Pints With Aquinas - Here’s why Muslims Are Coming to Christ | Ft. Fr. Jason Charron

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

In today's Last Call, Matt Fradd lays out the "Islamic Dilemma." He then sits down with Father Jason Charron to discuss the growing phenomenon of Muslims converting to Christianity. Together they announce an upcoming pilgrimage opportunity to journey to the Seven Churches of Revelation. Join them in Turkey October 27 - November 6, 2026!  📚Resources Mentioned:  Pilgrimage to Turkey: https://www.signaturetours.com/JCharron26 PWA with David Wood: https://youtu.be/qOjtBsyJ5V4?si=ayg96aWd8PZCfppz Pints: Last Call Ep. 4 - - - Today's Sponsors: Hallow: Deepen your personal relationship with God today. Visit https://hallow.com/MattFradd to get 3 months free. Relay: Ready to overcome porn? Visit https://joinrelay.app/pints and use code PINTS for 7 days free. Seven Weeks Coffee: Save up to 25% with promo code 'PINTS' at https://sevenweekscoffee.com/PINTS - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe⁠⁠ 🍿 The Pendragon Cycle: Rise of the Merlin is now streaming exclusively on DailyWire+ https://dwplus.watch/ThePendragon - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠⁠⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠⁠⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠⁠⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch⁠⁠ 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This winter, stay warm. Tap the banner to order your groceries online at voila.ca. Enjoy in-store prices without leaving your home. You'll find the same regular prices online as in-store. Many promotions are available both in-store and online, though some may vary. What if I told you that the Quran, if taken seriously, actually ends up refuting Islam. That's what I'll be arguing for today. This argument has stirred serious debate in Islamic apologetic circles, and while many have tried to answer it, have scrambled to answer it,

the problem has not gone away. To be clear, this is not about politics per se. It's not about culture. It's not about what you personally think of your Muslim friends or co-workers, who I'm sure or maybe kind, sincere, and well-meaning people. It's about whether the Quran, when taken seriously, ends up refuting Islam itself. And if that's true, the implications are enormous. There are two basic ways to critique any belief system. You can critique it externally by judging it according to standards it doesn't accept, or you can judge it internally by judging it according to standards it does accept.

And so an external critique of Islam will judge it according to standards that come from outside its own sources, whether philosophical, historical or theological, whereas an internal critique will begin from the Quran itself and ask whether Islam can stand on its own terms. The Islamic dilemma is this kind of argument. It doesn't impose Christian assumptions onto Islam. Instead, it begins with what the Quran itself says and follows those claims. to their logical conclusion. One of the strongest internal critiques of Islam is what's commonly called the Islamic dilemma. When followed carefully, it presents Muslims with a serious problem that can't be resolved

without undermining the authority of Islam itself. The Quran repeatedly affirms that God revealed genuine scripture before Muhammad, specifically the Torah and the gospel. It speaks of these writings as guidance and light, given by Allah to earlier prophets.

Just as importantly, the Quran commands Jews and Christians to judge by what God revealed in those scriptures. Nowhere does the Quran clearly or explicitly teach that the Torah or the gospel were lost, corrupted or unreliable at the time of Muhammad. The Quran doesn't merely acknowledge earlier scripture in passing. Instead, it repeatedly speaks of the Torah

and the gospel as real, authoritative revelations from God that were present and functioning in the world of Muhammad. For example, Surah 544 states that the Torah in which was guidance and light was revealed by Allah and used for judgment. Likewise, Surah 546 affirms that Jesus was given the gospel. Wherein is guidance and light, confirming what came before it? These verses describe living scripture that guide God's people, not lost or corrupted texts. More striking still, the Quran commands Jews and Christians to judge by these very writings. Surah 547 instructs Christians to judge by what Allah has revealed in the gospel.

Surah 568 tells both Jews and Christians that they have no firm standing unless they uphold the Torah and the gospel. These commands only make sense if those script. were accessible and trustworthy in the 7th century when the Quran was written. Finally, Surah 1094 tells Muhammad himself that if he's in doubt, he should ask those who read the scripture before him. That appeal would be meaningless if those scriptures were already corrupted or unreliable. Taken together, these passages show that the Quran affirms the Torah and the gospel as genuine revelation, present, readable and authoritative at the time of Muhammad.

