Pints With Aquinas - IN STUDIO DEBATE: Is Marriage Bad For Men? - Pearl Davis Vs Trent Horn

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

 @TheCounselofTrent  and  @JustPearlyThings  join the show for our first ever in studio debate! The debate focuses on if Marriage harms the lives of men financially, psychologically, and sexually. Support the Show (and see our Interview with Jordan Peterson): https://mattfradd.locals.com  Show Sponsors: https://strive21.com/matt https://hallow.com/mattfradd

Music So The The So The End Good day, good day and welcome to Pines with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. Today we will be debating the resolution is marriage a bad deal for men? In the affirmative we have Pearl Davis and then in the negative, we have Trent Horn. We're going to have 10-minute opening statements, 5-minute rebuttals, 20-minute cross-examinations, a time of Q&A for 30 minutes, and then 5-minute closings. The reason we wanted to do that is sometimes in these discussions, people interrupt each other and the person doesn't get to make the case that they'd like to make.

So that's why we're doing that. But before we jump into it, I was wondering if you could both tell us a bit about yourself. Pearl, ladies first. Hi, my name is Pearl. I have the YouTube channel Just Pearl-y Things. We have two million subscribers on there. Well done. I've interviewed over a thousand men and women on marriage, dating, and relationships. I also have a call-in show. I've interviewed people all across the world from London to Africa to Vegas to California. And, oh, I'm doing a divorce documentary. So that'll be out in the next year.

Where will that be, Dina? My website, theodocitynetwork.com. Okay, thank you. My name is Trent Horn. I am an apologist for Catholic answers and I am the host of the Council of Trent podcast on YouTube. I'm the author of about a dozen books and I'm married and blessed with three wonderful children.

All right. Well, are you ready? Yeah. Whenever you start, I'll click the timer. You've got 10 minutes. Okay. All right. Are you ready? Yeah, whenever you start I'll click the timer. You've got ten minutes. Okay All right, so I Don't know I'm kind of nervous you will do fantastic. These things are always weird. It's always we get people into a room

And tell them to disagree with each other in it. This is what my wife and I should do when we argue Yeah, ten minutes go Yeah, okay. All right. Take your time. You're terrific. I'm going to go. All right. So, marriage today is a bad deal for men, meaning that it is more likely to not work out than it is to work out. Fifty-one percent of those that sign up for marriage are not in a better place.

Out of a hundred men, at least 50 are not getting a good deal, essentially. I would like to clarify that I am not talking about some religious sect. I am talking about average Americans. On top of that, there is a huge legal risk you are facing as a man. Again, I'm not here to discuss the religiosity of marriage, but I'm here to talk about the outcomes of marriage in 2024 as well as the legal ramifications for getting married. I've interviewed over a thousand women and men on marriage and relationships and have been putting together a documentary on family court and have found that most men have no idea what they are signing up for when they get

married. Marriage is objectively a bad deal for men in 2024. What I would consider a bad deal is where the risk outweighs the reward. What I would consider a successful marriage is an obedient wife and staying together for a lifetime. To put it simply, men want sex, silence, and sandwiches from a woman they are attracted to. Unfortunately,

women are not offering that in 2024. Women have zero interest in being wives. Gen Z women rank men seventh on their priority list, coming behind things like education, travel, and experiences. Millennial women are not much better. They rank men as fourth behind their careers, education, and finances. I personally have interviewed over a thousand women from London to Miami to Vegas and even the suburbs of Chicago. And I can tell you firsthand that most young women have no interest in being wives. This can be shown by women's outcomes and choices. Many men like Trent have been married for years and have no idea what the dating market is like for young people. One out of three women have had an abortion in the United States. One out of four women has an STD. 90% of women have been on birth control at some point in

their life. 80% of sexually active women will contract HPV at some point in their lifetime. The average woman is 5'3 and 170 pounds. On top of that, men can never really know the sexual past of the woman they are marrying. Dating apps have made promiscuity more accessible and easier to hide. Women have a great incentive to lie about their sexual past. The CDC reports that the average number of sexual partners for a woman is between 4 and 8, but I can tell you from interviews that I have done that below 10 is considered low nowadays. This is especially crazy considering once a woman has over 5 sexual partners she is less likely to have a stable marriage. After women have had over 10 sexual partners the chance of a happy marriage drops to merely 14%.

Only 3% of women report waiting for marriage for a religious reason. A quarter of women have a mental illness. Over half of women between the ages of 18 to 29 have at least one tattoo. The average woman has at least $26,000 worth of debt. And on top of that, young women are officially out cheating and out drinking men. That makes marrying a woman today a higher risk than times of the past.

But let's look at marriage. What benefits are given to men in marriage? A hundred years ago, men would have gotten a debt-free virgin who gave him four plus children and was expected to obey him. Unfortunately, now modern marriage is simply whore management. The majority of women

are not known to be obedient wives. How do we know this? From one, we have phrases like it's cheaper to keep her in happy wife, happy life. If women were so obedient and good wives, why are all of the phrases focused on bending to the will of the woman? On top of that, we can look at women's choices during marriage. Some common problems that I have found is that women gain a significant amount of weight in marriage. On average, women gain 24 pounds within the first five years of marriage. It would be one thing if women were giving men four plus children like they were a hundred years ago, but on average women give men one to two children. The other issue we have is sexless marriages. When

we look at the boomer generation, a third of them are in sexless marriages. How many men have reported that women stop sleeping with them after they have children? How many men would sign up for marriage if they knew that they no longer would have sex, their wives would no longer have sex with them? Now, while this is not the majority of those marriages, that is still not insignificant. Men are not even guaranteed an in-shape wife who sleeps with them. Now let's talk about the legal ramifications of marriage and family for men. I do not say this with a happy heart but there is simply no legal way to stop a woman who wants to divorce you from doing so. My logic is quite simple. When you pay people to do the wrong thing more people

will do it, even seemingly good people. Unfortunately men the divorce system heavily benefits women and the stats reflect that. Women file for divorce 70% of the time and 73% of the time. The reason given is irreconcilable differences. This does not make sense considering people date on average three years before marriage. What differences did you not notice in those three years? This makes sense considering the rising body counts and how promiscuous women are going into marriage. This is not only devastating to men, but also deadly. Men are nine times more likely to commit suicide

following a divorce. Child support is tied to social security in Title 4D, and if you cannot pay, the government can take away your money directly from your bank account, ruin your credit score, take away even your phishing license, take money directly from your paycheck,

and even throw you in jail. The best interest of the child is a principle to ensure government policies safeguard the rights and holistic needs of children. It is standard used in family law to make decisions impacting a child in matters of adoption, child custody, guardianship, and visitation. This principle means that any situation should be looked at from the child's point of view. This sounds nice in theory, but this law is weaponized against men all across this country. This means the best interest of the child, even in cases where you are lied to about

paternity. For example, in California, if you were on the child's birth certificate after the age of two and you were lied to about paternity, you were on the hook for child support for 16 years. There are many ways that women weaponize the family court in order to drain resources from men, but I'm going to list a couple I have seen. I have seen temporary restraining orders set to separate fathers from children. Men can be kicked out of the house they pay for on a moment's notice with a restraining order. In that time period

between her filing it and going to court, the mother can put the father on child support because technically she is spending more time with the children. What is not considered is that the woman spent more time with the kids because she had not been letting the dad see them due to the restraining order. This is not illegal for women to do and there is no punishment. I interviewed one man in London who had spent over $100,000 fighting for his children and still had not seen them in two years. I interviewed another man whose wife tried to transition his kid without his permission. I interviewed another man who, oh sorry wait, I interviewed another man whose wife was trying to transition his kid without his permission.

It took him three years and over $50,000 to get custody. Imagine if he did not have the money. Many men go into bankruptcy trying to fight for their children. A case I covered in the state of Chicago, a father had paid over a million dollars to his ex-wife during a divorce and was still thrown in jail because he could not keep up with his $10,000 a month payment. The child support payment is calculated by current earnings, so if a man loses his job, which many do due to the stress of divorce, he is still on the hook for child support even if he cannot afford the money. Child support is given based on the amount of time that children get with their, that

dads are given with the children and that women have incentive to not give men access to their children and are rewarded for doing so. Many men in this process find themselves homeless because they cannot keep up with child support payments. The loss of a child is one of the leading indicators of mental illness. Many men that I have interviewed

have compared this to death. Losing a child is, they would rather die than live a life without their children. And the stats show that many men pick death over this reality. Another thing that most do not know is that family court is not based on evidence. It's based on a balance of probabilities rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. This means it is easier to allege than a man abused you in family court without evidence. Mainstream cases like Amber Heard and Johnny Depp show just how easy it is for women to ruin a man's

reputation with no evidence. Many times the women are actually given free resources from domestic abuse centers in order to assist women in this. In many areas, the courts have alleged that the definition of abuse has changed in the last 50 years to include things like emotional abuse, financial abuse, and have also changed the definition of rape from forced sex to sex without consent. The problem you get when you change these definitions to be more broad is that women are allowed to say things like, yelling is abuse and he did not let me spend $5,000 on my credit card, therefore he is abusive. I have seen cases where men were accused of raping a woman the first time they hooked up and they were married 10 years after. Women weaponized this

against them. The problem you get with these definitions that are more broad that women are allowed to abuse the system. As I said before, losing a child is like death to a lot of men. One area that we studied was veteran suicide. 44 veterans a day commit suicide and over 400,000 men have died due to suicide in the last 25 years. To put it into perspective, since the Revolutionary War, 650,000 have died in battle. In 25 years, we have hit two-thirds of that. Terrence Popp has worked with veterans for 15 years and through our personal research, I've found that 70% of veteran suicides have come in contact with family court in the last five years. Family court is literally killing men every day and nobody is talking about it.

On top of that, fathers have to watch their mothers raid children in a way that sets up their children for failure. Single mother homes account for 63% of youth suicides, 90% of the homeless in runaways, and the majority of school shooters. Single father homes fare similar to two parents' homes. I personally have interviewed men who had to watch a mother try to transition their kid and I had one case where another mother's new boyfriend had accusations of being a pedophile and there was nothing the man could do. Let's go over

this again. The upside is that men get a woman who has slept with at least four other men and maybe two children out of the deal. On average, the woman will be 170 pounds and five three. Odds are she at least likely has one tattoo, some debt, and maybe even a previous child in tow. The downside is you can lose half your assets, your children, your reputation, homelessness, and you can be put on child support alimony and even thrown in jail. Personally, I would never sign a business deal that encourages that kind of risk. But for whatever reason, men are encouraged to sign a business deal that does.

Okay, you literally finished with one second to spare. You crushed that. Oh yeah, thank you. But someone who's not used to time debates, you did really well. Okay, Trent, whenever you're ready, I'll click the 10 minute mark. Excuse me.

All right. Well, Pearl has the burden of showing that marriage is a bad deal for men, and all I have to do is show that she hasn't made her case. And notice in Pearl's opening statement, she never cites a study of married men in general to see whether they think marriage is a bad deal. So to show that she's wrong, I'm going to point out three fallacies that Pearl makes in her arguments. So first, there's the wrong target fallacy. For example, Pearl talks about how marriage is a bad deal because

men are sometimes mistreated in child custody cases. That's not unique to marriage. If you cohabit or even just hook up with a woman, you can still father a child and deal with custody issues. However, marriage makes a man the presumed father of the child with natural rights unmarried fathers don't have, even though unmarried fathers can still be liable to pay child support. The children of unmarried men are ten times more likely to be aborted, and if the child does survive the pregnancy, he's three to six times more likely to live in poverty. The hazards of unmarried, much less for married men. Another wrong target is women themselves.

Pearl says marriage is bad for men because modern women are worse than previous generations of women, but that says nothing about marriage. If modern women are good enough for hookups that can result in children, or cohabiting relationships that superficially feel like marriage but are far more likely to fail, then modern women are good enough for marriage which has less harms for men. And Pearl can't use these stats to dunk on women because men are also worse than previous generations. Modern men are just as promiscuous and are even more overweight than modern women. A 2019 experience study found that men carry more credit, auto, and mortgage debt than women. Millennial and Gen Z men have weaker grip strength and make less money than older men did at their age. Pearl has not shown that women are not good enough for men.

