Pints With Aquinas - How to Discern God's Will (and Your Vocation) w/ Fr. Vincent Yeager

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

In this episode, I chat with Fr. Vincent Yeager, a Franciscan priest, and vocations director, about how to find your vocation. We share tips and examples from our own journeys — his as a priest and mine as a married man — and we discuss:  - Whether you can choose the wrong vocation  - How to recognize signs from God  - Small “v” vocations and big “V” vocations  - What to do when you’re attracted to two different vocations  - Five keys to discernment you need to know If you’ve been wondering about your vocation in life (or know someone who is), this is the episode for you!   Download my FREE ebook, "You Can Understand Aquinas," now!   SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Homeschool Connections: https://homeschoolconnections.com/matt/   GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/  This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show.   LINKS Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas   MY BOOKS Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Nice to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here. Glad to be here. Jaeger? Yes. Like the beer? Like the pilot. What does that mean? So Chuck Jaeger was actually a US pilot who broke the sound barrier.

Oh, wow. Related? Probably, because it's spelled the same, but I don't know the direct answer. I'd go with yes, just like definitely. Well, it's nice to have you on the show. You are a TOR? I am. Yeah, third order regular Franciscan. Okay, fantastic. And when did you become a priest? So I became a priest in 2018, so two and a half years now.

Okay. Where did you grow up? Central Pennsylvania. Oh, okay. So not too far. Yeah, yeah. Sort of in the western hill country of Pennsylvania, if you could call it that. Okay. And very much a Catholic area.

How many provinces, is that what you call them of your order in the country? In the US, we have two. Well, actually there are four represented, but two are sort of missionary type work. So we have our province, the province of the sacred heart of Jesus. We have the Immaculate Conception province. And then there's one of the Indian provinces has a priest in Texas who's working there. and then the Mexican vice province, also in Texas. Is there a reason you chose the TORs over a different branch of Franciscans? Well, the first thing was just the fact that I got to know the friars when I was going through my formation process. So our home base is in central Pennsylvania, about 20 minutes from

where I grew up. But then I've really come to realize that it very much fits who I am. Okay. So you didn't kind of shop around as it were. Not too much. Yeah, very good. Well, today we're going to talk about discerning God's will, discerning our vocations. This is going to be an interesting topic. We've got some people in the live stream who are saying things like this. I literally just Googled how to discern God's will two minutes ago, and now I get this notification.

Here we go. I'm sitting here wondering what i'm going to do with my life and i just happened to catch this just as it's starting this is real time happening right now yeah um this guy says i'm in the middle of a 54 hour fast so this episode is perfect timing this is wonderful this guy says that st. Or you would say stash, I guess. Rocking it, crushing it. Yeah, cool. So this is fantastic.

Where do we want to begin? I would love to know how you heard the call to the priesthood. Yeah, yeah. I'd be glad to go into that. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, because then it's more specific to me, but then we can generalize. Yes, I like that. After that, so specific, so not knocking stuff over.

So, yeah, I grew up in a Catholic family. My parents were Catholic. My grandparents were Catholic. My great-grandparents were Catholic. But really, we didn't have any clergy. No, that's wrong. My grandmother's sister was a sister in a religious community. But so growing up, just faithful, went to Mass, helped out the parish picnics, kind of your basic stuff.

But then later on through high school, I always still went. I always thought it was important. But it got to the point where I was like, I'm going to stop altar serving, and it's not as important. But then I ended up, I was dating a young woman, a classmate of mine in high school, and she dragged me along to a prayer meeting. Fantastic. Charismatic type stuff.

Nice. And later on, she broke up with me, but I stuck around. But I had this really profound experience of the Lord's presence and his care and concern for me, his love for me. It wasn't dramatic in the moment in the sense of my life didn't flip on its head. But from that point on, it definitely took a shift in trajectory so then over the next couple of years studying engineering going to penn state altuna and uh got more and more involved just year by year you could almost see it growing we'll go to mass on sundays and then a prayer group on thursdays and then adoration wednesdays and a weekday mass and then the lord is and then three. The Lord is slowly taking over.

Yeah, my whole life. At the same time, though, I was still doing engineering, and it was still going well. I had a couple internships. But by the time I was graduating, I was going to Mass seven days a week, and I was going to a secular school. So it wasn't like I was going to Franciscan, right, where that's normal. Yes. So I was doing that, teaching religious ed on Sunday, Adoration Wednesday, Prayer Group Thursday, Men's Group Monday.

It just kind of blew up. And yet there was no real issues. There were no real issues with it. It was very much a peaceful sense of fulfillment. And it got to the end. So October, my senior year, dated again. She broke up with me and I was like, Lord, what's going on? I'm not that bad of a guy. And so I started looking at religious life and priesthood. And I figured I'd take a very pragmatic approach, engineer my background.

So I looked at the diocese, figured, okay, I don't really feel inclined to the diocese, but it's a good baseline. Checked out the Benedictines from Latrobe, Pennsylvania, St. Vincent Arch Abbey, because they staffed the parish I grew up in. And then the Franciscan friars, third order regular, because they were the friars that I got to know and were involved in my own flourishing. Fantastic. What were your parents thinking as you began to serve? Well, at first it was a bit removed.

It was a bit slower process, and they didn't realize how much things were happening under the surface. I did share about it, but they thought, well, maybe down the road. But then senior year comes along, and during my spring semester, all this transpired very, very quickly. And so April 1st weekend, I was going on my come and see with the friars and I was going to graduate in a month and I had a job offer. Actually, I'd had two and I put a down payment on an apartment the week before I went on my come and see. So come back afterwards. And, and I had this sense of unease while we were looking at apartments. Just didn't sit right. And yet, went on my come and see, and then afterwards it just clicked. It all made sense.

It was a perfect fit. And I didn't care to worry about the job or anything of that sort. And so I came home and I told my parents, hey, I'm going to apply. And they said, are you sure? Were they happy with this religious awakening? They were. You were experiencing?

Yeah, yeah. They definitely weren't supportive of it. And your friends at the time, were they also faithful Catholics? So this didn't... It was a bit of a challenge there. Yeah? It was... What I saw was, at the end of high school, was really the transition point.

So a lot of times when people go to college, they go one of two directions. They either have a moment of conversion and faith becomes more, more primary for their life, or they go towards more of a party atmosphere. And it's not universal, obviously, but that's a lot of what happens. And a lot of my friends from high school went that direction. And at that sort of pivotal moment, I went the other direction. So we really still have care for them, but I really haven't kept in great contact just because the primary focuses of our lives are very different. Did certain people think you were nuts for choosing this? What was that like? It was a challenge, but it really wasn't too unsettling for me personally because my experience of the Lord and relationship with

the Lord at that point had become so foundational that nothing else really mattered I think it was it was sad for me if they were going to be opposed to that but I was just so convicted of the truth this basically the idea that like, okay, God is real. God cares for us. The Catholic Church is true. Therefore, I have to do something about that. And if you're going to choose to do something different, that's on you.

I'm going to try and help you. But that's, it's a thing where the Lord calls, we have to respond. And if we allow those relationships to get in the way, then. How did you discern? Like what were the, I'm sure people want to know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were there certain things, I mean, you went to a common seat, I guess that's one thing to do. Yeah, yeah. So it was, it was funny last week I was preaching in a homily on campus and I said, you know, if you were to discern and say, all you did was you looked at some websites of some communities. I said, that's the equivalent of going to the student union center, looking at someone across the way and

staring longingly and then not talking to them. Yes, or going to Catholic Chemistry, which is a dating site. I'm like, I discern marriage. I clicked through some photos and read some profiles. Exactly, exactly. And I said later, you know, the one thing I would have added is that's actually stalking. Yeah, cut that out. So what I did was I had dated, but then the next step with the sermon for me personally was to talk to some people who lived a life. Talk to the vocation director. Talk to some of the friars.

Talk to one of the Benedictine monks. Talk to the vocation director for the diocese. To ask those questions, to have them answer those questions. Ask me some questions, kind of get to know them, and see if it's a good fit. So that was really the big thing. It's kind of like your date. It's the same ideas.

You have to talk to somebody, but you have to get to know them at a deeper level than their profile page. Yes. What are the number, what are the few top things that prevent people from making the jump to go on just to come and see Weekend? Oh, sure, yeah. Do you think oh sure yeah it's uh one is it just time commitment uh but the i'd say the bigger thing is this fear that i'm going to commit my life yeah if i go to talk to this person or if i go to this community for this weekend to visit which is totally unreasonable but if you don't know then how

could you know? So the fact that, although you may have a vocation director who's a bit overzealous and harasses you for a couple months after, but in the big picture is it's not a lifetime commitment. So this is the interesting thing is sometimes with like taking that other step is even becoming a postulant or entering seminary. If you're going for diocesan priesthood, it's not a permanent commitment for several years. Whereas if you're getting married, well, you're married, and that's it for life. But with seminary and things like that, it's kind of like a very extended, prolonged dating time, for example.

