whole life. I've strongly believe in the sanctity of life. Um, I have another part of me, if you will, that is kind of sad. You know, I know that for a lot of people, it brings fear. It makes people, you know, there are a lot of people protesting. There are a lot of people that are upset.

And in my mind, it would be so important somehow to reach them, you know, to be able to connect with people and be able to really get at what is that fear and why are we so far apart on this issue that, in my mind, is kind of fundamental. It's life itself and the value of human life and the connection between a mother and child. And we've gotten so far apart from each other. Yeah. It's a great point. Like I speak on pornography a lot and right on the topic.

And I always have to obviously make that distinction between the person suffering, who I want to win over and encourage. And then, you know, the objective reality that pornography is a pathetic, awful dehumanizing thing. And that those who are trying to push that on people, like Pornhub and Co, ought to be mocked and ought to be ashamed of themselves. Same thing if I was talking with somebody

who physically abused his wife. I mean, that's a disgusting thing. It ought to be condemned with the strongest language possible. But if I'm dealing with a man in front of me who's weeping and I learn his story and he tells me that his father used to be abusive to his mother, I'm not going to rage against him

even though I might want to. I'm gonna speak with tenderness, I'm gonna try to get him help and I'm gonna try to get his wife help. And I think something similar here, right? I think we should, in a way, you tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I think we should be in a way, you tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I think we should

be mocking people like Nancy Pelosi. I mean, this is I think one of the reasons we should read Hansel and Gretel to our kids is because they really are witches who want to consume children. Right? Like she wants more babies to die. And I don't know how you could use stronger language to condemn this. Right. But at the same time, I know there are many people who are,

you know, they're hurting from the sexual revolution. They've been raised in this society. They've been fed pornography. They've been told that the fornication on Friends, that old TV show, is very funny, and they're hurting right now, and they're afraid right now. So I love what you're saying there. Like, yeah, I might not come as strongly with you on in terms of Nancy Pelosi.

I'm not making any judgment about her. Honestly, I don't pay attention to her, but I am somehow interested in the people that are just intransigent, like that have such strong beliefs about it. I get, obviously if somebody is in pain or struggling or torn, that just calls, right? That just naturally calls to us. I tend to see people who are extremely, you know, on the pro-choice side of things as strongly believing what they are saying.

You know, they don't, I don't necessarily see them as, they don't see themselves as villains, they see themselves as heroes. And I wanna break that somehow. I wanna be able to break through that. It's no easy task. And I think, you know, really exploring what those issues are in terms of life,

where life begins, really understanding the science behind even a zygote, even what the beauty and amazement in a one cell organism, like just that is profound. And unless we can talk about that, we're just gonna be at war. It's just gonna be the Hatfields and the McCoys. I think what's difficult for pro-lifers though, is we were given the impression that people really were

Open to logic and science and so they would even in the beginning in the 80s or whatever make a scientific argument Which they clearly couldn't win and then we found out it doesn't seem like like I think it's the case that there are many People who aren't open to the truth don't want to know the truth aren't willing to submit to it I think you do. I think you're right about the truth I think that's really fascinating because I think you're right about the truth. I think that's really fascinating because I think that hits all kinds of issues. I think the abusive husband one, not so much,

because I think most people agree that's just a wrong. Maybe that'll change the time, I hope not. But I do think we come from a position that says there is truth to be known. There is truth to be discovered, and we can understand, and we want to figure out what it is. So when I approach the question,

if I was initially looking at, okay, is abortion wrong? When is, is it ever appropriate? At what time, whatever? And so I would be looking at it to understand the truth. But that's not, we live in this postmodern society. That is not what is happening. Their perspective, whether they're fully aware of it or not, is about

I construct the truth based on what I need it to be or how I feel. I mean, this is this is the light bulb just went off in my head there, right? Like either truth is mind independent and we can conform ourselves to that thing, or it isn't. And then then I have to make the like reality conform to me. But you have to at least acknowledge if you're engaging anybody that that is a difference of philosophy. 100%. But if you don't believe in truth, how do I even begin to engage with you? So here's my thought is that I think that most people

aren't aware of the philosophical assumptions that underlie the way they think. So if you get at that and present them with some, with that, you're working with them on that level, there's some possibility that they will start to maybe even at least see what to them is a nonsensical position, which would be ours. And at least now, there's some kind of possibility

of dialogue around that. I mean, I think that hits all sorts of issues, life issues. It hits the whole transgender issue, because either our biological and gender truth is something to discover and know, or is it something we create? It's the same thing, is life is something like I want to have a baby, so I have,

we're having a baby, I'm excited. Versus someone else is like, oh, this isn't a difficult time for me. The being that's present, the unborn child, is the same, has the same ontological reality in either case. But we are in such a subjective mindset that if I don't want it, then it doesn't exist. I think this is what I wanted to draw out from a moment ago, right?

Truth exists, therefore we submit to it. If you don't believe in truth, then the world, reality, must submit to you, right? And since I cannot appeal to truth to get you to change your mind, all is all that's left is power. If I want to make you change and I can't get you to submit to what is the case, all that's left and what's left at my disposal within my arsenal to make you do the thing I think you should do. It seems to me that power. And this is why I think to abuse language is to try to manipulate, right?

So you hear all this talk of reproductive rights Well, that has nothing to do with abortion because the reproduction has already taken place um I'm for reproductive rights. I don't think people should be forced to have sex I think people should choose when they want to have sex. So you're abusing language like when you call abortion health care This is sophistry in the highest degree. This is neither health nor is it care. But again, I think if you don't believe we should submit to objective truth, or you don't think it exists, this is all you're left with. Abuse of language, which is why lying is so evil. We should really try to purify our language.

And I need to do this too, right? From all hyperbole, from all exaggeration. I should try to say things as I see them and as they can, I should have my language conform with reality. But I think to your point, you're saying we can't give up. Like we can't give up on proclaiming what is true and reasoning with people. We can't just say, well, they're all crazy,

therefore we're no longer going to be engaged in this pursuit of truth together. Right. I do think it'd be good to kind of steel man a little bit because I was thinking about this earlier this week is I don't think Jerry, I think you're right that it's usually like a kind of they don't realize that that's their underlying philosophical understanding is that they don't believe in truth. Like people don't walk around saying, yeah, I don't believe in truth. They just kind of live that way.

And I think that, yeah, it's, it's usually people who are kind of. Interacting with the truth in that they kind of guess what the majority thinks. And then just follows along that. And that's kind of their, you know, epistemology. That's how they find the truth is they're just like, you know, and then, you know, everyone kind of does this a little bit as they say, experts think this, you know, well, it's like, it's like, if you look at the demographics, like then, you know, everyone kind of does this a little bit as they say. I think this, you know. Well, it's like it's like if you look at the demographics, like who how you vote is largely dependent on who your neighbors vote, how they vote,

because I think we have this strong desire to be not rejected, to be in the in crowd. Well, I think we also people have a strong desire to be fighting for some right. And so if you label, you know, pro-life people anti-choice and then you have women that are saying, you're, um, trying to control me or, you know, what you believe is going to cause me to die or going to cause extreme

hardship. You're inciting, uh, believe is gonna cause me to die or gonna cause extreme hardship, you're inciting an emotional appeal, right? And you're using language like you're saying in order to make that case, right? And more people that aren't necessarily gonna think a lot about it, that will seem reasonable. Of course we don't want women to die. Of course we wanna have choice. Of course we, you know what I mean?

And yet we're skirting the actual issues. We're skirting the issue of life itself. And the bigger question that's really difficult for some people to answer is, is this a life? And is this a life worth protecting? Is this, and then we get into problems with language again, because even the notion of a person, we talk about the dignity of the human person, right?

But once you use the language of person, we're entering a sphere of politics, we're entering a sphere of legality. Who gets to be a person who doesn't get to be a person? And all of a sudden, if I can pin you down on when I think a person is really a person, like when they have self-consciousness, like when they can have rational thoughts.

Well, now all of a sudden it's- Well, you're not a person if you're a Jew, or if you're black, or if you're- Right, well, exactly. Because if you're not a person, then I can do to you whatever I wanna do. I mean, this is what murderers do. I have to disavow you of your personhood

in order to do what I wanna do. You were talking about a feminist professor I have to disavow you of your personhood in order to do what I wanna do. Yeah. You were talking about a feminist professor who came and spoke to you guys and you said she made a great point. Yeah, yeah. This was back when I was in college. So to date myself, we're talking about the very late 80s.

And I remember being, I was at a very secular university in Canada, Queens University, and I was part of a pro-life group at the time. I don't know if it's still there. It was called Queen's Alive. And we basically raised money for Birthright, to have Cribs, to help unwed mothers.

That's basically the extent of the work we were doing. Until the university decided it wanted to pass a motion to have the university declared a pro-choice university. And at that time, we were pretty unprepared, but we at least managed to get a motion to have the university declared a pro-choice university. And at that time, we were pretty unprepared, but we at least managed to get a motion in there to say the university should not have a position, to at least prevent that from happening. And so that got us a little more politicized,

because we had to engage in debates and engage, we were being brought into the political atmosphere. And one of the most profound speakers that we brought to our school at the time was a pro-life feminist. And I don't even remember her name at this point, but I thought she was brilliant. And the thing that she said that really moved me

was this idea that for a feminist, if you value women, if you value the beauty and uniqueness of womanhood, one aspect of womanhood is the possibility of being a mother, is having a child. As men, we're never gonna understand that fully. And so that is something precious. And if there's a problem, economic hardship,

maybe even a medical issue of some kind, whatever the problem, you know, a new husband or something, whatever the problem, the answer cannot be violence. That violence is a male, they would say, patriarchal solution. Right, and we should point out, we're not agreeing with all the feminists here, we're just pointing out what she said. Her argument, yeah, which I thought was kind of profound

at the time and changed, because I'm thinking, you know, if you see men running history. The reason this is a great point is, even though I wouldn't want to get down with the feminists, I think the fact that they're, if I'm talking to somebody who would consider themselves a feminist, then this is a really great argument.

You say that men are violent, the patriarchy's violent. Okay, let's go with that assumption. Right. That a true feminist, if you were true to the feminist ideals, you would have a loving option. You would have a supportive option. You would have an egalitarian perspective toward mother and child. You would have a communal, I mean that's what they would say whether it's a practice or not is another question. But the answer would not be get rid of the problem. Kill the problem.

Cause from a feminist perspective, that's a male way to handle the problem. Yeah, keep going, sorry. Oh no, no. This just came out from the New York Post, I guess. I mean, it's kind of ironic. People are talking about sex strikes, hashtag sex strike.