This creates a dilemma with only two possible and mutually exclusive options. Option one, the Torah and Gospel available in the 7th century were trustworthy. If that's true, then Islam faces a decisive contradiction. The gospel preached in Muhammad's time proclaims core Christian doctrines that Islam explicitly denies. It teaches that Jesus is the son of God that he was crucified and that he rose from the dead. The Quran denies all three. So if the gospel is trustworthy, then the Quran contradicts God's prior revelation. That would mean that the Quran can't be from God. Option two, the Torah and gospel were corrupted before Muhammad. This option also collapses Islam. If the scriptures were corrupt,

then Allah either failed to preserve his earlier revelation or allowed his followers to be misled for centuries. Worse still, the Quran commands Christians to judge by the gospel they possess and appeal to those scriptures as confirmation of Muhammad's message. That doesn't make sense if those texts were already unreliable. In that case, the Quran would be affirming and appealing to corrupted documents which undermines its claims to divine wisdom. Either way, whatever option you choose, Islam is trapped. It can't affirm the Bible without contradicting itself, and it can't deny the Bible without undermining its own authority. Muslims will often try to escape this dilemma by claiming that the original Torah and gospel were pure, but later they were altered. Yet that claim is historically unsupported.

We possess New Testament manuscripts that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, and they teach the same doctrines Christianity teaches today. There's no evidence of a lost non-trinitarian, non-crucified version of the gospel that Islam could appeal to. That so-called original gospel exists only as a theological escape hatch. The dilemma is therefore decisive. If the Bible is true, Islam is false. And if the Bible is false, then the Quran is false for affirming it. Islam depends on earlier revelation that it cannot consistently affirm or deny. Christianity by contrast welcomes scrutiny of its historical claims.

It stands or falls on events in history, especially the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If Christ didn't rise from the dead, then Christianity is false. Islam, on the other hand, avoids history by, rewriting it centuries later, but in doing so, it contradicts the very scriptures it claims to respect. So, the Islamic dilemma doesn't merely challenge Islam from the outside, as we've seen. Instead, it exposes an internal incoherence at the heart of its theology, and a revelation that contradicts itself can't be from God. If you're interested in taking a deeper dive into this topic, check out my recent interview with David Wood. I'll link to it in the description.

Now, later on in the show, I'm going to be sitting down with Father Jason Chiron to talk about something remarkable. Why, right now, Muslims around the world are converting to Christianity in significant numbers. And speaking of Father Jason, I want to let you know something. You can join him, my wife, Cameron, and me this October for a pilgrimage through Asia Minor as we visit the seven churches of Revelation in modern day Turkey. I'll put a link to this pilgrimage below. please sign up quickly because this is bound to sell out fast. But before we get to that, let's take a look at some of the comments that have come in recently here on YouTube. All right, this first comment, and I haven't read these ahead of time, so let's have a look here.

Roy Tavius says, as a former ordained Baptist preacher, if you can come to the reality of the real presence, then you're only a step or two away from converting to Catholicism. This is something I completely agree with. You know, when I talk to, Protestants, who I love, who are open to Catholicism, they have a myriad of objections to the Catholic faith. And I'll say to them, all right, what is the top objection that you have? And they might say something like prayers to the saints or the Eucharist being really the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. And then I say to them, okay, then let's focus on that, since that's your major objection. Because what I realized is, if I can help them answer that, or at least help

them see why we as Catholics believe it, then all of the beliefs that are lesser than that, they should agree, could be answered as well. So I think that's absolutely right. If you want to look at an interesting debate I did, I don't do many debates, but me and my friend Cameron Batuzzi back when he was Protestant debated the Eucharist and by God's grace he since became Catholic. So you can check that out. The final comment comes from Frankie Bayer 6632. After coming back into the faith really hard a few months ago, I felt the urge to start going a daily mass twice a week, receiving our Lord more frequently, has made me hunger for the Eucharist even more. Going three days without him feels like an eternity. Glory to Jesus Christ. Yes, we can fall into the trap of settling

for quick, immediate, earthly comforts to try to satisfy that deep yearning we have for the good Jesus. But ultimately, if we're doing that, and if we're doing that in lieu of the intimacy that God wants to have with us, it will never ultimately satisfy us. I think a good prayer you could pray is, and this is a good prayer for all of us. Jesus, feed me with hunger for you. Give me a dissatisfaction with the delights of the world and infuse within me a thirst for your sacred mysteries. Amen. Well, thanks for those comments. Keep them up. Now we're going to sit down with my good friend, Father Jason Sharon. You're not going to want to miss this. This episode is sponsored by the greatest prayer and meditation app on the internet. You know it. It's called Hello. Hello is the number one Catholic