Or as a religious, you're really in vows, but they really have an expiration, so you have to renew them. Speaking to other vocation directors, how are people discerning differently today than they were, say, 20 years ago? Is there a heightened sense of immaturity among younger people, an unwillingness to commit? Is there a heightened sense of immaturity among younger people and unwillingness to commit? Or is, I wouldn't be surprised actually if we're getting into a time where people who are actually faithful Catholics realize we've got to go, you know, all guns a blazing and want to commit.

But what's that been like? You're talking of people who have been vocation directors for a longer time than before. Now, if you go way back, there was a point, one of our friars, brother Steve, he ended up becoming the tailor for 65 years. But he wrote back whenever you would have to write letters to a vocation director. Yeah. And they wrote back and said, oh, yeah, come up for a visit. And he came and he never left. How old was he?

He was probably 18. Oh, I thought you said he was a tailor. Well, he became a tailor for 65 years. He made the habits for the community. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. But very, very different from then is now there's much more of this desire to do something meaningful with your life is what I see. But at the same time, there's this hesitancy, this fear. I'm going to screw it up.

Right. Yeah, yeah. So there's almost a perfectionism that creeps in. This thing that I have to figure this all out 100%. Yes. It's like having to have the perfect college application, having to get the perfect job, date the perfect person. Yes.

When in reality it's like, well, I'm not perfect either. So we're going to have to figure this out as we go. And so the other, and then if you go more towards the people who are trying to be more faithful in an intense, intentional way, there's a fear of not actually accomplishing God's will, like screwing it up. Yes. Which, okay, I get, because we don't want to fall away from what the Lord's will is for us. But at the same time is if we truly are seeking his will and we're willing to listen, he'll guide us. Talk to that a bit more because I've had that fear in the past and I've met a lot of people who do as well. They think that God's will is as narrow as a tightrope.

And it's going to be really easy to take one step left or right and then they're buggered. And then they're locked into a vocation they were never called to to begin with and they didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, other than because you just said two things, right? Like listening to God and being open to discern. But again, that seems like it puts the emphasis back on the person and they're the person they distrust.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So can you choose a wrong vocation to some degree yeah it's possible uh we hear about that in different situations you have a maybe a priest or religious who seeks a dispensation from their vows or laicization or someone who's married who realizes oh no what have i done but in the big picture it seems that, and maybe I'm naive in this to some extent,

but it seems that the Lord is going to guide us. And so I think St. Francis of Assisi, for example, was like a really key example where he would, near and dear to my heart, obviously, but early in his life he wanted to become nobility. He was raised as a son of a middle class cloth merchant, sort of rising class, he wanted to become nobility. He was raised as a son of a middle class cloth merchant, sort of rising class and wanted to become nobility. And so he decided to fight in these battles. So back before Italy was a United country, it was these city states warring between each other. And well, he went off and they were conquered and he was locked up in a dungeon until his father could pay the ransom. But then later on, he decided he was going to go on the Crusades to free the Holy Land.

But on the way, he had a dream, two different occasions. And he went back to Assisi because he was going. And the one dream, the Lord revealed to him this image of a room full of arms, weapons, shields, things like that. And Francis says, whose are these? He's like, well, they're yours for the army that you're going to raise up. Or another one is he appears to him. The Lord speaks to him and says, okay, who is it better to serve, the master or the servant?

Francis says, well, the master. And the Lord says to him, then why are you following the servant? And so he goes back to Assisi. So the idea is that Francis was pursuing this one track on his vocation when in reality, the Lord was calling him over here, but the Lord gave him signs to direct him. So if we're being attentive, so we can follow principles of discernment, which we can go into, then the Lord's going to show us that, okay, this isn't the track. Maybe you're dating someone and it's just not a good fit because the key things that are important in your life don't fit together. I think for me, and I think this might be helpful to some people out there. I was discerning priesthood and marriage. I had went and stayed with the CFRs in London and I was feeling pretty compelled in that direction.

But through good spiritual direction and through good brothers, I realized that I was wanting to become a priest mainly out of fear of sucking as a husband. And it was a deep thing for me. It was every aspect I could think of. Like I'm going to be a priest mainly out of fear of sucking as a husband and it was a deep thing for me it was every aspect i could think of like i'm gonna be a bad husband i'm gonna be a bad lover i'm gonna be a bad father i won't be able to provide like i don't know what i'm gonna do what am i gonna do no podcasting existed back then what am i gonna do you know and i was so petrified that i was

screw up and i think and i wouldn't have been able to express this at the time, that, okay, if I go and become a priest, at least I'll appear holy to her. You know, this girl, Cameron, who I really like. At least I can be over there and say my prayers and people will have this perception of me. But really, I'm just really afraid. And it was this fear of running away. But then I'll say this to your point earlier about one can choose the wrong vocation a couple of years into my marriage we hit a really rough patch because of different things and at that point I was like bloody hell maybe I've made the wrong decision you know I was like in love and I had high emotions and I just chose this thing and now I'm screwed now I'm stuck in it but I think that probably had more to do with me not understanding that I was called to carry a cross.

And to your point about people want meaning in their lives, and they have an idea. I have an idea of what that meaning ought to feel like. And then I pursue this path. And if that feeling of this is the will of God, if that's not banging on all cylinders, then because of my cowardice, I begin to question it. But it would seem to me that if you've married a woman, that's your bloody vocation. Or profess vows.

Yeah, if you profess vows, provided there's some extraneous circumstance that's serious. Exactly. Because that's my fear, that someone will hear this and be like, yeah, well, I'm fine in bloody priesthood. more tough than it should be. Or, you know, married life probably shouldn't have done that. So maybe there's a way I can get out of this. Right. Yeah. And that's not my point at all. Yeah. So maybe to focus in then. So there's actually a book that Father Mike Scanlon, one of our friars from our province, now deceased,

may he rest in peace. He wrote called what does god want on discernment so just these principles of discernment he lays out five kind of key elements which are really really good but we've got to go through them yeah yeah for sure for sure i mean that's great so the first one is does it conform to god's will right and with and that's the first principle like so if i'm discerning leaving my wife for some other woman. Exactly. Nope. That's not God's will. Exactly. Not possible.

But I really feel alive when I'm with her. Shut up. Suck it up. Yeah. Deal. Like, choose to love.

Yeah. Choose to not just pursue the emotions. Yeah. So the idea is like, based off of what God has done in my life, what he's revealed in my life

and the vocation I'm committed to, I know his will is within that context. That's excellent. It's like, okay, I'm a baptized person. Therefore, I have these rules that I have to live my life by because it's going to be good for me. So I can't just deviate on a whim. So that's kind of the first key. That's excellent. All right. So say that again. The first one is conformity to God's will, at least in a general sense. Exactly. So God's not calling you to sin. He's not calling you to apostatize. He's not calling you to be a serial dater or, you know, have cohabitators,

cohabitate or anything like that. Exactly. Yeah. So, so cause the first stages really come, the way he lays it out, it really comes from an intellectual point of view, not in the sense that it stays in your head. It's relational. But we can sort of override what we can often fall into trouble with with our emotions. So we use this framework first. So we have conformity to God's will. Then, let's see. Gotta refresh it, refresh it. Okay. Let's see. Does it encourage it, refresh it. Okay. Uh, let's see. Does it encourage conversion? That's the second one. Ooh.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. So not, not, is it going to be the hardest possible thing I can come up with? That's right.

That's always something harder. Right. Right. It's always something. So, so as hard as something is, isn't necessarily a defining factor of God's will. But the idea is,

is it going to make me as holy as I possibly can be? Yeah. Because that's the goal of any vocation. So far, I'd have to say that these apply to my choice to move to Steubenville, right? So I'm not sure. I haven't heard the other three yet. Maybe some will be specific to religious life,

but already I'm like, okay, this is within God's will. I'm not abandoning a post that I ought not to abandon because of my duty and then secondly i'm one of the main reasons i moved to steubenville was to encourage the conversion of my family you know we want to be saints i want my children to be saints etc amen amen yeah that's exactly it so like so bringing about that conversion in your life whatever that looks like so it so conversion though it's hard because it's going to require change in ourselves. So as a third-order Franciscan, that's our core spirituality.