Instead, the data shows men and women are both in bad shape compared to previous generations. But there's hope. Marriage is the best way for men and women to mature together and bring out the best in one another. Second, there's the anecdote fallacy. One sad story about a marriage does not show marriage itself is bad,

because for every sad story Pearl can bring up, I can statistically bring up two to three good stories about happy marriages. And there are many stories about sad, sick, lonely men who never marry. Pearl cannot prove her case with anecdotes. She needs actual data that proves married men are worse off than unmarried men,

but no such data exists. Even marriage skeptics will only argue at best that marriage doesn't increase happiness. They all agree that men who marry are better off concerning health, wealth, and happiness than men who never marry. If Pearl can't provide peer-reviewed data to prove otherwise, then her case fails. Third, there's the comparison fallacy.

Instead of stories involving the risks of marriage, Pearl often at times just points to the risks of marriage itself and says that's a good enough reason to not marry. She says just as you wouldn't fly on a plane that has a 5% chance of crashing,. She says, just as you wouldn't fly on a plane that has a 5% chance of crashing, you shouldn't get married, even if it has similar low odds of divorcing. But if you look at the worst outcomes of one choice while ignoring the worst outcomes of another choice,

that's the comparison fallacy. It's like someone who thinks driving is safer than flying because they only read a bunch of stories about plane crashes and never think about car crashes. Of course, flying is far safer than driving and marriage is less risky than non-marriage. You cannot compare the best outcomes of non-marriage to the worst outcomes of marriage. To be fair, you must compare the typical outcomes in both cases, be it flying versus driving or marriage versus non-marriage. And Pearl exaggerates the harms of marriage and ignores the harms of not marrying. For example, according to the National Center

for Family and Marriage Research, the median length of all marriages is not seven to eight years, as Pearl often claims. That's the length of marriages that end in divorce, not all marriages. The median length for all marriages is 21 years. And the divorce rate is closer to 35%, not 50%. 50% was a future projection from the 80s that has since been falsified. In fact, we are now seeing the lowest divorce rates since 1970, about 14 divorces per 1,000 married women. For weekly churchgoers, the divorce rate is half the average rate. Also, just because 35% of marriages end in divorce, that doesn't mean you have a one in three chance

of absolute misery. Divorce sucks, but people typically survive it intact. In fact, men do better than women after divorce. Men's income increases by 20% on average, while women are twice as likely to fall into poverty after divorce. Alimony is only paid out in less than 10% of divorces. And according to the US Census Bureau, the average child support payment is $441 a month, of which only 60% usually ends up getting paid.

Moreover, women do not get child custody 90% of the time, as others claim. 95% of custody cases are mutually agreed upon outside of the courtroom. Women get full custody 40% of the time, men get full custody 20%, and shared custody makes up the remaining 40%. Women usually get full custody because men don't ask for it. In a Massachusetts study of 24,000 divorces, only 8% of men sought custody, and 94% of them got full or partial custody. Finally, a 2006 study in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health showed that while divorced men were 27% more likely to die prematurely, 58% of never married men

were more likely to die early. Never married men risk growing older and having few or no social connections. Pearl can tell lots of horror stories apparently about men going through messy divorces. And my wife, who is a registered nurse, can tell you all kinds of horror stories about men dying alone in the hospital, spending every day by themselves, staring at the same blotch on the ceiling, because they had no one to ever come and visit them. Now, some men desire marriage and are unable to find a wife, which is tragic. But rejecting marriage out of fear is like the person who refuses to go to the hospital because he worries about medical errors but doesn't think about people dying at home from easily treatable illnesses.

The comparison fallacy once again. That's probably why 65% of divorced men get remarried. 93% of men say they would marry their spouse again if they could do marriage over. If Pearl is right, as she said in the past, that marriage is a death sentence for men, then why do most men voluntarily go back to death row after they've been released, i.e. divorced? Well, it's because these men correctly identify what Pearl has failed to grasp. Marriage is not bad for men. It's not a bad deal for men. In fact, marriage is typically a good deal for men. It's no wonder God told Adam in the book of Genesis, it's not good for man to be alone.

And so he made Eve to remedy this problem. Now to make it clear, it is a lie that half of all marriages end in divorce. The truth is that most marriages last a lifetime and 80 to 90% of them identify as happy. A Gallup survey conducted between 2008 and 2020 of 800,000 adults showed that married people rate their wellbeing 12 to 17 points higher

than unmarried people. The General Social Survey from the University of Chicago, a gold standard in sociological research, shows that married men are twice as likely to rate their lives as very happy when compared to non-married men. And the majority of married men, in fact, I'd say 80% of them, identify themselves as happy.

Married men also make 10 to 20% more money per hour, and they have more sex than never married men. Pearl says that men face sexless marriages, but the general social survey shows that unmarried men are twice as likely to have a sexless life than a married man. Studies also show that even men who end up divorced live longer, are economically better off, and are just as, or even happier than a married man. Studies also show that even men who end up divorced live longer, are economically better

off, and are just as or even happier than never married men. Now pro might say these studies only prove that happier, richer men get married and unhappy, poor men don't get married. But when you look at the typical married man, he is not a six foot two inch rich Chad. Moreover, if a man chooses to marry, then he needs to become marriageable which involves developing positive traits that both make him desirable to women And improve his own self-esteem at the same time, but I'm not arguing that marriage makes people happy I'm arguing against Pearl's claim that marriage is a bad deal for men and steals their happiness That's just not true. If that marriage is best. You can't interrupt when I'm talking.

You get a five minute after this. He's got one minute. You're okay. There'll be time. I'm excited for that. In fact, marriage is the best way for men to not just hang on to happiness, but to increase it. The Harvard study of adult development,

which tracked people for 80 years, said good relationships were the number one predictor of happiness. And it showed that men who married ended up happier and lived seven to 17 years longer than men who never married. And that's a study for people over 80 years of their life. When I was unmarried, let me actually go through here.

Well, yeah, when I was unmarried, I thought that having two folding chairs and a TV on the ground were appropriate living room furniture. But when you're married, your wife shows you something better and she roots for you. A 2013 Harvard study showed that married men are less likely to get cancer and married men are even more likely to survive cancer, showing that

marriage is a good deal for men. So finally, I'd be remiss to point out neither men nor women invented marriage. God invented marriage. He gave it to the human race. Christ raised it to the level of a sacrament. And Pearl would have to give overwhelming data to show that something that God gave us is actually a bad deal for men. And she won't be able to do that because the data doesn't support that.

Indeed, for most men, marriage is the primary engine that helps them live a long, healthy, and happy life. In this time. All right, good job, Trent. You have a five minute rebuttal poll whenever you're ready. So how does the, do I ask him questions during the rebuttal? That'll be after the break.

This is basically your time, five minutes. He won't be able to interrupt you. You can try to refute the case he just made. Got it, okay. And would it help you if you saw the time? Yeah, sure. Do you mind putting that there just so? Oh, I didn't know that was there.

Yeah, that's his phone, putting that there? Just I didn't know that was there. Yeah, that was his that's his phone But whenever you're ready Okay One second One thing I noticed in your arguments is that you constantly attribute all of the positive things that happen in marriage You just automatically attribute them to women. You automatically attribute them to that marriage is the cause. I would disagree with that. I would say it's a bad deal because at the end of the day, women are paid to leave. You never addressed any solutions that you have. What solutions does the church have? Women don't want to be married.

Men cannot make women marry that do not want to be married. Women are getting STDs. Women are getting abortions. The majority of women today are not marriageable. They're overweight. They're out of shape. And you know, saying that marriage is good isn't going to change that isn't going to make women want to be wives. You know, the next thing that I noticed that you know saying that marriage is good isn't going to change that isn't going to make women want to be wives. You know the next thing that I noticed that you said was that unmarried men are more likely to have a sexless life. Obviously. Obviously. You know men that cannot attract women obviously are not duh. And you never address that men are nine times more likely to commit suicide after marriage.

You know, even if it's a 5%, you know, one out of 50, even if it's a one out of 50 chance or one out of 100 chance that you commit suicide, you know, that's negligence. That's negligence, you know. Any car would be recalled if 1% of people died. I just think at the end of the day that I would never sign a deal that one party is paid to leave and you're not addressing the lack of quality of women that are on the market

today. Men cannot make women want to be wives. And if women don't want to be wives, basically, it's not gonna happen. The other thing is that, you know, if marriage is such a good deal, why aren't men signing up? Good products, technically, they get off the market quickly. Men naturally, they want to do things that make sense.

And the issue that you're gonna get is that, again, the quality of women is lower than ever before. The cost of marriage is higher than ever before. And until that changes, until some of the laws change, it is just not a good deal for men. You still have two minutes and 41 seconds if you'd like to keep going. No, it's okay.

Okay. So you have a five minute rebuttal, Trent, whenever you wanna begin. Sure. If you want that, you's okay. Okay So you have a five minute rebuttal trent whenever you want to begin sure if you want that you're welcome Really All right go for it All right. So I want to focus on one very clear fact that refutes pearl's case that She has not cited any studies looking at men and seeing what do they think? I mean, if marriage is such a bad deal for men, we don't need Pearl to tell us that.

Why don't we just ask men themselves? Men, ask married men, were you given a bad deal? Were you given a raw deal? You go online, you go to Amazon, you go to all other kinds of places, you can see people write product reviews and saying whether they got a bad deal? You go online, you go to Amazon, you go to all other kinds of places. You can see people write product reviews and saying whether they got a bad deal out of something. And you should probably trust someone

who actually tried the product and wrote a review instead of someone writing reviews about a product they'd never tried before. And I've already shown the data that married men identify as being more happier than unmarried men. They live longer, they're healthier. So marriage is

a good deal for them. It certainly isn't a bad deal for them. They get many benefits out of that, and Pearl has not refuted that. All she's been reduced to saying is that marriage is a bad deal for men because apparently women aren't worth marrying, which is just not true. She's pointing out flaws in women, but she gives a pass to men. It's a kind of reverse form of simping, if you will, because men also fall under this. So let's talk about some of the things that she brought up about the issues of being sexless,

saying that 20% of marriages are sexless. That's only if you include senior citizens in the entire framework. As I said, the general social survey shows that unmarried men are twice as likely to be sexless as married men. So if you're a guy and if that's something that is important to you in your life,

marriage is the covenant through which sex makes the most sense, you have the most access to it, and it's the safest and best thing for you and for the children that will proceed from your union. She made a big deal about weight. Women are overweight, women gain 20 pounds in marriage. She's probably referring to the Gordon Larson 2009 study on that, but that same study showed that married men

gain 30 pounds over the same period. Unmarried cohabiting women gain 18 pounds during that period, and single women gain 15 pounds during that period. So all gain 15 pounds during that period. So all that proves is as we get older, instead of growing up, we tend to grow out. That's just life. And it's nice as you get married to have someone else to grow up and out with you. And mature people recognize that and don't just reject marriage because of a biological

fact of reality. Women don't want wanna be wives. There's no evidence Pearl gave to support that conclusion. At least I can look at anecdotally. Think about it in your own life. How many times have you heard a girl lament that her boyfriend, she'd love to get married, but her boyfriend doesn't want to get married

or he's dragging his feet? How many times have you, you can't interrupt them till the time is over? How many times have you heard a guy say I really wish I could get married but my girlfriend is just dragging her feet Women are the ones women control access to be put it crudely women control access to sex and men control access to marriage That's how it's worked traditionally and it still works today Pearl asked if marriage is such a good deal Why aren't women deal, why aren't men and women signing up for it? That's like asking if exercise is good for you, why don't more people go to the gym? Why is the gym usually empty?

It's because marriage is hard. You have to say no to a lot of things as a man if you choose to get married. You have to say no to things your little lizard brain tells you are good, like trying to hook up with as many women as possible. So people may not probably don't sign up for it because they don't realize the benefits and they listen to the lower part of the brain instead of the rational part of the brain that could read studies covering hundreds of thousands of men showing that they're happier, live longer and have more sustaining fulfilled lives than being unmarried. So some of of the things that, yeah, when Pearl brings up, oh,

that men are, divorced men are nine times more likely to commit suicide, she's probably referring to the Kipoosa 2003 study. It's not that, that's not men are nine times more likely to commit suicide who are divorced. They're nine times more like, divorced men are nine times more likely to commit suicide than divorced women. But that's only because men are just more likely to complete suicide anyways than women. They tend to choose more violent means to do it. But when you look at the data, never married men are still just as if not more likely to commit suicide than divorced men.

So that's the comparison fallacy once again. You talk about all of the risks related to marriage and there are risks, but there are greater risks to being not married. So that shows marriage is not a bad deal. And as I said before, if marriage is such a bad deal for men, if it's so bad, why do 93% of men say they're willing to remarry their wives again if they had the chance?