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The truth is, you don't have a porn problem. You have a pain problem. Porn just happens to be the shortcut your brain takes to escape that pain. And if all you ever do is fight the behavior, you'll never actually hear. heal. The deeper work, the real task is letting Christ meet you in the pain so you can begin to find peace where you used to seek escape. Here's the thing. Men do not, I think, generally speaking, do not need to be convinced that, hey, porn's a problem. We all kind of realize it's a problem. What we need is a way out. So if you actually want freedom, check out Relay today.

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Tell us why, in your experience, more and more Muslims are beginning to turn to Jesus Christ. Well, because Mary is doing to them what she did to the butlers at the wedding at Cana. Do whatever he tells you. And she's not a signpost to herself. She's just a sign that always points to her son. And the things that have been happening among Muslims indicate that the time is getting very close for for mass conversions, I believe, to Christ through Mary. What have you been seeing personally?

Well, in the past year, I've been to a number of Marian shrines around the world, pilgrimage sites, and, you know, Muslims go there. So it was a major Marian site in India. It was Ephesus in Turkey. It was Zetun in Egypt. And it was St. Mary Major in Rome. And at each of these places, I have contact and experience with Muslims, Muslim women mostly. And they are effusive in their love and devotion to Mary.

Tell me about one story. Well, one, for example, is the most recent one. In Rome, I came out of a church and I stumbled upon a Muslim woman, Persian, and I wanted to evangelize. So I begin talking. and we're talking about the situation in Iran because it was like an Iranian protest and she's protesting against what's happening in Iran. Pray for those poor people.

But then I tell her I'm a priest and I barely get the word out of my mouth and she's like, Jesus. I'm like, yes, Jesus, he's my boss. Tell me about him. I've heard about Christianity. What? And she's like, and then I take my eyes off

and I say, well, I kind of look down. I said, let's just pray. first and I open my eyes and as I look at her, her mascara is all down on the chin within seconds, like just tears gushing. She received the gift of the gift of tears. So I put my hands on her and if I had a bottle of water with me, I would have like baptized her like St. Philip, you know, and the Ethiopian. But she says, I want, we want to know about Jesus. All we know about God is this, you know, commander of fear. But we've heard about Jesus and his command on the cross.

She said command on the cross. You know, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. And so they're primed. They're ready. And so I kind of had to pull her in, you know, because there's a lot of people around. And so that's just my latest experience.

They are ready for Jesus. Are they practicing Muslims? Well, the Iranians, the Iranian woman I spoke with most recently, they're disaffected from religion because you have to understand, you know, for 47 years, you know, they've excluded outside Christian missionaries. And so their only experience of organized religion is Islam. And so they're not practicing. But it's not as though they don't love God. They want him. but they want a father because their hearts were made by a father.

And the religion they've been given is a religion of a commander, of a judge, but they were made for a father. And they know we call Godfather. Just two great memories that you and I have shared together came to mind that show what a beautiful heart you have to, just what you just said there. Like, I want to evangelize this woman. Actually, I got three. All right.

Number one, we were in. Ukraine, you and I, and we were walking back to our hotel, and we walked past these Jehovah's witnesses. And 10 minutes had gone by, and we were just about at our hotel, and you're like, I got to go. I'm like, where are you going? I'm going to evangelize the Aryans, and you took off. The second one, we're in Istanbul, and you and I did night prayer in Hagia Sophia, which has now turned into a mosque. And then thirdly, I think when we arrived in Turkey, you'll remember we were standing there in line forever with all these Muslims around us. And we finally get there and we realize we're in the wrong line.

And here I was complaining and you're like, no, I got, you had your giant crucifix. Like they got to see Jesus Christ. I love, I love your heart for evangelism. Yeah, well, that's what we're made for. Yeah, that's what we're made for. It kind of, it keeps me on guard because I want to be a conduit to Jesus for these people. So when I want to complain or when I want to be lazy, I realize, no, no, no, I'm on the clock. You know, I've only got so many years. I've got to produce fruit.