So as Franciscans, but our core charism is ongoing conversion. So the Greek word is metanoia from the scriptures of, like, turning to the Lord, turning away from sin in a constant daily fashion. And in some sense, it parallels very, very, very closely to the universal call to holiness. But how does this apply to someone who's studying religious life? It would seem that there's never a choice for religious life that wouldn't encourage conversion. Exactly. But marriage falls in the same category. So this book is for general discernment. So it's not just religious life. So that's why it fits for you. But yeah, so it's this sense that it's going to,

no matter what vocation you choose, if it's a good vocation worthwhile, it's going to be difficult at times. I mean, you having kids is like, you're going to get a lot less sleep than somebody who doesn't have kids. Yeah. And in a real sense, it's, I don't think I've suffered as much as I have ever. Now, to be fair, I got married when I was 22. So, and in a real sense, I don't think I've suffered as much as I have ever. Now, to be fair, I got married when I was 22. So I've almost been married longer than I've been, wasn't married. But yeah, there's been significant suffering

and not just suffering in the trivial sense that you can tell people about and everyone laughs about it, like get up at three in the morning, change diapers, but also just this like, this is brutal. Like life's frigging hard. Like we don't have any money. You know, that's been the case at least earlier in our marriage.

Sure. And then here with my wife's sickness and I know people are experiencing things like that and there's just this deep sense of like, this isn't fair. This isn't fair. This should be better. So to your point about suffering. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and that, so the point is like, is it meaningful? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that, so that's one of those next elements and then the third so that's we have conformity God's will conversion deeper conversion right consistency consistency okay so about that consistency in the sense of how God has spoken in your life

before this time is this in the same pattern? See, already I think of an objection. I don't think Francis, he experienced some pretty radical invitations from the Lord, like those dreams that I don't know if he experienced earlier on. Oh, right, right. So there is a point where it begins. It's not from your birth, necessarily.

Okay. But the idea is as you go along and you make smaller decisions in various stages, if you can see that that's been fruitful, that it's been a way that you've been able to grow in holiness, and then the Lord speaks in a similar fashion. So give us an example of this. So yeah. Well, so Francis was his dreams.

Yeah. Okay. What about for you? So for me, it uh this progressive growth of like just beginning to get involved in different ministries and beginning to develop deeper friendships based in the faith so people i got to know at saint francis university so i would go to campus ministry events there even though i was going to a different school they were very generous but then i gave my life to the friars so it's our other school so it works out yes but so it the sense of that was

I've had a few key moments where so like my initial conversion at the first prayer meeting was a very deep and profound sort of emotional experience on an interior sense yeah but it wasn't I mean I was that was the first experience of that. But there was great fruit over the next several years. Yes. It wasn't just a trivial emotional experience. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. It was deeply convicting and it still, to some sense, drives my life. But then at the moment of discernment, when I was on my come and see, having a similar type of experience. So it was consistent in the pattern. And it didn't require a crazy transition. I was already moving in that direction, but then it just established it. So that was my own experience. So this is an interesting rule, consistency. So what would be an example of something maybe you've seen where it wasn't consistent? Or just, you know. Sure, sure. Yeah. So one of the examples that Father Mike uses in

his book is this man who had come from Cuba and he had gotten involved in different business operations, but there were points where the Lord invited him to this radical generosity from his business and it would always bear fruit. And it started small and then it grew progressively larger and progressively larger. And then towards the end of his life, he had this, uh, well, I guess this is another one that it is consistent, but so his, uh, he, again, at the end of his life, he felt this call to give all of it in donation

in his will and his family was kind of upset by that because they wanted to receive from him but he uh but yeah so so that worked out he ended up seeing that as how god was continuing to invite him deeper but so if you had somebody who um where they had seen the Lord working in their life, say, in a way to respond to some kind of prayer experience, but then they have this sort of, it's hard to nail it down because it's so specific to an individual situation. One thing I'm thinking of, and I don't know if this comes under this heading or not, would be somebody who has this one experience

and then wants to change their entire life based off of it. I just feel like the Lord's calling me to move there and do this. Or a different example would be, I don't like my job. I don't feel like it's helpful to me and the family, and I just want to do full-time ministry. So I think I'm going to do it. And you know, well, hang on, wait. How will your family be? But then I'm not sure if that necessarily falls under consistency. That might just mean prudence. Well, yeah. So that's under the similar vein, though, because it's a matter of seeing, okay,

could the Lord be inviting you to that yes but it would have to be confirmed by these other areas so the consistency isn't the end all be all okay but it's something to look it's one thing within the context of the whole okay to provide further direction yep okay that's great conformity god's will yep uh conversion deep conversion consistency and what's the fourth let's see how is it confirmed how is it confirmed what does that mean so like spiritual signs things like that so because these first three sort of fall under the intellectual angle these last two fall more under the emotional prayer spiritual experience type category because the idea is like if you were to talk about

conversion or a discernment in general it would make sense to move from what's logical it's like okay is it within the accords of the teaching of the church scriptures how the lord has worked in your life thus far how's it going to help me grow in holiness it's like okay if it falls in those categories then it's a good thing now we have to discern between it's no longer between bad and good it's between what's good and what's best. Yes. And that can be very difficult.

Oh, extremely so. Because that, yeah, the line between say keeping your old job as a teacher and becoming a full-time evangelist. Yes. Or going on mission work in some foreign place. Lots of good things you could choose. Or moving the other direction from like say doing, like you're young, you're married, you go out and the two of you do mission work and then you have to perhaps move towards a more stable life. I mean, there's all different directions. And so this is where the immediate operation of the Holy Spirit can come into play a little bit more closely.

But this is where spiritual direction is all the more important because our emotions can run away with us. Yeah. So this sense of how is it confirmed. So I think about my own experience. Back whenever I was discerning, I had gotten connected with a guy who was running a prayer group, and we knew each other, but not in any great depth. We hadn't talked in detail about, I don't even think he knew I was discerning. And at one point, we were both going to confession. We were waiting in line at an Advent penance service.

And he looks across the church and he gets this look on his face, kind of confused. And afterwards, he catches me. He says, I looked over for a second and I saw you in a black habit. Oh. And then I looked back and you didn't have it on. And I was very confused. But he had no idea that I was discerning with the TORs. Yeah.

Interesting. And so you don't want to put everything on that. That's where I think some people fall into this where they put this first. Yeah, I just need a rose from St. Therese. Exactly, exactly. It's like, okay, can she work that way? Yeah, yeah, St. Therese can work that way. Like all sorts of people account for that.

Or you have prayer to any of the saints or different mystical, spiritual experiences. But we can't put all of our weight of discernment on those things. Otherwise, we run the risk. It's like, okay, well, I could ask for a rose, but because there's no defense against demonic involvement in that situation at the same time. Because if it's just emotional, if it's just interior,

if it's just personal, if it doesn't involve the larger context of being a faithful Catholic, then, and like these other more pragmatic steps in the process, we can get off the rails very, very quickly. Okay, good. What's the fifth one? So it's conviction. Okay. So in the heart. Yeah. And this again is spiritual direction and people that know you well and people that trust you or that you trust to tell you what's real what's not yeah um so think about francis of assisi he was trying to wrestle back and forth with this tension so he felt called to the life of a hermit separation isolation solitude with the lord deep contemplative prayer and then he also felt the call to preach.

And he couldn't figure out which one was which. And because he... And these mendicant orders were new on the scene. Oh, exactly. So this was a new... Exactly. Yeah, so he was there and he was praying. He's like, okay, I don't know which one. Don't know how to decide.

Because he knew that he would be closer with the Lord in his personal experience if he was a contemplative hermit. But he knew that it would be better for the church and his brothers if he was active. And so he saw the good in both. So it's what's good and what's best. So he went to Claire, and I believe it was Elias, two people who knew him well. But his choice wouldn't affect either of them immediately. That's very good.

That objective outside perspective. For me, when I was discerning marriage with Cameron, I'm not sure if I would have accepted this as, like, for example, if all of my family did the opposite of what I'm about to say, I'm not sure if it would have necessarily dissuaded me, but I think it was a very, very good thing that everybody in

my life who I deeply trusted and loved, and you know, how many people can you deeply trust and love? Maybe there was a handful of people. All of them were saying, you need to marry Cameron immediately. She's incredible. Pursue her. She's definitely better than you. Do this. You're going up. Yeah. Yeah. That was really, you know, as I say, I'm not sure if I would have had the wisdom, hopefully I would have, to take a second look at it if the people in my life would have said, dude, she's nuts or she's not worth marrying or she's unstable, say. Nuts is too pejorative, but unstable. Yeah, but that was really huge looking back on it. Some of the best people in my life who knew her well and knew me well were telling me you make sure this happens do this yeah which is interesting because that

kind of tracks back to the confirmation what confirms it but then there's the conviction part is whenever you heard that that your heart was settled on it so that's this yeah so father mike uses this example in the book and he says he was at a conference. He was trying to discern. He got invited to come and to be president at Franciscan University, which is kind of a big deal at that point, although it was tanking. So it was going to be a tough job. Yeah. And so he was praying about it and wrestling and trying to figure it out, and he couldn't make sense of it.

