Pints With Aquinas - Heated Debate on Pornography w/ Dennis Prager

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

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Let's talk about the pornography thing. Right. Well, that was... How did that go when you discussed it with Father Dave? Well, you'll have to ask the people there. I mean, I can only judge it from my perspective. I thought it went terrific. When I saw that clip of you on Exodus, I got the sense that you were a bit sidelined.

Totally. And as somebody who has a talk show, I wish that I could go back and rephrase things or add some nuance to them. Well, that's correct. I wrote a letter. I hope you saw it, and it was the last thing I imagine being asked at an Exodus course with Jordan Peterson and a bunch of scholars, whom I adored, by the way. Nevertheless, I should have, I wish I had phrased it better it is what it is and I phrased it better tonight without being untrue to myself, right and

What I did not see a big part of the problem Should I review this for your watchers listeners review review what happened show that don't understand. Yeah, please we're talking about so I The daily wire asked me to join Jordan Peterson or Jordan Peterson asked me to Jordan or both of them asked Because he's doing the book of did the book of Exodus. They were I believe 16 sessions of 90 minutes each it's a lot a lot of time With no commercials. How many days did you film this in?

Oh, eight. Eight days. Yes, eight days each time in Miami. And it was wonderful. I loved it. So what arose at one time, and I've even forgotten about this, it was five minutes out of,

let's see, what is 16 times an hour and a half? Twenty-four hours. So it's five minutes out of 24 hours. And what happened was, I don't even remember how the issue arose, but I mentioned that there is a Jewish-Christian difference with regard to Jesus' statement that a man who lost after another woman has committed adultery with his heart. That a, that phrase does not appear obviously in the Hebrew Bible, but b, that the general

Jewish view, and I say general because I can't speak for all Jews even though I try to be normative, is that you can only commit adultery with, and I said this in the video, and I purposely said I'm not trying at all to be cute in any way, you can only commit adultery with one organ and it is not the heart. Judaism is very behavior-based. Christianity is more, it's not that it's not behavior-based, but it is equally, if not more, thought, inner self, heart-based. So, for example, there's a phrase in Hebrew that I learned very early in my yeshiva education, I'll say it in Hebrew so that people will know I didn't make it up, lo ha mach shava ha'i kareli ha'ma'a. It is not the thought that counts, that no, not that counts. That is the essence, but the deed.

Right. Judaism is very behaviorist, and I am very behaviorist. So for example, and I mentioned this to the two at Franciscan, I've said on the radio very often, I don't care if you like Jews. I don't care if you like Jews. I don't care if you dislike Jews. I prefer you like Jews, but there are a lot of Jews I don't like. I mean, it's a little silly to say I like a whole group. There's no whole group I like. There's no whole group I dislike. But in any event, I don't care if you dislike Jews. I care how you treat Jews. And that is, treat Jews and that that is

Uh, it it goes to the to the essence of what my belief is. I want to know how you act The the left does this all the time Oh, you treat gays beautifully Like in my case I am I am my wife and I are godparents to a gay couple's children But the fact that i'm against a same-sex marriage that makes me a hater. So how I treat j gays is irrelevant It's it's what I think Uh, this bothers me that your thoughts can be regarded As a demerit but see but your thoughts wouldn't be uncharitable towards people with same-sex attraction

You would just think that the behavior is presumably sinful It the so they would be wrong in there. No thinking of it was a home of what bothers me the most is That we redefine marriage. Okay I'm When my Leviticus commentary comes out that'll be the fifth of my five volume commentary on the Torah I have already written 22,000 words on one verse which of course I've never done for any other verse about a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman and And so without even getting into that I just the point I wanted to make was for the left

without even getting into that. I just, the point I wanted to make was for the left, what I think renders me awful, not what I do. So my treatment of gays is excellent. But the fact that I don't think marriage should be redefined is enough to make me a hater, bigot, homophobe, and all the other terms that they use. Anyway, back to us. Okay. Let me interject here. So Aristotle in the Nicomachean Ethics, right, has these four levels

of the vicious to the virtuous man. The vicious man is the one who wants to do evil and does it, and he has the incontinent man, the continent man, but he says the virtuous man is the one who wants to do the good and does it. And so to me, I like, I have children. If one of them held antisemitic views, but treated you kindly, I would say, well, that's better than holding antisemitic views and being bad toward you. But I wouldn't, I would, I would think that's not where I would settle. I would want him to.