Why do 65% of divorced men choose and go and get remarried? It's because they recognize maybe someone wasn't right for them, but marriage was still right for them. All right. So we're going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, we're going to have cross-examination. And Pearl, you'll have 20 minutes to drill Trent with questions, follow up, whatever you want to follow up on. And then Trent, you'll have 20 minutes. So if you're watching right now, please stick around, let us know how you think this debate is going in the live chat and we'll be right back. I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive21.com slash Matt. You go there right now or if you text strive to 66866,

we'll send you the link. It's 100% free and it's a course I've created to help men to give them the tools to overcome pornography. Usually men know that porn is wrong, they don't need me or you to convince them that it's wrong. What they need is a battle plan to get out. And so I've distilled all that I've learned over the last 15 or so years as I've been talking and writing on this topic into this one course.

Think of it as if you and I could have a coffee over the next 21 days and I would kind of guide you along this journey. That's basically what this is. It's incredibly well produced. We had a whole camera crew come and film this. And I think it'll be a really a real help to you. And it's also not an isolated course that you go through on your own because literally tens of thousands of men have now gone through this course.

And as you go through the different videos, there's comments from men all around the world encouraging each other, offering to be each other's accountability partners and things like that. Strive 21, that's strive21.com slash Matt, or as I say, text Strive to 66866 to get started today. You won't regret it. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's

useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. I use it, my family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music, including Mylofi. Hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries.

It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. The link is in the description below.

It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Yep. Say when. You're back.

G'day and welcome back to the debate. Before we jump into cross-examination, I want to invite you to consider becoming a local supporter at mattfradd.locals.com. When you do, you get a front for fun, a ton of free perks in return. I just had an almost three hour discussion with Jordan Peterson a couple of days ago. That's available right now over on Locals. Also, when you become an annual supporter, you get our free pints with Aquinas Bierstein. You get a ton of other things in return, but I don't have time to tell you about them.

So, matfrad.locals.com and a massive thanks to those of you who want to keep supporting the channel so we can keep bringing great guests on. Okay, so we are going to go into a time of 20 minute cross examine and I'm going to explain what it is for our viewers. Okay, so Pearl is going to begin and in cross examine she is free to lead the discussion however she wishes. She is welcome to interrupt Trent to redirect Trent however she pleases. This is her time so it's not considered rude if she does that and vice versa when when Trent does that. So let's see. Whenever you're ready, Pearl, you can begin with your 20 minutes. And if you'd like, I can let you know when you have three minutes left or something.

Okay, one second. No worries. Take your time. Do you think that women should be obedient to their husbands? Yeah, I think that they should be obedient to their husbands when their husbands give them a rational request or directive.

But I think that husbands and wives should lead each other to Christ and to the goodness of their family. So what do you define as rational? In accord with reason. So something that doesn't go against what reason would dictate. Can I have an example? So like I'm assuming crimes. Something that's rational or irrational.

Yeah, irrational. Yeah, if a husband says. Like obviously no crimes, right? Yeah, or if a husband says, you know, I want you to Lose a massive amount of weight for example that would put someone's if her husband wants you to do something to change your body That would put your health at risk. I would say that's irrational Okay, but a normal amount of weight would be fine I would say I would say I think it's fine for husbands and wives to want each other to be healthy But it's very quickly that if a husband or a wife

want each other to be healthy, but it's very quickly that if a husband or a wife asks for a person to be of a certain weight, that can easily be more out of a desire for vanity than for the other person's wellbeing. What about health? What about health? I think it's good for husbands and wives to want each other to be healthy.

No, but I'm asking the husband, why do you always bring it back to the husband? Because I'm asking about the wife. I didn't ask you about the husband. Because I'm saying- I'm saying for the husband, can he ask that his wife stays a certain weight is that Rational is rational for him to ask her to be healthy

But staying at a certain weight your entire life That's not necessarily gonna be healthy like saying oh, I want you to always be 120 pounds like hey I got pregnant. Oh, you're kind of getting past that now. I don't like that That's that would be irrational that would so that would he would not be allowed to do that under your thought? I think it would be insane if a man said that his wife needs to stay a certain. Why? Why?

Like what's wrong with men having standards? What's wrong with that? Pearl, you do realize that it's absolutely, like literally there was a joke in the office where BJ Novak says some supermodels lose weight when they're pregnant. That shows that he's just an insane chauvinistic person to demand that a wife stay at a certain weight,

even though as you get older, you naturally gain weight, and especially when you get pregnant, you gain at least nine pounds of weight. That would be insane to demand someone to stay at a certain weight. Women lose it all the time. I fail to see how any of this is relevant to marriage, by the way.

What I'm trying to understand is your mindset. So, why can't men have standards in marriage? Because if you're saying that men can't have standards in their own marriage, like this is the... I never said that. Well, you're saying it's irrational for a guy to demand his wife stay a certain way. Why? Why is that wrong?

To stay a certain way during their entire marriage? Why? Why is that wrong? Because I've seen women do it. Would you like me to answer the question? Go ahead. Okay, because Biologically, we our bodies change over time They'll naturally gain and lose weight in different circumstances and your worth as a spouse Whether you are a husband or a wife is not derived by your weight. That's just a shallow thing. Now, I think that both husbands and wives should encourage the other to encourage your job to be attractive. I think husbands and

wives should both maintain attractiveness. Why do you always like, why do you always have to bring it back? Because right now, why do you only focus on women right now? Because we're asking about the deal for men. So I'm looking at this from the man's point of view. What does the man get out of it? Is this a good deal? He can't even ask for an in shape wife? He can't even say 120 pounds? Can I answer the question? I'm asking.

He gets a woman who's promised to stay with him even though statistically he'll gain 30 or 40 pounds. And? Does she have the right? Women's job has far more of a job to be beautiful than men. You know, men's job is to protect and provide. So do women have a right to take? What is wrong with a man asking

that she saves a certain weight? Because it's shallow. It's fine to ask someone to be healthy, and it's fine to encourage your spouse to maintain attractiveness, not to just let yourself go. But that's the same for husbands and wives. Neither should just let themselves go. But at the same time, each one should be merciful knowing that time and age come for all of us.

The reason that the obesity, I've looked that up before, the reason that men are more overweight and then women is because you include it included you don't look at visceral fat So like when men are a high very high like muscle percentage They're still considered overweight more so than women so a more accurate way to look at that as visceral fat and then women have higher rates Of visceral fat than men. So actually women are more and if you look at extreme obesity women are more obese Yeah, so yeah, so I don't know why you're like kind of lying with that stat trying to act like Men are equally obese. They're not well men are still overweight, but that still doesn't show me none of that shows marriage Is a bad question men marry women that have had abortions should men marry women abortions should men marry women that have had abortions

I wouldn't say it's a deal-breaker should men marry women with STDs I wouldn't say here women have herpes should men marry them women with STDs? I wouldn't say. The corner of women have herpes, should men marry them? I'm going to answer. I would like to answer your question. I would say just as it is not a disqualifier for if a man facilitated an abortion and 90% of, so for every woman who chooses to get an abortion, 90% of the time the man is actively

or passively supporting it. So just as it's not a deal breaker for a woman. I'm asking for the future man. I'm not saying that he asked her to abort his, this is another man's kid. She's had an abortion. No, what I'm saying is, I'm applying an equal standard here. So I would say that it is not a deal breaker

for a man to marry a woman who's had an abortion, just like it's not a deal breaker for a woman to marry a man who had facilitated an abortion. Should men marry women that have slept with over 10 men? Should they marry someone who's slept with over 10 men? I would say that when you have more sexual partners, that's definitely, that's something that's concerning. That could be a red flag.

So you would say no? But that doesn't apply. I'm not going to say that someone is unmarriageable because of one particular trade about porn Okay, what women that have that have participated in porn should men marry women that have participated in porn? I would say that that's definitely a red flag, but it is not a necessarily it's not a deal breaker son I can I can answer the questions because you can keep asking questions and I'll never answer It just would be easier if I got a yes or no because you keep giving me these roundabout and I'm just like yes or no.

No, I'm giving you good answers. Okay, so I'd like to finish pornography. I would say it's not a deal breaker if a woman had participated in pornography. Much the same way it is not a deal breaker. Well, it's something to be very, very worried about. So I'll answer it this way. It's very hard for me to find anything that's a deal breaker for marriage,

except for maybe diagnosed severe mental illness, for example, or addiction to drugs, things like that. But that would apply to men and women. So when it comes to pornography, I would say it's very concerning if a woman had previously engaged in pornography, just like it is very concerning if a woman chooses to marry a man who's previously viewed pornography.

But this is my question, it's like, why can't men have standards? And this is what I've noticed from the trad community and like the conservatives, it's like the quality of women keeps going down and down and down. And we can't even definitively say, hey, maybe we shouldn't marry porn stars, maybe we shouldn't marry overweight women.

You know, it's like we constantly get rid of standards for men. No, I find the standards as long as- And we can't even, stars, maybe we shouldn't marry overweight women. You know, it's like we constantly get rid of standards for men. No, I find the standards as long as- And we can't even, no, no you're not because you're not even definitively saying you shouldn't marry a porn star. You would never in a million years tell your son to marry a porn star.

An active, currently working porn star? No, even a previous porn star. You said former. Even former, you would never. Come on, someone you loved. And this is why, this is why. You on, someone you loved. And this is why. You can keep talking or you can ask me a question. Because I was gonna say, I do believe in standards, Pearl.

I just believe they should be applied equally. So if women have a past in porn and that makes them unmarriageable, fine. Then we should just say any man who's looked at porn, don't marry him either. No, the equal equivalent. Is it okay for men to look at porn? You can ask that during your cross-exam.

The equal equivalent would be a man that's participated in porn. That would be the equal equivalent if you're really going to go apples to apples here. But what I'm asking is, okay, a quarter of women up to a third have an STD. Should men marry them? Should they marry them? Yeah. Just the same reasons would apply if you ask women should they marry men who have STDs? Because men have lots of STDs. And if it's okay to

marry them. But why is it what about the men? It's like the craziest thing. Because men and women are equal. Men and women are equal. It's the craziest thing. I don't think men and women are equal. Are they equal in value and dignity? Sorry, just real quick. You can ask questions in your cross-examination. Sure, that's fine. I'm not coming at this from a religious point of view. What I am saying is that you keep telling men to lower their standards, because you were saying, wife up these whores. 3% of women, you know, 100 years ago, men got a virgin.

They got a virgin, four plus kids. 3% of women are waiting till marriage nowadays. You're saying, wife them up anyway. Doesn't matter the risk, who cares? Do you have a question, Pearl? So yeah, my, I'm going to go back to STD is not a deal breaker. Yes or no? No, they're not. If they're not a deal breaker for men, they're not a deal breaker for women. Okay. On top of that porn, not a deal breaker. Having been involved in pornography. No, it's not a deal breaker, but it's something to be very concerned about.

The same as if a man had been behind the camera doing OnlyFans work or working at OnlyFans, but if he's truly repented, then people can really change and we should give them mercy, whether they're a man or a woman. People can change, so it doesn't mean they statistically do. And women that have made those decisions,

statistically, the grass, statistically, it's not a happy ending for most of them. So that's, the other question, why would you sign up, would you ever sign a business contract that someone's paid to leave? So me and you, me and you are gonna do business, and I get a bunch of money in your children if I leave, if you would sign that contract.

If you get my children, because maybe we're pairing our YouTube channels together, probably not gonna sell off my kids on that, but it's very common in business deals pearl where if you have a high-value Part business partner and you really want them to be a part of the venture You might include things like a buyout clause or severance pay That's not that uncommon to ameliorate risks or to encourage them to take part in the project Okay, so would you would you sign the contract or no? Okay, so would you sign the contract or no?

When I sign a contract? You've made it very vague. Where I'm paid to leave. Where you're paid to leave if you're my business partner. It depends how much and what risk. If you. Why is it, why can't you answer the question? Because your question is under defined and it can't be answered.

You've asked it in a very vague way so I can only give a vague answer and reply. Okay, me and you sign a business deal. And in that business deal. Can't even fathom and you sign a business deal and in that business deal And I and in that business deal I get your whole YouTube channel if I leave and I get your children Are you signing it? No, I'm not exactly that's the point No, you're not signing it because you and this is the thing they act like it's one-off instances And this is what this is what the academics tend to do

They'll say here's a study funded by this organization, or here's another study, and they want you to not believe what's in front of your eyes. Men are not signing up for marriage today. And you can say that marriage is a great deal for men, but men are naturally logical. They do what makes sense. 100 years ago, men were still men, same software. They married women in three months.