I'm just gonna read a little bit here. I live, this must be a quote from a Sheila, a woman. I live in New York and I am double furious with the Supreme Court. I wanna find people who are coordinating a massive sex strike. That is our power. So it's it's ironic, right, that it's like sex has something to do with babies. And maybe instead of wanting to live in a world where should sex go rightly,

such that a pregnancy or a person comes about, maybe we should we should really think about how we how we engage in sex. No more sex until abortion rights are federal law. I mean to be a little snarky, I'm not sure who would care about these people having a sex strike. Sorry, it's a crazy irony isn't it that they would have a sex strike to protest abortion because they have separated sex from reproduction on some level. Haven't we? Yeah, that's exactly right. I think what they're saying is,

there's something really profound here. I mean, maybe it's not that profound, but it's profound for our day and age, where it's like, you know what? If sex is going to mean responsibility, oh, well in that case, I'm not going to have sex. It's like, well yeah, that's a great idea. If you're not willing to take responsibility, and I'd say the same thing to a man, if you're not

willing to take responsibility for this woman and the life that might result from this act, you are in no place to be having sex. Now, I would say if you're not married, you're in no place to be having sex because you're not willing to take responsibility. Love and responsibility go hand in hand. The greater responsibility I feel for you, that shows how much I love you. If I say I love you but feel no responsibility for your good, then I don't love you. Yeah, and if you're having sex without any commitment,

obviously, but even true connection, which is more and more common, friends with benefits, this kind of thing, then you've separated sex from love, certainly from commitment. And now, and we've separated having a child from sex itself as well as love. So we've separated all of these things and we're wondering why we have disconnection

in our society. The analogy I've used a thousand times on this show and apologize if I'm boring anyone at this point is it's like speaking to somebody who you gradually discover is drunk. And so in the beginning they say things like, you know, I mean, no fault divorce is a good idea because you know, like women shouldn't be in loveless marriages and, and what if

you know, you're like, okay, like I see what you're saying. I don't agree with you. And then contraception, you know, oh, okay. What about contraception? Well, because if people don't use contraception, I mean, there's a lot more stress on their marriage and people should be spontaneous. Like, okay, I see, I see where you're and then like five minutes later and then parents should agree for doctors to cut the

breasts, the healthy breasts off their children. You're like, oh my gosh, you're hammered drunk, aren't you? That then causes me to look back on everything I was willing to listen to and question at all. And I think Christians really have to do this. We have to die on every hill, every hill. Divorce is evil and impossible if it's, you know, separation is something different. If I'm in an abusive relationship, there's something different.

Contraception is evil. Sodomy is evil. Fornication is evil. I have to restate these things lovingly and charitably, educating people on the dignity of the human person. This idea that I'm just going to cave to everything the quote unquote left has been pushing, but the right keeps submitting to it as well until I get to this thing where I'm only not okay with people indoctrinating my children into radical trans ideology. I just don't think that's that's what makes abortion seem like an okay idea.

Like if you've submitted to all of these things, where you've separated love and responsibility with divorce, with contraception, with pornography, with fornication, all of a sudden, if that's what you're based on, or those are the premises that have led up to abortion is healthcare, it makes sense now, why you're... Yeah, yeah. Well, if I could just steer it a little bit

in the area of like counseling and psychology, cause that's my expertise. Let's do it, yeah. And that when you look, if you were to examine, I don't know, like if you were an expert in animal research or something, and you were, there was some exotic animal, I don't know, some penguins or something, I'm not sure,

and you were observing their behavior, right? And you observed that they were doing strange things, like they were not no longer having regular intercourse for some reason, or they were, I don't know, eating some leaves all the time so that they could naturally miscarry their babies kind of thing, or not naturally, unnaturally, or doing strange things to like prevent themselves

from having offspring. You would think something's wrong with these penguins or whatnot, you know? Like what's wrong? Like we have to figure this out. Like there's something at heart that isn't going right. And I kind of feel, I don't want to compare us, we're not, we're rational beings and everything else

But but there's something wrong if you take a step back and you wonder whoa Um, why are we killing our own offspring and how much more wrong if we're rational? So if I see a penguin boarding its babies, right and you're like, holy crap something wicked is happening All the more evil if i'm rational And i'm not acting on instinct. So I believe the Christian response here, Christ's response here, is to bring healing. So yes, of course there are things that violate certain lines, right, where we have to have laws or we have to step in strongly, but I think a longer term effect that's going to have more of a positive result is if we actually work on healing the heart.

If we actually work on healing people, like to understand underneath all of this, what is it that causes people to be in this place and to believe these things? And I think when you go from heart to heart, with person to person, you discover so much. I have an example I think I shared with you the other day, if you don't mind me sharing.

I had this one client and he unfortunately has passed away already, but he had a rare form of, I think some kind of leukemia or some kind of blood disease. But he was the most beautiful person. I mean, this was a guy who was saying holy hour every morning through his suffering and right up to his death, he just gave himself totally to Christ.

He prayed the rosary, he was just, I don't know, he was just a light for so many people. And I was working with him through the grieving process. And he kept bringing up the fact though, occasionally that he was strongly pro-choice. And as a counselor, there's not much I can say. You know, my job is not to, you know, tell people what to believe.

That's not what I'm there for in that context at all. And so I was just like, okay, you know, and once in a while, cause we get into little conversations, sidebar conversations here and there, I would just little okay, you know, and once in a while, because we get into little conversations, sidebar conversations here and there, I would just, little challenges, you know, why would you believe, like you're Catholic, I see how you're, it doesn't,

didn't seem consistent in some way. And I, and then once in a while, to my discredit, I sort of argued a little bit, I couldn't help it, like once in a while I just sort of make an argument, and then he got really defensive and that, and then I pulled back, I don't want to. Like once in a while I just sort of make an argument. And then he got really defensive and that. And then I pulled back. I didn't want to lose a therapeutic relationship. But he said, he made some comment about it at another point.

And I can remember something hit me like a flash of lightning. Cause I had remembered his earlier story, his earlier history before his conversion. And I'd remembered one particular girlfriend that he described having. And I just hit me and I said, Hey, his name is not John. But I said, Hey, John, John, did she have an abortion? And he just went, his whole face just changed and he just started weeping. And I realized, oh my gosh, I was barking up the wrong tree the whole time.

His defense, the radical position that he had was a defense for protecting something that was deep inside of him that was really, really truly grieving and lost. And he'd never had children. He died without children and that was really, really truly grieving and lost. And he'd never had children. He died without children. And that was always that was something he wished he had. He'd always wanted a child.

No, that's beautiful. It's a great sort of microcosm of the larger story. You know, we're coming at it from, you know, life begins a conception and giving the facts, which is necessary. But if the reason you're objecting to me has to do with the pain you're experiencing, you're not going to hear me necessarily. Yeah. And so I think what brings for a lot of people that are, you know, strongly in a pro-choice position, there's a deeper pain.

There's some kind of deeper loss that's informing the, you know, the intransigence, the aggressiveness of their position. And so what happens is we come in and try to approach that in some way, we're perceived as that aggress, whatever their trauma was, it was probably somebody hurting them. Even if you're only laying out a syllogism

in a Facebook post, you're seen as an aggressor. You are that abuser to them. And so if you double up with, ah, your anger and resentment and that, you're just escalating the situation, you're not making it any better. And I feel like Christ's response is our path. I mean, in all the examples where he approached women who had, you know, in some way struggled,

he approaches them with this incredible love, right? He approaches them, not wishy washy in his stance, of course, but he changes their hearts. So I'm just a big believer in changing hearts. It's just so much more important to me than laws. I mean, sometimes laws, obviously, we have to deal with. We're in society. But changing hearts has to be what we do. Loving people and their distress has to be what we do. Loving people and their distress has to be what we do. But back to my point earlier about, there's one way I speak to the person in front of me who's suffering, and there's one way I speak

to those propagandists who are trying to promote abortion. Right, the same Christ said, come to me, you who are weak and whatever, I'll give you, not whatever, sorry, but you know, I will give you rest. And then elsewhere, he says, you whitewash tombs, you brood of vipers and he's flipping over table So I I just don't want to fall into an either or kind of way of thinking I think it's really important important that people use the strongest rhetoric possible. I don't mean lie

I don't mean exaggerate but the strongest rhetoric possible to condemn such a heinous act while in individuals So how do we make how do we balance that Or is that something we think we can balance? Yeah, I can speak for myself. I'm a therapist. So I'm not ever gonna take that stance. Whitewash tomb. Even publicly, I don't think I would. So that's not gonna be my role, but it might be yours.

It might be someone else's to be that kind of a prophet who has to stand up in front of the people and call them to task. Right? That's your calling, then God bless you. But for me, it's going to be I feel like my calling is one of healing, one of encouragement, one of trying to help move toward transformation. It's just such a great point.

I mean, you think of any heinous sin, we'll use the sin of wife beating that we used earlier. You know, this probably comes, like it seems to me that whenever a man is violent, it's because he believes himself powerless or out of control. I know the times that I've gotten frustrated with my kids or frustrated with my wife or frustrated with whoever is, I just, I feel powerless, you know? So if someone's coming to you and they're kind of sort of admitting this and wanting to change,

you really want to address the underlying wound. Yeah. How do we, how do we, do you think that's, how do we do that on a broad scale level? Not just in one-to-one therapy, but how do we sort of address on social media that, is that even possible to address that underlying wound? I don't know.

What comes to me is the history of our church because our church has kind of, I think, given away its responsibility to the government to provide care. It used to be painfully clear, not painfully, wonderfully clear, that if you needed help, there were hospitals run by nuns,

there were schools, there were orphanages run by, there was so much support that the Catholic church had within its bones, the service, right? Loving their neighbor, helping, this kind of thing that no one could point to the church and say, well, they're not doing anything to help. And I feel like that accusation, not that we have to,

it's not a rational, it's not a reason to be pro-abortion to say, well, you're not doing anything to help women you know, who are, who have had their babies. But we should be a shining example of loving and supporting and providing a surplus really of services to help women. Right? And I think in many respects we are. I mean, we, we, you look at these,

these clinics for children, these postnatal uh health what are they called pregnancy centers pregnancy centers yeah they're getting fire bombed and graffitied I I would be willing to bet that the majority of these are run by solid awesome superpowered catholic women yeah um so so yes and we need to be highlighting those places we need to highlight it we need more of it yeah yeah yeah so that we can't be accused of being hypocrites, because from their perspective, we're the hypocrites, from the other side's perspective, because all we care about is making sure the child's born,

but then we don't care about the person. Which is rubbish. Yeah, our whole church's history is about being caring for the live people in distress. I mean, that's the whole Christian message. I think one thing, to your point about addressing those underlying wounds like one thing I would want to say and I said the other day when I was doing a video is that you know If you're a woman who has had an abortion, I think the devil hates you

I think he hated you anyway, but I think he wants to keep you in shame Because he knows that if you were to repent of your sin and receive that mercy that Jesus Christ wants for you, that he loves you, right, that Jesus isn't the accuser of our brethren, Satan is, right, that the Holy Spirit is called the paraclete, which is a strange word, which means defense attorney, right? God is for you, he's not against you, he's not scandalized by your sin. He understands why you've done the things you've done. And and you have done something heinous, just like the man who encourages his girlfriend to get an abortion.