That's fine. I, I, I, I, I respect that. And I also want to to… That's fine. I respect that. And I also want to say that I think I agree with you that obviously adultery and lust are different things. If they weren't different things, we wouldn't have two separate words for them. Right? Yeah. Also, which comes somewhat of a revelation to my Christian friends, is there is no sin of the…there are 613 laws in the Torah, none of them say do not

lust. You can't covet. Covet is a very different concept than lust. Covet means you want to take what belongs to another, and it is a very simple proof that it doesn't mean lust, covet. You don't lust after a house or a donkey, one presumes. And yet you're not allowed to covet those either. But do you make a distinction between sexual desire and lust? Do you see a distinction? Okay. So therefore, if you don't see a distinction between those two things, it, I can see why you would think it insane to tell somebody that you lust. I don't know how you sexually desire your wife and have no lust for her.

Oh, I do. Okay. So I would think that's interesting. I would think that lust. So you think so. Lust I do. Okay, that's interesting. I would think that lust... So you think so, lust, okay, yeah, you're right. This is interesting. I've never confronted it quite this way. So lust... Lust reduces the subject to an object. It subordinates the dignity of the person

to the good of a selfish pleasure. It's also a distorted sexual act. So it's an act which is contrary to human nature or to the end of Of the second so if sexual desire and lust are different Can you sexually desire a woman you're not married to and not lost for her? Yes. Oh I would think so. Okay. I haven't heard that from from a Christian because I suppose there were like three stages if I would think so. Okay, I haven't heard that from a Christian before. Because I suppose there were like three stages, if I would think of it. Like if I board an airplane and I sit next to a beautiful woman and I'm attracted to her sexually,

how could I not be? Okay. That's beyond my control. I couldn't agree with you more. Now the next step could be, now what do I do with that? Do I sit here and fantasize about what I could do with her sexually?

Like at that point, the will is engaged and that is something within my control. Right. So I think it is important to make that distinction and I think that might be part of what drives some Christians neurotic if they think, well, sexual desire is a sin, can't sexually desire anybody who isn't my wife. Well, I think not only Christians, but I think in some cases with Jews too, that it does drive people to be neurotic. I said, you don't think of a pink elephant.

Well, better don't you're in a restaurant. Don't think of food, but that's a real life. Very bad. Stop it. Yeah. Yeah. You'd go crazy. That's right. And by the way, the more you don't think about it, the more you think about it. So there's that, there's that element too. Agreed. So, uh, I, too. Agreed. So, I differ with you and I did with the Father, and by the way, I mentioned this is very important to note what a credit it is to Franciscan University, A, having me, A, as a religious Jew, obviously doesn't believe in Christ, I'm not a Christian, and B, that they discuss openly with me at the university what they

heard me say on Daily Wire. But he did raise this issue about sexual objectification, and that reduces the human being as one created God's image, etc., just what you said now. And I have a different view of that. Sure. I think this, I suspect you may have not heard this before in one of your podcasts. Here we go.

From any of your guests. I think that in the bedroom, if a loving husband, and who is a loving husband, and I have a word to say about what a loving husband is, a loving husband and Who is a loving husband and I have a word to say about what a loving husband is a loving husband who sees his wife in the bedroom as a sexual object Uh, I I will be totally open with you. I have said on the radio If after x number of years married your husband still sees you as a sex object, you are both very lucky. I would say it depends what you mean by sex object. If what you mean is your husband continues to

find you sexually desirable, I would agree with you. If what you mean is the man essentially treats his wife as a warm body to masturbate in, not taking into account her feelings her desires. Oh of course, but that's not this that's not Objectification has a as a dirty name. He said he doesn't the father said one shouldn't even objectivize Baseball players and it was an excellent analogy. I had thought of that myself, but I do objectivize the base Yeah, I know I'm not sure if I agree with him Okay, but it doesn't mean that you would automatically mistreat the baseball player. That's right But I'm in a different relationship with the baseball player than I am correct But there is a place in the totality of a relationship

So here is my motto because I talk about men and women every week for an hour on my radio show and I have for About 20 years and that is you make love outside the bedroom and you have sex inside the bedroom. I think it's a romanticization of the sex act to say that there it's always making love. It's okay to make lust. It's okay to have some objectification. That doesn't mean you're mistreating her. Yeah, I think I'd want to know what you mean by objectification. I had the sense that you're using language to convey something that I might agree with. Yes, you might. I think you really might.