There's a reason it's gone up to three years. I would sign a contract where if you have to undergo, if you're undergoing significant risk, and the whole point of things that if a marriage divorces is that women undertake risks, if they come and then they give up their careers and they stay home and raise children, for example. The majority of women are not doing that.

The majority of women are not doing that statistically. Three out of four women are working, so that's not the majority. The point is, if they go and do that, and they take part in a marriage, you're going to be taking, you're undertaking risks when you're involved in marriage. Well, as I stated before,

women are twice as likely to end up in poverty after divorce than men. Yeah, because women are bad with money. Women are not, women have 80% of the world's debt, women have 80% of the world's debt, women are not good with money. And many men- As I showed in my opening statement,

men have the majority of debt. And many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many,

and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many,

and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, and many, debt, women are not great with money, and men earn more as well too. And the thing is, you're not addressing the suicide problem. Do you not think that's a problem? Of course suicide's a problem,

it's more of a problem for men who never marry. I'm asking in divorce, they're nine times more likely to commit suicide after a divorce. They're nine times more likely than a divorced woman. You're misreading the statistic. And in family court, if they find within five years, many men do commit, what do you think? You think it's just made up?

You think it's just fake? Everyone, all these men that are saying, my life, my life is ruined? Yes, let him answer it, go. No, because I've actually read the studies. And the problem is you're doing the comparison fallacy here. You're just picking, hey, if you get married, this bad thing can happen to you

or this bad thing can happen to you, and that's true. But if you choose to not get married, you can also have many bad things happen to you. You can grow up and have no social connections. You become a recluse and you're more likely to commit suicide. You're more likely just to not take care of yourself. And the statistics show that on average,

ever married men, including divorced men, live longer, are healthier, and rate their lives as happier than never married men. It's a statistical fact. Because women date happy men. So they- Women pick for these things. How do you know that?

Because I'm a woman. I'm a woman, I know what we pick for. We like tall, handsome, good looking men. Is every married man tall, handsome, and good looking? Not everylooking Not everybody's usually one of those things. He's usually one like he's usually they're successful or handsome or good It's what women don't marry homeless men off the street. There's a big difference between tall handsome successful And so my point is women tend to pick above average man We see this on dating apps women swipe swipe right 5% of the time. The number one way people are meeting under 30

is on dating apps. That's because on dating apps three times. You don't know what you're talking about. You're not even outdated. Like that's a big thing. I do, I do. Answer that then. Because on dating apps, Pearl,

the reason that women are so choosy is because there are three to four times as many men on dating apps than women. So men will be constantly swiping right. Women can be more choosy in that environment because there's just so many more men. But in real life, when you look at a 1993 study, another one by Taylor and,

another one by Taylor, Taylor done in 2011, I would like to finish, before Taylor, and Taylor's study in 2011 shows that men and women, when they get married, they tend to be within the same social range and attractiveness. So while for dating and hookups, you're correct, women on social media apps,

because there's so many men to pick from, go for the higher quality men. When it comes for marriage, people tend to marry within their own social and attractiveness value bracket. Right, but that doesn't disprove what I'm saying. Women pick a small percentage of men. No, that's not true because I'm talking about marriage. We're talking about marriage, not Tinder. But that's the number one way people are meeting under 30. And that's the thing, like a lot of you guys

are so out of touch. You don't see, like these studies take years to come out at some time. I can tell you firsthand what's going on because I actually talk to the people. No, I agree. It's done to try to meet your spouse on Tinder. That's done. Right, but that's what's happening. That's where the world is going. And you're encouraging men to clean up women's mess.

And I say men shouldn't have to do that. Men shouldn't have to sign a contract where women are paid to leave. I think it's so simple. If people are paid to do the wrong thing, why wouldn't have to sign a contract where women are paid to leave. I think it's so simple. If people are paid to do the wrong thing, why wouldn't they do it? Why would, I'm not saying every woman will, but every woman can. What woman is going to want to say,

gee, you know what would be great? Don't ask questions, let her go. Well, I'll go. Well, I'll answer it. Don't ask her questions. No, women aren't saying, gee, it would be so awesome if I married this guy and then got full custody of the kids So now I'm a single parent and I have to take care of these kids

Good thing he sends me four hundred and forty dollars a month to help with that That doesn't sound like a great deal to me four hundred and forty dollars over 18 years is over a hundred K That's life-changing money. That is life change and this is the thing. This is try raising children And this is the thing this is the other thing that. And this is the thing, this is the other thing that you don't think of, oh, this is the other thing. See, I'm not used to, I always have to write it down. You said that men don't fight for custody. This is the problem with men in statistics.

This is the problem when people just read studies and they're not actually in the field. You don't know why. You don't know why men aren't fighting. Because a lot of times, men are in the position, they cannot afford to fight for custody, and the lawyers will tell them not to do it because they spend 50,000. You know I interviewed one guy, $1.5 million in Texas, $1.5 million on a divorce, he's still doing it primary custody.

These cases are common and if you spent a day in family court, if you actually were in the field you would know. Okay so that's an anecdote and it also doesn't say anything about marriage because if a man hooks up with a woman or cohabits and she gets pregnant, he can have the same issue. So this is not unique to marriage. Well, yeah, but marriage puts them at a higher risk because they're on the hook for alimony as well. Alimony is only paid out in 8% of marriages.

I know, but what does a man get out of marriage that he doesn't get out of a live-in girlfriend? What benefit? Well, he doesn't, well, one benefit, he's not a 45-year-old guy saying, can I bring my girlfriend to the party? Who cares? One, he's not that. He's a mature, stable person.

What does he get out of it? He lives longer, he's healthier. No, what benefit does he get out of specifically signing that contract? What does he get? Women give children outside of marriage so that he doesn't get that. The women gain weight after marriage, he doesn't get that.

And all of the stats you're saying you're attributing to marriage, I would disagree. I would say that women tend to marry happy, successful men. That is just a correlative theory that you have, and that's not true, because if you just look around at men and when you do longitudinal studies that control for success See, that's not the case one longitudinal study found that after a man gets married and upon the birth of his first child He works 10 to 20 hours a week more than unmarried Spending men's money

The reason they're more successful. Right, because women love spending men's money. Of course he's got to work more. I mean, even car salesmen will tell you the final say is who? The woman, the wife. No, it's because now he's grown up, Pearl. He's grown up and he realizes life isn't just about him. He has to take care of other people. My wife's credit card spending is off the chain.

And that's the thing. Men have more credit card debt than women. I am in the field. They have more credit card debt than women. I am in the field. What expertise do you have in this? That's the thing, because when you actually interview men, they're like, oh, I'm going to be a lawyer.

I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a lawyer. I am in the field. I am in the field. That's the thing. That's the thing because when you actually interview the men that have gone through this you have a completely different perspective and that's the thing because you can make we just went through COVID. How many

studies did they have and experts that came out and said COVID you know you should take the shot. Oh sorry I don't want to YouTube you. But my entire point is you can make a study that says anything, but if you look at reality, if you look at reality, if you look at reality, you would never sign a contract that someone is paid to leave. And the quality, there are just not enough wives to go around. You have 40 seconds left. Feel free to ask him more questions. paid to leave and the quality there just not enough wives to go around. You have 40 seconds left. Feel free to ask him more questions. No, I think that's it. No problem. All right. We've got 20 minutes again. You're asking the questions.

You're responding to them. We'll try not to talk over each other just for the sake of those at home as best as we're able. Ready? Said go. Alrighty. It's kind of fun. It is fun. at home as best as we're able. Ready? Said go. All right. It's kind of fun. It is fun. I get addicted to it after a while. I was a little nervous, but it's kind of fun. Then you get right into it. It's just fun. Isn't it? Yeah. All righty. Um, we brought up something earlier about men. Do you, do you think men and women have equal basic value, like equal dignity? What do you mean by dignity? They have the same intrinsic goodness. Men and women are equal in their basic value. Their goodness as human beings.

Like in the I think that because it depends, right? It depends how like I think that men do more good in society than women. And I'm assuming that's like the tweet you're talking about. But- No, I'm just, I'm asking because earlier I said men and women are equal and you denied that. And I said, I agree that men and women are unequal in many ways, but surely like, for example,

do white and black people have equal dignity? Yeah, sure. Do men and women have equal dignity? Sure. Okay, good. That's really good to hear. All right. So you say marriage is a bad deal for men. For a marriage that does, so because a majority of marriages do not end in divorce,

so for the marriages, at least let's say this, for the marriages that don't end in divorce, are those bad deals for men? If the wife gained a significant amount of weight, I would say bad deal. Most men don a significant amount of weight, I would say bad deal. Most men don't want a fat wife, I would say. If the wife cheats, I would say bad deal. Most men don't want a cheating wife.

If the wife, if they're in a sexless marriage, I would say bad deal. Most men want, I think most men, if you said, hey guys, do you wanna get married? Your wife isn't gonna sleep with you after you have two children, they would say, oh you said, hey guys, do you wanna get married? Your wife isn't gonna sleep with you after you have two children. They would say, oh hell no. Oh hell no.

So. What would be the best, let's say a man says, I would like a long term sexual relationship with a woman. Okay. What would you say is the best relationship kind for him to obtain that? What do you mean by best? If a guy says to you, Pearl,

I would like a long term sexual relationship with a woman. What do you mean by best? If a guy says to you, Pearl, I would like a long-term sexual relationship with a woman, what kind of relationship should I pursue? Marriage, cohabitation, dating, which would be the best strategy? Well, it depends on the state you're in, because some states have different, different states have different laws.

Just in general. Would you say? Well, I don't, there's no general answer, because it would depend on the state. Why would it? Because what you're saying is that the harm. Like for example, in some.

Let me finish, I get to interrupt now and that's where it gets funny. Go ahead, go ahead. Because what you're saying is, ah, well it's not, even though the majority of marriages don't end in divorce, you still say those are a bad deal because women gain weight, even though men gain weight also, but. Sorry, what about the men though? Do men in long-term cohabiting relationships, do those women gain weight even though men gain weight also, but what about the men though do men in long-term cohabiting?

relationships to those women gain weight Not as much but the difference is it's easier to get out of so if a woman gains weight It's much easier to break up with a girlfriend than it is a wife Okay, so you're able to have higher standards How much how much weight can a woman gain in marriage before you consider her unmarriageable? Depends on the guy. I think it's unfair, more than like 20 pounds, 15 pounds.

Yeah. What are you doing ladies? Get on the treadmill. Wow. Yeah, you know, I think it's okay. And I think it's good for women. I think it is good for women if men have standards for us. But according to that Gordon-Larsen study,

cohabiting women gain, what was it? The study, the study is I've seen it's less. Those, yeah, less, but they still. I've seen around 10, I've seen 10. That's the study you're citing for 24 pounds gained. They gain 18 pounds in marriage. People, the problem is, if you're saying that it's a bad deal for men to be in a relationship where women gain weight

And if women gain weight in all relationships, aren't you really just saying women are a bad deal for men not marriage? No, no, I'm saying that women the differences in a long-term relationship You can say you need to change or or I'm going to go and women tend to act better when men have standards. Okay Do you just do you agree that married men? I'm going to go. And women tend to act better when men have standards. Okay. Do you agree that married men rate themselves, sorry, do married men live longer than unmarried men? Yeah, probably. Okay, so that's-

Because I think women tend to pick healthier men. I mean, we want, you know, I mean, why do you think women are throwing themselves at these like NBA player? We want so we want the good genes are most men who get married not NBA players No, but you can see when you look at the men that women are throwing themselves at you can see what women select for Okay So but you would agree though that even if that is correct

Even if it's correct that women choose men who are happier and healthier if a man chooses to get married Mm-hmm, then that would seem that he is Is or has made himself to be a happy healthy individual? Yeah, if you if you if you get successfully marries Can you say the question a man successfully marries a, does that mean he has become a happy and healthy individual? Not because of the marriage, but he was probably selected because he was that type of person. So he's made himself into that kind of a person.

He's disciplined himself. He's made himself at least somewhat successful, happy and healthy. Okay, good. So he becomes that. I wouldn't attribute it to marriage though. I would attribute it to the, like I think men are gonna do what they're gonna do. They're on a mission. On average though, does marriage take that away from men?

Their happiness and their health? I would say yes. I would say there are more men in unhappy marriages than happy. Out of the original hundred that got married. Do you have a, okay. So if you take, if you take, if you take the, I'm answering the question.