And so, yeah, that just evangelism brings me back to be a better Christian. Now, I want to talk more about Muslims, but I also want to let people know that you and I are leading a pilgrimage in October, and people are invited to come with us. What's the basics? Yeah, so again, we're going to Mary's home. Ephesus, an actual Marion site, pilgrimage site, and then we're going to the seven churches of Ephesus, and we're going to Hagia Sophia. We're going to, like, the heart of apostolic Christianity, because most of these great martyrs who bore witness to Christ in the antiquity, it was in Asia Minor. You know, that's why all these letters that Paul writes and that the seven

church that John writes to, you know, they're all in Asia Minor, modern day Turkey. So we're reclaiming that for Jesus. I want it back, you know. And that's what we're doing, be, I think, October 27th until November 6th, or 26th until November 6th. We'll have a link below. People can click. We do invite you to please come as my wife will be leading there. I'll be leading with you. You'll be leading it, of course, the three of us. And spots are limited. Please sign up quickly because I don't want people to be angry. And it's not, it's not tourism where we take photos. This is pilgrimage where we leave our tears. And we have divine liturgy. We're going into the sites of the martyrs. We're going to the site of St. Philip, you know,

We're going to the site of the martyrdom of Polycarp, one of the great proto-martyrs. And we're going to be praying there. We're going to be going into the scriptures there in the very site where these apostles wrote to these people. And we'll be praying the divine liturgy. The same, you know, Eucharistic mystery that they prayed 2,000 years ago, will be there. I'm so excited. Now, one thing you've said to me, and I think it's true, is that Christians really aren't

on guard against Muhammadism. the way they ought to be. And here we're not talking about being hostile towards our Muslim neighbors and co-workers. We, of course, love them and want kindness for them. We also want truth for them. Yeah, we want truth for them, and we have to prepare the ground so that we don't become a stumbling block when they begin asking the big questions about truth, because they sense that there are inconsistencies in Islam, but they honestly don't believe there's really anywhere, there's any off-ramp. So when they can see that we're practicing those practices of faith that are primordial and we're doing it and we're adhering to it, then that builds trust, that builds respect.

And then they can lean into that with bigger questions. And so it's like the pillars are like fasting and pilgrimage. That is like if you look at ancient Babylonian ziggurrets, you look at Native American spirituality, you know, it's going on a journey with in getting, you know, dust on your feet. And it is fasting, going without food, making sure that you suffer, that you have to call out to God for strength so that you desire him more than your body desires bread. And when you get to that point, Muslims will respect that. We can't argue them into the truth. But we can, you know, we can show our.

love for the truth in the flesh, you know, by our journey, by our fasting. So we can't be a roadblock to them. And they're pumped and they're ready. I think a lot of Muslims, they just need to see that Catholics are doing the basic religious observances that they do. And that's, you know, pilgrimage fasting and, oddly enough, Mary. We can't allow them to outdo, uh, us in love of Mary. What happened in Cairo, is it? In Egypt with this apparition? Well, this is what's happening.

And I don't want to pretend to be an expert on Islam. You know, I'm the dumbest guy in the room. The truth is. But, you know, in going to these places, like in St. Catherine's monastery, in Zaytune in Egypt and in Ephesus in Istanbul, is you can't deny they have a love for her. And so much of that comes down to these dreams that Muslims are. having of Jesus and Mary. I hear about this.

Yes. And when I was in Egypt, I asked a Coptic priest privately. I don't want to give his name because they get in trouble. I said, is there any truth to this? And he says, yes, we can't evangelize. And so God is doing it on his terms through Jesus and Mary. And people, the most unlikely of Muslims, are receiving dreams of Mary and Jesus. And they're becoming Christians.

They're being baptized secretly. And one of the great signs of this happened over the course of more than a month in Zaytun, Cairo. And that is the turning point. Like we Catholics, we know about Our Lady of Fatima, our Lady of Lourdes. But if you go to Egypt and you speak about Mary, they'll always say Zaytune. Really? Zaytune. And that's the oil I gave you is from there.