I agree with you. It certainly doesn't mean mistreat. It's not even implied. But any more than with the baseball player. And you'll say, well, I have a different relationship with the baseball player. But you're right. Sex is its own world. I don't like to romanticize sex

Sex is sex is many many things. Sometimes it's love Sometimes it's just pure sex when it's pure sex and not just love there is an element of objectification I'm crazy about her legs Is that an statement of love What do you mean? You don't love like what do you mean by love, right? So I would say Aristotle and Aquinas would say that to love is to will the good of the other for their sake So I don't will my wife's good for my sake. It's not like I say honey I really need you to go to CrossFit so I can lust after you Well, but what if I want her to get healthy for her sake then this is love

So I would see if she says to you honey, there's a certain thing that you could do for me sexually that will really turn me on, and it may not really turn you on, are you being objectivized or are you doing it because you love her and because she wants it? Well first of all she's asked a question in which I presumably am free to decline. As she, oh, if she's not free to decline, that's coercion and there's no room for that. Objectification and coercion are not the same thing. So she's asking me a question in which I'm free to decline that's coercion and there's no room for objectification Which I'm free to decline right so honey would you put on this sexy outfit for me? Are you okay with that me? Yeah, buddy. Hell. That's a question. I didn't expect you to ask while you opened it up. I Would not be okay with that that's interesting I don't think even in the bedroom

It's not that I'd be morally opposed to it. That's interesting. I don't think. Even in the bedroom. It's not that I'd be morally opposed to it. It's just that I'd feel uncomfortable with it. Well, my view is that the more comfort the couple has, the better the relationship. I think that's right, so long as comfort doesn't lead to what I would consider to be sexually perverse acts. Well, why is it sexually perverse to wear a sexy outfit? It's not, and that's why I said I'm not morally opposed to it.

But if you're saying that- Oh, okay, so your discomfort is personal. That's fair, that's not an area I need to get into. One thing I would love you to get into, because you did say this in the email, is you think that the widespread proliferation of pornography is destroying teenagers. Help people hear this side of it.

Yes, well, I gave an example tonight. So I'm very friendly with a young woman. She's 23, very, very close to her. People could guess who it is because I do a podcast with her. Okay. So she is so open, God bless her. I don't think she would object to my telling this story In fact, maybe it was even discussed on one of our podcasts were very very open. So she was on a date Mm-hmm, and they were both attracted was not the first date and they kissed it's all they did They kissed and in the midst of the kiss he he grabbed her neck. Oh like this and Even me mr. Open was taken aback and

And so was she? To her credit she what she took his hand away She said either then or or later that evening or later another time Why did you do that and he to his credit was open enough to say I thought you would like it. That's what I see on the internet. That's a bad thing. That's, that's the number of young men who learn about women through porn and not real life is a very scary thing that has developed so I am I am as worried as you are

About the pornification of society when I answered the question that Jordan Peterson Asked which came out of nowhere. I'm not blaming him in the least. It was a perfectly legit question, but it came out of nowhere I was thinking still in the way. I have always defined it as Playboy magazine That's to, that was porn. The stuff that is out there now is not what I think of when I'm asked the question. And so I did say this to the father tonight, and I'm sure it shocked everybody there.

Did you ask him? No, keep going, I was about to make a bad joke. You'll get a charge out of this intellectually. It'll blow your mind, I think. So my dad was an Orthodox Jew, a modern Orthodox, admittedly, but Orthodox, never drove on the Sabbath, never ate a non-kosher food, wore a yarmulke in the house, sent the kids to yeshiva. I mean, he was the real deal. He was the president of the Kingsway Jewish Center, still exists, Orthodox Synagogue in Brooklyn, New York, and he subscribed to Playboy, which shocks Jews as well as non-Jews,

to be honest. Good. Okay. Yeah. Good. Glad that it does. Yes. Okay.

However, so I was raised in a very sexually open home that was also deeply religious, and I never found them conflicting as he didn't. And so he was an outlier, I acknowledge, and I am an outlier, I acknowledge. However, I want people to understand my parents were together 72 years and they loved each other crazy. When she died at 89, he died at 96. He basically, his life ended. His screen saver was I Love You Hindi. That was his nickname for her. Her name was Hilda.

And she knew he got Playboy. This did not trouble my mother. Oh, that's Mac. Okay. I'm married to a Livewire who was faithful and who loved me. And she was crazy about him. And that, and that, and that was it. What would be better for your father to love your mother and get playboy or for your father to say, even though I'm tempted to look at pornography,

my wife's body is enough for me. And I'm not going to look at that even though I'm tempted to. That's a very fair question. I Don't have an answer which will I? Should give you the answer you want. I think you should too. Yes. That's a good point you do I don't know what that means enough As I said which bothers is funny There were two groups that it bothers the very religious and the radical feminist when I say that men are Variety built in God made male sexual nature as variety oriented as one

Oh, I don't know who put it this way, but one wit put it a woman loves a man and men love women Now I don't want men to go around loving women. I'm totally opposed to that. I am and insist on my being, it's not even debatable that I am faithful to my wife. It's a given. My wife knows that other women are a turn on. She knows it, it does not bother her.