Go ahead, sure. You want. That's fine. So, you know, the study you're talking about 35%, I've heard that's a bit dishonest. I've heard it's more 50%. 45% of marriages end in divorce. The last one was from 2023.

I know it was a little off because of COVID, but I think if you include sexless marriages, women that belittle their husband, that's really common. Women that make fun of their husbands in public. Women that- You're taking it away from my main point. So you're claiming that these happy, healthy men who get married, the majority of them,

they lose their happiness. Do you have a study that shows that? Because let me finish. I have cited the General Social Survey, Gallup surveys, hundreds of thousands of people who are tracked, Harvard Adult Study, 80 years, that married men rate themselves as happier and healthier But you're attributing that to marriage I'm not I'm just saying what I'm saying is that even if marriage is negative in some ways

It doesn't take that away from them. You're making the claim that the majority of married men aren't happy So you have no study? Well, I'm saying that you can back it up when you look at 40%. Let's say 40% of marriages end in divorce, okay? 40%, now you have six left. A quarter of them are sexless, boom, that's over 50. That's not true. A quarter are not. There you go.

Women on average, and then on average, so at least half of the women gain 25 pounds. I'm gonna ask you another question again. So we do surveys, and we ask people if they're happy. And I've cited multiple studies, okay? Where hundreds of thousands of married men are asked. Let me finish. Are asked if they are happy.

And the majority, 80% to 90% say yes. Can you cite a study that shows that the majority of men in marriage say they're not happy? Well, you're saying in marriage, I'm including divorced. Sure. That's my point. No, no, but my original statement, my original statement was-

My original, and I'm gonna interrupt because it's my turn. My original question was for marriage, since the majority of marriages don't end in divorce, and if divorce is the only bad thing, then marriage is a good deal. So then setting that aside, you cannot show that married men are unhappy.

You have no data for that. But I also added in, I said if a woman gains weight, that's a bad deal. If a woman cheats, that's a bad deal. Do the men say it's not worth it? But do the men say it's not worth it to them? You asked what I would classify as a successful marriage. Or you asked, that was the, I made the premise.

I said, I said. The debate is not whether Pearl thinks marriage is a bad deal. If it was a good deal, you said I could make the premise. Yeah, but what. So I said a good deal is classified as a woman that stays in shape, Fs her husband, and stays married and is obedient. So if she's not having sex with her husband

and she's gaining weight. Who should determine? That's 60%, at least half of them are doing that. Who should we look to to determine the standard of whether marriage is a good, let me finish, whether marriage is a good deal, married men or Pearl Davis? I think you should look at men and what they're choosing

and they're not choosing marriage. Because if it was a good deal, it would be an easy sell. Good products get sold. Good products. Is exercise a good deal? Or is exercising a good deal? Exercising is a good deal, but I wouldn't say those are the same thing.

Because again, if women were benefiting men, like they were 100 years ago, if we look at 100 years ago, men signed up for marriage within three months. That's all it took. All right, here's my next question. If marriage is so bad, and's all it took. Now it's taken three years. Here's my next question. If marriage is so bad, including people who end in divorce. I didn't say all marriage is bad.

If in general marriage. I said out of 151 will fail. If it's more likely, if it's greater than not, that marriage, it will be bad. And if that's the case, why do 65% of divorce men get married again, even though they've already been through a marriage that's failed? If it's so bad, Pearl,

why do the majority of men get married again? Well, I would say, you know, people don't always make logical decisions when it comes to love. But my question would go back to, why aren't men signing up in general? Okay, so, no, so you're just, so anybody who just disagrees with your standard of marriage

are just being illogical? No. I again, I said a good deal, I clarified it in the beginning, I said good deal, doesn't gain weight, sleeps with her husband, stays married. I think that's the bare minimum. Why can't this be a good deal, doesn't gain weight, sleeps with her husband, stays married. I think that's the bare minimum. Why can't this be a good deal for marriage?

The married man says that he's happy. Because I don't think that happy, I think one happiness studies, how do they measure it? You literally ask the person if they're happy. People lie. Okay, so it's just a giant conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy.

Okay, so do you think most men who are married are unhappy? I think most men that sign up for marriage out of the original, not stay married, that sign up for marriage, 51 are unhappy with that original deal. And we can agree at least 40% divorce, right? Yeah, there's a 40%. Okay, so what percent of men rate themselves as happy actually? You don't get to ask that kind of questions. I get to ask them.

And as I said before, just because a marriage ends in divorce, it doesn't mean that person now thinks that marriage is a bad deal since the majority of men who get divorced choose to go back and get married anyways. I wanna go back to some of the different. Why don't the majority of men who get divorced choose to go back and get married anyways. I want to go back to some of the different. Why don't the majority of men sign up for marriage? You don't get to ask.

I'm going to go back here. Because if it was such a good deal, they'd sign up. Yeah, well, they would. Good products get sold. You know, you think Elon Musk is running out of his cars when they first came out anyways. I don't know about now, but I heard that truck was bad Let's see here because you you've brought up Eighty percent of women all right, you say PV that's crazy. Okay, what percent of men get HPV

Similar but they're only the sexually active ones and there's a higher percent of sexually active women Yeah, let me I guess I'll start these questions. Do do do men have a lot of STDs a Smaller not at the they're at a lower rate than women. I don't know that you can Google it CDC Okay, but still them it do the majority of men have STDs who are unmarried sexually active Well, if they're sexually active, but the minority, this is the thing, you guys don't know what's going on. Because you guys have been out of the game so long. The number one way that people are meeting is dating apps.

Women swipe right five, 10, up to 20% of the time. What does that mean? Okay. More, a minority of men can even sleep around. So when you guys are saying, men, men, stop sleeping around, a minority of men even even sleep around. So when you guys are saying men, men stop sleeping around, a minority of men even get the choice to do that. Do men cheat?

Yeah. Okay, so if a man cheats and he leaves his wife to be with another woman, is it fair that he should have to compensate her by paying for things like child support now that he's abandoned her? Is he going to be an active father? If a man, no. It's one thing, so I'm asking. No, I'm gonna ask the question again.

If a man. I'm clarifying. If a man is married to a woman, they have three kids, and he says, wow, I'd like to be married to this other lady instead that I had an affair with, and he abandons his wife and children, and his wife has been raising these kids, and now they're on their own Isn't it just that he should compensate them for putting them in that position by how many kids how old say three kids three six

And nine three six and nine and he completely abandoned them not even He tells the mom the wife you can have full custody the kids I want to go and get remarried Shouldn't he have to support them since he was an awful person and abandon them and put them in this position? You know what? Sorry. No, I don't believe in child support. I don't believe in alimony. I think it's equal. Women have fought. We have fought for equality. Wait, we have fought for equality. We got it. So now you get a job like everyone else. It's a sad situation, but overwhelmingly men aren't the ones doing that.

Women, there are far more deadbeat moms than deadbeat dads. Do you think you simp for men? No. So you don't call it simping for men and saying that if a woman does something bad, she should have to pay consequences for it. But if a man, no, I'm gonna finish. If a man abandons his family

because he wants to screw some other lady and puts them into poverty, you're saying he shouldn't have to spend a dime on that. Equality, baby, because women abandon their families all the time and they're not punished. They're rewarded. So I say equal rights, equal left. You guys fought for equality. Here it is. Then isn't the answer, shouldn't the answer be both that instead of saying, both men and women should be allowed to be awful people. Shouldn't we say men and women should both be held to higher standards? I would say, I know it depends what you mean

by higher standards, but what I would say is, I don't think we should have child support. I don't think we should have alimony. I think it's wrong. I don't think. So even if a man, a man, he just leaves, his wife has been a stay at home mom for 10 years, three kids, she has been out of the workplace,

is gonna have a difficult time finding a job. And I know personally, women that this has happened to, and he leaves and goes have sex with someone else. We're not talking about other women being bad. You're saying in that case, the man shouldn't be compelled to provide for the family he abandoned. Well, I would say for the same case

that if women cheat and leave for another husband, they shouldn't have alimony or child support either. I'm saying in both cases, we should not have alimony or child support. Let me ask you another question. Let's say you have a, let me ask you this. I don't believe in paying people to make wrong decisions.

I don't believe in that. All right, so if a woman, let's say you have a stay at home dad, successful woman has been out. She's boss. Can she be a lawyer? Sure. She's the boss girl lawyer turns into the she hulk when she needs to whatever. Yeah. Okay. And she's gonna make a lot of money. And then she leaves her husband and kids says, Hey, Frank, you can have the kids. I'm going to run off with this other lawyer at the office. And now he and the kids are in poverty. Do you think that she should have to pay child support

to them? Nope, I think he should get a job. Okay. And so should she. So you don't believe, do you, yeah, do you believe in marriage at all? I believe, what kind of marriage? That's the, I don't believe in marriage as it is today.

If we, if we tomorrow, if we tomorrow got rid of child support, got rid of alimony, got rid of all these incentives for bad decisions, fine. Then I would have no problem. But my issue is one, the quality of women is lower than ever before. The risk is higher and women are paid to leave. Pearl, what is marriage?

One person for a lifetime, and the woman submits to her husband and is an obedient for a lifetime. But I am not, well, and see, I guess my head goes in a couple directions because the other thing is, today it's nothing. Today, you said the average marriage is longer than seven years.

Let's say it's 12 years. The median length is 21 years. The average, let's say 21, that's still not a lifetime. And a quarter of divorces are gray divorces. So it happens when people are in their 50s and 60s. So that's the other thing about these stats. It doesn't predict who in the future gets divorced. It says today, so the and it doesn't include people

that are separated. I know couples in their 50s and 60s, they've been separated for years. They're still counted as married. So my issue again is marriage as it is today. And I just think you would never sign a contract that pays somebody to leave. I think it's super logical. If someone's paid to do the wrong thing, they're going to do it and what are women doing? They're leaving. I'm so shocked. If marriage is a lifelong union,

and let's say a woman does what you say she should do. Let's say- I don't say women should do anything. Well, you say women should be obedient to their husbands, right? If the woman gets married, but some women- If the woman gets married, should she stay home and raise the kids, Pearl? Well, it depends, and I should be alone. Should she stay home and raise the kids, Pearl? If she.

Well, it depends. And I can't give you a straight answer. Like I can't give you a straight answer. It depends, what does he want? Let's say he wants her to stay home and raise kids. Fine, then yeah, sure. And you think that that's a reasonable thing. So if a woman. The majority of women aren't though.

That's not the majority. And that's the thing that like. No, let me finish. So if a woman does that, then she takes a significant amount of risk, right? You know, she makes herself, does she take risk in choosing to become financially dependent on one person?

Yeah, she does, but women aren't choosing that. That's a funny thing. Women are having one to two children, they're in public school. So let's not act like these women are home, housewife and it up. These kids are in public school for eight hours a day You're right men are men and women. They are choosing marriage

both of them aren't But didn't you say men are in control of marriage. That's what you said earlier. Yeah, so really it's more they're not choosing to do it Right exactly and women aren't choosing because women are not wives today. Okay Exactly. And women aren't choosing because women are not wives today. Okay. I'm going to go man up and marry these whores. You got one minute left. Okay. Do you think do you think that men are marriageable who've looked at pornography? Yeah.

How about men who have helped like run the camera at OnlyFans? What percent of men do that? I'm asking you this is like come on I'm asking a question who have run the camera personally not not for me like run the camera at OnlyFans All right, we only have a few seconds though So I'm just gonna take it back to the main thing the final main question. Okay, okay Do just a yes or no do the majority 80 percent of men who are married say they are happy? Yes or no, they say it, but we don't know if they're telling the truth. All right. We are going to go into a time of Q&A and which will take questions from our local supporters and from super chatters.

and which will take questions from our local supporters and from super chatters. What do you all think? Since we have so many questions, would two minutes each be a good idea? Just so it can be less than that, but it might be a good idea just to keep it to that. All right. OK, so here's here's my first question. I'll ask you first, Pearl and then Trent, and you take up to two minutes. It doesn't have to be long.

Do your best job summarizing his position in a way that sounds convincing. Like I want to see that you've understood his position, and then I'm going to give you a chance to articulate her position to see if you've understood hers. You go first. Trent believes that men should just man up and marry these whores. That was a great steel man, Pearl. I don't don't know if that is that how he'd say it? No, I mean he said that they shouldn't disqualify women for having STDs. They shouldn't disqualify women for having abortions. I'm not asking you to argue against him. I'm asking you can you understand his position and say it?