She appeared there in the late 60s. and it was 250,000 people. What? 250,000 people. And the first visionary and one who received the miraculous healing wasn't a Christian. It was a Muslim mechanic at the garage, you know, across the street. They saw this lady up on a roof and he's shutting down the garage for the day. You know, it's the end of a shift.

You know, let's get home. And he sees this lady on the roof and he thinks she's going to commit suicide. and he points up to her, he had a gangrous finger. Next day he was going to get it chopped off. And he points up and says, Lady, don't do it. And he calls the other guy and says, Lady, come down.

This lady on the roof of the Coptic church. And she doesn't say anything. But more people begin to gather and they realize, yeah, it's a lady up there, but there's like a light. But it's not coming to her. it's coming out of her. And then police arrived.

And then government officials arrive. And then they shut off power to the neighborhood to prove that if this is being generated by something. Well, they shut off all the power and the light just shines. And this goes on for one day, two days, one week, two weeks. And by the end of this, the president of Egypt comes incognito. And he's convinced of the truth of it. such that he orders some of the surrounding buildings to be leveled to make room for more people.

Whoa. It's written by secularists, Muslims, Christians, people of every walk of life. They testify and there are pictures of it. So, I mean, it's incontrovertible. And the proof of this further is the number of conversions that happened. And she never says a word. Wow. She never says a word.

Yeah, it's beautiful. So it's interesting because when I encountered Protestants who are open to say praying the Holy Rosary, I'm like, oh, you're done for. Like you'll be a Catholic within a month. Yeah. And it sounds like you're saying something similar is happening with the Muslims. Yes. Why is that? Why are they open to our lady?

Because she is presented as the only perfect, pure, well, the only pure, pure. chased one in scripture in in the Quran even Muhammad is not said to be pure you know because Allah in the Quran is is excursiating you know Mohammed you know stop talking about all your faults and your sins and all this stuff um Mary has said and she has a whole chapter where she's extolled and she's said to be the mother of of the word of Allah and so they they they they gravitated to her. You know, in the reference to Muhammad's daughter, you know, it said that she is exalted among all women except

Miriam, Mary. So they are thirsting for that same love and mercy that was implanted in them at the moment of time. We recognize, we don't search for a creed, we search for a face, you know, and that face the face of mercy. And that's not projected by the God of Islam.

It's a capricious God who can be maniacal. And so they strive for it. And the only off-ramp in the Quran, really, is Mary. Because if they say that it's Jesus, well, then they're committing shirk, you know, blasphemy, and there's no salvation for you. So they can't do that. And this is really the proper engagement with Islam begins with Mary.

Because it's not Muhammad and Jesus. It's all backwards. Because Muhammad gives birth to the word of the Quran. So the parallel, when we're going to engage Muslims, it has to be Mary to Muhammad. and the Quran to Jesus. Yeah. Lay that out, please.

Oh, yeah. Explain that. So, it's beautiful. Yeah, it's what I've come to speaking with these people is that Mary gives birth to the Word of God. And Muhammad... So it's like, Muhammad isn't the anti-Christ. He's the anti-Mary in this way of thinking of it.

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, Muhammad, Islam is a false religion with a false scripture with a false prophet. But if we want to engage them, we have to begin where they're at. Just like early Christian missionaries did with the pagan Greeks, the pagan Romans, they began where they were at. And so he is the one who, Muhammad for them, is the one who gives them their word.

And Mary is the one who gives us the word. Wow. And the effective way I've been thinking about this is that the script. scriptures, the Quran speaks of Jesus as the word of Allah. Well, then let's just accept that. Let's not get into the Trinitarian debates, because as soon as we get into the Trinitarian debates, Nicaea, Constantinople, all these categories, hypostasis,

we lose them because in their mind, that's automatically shirk. They're condemned. They won't even open that door. So why do we have to compare Mary to Muhammad? is because that door is at least open. They love her. And they recognize her as being pure,

and if they're good scholars of the Quran, more pure than Muhammad. So they can't shut that down. In fact, they won't. So we enter in that round of the boxing ring, already winning round one. Wow. But as you go in deeper,

you see that this is where it's beautiful. The early, like, like Ironaeus, he didn't speak so much, or he spoke about Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but he also spoke about word, breath, and mind. And we have to do that with Muslims because they begin, they accept Jesus as word. But if God is the mind of the whole universe,

well, then surely you say Jesus is the word, so then to get a word out of your mind, you need something called ruach breath. And that's not three gods. That's not three persons because you have a mind and a word and a breath. That doesn't mean there are three Matfraads. Three aspects of one mat frad. And that's what we Christians mean.