To my luck I am married to a woman who does not find male sexual nature frightening most women do and by the way I understand that but again, I think we have to make the distinction between sexual arousal and Sitting and fantasizing or watching Actually, they looked at it together and and if you well, that's sad too I think I don't, why is it sad? Because I think pornography is a version of the sexual act, which is holy, which is, let me finish, which is God's first commandment to humanity, be fruitful and multiply.

It is the most intimate thing two human beings can do together, not watch the office, not go for a walk on the beach. It's the fundamental act that brings about the family which brings about society I'm of the opinion that if you pervert that fundamental, I don't know why it's a good why is it perverted? Why is it because it usurps the natural end of sexual intercourse if I eat food and then force myself to throw up I'm usurping I don't think that that it's a fair analogy. Let's say they look very fair Let's say they looked at bathing suit ads,

not at Playboy. Just they looked at that other beautiful women together, and it was okay with my mother. Obviously, the assumption is it was okay with my mother. If it wasn't, then it's not a good thing, clearly. I am more worried about men having to hide their nature. See, when you say God has built into their nature, desire for variety, it sounds like you're saying that therefore it would be unnatural to not look at pornography. Well, forget the word pornography because it's so loaded. I'm anti-pornography. But if pornography means anything that is arousing, then it could be a bra ad. Right. Well, is that correct?

I think I could define pornography like this. I could say material, which depicts erotic behavior. That's no, not behavior. There's no behavior in playboy. Okay. Well, it's not behavior. I think that's an important distinction. I think what, when you say behavior, I think you're meaning video or no, I didn't. That's why, that's why I read behavior then. No, I don behavior, I think you're meaning video or acting out. No, I didn't. That's why I re-correct. What do you mean by behavior then? No, I don't.

I am not advocate of watching sexual behavior. I want to know what you mean by the word behavior. Because if I'm going to say it's... Sexual activity between two people. Okay, so even a photograph in Playboy of two people engaging in it. But there weren't such... When my father got... So that's why you were opposed to that, but you're okay with a man looking

at one naked woman, let's say. Yes, or they weren't even naked then. They were covered in their privates. But you're opposed to them looking at anything that might be arousing. What if a woman is wearing a regular, what if a man is turned on, which every man is, by an attractive woman in a nice dress? That's a turn on. So no, no, no, please answer. So is that bad? I'm going to answer, but let me unfold this a little bit.

I think pornography can sometimes be a difficult thing to define. I would say, and let me see if I can redefine it for you, material that depicts something that's intended to sexually arouse or replace replace a prostitute I mean the word pornography comes from two Greek words porne graph pain which means the writing or the drawing of the prostitutes it's meant to serve an erotic function and so I but what if the eroticism is then is then so I'm okay expressed with the wife I'm okay looking at breasts and I'm okay looking at bums. And if you go to the Sistine Chapel, you'll see that Catholics are perfectly comfortable with

nudity. But I think that nudity can be presented in a way that upholds and expresses the dignity of the person. So I could say, okay, I could look at that and marvel at God's creation and the beauty of woman and the beauty of man. But I think I could also look at a lingerie catalog and in my mind treat this person as a mere object. So I would say that in one aspect I'm okay looking at breasts, let's say, Sistine Chapel, but in another sense if I'm looking at a lingerie catalog with the intention of lusting that that wouldn't be okay. What if I'm looking at the lingerie catalog with the intention of getting my wife lingerie? I think the intention does matter, yeah.

Okay, all right. Yeah, we're not that far. I'm not advocating this. I know you're not and I really want that to get. Yeah, yes, it's very important, but I'm so worried. Remember, I come from the woman calling my show. I saw I saw pictures on my husband's computer. I'm devastated. So what am I supposed to say? You know what? You're right to be devastated. Your husband is a real sinner. He treats you as an object. What would you like me to say to her? Here's what I'd like you to say. I think you could I don't think you have to say. Here's what I'd like you to say. I think you could I don't think you have to say I Think I would I think I would begin by validating her pain I wouldn't dismiss it by and I'm not saying you did this because I haven't heard this sort of phone call

But I wouldn't dismiss it by saying you're wrong to be hurt. I would say There are many things out there that your husband. I'm sure loves you very much And that's my first question to her. And you're right. This is an act. Does he love you and is he loving and do you have a good love life? And I, yeah. And so if the answers are all yes, go on. So if the answers are all yes, I would say, well, since he loves you, and since this bothers you, there are some excellent resources that I'd love to tell you about that could

help him be free of pornography. Because surely you would say, if a man is looking at pornography and his wife's heartbroken, you're not saying well, she's wrong to be and he doesn't need to change. If she's heartbroken, wouldn't you want to say to the man here are some ways that you could quit? Yes, I would want to say to both of them, I understand why you're heartbroken, because you think that he loves her more than you or as much as you and I want you to know that's not the case at all. I don't know if that's the only reason she'd be heartbroken. I don't think it's that she loves, I think that pornography trains us in selfishness.