And he heard this one speaker come and speak at a conference and the point was made it was this priest and he said at some point in his life he was holding something back from the lord because he was terrified that if he gave everything to the lord the lord would send him to africa but he realized later he, the Lord's not going to call me to Africa unless he puts Africa in my heart. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, so in other words, the confirmation that I received from my trusted friends confirmed what I had hoped in a sense. Exactly, exactly.

So then it gave you the assurance. Now, we can never have absolute certainty in most situations. It's important to say. Right. And also like what you said earlier, I think that really summed it up nicely when you talked about we go looking for the sign first. So back to that question I asked earlier about what's preventing people from coming on that come and see and really investing. I think it is that. You begin with the I need some outrageous sign that cannot possibly be questioned and then I'll do it.

Exactly. Any sign you're given can be questioned. Even if you had a dream of the Lord Jesus Christ instructing you to do it, you could just say, well, I had a lot of cheese that night and maybe that's why my dream was, you know, like really. I mean, that sounds funny, but I can't think of any sign that you can't even just question your mental faculties as to did that really appear to me?

In fact, I was- You should question it to some extent. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I heard about a bloke who was discerning marriage with his wife as to did that really appear to me? In fact, I was- You should question it to some extent. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I heard about a bloke who was discerning marriage with his wife and he asked for three things. He asked for some sort of natural sign, like a deer or to see some sort of animal,

a full moon and scripture, some obvious scripture or something. And within an hour, all those things, he actually saw a deer on his front lawn. Like, you know, this and this and this. And he doesn't usually see deer on his front lawn. That's a good question. I don't know. Maybe he was just looking for any reason to marry her, you know.

Sure, sure, sure. He should have said giraffe. Because confirmation bias gets a little crazy sometimes. That's exactly right. But here's why it's funny. Because for me, I remember kneeling down and saying the same thing in prayer after receiving Eucharist. After having moved to Texas, discerning marriage with my wife, I said the same thing. All right, Lord,

give me a sign. I want to see a full moon. I want to see this. I want to see like an animal. And I, and you know, whenever you say the Lord said, I'm sure it was me speaking to myself as if here's what the Lord would say. And it was almost like the Lord said to me, well, do you want to marry her? And I said, yes. And the Lord said, and he sounded very much like my mother, you're old enough and ugly enough to make this decision on your own. And I went, boom, let's do it. I think the next day I married,

no sign, nothing, you know. But that was, yeah. So I was thrilled to have made that decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, yeah. So that's the other catch with discernment is like, it seems like sometimes we get in this place where we want the Lord to decide for us

or we want someone else to decide for us, to tell us what to do. That's profound. Yes. So that's- Like the guy who walks across the church and says, I saw you in a black hat, but we need somebody outside of ourselves

to do the telling. Yeah. And there's something good about that. But then there's a point where I couldn't look for somebody to tell me yes you have to do this you need to do this only in very very few instances does that seem to ever come up where you have maybe a saint who so we think about like the the specific these very profound figures in the history of the church.

Well, like Mary, okay, our blessed mother. That's a good one. And Gabriel shows up and says, behold, you're going to bear a son. It's like, okay, well, yeah, but only those who have the most intense extreme missions seem to get those sorts of confirmations. For the rest of us, it's a little more subdued. Yes. But in the sense of we can't get caught in that

and thinking that someone else has to make our own decision. We have to be in a place of maturity to be able to choose that on our own if it's going to be free. That's a very important point. That's profound. Yeah. Otherwise, you're not free in giving yourself in marriage if your mother forces you into it.

Yeah. Yeah. Or if someone placed an expectation on me, otherwise you're not free and giving yourself in marriage if your mother forces you into it. Yeah. Yeah. Or if, or if like someone placed an expectation on me, that's why like there's so much time placed into marriage prep, so much time placed into formation as a, as a religious or as a priest is to see and to help someone recognize their own freedom in choosing to follow the Lord's path. Because if we do it under duress, well, what's the point? It might be good in and of itself, but there's something seriously lacking. I've shared this story before, but I'd love your comment on it. I was chatting with a priest who had just become a bishop in Australia.

He was a Capuchin Franciscan, and I was discerning the Capuchins at one point. And I said to him, I didn't say this, but I think he must have intuited that this was something I might be struggling with. He said, don't be afraid if you're attracted to the Franciscans for superficial reasons. Like their habit looks really cool. Because he said, when one is attracted to a girl, he probably has superficial reasons. Now those reasons need to deepen. Exactly. But don't, it's okay to

follow that. And I thought that that was so freeing for me. Maybe speak to that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it goes to my own experience a little bit. So back when I was discerning, I was getting ready to graduate, moving along, and I checked out the diocese and figured I need a community. So it wasn't going to be a good fit. Then I went to visit the Benedictines and I sort of circumstantially was able to meet up with one of the priests, one of the monks who had been at my parish for a number of years. And at this point, he was in his early mid nineties, driving around his little power scooter and teaching biology class because he was bored. He was bored. So it tells you a little bit about his character and his energy level. Anyhow, he asked one of the other monks to have me come in and

chat with him. And so we were chatting in the afternoon. It ended up being about a three to four hour spiritual direction session. I was not expecting, but it was excellent. And just what I needed. Because at that point, I was conflicted. I was trying to figure it out and say, okay, I was I was conflicted I was trying to figure it out and say okay well like what should I do because I feel inclined towards the friars I like some of them I've become kind of friends of a sort with some of them and I like their life I like I like their habit I think it's cool um I like what they do so there's these sort of superficial reasons like you're pointing to. Yeah. Like if the TOR's habit was bright pink, you would not have felt called to the Franciscans.

I'm pretty sure that's fair to say. Yeah, probably, probably. I think anybody would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's okay. Exactly, exactly. That's what I'm trying to get at. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not to be afraid of the superficial things

that are drawing you. Yeah. And so then my tension was I feel like it should be harder. I feel like it should be more difficult. To make this decision? No, the call. Like I should be called to something that's harder.

Oh, I see. So I was feeling very zealous and very kind of fired up about it. Yes. And he said, okay, just pause. As 96 years of wisdom could say. And he said, the Lord puts people in our life to guide us in the direction he wants us to go. Which was very profound for me because he said, don't overthink it. So the idea is like, I had gotten to know a number of the friars. I'd liked a number of the friars and I found it fruitful in my life.

It made sense. It made a lot of logical sense and I wanted to do it, but I was afraid of that emotion thinking, okay, am I just getting swept up in my own emotions or is it actually the Lord speaking? And so there comes a point where it's a, yeah, we should be, we should be concerned about going all the way based on our emotions. But whenever it all falls into place and we have sort of what we talked about, these principles, these five C principles, conformity to God's will, conversion, consistency.

I just realized they were all Cs. Yeah, yeah. Father Mike planned it that way. Yeah. To lay all those out. What was the final one? Consistency. I just realized they were all Cs. Yeah, yeah. Father Mike planned it that way. Yeah. To lay all those out. What was the final one? Consistency. Confirmation.

Yeah, confirmation and then conviction. Okay. Whenever you get to these last two, you can kind of go for it so long as it moves in the direction of holiness. And I like the idea of just saying to our Lord, Lord, you know I love you. Yeah. You know if you told me to do something else, I would try to do it. So I'm going to do this thing that I think you're calling me to. And what do I know?

I'm an idiot. So if this isn't it, you know, please direct me. But otherwise, I'm going to go for this because I love you and I'm doing this out of love. That kind of humility, you know. Right, right. Yeah. So then, so I felt very much freed at that point to kind of take a step to move forward. Which is, because it's an interesting

thing because some some guys and some women in general like the idea of discernment the options become crippling yes for sure right so this probably wasn't present 30 years ago when the you had no internet that's true you had just the community in your area yeah or maybe you pull up a magazine and you flip through and find the ones that advertise. But yeah, so that's the other thing is sort of discernment lockup, gridlock. Because I know of a couple of people who they'll discern 5, 10, 15, 20 communities. Not true.

Really? There was one of our friars actually, I think he looked at 18 different communities. Over the course of a short minute time? Yeah, yeah, fairly short. But every personality is a little bit different. So we each have to meet that need. But then there comes a point where we have to choose.