And that's what they've misunderstood, the Muslims, is that God is the mind. And that mind has a word. And he breathes that word into the world. And the mouth, the physical mouth through which it came, is Mary. And those categories are already existing in the Quran. And all they need from us is to see that we share that love for Mary, that we share their religiosity of putting faith into action by going on pilgrimage somewhere. It doesn't have to be expensive, like maybe a holy place nearby.

Get dirt on your shoes and go there. And when you're done, stop out of tavern on the way back. You know, it's the incarnation. All of that is so critical. important to bringing them home. So I love coffee. Look at me. I'm using the word love. I love coffee and we've tried a lot of coffee over the years. Our sponsor today is seven weeks coffee and it's the one that my wife and I have landed on. Honestly, if you open up the cabinets above our espresso machine, it's just stuffed with seven week coffee espresso and it's not just great coffee. It's a brand built around values that we take seriously. Seven weeks coffee is America's pro-life coffee company on a mission to fund the pro-life movement, one cup of coffee at a time. Now you might be thinking, why are they called seven

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but I'm not going to keep buying coffee just because it has a great cause if the coffee's not excellent. You know, hand to my heart, it is actually excellent and we really love it in the frad household. So go to seven weeks coffee.com and save 15% forever when you subscribe. Plus get a free gift with your order and exclusively for my listeners use code pints for an extra 10% off your first order. That's a 25% total savings on your first order plus a free gift. Just use code pints at check. This idea of pilgrimage really has been lost on many Christians. Why should we recover it? Because the faith, as much as the sophists would like to have us believe,

the faith is not an idea. And the proof of it is that he took on a mother. The faith is not an abstraction. It's dirt on the shoes. It's blood on the shoes. on your hands with nails. It's incarnate. And so every time we go on pilgrimage,

we exert ourselves, just like God spent himself to come down among us. When we go on pilgrimage, we're demonstrating to him that we are exerting ourselves in honor to him because God entered time and space. Therefore, every space, but specific places have meaning.

This holy sepulchre, you know, St. Catherine's Monastery where people pray and die for the faith, those places take on meaning because God was born in specific places. He wasn't generally born as a human being. He was born as a human being as a man. He didn't just generally live among us.

He lived as an ordinary. guy in Nazareth. And therefore, our expression of the faith also has to be specific. I see. And it has to involve physicality, tears, dirt, sweat. What do you think Catholics get wrong about pilgrimage? In other words, there are pilgrimages all the time we hear about them. When we do it and we do it poorly, what is it we're doing? When it's done poorly, it's tourism. Okay. It's, you know, chinky religious tourism and you come back home with pictures and trinkets. Ah. That is, that's, that's really bad. If it's good pilgrimage, you leave your tears there and, and you come back with joy and a greater measure of humility. And what are you doing

to ensure that this pilgrimage that you and I are leading in October will be like that. Rooted in scripture, liturgy, and the physicality of where these people died for Jesus Christ. If you put the physical, you put the inspired word of God, and you put the divinizing action of the Eucharist all together. Those ingredients, they produce some greater than their parts, and that's the beginning of a saint. Now, you had mentioned to me that you were praying somewhere recently and perhaps had an encounter with somebody who was frustrated with you. I could be more specific. Maybe this happens regularly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember when we were praying in Hagia Sophia? Yeah. I guess what is it called now? I don't know. Oh, Hagia Sophia. Yeah, good. And we were doing our night prayer there because there was an icon, remember?

Yeah. Right in the entryway? Yeah, yeah, that was nice. But, okay, what happened with you recently? Well, it was just someone Where were you and what were you doing? Well, this was in Rome. Okay.

And, you know, I was kind of called out for my... Oh, I was talking about... You said a Muslim came up to you and poked you in the chest and told you to stop. Oh, yes. That was in Istanbul. So I went recently to Istanbul on my way back from St. Catherine's monastery in Egypt. And I went to a very beautiful ancient church, which the Turkish government has now converted into a mosque. It's the Chora church or country church. And it has the most exquisite mosaics.