Yes, so it also legitimizes. So what if he says to her, well look you saw lingerie ads and I'm dying to buy you some really cute lingerie. Would you be okay with that? I would say that we're verging on what's sometimes called the fallacy of the beard. You ever heard of this? Just because you don't know when something begins, it doesn't mean you can't say what a thing is.

This isn't a beard. But in three months, if I didn't shave, it would be. And just because you don't know when it started Doesn't mean you can't say what a beard is and I would say that there are blurry lines I would agree with you like a Victoria's Secret fashion show. Is that pornography? I'd say probably what about but is it? Is it less bad than other forms of pornography? Yes, not all pornography is equal some Really not that far apart. I, my biggest, one of my biggest teachings is that there are levels of sin and there are levels of

good and that we should not, listen, I don't think this is not a Catholic thing, but many Protestants who listen to my show Take issue with me when I say that God does not Regard stealing a stapler from the office as he does child molestation Right and they call me up and say Dennis love you, but I got to tell you a sin is a sin Yeah, no, we would part ways without... I know you would, yes, I know. Catholics and Jews believe in gradations of sin. Correct. Okay, so there are gradations in that arena as well. Yes, but I would say that just because something is less bad than something else, it doesn't make it good. So if you're saying... Okay, I'm not arguing it's good. So if you say...

I'm arguing it's not as bad as people often make it out to be. I am not arguing that it's good. In an ideal marriage, would my father not have subscribed to Playboy? I'll be prepared to say yes, however. Look at you, good job. Yes, yeah, but it doesn't gain you as much as you think because I saw their relationship for seven,

I didn't see it for 72 years obviously, but I saw it for the bulk of their life and I'm not making the respect with which he which he treated her. I'm sure he did. I'm not making the claim that you have pure, pristine, holy marriage and haven of filth. I'm not saying that those are only two options. Right, okay, so fine. So there are degrees. But if you're saying to the woman, better for him to look at porn than to commit adultery, then what I would say there is it might be less bad, all things being equal, right? But less bad doesn't make it good.

And if adultery can be analogized to shooting your marriage in the head, I would say pornography is the slow poisoning of it. And that there's a great deal of research that we go to back that up. Yes. Well, in fact, Dennis, I'm gonna get your book on Exodus. I promise to look at it. This is my book on pornography. It's a non-religious response to pro-porn arguments. I'll be very happy to read it, absolutely.

And I'll sign it so it'll be worth more in the garage sale one day. But there's no talk of sin, there's no scripture verses. It's all based on the 40 plus years of science that's coming out of academia from neuroscience So here's the question. Okay, so you see the reason I actually never talk about pornography He asked me you were asking me. I never do I certainly don't advocate it I don't even discuss it let alone advocate it. Mm-hmm, but it was asked and I and I and I

I sort of took a vow many years ago. I won't avoid questions Yeah, I wish I had I had known in advance it would be discussed. I would have said how much I'm horrified by the pornification of society, etc but we I want I want to there's we're on so many different Related but different tracks and it's a very important subject The Oh, yes, I was influenced by my parents marriage

As we're all influenced by our parents marriage if you see your father beat your mother you think that's normal and you end up beating your life Because my father I mean the thought that he would ever lift it he wouldn't it's so inconceivable to me all he did was was tell his sons how much he loved their mother I mean constantly so what I saw was a man got playboy and loved his wife for 72 years. She knew he got playboy and loved her husband and knew he loved her for 72 years. So that's what I saw. And I'm not going to sit here as their child and say, this was really awful. When I can't say it because I would be lying.

But if you ask me, is there an ideal? I will argue, okay, there is an ideal. But the human condition is messy. So back to our earlier question, where we differ on can a loving husband in the bedroom ever see his wife as a sex object? And I said, that's good. can a loving husband in the in the bedroom ever See his wife as a sex object and I said that's good See that's there finally. We have a real difference. I actually think that is a positive. I don't know if we do have a disagreement

If by sex object you mean you find your wife sexually desirable, I don't know what the difference is What's the difference? I think I would say right subject, like man is made and man makes his own ends, right? Slavery is wrong because we take a man who makes his own ends and would like to fulfill them. When I talk about objectification, I guess I'm talking about a sort of evacuation of the subject of the person. I'm not concerned about her. I'm not concerned about her I'm not gonna draw you draw an inference that I'm not implying and that's why I said

Disagree, we may not that would be great to resolve it. I'm totally happy with that if that happens How you treat her is not that you will treat her badly the moment women don't say i'm crazy about my husband's legs okay but a man may not say it well that's true fair enough okay i i i admit i'll ask you okay uh but every man thinks that way, if there's a part of her body that is particularly a turn on, to use the term, to him. That is objectification. Women don't do that.