This is a cowardly, wicked thing. But God desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. So I think Satan knows that if you beautiful woman out there who's watching, who's had an abortion, have repented of your sin that God's going to use you to be powerful in a way that the demons fear. Because I've met these women, they're so powerful in acknowledging their own sin and then they reach out to other women and they say, I've been there too. And I just think that's so remarkable and so praiseworthy. I wanted to ask you this because when I was doing this the other day in a video,

someone came online and said they were raped and they had an abortion and they deeply regret it. How does a woman, maybe there's some resources you could point them to, and how does a woman begin to heal from this? Yeah, yeah. Well, there's so much trauma on top of trauma in that one little example, right?

And then all the consequences of that, the shame and the self-hatred and that that follows. So I would say there are programs. I mean, I'm aware of Rachel's Vineyard. Rachel's Vineyard, yeah. I'm sure there are other ones to support women in that situation. I think that one really has to work on what the trauma was,

both the rape itself and what, you know, we'd almost wanna know more about what that was or the circumstances around that to help somebody. There are many trauma treatments. You know, I do EMDR, I do other trauma type treatments to help someone process that. You have the problem here with this, that example is that there's a moral injury

on top of a personal injury. And so really complicates things because most people who have experienced a sexual assault do have a tendency to blame themselves, even though it's not rational, right? It's not anybody objectively looking at the situation would say, this wasn't your fault, but they blame themselves.

That's a huge issue to work through in therapy, is to let go of the self blame. And then to then add an abortion, which then feel, and maybe it was coerced, maybe somebody said, oh, you have to have it, you were raped, you need to or something. Then maybe they just decided, but either way, there's now on top of that another level of moral injury,

another level, like you were saying, like Satan is delighting because he knows, I've got shame to heap on shame, and then that person is gonna buckle under that. So, so much work around, you know, letting go and processing that shame. And the way I would look at that even, I mean, there are ways to do that, obviously, clinically.

I can't help it, I think, in that situation, if the person has, especially if they're a Catholic or a Christian whose faith matters to them, they need a reconciliation with Christ, which is what you're inviting them to a moment ago. They need to find a way to facilitate that. Obviously, we have the sacraments, so go into sacrament of reconciliation,

but sometimes you need to have a psychological, experiential experience to support the sacrament, in my view, sometimes for that, and maybe to prepare for receiving the sacrament. What are some therapeutic treatments that you've used that you do find helpful? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the one that I love and the one that I found amazingly powerful is called parts work. And I've been trained in ego state therapy,

which is a type of parts work. Also had some training in internal family systems also, which is very popular type of parts work. And it's really the notion that within ourselves, within the soul, if you will, we have an inmost self. I call it the inmost self in secular terms, they would just say the self, but I believe it's the deepest core of our heart.

St. Paul uses the word inmost self, and it's the faculty by which we connect with God. And so this, our self, our inmost self created in God's image, and we have parts of that self, right? And we don't know exactly how they came about in some sense. We just know that we have different parts, if you will, sub-personalities.

And some of those sub-personalities are really functional. So in other words, and they're just handy. So like, you come here, you're ready to do a show, there's a part of Matt Fradd that just shows up to do a show, right, and all that. You might see a different part of Matt Fradd, like shows up to do a show, right? And all that. You might see a different part of Matt Fradd like hanging out with his friends, or with his family or whatnot.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's just we have different internal managers that sort of are functional. But we also have parts of the self that we have pushed away, that we kind of hide away. So they're not normally handy in our system. And those in IFS, internal family systems, we call that an exile, might call it a wounded child,

because often they seem like children, or they come from childhood, but we have parts that are very, very wounded. And so what we have within the system, like if you think about a woman who's had an abortion, she might, and I'm making this up, everybody's gonna be a little different, right? But I'm just imagining a situation

where a woman has a part that says, I'm afraid, am I able to support the child? Do I have the resources? I'm scared of I don't have, am I able to support the child? Do I have the resources? I'm scared of giving birth maybe, there's just a lot there. I have another part that says, yeah, but I believe in life, I believe I'm X weeks pregnant

and that there's some being within me. And then there's maybe external voices, but what happens is we have like an internal conflict. And one is maybe burdened with fear, and another one is maybe trying to do the right thing. And then something happens where maybe that fear gets overwhelming and overwhelming, and then we have another part that just shows up and says, do this thing, right?

We call that a firefighter part, but it's like a do this thing, like take this action. We don't wanna be overwhelmed with fear. We can't solve this. And then the person has the abortion in that case, and then now all of a sudden, you've got other, that wounded exiled parts that are like deep in shame, deep in hurt.

And so this work, what I'm referring to, this parts work approach, if you've met the person at that point, you would want to find, help the person identify all those internal parts. You get to know their interior world, right? All the mansions they have in their interior castle. You want to understand them.

And you want to draw out what I call, or what's called the Inmo self. That's that core. That's the noose in Greek terms. That's the faculty that connects with God. And so when that core self, sometimes in secular terms you hear the true self and stuff like that. But when that part can then look inside and see,

okay yeah, there's the do-gooder part. The do-gooder part, they wanna do the right thing all along. They've been injured because they were just shoved aside and this abortion happened. And so let's pay attention, let's look at that part, let's care for that part. We need to go over to the part that is carrying all this fear, right?

And we need to spend some time and attention there. Eventually we need to go to the part that is carrying the shame and all this woundedness and self-hatred. That part's probably exiled really far now, probably hard to access. So the way I look at it is it's not like inviting Christ to come into the moment like some therapies do exactly,

but it's allowing Christ and the Holy Spirit to support the Inmo self, to inspire and encourage and allow our Inmo Self to be able to be Christ within us and be able to heal and work on all these parts and bring them into harmony, bring them into where there needs to be forgiveness, where there needs to be reconciliation, where there needs to be care and love. And it's amazing whenever that inmost self is present, fully present, it's just naturally wants to bring compassion to all the parts. And when all the parts of the self are in harmony, right,

then that person is able to go to other people and support them. Integration is what it sounds like you're talking about. – Well, I would say yes, communion. I would actually use the word communion because there's a communion in the interior world of the person, and now they're creating communion with others. I literally see this as building the Kingdom of God. This is how the Kingdom of God is built, is by allowing our inner selves to be in harmony.

And St. Paul talks about the body of Christ and all the different parts of the body and how they have to be in harmony, right? And when they are, we do fantastic things. I wanna ask you to give us some more examples of these parts, cause this can be very new and maybe a little difficult to understand at first if you've never heard it before, but I think it's profound. Certainly though, I think one very practical thing for those priests who are watching right now, and I wonder if you agree, you could get up and you could invite men and women to come to the Sacrament of Confession and to remind them that no one is beyond forgiveness. And you don't have to mention the word abortion if you're afraid of whatever.

I don't know. Maybe there's a particular partial sensitivity. Maybe there's children and you feel like it would be inappropriate, but you could say, you know, no one is beyond redemption and we have Roe versus Wade overturned and maybe a lot of the anger that we're seeing comes from people's own unwillingness to repent of their sins. I just want you to know right now, you can come. No one's gonna shout at you.

I'm just like you, I happen to be a sinner as well. Come and receive the mercy of God. Maybe that's one real practical way that the church can begin to heal is by inviting people. Yeah, and you just made me think of something there. First of all, I'm in complete agreement with that. And I love that in the sacrament and the power of that, I think is underused.

I do wonder for some Catholics, and especially Catholics who maybe repeat their sins even after the confession and they get discouraged, is that the part of them that is showing up at for the sacrament is the do gooder part. All good intentions, not always that wounded exile that I was referring to. Show us, help us understand that.

What does that mean? Yeah, so the one way to look at it would be, I have a couple of manager parts that are just super helpful for me. One of them is like, I'm a doer, so getting tasks done and da da da. And when that part is kinda like, we would say it's like blended,

or we would say it's sort of like in charge of the system, like driving the bus. So for example, I see how a manager can be good, but he is one way, maybe this is the firefighter, maybe that's the difference, but you know, there's been times in the past where I've had to repent of snapping at my kids. Like I'm not able to deal with this chaos around me.

And instead of sort of saying to myself, you know, this is beautiful that the children can be so free in the house. And yes, I wanna teach them to pick up after themselves, but this is understandable for a five year old or whatever. Instead I'm like, pick up, what are you doing, buddy making a mess of the whole house. Maybe that's the firefighter, that's not the manager.

It could be, believe it or not, we call it maybe a protector. And it sounds funny to say, you know how sometimes if you hear yourself doing that, you think to yourself, oh my goodness, I'm doing what I swore I wouldn't do. I sound just like my mother, right? And so we have a critical part. And the trick with that critical part

is that it is actually trying to protect your system. So it's not so much in that case, I think a firefighter. It's a, I'm critical because I believe, and I've been taught maybe since childhood, that unless everything is clean and ordered, that my world is falling apart. So the critical manager part's job is to yell at everybody and put them down, or else nothing will get done, right?

And so what we have to do is get to know that critical part. Like, where did that start for you? When did you learn? So is this the exile then? Like is this the bit we don't want to confront? Not yet. Okay, not yet, all right. So you can't get to the exile until you have,

you get your protectors and managers allied with you. So the critical part, like you're not gonna access the wounded child part. If a critical manager is screaming around, there is not showing up. You have to be able to first work with the critical part and say like you, where did this come from in you? Okay. And you might identify, yeah, I sound like just like my mom or whoever and be able to say, well, what, you know, let's, let's work together and, you know, to understand the burden.

So the burden is I have to yell and scream in order to get my needs met. Once you like identify that, it's like the inmost self is gonna be wanting to identify the inmost self to recognize it's gonna know that's not true. That's not true. That shouldn't be true, right? But so we wanna say to the critical part is that

what would it be like to let go of that burden? And they might not want to. They're really, well, if I let go of that burden, all hell's gonna break loose. Could we try for five minutes? Let's just try letting go of that burden. You know, what does it feel like? And even like noticing it in your body.

I'm noticing it now. That's why I just went. Awesome. Yeah, yeah. And then what might happen is that you might, there's a few different ways you could go with it as a therapist, but you could say like, well, would it be okay if we, if you just watched

as we, as in the inmost self and the therapist's help went over to this wounded part who feels very, is filled with shame or whatever. And they often, it's amazing, they'll usually say okay. And they'll watch something different happen. So you go into that wounded child and you're actually like loving them and being encouraging to them.

And then the innermost child feels so bad about themselves, like I don't do anything right, nobody wants me, I'm just an inconvenience. Whatever it is their burden is, and you help relieve that burden, you show them love and you really see the child. When we look at our inner children, if you will,

those winning parts, from that innermost self, to every client I've ever had, they love them. Once they really can connect with them, they love them. Like this is a child, this is, like Christ said, bring the children to me. And then you go back, but here's the trick. You have to go back to that former critical voice and you have to say, did you see that?

What happened? We didn't yell at him, we didn't put him down, we didn't scream, he was eager to, once we encouraged him, he was eager to help. Yeah, and then the critical part, we'll have to say, you're right, because I just saw it. Can you help with that?