So I love or I enjoy. I like to use the word love in the appropriate settings, right? But I enjoy comparing discernment of religious life and priesthood to dating. Because it paints it in such a contrast. But actually the parallels line up really well. So the idea is, okay, so you are interested in dating. You like someone. But you also like this other person and this other person.

And you could date any of them. Well, pick one and try it. Basically. So the same with religious life is, well, you might like this community. You might like the CFRs. You might like the Capricins. You might like the TORs. You might like another one.

I was like, well, pick one. Like go on and come and see or go on a couple of come and sees. And then once you get to a point and you see which one seems to fit the best and maybe you're a toss-up, like ask the Lord for some sign and follow it type thing. I also heard somebody say this, and I thought it was really helpful. They said, I guess this was a priest or a seminarian, and in Australia, we don't have as many kind of vocations in certain areas especially, and people couldn't figure out why on earth he'd do something like this.

And I suppose the reporter was asking him, like, why on earth? And he said something really important. He said, look, as a Catholic, I'm really just choosing between two relationships. And I think there's this kind of misconception that if I don't become a priest, then I can have any of these women. I can marry any of these women. But it's kind of like going to a tap house and they've got a thousand brews. And you're like, okay, fantastic.

But I'm probably going to have one house and they've got a thousand brews. Right. And you're like, okay, fantastic. But I'm probably going to have one. At least I will. Yeah. Maybe two. Right. But I can't have all of them. And it's the same thing with marriage.

It's like, no, at the end of the day, you've got the wife you could marry or this. Or maybe no one wants to marry you anyway. So you've got no options. Yeah, you'll be single. Right. Yeah. I think that's kind of helpful. It is. It's not like infinite possibilities.

And of course, if you keep infinite possibilities open, you get nothing. And it becomes anxiety-ridden. So that's more of what we're seeing in the current milieu, is this fear of missing out, FOMO type thing. And it's real. Some face it, some don't. It just depends. But the idea is if I pursue this, all these other doors close.

But in fact, that's what the Lord is inviting us to, is a commitment to someone, ultimately to him. But then whatever that's going to look like in the subcontext. All right. Well, we have a lot of people with a lot of questions. And I imagine kind of getting into those questions will enable have a lot of people with a lot of questions. And I imagine kind of getting into those questions will enable you to sort of speak more directly to concrete experiences. So we might get to that. Before we do, I want to say thank you to our sponsor,

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I know the people personally, really beautiful, faithful Catholics. They've homeschooled themselves, and so they're realistic about whether this will be helpful or not. So go below, click the link, homeschoolconnections.com slash Matt, homeschoolconnections.com slash Matt. Again, the link is in the description below. Click that so that they know that we sent you. And you can just get in touch with them there on the website, either by calling them or emailing them. They'll get back to you right away. That's homeschoolconnections.com slash Matt, homeschoolconnections.com slash Matt. All right. Now, some of these questions we may have addressed. So if we have, feel free to, I don't know, just answer quickly or whatever. Okay. So Ben Hutchinson, thanks for being a

patron, Ben. He says, what should one do if they think they are in the wrong vocation? For example, if they are a revert and think that religious life is actually what they are called to, but they are now married with kids. Should that person just accept it and assume that God will turn what might be a bad decision to the good? Okay, yeah, great question. I mean, it's because that becomes those issues of, okay, what is God's will within this context? It's like, well, you're married, so commit to that.

You got kids, there's a natural. This is what God's will is for you. Exactly. Like we look at that first category is does it conform to God's will? It's like, yeah, you're married from the natural point of view even. Even if it was just,

you went to the justice of the peace and now you've had a conversion. I was like, there are your kids. She's your wife. Yeah, I hold to that. But the thing to be attentive to is how can I live this out within the context of my family life? So this actually goes a little bit into the history of Franciscan history and then and other religious orders as well, depending on, say, an individual's preference, is the third order traditions. So within the third order Franciscan, so I'm third order regular Franciscan, but if you

go back to the very beginning, whenever Francis was first experiencing his conversion, he went out and began to give direction to secular penitents, people living a penitential life. And they became third-order Franciscans, but they were people living in their homes. Some were married. Some were single. They were clergy.

But those different communities still continue up until today. So third-order secular Franciscans, there are communities and fraternities. Another example is third-order Dominicans, Oblates of St. Benedict. So these different lay associations that connect with religious communities could be a way to foster that sense of calling to a religious vocation within the context of the vocation that you're already in. Yeah, I like that. And again, those first two points, if someone's married and fears they've made the wrong decision, I guess first, I think that puts too much emphasis on you as if God

couldn't have brought you to the place you needed to be before making a decision. But secondly, is this God's will? No, abandoning my wife and kids is the opposite of God's will. Will this lead to further conversion? No, you would my wife and kids is the opposite of God's will. Exactly. Will this lead to further conversion? No, you would be abandoning people that God has placed in your charge. So this is the will of God for you, I suppose. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let me know if you disagree with any of that.

No, that's on board entirely. Emily, thanks for being a patron. She says, at what point should you tell your parents when you visit a community a second time? Oh, she's asking when. When you visit them a second time should you tell your parents when you apply, especially if they aren't practicing or understanding of the sacrifice? Any advice? Please keep – oh, I'm glad I didn't say her last name.

Please keep this anonymous if you read this question aloud. Sorry, lady. I didn't say her last name. Well, I guess we're only concerned if her parents are watching. aloud. Sorry, lady. I didn't say her last name, so we can go. Well, I guess we're only concerned if her parents are watching. That's true, yeah. Nobody send this to the Emilys you know. So what we could look to in that situation is

we have to look and see what the fruit of discerning is going to be in our own life and the lives of those that we have in our relationships. So I think about my own parents, for example. I mean, they've been faithful Catholics all their life. But what we really have come to realize is my own becoming a friar brought about tremendous fruit in their life. And a couple of my sisters as well. Like one of my nieces,

they had gotten married, my sister had gotten married, and they had their kids, and they were about four or five years old, and they had been married outside the church, which is kind of a difficult thing, and the kids hadn't been baptized. And I was like, okay, well, becoming a friar actually prompted my niece, who was four years old at the time to say, uh, so mommy,

when, uh, when we stay at grandma and grandpaps, they take us to church. And when aunt Emily comes and takes care of us, she takes us to church and uncle Vince went to church and he stayed there. So why don't we go to church? Hilarious.

So a four year old, the logic of a four year old, they ended up going back and now they're baptized and they have first communion. They've gone through religious ed and it's great and able to have their marriage blessed. I was able to do that, to convalidate. It was a great thing. So what I would say to the point of discerning and when to tell your family, every situation is personal. You're going to have to figure that out case by case.

Maybe ask somebody some advice. But if you fear that they're going to be opposed, waiting isn't going to change that. That's a great point. In fact, maybe telling them in the initial stages is less of an abrasive shock to their system than, I'm joining next year yeah yeah yeah it may get them to start thinking about it and wondering and asking those questions so you might have some really good conversations which may bring about conversion for them or you may realize that they're just opposed and they're going to be opposed and that's just the way it's

going to be yeah but so you have to you have to be in a place of comfort enough. Because so this gets into a lot of complicated issues is the other factors like what sort of relationship do you have with your parents? Because so this is where that, okay, the commandment, honor thy father and thy mother. Except if you have a call to religious life and they tell you don't go, that begins to get across the line. Absolutely. Of like what is honoring your father and mother? Yeah.

It's like, well, becoming as holy as you possibly can be because that'll be good for them. So it's this thing of when someone is sort of demanding you to sin or have an omission of God's will that you know is God's will, then you disobey. Exactly. You obey God. Exactly.

So it's a tough question. It's got to be hard, yeah. I remember for me, God bless my parents, very good people, but I remember my mom when I told her I was just doing religious life. She's like, well, why don't you just become a social worker? As if you could do that and have sex. And it's basically the same thing. And God bless her.

I'm a beautiful woman. But I just thought, gosh, that is a real, yeah, that really reveals the lack of catechesis and faith in people if they just think that being a priest is basically helping people and that's it. Well, and that's what it had become in some circles for quite a time. Yeah. But no more is that the case. Yeah.

Because there is so much amongst those who are trying to be faithful and grow in that in a much more profound sense is this sacrifice and this relationship with christ and the church that if i was to become a cloistered because it's the cloistered religious who challenged that status quo idea i was like oh you'd be a social worker it's like no i'm gonna become a cloistered religious and i'm never gonna leave the convent or the monastery and i'm just gonna pray all the time and work i was like i'm not actually gonna do social work. Yeah. That's interesting. But we have the popes who say, I can't remember which one, said that none of the missionary activity of the church would be successful without the cloistered monastic communities.