Women don't, very, I mean, young women do. Oh, he's got a great butt. By objectification, do you mean I find a part of my wife's body that I find attractive sexually? Yeah. Yeah. All right Well, I I suppose that for me objectification means Sort of subordinating the good of my wife You have drawn a behavioral

Inference from a thought and I don't yeah But see I still am not convinced that this sharp distinction or the distinction You're cuz I've heard Ben Shapiro say something similar And I so I don't know if this is as you say more a behaviorist kind of Jewish Because I think he said something like I don't really care if you have racist thoughts. I care about how you act That's right. I said that to the group tonight. I don't care if people dislike Jews I care how they treat us, but if my son or daughter, you're right I would tell the same to my child if If my child said, I don't like this group. But I think this is what our Lord

Jesus Christ is doing, in which he's saying, your righteousness has to pass out of the Pharisees. It's not enough that you don't murder. You should not want to. It's not enough that you don't commit adultery. You should not say, fuel the flame that could lead to that. I happen want to it's not enough that you don't commit adultery. You should not say but yes fuel the flame I happen to think it's a good thing not to want a murder I subscribe to that But there's a very interesting Hebrew phrase Translating from the Hebrew so it'll be a bit awkward in the place that a penitent stands the most righteous person doesn't stand And I extrapolate from that

That if you have bad thoughts and don't act on them You're on a higher moral plane than the guy who never has a bad thought. I don't get any credit for not molesting children I'm as interested in children sexually as I am in bananas or peach trees. Okay? So I get no credit for not molesting a child. But the sick dude who does want to and doesn't, he gets a lot of credit. So speaking of pedophilia, suppose a man says, I view animated child porn. So there's no real victim in that sense of child pornography, which we both agree is horrendous.

And by viewing animated child porn, it prevents me from acting out sexually on a child. Now I deny that. I think that pornography inflames us to then want to act those fantasies out. And I think there's good studies that back that up. But surely you wouldn't say to the man who views animated child pornography, that's not bad so long as you don't act it out. Wouldn't you want to help this poor sick dude? Yes I would but I'm thrilled that he's not acting it out. Agreed. Okay, well that's big. Yeah. We're both thrilled that he might have a poor substitute,

but it is a substitute. If that were the case, no child is being used. It's all animated. And, uh, and he, would you use the word evil of animated child pornography? Cause I certainly would. No, I would use evil only with behavior. That's where we might differ. Forgetting the sex issue. You can't be evil You didn't do evil if you thought evil you need if I'm masturbating to animated pictures of pornography. I'm not doing something evil That's correct. Yeah, I think that's I think that's despicable. Yeah, really? Yes, of course

Who is being hurt you have to have a bottle? I'll tell you there's at least two people being hurt There's the person who's poisoning himself by encouraging you're right, acting out on children, and there's also the animator. Okay, wait a minute. We both are aching for him not to have those fantasies. I agree with you, but I... But you won't call it evil. I won't call a fantasy evil. There's too much real evil on earth for me to start being preoccupied with people's thinking It's not just thinking it's him masturbating to yes. He's okay. Okay, so now the real question about the whole pornography issue is not pornography It's masturbation There is a catholic tradition. I disagree. I think it's both I think both masturbation is evil, but I think pornography is a greater evil. I don't think masturbation is evil

Okay, that's and by the way, I admit that within Orthodox Judaism there is, when I was a counselor at Orthodox Jewish camp, the kids were told by some of their rabbis that masturbation is like murder. And there is also that, there is a statement like that? I certainly wouldn't make that statement. Okay, I do believe that in Catholic theology there is, there is, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no do believe that in Catholic theology there is... No, no, no. No Catholic is saying that murder is equivalent to masturbation. Okay, all right, good. You might say that both are grave sins, but you wouldn't say that masturbation is a gravest sin. Even within murder, patricide would be a gravest sin.

So since we both believe murder is always wrong, obviously self-defense is killing, not murder, so murder is always wrong. Child molestation is always wrong. Is masturbation always wrong? What about a man whose wife and I had this example now you may say well if you take an extreme example It's not fair. But if you say always I have to take a real-life example of a man I knew who Adored his wife. I knew them when they were both Welsh. She got Alzheimer's at a very early age in her 50s, and he dressed her and bathed her and cleaned her up for a decade. And if this man, with a wife who no longer recognized him, masturbated to get rid of his sexual tension and stayed to take care of his wife. You would not, you would say that was evil.