Can you, can we become, instead of a critical voice? Can you become an encourager? Can you become an encourager and and it might take time or? Some other role, but you see we're not telling that critical part because it has been a protector It's been protecting your system. It's all like the only way it knew how and so you actually look at it and say Thank you Thank you. You and say, thank you. Thank you. You have done a thankless job, even if the results weren't always good. Sometimes they were, I mean, you know, but mostly you've been doing this job that is,

that doesn't even make you happy. So how exciting will it be? So you were bringing that part into communion with your whole interior system in a new way. And now the exiled child gets to be closer, this critical part gets to be involved. And there's harmony. Because sometimes people do feel like they're schizophrenic.

Like I'm really kind to my next door neighbor and then I'm barking at my husband or something like that. You're like, what is going on? Yeah, it's reconciliation. Now you've already mentioned St. Paul's analogy with the many parts, but you know, someone might be watching this saying, is this really compatible compatible with the Christian faith? Yes, I believe it's in the very fabric of it. But I'm actually I've been working on a manuscript now for the last few months because I was struggling with the fact that most of the theories that I'm drawing

from, internal family systems, ego state therapy are very secularized programs, right? And in fact, internal family systems, the founder, Richard Schwartz, who's brilliant guy, I mean, what he was able to do with his program, unbelievable, so kudos to this guy. I'm not trying to put him down. But over time, since he developed it in the 80s, he has become more and more what I would call new age.

And his latest book, No Bad Pirates, pretty much is pantheism. It's basically saying the self, because he discovered that this self, he just discovered it in the natural realm. That the natural, the core self is, no matter what trauma you've experienced, no matter what kind of horrible person you are,

so to speak, is compassionate and kind once you access it. So he discovered this spiritual truth, but he is assigning it to like, the self is part of a bigger self that we all are one and it's all the same substance. So he's even trying to discover God kind of in that, but he calls it self with all capitals. So I got uncomfortable with that, as you can imagine, and ego state therapy kind of comes out of the psychodynamic tradition, drawing a lot from clinical hypnosis. So I have some issues there too. as you can imagine, and ego state therapy kind of comes out of the psychodynamic tradition,

drawn a lot from clinical hypnosis, so I have some issues there too. So I really want it to figure out, I know this works. I know, I've seen it work. It's the most powerful therapy I'm aware of, but what are we doing in an anthropological, philosophical, theological, like what is going on actually? And that really took me into a major exploration of what does it mean to have multiplicity of self within our interior world. I don't believe our parts have an ontological reality separate. Their ontological reality is tied up in our soul, right? But I'll tell you where the inspiration hit me was, as you know, my practice, my clinical practice is transfiguration

counseling. I have a huge devotion to the transfiguration. In my chapel, in my house, I have a giant icon to transfiguration. And I just, the profoundness of it, I believe, Christ revealing his true nature and all of this and everything. And so I'm sitting there stumped and going, okay, how can I link parts work to faith? And I did that, I'm staring, I'm sitting there, I'm staring at my chapel and I'm looking at the icon

and it hit me. The icon of the transfiguration is a parts map. Christ is at the center, his truest nature, kind of representing our core in most self. You've got Elijah and Moses, and they are both, they're in heaven already, right? So they've been totally transformed. So they are unburdened, unblended, unburdened parts

that are in harmony. But then you've got Peter and James and John who are like in the bottom. Yeah, they're just like all over the place. And they represent our parts that need unburdening, that need this process of parts work. Because clearly they, you know, Peter especially, right? And well, James and John,

James and John were the sons of Zebedee, they were zealots. John becomes the beloved disciple, right? Peter was, you know, we know the story of Peter and how all over the place he was, he becomes the greatest leader of the apostles. So that to to me, was showing me that all of our iconography represented parts in some way. And then it took me to the Last Supper. There's communion, there's Christ again in the center, and there's apostles

around him. These are the parts. Christ is representing the Inmost Self, all of the parts, and how they are in communion, the Eucharist is celebrated, they're united in a harmony in order to then go out into the world. So let me push back, not because I don't agree with you. But someone might say, okay, but this is just a spiritual reflection on two incidents within Christ's life. I mean, maybe you're just running a mark with how you're interpreting these things.

You're getting too creative. This still doesn't show me why this past work is Christian. Well, another angle, all right, and I keep going with what I was saying, but I think there's some truth to that. Like, I think you'd have to flesh that out more to understand it. But another angle is the Trinity itself, right?

And we know that the Trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So the Trinity isn't the same as like our parts, because they're all, they're equal and they're, you know, they're all God in essence, and all that. But it represents the multiplicity within the Godhead that represents communion and love and the kind of motion of harmony within that. And we're created in God's image. We're not just created in the image

of the God, the Father, or Jesus, we're created in the image of the Trinity. I believe you. Yeah, I agree. And so, in a sense, it is within us at a very inherent level that there is a multiplicity of within ourselves in order for there to be within us

a communion, if you will, and a harmony, and working that works together. So I think it's embedded in being created in the image of God. That we aren't just a mono, we're not a monolith. Clearly we're not a monolith where we're just like one person and that's all we are. Yeah, I mean, I think part of why we know this is true,

as you say, is because it works. It's sort of like, how do we know repentance works? Or how do we know repentance aligns with some actual reality, namely God and me and sin? Well, because when I do it, I'm healthier, you know, so it's like, however I figure out that it works, I know that it does. I think something is similar here.

Maybe sometimes, maybe it's the language of parts that a Christian might immediately go, I don't know what you're talking about. It sounds weird that there's different parts within me. But you just have to take one example. There's a child. He's born. His father's an alcoholic, he believes himself to be undelightful if that's a word, right? And he believes that if he causes a mess he gets hit and or something like that I'm coming up with some traumatic example I know, but

so then he has this belief really and so you've got in order to be good I must do this and that becomes a part I suppose am I am I tracking or am I not really getting it? Yeah. Yeah, I think so I think we it's hard to know and this is a question I'm still open to is like are we born with parts that are just sort of inherently there and I'm leaning in that direction versus in the history of psychology, there's been this wrestling with, all the way back from even before Freud,

in terms of like, what are these, how do we understand our interior world? And the, some, one strand of thinking within the field of psychology would be that you want to have a monolith mind and anything, any disease, if you will, mental disease, is a fracturing. Right?

And so the goal is how do you unfracture that. Right? But no, that would make sense, but I don't think it's how it actually is. And I think that what it is is instead, we are born with a multiplicity of parts sort of inherent. And those parts get burdened, and then they become, they feel like fractured,

disruptable, disrupted parts, that they need to be healed and so on. That in fact, the biblical, I would argue, the biblical position is that we are created with this diversity within ourselves that is actually beautiful. And it only looks like a broken, fractured thing. Well, a because of the fall. Now, since we're fallen beings, our parts are are actually burdened and our parts are actually struggling. But the goal isn't to just make them all into one. The goal is to harm, like bring, evangelize all of our parts. Maybe it's the word parts that people might get hung up on.

Like it sounds crass, materialistic. Obviously you don't mean it in that way. Right, right. Yeah. Is there another word that you sometimes use? Well, ego state gets used. So that sounds very psychological and so on because it's like a an ego state Is is a part

And it's so it's a way of being it's a way of You know because because it's a the part if you will or the ego state Subpersonality might be another word. This is this is Plato. Sorry not interrupt, but it is the Plato's Republic That's the whole point of the Republic is people think it's like a very like political document Which it is but the whole point when they when that's right. I start talking about the city. He's like, okay Well, if we want to understand people it's good to look at like big versions of things So let's pretend this person is a city That's exactly so all these different parts and like who you put in charge of your city of your heart

That's kind of the core idea of of the Republic. Had you made that connection? I had not, thank you Neil, that's awesome. I love it. No, that's a really great point. Because I've been looking at, I spent a lot of time with St. Paul, but I've been looking at St. Augustine and starting to look now at St. Thomas Aquinas

to understand what, do they unwittingly, because I don't think they obviously speak in these psychological terms, but are they unwittingly talking about parts? And even St. Augustine, I've found the most evidence for that and he talks about his inward parts and his higher parts. And so there's an element of recognition

that we have these sort of like inner turmoil within us. My heart is restless until the rest in him even is this idea that there's a restlessness and an inner struggle, if you will. Can you give us an example of when this really clicked for one of your clients, just to kind of put some flesh on this theoretical idea, obviously not giving any,

not giving your clients information away, but. Yeah, so many examples, man. I have so many examples. But I'm thinking one in particular right now, where, well, I'll use a really hard example, actually. I'll pick trauma. And we're working with a client who had been severely sexually abused as a child.

And I think when he was like 10, let's say, and he believed very, very strongly that it was all his fault. It was a rather horrific sexual assault, in my opinion, but it was by a family member. And so he had created basically a manager part or a protector part that was, or I would say a part took the role of a, called it like a Marine. So this was a tough military guy. Oh, I see, yeah. And so whenever I would ask him,

sort of a natural therapist to ask a question to ask about, oh, what was that? So when you think about sort of a natural therapist to ask a question, to ask about, oh, what was that? So, you know, when you think about, you know, yourself as a child and this horrible thing happened, the guy would immediately be like, thinking, I just want to beat him up. Like, I just want to set him straight and be harsh with, like he was incredibly harsh and mean.

And I'm sitting with this guy, and I've worked with a lot of abuse survivors, and they are typically very negative on them, like I was saying before, they take on blame. But this guy was like, he wants to beat the crap out of his inner child. And I was like, whoa. And so much around, and the way that when we worked on it,

and we worked, I spent so much time with his marine part, because to the marine part, the child had betrayed masculinity, had betrayed being a man, that he wasn't, this child represented that he was no longer a man. And we had to do so much work, you know, because, and really we're thinking,

but we discovered that the marine part was really had the development of an adolescent in truth. So that even the image of the Marine was really an adolescent's version of what a Marine would be. Not a true Marine, right? Most Marines would. And actually that was part of it.

I actually had to say, well, work with him and say, you know, let's just think about like what Marines do. I mean, their job is to rescue people who have been hurt, who have been, you know, oppressed or whatnot. Like, their job is to save. But this Marine isn't doing that at all. And so with this client, it took so long.

And eventually, in working with that protector part and helping him see the child differently, that Maureen sort of transformed into a new role of being the buddy, being the guy who had to help him along, help him to recover, discover and recover his manhood and that he was, you know, and this, and so now the inner relationship between this protector part and this inner child changed.

And this changed and then all of a sudden we could take this inner child part and like, let's discover this kid. He's an amazing kid. What does he like to do? I'm always like, my inner child likes to play with his Star Wars action figures. You know what I mean?