So I went in there and I couldn't resist the urge in the entryway is massive. And this is not a museum. This is a church. So I begin to pray in Greek the holy God, holy mighty, holy and more to one. And I can't stop. I'm not showboating, but I'm not going to put under a bushel about. what the spirit has put on my heart. He wanted to be praised and extolled in that church, so I was going to do it, and I did it. And I just finished, and then I walked around a little bit,

looked at some more of the mosaics, and then I went into the, where they've converted and made into a mosque, so into the, where the liturgy used to be offered, into the nave of the church. And I went in there, looked around, there are some icons, and I came out, and I stood at the threshold,

and I looked back in to where the liturgy used to be. And I was just sad that it's just whitewashed and there's no divine liturgy there. No bloodless sacrifice offered to the Father. So I just made the sign of the cross. But the second time I was making it, Musen corner to me and said, no pray. So I thought, well, I'm going to finish the third time. And then he reminded me a second time, no pray. And I thought, well, I'm going to bust you up, buddy, or you're going to bust me up. So I'm going to leave. But I said a prayer for him. And it was, maybe it was an evangelical moment, you know, that Christians can be intimidated

when you're in a foreign land. You don't want to offend people. And maybe that was the first time he saw someone making the sign of the cross there. And he went home and Googled it. I don't know. But that was, that was that. Yeah, you know, like we can condemn religions as false, say, and yet still appreciate the virtues that they can engender.

Yep. For example, I mean, you know, well, the Muslims are a great example. I mean, praying five times a day and fasting as they do. I remember my wife and I were in New York City, we were flying home. And as we were leaving, we looked, I looked out of the plane window, and there was a little building, and the Muslims were praying right behind the building where no one could see them, but they were doing their prostrations. And I thought, come on, Christians.

I love what you said at the beginning of this show, though, right? It's like, they have to know that we're serious. Yes. This is not a, I mean, God bless the little old women. They're keeping the church together, especially the little old Filipino women. They're my favorite. But the point is, they can't think that this isn't a feminine religion. Yeah, yep.

So St. Paul, St. Peter, 2nd Peter chapter 2, verses 21 through 20, speaks about this. He says, it's better, it would be better for them to have never known the truth than to have known it and eschewed it and thrown it away. And so that's the state of modern secular Europe and Australia and North America is that it would be, I hate to say this, but it would be better if they were all Muslims now because Muslims are unquestionably serious about their commitment to God. It would be better had they been Muslim than had they been Christian and thrown it all the way as they have now. you know and so um uh we have to really get ourselves in order because when they start coming into our churches and they will i believe it i really believe it and it's not going to be to any credit of the church because we're doing a crappy job it's going to be through mary she's that signpost that directs them to jesus we had better not be stumbling blocks by our lack of fervor and our lack of

devotion and our lack of asceticism, you know, fasting, pilgrimage, things like that, things that cause us to cry and ache and have sweat, because those are basic benchmarks that are universal to mankind, praying, fasting, showing devotion to the deity. How can they believe in the exalted truth of the supernatural claims of the church if we don't adhere to the most elementary horizontal markers of true religion, which are fasting, prayer, pilgrimage,

incense, those things. Beautiful. Final thoughts. Final thoughts are they need to see the joy, the mercy, and the love that the Father has shown us in Christ.

And if we're not icons of that, they're going to stay in the darkness of their army. A God who is a commander can raise up soldiers, but a God who is a father raises up sons and daughters. We need to show them that we're sons and daughters. Well, thank you, and I'm pumped to be with you on this upcoming pilgrimage in October, hoping those who are watching will sign up, join,

and looking forward to being with you and those who come. Amen, glory to God. Amen. Thank you so much. I don't know about you, but every time I hear Father Jason, speak. I just, I want to run through a wall. I just feel so passionate. So thank you for watching. And again, we're going to put a link to this pilgrimage that him and I and my good wife will be leading

later on in the year. Sales, the spots are going to go quick. So please sign up as soon as you can. And do me a favor. Let us know in the comments below if you too have been hearing about Muslims converting to Christianity. God bless you. Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything. Like packing a spare stick. I like to be prepared. That's why I remember, 988, Canada's Suicide Crisis Helpline. It's good to know, just in case.

Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime. 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline is funded by the government in Canada.