I would, because I think that evil is the way things shouldn't be. And I think the sexual act exists for union and to masturbate is to thwart the end of that natural act. I also think what, what we haven't taken into account yet is an industry that brutalizes women. That's often involved in trafficking. Well, that's why I said I'm against all of that. I'm, I'm, I'm on your side on that. Yeah. Yes. I was talking about pictures, still pictures of models. Yes. But I'm still saying that this brutalizes women. I think it's like who,

what woman would you like him to look at? Like your wife, your daughter, my daughter, your, would you be comfortable with someone you know and love being looked at like that? I wouldn't. But it's you're using, um, you're, you're, you're, you're bringing the emotional. I would say you're doing that. I think you're, you're doing that when you use their story.

So I would not deny that this is a virtuous man in many respects, laudable, who I could learn a great deal from. No, no, you use the word evil. That's what's right. Okay, you define evil in a way I don't the way things shouldn't be yes, and I would refer to natural evil So if a man is born blind, this is a natural evil if a stone is blind This is not a natural evil, but I would also refer to moral evil as this is the way things shouldn't be so we yeah we disagree on yes, so I'm trying to think of, okay, is it, it shouldn't be that kids spend as much time as they do on social media.

Do we both agree with that, that they spend too much time? Yes. Would you call it evil if they did spend too much time? Probably yes. Okay. I wouldn't say it was wouldn't, I wouldn't say it was wrong, but I wouldn't say it was evil. Yeah. So how, so I've shared with you how I define evil. How do you define it? Is the deliberate infliction of hurt on another human being. So I would say that pornography involves the deliberate infliction of hurt on

another human being through the photographing of a person. So that would include lingerie models. Again, I'm not sure. I don't have a, I don't know where to draw that line. Men are as capable of masturbating to lingerie models as they are to awful stuff. Right, so what I think the goal should be is to line up the goal of the artist or the photographer,

and the goal and the intention of the viewer with the dignity of the viewer with the dignity of the human person because I can view something non pornographic and say masturbate to it right the problem isn't with the thing I'm looking at the problems with me likewise likewise real quick like likewise I could look through a pornographic magazine and feel nothing but pity for these women who don't know their dignity in that case objectively it's fair rafi but subjectively it isn't for me right so i think you want both to line up with the dignity of the

human person created in the morning to line up with dignity is totally admirable calling the non lining up is a lingerie model losing her dignity and you may say yes yeah i think i would say yes okay yeah but again i want to make a huge distinction between these gradations. Well, and so do I When people say pornography they're thinking of the most Awful behaviors. Well, let me ask you this then because it sounded like you were saying that if a man views pornography and thereby doesn't commit adultery It's okay. No, I didn't say okay. I said it wasn't all horrible. Fair enough. Right. Thank you for the correction. Yeah but you've also said that you're very much opposed to Violent pornography obviously if a man says I need to watch violent pornography, so I don't commit adultery

Do you say well, okay, that's that's less bad too. Or do you condemn that with a greater severity? Well, because it's the odds are that the people in it are being hurt. What if they're willing to be hurt? What if they enjoy being hurt? Then I'm more or less subscribed to your vision of the issue. But again, I want to remind everybody watching or listening that my vision was of Playboy of the 1960s when I was a teenager, which would be regarded today as- Not even worthy of Netflix. I mean, what we once called hardcore,

we now call softcore. Yes, okay, so- What we once called softcore, we now call Netflix. But I have to ask you and many others who feel as you do, and I respect it, uh, is, uh, is everything, well, well I did ask you, I mean, once you say masturbation under all circumstances is evil, that's that, I will admit we, we part company. Yeah. And that's fine. I mean, this is,

we knew we would disagree. That's fine. And there's part company. Yeah, and that's fine. I mean this is we knew we would disagree That's fine. And right. There's also a lot of things we agree about There was one I don't want to say his name because I may be wrong, but I believe there was one major Evangelical leader, I mean major he was a household name for a while Dobson. I think He was a household name for a while Dobson. I think I don't want to miss speak here. Yeah, maybe Thursday you can look this up But I believe Dobson at one point justified masturbation in certain circumstances Yeah See what I respect about you and what I respect about Jordan Peterson is that very often you tell us to take the hard road

You're like, yes, it's bloody hard. But be a man like rise up choose the harder path choose the more virtuous path I just wish that you you or Peterson would be more emphatic when it comes to sexual sins that of course you're tempted to it Of course, you want to do it. What's interesting isn't why people masturbate to pornography. That's obvious What's interesting is why people decide that again? Don't throw in the word pornography you Masturbate alone is a sin to you and evil. That's correct. What if he's masturbating to an image he makes up in his brain?