Yeah. This is a good question. It will help us define our terms here. Sure. Bill Wogan says, is being single your whole life and not part of a religious community a vocation? So what do we mean by vocation? What does that word mean? Sure, sure.

Voc, I guess, call? Yeah, the calling from the Lord. Yeah, so I mean if the Lord has called you to that, then... So some people push back and they say, no, it's not. But I would say if that's what the Lord has invited you to, how are you going to become holiest? The reason I think people push back against it is they say, you can't call something a vocation in the same sense, not just because it's not a sacrament,

but because if it can be undone, like if you can make a decision otherwise. Sure. And I suppose in a lesser sense, you can say, I feel the Lord's calling me to be single during this time because of X, Y, and Z. Yeah. That still seems like a different thing

to making an irrevocable decision which is yeah which some people do like janet smith is a consecrated exactly that i was going to go that direction so in some sense like it's it's not in the it's not permanent in the same category but so there's like the big v vocation is perhaps a way to define it as like you have these married single life religious, diocesan, or single life within the consecrated categories. But then you have sort of small V vocation would be more temporary within that. And those can fluctuate and change.

So something along the lines of I'm vocation director or I'm going to become postulant director for our community. Or Father Dave is president at Franciscan. Like he won't be president forever. That's right. But that's his vocation right now. That's right. Within the context of being a religious priest. Yeah.

Small V. Big V distinction. Yeah. Gabriel, thanks for being a patron, says, or Gabriel, I guess, I'm discerning religious life, daughters of St. Paul, and I'm wondering how necessary spiritual direction is. I am in a rural area and it's not super available to me. I talk with a sister with their order,

but should I pursue more formal direction? And I have a follow-up to this because you've mentioned spiritual direction a few times and the importance of a good spiritual director, but there's also the temptation to cease seeing your spiritual director if he or she starts saying things that you disagree with. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. That's a great thing to be attentive to. Because, yeah, not all spiritual directors are made equal. Because we're all human beings and we all have our faults and foibles and some have more skill and different degrees of holiness. So that's just going to be a difference. You could have a Padre Pio who can never know you before

and speak straight to your soul in the first moment, and then you have someone who's maybe not there. But so, yeah, the big thing is back to those keys of discernment that Father Mike had laid out, of discernment that Father Mike had laid out is whenever we get to the degrees of personal interior experiences or even exterior experiences of the mystical type, we need to bounce those off of someone

because if it's all in our own head, it's really easy to get off track. Now, that being said, rural areas do make that much more difficult. It doesn't necessarily have to be a religious or a priest. It could be a holy layperson that you know that can work, but to be prudent in your discernment of that. But then now with virtual access, like video calls and things like that, the opportunities really open up quite a bit. like video calls and things like that,

the opportunities really open up quite a bit. But I would say as you get further along, it's more and more significant. Someone made the point and they said, counseling and spiritual direction are both similar. They said they're always helpful, but they're sometimes necessary. Yeah, that's good.

Okay. Let's see. Here's some questions from somebody who wishes to remain anonymous. Is there an age limit to become a priest or religious, and are there exemptions, exceptions? Well, it depends diocese to diocese and community to community. So our general limit is usually 35 to 40. It's flexible.

Depends on individual situations. So say someone has been married and they have kids and for whatever reason they had a divorce and annulment, recognizing that there wasn't really a marriage in the first place. Key distinction there. Yes. Because we're not promoting that. We would wait for their kids to all be out of high school, be over 18 and be provided for.

Because otherwise when they come in, the needs of those kids fall to the community and that is a burden that we're not really able to take on. Now, some diocese, so diocesan priests become more flexible with that because the priests don't profess a vow of poverty. So they each maintain their own independent financial situation. They have their own investments, retirement. And so they could actually, I know of a number of different dioceses

who have priests with kids. They've been married, their wife died, something like that. And it works out. So case by case, but there's some communities who welcome older vocations. Especially I know some of the cloistered women's communities, some poor clairs. You could have a woman who's married. Her husband dies. Her kids are out of school. They're all adults.

And she can become a religious. So the big difference is, are they able, is the candidate able to fully and freely enter into the life and the requirements that are there? Here's his follow-up question, which might kind of shed light on some things. He says, what would be some reasonable ways and advice for a single guy with children to discern a possible future vocation

to the priesthood or religious life? I know a guy, previous marriage declared invalid. He is open to God's will of possible future vocation to the priesthood or religious life. I know a guy, previous marriage declared invalid. He is open to God's will of a future vocation when his children are, so yeah, this is kind of what you're saying, grown and in college. He is also open to authentic Catholic dating to discern potential second valid marriage in the meantime. Yeah. Yeah. So you're going to have to pick one or the other probably unless unless the providence of the lord makes it possible for both but uh the big thing would be to talk to your diocese like if you're really looking at the diocese or the community that you're interested in you have to

begin that conversation not necessarily that you're ready to go for it but you want to get information because it's it's kind of case by case. Here's a good question from patron Paul. Thanks for being a patron. He says, one habit to master before starting or applying to seminary. Ooh. Daily prayer, period. What does that look like for? Yeah, yeah.

Make it a little more concrete. Right, right. That's a great follow-up. Yeah, so if it's just the Our Father, it's not really going to be sufficient. It's good, but it's not sufficient. Because if you think about seminary religious life, we're going to pray the office, at least morning prayer, evening prayer, night prayer, at minimum. If you are ordained as a priest, you've got to do all the hours, officer readings. Now you don't have to do all of those, but the idea is to begin that process, to have probably a holy hour on a daily basis and some additional prayer.

And not all of it has to be filled with rote or pre-established prayer. Like to have a little bit of flexible prayer within that, like personal relationship type stuff. Because if you, so I remember a seminary professor of mine i'm on senior michael clay he was the dean at the time he made this point early on it was i think our first year of seminary and we're all there and it's uh intro to pastoral theology and he makes the point he gets very serious he says gentlemen if you are not daily becoming, going deeper and deeper into prayer and relationship with the Lord, if you're not growing in holiness,

leave now. We do not need you. Yeah. We already have enough of that. Wow. We're not functionaries. We're not social workers. We're not here just to fill a role.

We're here because of a relationship with the Lord and his call. That is so much more attractive than please come save our dying order. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's like unless the Lord is genuinely calling you to this life, to this ministry, do something else. It'll be better for you, and it'll be better for the church. Yeah, that's good. But if the Lord is calling you, go something else. It'll be better for you and it'll be better for the church. Yeah, that's good.

But if the Lord is calling you, go for it. Arthur, thanks for being a patron, says, Hey Matt, for years now I've had the desire for both monasticism and marriage. I've recently begun to become more serious about looking into monasticism. I'm a very outgoing and extroverted guy. And two objections that I hear a lot to looking into monasticism is, if you're extroverted, you probably couldn't handle it. And if you've had any desire for marriage, then you're not cut out for celibacy. What would you say to that?

Also, is there a saint that would be particularly helpful to pray to during my discernment? There's a lot there. Sure, sure. Well, so I mean, again, it's important to recognize the degrees of just the range of religious life that exists or monastic life. So there's monastic life and mendicant life, and then you have the apostolic life on the far end, the Jesuits, for example.

So you have within that is the type of ministry and type of community that you do but even within the monastic context is maybe you could be the porter it's like you greet everybody at the door you're going to talk to people yeah but so i would say if you're an extrovert a monastic cloistered community is probably not your best bet but there are others who aren't cloistered in such a strict sense where it's a it's a monastery but it's much more inviting to the local community so that's that's a possibility so i wouldn't jump to that extreme um as far as if you've had any inclination this is a good question yeah this is key this is key maybe reiterate it for those in the back yeah so the the question was if you have had any inclination to marriage then celibacy is not for you.

It's like, wrong. Yeah. Case in point. I don't know if you'd want a guy who's had no desire for marriage to join your order. It points to other things. If you had someone who was coming in

who did not, if their experience has been asexual is maybe a good way to define it. It points to other concerning things under the surface. Because think about theology of the body is like if you're a man or a woman and you have, no, it's not that you have to be like crazy. Okay. But if you have no sense of what you're, who you are attracted to,

that's actually, it can lead to some troubles. As a vocation director, that's a big yellow flag we'd have to dig into. So I would say not to run away from that, but it does raise questions. It's like, okay, can I live celibacy? That's perhaps the follow-up question. What does that look like?

And am I able to integrate that sense of attraction? I mean, we have Francis of Assisi himself, so maybe a good saint to pray to. He had a strong inclination towards marriage at one point where he had a thought of a wife and kids, maybe whenever the brothers were being particularly difficult. And at one point he threw himself into a thorn bush to try and tame the passions of the flesh.