Because it seems to me that if I can't articulate my opponent's position, that's a good sign that I haven't understood it. So I'm trying to see what's his position. I understand his position perfectly. He believes there are a bunch of studies that say that men are happier in marriage and marriage makes men happier and better people. How do you feel about that? And men should not disqualify for abortions, STDs and being a whore. Okay, so do you want to respond to is that a good summary or? No, of courses and being a whore. OK, I think do you want to respond to? Is that a good summary or no, of course, it's not a good summer.

Well, why don't you sum up her position as best as you can? Sure. Pearl thinks marriage is a bad deal because sometimes women gain 15 pounds in the 70 years that they're married and guys should be able to run for the hills, because that's the worst thing in the world. Is that basically it? No. OK. All right. Question here from Catholic Viking from over on locals. And Thursday, you want to throw up some super chats on the screen here. I love when he calls me boss, man. I feel so important.

Catholic Viking. So we'll start with Trent. Trent, is there a point in debating marriage outside the Catholic sacrament? And if so, how do you accomplish that when it can mean whatever that person defines it as feels like what is a woman type of question and we need to define marriage as the sacrament? You go first and then you'll have two minutes as well. Yeah. So marriage is something that God gave the human race. It was created with Adam and Eve, our first parents.

So marriage is not a uniquely Catholic thing. That's why when the government tries to change marriage, to make so-called same-sex marriage, that's wrong because the government can't change what marriage is any more than it can change what friendship or justice is. Marriage is a natural institution. Nearly every society on earth has discovered it for the good of men and women and the children that proceed from their unions. So marriage is a natural institution. The Catholic Church recognizes that if someone in Pacific Islands or in another country, if they enter into a monogamous, ideally lifelong, sexually exclusive union, then we call that marriage and we recognize it.

And it's better for societies that have marriage because this is better for the children that proceed from those unions than it is for anything else. All right. Can you repeat the question? I could if I wasn't desperately looking up all the questions while I asked that and have thereby forgotten.

I'm sorry. No, it's not your fault. Uh, he's, so this person's asking whether there's any point even debating marriage outside of the sacrament because, yeah, people define marriage however they want to. So if we're going to be debating marriage, shouldn't we figure out that we both agree on what it is before we debate it? He's like, how do you accomplish it when it can mean whatever person defines it?

Yeah, no, I think that's a problem I come to because people look at it from a religious point of view and I'm coming from a legal point of view. I would also add, just as a non-Catholic and a non-Christian can know what a woman is from reason alone, they can know what marriage is from reason alone. All right, I'll ask Pearl this question. Wait, but then why do they keep saying gay marriage? Like that's legal now.

Because people often don't act reasonably. Or they don't think well. You'd say it's unreasonable. Okay. Okay. This question is from Tony. He says, Pearl, do you see a difference between a woman who has no regret for current digressions versus one who has repented, that is from current porn and unrepentant versus repentant

and regretful? So, in other words, is there a difference between a woman who's screwed up in the past and doesn't regret it, doesn't repent of it? And then there are people who's screwed up in the past and doesn't regret it doesn't repent of it? And then there are people who have screwed up in the past with all my mistakes and when it comes for qual If I phrase the question as if my brother was to like date like if I was recommending my brother date someone I don't think it would matter. Yeah, I think that if you Really want what's best for a guy you want him to have high standards for his wife Trent you respond to that. Yeah, I think that people should choose to marry

The bet you know the best person for them and choose to marry someone Who has a good chance of being in a lifelong union, but not all of us? You know people make mistakes in their lives, but when it comes so for example men their lives. But when it comes, so for example, men, large, large majorities of men look at pornography and have sex outside of marriage, that harms their future chances in marriage, but not irreparably. A much tinier percentage of women do things like beyond only fans. And that also harms their chances in a future marriage, but not irreparably. I get a question because it seems like, and this is to you and I'll get a

question. Pearl seemed to be saying like, you're just out of touch. Like, you're old. Like, you don't understand what it's like today. So maybe that was true for you. Back in the late 90s or the early 2000s, that women were marriageable. They were better. But isn't it possible that you are out of touch

and that she's right just today? I mean, why don't you ask young men? And have you asked young men? Maybe they would agree with Pearl. Sure, and when you look at studies and you look at young men who have gotten married And who stay married they do say that meant that women are marriageable. What pearl is doing here is that if you create? So high of a standard that no woman can meet it. You've just created

You've been responding you've created an arbitrary standard and it's also sexist If you don't apply the same standards to men such as don't marry a man who is actively or passively Supported in abortion which is going to be the same percentage as women involved in abortions I'm saying to treat men and women equally in this regard and we do see that there's if What Pearl's doing is the reverse of a radical feminist who says oh men are terrible men are awful Look at all these awful terrible things that men do and say there's no good men out there. That's not true There's plenty of good men out there You just have an anti-male standard to exclude them and that's the same for People who try to do the same to say that marriage is bad because of women

I don't think it's crazy for men to ask for an in-shape woman that didn't have an abortion STD or debt I don't think that's crazy. Yeah, I don't know tattoos. I don't think that's crazy that's crazy. No tattoos. I don't think that's crazy. But I would say that to make to make it a deal breaker that you're going to pick any mistake a person makes much what you're doing is the same as a woman who says it's not crazy for me to say I want to marry a man who makes six figures and has a six pack that no I would say those are the same because you're saying for're saying. I would not say those are the same. Well, can a woman say she wants a guy who is in shape and has a good job? Fine.

Okay. So then we have to. There's no problem. Yeah, and then I would say that a man, so can a man be in shape if he's 15 pounds overweight? I would say in shape is the BMI scale. So, for the most part, in visceral fat, that's what you gotta look at.

Okay. Do you think most middle-aged guys are, you know, are muscley or they and visceral fat, that's what you gotta look at. So. Do you think most middle-aged guys are, you know, are muscley or they got a little fat on them? I think, again, we're going back to what do men get out of marriage? I don't think it's crazy for men to say, I don't want a woman that's had an STD, an abortion, or death.

Or tattoo. But real quick, I don't think you think it's crazy either, right? And by that logic, there would not be enough wives to go around. I would say that- In the next generation. It's unreasonable because if you applied the same standard and say for women, it's reasonable for women to not want a man who has an STD, or has looked at pornography, or has been involved in abortion procedures, then there wouldn't be any men later.

Both men and women aren't in great shape today. You're trying to make it sound like it's all women's fault. What I'm saying is just people's fault and we need each other. Can I ask you a question now? Trent, I thought brought up a good point earlier when he said, sure, OK, I'm willing to accept that women are in way worse state today than they may have been 50 years ago. But that's also true of dudes.

And so couldn't it just be the case that both men and women in some respects may be much worse than they were 50 years ago that men are more marriageable than women today. I would say that most men have jobs and most men are not sleeping around like that. I wouldn't say that porn is as detrimental to a marriage as you're saying if a man looks at violent pornography does that Women look at violent pornography more than that, is he still, is he marriageable? Women look at violent pornography more than men. No, I'm asking the question, do you think?

Women look at 50 Shades of Grey, all that stuff. That's the other thing, women look at pornography at a much higher rate than people really are willing to. Is it higher than men? I wouldn't say higher than men, but violent pornography women look at more on positive. Do you don't think men look at violent pornography more? Not as much as women, no, not violent. Do you have a study to back that up?

Not off the top of my head. Or is that just something Pearl made up? No, no, not off the top of my head. You can look it up. Just so this doesn't go off the rails, I'm gonna start taking some questions here. But you can look at 50 Shades of Grey. That was like one of the biggest grossing movies.

All right, so this question's for you. Eliezer Palmer, thank you so much for the super chat, says, I work with young adults daily at Catholic University. Pearl, can you give one argument that is not anecdotal or subjective as to why marriage is not the move for young people? I would say because not young, for women it's beneficial. For women, sure, but for men,

because women are paid to leave. Simple. You wanna respond? Well, I don't understand. Well, it wasn't the question about men, whether why men should not get married. Can you scroll back? No, it says why you says young people just stay on until they say young people. So I said for women, it's yeah. OK, so here's the this question is also for Trent Trent.

Why aren't young people getting married? I'll why that's a sociological question, so there's a lot of different elements to it. One, why aren't they getting married? The marriage rate has been decreasing. One reason I would say is because people fill their heads with anti-marriage propaganda. Like if you tell people over and over again,

half of all marriages fail, half of all marriages fail, when that's not true, the majority of marriages last a lifetime, they think that they're not gonna make it've, they've imbibed a cultural attitude that's anti-marriage. Also, frankly, so there's a lot of men back in the day, well, put it crudely, no one buys the cow if you can get the milk for free. So I mean, for men, most of the time, if they wanted to have a sexual encounter with a woman, they married a woman or they paid for a prostitute.

Now through the rise of online pornography, other elements like that, you have a lot of men who had a failure to launch. They're not getting jobs, they're not getting discipline, they're looking at porn every day, including violent porn. And so they're not becoming the men women need them to be for marriage. We also have difficult economic issues right now. People are delaying marriage to get more advanced degrees. Though I will say that if you're college educated,

you have one of the lowest risks of divorce. One thing I think I might be sympathetic to what Pearl is saying is it seems like many men, especially in the conservative kind of Christian movement, we're very comfortable criticizing men. You know, you're a failure to launch, you're a slob, get yourself in shape, but we seem less likely. Well, and, and, and. Can you scroll down just a touch? He's saying. Oh, sorry. I also, I think also, I want to ask you. And men and women. So I would

say that women, for example, men and women both think there's many things I want to pursue in my twenties and thirties before I get married married down and I would encourage both of them That is not a good strategy about a better strategy is to get Vocational technical or college education get stable employment and get married probably around in your mid 20s Are you willing to criticize women today? Yeah, a lot of women are a lot of women are overly picky. So they'll just as what Pearl is saying, you know, that they have standards, women have extremely high standards, saying that men have to get an exorbitantly high income,

they look at a relationship like, oh, he needs to have this certain height, or he needs to have, so just as what Pearl is saying, I would say that just as unreasonable for Pearl to say, married men have to demand a woman not gain 15 pounds in their marriage, it's unreasonable for women to say, I'm not gonna marry a guy unless he's six foot tall unless he makes six figures unless not Thursday rather what we should look for is is the person virtuous is the person someone?

Fat gluttony is it being gluttony not gluttony No people can be fat without being gluttonous and they can be gluttonous without being fat. They're not the same thing I scroll to another question Thursday? He does. All right. Okay, this person, let's see, Shawna Rentsch, thank you so much. Research shows marriage matters to kids with more resources and improved outcomes for kids. Healthy kids become healthy adults.

If you want suitable adults, shouldn't you make them in the environment proven to do that? Marriage, do you want suitable adults, shouldn't you make them in the environment proven to do that marriage? Do you want to go? I don't disagree with that if the laws aren't paying women to leave. And that's the problem. You're going to get the same outcomes we got last generation and the generation before that with every round of people that gets married and it's just going to be less and less. So you will not have that outcome until you switch the laws. If the laws were changed, how you would like them to be changed? Do you think marriage would then be a better deal for men?

Yeah, that's my whole point. And so what should be changed? There should be no alimony, no child support, 50-50 custody off the bat. All right. So if that was changed tomorrow, all of a sudden would you be, okay, yeah, fine, go get men. Fine. What do you think about that?

If that's the main point? Yeah, it's just the loss today, it's crazy. People have no idea how disadvantaged men are in the court system. So if that was changed today, yeah, fine. What I would say is we can always improve things like child custody cases, family court. Just because something can always be improved, it doesn't follow that it's so bad, we should have nothing to do with it now. Higher education can certainly be improved, it doesn't follow that it's so bad, we should have nothing to do with it now. Higher education can certainly be improved,

but people who get college degrees tend to be better off than people who don't. So it's still a smart move for people to go and get one. So just because something can be improved doesn't mean it's so bad, you shouldn't take part in it now. So for men, if you want to have a sexual relationship with a woman, which children can come from, you're much better off being married than being unmarried

because you still have all of these custody issues, but you come from the weaker position of being unmarried. And if you say, well, I'm just gonna stay away from women entirely, you risk growing up to be a never married man because women are the ones who create most of the social connections for men. Most of my friends are because my wife gets me my friends. That's how wives work a lot of the time.

But if you're a never married man, you risk growing to be old, reclusive, unhealthy, and more at risk of suicide. But again, the women don't want to get married. You've read no evidence for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If they polled, this is the book of numbers. So they polled millennial women and Gen Z women.