He likes to, what is your inner child? Yeah, and he has to think like, my inner child liked to play basketball. Let's make him a basketball court. Let's give this, you know, let the Marine can play with him. All of a sudden in his inner world, he's just changing his entire relationship

with his parts, if you will. And these parts are parts of the self. So they're not like, they are, they have their own thoughts and feelings and experiences even, but they're still a part of the self, of the person, right? So in that sense, there's integration. In that sense, they're now coming together,

working together in a healthy way. Yeah, that's beautiful. I remember, I kind of struggled with looking back on my child's self and just hating it. You know, I wouldn't have said that, but if you had have asked me to tell you about what I was like as a kid, I think I would have had a lot of uncomfortable feelings. I felt skinny, weak, emasculated, freckly. I thought that was a bad thing for some reason. Now I think freckles are the best. But just like, you know, it's funny the things that matter to us when we're children,

just because we get older and those things don't matter to us anymore, it doesn't mean they aren't still mattering to us in some sense. I remember something very simple as I was a kid, I had thin hair. And my friend, my friend Jacob had like a, you know when they used to do that, the part down the middle and like the bowl cut? For some reason I was envious of that dude. And I was, so I kept envious of that dude and I was but I kept so I kept trying to do it but I would have like crinkly curly hair

and I just felt so ugly yeah and so there was this moment where the Lord just brought tremendous healing to me because I saw a photograph of myself sitting in my bed looking at my basketball cards which I used to collect and I just felt both kind of like angry at that kid. But I was also beginning to do some healing in that area and just a reconciling with that kid. Like, I love you. Like you're a good boy. And I texted that photo to sister Miriam. Oh yeah. And she wrote back, she texted back. Oh, he's so beautiful. I love him so much.

I'm like, is that kind of what you're talking about? It's exactly what I'm talking about. Man. Yeah. Arnold, let me read his last name here. Well, Arnold is asking for resources to look into more of this type of therapy. Maybe keywords too would be helpful.

Yeah. So internal family systems is the one I was mentioning. There is, ego state therapy is another one I was mentioning. There is Ego State Therapy is another one. I have a Catholic mental health program called Souls and Hearts, so soulsandhearts.com. And we have Dr. Peter Malinowski, who is my partner in crime at Souls and Hearts, has a whole podcast.

It's a great last name for a psychologist. Yeah, yeah, Malinowski, who is my partner in crime at Souls and Hearts, has a whole podcast. That's a great last name for a psychologist. Yeah, yeah, Malinowski. Just sounds so... Yeah, yeah, he's a fantastic guy. And he's been doing a podcast called The Interior Therapist, and it's available on Apple and Spotify and all that. And he's like the guru in internal family systems and he has been in that podcast going over all the different ways in which it's compatible with the Catholic faith, or at least you can apply it to a Catholic perspective.

So that's a great podcast. And then we have communities in Souls and Hearts, like online communities, that we use parts work in our approach. Yeah, thanks. You know, I've just been thinking like, oh, that's great for you. You're a therapist. You get to see these individual people

and show compassion to them, especially as it pertains to abortion. What's something we can do? And you know, I mean, there's a lot we can do individually. What's something we can do publicly to make a statement about this? And I just thought, here's something we could do. I don't know how many people are watching right now,

but you could go on Twitter or Facebook if you have social media. If you don't, your life's better than most. But if you do, you could go online and say, if you're a woman who's had an abortion, I want you to know that you are deeply loved by God and that no one is beyond redemption. Right. You could do that. And you could link to Rachel's Vineyard.

And at the very least, even if someone hates you or hates the fact that Roe versus Wade's been overturned, it's difficult to be angry at someone who's just saying, you're beautiful and I love you. And like, you're not beyond redemption. You know, you know, it's like you can get angry, but it's so irrational at that point when all you're saying is, you know, you're lovely. And if you're a man who's encouraged someone to have an abortion, you know, here's a resource for you to begin healing. Is that something?

That's something? I love it. I love it. It's kind of just putting love out there, right? Putting compassion out there. Yeah. It's sort of like when a child rages. Right. And you're tempted to rage back

No, but sometimes the best thing like I found this like it's something one of my kids being totally irrational And even if they say something that's like offensive to me, you know, maybe ten years ago I would have like yelled back, but sometimes I'll just sit there and just like absorb the blow And just wait and and that's almost that's kind of like what St. Paul says about heap heaping coals on our enemies heads. I know that could be mistaken, but I'm not heaping coals in my children's heads. But the point is in my absorbing that and reflecting peace,

they become painfully aware of what they've just done. Yes. And then they apologize. I love you, buddy. Like, it's okay. I think that's way better approach, right? Because you're basically helping them develop a conscience of their own

rather than reacting to your conscience. Yeah. So that's beautiful. I think that when someone is angry, you know, or upset or venting at someone else. The whole thing of saying to them, and this is such a typical or common counseling thing, is to say, when you do this, I feel blah.

That's such a common one. But it's so powerful though, because you can't really argue with how someone feels. If you're not defending yourself in a sense, like by arguing back about content, but you're making it about the relationship and about the feelings, then the other person has to pause.

Oops, sorry about that. Sorry, I'm looking up comments that are coming in. Oh, okay, yeah. Something accidentally played, I apologize, keep going. Yeah, you have to pause for a moment and actually reflect on relationship rather than just the content. Yeah.

Which is what we fail to do so often. Do you mind if I throw a few questions your way? Yes. You haven't obviously read these. These are coming from my local supporters. This is Katie Diddit. She says, when I was in fundamental evangelicalism, stories of mothers haunted by their aborted children were sometimes told.

They would hear babies crying or have nightmares of searching for their babies or even have their living children talk about imaginary friends in terms of the aborted sibling even If they never were told about mom's abortion She's she's asking of these things actually common and what's your opinion on them? Yeah, well You know, I don't have any scientific research done in this area, so my comment is just gonna be my own. I could imagine that some people would feel like some of that is propaganda to make women feel guilty,

but I have experienced and met women who have described symptoms like that. My earliest was way back in my Catholic school days. I can remember being in high school and women coming to our school and talking about their experience of abortion and how much it hurt them. So all I can say is I know I have met women

who have had those kinds of regret and deep hurt, really trauma from the experience. And I would say it is possible, I suppose, to have such adult conscience that you don't feel anything possibly after an abortion, I don't know. But I think that almost everyone on whatever, on either side of the debate would have to say, it's not like they want abortions.

Like I don't think even Nancy Pelosi, I have no idea. But. Even those who say they do. Right, they're not actually saying like, let's reach a quota of abortions this year, it would be delightful. No, they would say abortion is unfortunate, we wish we didn't have to have it,

but it should be there, right? But so those people that have that notion, that they have to have it, but it should be there, right? But so those people that have that notion, that they have to have a notion there's something wrong with it. And so even on that slim little piece, but even more for others, like there is a moral injury that happens, even if you're in denial about how you feel

about what a life is or a person is, that is inherent in this, I feel, so that you can't quite deep down deny what you did. And so, if you had had that baby, there would be a person, quite possibly, God willing, there would be an actual person here that is not here now. And I think that's hard to deny

because that's just the reality. And so for a person to actually realize that later, whoa, can create a lot of pain. I think what we also see on the pro-abort side is this idea that that's all bullcrap You know your supposed trauma after an abortion is only sort of the residue from the Christian legalist Mentality which is so insulting to say to somebody So insulting that this is all in your imagination get over it right?

Kyle Whittington says dr. Crete if there's been a level-headed conversation about healing from abortion on social media, I've yet to see it. With so much lost in translation with communicating through simple text, conversations get heated really quickly. When the pain and the wounds are so great, it often seems like not engaging online at all is the best approach. When talking to a woman who has had an abortion online and you're trying to facilitate healing, what would be the approach you would recommend to people? So, sorry, so the woman's online, she's had an abortion? Presumably you know that, but maybe you don't. Oh yeah, he's saying yes. If you're talking to a woman online who's had an abortion and it gets heated real quickly and that comes

out, how do you, how do you begin to facilitate healing? He raises such a good point because I really do think these conversations are so much better in person and with people you have a relationship with. It's just like evangelizing. It's very hard to evangelize a stranger, right? You befriend someone, you get to know them

and so they know your heart. So if the person doesn't know your heart, it basically means they're going to see you as the abuser. So he's probably right, there isn't a lot one can do in that situation. But I would say though, you have to show love, compassion, and listen. So I would say listen first, react later,

and ask for their story. Like tell me about. What was that like for you? Yeah, because I think that that would direct the approach that you might go with it, because you might step into something in your effort to try to share the truth that actually could be extremely hurtful to that person in that moment, right?

And that would be something to save for later or to position differently. So I would say get to know their stories. Every person has a story. Try to see if you can go deeper into what that was. And even if it was like, you know, even if you're just listening to things you disagree with, pause, pause,

and then think about how can I show compassion? Because it might be that you open something up with compassion that might not have occurred to the person. Like you might, as they're telling their story, you might say, well, in that moment, right, when your boyfriend said this to you or whatever, did that feel, was that hard for you? Like, did you feel torn there?

Whoa, they may have glossed over that and that might actually open that up in that moment. And so really you have to be shown as a person who loves somebody they can trust, that you're sincere in your effort to listen and sincere in your desire for the good of that person, that they feel that. Because if they don't, you're just an abuser to them.

Yeah, that's really great. Under Grace says, hi Matt, for Dr. Crete, would you work with a client who was convinced they wanted to go through with an abortion? If so, what would that look like? And if not, what would that look like? And how would that conflict with or rest with secular professional membership bodies, APA, et cetera? Yeah. Ooh, that's tricky. What a great question.

I really haven't had that happen. So I can only speculate. I feel so strongly about this that I would have to just be myself. I like anything. I don't advocate or would never encourage a client to get a divorce. I mean, unless, I don't know, there might be extreme circumstances, I suppose, but generally speaking, no. So, but a client can always get a divorce

if that's what they want. So, I saw my job to run their lives, right? So, the same is true of an abortion. If they said they were planning to get an abortion and I would have to say, well, that's your choice, if it is a legal choice and so on. I'll be honest. I'm just being really hard honest here.

I might cry. I might have a lot of words, but I could be drawn to tears to hear that. And that might be my only witness. And I'm a human being, and I'm entitled to have an emotional reaction. So, you know, I would be deeply sad at a minimum, and I don't think the client would fail to notice that.

And they can do whatever they want with that. You often hear that people relive their trauma or they engage in something that's hurtful to them, that they can tell is hurtful for them and they wonder why it is they're doing that. I wanted to ask you, first of all, why is that? And then what does that look like in this topic of abortion with perhaps both men and women?

Yeah, oh wow, wow, wow. Yeah, well, my initial thought, because we were just talking about the case that I mentioned before of the guy who'd been sexually assaulted in the Marine part, is in this, the one way that this person acted out their trauma was in pornography. And the type of pornography they observed,

they was like always very like harsh, you know, it was same sex pornography where somebody was being brutally dominated in ways that were demeaning. And they kept going toward that, that same type. And so why is that? I think that is because, or it could show up in a different type of person, like it might be they actually acted out, right?

Like why do some people like some of the bondage things and things like that where they're being humiliated in some way and that is arousing. So why is that? And so I think it's psychologically, the part is trying to revisit the thing that happened for a different outcome that never happens. So it's like we're going to the scene of the crime

over and over and over again to get a different outcome. And they're, but they're literally on replay. It's like a loop that happens over and over again. And there's, that is also linked with another element that relates to the arousal and so on is that in most cases it depends, situations are so different. But in this case, the 10 year old was, it was an older, I think cousin.