Another time he stripped down naked and built a snow family out of that just to sort of teach himself. Now, I wouldn't go so far. Just so he knows a snow family is much more obedient than a real family. Right, right. So that was way too easy. And I think that was his point. So the point was like, yeah, this is your family.

So it's not so much of him trying to be crazy because we have to acknowledge the goodness of the human body. And later in his life, he did recognize that. He said he'd been too hard on Brother S. Yes. But the reality of, although we can have attractions in a different direction so long as we're able to live in accord with that. Now, so like St. Paul says,

that if someone is not able to live chastely, then they should get married. Like if it's chastely in the sense of to be celibate. I mean, those who are married are called the chaste, living as married couples. Right. Important defining features there. Indeed, yes.

But as far as the celibate life, if someone is not able able to they find they're not able to live the celibate life then perhaps looking at married life is a better option because they'll be able to have that outlet and yet grow on holiness yeah i remember chatting with peter craved on pines of the once and we both agreed that uh sitting on the toilet reading a book is the closest we as married men come to a monastery. Yeah, the moments of silence. You get to lock the door. There's no reason for you to come in here unless you're bleeding.

Go away. Great. Robert Bishop, thank you for being a patron, says, How can someone properly weigh their desires with against their talents in fulfilling God's will? I can feel frustrated when I've been gifted with certain talents that lend towards one community of religious life, yet my heart desires another that others have said doesn't fit who I am. How much weight should we give to others' views of what fits, if at all?

Thank you, Father. That's a great question. Yeah, it's a tough? Thank you, Father. Oh, yeah, that's a great question. Great question, yeah. Yeah, it's a tough thing to navigate, really. So it comes down to the reality that we may have gifts that aren't going to be used on the apparent surface. However, we might be surprised. So I think about myself as my engineering degree. I could teach at one of our schools in the engineering department if I pursued a higher degree.

But I haven't really felt called to that after I started to pursue it. But one of our other fires has. He got his master's degree in aeronautical engineering and is teaching as a brother at St. Francis University. Doing really incredible work. But to the question, though, is what other people see in you? It's important to be attentive to, but it can't be everything. Because we have to look and see what the Lord is calling us to and how he's inviting us to offer ourselves to him.

So it may not look like everybody else expects. Because I know there were friends of mine in college who were very much like, what are you doing? I know this was ridiculous. There were two or three of them. And whenever they found out I was going down to religious life, they said, oh, we have to take you to a strip club before you go in so you know what you're missing. And I thought, no. Like even if you kidnapped me and threw me into the car, I would not go in.

Like you've missed the point entirely. It's like saying to someone on his bachelor party, hey, I'm going to take you to a monastery. It's actually nothing like that. But it's kind of funny, you know. Yeah, yeah, they'll flip side. Right. It's like, no, that's not the point.

Like I have a sense of that. Yeah. So to see, it's important to recognize if you have a strong sense of self-awareness of yourself and the gifts that the Lord has given, and you feel called to use those within that life, then that's one thing. perhaps confirming. So again, it's this discernment between going back to conformity to God's will, conversion, confirmation, consistency, and then conviction. So it, okay, perhaps it's good to be attentive to how your heart is inclined towards a particular community and how they live. Well, check it out, visit them, talk to them. See if that would be a good fit. Because sometimes we have this, that's the other thing, is sometimes we have this idea that a community is this way and it's beautiful and it's attractive and perhaps it is.

But no matter what situation you're in, the website and the Come and See Weekend are not actually 100% accurate pictures of the life. It's kind of like dating. Like you're dating, you're engaged. It doesn't look like married life is going to look. Right. Yeah, that's good.

Tyson Williams, thanks for your super chat. He says, why are there major differences in belief between two Christians because they go to different churches example baptist catholic this is off topic oh sure sure sure i mean yeah i mean excuse me yep not to be pejorative and apostasy and yeah no i mean okay yeah so i think that kind of answers it yeah catholics believe we have the fullness of what christ wants, Jesus wants for Christians, rather.

And we think that our Protestants have many true things to be celebrated within their beliefs, but we also think they have some things they need to let go of and accept. And perhaps, I mean, within the context of vocation, like on those principles of discernment, it still falls under the categories. It's like, okay, well, they kind of deviated from conformity to God's will and conversion, and they jumped to the emotions, perhaps.

Or maybe there was an intellectual leap. Totally. We've got two priests down there. I was at St. Pete's today. He was talking about his Baptist background. Two priests there, both Baptist converts. Really? Yeah.

Shannon Walsh, thanks for your being a patron. She says, when are we ready to start actively discerning? I'm a recent revert and have some healing to do before I think I can truly enter into discernment. At the same time, I'm aware that there are wounds that won't be healed this side of heaven and I'll never feel truly ready to discern. It's a great question.

Yeah, yeah. That's a very, very good question. So we all have stuff. No matter who you are, no matter what very very good question so we all have stuff no matter who you are no matter what situation you're in like we all have baggage and so it yeah because i remember talking to a guy once who's uh who was discerning and he's a he's a friar now it worked out well but he there's this fear that we have this idea that we have to be perfect perhaps or reach a certain stage of perfection which there's a degree of that that's true before we can enter into these permanently committed relationships vocations whether it be married life or religious life or priesthood because

what we run into is if we are below the certain threshold of health, say psychological health, spiritual health, physical health, but physical health is less relevant here, this vocation is going to help us to grow in holiness, but it's not going to fix all our problems. Right? Having the idea that if I marry this person, they're going to fulfill me.

Or if I'm going to become a religious or a priest and that's going to fulfill me. I was like, well, we've got another thing coming because it's no matter what vocation, again, it's hard. And so we have to be in a place to be able to be generous and free and to

give of ourselves to such an extent that so we have to be at a certain point where we can relate in a healthy way we can give of ourselves generously but it doesn't have we don't have to be perfect at the same time so it's this kind of back and forth so the idea a vocation director can help you in that process or spiritual director someone who's kind of outside of you who maybe lives in that context of life. I mean, if you think about if you were, you yourself got married, I mean, and people do it all the time where they enter, they try to jump beyond the state of health and they enter into say marriage, for example, and they're not really healthy. It blows up pretty

quick. Yeah. But I like what you said here too, you know, the idea that we're going to wait around until I'm finally healed and then start discerning. Sure. But as you've pointed out, you know, going to a come-and-see weekend, praying, being discerning, even beginning to walk down this path, they're not going to grab you and ordain you or commit you immediately. It's going to take years.

Yeah. And so the nice benefit there is say, for example, from our common sees we'll interview guys and it's, it's pretty intensive. Uh, so there's degrees you come on a visit and you can visit and experience our life. But then as you get closer, we will interview for an application and that's a three, you have three one hour interviews with different friars covering ranges of spiritual formation, human formation, relationships, and an education background type stuff. And so we get to know you in quite a bit of depth in a morning.

Yeah. But then at the end of the weekend, we can either say, yeah, you're in a good spot or actually we'd like you to wait. We think you're a good candidate, but we want you to work on this, this and this. Maybe develop some friendships, go to counseling for a bit, get some inner healing or work on like daily consistent prayers i imagine it's crushing for men who think they're cold and then you say no you can't join us it can be tough yeah it can be tough so that's where and and i talk to different guys and sometimes they'll go

to different communities after that to try again and And maybe that's the Lord's plan. Because, again, like spiritual directors are not all made equal. Vocation directors aren't either. And so it's tough. It's really a tough thing because. But that should give people. Sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Continue.

Yeah, it's tough because, like, I have to come into this session, chat with this guy who's committed time. He came for the weekend. He's been thinking about this for who's committed time he came for the weekend he's been thinking about this for who knows how long and tell him you know what this doesn't seem like it's a good fit and it would be easy or it would be simpler perhaps on my part to say no that's it and not really give a reason but i try to be very intentional and give the guy some direction and say, the Lord is calling you to a life of holiness. And it doesn't seem like this is the track that that is, but these are the strengths that we see in you. These are the areas where it might not, where you need to maybe pay some

attention. Might not work so well if you don't get those straightened out, but then maybe you can look in this direction. And people should take heart in that, in a sense. You know, if they're discerning, they're going to come and see a weekend, that you're not the only one involved in this discernment. Right, right, right. And so this is maybe a key thing to be attentive to, is if a vocation director is doing a good job,

their hierarchy of discernment is what's good for the church first, then what's good for the community or the diocese, and then what's good for the individual person. Now, all three should fit together, obviously. If it's good for the person, really, it's going to be good for the community and the church. But to think about someone who's coming in who, like who I would say, like, no, this isn't really a good fit, if they have sort of an extreme mental health situation

and they would be difficult to live with or they could hurt someone in ministry because most of what we do is talk to people. And a lot of what we do is talk to people who are in vulnerable states in their life. Yeah. And so we have to be very delicate, not so much that we like water down the truth or anything of that sort, but to have good empathy and be patient and be kind in a sense of being able to invite them to that next step of holiness and to console them in their sorrow.