That's the one, yeah, the book of the. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, listen, listen. I read that book. It's like, wait, wait, wait. So I'm saying they polled women on So, I'm saying they pulled women on this and they did not rate men as high in their priority list. And if we just look, even outside of that, you look in the real world, women have the most choice to get married at 22. We're not picking it. All right. We've got a question here from Nathaniel, who's a local supporter. I'm laughing because I've got a gigantic green bottle and I realize how ridiculous that looks. But he says, for Pearl, how do you consider yourself Catholic

when you go against the church's teaching on the sanctity of marriage and the wrongness of adultery? Do you consider yourself Catholic? Yeah, Catholic. Do you accept all the things? Sorry. Do you think adultery is sinful? Yeah. Okay, good.

I just I don't think that men I think it is a bad deal if you are signing a contract that the other party is paid to leave. That's my opinion. Right. So your opinion isn't that marriage is bad. Your opinion is that given the current law. It's the current law and the quality of the women are so low that it is a bad deal. And I would say that what do, what is a better deal?

Having some extra money and being alone and miserable when your old years were possibly having less money but a greater chance of having a family children and a fulfilling life. Well, I wouldn't say those are the two choices because option C again is men committing suicide. That is or men being financially wrecked at 45 getting to see. I mean, think about never married men are more likely to be financially well off and suicidal. Think about that it's normal for men to see their kids every other weekend. That's normal. Men aren't picking this. They look at the field. They look at the field and they say this is too expensive and too hard of a fight. Does that happen for the majority of marriages? That happens to a significant enough to the majority that that happens to a significant

enough amount of marriages that it I would say it's too risky. If I had let's say I had a two out of 100 chance of being financially ruined and had my kids stolen from me. I wouldn't do it. I think that's what's the option as a faithful Catholic. If you think it's a bad deal for men to get married today, is it okay for a man to fornicate? Well, by that I mean sex outside of marriage. You still have custody issues. From the Catholic point of view now, but most people aren't religious. I'm saying from your point of view. As a Catholic,

do you believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong? I didn't come here to debate religion. That's fine. That's what I said when I came here. I'm not here to debate religion. I'm saying from your point of view, as a Catholic, do you believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong? But I didn't come here to debate religion. That's fine. And that's what I said when I came here. I'm not here to debate religion. I'm here to debate. Does a man who has sex with women, does a man who has sex with women risk creating children and being financially ruined?

Yeah. Okay, so what you're saying, it's not unique to marriage. You're just saying sex with women is a bad deal. No. Yeah, is sex with women a bad deal? Depends how it ends, I guess. So that's true for marriage. Depends how it ends.

Well, but I'm saying in sex, men can do things to protect themselves. So they can, you know, and I'm not advising this, I'm just saying there are options. Men can wear condoms, men can get vasectomies. Okay. Right? So I'm not saying they should, people get mad, I'm not saying they should,

but there are options for men to protect themselves. On the other hand- That's still not unique to marriage, because there's married men in use. I wanna get a similar question to you. But my only point is when the man signs the marriage contract, there's another layer of, there's another layer of legal issues that he goes through

we can put on the hook for alimony on top of that. Do unmarried men pay child support? Yeah, some of them do. Okay, so it sounds like your argument is not that marriage is a bad deal, it's sex is a bad deal. No, that's not my argument. My argument is that men, there's nothing men, from a legal point of view, get out of marriage

that they can't get out of a live-in girlfriend. Like, why does it even have to be with the state? Do when men, oh, they do get a legal benefit. We pre do we presume that the married husband is the father of the children. He gets the presumption of paternity. It depends on the state. That's pretty universal actually. Okay, go ahead. Okay. So he does have natural rights to his, does a married man have rights to his children? I'll tell you what the issue with that is. So, and the stats on this, people will dispute, but 5% to up, you know,

1% to a third of men are raising kids that aren't there. And again, you know, people dispute it because they'll, they'll, they'll say that the paternity test centers aren't, that's not a representative sample, but even if it's one out of 100, that's one too many. And so the issue you get without mandatory DNA testing is many men are raising kids that aren't theirs. In California, if over the age of two, he's assumed to have paternity,

he is still on the hook for child support for 10, 16 years, however old today. When is a man more at risk of paternity fraud? In marriage or outside of marriage? My point is that it's another layer of risk and there is no benefit. I need to wrap up because we've got so many questions here. I wanna respect the people who've been paying money here.

So this person says, Pearl, have your views affected your family history? Do your parents fit the statistics you mentioned? Where your mother would consider it good to divorce your father? Do you see your own future having marriage? So choose a question, I guess it's like three there. How did your views, now my parents are still married.

They've been married for 30 years. I know, I know. Good deal for your dad? Good deal for your dad? Yeah, good deal. Yeah, good deal. It was for him? But exceptions don't make the rule.

And I come from a very privileged background, I would say. Do you see future in your own, Good deal. Yeah, good deal. Yeah, good deal. It was for him, but exceptions don't make the rule and and I you know I come from a very like privileged background. I would say do you see future in your own? Do you see your marriage in your future? Do you want to get married one day? Yeah, if he wants to so mm-hmm, but I don't see it as New questions Thursday. Do you do you think if you marry a guy and you put on 15 or 20 pounds and like 20? I hope he should I hope he's fine. I hope he'd leave and then I would get on the treadmill.

Okay. And then I would I would I would get on the treadmill to get him back. Tony G said, Oh, that's the easiest problem to solve ladies. Why are we getting mad about that? Tony G says, completely in your control. Do you think husbands should promise to love their wives for richer or poorer in sickness and health till death do them part? Look at, I'm not, again, you're going back to the religious point of view.

No, that's not religious. That's just basic, what marriage should marriage be? Well, yeah, you know, and that's, yeah, that wasn't a religious question. Yeah, that was just in marriage. Do we promise for richer, poor and sickness and right? Fine. Yes. But women should also be obedient.

All right, guys, here's, I'm going to set a new rule and be more strict about it. No, I'm having fun. Good. I'm going to ask a question and whoever answers first gets two minutes and only two minutes and then the next person gets and then one minute to respond and I'm going to be unflinchingly rigid in this. Okay, so where are we at Thursday? Here's a question. So this is for Pearl and you'll have two minutes to answer. Pearl, do you think you yourself are unmarriageable? Do you think you yourself are a bad deal for men? And if not, then wouldn't it be more productive to encourage women to be those things?

Um, no, I don't think I'm unmarriageable, but I don't need it as a necessity. I don't, I don't mind like girlfriend long-term. That's fine The next question is though. Shouldn't you just encourage women to be like you? Since you're marriageable. No, I think there's I think there's better women you can learn from too. So I would yeah But why not spend your time? I guess this person's saying encouraging women to be the sorts of traits that you believe yourself to possess because I don't I Don't think that women will regardless,

based on what I've seen. Okay, Trent, you got a minute to respond. I believe that men and women are both capable of making change. And I think Pearl, especially if you go on to marriage and show people you can be hardworking, faithful and virtuous, I would encourage men and women to seek out a role model. I would encourage them not to think of marriage through the lens of the worst stories you hear

on YouTube and Reddit, but to look at marriage through the lens of role models you have in your own community of marriages that have worked. See what works for them, what they've done with communication strategies. In fact, when a survey of divorced people, uh, only 5% of them said that the marriage was unsalvageable. 95% said if things had been done differently, divorce would not have been needed. So I would say, yeah, learn from those who've made marriage work and you have a good chance. Next question is for Trent. And then you can respond to, uh, okay.

So was Michael Knowles in his debate with Pearl correct that a prenup always necessarily invalidates Catholic marriage? Is it wrong for Catholics to minimize the provisions and incentives for divorce already present in normal marriage law via prenup? Two minutes. I don't know what Michael said in the debate, so I can't comment directly on that. But I will say that prenuptial agreements are not in, they're not universally condemned in Catholicism. They can still be allowed. So for example, in some cases where you have a man, a Brady Brunch scenario, where you

have a man with children from a previous marriage, a woman with children from a previous marriage, you might use a prenuptial agreement to figure out other kinds of custody issues and family issues in a near right, you know, in a less common marriage situation like that. So that can be done. I would however strongly advise against that. Going into marriage thinking, well, I'm just gonna protect the life that I have

and treat my spouse as an accessory that can be removed easily when necessary. That is a attitude for a failed marriage, because that's not what marriage is. Marriage is about creating one life. So for example, people who have joint bank accounts, they're less likely to divorce than people who have separate bank accounts.

I have a question. All right, so you're done with it. Can I ask a question? Well, sure, but you got one minute, so go. Do you think if the man wants a prenup that his wife should obey him and sign it? If he wants a prenup, they're not married yet, so she's not under the marital obedience rule yet.

Okay, but if she wants to be married, should she obey him and sign it? She should be obedient to things that are within reason, and many prenuptial agreements would be unreasonable. This question is for Pearl. Pearl, why don't you come at this from a religious perspective? You claim to be Catholic.

Just so you know, I'm happy to leave out Catholic questions from now on if you don't want to address them. Because I think it doesn't apply to society at large, because I'm talking about what's going on in society, and I'm not trying to attack marriage from a religious point of view, I'm trying to attack the laws.

That's my issue. Then I actually agree, I'm fine talking about this outside of a religious context, because marriage is a human institution. It's created by God, but so is justice and other kinds of natural goods. So God created marriage, human beings. God made marriage like he made math and every culture has discovered it. And so it's up to cultures to refine it and to make it better

and to avoid things and make it worse. Purple Suit Man says, Pearl, aren't you a Catholic? How do you reconcile your faith with your position? Trent and Pearl, should your faith influence your decision to get married? Yes, I'm Catholic, but I still think the laws are unfavorable to men and I have seen Catholic women ruin men in divorce court. I've seen Christian women, Jewish women, Buddhist women. I've seen it across religions and I don't tend to see much of a difference.

You know, there's no Catholic women in divorce court. Many women believe one thing when they get married and then they believe another thing 20 years later. And I would say that that's the, as I mentioned earlier, excuse me, that's the anecdote fallacy and the comparison fallacy. Just because bad things happen to some people, it doesn't mean that that thing is bad

for a majority of people. And the comparison fallacy, just because there's bad things associated with one choice, that doesn't mean that that thing is bad for a majority of people and the comparison fallacy just because there's bad things Associated with one choice that doesn't mean that it's a bad deal because the other choice could be a worse deal bad things Statistically are more likely to happen to people who cohabit and can have these same things happen to them or men who just ignore women For the rest of their lives and become never married and die prematurely from suicide from unhealthy individuals. Would you consider priests that? Priests are.

Because by your logic, they would have a terrible life. Priests are at greater risk of having depression and other things like that, so greater care has to be taken with them, but not everybody, that's why only people who are called to priesthood should pursue it, whereas the majority of men aren't called to that,

they're probably called to marriage. Vinnie Cox says pearl as a woman who can I've been reading it from that local supporter pearl as a woman who campaigns for the general Disregarding of female prominence. What is to stop you from taking your own advice and being quiet finally? Where is your husband? Why are you so disagreeable abrasive and unpleasant while lamenting the very same traits in other women I'm actually quite polite so Yeah, and to stick up for pearl here. I think her position is that women should be agreeable to their husbands They might be disagreeable with people. They're not married to Okay, yeah, I'm actually pretty agreeable in real life Rod asks Trent if

It's a debate, you know. Rod asks, Trent, if women should be submissive to their husbands, and you agree to this, do you agree that men should be able to discipline their wives? I don't know what that means. From the outset, when I hear that, that sounds very pejorative, like you're treating your spouse like a child. I think that men, husbands and wives, should treat each other like people, like adult people.

And so if you have a disagreement, uh, you can set boundaries, you can communicate, you can discuss. But if you treat your spouse like a child, if you treat your spouse in a similar way, you treat a child, you probably have a dysfunctional relationship. Did you want to respond to that? Don't know. Sorry, could you repeat the question? The question was if Trent believes that women should be submissive to their

husbands, does he believe that husbands should be able to discipline their wives? Yeah, I think they should be able to. What does that look like? Um, well, could you think of an example of discipline that you would say, yeah, that that's, I think of the treadmill discipline them by running. You think husbands should be able to compel their wives to exercise on a treadmill or else what?