And this was somebody he really wanted to like him. Like, you know, he wanted initially like the reason why he was with this person, he thought he to like him. Like, you know, he wanted initially, like the reason why he was with this person, he thought he was like special because this older cousin liked him and was willing to spend time with him. And then the sexual assault happened. So the fact that the person was, and the part of it was accepted

and felt like they were wanted and they belonged is now tied with being, or paired with being humiliated and being demeaned sexually. And so now there's almost like there's a cocktail drug in the brain that says, I will have my needs met of belonging and acceptance through being abused. And so therefore I wanna continually play that out over and over again, unconsciously. They're not consciously making that choice that way. It is just sort of what is unconsciously

what's driving the compulsion. I've sometimes been told that if you get a song stuck in your head, the best thing to do is to listen to that song because perhaps what your brain is trying to do is complete it. I don't know if that's true or not, but there's an analogy there maybe where it's like you keep going back to this thing as you say, hoping for a different outcome. Yeah.

Or maybe to have control over the thing too. Is that part of it where you felt victimized? You felt dominated? Whereas if I can kind of use this thing to find power, It creates, controls word for it. Another word that might seem strange is safety. I know that doesn't make sense, but what wasn't safe in that moment, it's now safe for me now,

because I can, in a sense, control it in reliving it. Because in pornography or whatnot, there's a sense in which it creates a sense of safety in that moment. And it's a strange phenomenon. But what I, the way to break out of that, right, might require lots of therapy and so on, but again, is that in most self.

Because that part is basically that is replaying, either for the control, for that sense of belonging, need, whatever, is replaying it, is that part is sort of so blended in with the whole self. You know, in ego state therapy, we would say it's in the executive. But in internal family systems, we would say it's blended, fully blended.

So it's all, it's like in charge, running, riding, driving the bus. Well, we need to get that separated out, right? The Inmo self needs to see it. It kind of breaks the spell. Because when we can see that dynamic and love the parts stuck in the dynamic, that all of a sudden the whole system goes,

I don't wanna do that. I never wanted to do that. And then you have to sit with that. You have to that might take time. How how might that look in the case of an abortion? Or have you not really dealt with? Yeah, I have to think on it, right? Well, I mean, just let me throw this out here, perhaps what you're thinking. You said earlier that most people, if you were to ask them,

they would say something like abortion is unfortunate. I think we've seen a shift from that maybe not in the majority of people, maybe not in individual circumstances, but it's almost like it's not enough that you put up with my evil. You have to celebrate it. There has to be a whole month maybe dedicated to it. You know not not enough to tolerate. You must celebrate. This is why what's his face in New York City, the mayor of New York, when they pass some abortion bill, lit up the I forget what it was, the Empire State Building in pink or something like that to celebrate it. Is this all this language of celebrating your abortion?

And I I kind of wonder if that's not kind of reliving trauma where it's like, yeah, I had an abortion and you know what, it was good and I'm happy to get it again and I will get it again. Is that part? Yeah, so, okay, yeah. So from a parts perspective, I would see that as a part and probably a protector part, which is a type of manager, but I would say that as a protector part.

And I would be curious to know what the burden is. So if you have this need to celebrate something, that protector part believes that whatever it is celebrating is true, for starters. I'm assuming that it believes it's true. It believes it's righteous. It believes it's fighting the good fight. So you have to start by respecting that,

sounds odd to say, but you have to say, oh, okay, so you're a part that has some nobility. You're a part that has a little crusader. You're a part that wants to fight for rights, even if it's misguided, right? But that's what you are. And so you gotta get to know that part. Then it'd be like, well, what's the burden?

So when did you learn that this cause was the one worth fighting for? Now we find out where it comes from. Like at one point, I don't know, maybe it was a situation where they were raised by a mother who had lots of kids and she was strung out on drugs and and she was Irresponsible sexually and and and he had to get out of that, you know, whatever crack house

I'm gonna make you have a bad situation But but you know what I mean and that like and then he vowed, you know I'm never gonna women shouldn't live like that and and you know what I mean? You gotta get at what's what's informing Yes Because people aren't gonna be all excited in a crusader over something that matters little to them or has never affected them. So, and if we just dismiss that and just say they're evil,

we've missed the whole point, we've missed the whole problem. And so we have to get at where that came from. And then, and that's a hard, that would be a hard thing to get at, right, with another person. But unless they were interested in exploring it. And so then you're discovering that there was probably then an exiled child part who felt completely helpless at one point

and was a victim of, in this case, their mother's irresponsibility. And maybe they had a lot of anger and frustration to where their siblings who, for various reasons. And so this is where the self-hatred and the hatred of, you know, the beautiful gift and miracle of life began. Yeah. And so, yeah, then to me,

that would be a really difficult one, but you would then have to work with that, unburden. You have to witness to the story, because we're talking then a very young parts mentality, right? There might be other parts of that person that when you approach them, could be a little more objective or could be a little more look at things and say,

well, that's one situation. What is the solution to this little kid is, well, why can't she just stop having babies? Oh, abortion's a solution. Well, other parts of that same person might be able to come in and say, well, that is an unfortunate situation. Maybe we need to do something to like get ahold of,

you know, like stop drug use, or we need to, you know, like stop drug use, or we need to have pregnancy centers. Another person might take that same wound and build a place for unwed mothers to support them out of addiction. Right? And so we can encourage other resources to come to bear and understand.

I think the minute you start validating and understanding at least why the person adapted the way they did, you can now open things up and they can come out of that younger mentality or that developmentally stuck mentality and see other options. That's great. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

with some more questions and I wanna remind, well, let people know that Dr. Crete and I are going to be going through some litanies that he has created. Litany of the closed heart, litany of the wounded heart, litany of the fearful heart. This is gonna be a little different to what we usually do, but hopefully when the time comes,

those who are watching at home could maybe turn off all notifications and just pray with us. So we're going to have a time of that later on. Matt, Matt, we're live. We're live. Welcome to the intermission everybody. Want to let you know about a few things that we got going on. mission everybody. Wanna let you know about a few things that we got going on. First, I've started a brand new channel called Victory. It's a people who wanna over, that's not real whiskey. I feel like I have to tell you that. And better talk about like how to overcome porn.

That's water or it's whiskey. So it's called Victory. This is the new channel and it helps people overcome pornography. And we hope that you will go and subscribe. My goal was to get 5,000 subscribers by July 1st. We've almost got 9,000. So let's make it 10,000 by July 1st. We would absolutely love that. Click the link in the description below.

Go check that out. Second, I want to tell you about the greatest app on earth. It's called, uh, no, it's not called Victory. We don't have one yet. Then that'll be the greatest one. It's called Hello. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Hello is the best Catholic prayer and meditation app be the greatest one. It's called Hello. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Hello is the best Catholic prayer and meditation app on the market. You didn't even know you needed it, but once you download it, you'll realize that you did.

It's absolutely fantastic. If you go to Hello, H-A-L-L-O-W.com slash Matt Fradd, sign up there. You'll get three months for free. You can try it out. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay a cent, but I think you'll love it so much that you'll continue to use it.

If you wanna grow in your prayer life, if you wanna make it a more regular part of your day, you can't like it, you don't have to pay a cent, but I think you'll love it so much that you'll continue to use it If you want to grow in your prayer life, if you want to make it a more regular part of your day You can't go past. Hello. Hello.com Slash Matt frat also if you want Scott Honda read you to sleep. Yes, I don't know does a sleep story Yeah, that's right. Did I tell you that it was super weird when I saw him at Mass the next day It's an intimate thing. I had him laying on my pillow Not him you understand but the phone laying on my pillow and he's reading soft words to me I love you Scott and then I saw him the next day and blushed I also want to invite you to become part of our free speech community over on locals locals

As I say free speech community, it'll be there long after YouTube has maybe they won't ban me But I wouldn't put it past them. Did you know that TikTok just gave us an official strike? Ooh. So if if TikTok bans me, I'm not even making this up. It will be part of my official bio. And we should probably have T-shirts banned. Yes, because honestly, I lost respect for myself when I joined TikTok. Anyway, point is, if Big Tech censors me and censors these conversations,

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I'm just a little bit of a I'm just a little bit of a All right, we're back. How is your podcast doing for those at home? Souls and Hearts, we're going to put a link to this below. If you're loving what you're hearing from Dr. Cree, you're going to have to go check out Souls and Hearts. Yeah, Souls and Hearts is doing great. And I have been letting Dr. Peter Malinowski do the Interior Therapist podcast, and that's been doing fantastic.

I took a break from Be With The Word because I'm getting ready to start a new one called The Recollected Self, so far. We'll see. I'm in progress. Do you remember when I always used to call your podcast Minds and Hearts, and you're like it's souls and hearts He didn't say it like that. I feel like that when people say hey, I love pints of Aquinas

Well, I don't know what that is. Yeah souls and hearts. Awesome. Jerry. What's your part? What's the like pitch for your podcast the reclaimed? What was the name of the recollect itself? It's not out yet, though It's coming and basically it's related to what I've been talking about today is it's recollection and the Catholic understanding, right, is about connecting with our inmost self, is how I now see it. And pausing and allowing God, allowing that moment of grace where God can actually

connect with us. So my whole idea is to do a podcast related to helping people connect with their inmost self, therefore support all their parts properly, be in better harmony, and then be in better communion with the church. So coming soon is all I can say on that. We got a question here. Local supporter, Grace says, I am going to grad school for clinical social work at Columbia University and am worried about standing firm in my stances with my peers and in classes since most in New York City are very spirited

and not interested in intellectual conversations, looking to become a Catholic therapist. What was your strategy in regards to this while in school? My strategy, wow. Well, first of all, congratulations there at Columbia. I have a daughter who's actually doing a clinical psychology doctorate at Columbia. I did my doctorate at University of Georgia, a very secular program. I'll tell you this, my approach is to really understand and know the other positions out

there. I don't have to absorb them all. I don't have to accept them all. I might find truth in some of them or many of them, but so I would say be open-minded enough to at least your job is to get to know them. It's the same reason, like, I'm just an education junkie, but when I was doing some apologetic stuff years ago,

I was reading Martin Luther, I was reading John Calvin, I was reading MacArthur, I was reading R.C. Sproul. I wanted to know what these people said. Maybe I would find truth in it, but I didn't want to be wrong about what they said. So I would say, be open-minded in the sense to get to know. So I would say, you know, be open-minded in the sense to get to know. I would say take a low profile. It would be my actual advice rather than just start fights,

but create a community of Catholics to discuss it. I mean, it's like watching a TV show that has problem, moral problems in it in some way. It's better if you have people that you can critique it with and engage like, okay, what was wrong with what was the problem with that? And I'd invite that person to check out Souls and Hearts and check out what we're doing with the ITC community because it's a support place for therapists. We got a lot of questions here from patrons who are asking things that we've really addressed already in the show, but maybe you want to take another swing at something like this. Well, here's one we haven't addressed. This comes show. But maybe you want to take another swing at something like this. Well, here's one we haven't addressed. This comes from Elias.