And if we don't do that well, and say someone's on a come and see weekend and I see that they don't do that well, it's going to be better for this person that they find that out now than wait down the road. Yeah, for sure. Here's a good question, and I'm sure you get asked it a lot. It has to do with loneliness. So I can imagine somebody saying, like, gosh, don't you get lonely? As if no married person has ever felt that way.

I was going to say that. But Kevin Albright says, loneliness, how does it affect their life and the lives of other priests within the diocese? Sure. Yeah. And I'll make that distinction that as a religious, it's a different experience than a diocesan priest. But I do have some friends who are diocesan priests, my cousins are diocesan priests. So I have some sense of it.

And that is a key aspect of discerning and looking at, okay, which call is the Lord placing upon my life? So as a religious, yeah, there are times where you do get lonely. I'm sure, like you said, as a married man, I've heard instances where you have a married man lying in bed next to his wife and he is lonely. And so what we can see from loneliness, loneliness though is I heard it put this way once It's a manifestation of our infinite longing for the Lord It'll only be satisfied with the Lord And so the fact that we experience it even if we're in a great wonderful beautiful life-giving committed relationship For our life the whole of our life.

And we experience loneliness in that. It's a sign that even this vocation is not the fullness of fulfillment. It's not the fullness of what the Lord has for me. But there's something beyond this life. It's heaven. But yeah, so we do. We do at times. I have times that I've definitely experienced it where I've been in the friary and other friars are busy with different ministry commitments.

And maybe I have an off evening and I was thinking I would hang out with somebody. So this is where we have to, in any vocation, we have to kind of get over our narcissism. Our inclination towards that because i can sit around in my room and wait for somebody to come knock on my door or text me and say hey do you want to do something which is okay that happens like if somebody's if there are guys who are generous and i want to be committed to that communal life then that's good but why aren't i that guy yeah to start something to reach reach out, to promote that, because that's my own inclination to narcissism.

Now there's this distinction though, is there's isolation, which is the unhealthy take on that. Where it's like, I just go to my room and separate because I'm not feeling good versus solitude, which is intentional time with the lord and everybody needs that and now each of us have different ways different amounts that we can get like you said the bathroom is those moments of quiet where you have a short pause all right i think but religious have a little more opportunity for that especially if you're more monastic you have even more occasion but take

some time for prayer and retreat but so that's it's looking at those opportunity or those those occasions where you could be inclined towards loneliness and directing them to the lord and they become solitude i like that that's a good distinction uh will herman thanks for being a patron says the idea of discerning a vocation was something I never heard of as a Protestant before becoming Catholic. Why is it so emphasized by Catholics but not other Christians? Well, I can only speak from the Catholic perspective because I've been Catholic all my life, but maybe I can track it down a little bit. So it seems that we have this, well, we have, I mean, everybody who's Protestant can get married, right?

No matter what path you pursue, if you're a pastor, you can be married. So it's either or. So it's a sense you feel a call on your life, and you go and you become a pastor, a leader. Maybe you use different words. Elder, yeah. Different language too. Like, yeah, the Lord places a call on your life and you go and you become a pastor, a leader. Maybe you use different words. Elder, yeah. Different language too. Like, yeah, the Lord places a call on your life to something.

Right. And it certainly feels like the expectation, well, maybe not the expectation, but it seems like you'll get married. This is what you do. Find a wife and see what the Lord's call is. Whereas there's a lot of, but that's a good point though because we still do talk about vocation in a pretty intense way as it pertains to marriage and discernment.

I'm sure there are some Protestant groups who do that. Some perhaps are less intensive on it because some of the ones I've known of is they take discernment very, very seriously. Of course, yeah. But it's perhaps different because it's less categorized. Ah, that's a good point, yeah. Like us as a church, it's all systematized and laid out in canon law and it's all very prescribed and formal. Yeah.

And that's a good thing. But within the Protestant denominations, it's much more fluid and personal and less ecclesial. Teresa, thanks for being a patron, says, why don't we talk about the single life more often now we've addressed this

feel free to take another run of it if you want whether it be permanent or before another vocation why do we the church in my experience

regard the single life as no more than a period to get out of rather than one in which to content I don't know and productive or which to content and productive. Or to be content and productive.

That is an interesting question, like to get out of. We think of single life as no more than a period to get out of rather than one in which we can be content and productive. Yeah, I would say probably because it often is transitory for a lot of people. Yeah. But I think to her point is like, yeah, we could spend more time and we should perhaps because that is probably part of why we have so much trouble as far as people trying to discern their vocation. Because they're in that and they're looking towards the future.

But the idea is that here and now we are called to be saints. Yeah. We have so many examples of young, faithful, single Catholic people who have become saints. I think about even, uh, like people who don't arrive at that final destination. I think about a Capuchin friar from the Pittsburgh province who I went to seminary with. And great friend, good man, very holy. And he was going along, going through seminary. And then he had this, he was riding his bike in D.C. and went over a bump.

He didn't wreck or anything like that, just a small bump. And later that evening he started to get sick next day very very very sick and they took him to the hospital turns out going over the bump ruptured a artery internally and over the period of a day he bled out internally and they got him in the hospital but it was too late so he died he was in solemn vows but he was never ordained yeah and so he never arrived at that final state of vocation. Wow.

No, he was a religious. He was a solemnly professed brother. But the fact is, like, looking towards where we are currently, he was living a very holy life. So that's the thing of if we focus on the single life as where we begin. I like that. Like we can be holy in the single life. I like that.

Our destination as Christians isn't priesthood or marriage. It's heaven. Exactly. And these vocations are meant to help facilitate that. Exactly. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, it's almost like the same amount of pressure that I felt under when I was in my senior year of high school,

and everyone was like, what are you going to do with your life? I'm like, I don't bloody know. I suppose that's how single people feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I'm living it. Do you think about that? Oh, yeah, every time I come home. So are you dating anybody?

Yeah. Are you dating somebody? Lots of pressure. But that's fine. That's your mother. She wants grandkids. That's understandable. Yeah, but to keep in mind that no matter the context,

so this is interesting. It's like religious life, professing religious vows is not a sacrament per se. It's a sacramental. So although they're vows and although they're perpetual or solemn vows, it's this sense of it's simply a fuller living out of the baptismal promises of that sacrament. So it's not something new in and of itself. I mean, it is, but it isn't. So it's kind of this interesting take.

So it's the idea of the vocation of the lay faithful, whether they be single, whether they be married. Yeah, awesome. Okay. Tell us a bit about where people can go to learn more about the TORs. Sure, sure. Yeah, so our website is franciscans, with an S, tor.org. Okay.

So franciscans, tor.org. And you'll be the vocation. You are the vocation director right now. And I will continue to be. Could people get in touch with you if they're watching this? So at the bottom of that is my email. It's easy enough. It's vocations at franciscanstor.org.

And yeah, so we have social media pages, things like that. Instagram, Facebook, and the like to be able to kind of see how things are going with us, different updates. And yeah, so things are going pretty well that way. Got a couple of guys in application. One guy accepted already for this next year. Good stuff. Doing pretty well. Well, great.

Well, thank you for being on the show. Yeah, good thing. And if you're watching right now, we would love to hear from you below in the comment section. Tell us maybe your experiences of discerning God's will, what's been helpful, what hasn't. It'll also be cool for people to kind of share what they are discerning right now, just to have the encouragement of

people in this community. Thank you so much for being here. If you are not yet subscribed to Pints with Aquinas, be sure to do that and then click that bell button. And that way Google will be forced to let you know whenever we put out a new video. And we've got two videos coming out this week where I'll be interviewing the headmaster of St. Gregory the Great's Academy tomorrow, week um where i'll be interviewing the headmaster of saint gregory the greats academy tomorrow who's the headmaster of this amazing boarding school for boys and then later on the week we have a debate between jimmy aiken and his name is i forgot his name jordan cooper who is a lutheran pastor youtuber and so they're going to be debating justification so be sure to subscribe and click that bell button that way you'll know when that comes out.

So cool. Is that good? Anything else before we go or is that great? That's great. Yeah. Just be holy and the Lord will show you. Amen. Thanks so much.

Glad to be with you. Sweet. That's it. Okay. Cool. Very cool. Thank you. Yeah. សូវាប់បានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបាូវាប់ពីបានប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់� Kanskje vi kan ta en kål? Thank you. Bye.