I guess there's no way, you know, I don't think they should like hit them or anything like that. Oh, that's good. But I do, but yeah, but I. Thank you. No, no, no, but I do think men should have some level of authority, so. I'd have to think about have some level of authority. So I'd have to think about it

It's a good question. Yeah to think about it. I appreciate the humility and saying you need to think about it So, let's see related locals questions from a supporter question for Pearl Where do religious monks and nuns in case that's an unfamiliar word? Fit in this worldview of yours Are they simply losers who have to leave the world? Or is this, so that's a good question, right? Because if you're right in saying that marriage is a bad deal for men,

then are these monks and nuns or monks even sacrificing? You know what I mean? I think they're fine. All right. Now I would say that's just not what people intuitively recognize. They recognize that when someone chooses to be celibate, for example, they give up a great good. People just naturally know that they're not like,

oh man, that priest really dodged the bullet. It's like, oh no, he's never going to marry for the rest of his life, not have sexual relations with a woman. And he does that for the benefit of the people of God. And there's other people, if you're not religious, you can do that. But we should recognize that most men are not called to such high levels of sacrifice. They're called to sacrifice for their families and marriage. Joe Ward asks, can I add one thing? Sure. I think it's actually very admirable. I think those seem like hard things to do. So I find admirable. Thank you. Joe Ward says, Hi Trent, how should we approach the subject of headship in our Catholic marriages? says, Hi Trent, how should we approach the subject of headship in our Catholic marriages?

Well, I think that it's important to understand that two people in a marriage, they're never, they're never going to be just, you know, the complete same person always having the same goals. I think it is important for one person to have some kind of a leadership position, but it doesn't follow that there's some kind of a king or a tyrant or a dictator. I think that there's oftentimes two extremes on here, which is the idea that men have no special leadership in marriage or men have some kind of absolute rule in marriage, and there's a long gradient in between those two positions. So I think that we have to reason through and look at what does the church teach, but also empirically, what kinds of communication styles work best, what kinds of ways of engaging one another work best.

I find honestly in marriage to have them be low conflict, women need to feel loved and men need to feel respected. There's actually a book related to this subject that when women, if you have a marriage where the woman feels loved and the man feels respected, you have a very high degree of chance that marriage will be successful and positive. And maybe I could ask you to how, how do you think a man should approach the subject of headship in their marriage? What does that mean?

You know, I think it's more that women should be obedient to their husbands in all things. So I, you know, I think you should come into marriage with that baseline respect and understanding. Do you agree with Trent though, so long as it's So, you know, I think you should come into marriage with that baseline respect and understanding. Do you agree with Trent, though, so long as it's rational? Like, presumably, if the man asked the woman to sin, you would disagree. Yeah, but the issue I get is a lot of people say that things are irrational that are not.

I would say, I think sometimes that's weaponized against men to make it, you know, if he gives me the tone I don't like, therefore, you're not men to make it, you know, if he gives me the tone I don't like therefore you're not submitting to God if you don't communicate with me in the correct way You're not submitting to God. I see a lot of women weaponize that but Yeah, just as husbands should correct their wives if they have a really bad idea that could hurt the marriage Wives have that same role because husbands sometimes get pretty bad ideas that can be harmful Yeah, but who who determines it the human the person with a rational brain in the marriage. Yes, so the men So I guess and so what's nice is in this debate we know which side is the more rational one, right

My size Respectfully no funds The only simp here is you pearl you simp for I think I think you said for women I think you let me get away with anything because you sent for them and like their attention I think you sent for women and you always pandered no I respect women no I think it's pandering to be honest go ahead Pearl says Sierra what do you enjoy most about being a woman I think that I mean you get so much opportunity being a woman so I would say that's what I enjoy is I think that life is nicer to women than to men. Okay. And you get to have kids I think that's cool. Okay what was that? What do I

like about being a man? What do you like about being a man, Trent? I, the thing I love about being a man is that when I go to sporting events, the line for the bathroom is really, really short. Oh, that's a good one. Oh, it's piece of cake, so easy. My wife always says it's the one time she's tempted to identify as a man

is more at the airport. I get it, I get it. The bathroom at the airport. I love being a father. All right, last question. Kevin says, if a woman is fat, loses weight, and becomes attractive, is she now marriageable? Does that mean new behavior matters? O.F. model is now chaste. Oh, only fans.

Model is now chaste and repentant. Plenty of men will be interested. Can I just say, I think I want you to both of you to clarify because sometimes this can be really general. You know, you asked the question like, well, what if someone in pornography repents? And I agree with you that it's not a deal breaker, but if it was my brother, I'd be like, you probably shouldn't marry this person. Does that make sense? It's the same as someone who's a drug addict who's clean. Like there's always, there's always, there's always chances for relapses. You're going to

have varying levels of risks with people that will end up in women. I would tell women to avoid that. I mean, that's one thing my dad told me, never date an alcoholic. Like that's just a problem. You don't want, I would say the same thing for men. You should never do. There's always going to be a gradient between red light, you know, he's for example, like there's women who want to marry guys on death row There's women, you know, they get obsessed like serial killers. That's a pretty big red flag right there Probably shouldn't do that. But in between that we're gonna have things that are varying degrees of levels of risk. Okay, do you And I don't even I only mentioned marry women who are serial killers either Okay, but what about like my point is there just aren't enough wives to go around?

They're just simply are not enough and I would say I know too many women who ask me and my wife Where can I find a good guy? I've never met a guy who has those work and I find a good one I mean tell them in their friend zone But that's exactly where most women have men in their friend zone. They can marry we choose not to I do agree with you That I do agree with you that one reason that women aren't married is that? for men and women, some men have very high standards when it comes to weight or superficial things like that, and women have very high standards for superficial things like, does he give me the

spark or not? So the women I know who are in the most successful relationships, they found a guy who's a little bit shorter than average, he has a good job, he's a loving, nice guy, and they've got a great marriage. But I agree with you that looking for the spark and friends owning people can be bad for women All right, let's move into our five-minute closing statements. So this has been an excellent exchange. I thank you guys both Pearl you'll begin with five minutes Trent will close with five minutes Neither of you will interrupt each other and then we will wrap up big. Thanks everyone for watching

Thank you pearl for flying all the way from England. Can I say that? Yeah, you can say that. I guess I'm not doxing you by saying the country of England. All right. Whenever you want to begin, I'll click the five minute timer. Give me one second. Okay, so I would say that objectively marriage is a bad deal in 2024. Out of 100 marriages, 51 will not work out. And the reason they will not work out is because half, a little less than half end in divorce. And the ones that you keep around enough will be sexless, enough the women will gain weight, and enough women are not obedient and serve their husbands that the majority of marriages simply will not work out. The average marriage or the average woman, the average woman is 170 pounds and five three.

One out of three women has had an abortion. One out of three women has an STD. There are simply not enough wives to go around. On top of that, the court system is very unfair to men. There is a reason that 90% of the time women get custody of children. And what Trent will say is that it's because men are not fighting for their children. That is not the case. Men want to fight, but it is simply too expensive for them to do so. Men want to be fathers and have wives but the problem is that women are not marriageable and the laws are stacked against them. Yeah that's it.

All right okay. The other issue we have is that women are paid to leave. You and I would never sign a contract where you are paid to leave. You and I would never sign a contract where you are paid to leave. It would be unreasonable. You would just simply never do it. And I think the issue we have is that, you know, men will come out and say, marry women that are not marriageable,

and it's simply men have too much to lose. There are false abuse allegations that happen. There are, children are stolen. There's alimony, child support. And unfortunately, we live in a society where women weaponize these laws against men. I would love to see marriage return, but until the laws are changed, it will not happen.

And for the time being, marriage is a bad deal for men. I would love to see marriage return, but until the laws are changed, it will not happen. And for the time being, marriage is a bad deal for men. I would love to see alimony eliminated, child support eliminated, and 50-50 custody off of the bat. All right. Thank you, Pearl, and thank you for coming. All right, Trent, whenever you're ready, you have five minutes. All right. All right.

Well, let me draw together the threads of this debate. So Pearl's job was to show that marriage is a bad deal for men in general, not to show that some men who marry end up miserable, that's not her job, because every choice in life includes miserable people. There's lots of miserable people who cohabit with a girlfriend. There's lots of miserable people who never marry

and are alone for the rest of their lives. Every choice has miserable people. Pearl's job was to show that men on average, it's a bad deal for them. And that always has to be compared to all of the other available choices, unless you commit the comparison fallacy. So Pearl, for example, say it's a bad deal for men because women are five three,", 170 pounds. Well, the average man, no, you can't talk now. Be obedient, quiet, okay. The average man is 5'9", and 200 pounds, so he ain't no winner either. Instead, marriage is that institution for both of them

to be able to grow together. The idea that it's not good to marry women because they're paid to leave, well, when you marry, especially when you marry a woman who stays home and raise your children, the man reaps the benefit of unpaid labor of that woman caring for these children and tending for the household. And in many cases you can have, you can have a quiet now, your boyfriend can help train you on that one before marriage. Uh, so that you can, uh,

I'll feel free to, I'll give you some more. That's fine That when it comes to the idea that a woman is it's a bad deal to marry someone because you might have to pay a Financial penalty if they leave well two economists in London have showed that in being married a man gets $100,000 worth of mental well-being every year from the support that his wife provides him. And so every choice you make has risks and rewards. If you're a man says, oh, I'm worried about losing my money there. What kind of man will you be if you have a cohabiting relationship is probably going to fail anyways, or you're alone and you have all of your money, but you have no one to share it with. You have no children to pass it on to.

What good is that? What good is the man who gains the whole world, but loses his soul in the process, as our Lord says? So the point is Pearl had to show that marriage is a bad deal for men. And look, she absolutely did not do that. When we look at men themselves, when we ask men, hundreds of thousands of men, was marriage a bad deal? They say no. They say that they're happy being married. All Pearl could do was accuse them of lying. When 65% of men who get divorced choose

to go get married again, Pearl says, oh well they just must be crazy. Are millions of men, are they crazy, delusional, insane liars? Or maybe is Pearl just promoting a pessimistic view of marriage because it's one that's very popular on YouTube and on her various media channels? Which one's the more likely option here? So how do we see Pearl argue? She used the anecdote fallacy, which I said before bad things to some people doesn't mean bad things for the majority of people. She used the comparison fallacy. Look at all of these risks in marriage, but never talks about the greater risks to your health,

your livelihood and your wealth when it comes to never marrying. Look, something really bad can happen when you walk down the street. But something really bad is more likely to happen if you never leave your house and you become a weird recluse. Look, I am not here saying every man needs to get married.

My boss, Chris Check, likes to say man was meant to live in the context of a vow. Maybe it's priesthood, maybe it's religious life. Maybe it's a private vow to use your life for the good of others, like Batman. But it's really bad for men to be aimless and float through life chasing worldly pleasures. That's why every society has seen men,

boys become men in marriage, primarily. That's what makes it turns a boy into a man. And look, if you marry after your teens, so marry in your early 20s, finish college or an educational program, you don't cohabit together before marriage, you attend church weekly and pray together and have a support group of friends and family, the odds of you getting divorced are low, maybe as low as 10 or 5% when you do these things. And speaking from a personal note, I can tell you I love being married, even when it's very hard.

You're gonna fight more than you've ever fought, but you also love more than you've ever loved. And so if you wanna learn more on this topic, I would recommend Brad Wilcock's book, Get Married. But I would also say, when it comes to being a man, don't forsake marriage because you're afraid. Men were made to cross the oceans in wooden ships. They were meant to fight an invading army

and fight until the last man standing. You as a man were made for greatness and taking risks for things that are good for society, men, women, and children. Not sitting around all day watching black and red pill YouTube videos and complaining about women. Okay, Trent, Pearl, I'm sure you've got a lot more to say,

but I want to thank you very much for coming in here, having a civil exchange. It was excellent. I really appreciate it. To everyone watching right now, thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much. Do us a favor and please consider becoming a supporter over at matfrad.locals.com. We'll put a link in the description below.

When you do, you can watch my almost three hour, very exciting, I think, interview with Jordan Peterson that we just had. It's only available available over on locals right now, matfrad.locals.com. When you become an annual supporter, you get things like our Pines with Aquinas Beer Stein, our quarterly newspaper, and the daily podcast that we only have over there as well, matfrad.locals.com. And very quickly, I apologize. Where can people learn about both of you, Pearl? You can go to my YouTube channel, Just Pearlie Things and the AudacityNetwork.com. Trent.

Councilor Trent, C-O-U-N-S-E-L. Trenthorn.com. My work is also available at Catholic.com. All right. Thanks so much.