How can men find healing after supporting, recommending or even financing an abortion or the use of abortive drugs? Could you do a quick search? Because I know Rachel's Vineyard is, I think, for women. No, men can participate. OK. I know a fellow who has actually participated in Rachel's Vineyard, but there may be specific others retreats or something like that. I know a fellow who has actually participated in Rachel's Vineyard, but there may be specific others retreats or something like that.

I know they exist. Yeah. Do you know of any other resources? It's really just rations of any, if you, if anyone knows in the live chat right now, some excellent resources for both men and women trying to recover from the post abortive let us cover ministry. That's huge. I'm not remembering.

Yeah. Well, let us know. We'll put it in the description so people can, can check that out. Uh, what's the best way says Grond, who's a patron to help a woman after she regrets her abortion. Man, what a, what a heroic thing to do to regret something like that. You know, it really is because if I've done something really heinous, like let's just take another example, say like pornography, right? Like let's say I look at pornography frequently

and on one side of the aisle, I have people saying, you should rejoice in this. This just shows that you're virile, that you appreciate women, that you're sexually liberal, which is beautiful. Also, you know, you could be causing STDs, but you're not. You're being very respectful and masturbating to your laptop.

They wouldn't say that, but you know. And then on the other side, I got people saying that no like this is this is really Not a good thing this this is objectifying etc You know like it's a lot easier to go along with the people who are going along with your sin than to go along with the People who were telling you you've done something evil need to repent and so I always think people who are Willing to acknowledge their own fault even when they could have went along with the post, with the pro-abortion crowd, just brave.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that if they're acknowledging it, that means they have done something that most people don't do easily. And from the parts perspective, you banish the parts that you don't wanna deal with. So the part of me that knows it was wrong and feels bad. Get out of here.

We're gonna move that way out of my consciousness and it'll still be operating because it will, but we won't be aware of it. But instead this person choosing to repent is allowing healing to happen. Paula is asking about the current research on post-abortion mental health issues in men. Obviously, you're not an expert in this, but have you heard of anything? I'm not up to date on that.

I wasn't expecting that today, but we weren't expecting Friday's ruling. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's helpful. Well, should we get to these litanies or is there something else you want to address before we do that? I'm up for the litanies. Did anyone suggest any helpful

resources for women and men? God bless racialist vineyard, man Do you well do you want me to say something about what they are a little bit before we get to them? Yeah, I just want to make sure do we have any more questions or any other thing? I don't see any resources and no more questions, yeah. Did you put a link to Rachel's Vineyard in the description? Good stuff, yeah. I just, I'd recommend everyone do that.

Like, here's a takeaway from today's show. If you're on any kind of social media, today say on your social media, if you're a woman who has had an abortion, if you're a man who's encouraged one find healing now and just link to ratios Vindy that could be a beautiful thing that you do. Yeah. All right We're gonna move into a time of prayer, which is very unusual for a show like this But I would invite you to be part of this, you know

Turn your phone off close up the other windows if you want to and let's do this together explain explain what these are Yes, so the other windows if you want to. And let's do this together. Explain what these are. Yes. So these litanies are based actually on attachment theory, and which is a really powerful and empirically validated kind of psychological theory and research that really began with an understanding and research of the parent, actually mother and child bond and how they bond, how they find attunement and connection.

You had Dr. Bruniger on the show a while ago and he did a beautiful description of attachment theory. So that's what this is based on. And the idea here that came to us and the work that I'm doing with people and we all have insecure attachments, was the idea of a prayer, of a litany, that would move us from our places of desolation

and disconnection and brokenness into a deeper relationship with Christ. You know, today we've talked about abortion and various things, like the litany of the wounded heart For example would probably be a beautiful one for a person to to pray if they had they were repenting of an abortion But we all I think can relate to all these different different moments. Sometimes we're closed and withdrawn sometimes we're we're Anxious and fearful, right?

Sometimes we're just stuck in some kind of woundedness and some kind of sadness. And so each, there's a similar pattern to each of these litanies, but they all bring us into that moment. And so they move from just the Lord have mercy part, which is just like, here I am in my woundedness. And it moves gradually into like what has Christ done

An invitation for Christ to act and then a trust in him. So it's sort of like that progression in the litany Before we pray it is there some way people can read these online or maybe Neil could put links in the descriptions you can go to souls and hearts calm and They are there's a you can click on the link to it I think it's alls on heart slash lit would take you right to it. He found they are, there's a, you can click on the link to it. I think it's soulsandhearts slash lit would take you right to it. But there's a link. Yeah, he's found them.

I'll link to it. We'll link to them below so people can print them with us. They're in Spanish and in English. And we have audio versions there too that are free. Oh, that's lovely. The PDFs are free. These little prayer cards you can order. We just asked for a donation for the shipping.

Yeah, for sure. But we mean this as a gift. Okay shipping sure, but you know printing this is a gift Okay, well, which one should we begin with? Well, are you feeling a little more closed? Fearful right now. Well, I do think litany of the wounded heart would be good Especially if there are people here who've had an abortion or are who've encouraged one in some way Maybe we could begin with this one. Yeah, and we could pray the way we did last night. Same way Okay, you want me to lead please? All right In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Amen

Lord Jesus you created me in love and for love bring me to a place of vulnerability Within the safety of your loving arms Help me today by transforming my wounded heart into a heart that can love you, myself, and my neighbor as you intend. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its sufferings. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its doubts. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its hurts. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its hurts.

Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its fears. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its burdens. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its hope and all its lack of hope. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its joy and all its lack of joy. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its joy and all its lack of joy. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its love and all its lack of love. Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me. When I feel unseen, Lord, have mercy. When I feel unheard, Lord, have mercy.

When I believe I'm not good enough, Lord, have mercy. When I feel inferior,. Lord have mercy. When I feel inferior. Lord have mercy. When I doubt my worth. Lord have mercy. When I feel devalued. Lord have mercy. When I feel exposed.

Lord have mercy. When I feel humiliated. Lord have mercy. When I feel discouraged. Lord have mercy. When I feel lonely. Lord have mercy when I feel lonely Lord have mercy When my feelings overwhelm me Lord have mercy when I feel I'm too much Lord have mercy when I feel unlovable Lord have mercy when I feel despair

Lord have mercy Jesus I know you love me in all my wounds Lord have mercy. Jesus I know you love me in all my wounds. Lord have mercy. Jesus, consoler of my sorrow. Open my heart. Jesus, most tender. Open my heart. Jesus, my dignity.

Open my heart. Jesus, my hope. Open my heart. Jesus, you created me in love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me for love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me to be loved. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you see my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you know my true heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you comfort my heart.

Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you treasure my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you encourage my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me as your beloved. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, soothe and comfort my weary heart.

I trust in you. Jesus, see my pain. I trust in you. Jesus, dispel my despondency. I trust in you. Jesus, hear my cries. I trust in you. Jesus, draw close to me.

I trust in you. Jesus, calm my fears. I trust in you. Jesus, help my fears. I trust in you. Jesus, help me see my true worth as a child of God. I trust in you. Jesus, shine your radiant light on me. I trust in you. Jesus, hold me in your loving arms.

I trust in you. Jesus, help me love with my whole heart. I trust in you. Jesus, you created me to love and to be loved. I trust in you. Jesus, you created me to love and to be loved. I trust in you. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its love. I trust in you. Lord, you are the healer of my soul and my heart. I ask that through this prayer you would transform me more and more into the likeness of your precious and sacred heart. Let your kindness and compassion transform my heart and more into the likeness of your precious and sacred heart.

Let your kindness and compassion transform my heart and bring me always into the security of your loving embrace. Amen. That's beautiful. Where did you get these from? What did you, where did you get it? They come to you, you know, were you in prayer and just thinking about this? I was, I mean, had the idea of doing a litany and I I've done litanies in the past, sort of creatively here and there,

but, and then how do we apply, basically, yeah, that attachment theory to envisioning actual my clients, like envisioning people that I've worked with that have struggled. And I just sat down and I just wrote them. There was a little process of, I had some little groups pray them for a while

and make little changes, you know, for flow and everything. Father Boniface Hicks was our spiritual guide to kind of give us a few pointers as well and approve them, so yeah. Thank you so much. Yes, we have links below to all of these that people can read and pray with You do one more. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah

Just while we're on the we were talking about post-abortion healing for men is Hallelujah found a link to the USCCB has something called the hallow men, which is for male grief and trauma falling What's it called the hollow men? Hello, L. L. O. W. M. E. N. It's holo man. Yeah, man. It's it's in reference to a TS Elliot quote. Oh, I see Thanks Do you want to do closed heart let's do it. All right In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen Lord Jesus you created me in love and for love.

Bring me to a place of vulnerability within the safety of your loving arms. Help me today by transforming my closed heart into a heart that can love you, myself, and my neighbor as you intend. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its sufferings. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its sufferings. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its doubts. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its hurts. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its fears. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its burdens.

Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its hope and all its lack of hope. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its joy and all its lack of joy. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its joy and all its lack of joy. Jesus, I offer you my heart with all its love and all its lack of love. Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me. When I'm withdrawn.

Lord, have mercy. When I'm consumed with worry. Lord, have mercy. When I numb out. Lord, have mercy. When I feel cynical. Lord, have mercy. When I numb out. Lord have mercy. When I feel cynical. Lord have mercy. When I lose trust.

Lord have mercy. When I'm distracted. Lord have mercy. When I try to escape my feelings. Lord have mercy. When my body holds my stress. Lord have mercy. When I'm under pressure.

Lord have mercy. When I'm filled with anger. Lord have mercy when I'm under pressure. Lord have mercy when I'm filled with anger. Lord have mercy when I become obsessed with tasks. Lord have mercy when I feel the urge to act out. Lord have mercy when I feel ashamed. Lord have mercy when I feel unforgiven. Lord have mercy Jesus I know you love me in all my wounds. Lord have mercy. Jesus my helper. Open my heart. Jesus light of my mind. Open my heart. Jesus my

guide. Open my heart. Jesus my teacher. Open my heart. Jesus bread of life. Open my heart. Jesus face of mercy. Open my heart. Jesus my Redeemer. Open my heart. Jesus face of mercy. Open my heart. Jesus my redeemer. Open my heart. Jesus my life. Open my heart. Jesus my desire. Open my heart.

Jesus my comforter. Open my heart. Jesus my trust. Open my heart. Jesus my safe haven. Open my heart. Jesus you created me in love. Hold me in your arms.

Jesus you created me for love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you created me for love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you created me to be loved. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you created my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you see my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you know my true heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you comfort my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus you treasure my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you treasure my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you encourage my heart. Hold me in your arms.