If he's masturbating to nothing, I would consider it an evil. Okay, fair. Okay. Yeah. It's a... Dobson? James, Dr. James Dobson in about 1987, the quote appears to be, it is my opinion that masturbation is not much of an issue

with God. It's a normal part of adolescence. Indeed, Jesus did not mention it, dot, dot, dot. Jesus didn't mention a lot of things. Well, yeah. But well, it's not insignificant, nor does the Hebrew Bible talk about it. The spilling of seed with Onan, from which we get Onanism, the sin was not that he spilled the seed.

The sin was that he didn't have intercourse with his brother's widow. So, I mean, the Catholic would say that reason would show us that masturbation is disordered, that pornography is disordered, because it takes a natural act, which is good, and it thwarts the end of it. That's why I use the example of... What about a man who can't attract a woman? He should spend his life obviously then... Yes, because masturbation is not like urination. It's not something you need to do or else you're going to become neurotic and die somehow. You're not going

to find anybody in the morgue with a tag on their toe that says virgin or something. Right, okay. All right. And I think it's a pornified culture that's given us this idea. Let me say that the ideal life would involve none of this. I am not preoccupied with the ideal life. I am preoccupied with a good life. As I often say, I am not interested in making saints. I am interested in making good people. And it is so hard to make good people in a post-communist, post-Nazi world, post-Is post Islam, it's not post yet, Islamic terrorist

world, I admit I am preoccupied with real evil rather than non-idyllic behavior. I admit it. And maybe to clarify my thought which might make it more acceptable to you, I would say that there are circumstances in which masturbating or even looking at pornography could be a less grave sin due to habit, due to immaturity. But see, even in secular culture, we make fun of masturbation. We don't seem to be proud of masturbation. Even atheists, there's this big move to stop being a cream puff and masturbating into a sock and instead of instead of that

Control your sexual desire. You're not a dog To be neutered you're someone who has mastery over your lower passions So I have a desire for food But if I eat like a pig then this is gonna be bad for my health and this would be the sin of gluttony I could have the desire to masturbate. But the difference is you can eat me. I could have the desire to masturbate. But the difference is you can eat. Yes, but you're equating orgasm with eating and it's not the same thing. You did.

No, you're saying that I'm equating them to show that they're dissimilar in that if I don't eat I die. But it sounds like what you're saying is, well, but the man who never has a woman, surely he should masturbate or else what? And I'm saying he's not going to die. He's not going to die He's not going to die right and I so I think the man should have mastery over that passion and use it appropriately That's what I would say. Okay Ideally, I agree with you. So one way that's important that I said that okay ideally ideally ideally but as I said like in the case of marriages, I want them to love each other and

By the way, let me just this is not utterly germane to our our debate here, but Having spoken to so many couples for so many years I have a phrase which is Relative related to this and but not exactly this, but related. You should make love outside the bedroom and have sex inside the bedroom. I love it. But I think I know what you mean. Oh, I'm glad you love it.

Well, let's see, if I'm ignoring my wife, if I'm not doing acts of kindness towards her throughout the day, then to expect to come together and be intimate in that most intimate of embraces is selfish. But I want to love my bride throughout the day, sacrifice for her as it were. Right, but what I'm saying more than that. Okay. That, of course I'm saying that, but I am saying more than that. I'm also saying that the bedroom might be a place for the non-holy to express itself, because I believe we're created in God's image and animals' image. And sex allows the animal under holy circumstances, which is matrimony to both Jews and

Catholics that the word for for marriage in Hebrew Kiddushin means holy I mean that is the whole Talmudic volumes on marriage and sex is called Kiddushin which means many Catholics know means holy so I Schmueli Botath is a bearded Orthodox rabbi, I don't know if you're familiar with him and he wrote a book called kosher sex His argument is as follows And he's very anti porn very

His argument is Anything that the couple the married couple agrees to in the bedroom They should do that. That's the place and it's why he calls it kosher sex. It wasn't by the way universally received well among among some religious Jews III Your views are not all that different from many Orthodox Jews. Why was he opposed to pornography?

For the same reasons you are. Oh, well. Thank you so much for watching that clip. If you wanna watch the entire thing, go over to matfrad.locals.com. Locals is like a non-woke Patreon, so if you wanna support the work of Pines with Aquinas, you can do that over there, matfrad.locals.com. And when you do,

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