Jesus, you created me as your beloved. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, awaken and restore my stony heart. I trust in you. Jesus, receive my new heart. I trust in you. Jesus, draw close to me in my struggles. I trust in you. Jesus, forgive me. I trust in you Jesus draw close to me in my struggles I trust in you Jesus forgive me. I trust in you Jesus. Give me new life

I trust in you Jesus hold me. I trust in you Jesus contain my stress I trust in you Jesus relieve the pressure. I trust in you. Jesus comfort the pain. I trust in you. Jesus help me see that I'm not defined by what I do. I trust in you. Jesus let all my actions flow from your love for me. I trust in you. Jesus you give meaning to my life. I trust in you. Jesus help me love and forgive others. I trust in you. Jesus help me embrace my vulnerability. I trust in you. Lord, you are the healer of my soul and my heart. I ask that through this prayer you would transform me more and more into the likeness of your precious and sacred heart. Let your kindness and compassion transform my heart and bring me always into the security of your loving embrace

Amen All right one more we're gonna do it. Let's do it. I Felt that one more just now the last part I've been playing the fearful more often. Well, what I love is I love that I Love that it sort of situates us right where we surrender exactly how we are to our Lord. And I love that you're using terminology that we use today, like numbing out, cynical, distracted, I'm escaping my feelings. Yeah. Our Lord meets us right there. Yes, I'm glad you see that.

That's what's intended. Yes. For it to be real. Mm hmm. All right. This is the litany of the fearful heart. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord Jesus, you created me in love and for love. Bring me to a place of vulnerability

within the safety of your loving arms. Help me today by transforming my fearful heart into a heart that can love you, myself, and my neighbor as you intend Jesus I offer you my heart with all its sufferings Jesus I offer you my heart with all its doubts Jesus. I offer you my heart with all its hurts Jesus I offer you my heart with all its fears Jesus I offer you my heart with all its burdens

with all its fears. Jesus I offer you my heart with all its burdens. Jesus I offer you my heart with all its hope and all its lack of hope. Jesus I offer you my heart with all its joy and all its lack of joy. Jesus I offer you my heart with all its love and all its lack of love. Jesus son of God have mercy on us. When I feel afraid Lord have mercy. When I don't know how to feel safe Lord have mercy on us. When I feel afraid. Lord have mercy. When I don't know how to feel safe. Lord have mercy. When life feels chaotic. Lord have mercy.

When I'm confused. Lord have mercy. When I don't know how to trust. Lord have mercy. When I feel hurt. Lord have mercy. When I feel unloved. Lord have mercy. When I feel disappointed, Lord have mercy. When I feel unloved, Lord have mercy.

When I feel disappointed, Lord have mercy. When others fail me, Lord have mercy. When I feel let down, Lord have mercy. When I feel all alone, Lord have mercy. When I feel rejected, Lord have mercy. When I feel I don't belong, Lord have mercy. When I feel hopeless belong Lord have mercy when I feel hopeless Lord have mercy when I'm afraid of being hurt Lord have mercy Jesus help me love others when it is difficult Jesus help me

pray for those who have hurt me Jesus I know you love me in all my wounds Jesus oh oh sorry you go you love me in all my wounds. Jesus. Oh, sorry. You go. Jesus, most compassionate. Open my heart. Jesus, healer of my wounds. Open my heart. Jesus, my shepherd. Open my heart. Jesus, my protector. Open my heart. Jesus, unspeakable love. Open my heart. Jesus, you created me in love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me for love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me for love. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me to be loved.

Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you see my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you know my true heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you comfort my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you comfort my heart.

Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you treasure my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you encourage my heart. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you created me as your beloved. Hold me in your arms. Jesus, you are present with me.

I trust in you. Jesus, you bring me close to you. I trust in you. Jesus, you walk with me. I trust in you. Jesus, you bring me close to you. I trust in you. Jesus, you walk with me. I trust in you. Jesus, you accept me. I trust in you. Jesus, you calm all my fears.

I trust in you. Jesus, you protect me from threats. I trust in you. Jesus, you delight in me. I trust in you. Jesus help me trust you. I trust in you. Lord you are the healer of my soul and my heart. I ask that through this prayer you would transform me more and more into the likeness of your precious and sacred heart. Let your kindness and compassion transform my heart and bring me always into the security of your loving embrace. Amen.

bring me always into the security of your loving embrace. Amen. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Amen. Yeah, we really should be, I think, you know, obviously, the work has really just begun here in the United States. We want a national ban on abortion so that all human persons would be treated equally under the law. And so we should continue to pray and we will continue to pray, but I think as we pray for the end to abortion, we have to pray for the victims of a sexualized culture that's lied to them, that's hurt them, that's let them down.

We really have to just be praying for men and women and encouraging them and loving them. And I mean, I'm sure people are doing that. I'm sure those beautiful old women out the side of abortion mills have always been doing that. But you know, we can't ever fail to pray. We can't begin to look upon our ideological opponents as our enemies, because he is the thing. And I'm saying something that's obvious. God came to save us, right? God came to save Margaret Sanger. God came to save whoever is currently the president of Planned Parenthood.

God wants to save Nancy Pelosi. God wants to save Joe Biden. God wants to save Matt Fradd. The enemies are Satan and the demons and these false words that are being propagated. And may I, you know, I think continue to speak out with tremendous passion and even ferocity on the evils of abortion.

But may I never mistake those evils? For the people who are saying them. Yeah. They think beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think that my own throw, you know, throw in there is especially after praying. Those prayers would be, you know, let me be Christ. You know, let me be fully Christ-like

when I engage anybody. It doesn't mean I am, that certainly doesn't mean not speaking truth, but that means speaking from love, from a heart that is so united with Christ that others would see it and they can reject it. That's nothing I can do about that, but that is hopefully what I want them to see.

Because maybe there's a chance that something will shift. And I think that's the way we transform society is that when more, that's the kingdom of God to me. When Christ was talking about in the Lord's prayer, on earth as it is in heaven. He wants the earth to be filled with people so united with him, so connected, having such amazing inner harmony with all their parts

and connected with God that that is like appealing and beautiful and just love, God is love. You know, the letter of St. John, God is love. Letter of St. John, God is love. That has to be what they see, in my opinion, for there to be radical transformation of hearts. Even online, reading even our comment section, just make sure that there's kindness and actual love and not insulting.

Yeah, insulting, and maybe that's the thing, because I go back to what we've already touched upon three times Christ called people whitewash terms right he called them brood of vipers These people who were laying up burdens upon people who they themselves wouldn't even pick it up And I think here of those lying politicians those Cowardly companies that are laying up burdens on these women that they themselves aren't willing to bear, that they have no concern, they have no love for these women that they're encouraging to kill their children. Shame on them, you know. What they're doing is gravely evil.

May they, may they repent. May these poor souls repent. Repentance is so necessary. And to all the priests who are watching, thank you for being a priest. Extend your confession hours. Invite men and women to confession no matter the sin they've created or done. Sorry, committed. I think of Therese of Lisieux on her deathbed, who said that, you know, someone said to her, it's no wonder you're so confident in heaven.

We don't think you've ever committed a mortal sin in your life. And she says, it's not because of my lack of confidence that I go to God with mercy, even if I had on my conscience, all of the sins creatures can commit. I'm certain I would lose none of it. I mean, think about that for a moment. You got to raise a Liz. You're saying if she had of had an abortion, if she had of killed somebody, if she had of blasphemed,

she would still be as confident at that moment than if she had never said because she said this. And this is the line I think we can say to people if we preach and those priests who are listening should say your sin, all of that sin compared to God's mercy is like a drop of water flicked into a raging furnace. So come to the sacrament of confession, come and receive the mercy God wants for you. And that's true not just of grave sinners, like that's what's interesting, right? I think many of us

hopefully would look at someone who's had an abortion and we understand very clearly all you got to do is go to confession, it's done. Then we look at ourselves and our sins may not have been as grave, but we're unwilling to stop beating ourselves up. We're unwilling to think, we think somehow we're special, that God's mercy is for everybody else but me. But you, who's just got a list of boring little sins, get to confession and receive the mercy that He wants for you. Stop beating yourself up. You know, it's funny. I don't know if it's directly related to what you're saying,

but I did have a chance to see Mother Teresa when she was alive. I don't know if you ever had that opportunity, but she came to Ottawa. And I went, I was at the time I was at university college. And so I drove to Ottawa and all Parliament Hill was packed with people obviously and this little woman you know she's tiny right and she winds up that

whatever steps to get on the podium and of course you could hear a pin drop everyone was quiet across all of Parliament Hill and I don't remember anything else that she said except for this. She said, don't kill the babies, give them to me. I'll never forget it. It was just the most powerful and sincere. I felt so sincere. She really meant that. And-

Elsewhere she said, it is a poverty that a child should die, that you should live as you wish. There we have again, right this love Doesn't mean niceness love means truth and truth hurts especially if you don't want truth to be truth and yet in all of her actions she demonstrated that she Should come to serve. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, how we treat what is it how we treat the least? Of of our you know members in society tells us who we are.

And you know, that can be something objective, right? So the objective least might be the unborn child, but to you, the least might be Nancy Pelosi, right? Like that might be who you consider the least in society. So how do I love that woman? Do I actually pray for her? Like when no one's looking and I'm just praying my little rosary, am I offering it up for her conversion? You know, here's a good litmus test. Would you rather Joe Biden repent of his sins

or be humiliated in public by being denied the Eucharist while the cameras are on him? And I think for many of us, we would say the former, but we might struggle a little bit because we really would like to see him humiliated. And it's like, OK, Lord, cleanse me of that. Yeah. Help me to love Joe Biden. Help me love Nancy Pelosi. Help me to love the president of Planned Parenthood. Yeah, absolutely. Well, as we wrap up, where can people learn more about you?

Well, I have a practice called Transfiguration Counseling, and so there's TransfigurationCounseling.com, and I have two therapists in Georgia. I have a therapist in North Carolina, who's at St. Michael's Parish there in Gastonia. He's a professor at Belmont Abbey. And I have two excellent Catholic therapists in South Carolina now. So we're growing Catholic therapy in the Southeast. Nice. And I have a life coach as well.

Does strength finders. Great. Really super Catholic woman. And so Transformation Counseling is where you can find out about our group. And we also have, well, of course, as mentioned, Souls and Hearts. And we have communities on there, some courses, blogs.

The online communities are really growing where people are coming together and connecting with each other. We've got one for men, Catholic Journeyman. So it's designed to help men with their sexual purity, but also just improve relationships. And in that we have small groups that meet together to support each other and mentors and all sorts of things.

And Resilient Catholics is another online community for people that are just, it started out of COVID, people coming together with the stress and anxiety and distress, and it just grew into this community of Catholics who just wanna, they wanna understand their parts and they wanna grow in love with each other. And so it's been a beautiful thing.

As we wrap up, I wanna ask everybody who's watching right now to let us know in the comment section, what is one thing we can do today? to help bring about healing after the past 50 years of The abortion Holocaust and it doesn't have to be big doesn't have to be profound It could just be something please let us know in the comment section below. I want to learn from you I hope you've learned from us today. God bless you and see you next time